>> guest: do you know what i mean? >> host: by pointing out the large mistakes, the colossal mistakes, of the scientific greats in history that they made, i think that it really inspires us to take risks using scientific methods and there are probably so many implications for today. in your own field, do you see in your field of astrophysics in theory that gets a lot of attention and momentum? and not sufficient questioning? do you see great people and theories in astrophysics where there is potentially a giant blunder that may be underrecognized? ..

>> keeping in mind all the

time it is possible this will turn out to be the blind alley in bbb take a different direction. >>host: thank you for writing your book brilliant blunders it is a great addition to the culture of science and allows us to learn lessons from history. it was great to talk to you dr. mario livio. >>guest: did you for having me

>>host: "governing security" the hidden origins of american security agencies" is the name of the book. the author the professor of political science at stanford, a mariano-florentino cuellar. professor, what is the federal security agency in does is still exist? it.

>>guest: that is a wonderful question i have the same question myself. to give context i first came across that they've been a very old u.s. beverage menu i had in my a hand clearly no one had taken in and out of the library for a couple of years covered with dust a and i saw that and i thought this is troubling because i think of myself as an expert of the ministry of lot and i had never heard of this agency. as investigated i found two important things that roosevelts takes a huge amount of political capital to get the legal authority to create the agency, fdr and had a core list of responsibilities that cut across domains so on the one hand we are involved with education policies, food safety, as social welfare, social security

expense and a division of biological weapons research and help the military prepare for emergencies and to it you little of these together you realize this was a rigid -- agency to protect americans from risk at home but also attack and from the possible dangers of war. with that agency is the structure from which evolves department of health education and welfare now today to primitive hhs. >>host: was it formed and was there a fight between congress and the president to establish its? >>guest: they fought long and hard over how could the president reorganize the executive branch if you look at the newspaper e of the day with the cartoons of

roosevelt to go against congress greater authority into the radio programs the question was does that have -- the power to reorganize government to make it more each patient, a streamlined and cost-effective if it was said giant step to making more like a dictator so they had a big fight at the same time congress is and the president bought over what we now call court packing and when roosevelt realized that was that going anywhere he backed down on that front the he did not back down from the authority of the federal government the first thing he did was created the federal security agency. there is a historical context not only gave authority to reorganize the government in general but to

create a ministry of health of the secretary of health and at the time congress said no and roosevelt had no limits of his authority but he had to justify evident when negative any peace based on monday save big could not created cabinet agency but that was the process that went from the early agency in to the department of paul. >>host: what is the picture on the cover? >>guest: the person for unemployment getting help from the fsa to find a new job a and a reminder that it had a critical juncture in history but roosevelt a sorry looking to what could

be for entanglement of war. and then to figure out what comes next what happens in the background there is already a fight in congress what will happen with these social welfare programs. other people write about how social security was not happening in the vacuum but he did a lot to move the agenda for word by treating the social security bureau bureau, mccready and the fda and what happened to those u.s. agencies when the government went to war? of the challenge for roosevelt was that everybody

felt great about the u.s. getting involved in a foreign entanglement there was strong isolationism and there were members of congress who put roosevelt between the rockets and the hard place because they knew he wanted to get the u.s. closer to war footing looking at the pacific he also knew he wanted to protect his social welfare programs and he had to choose whether to use the federal government to pass it and build up the defenses or prepare for war or protect the social welfare programs. he had a super agency to blur the distinction. >>host: there is also one

about president bush. whose idea is that? national commissions or university commissions to protect the country from terrorism in the borders more effectively the actual process to create a cabinet agency had forces that included members of congress and even the president had a big role in the process. and who did not originate in the white house what i found in the year the days after 9/11 understandably they

were focused on things to go effectively in and they suggested the super department to bring together the functions under one agency, they were a little skittish. we created a new white house office. we don't need a new department to be created but the groundswell of interest forced the president's hand and it was difficult to say no so at that point the rule shifted to be cautious in taking ownership of the situation along the lines of might make the most since. although the original idea was not the white house but the final design reflected very much. >>host: mariano-florentino cuellar is the author of

this book "governing security" the hidden origins of american security agencies" how much overlap is the creation of the super department of vhs over fsa create? >> it is ironic the creation of these agencies was to create a efficiency but one of the things the talk about in the book you have a very hard choice when you put together in the agency so you disunify every function. so plainly it might make sense to put it gse in the security agency but then split from the faa, and gestation all the other functions. with the fsa it was important that the fda be transferred from agriculture

to the new super agency. some of roosevelt's advisers felt the new structure created would be more amenable with the pharmaceutical industry yet of course, by separating the fda from the department of agriculture so how much does the fda do about farming? it doesn't make sense to give them the authority even that involves technical decisions. >>host: how did fianna become part of the vhs? it was not at all going there and there was a debate in the right thing to do was

have fema report directly to the president in the middle of a crisis but in the and the combination of white house decision making how big they wanted the department to be a and congressional decision making with the decision of jurisdiction and put it under dhs. when katrina hits new were linns the question of who is in charge is a difficult and complicated question. military, national guard, a government, president trying to figure out who gives updates. secretary of homeland security is a newly created position then you have fema. the voluminous reports written afterwardsspecors genere

groups often highlights a big disconnect between out clearly everything looked on paper but how poorly it worked on practice. that underscores two points one it is difficult to predict how this works. it has a life of its own. the other point is a very powerful question to protect ourselves with this security? it complicated vhs response has is agency been created first and foremost, of terrorism or one that has to be the responsibility credibility bought it from

the hurricane's but the way it was written to the communication with agency leaders in the early days that they were probably focus more than anything else on preventing a terrorist attack so there is a big and powerful question how broadly does it reach. >>host: are the super agency successful in your view? >>guest: i did not know when i started writing the book what will to the conclusion would be. you cannot get them to work very well. it is complicated. is risky to legislate on that scale but something quite different underscores the importance of people, those who try to do their best but also the people around the president, roosevelt and

bush approached by david goals in different ways in a different judgments to create the agency's and develop the resources. is fair to say the bush illustration was more challenging. they put a position to take this on a national crisis that was the issue before the agency. roosevelt did the creation of the agency in part to make it better prepared for war but he could have been more deliberate and his choices were more frankly though long-term view. i will come back how roosevelt tried to get congress to approve with the health challenges but the

vehicle to which those may be achieved there is documentary evidence showing to the rush to put the hero's sin and later wrote on a piece of paper he wanted it to be more gradual. it was an agency that was quite capable to protect its interest to execute very complicated legislative programs. it is wrong to assume but important to understand that complexity to make a very real. >>host: once an agency is created is a with us forever? >>guest: when i talk to my students i ask that question in many nod their heads but i eight-point now we have succeeded as the country to get rid of agencies.

the commerce commission, a civil aeronautics board, other agencies even within the fsa but it is true they have a long long life in many cases. so the right question is how much it meets the current needs how will it help us avoid another attack, what will it try to do? who will work their? is it ready in the future? ultimately the leaders said the agency come to take ownership of. >>host: what is your washington experience? >> who has the power to do

what, who controls the government, legislation, how does a legislature oversee the executive branch, international criminal law, security, how do we protect ourselves, for security, by a security weapons proliferation. a m. luckey i of a parallel life of academia and government. right out of law school i worked at the department of treasury for a couple of years. the part of the enforcement issues of national security and intelligence and law-enforcement. i had a chance to help the undersecretary manage these programs to look get illicit financial activity and later after i had been outside, i went back and worked with the obama abided transition