going on in afghanistan from the beginning partly caused by the various interventions. but then there's this separate story which is that every 40 years or so without fail, like clock work -- well, not quite like clockwork -- but about every 40 years some foreign global power has tried to come in and dominate the afghan scene and control it and use it for its own purposes. ..

>> modernization and change is in afghanistan that was more rapid is a and anywhere in this country. that period when the pendulum trying to swing back and forth between afghanistan and the outer world started to swing so fast and so far it finally clashed a and the country succumbed to a coup by the small, this group that was quickly followed by the soviet invasion i would

content from that day to is is we're still in the aftermath of the effects of the soviet invasion that pretty much destroyed the fabric of the country. the 6 million refugees the destruction of the villages, tearing apart of the tribal structure and the creation of this stage of war in which the old traditional afghan system for generating leadership gave way to a new system in that state of chaos if you had a gun and were good you would be important. that is aholt other class of that commuters who are commanders now called warlords and that it entered the fray when the soviets left they started to fight each other to tear the

city's apart then came the taliban now we are in the country and i think we have come in with the same idea of the soviets this is a primitive country and a lot of trouble if we can restore everything and produce material benefits for the people they will be grateful and come to our side. derek is more to it they are more interested in the material benefits but there is a question of the society the family structure a.m. day reconciliation of all the factors on the afghan seen. this taliban business is not separate within afghan society over the identity of afghanistan. how much time have i used? i can keep going?

>> i was so efficient i said almost everything i had to say. [laughter] so now i could go back into all of that hat greets lakes but i would just say that i went back to afghanistan in 2012 this last year and part of my mission was to help a group take trees to villages in to help plant them we didn't go to the war-torn areas because they were war-torn. [laughter] and we were attended but we went to my home and ancestral village and then went to some for their districts and i saw things in afghanistan that were interesting for me because what i saw was on the one hand aspects of the modern

world that were permeating to the furthest reaches several afghanistan. i actually went to central afghanistan with those bruges' used to be there we're destroyed by the taliban and from there we went to it and wanted to see something that someone told us that was a rock structure that was a couple of hours' drive so we were out in the middle of nowhere. i see little village and i see something glittering white. we look closer the and it is a solar panel. even in those distant places they'd know about solar panels and next to that

which you call those? a satellite dish. this has at least enough electricity to run at least one television set probably not more than one because it is expensive it will have that in a common area where people come together but that in itself is a creation of the outside world in you might say what knu get on a television set? programming from kabul and oh my goodness now there's so much coming out they have 20 tv stations. it is true it is a motley crew some of them are owned by the war lords so there is a certain element of control that way but at the same time some of these stations are putting out such

aggressive investigative news you would be proud of they go to the places where the suicide bombings take place and they broadcast video and that has the effect on public opinion if you just hear someplace was bombed you can manipulate the us been in a different way than if you see people dying. the other aspect is they have aggressively called to the carpet afghan officials that are involved with corruption in to bring up documents but that has stopped the correction but it is important that people in the villages dnc it but on the bare hands i will tell you i stayed with a relative of mine. someone i never met but closely tied to the village.

the bs second cousin or second cousin but very close in the afghan terms. [laughter] two days before i saw his wife it was not clear i was close enough to the family to be ignited to the inner circle then i will also report to you that after that the dinner shifted from just him and to me and the boy children to the family dinner than we were all together then. now you will say to yourselves the woman was kept in the back room but once we were all together i was saying i want to go there to do this if she will say you will not go there you will go to the village

to visit the shrine of our great ancestor. no. you will make time. there is nothing squelched about this woman. there is a structure that was characteristic of afghan society in the distant past -- past and it is still there the negotiation of the old afghanistan and the culture of the house side road this deeply mixed up with what will happen in going forward. i will stop there. [applause] >> you made my job so much easier because i am not a historian. i am just so fortunate to be able to speak come on behalf of the african people in

their recent high-tech the journey to right "lost decency" for the innocent people for the millions of people who have nothing to do with those decisions so my initial in is that to be a part of the dialogue to talk about the loss of decency and in that regard i will apologize because when i speak to groups because i sound judgmental talking about life it is difficult especially in today's environment was so many different opinions and extreme ideas not just the extremists fighting but those ideas and it is

amazing. so if they say who are you to tell us this? then go back to your own country if you don't like it. i am a great citizen of the united states not just an average citizen but i do things the average citizen would not do and i and the great asset i am an african-american but i.m. here to represent. that is what i tell them and they say please don't be judgmental. i was called to a library in the seed diego that was upset about what she knew of afghanistan so what do they want? really a great question i said what would you like? what you really want in

life? bread, and meals. i said that is exactly what the people of afghanistan want. how about one meal per day? that is not even available that is how politicians are where people are all suffering not just because a lack of money there is more many in this world than you can manchin. i am the baker. [laughter] i was in banking and in all aspects of it there is no lack of money on the cerebus but to take it away from people but how it is prioritized by the government some initiative was due talk about it open-end said dialogue to take peopleo is the

peaceful afghanistan i was privileged to grow up in but i would say it has had its own share of peaceful time and prosperity we call a prosperous not really developed but she really liked i wish we would go back to that environment one of the most peaceful spots around the world but during my upbringing from all over the world people would come enjoy afghanistan as a tour guide i would take them to the area is where they were considered a guest of the village and our father would

tell us this somebody said a prayer of somebody has been killed we would go there so that is the environment we're talking about i want to talk to people about the fact that afghanistan was never a corrupt nation it is called to that today but corruption was imported on those people of afghanistan especially the last 50 years in when people integrated and the refugees to the neighboring countries with the trade a and in the nation that is when the correction in a minute that is when it started i remember the place that i lived actually you be very well known who you were a few words of bribe taker

people were shaved but today it is all over as we know it that is the afghanistan and that we knew but what was the benefit and what did they do? i wish and pray there was a model that is the model to bring back hardy by people's minds and hearts? what gets the society so close to gather? what is this are you serious? we live in an area where we all live together in play together and played soccer and i would coach them my sister went to school with them we had no problem we could see our neighbor and

talk to them that is the society so what you see on tv that is not what it was. that is my mission to talk to people to save the models we using is the wrong model. when i went back after all these years i was the first after 9/11 we were hurting so bad there are other stories are there but just read my story of 9/11 how i lost my home and what happened in i was in washington at the time that i had a meeting with my manager and that day i cannot even imagine but however hurt to be an afghan

to know that those attacks on my own country was launched from my own native country so that is why i was on a mission to go back into something and to help the really wanted to help. i had a 10-point plan. very easy really was little skills and only high school education i could invent something but this data is not about me but the priorities but to gain the hearts and minds of people so when i went back and i saw what i saw i could not believe it it is not a lack of money you cannot buy people with money i walked out of the airport the 10 year-old said i want to shine your shoes i said no he said please let me do what i said i will give this

to you he said to come from america i said how did you know, he said they throw money so a 10 year-old to supports seven members of the family he did not wish to get the money i said to it as a gift to a four years sisters i gave him $20 but the point is people may not be educated but there is a difference that is why when the lady asked me what do they want to? they think that they're all criminals. they are not their innocent and has been victimized for years sandy ears. and there is a section in my

book that is exactly what happened. how is it possible for the world to allow these saudi arabia's national to go to another country? what happened? how was it possible to build another country? did we go to sleep? look at what it is doing to us and what is happening soon to talk about the great afghanistan with government's building high-school is there are some good things happening making progress in here

comes the neighbors in the rest is history but it is a tragedy what has happened to afghanistan and again my mission is to be able to talk about that to become the best citizen they can fall and afghans and should understand that to go

peaceful to start to become educated it is not going to happen. so i know that the top producers are weapons i know who has the bombs and the grenades but that is why they are not a solution and will not accomplish anything but as long as we have wars we will not have peace or stability or security. thank you. [applause] >> now it is time for q&a and i am robert, the moderator for today we have a lot of questions but we have such distinguished and knowledgeable people we will

have more of a conversation is so i hope you get involved and i will also be the guide that one of the things that is clear that what america id did not understand his starkly to see it have been over and over again will you start to talk about the role also you mentioned is your family and the family clan and the relationships that lead to the definition that could be uniquely afghan and you address that in the books and please join in. >> the first things that i talk about is the extent to which life in afghanistan is

shaped by networks of personal relationships and i will draw the contrast here we are familiar with the society there is a lot of impersonal institutions in rethink of getting a job to fill out the application butted afghanistan the age-old idea if you want to a job you talk to somebody who knows how to get you a job but that make a sound like corruption but remember the original afghanistan was so world with appointed officials to be but he knew each other in the area where they lived every betty was somebody in the family structure there was networks of relationships that you called for someone doing a favor for somebody not buy and sell i did this for you

if you will be but just building a relationship and over the course of time those extent over generations and those fathers who did great things may be a more important person but they have to secure that from their own great deeds there is the intricate social network of dos and don'ts that nobody could tell you what they are the afghans justin know which with social interaction those who do that gracefully gain prestige in those you do it awkwardly lose prestige. saw how people become leaders is a subtle and interpersonal interactive process and that is the grass roots that is how the village elders the verge and

even clerics people who want to be part of a lot of the village they are not appointed they just learn how work said after a while they have been so helpful they are just part of it then if there are disputes to be adjudicated and this is still the case for the men of the village gather to have a tribal council and discussed the matter criminal or disputes about lee and nobody is appointed the prestigious people sit closer to the center that system of finding leaders at the local level in the

original society recapitulates up the line and that is the way families negotiate with each other and even tribes and i will add just one other thing although this country is divided into many tribes and clans it is not the case they're always fighting each other. [laughter] they live in their separate areas faded not a fight all the time. sometimes but not all the time. >> of a quick point with in afghanistan there are some great leaders my local was one it was phenomenal the impact he had a and to people like that my father

who was just there helping everybody at any time so i do think the tribal society has the incredible number of leaders and there is a big gap not to have that with those so-called leaders for those who have no education and now have the support of their constituents suggest imagine there is a huge gap for the educated to come in to fill that gap so look who the leaders are. >> one other thing because of that system of leadership emerging, i think what is missed -- misunderstood is when you set up a process of

people who are identified he is not necessarily the leader he is not been ratified in the meeting the u.s. has set up now he is a title he is the president is he really a leader? may be but he has to operate in that whole other system as well. >> so we're now at a point where this foundation of understanding the culture and what makes the culture work so let's go for word how did the west not learn from the past and what lessons should we have learned and going for word casey that happening? >> i believe we as

denigrates opportunity those devastating attacks somebody did ask me what now? i said it is sad it is just like the lottery now can come out as whole in rehab an opportunity to rebuild that model because people were on the run like the net strong national army to build a like the past but instead of course, we went to the commanders here is a bag of many. so again it has by in this in bayreuth that it took the real leadership going back with the control of the

village so i think it was a huge mistake in that regard we did not understand those cultural aspects to build the infrastructure in the way to gain support of the public and radio address the needs of the few in the the mass is out, guess what happens? by going forward for me again, i hope there is a way to go back to rely on those tribal leaders to let them defend their area in real support not cash and structure to build their own area if we do not in there with not be peace in afghanistan i can assure you. >> i want to say that i

don't want to come off as saying the afghanistan will turn into a mess because stupid people make dumb mistakes because it was really hard to fix that and there was a lot of complications. the question of building a national army the question was first a and remains you do have an army now, they are paid but when the foreign forces leave it there is any direct -- and interruption of the pay, who is that there has to be a sense of leadership of the people who are in charge to enable the people to say these are our leaders queer the army of this country. that is the problem if we want to go back to 2002, anyone can give opinions but to be the major

thing the west did not do was to go in with small scale but distributed help and also did not some -- to something that is difficult but it did not cede control of the development moneys to the fbi is it is understandable to some extent to talk about technocrats and experts than they are worried that afghans will screw it up you have to allow for them to take charge of their own destiny because that is how you build that is what enables a generation of the afghans to cut into leadership and if you just to do with it and they hire some to just break rocks to build a major highway you have sidelined all those along the road if you have

just given afghanistan a highway. that does not help them you have to do in the way that they are participants in the development there are ways to do that with extreme detail but that is a general principle. >> it sounds like people say there is a solution if they are left to duet but the reality is whether the pakistan neece or other interests and the taliban so how do see those next period years and what role will the taliban we do they have a productive role possibly? >> if you only think of the u.s. presence in afghanistan as being about helping afghanistan i thank you are in trouble there is a

certain sense the u.s. of them the u.s. does not owe afghanistan afghans are not entitled to be fixed by the united states they have to fix their own country the u.s. is there because like all great powers of the past it does have a strategic interest and my thesis is it can best serve those by having these independents autonomous afghanistan friendly to the united states that would be perfect then they would have an ally strongly associated with and will not cut ties to be a muslim country that domination would hurt the u.s. interests but i do think it has to be there they will be swarming after

two days and there is a vacuum. >> very true. there are outside interest and there is questions how you control the neighbors and the lowe's get the latest example now looking as a true conspiracy where it is an attack on both sides with so blind that was drawn and i say are you serious? that is all of the problems? we will question who will belongs to? but that is the hands of the foreign one neighbor or another those are the distractions that are stopping so with the long term there has to be a

better strategy to address the need of the neighbors otherwise it would be extremely difficult. >> this is a program about afghanistan our speakers are tamim and atta. there are some wonderful personal things when 9/11 have been to that when he returned to afghanistan there is a great description of those drug officials one of the things that i found most memorable was the visit to your family's home village and you visit your father's grave but also when you went to the mosque there were taliban there so can

you describe that scene and what role might they have going forward? could you address that as well? >> i told because it that was the first order of the day so we left early morning it was snowing it was crisp and early morning with the first things i was told it is friday and it is prayer in eyes of what a wonderful opportunity to connect and then he said there will be taliban in there. i said could. i said i really want to talk to them. this will be my first opportunity ever to fight doubt.

-- to find out. they are spread out but they have family so on that day the mosque was full because they found out i was coming. not because of me but my brother who was such a great fighter for 10 years was well-known and we lost him three years ago to cancer in the united states but he was very well-known and he was a champion and i was a brother so they have respect so people outside lining up and i said i really want to meet with them which we did and i will tell you i could die find older person in the taliban group which was very, very sad they're 18 and 17 year-old with incredible features was long beards i said they average

about $50 per month and because they have no job take a look at this. this village's only 88 kilometers away from the capital and not one single school except from one gentleman. when i talk about priorities there could have been a school where these kids could have gone but the village is old almost like nothing has moved but the point was with of loss of opportunity to embed them into society so quickly to the next point there are different types of taliban

there are those that have no idea what it is they just get paid ended national pride is somehow attacked because there is foreign soldiers on there soil there should be brought in to be part of society they have the extremist in these are the people who walking from the borders or of chechnya or wherever it in their all in that area in pakistan but paid no that exists but as far as the place for the taliban in the future? absolutely they should be brought in a given a place to build their own society. >> we will address that

question when of the more powerful elements in your book is the school's and use them as a symbol so maybe you could tie that into your thoughts of what you don't think it's such a good thing? >> one thing to say about schools is we tend to to use the word school then taken that as a neutral good like medical care actually the taliban also has schools they have 30,000 of the schools along the border were evade teach jihadist ideology also they teach them how to do shoot guns so we put schools in areas where there is a conflict that is part of the conflict

also i just want everybody to be aware of that and one of the telling points of the post 9/11 reconstruction of afghanistan came in 2006 with 200 schools attacks birding in closing down and a traumatized people where they were there were all in the helmand province in those areas that were now well under control. in a way that children remain hostages to the of war of the older folks and that was a terrible thing in the other saying although many have been built and there are 2.2 million barrels in schools there is still a real crisis about schooling

and with girls' schooling one of the problems is the culture still has a conservative culture that has so much control it is able to restrict the education of girls of a certain age by a man so people say we are not against girls education but they have to be taught by women but the problem is the dark ages when they were not educated so there is a gap of women who can teach girls so women are teaching young girls and they themselves are steadying the next grade up as hard as they can to stay ahead of their students. this is my opinion but i went to kabul in my day there were a number of schools open in private and

government with a curriculum now people send their kids to private schools in they specialize with tech space it down -- technical education with the university of microsoft word or something like that. that kind of schooling when it replaces the schooling to learn literature, a geography, history, the history of your own country it adds and to the fragmentation so there has to be a commitment to rebuild the schools as a unifying force for i have 17 more things to say but i will stop there. >> there have been several questions about clarity to understand the role of islam in the afghan society and

also the role of sure rieti want to take that on? >> quickly we just enjoy aid a remarkable benefits of religion actually wasn't a factor after all but to collaborate and talk with respect but it really has taken a different form in to be honest i saw the activities of the neighbors trying to separate the sheep from the sunii and it was devastating to see that a

and they are funded by that i know there is some of time to talk about the other details of that but that is what is happening the outside influence is enormous and that was never a factor in the past but today brings people together that is the first thing that they look at. >> i will set aside sunii shia because that is not the important question to ask but was older afghanistan islam was everywhere it was a separate from daily life and afghans consider themselves very devout muslims in but not even say i of religious. what does that mean? been a good person is to be a muslim but it was a soft

is on mixted ways that people did not bother to differentiate and i think in the course of the wars of what happened this other hard n.h. doctrine is long that is preached by the international revolutionaries' cave into afghanistan and i believe some younger afghans are sympathetic to them partly because they have been so does george day are grasping for something this is a package to take the whole thing. i say forget about a city in shi'ah but conventional old-fashioned is on and up politicized jihadist islam. >> i do appreciate that because we were not pushed it is part of what we wanted

to do because it was embraced and actually you are right about the threat of what it exist on these people that have no real education no employe a major new jobs are no nothing and now associated and in the name of islam and nationality to tell people they are being threatened and their country is occupied. >> unfortunately we're getting near the end of the program but we are where we are today and the future is not clear but can you crave the last question about the role of women going forward?

what a kid you hope happens in the next cycle? >> i will just say that in that golden period have when you and i grabbed with a rapid development of liberation in the empowerment of women it was plain that the afghan women have powerful leadership within them and afghan society is very capable to adjust to a and accommodate so becomes a society where men and women have an equal place in life. the afghans can do it by a will echoed his refrain that the outsiders can spoil its. [laughter] >> well stated that is a real barrier now how to overcome that to open up but what hurts personally not

seeing a lot of support from the national leadership in support of the afghans and with those outside forces the international communities that have done a great job to encourage so woman but the leadership itself has rarely failed. >> go lean for word in the aftermath how you perceive that intervention are they similar occupiers? >> i went back to afghanistan twice right after the taliban was driven out in dip in 2002 everything i saw the

physical country was more destroyed did anything i had ever seen the yet i felt the social atmosphere was not changed at all it was the afghanistan i knew in 10 years later i feel like the country has changed more in the previous 38 wherever there was trouble now there is a skyscraper probably wedding palace were some rich person has a thousand guest for a wedding i feel there is some way that's the afghan soul could stand up to office but not knowledge. >> you are right to i did go in search of the answer to that question it as i refer

to it is about priorities in the review with 11 children to said she was trying to talk tough and they said it is not for us. what is the difference? it is for the benefit of the few not for the masses otherwise they are in need of help. >> the queue to the author of "games without rules" said director of the san francisco were richer -- writers' workshop and also he describes himself as a banker but is a writer now the author of "lost decency." both books are available

outside a and we do want to think our audience. they've the executive director and now this meeting of the commonwealth club of california is celebrating what they did 10 years of a blatant discussion is richer in to. [applause] -- adjourned [applause] [inaudible conversations]

>> host: pretty big is great to be here with you talking about the kennedys both of us having grown up catholic i think they have a particular resonance for us so i want to start off you are a supreme court scholar and presidential scholar how did you get interested in rows? >> guest: i was interested in iran in the kennedy family since i was a tight corner was for my mother took me and my brothers do downtown louisville kentucky and drove as downtown to the courthouse she was simply leave john to this new candidate on the scene

senator john f. kennedy. >> host: because he was catholic? >> i do he was also about her age so she was that new generation but i always point out she was not that active in the grass-roots politics and did not like to do drive downtown on the busy streets so it was the catholicism and his hands of looks. he was a good-looking man so schaede got their extra early and put us right in front of the podium so we would be sure to see him. >> you did a lot of your research at the jfk library after they opened a record and tell me about that because that gives you some new insights. >> this is solely based on her papers and open up in

the fall of 2006. i had been teaching at college and published a book on jacqueline kennedy mias students do i was interested in all things kennedy and i got an e-mail from a former student in she said did you see that rose kennedy's papers have just been opened? so i went right away to the article to devour it and i said this has to be my next project is between the supreme court scholarships. >> and there were letters from rose to her children that were quite scolding i enjoyed the fact that after john kennedy was in office telling him to shape up a little bit how he presented

himself so tell me about those letters. >> there were 250 archival boxes then remove it to another 50 of the photographs that were very never seen before and i was amazed at of letter writing from the time she was a young woman and in addition to use the 250 box is i came across on the internet private letters held in private collections that i could is gather some of those together as well because no one had them. there was half a dozen issue broke from the time she was a teenager to her childhood friends out she wanted the

suffragette -- suffragette

movement was going but she did not step into those roles it was very victorian. why is that? >> guest: raised in such a conservative household and catholicism into society she was a woman there was no way she would be trained to be the public office holder that her father was and what her sons would become but her life is filled with paradox that while she was not a feminist not beginning as a suffragette she pushed the boundaries as far she could within those parameters with her religion to become the focal spokesperson from the kennedy family whenever possible and was trained to do that by her father. she would go on the campaign trail when she was a teenager. so in some ways she would

push the envelope but not a suffragette or a feminist by any stretch of the imagination. >> host: before we talk about that we go back that you said about wellesley college what was important about her father not letting her go there? . .