the scraggly beard and those piercing eyes and the black beret that was tilted a little

bit and the star on his beret. he looked like a revolutionary and his message seemed to be to somebody who just looked at the t-shirts and looked at -- somebody who was for the people, power for for the people if everyone remembers that expression from the 70s. fast-forward to 2010. kevin and i had become friends because we both worked at the "associated press" and kevin and i both have a love for military affairs and military stories and weep reported extensively on the military and had written a on the military. one day kevin said to me you know, there was a mission back in 1967 in which the green berets went to bolivia to train bolivians to go hunt che guevara and i said yeah and now okay, but who is che guevara again? is he relevant? i was being a little sarcastic,

but he said no really why don't we just take a look at it and why do we do or due diligence to see what's been written about him and see what they did because over the years there have been so many rumors about che, what happened to che who he was, how he died and we decided that you know let's at least look at what had been written about the green berets world in the mission in 1967 in bolivia. so we started doing our tutelage and switch is reading books, going on line and just seeing what had been written. what we found was buried in dozens and dozens of books written about che and about castro and about politics. but every time the bolivia mission, che's olivia mission was mentioned the green berets were maybe a paragraph or two in every book.

there have been tremendous books written about che including john anderson spoke and a whole host of others. that again, it has always been kind of a footnote in those books and we decided at that point you know what, let's at least look at records, army records, go into the archives and see what exactly was their role. again with the rumors you know there were some people who believed that the green berets went in there and kill them. they believe that the cia was in bolivia and they actually went into the jungles and after che so let's separate the fact from fiction and that is what kevin and i did assess journalists really uncovering it. and so at that point, we went in and we looked at all the documents and records and started talking to some of the guys who are actually on the mission in 1967 and we quickly

discovered that they played a pivotal role but not like most people thought. they actually went there to bolivia, a small team and they took basically these bolivians who work off as a nose who were farmers and peasants. many had never even held a gun before and they actually trained them, turned turn them into this fighting unit that went into the jungles and hunted che and eventually captured him. at that point they realized we had a story, one that hadn't been told. as you know being in this store, historical figures there, their dozens of books about historical figures. how many books come out every year about lincoln and washington and teddy roosevelt and military leaders? the one thing you want to do as a journalist and as a writer has advanced that story, take it in

a different direction, take that small piece and show readers what really happened in a given time period and that is what kevin and i decided to do with this. we decided that we were going to drop we -- readers in bolivia in 1967. we weren't going to start the story with che on his motorcycle trip in 1952 going throughout latin america where he discovers horrific poverty and changes his course from being a doctor to a revolutionary. we weren't going to take you into the mountains where he is fighting alongside castro to overthrow batista. but we wanted to do was drop you in bolivia in 1967 and show you what bolivia was like, what the united states policy was like, why we feared che so much of that particular point and i think kevin you can fill us in from here. [applause] one thing before kevin starts,

any time anybody has a question please feel free to interrupt us. don't wait until the end. just pepper us with questions. >> we initially started this narrative, we wanted to look at che. we thought he might be an interesting way -- we were picking out people to drive the story and we thought che has to be one and that was a struggle because they're so much written about him. the che reading list i had about him was 15 books. the books that we had initially on the intelligence guys was three, two or three. and essentially what we did, and my wife i have to give her credit because she said why don't you just leave him out and focus on everybody else? what we realized was the story really was there. in the narrative that has been written but also in bolivia.

it's the che trail when you go to bolivia. che came to bolivia to overthrow the government and its his trail. none of the bolivians get the credit. they aren't a part of it but that struck us initially because obviously i hope you read the book as you learn more about the mission didn't go so well. he really wasn't like the legend had him, the coverage if you read the news clippings at the time really had else admin to the super guerilla with a 500 man army and he was poised to take over all of olivia and in fact it just really wasn't the case. what we found was the more we focused on the legend, in 1967 what people believe he was doing and less about was doing the better it became. it showed the urgency a lot of the main characters you will meet as we go through this a

little bit, you can understand why when they get to bolivia they are legitimately scared in what che guevara is going to do there and really what made him such a threat to american policymakers and bolivians at the time was one it is his charisma. he has a certain charisma about him and the fact that urban outfitters has t-shirts to this day that people still buy. i have a buddy of mine who has a che guevara t-shirt on. i said you know anything about che? at that time i knew very little about him. i knew a thumbnail to bed i knew who he was and he said no man he just looks cool. so it's undeniable that there is a certain sizzle to him. what he was trying to do when he got to bolivia is pretty simple. he wanted to create 1000 vietnam spirit at the time the united states was involved in vietnam war and his goal was we can do this in southeast asia and we

can sure as heck do it in latin america as well and we are going to start in bolivia because it's right in the middle of the neighborhood and we are going to export this thing. that was when he showed up in bolivia that was what he was trying to do. so what we try to do is tap into that great as far as the cia was concerned and american policymaking is concerned and surely the presidents of bolivia he was not only going to do that to do it well and it was going to be a bit problem. so as you read the book you have to take the assumption that not only is he going to do this but he is also doing a very good job of it. what we found what was really funny is when you read -- do we have reporters so we understand how many times you hear things and things come out. i'm sure you all call it the boston bombing, right? that was it textbook modern day breaking news story.

obviously and 67 a slower but you have this idea of a lot of misinformation. i'm going to have mitch come up here and talk about pappy shelby leads the green berets. when they bring them into the office and say we are sending it down with the training team to help the bolivians he is thinking great. i won't spoil it too much but i'm a veteran and i'm getting towards the end here. we have to take on this guy who may or may not be che guevara and he has how many guerrillas? so that is sort of what they were facing. [applause] >> heaven raises a great point, a couple of things. one is that this is really the untold story of some of these people who were involved in this mission who haven't gotten any credit in history and one of our characters is pappy shelton. pappy shelton was the leader of the green beret unit that went down to bolivia to train the

bolivians soldiers and there were 650 of them. they had to do this over 19 week math. imagine you go down there and you are dealing with mostly people who can't read or write, haven't handled the gun and you're trying to teach them the intricacies of war and especially counterinsurgency. it was a very difficult mission. pappy shelton was up for it. this was the guy who was worn in mississippi. he grew up on a farm and picked cotton, did a lot of different jobs through his life. he was as tough as nails and he joined the military when he was 18 years old. he joined as a private and went to korea and saw action right away. he was wounded three times, won the silver star. he came back and decided you know i love the military. i'm going to make this my career. the only time he left the military was just before he got

married. he decided he was going to try farming again. the military had a policy that you can leave the military for 90 days and return, if you return within 90 days he would get your previous rank that after 90 days you would go back to being a private and at the time he was a sergeant. on the 87th day he returned because farming in mississippi was too hard and he loved the army life and he missed it. so he decided since he was going to make it a career he was going to do more than that, he wanted to learn as much as he possibly could. at 28 years old to cut off age for becoming an officer, he applied for asp -- officer candidate school and he was accepted. most of the people in this class were early 20s and he was the old man so to speak so that is how he got his nickname pappy. from there he worked his way up,

his commission to second lieutenant, first lieutenant but that's not enough. he wants to join the green berets and he does and he deploys to laos in 1962. he comes back and still wants to stay in the military even though he has five kids and his wife really wants him to go back to tennessee and live there and leave the military life behind. he decides well if i'm going to stay in the military a little bit longer going to learn how to speak spanish which he did and he went under this intense training and learned how to speak spanish fluently and then he was deployed to the dominican republic and later, this was his last mission. when used in panama he gets called into the office and his commander tells him look, i know you're getting ready to leave the military but this is really an important mission and we are worried che guevara may be down there. we need to train the bolivians. there have been several ambushes

down there. the bolivians have been routed. they have been taken prisoner and they have been killed. we need to do something because we are afraid that this is going to spread. bolivia was in danger of being overthrown but here was the catch. he could go down there and he could train the bolivians but he was ordered not to go in the field. that was critical because there was an area of operations, a red zone for the guerrillaguerrilla s would operate and he was told he cannot go there. you have to stay out. we do not want americans being killed there. we are to vietnam. we don't want to be into war in our own hemisphere. we don't want another cuba. we just want you to train there. the pappy understood that. it was a little tough being a soldier because he is seeing combat. he knew what his men could do but they had handcuffs on them. they were only to go down there to train the men and not fight.

so now you are stuck, right? he trained the bolivians but you want to get somebody out to actually find out what's going on so the cia cooks up this idea that they are going to hire two cubans exiles to go down there and represent the cia. they are not american so they get around the loophole and they send two gentlemen down there. the one we focused on a lot was the gentleman named felix rodriguez who lives here in miami. we interviewed him here and he is the -- what he learned quickly with felix was that it takes a gorilla to catch a gorilla and so he had spent a lot of time on the opposite side. he had taken part -- though he was one of the advance teams in the bay of pigs. after that he was part of all the other things going on in and out of miami here anti-castro

but what i found most interesting about felix was he had this intimate knowledge of what it took to be a guerilla. he knew this dear stereotypical things. most are pack rats and they carry everything. when he gets to bolivia he is good at making friends with the bolivian intelligence services and handsets getting in with them and reviews their intelligence. he is able to put together a profile of all the guerrillas with che and he finds out there's a particular one that goes by the name of talk of who he is identified as the main guy he wants to get to kiss paco is a student who was told by the communists the bolivian communist party we will send you to school in havana or moscow and when he gets to the school they handed him a gun and they are like all right let's hit it. you are a gorilla now so felix decides this is my guy. if we catch this guy i think i

can talk to him. i'm not going to give away the whole book but one paco services felix goes in holland to make sure he doesn't get executed which he almost does. paco ends up being an important player. he is the final piece in the ministry and what helps is that paco has a photogenic emery so he knows everything. he can remember everything and he lays out the soap opera that's been going on in these camps and how che has had trouble with the bolivian communist and some of the other guerrillas in some of them deserting but most of all he puts together exactly how the guerrillas moved so the next time there's an ambush and they catch them they are able to figure out exactly where che is. that leads them to an them to a man from and the rangers. after 19 weeks of training the rangers are ready. now they know where che is sent the gentleman you were talking about, the officer, a guy named gary.

who was leaving this company. they arrive on sugar trucks and mitch and i interviewed him and i will tell you a bit about him because he is a new dude as well. cbs, -- [inaudible] all the interrogation process came out to be very useful. >> are you talking about the confession for paco? absolutely. yes, he sang like a canary. >> one of the things that maybe you don't want to talk about it or maybe we should, whatever you say is felix previously had been in africa and che had been in africa and che was able to run away.

>> actually felix wasn't in africa but the other cia agent down that gustavo reloville was in africa and they were chasing him. again part of the problem was our intelligence. when we think of the cia and the way her intelligence works now we know where everyone is moving. we can monitor people by tapping into their phones. we have drums. we know where everybody is at any moment, which is partly how we were able to track bin laden. it's a long time but that was one of the ways. back then our intelligence especially when it came to che was pretty poor. we just didn't have the contacts so in 1965 when che, when they find out he is in the republic of congo we know in hindsight, but in 1965 we were sure that he was actually there. in fact some of the documents that we look at that the cia

would write these reports once a week, they basically said che was dead. they believed he had died in the dominican republic in 1965 with the trujillo uprising. they thought he was dead somewhere in the dominican republic. they were sure and that was part of the failure of our intelligence at the time. we just didn't have that network going but you're absolutely right. we thought che was in the congo which it turned out he was and we were tracking him. [inaudible] they were transported to the republic of congo for chasing che. >> absolutely but again they warned 100% sure. they believe che was there and later pictures surfaced of che

in the congo but at that particular time in 1965 they weren't 100% sure and that was part of the failure of the intelligence at the time. so in 1967 when they believed che might be an bolivians alight there was really disagreement chained the cia and the state department. they produce reports that said is che still alive? their answer, we are not sure. that is in the book so yeah the united states was very concerned about che in part because he went from being someone who proselytized, someone who preached revolution to somebody who is exporting revolution and that was the real danger in 1965 in the congo and later in bolivia. he was actually taking action on some of his theories. the one theory being that you could take a small group of men, place them in arra a rural area and you can overthrow an

established government if he just had the focus to do it and that was one of his theories. but getting back to gary. you are absolutely right. gary. is one of the characters in the book and he was the leader, one of the leaders of a ranger company. we focused on gary. because gary. captured che so we told the story of the bolivian military through his eyes. he came from a long history of military people and his family. this dam father was at believe that major general. he was a diplomat and gary prado wanted to impress his father and that is why he went into the military. when the first attacks happened the bolivian soldiers were ambushed and they had no idea who is behind ambush gary prado volunteered. in fact there was a dinner with the president of bolivia and he

goes to the dinner because in bolivia at the time there were 200 families that were basically well-connected and they all knew each other and they ran the country. he was at dinner with the president and gary prado had some training in counterinsurgency. he was at board to look and panama and at the dinner they start discussing the ambushes and the soldiers who were killed prado was really angry. he believed at the time that the tactics the bolivians were using just wouldn't work. the military was in training. they needed to be trained in counterinsurgency and not in traditional military tactics where you have outlined and their rear and short battling, think world war ii where they a frontline is in the rear. this is different. this is a guerrilla war so at this dinner party he approaches the subject and says look what we are doing is wrong.

he slams his fist on the table and says what we are we are doing is wrong. we need to train our men in counterinsurgency and i want to be part of it. even though he knew the president, it would be going to dinner with the head of the company or the president of the united states and slamming your fist know mr. president you are doing is wrong. just wasn't heard of so he thought his career was over. but a few days later he heard he was actually part of the ranger battalion that was being created i can going back to the training , there were 19 weeks of this intense training, things that you know our soldiers would do in boot camp but you know our soldiers have the strength. they didn't have that. they didn't even have that body strength to perform some of the basic functions because of the

food. when the green berets go down that they have to change their diet. they have to change their sanitary habits so it's not just about learning how to shoot guns. it's about learning how to be a soldier and what prado does for her book is he shows you. again he's really an untold person in the che chapter because everything written about prado has been, well maybe he played a role in che's death or he's barely mentioned at all. from interviewing him and looking at the documents and talking to the team we wanted to bring his role to light because he is truly a fascinating character. >> basically 1967. it's a good story but alone it's not enough. i argue that and this is part of the pitch mentioned in the beginning when i broke the story up. why does it matter now? why should we care about what

kathy shelton was able to do in 1967? arguably is one of the first successes of the green berets and you have to remember when che was in bolivia the green berets were fairly new. they warned a of branch. you didn't join the military, you went in and did a little bit but officers were trying to get out of the green berets wants a copy or, the special forces because they could advance. the guys that fit the guys is taken too long were told you have to get back to back to the regular army as soon as you can so the fact that this is the green berets as well. what they did in bolivia is what they have done in colombia, the guys out of fort brag what they have done in iraq, what they have done in afghanistan what they have been in the philippines so in some ways we are getting to see the green berets do exactly what they do best which is working by, within through indigenous soldiers. in some cases iraq in some cases

afghanistan to carry out american policy. to me being someone who has spent a lot of time covering and working with them and writing about them i was fascinated by this aspect. this was really, there are statues around fort reagan i was up there last month. this green berets rights apart in the book. he said, we look at all the statues at fort bragg and it's a shame that kathy shelton is not there. they look at this mission as one of their first touch-points that they look back and say this is success. this is what it's supposed to look like. it has a legacy to it but honestly it pretty historic. we try to write it like a thriller, a good james bond summer history books so if you

are looking for an analysis on politics. if you are looking for a good look at government and what he wrong with policy you might want some other book. this book if you want a page-turner that gets you with the characters and get to in bolivia in 1967 and went to through it and it kind of a fast pace i think you guys will like it. if there any questions now but thank you all for coming out. let's get some questions now. [applause] >> i've read macho's book after he spent 30 years in jails and there were three people that castro feared besides himself. one of them was -- who disappeared on a plane trip that never landed anywhere. the second was --

arrested because castor did have the guts to do it himself in the third one was che guevara who is out of control. what i understood from the book he was clear in saying he basically turned him over and sent him to bolivia to his death. actually tipping off the american cia that you know basically where he was and what he was doing. have you run across any of that to confirm what mottoes wrote? >> knowing knowing that make it a little background. right now i'm working on other book that will be published next year it's about william morgan said william morgan was an american who went to cuba and fight with the second front. the research i have had to do for not only che but also for this new book that is coming out about william morgan which really touches on a relationship with castro and che and morgan and the leaders of the second

front and the conflicts with the 26th of july movement. there is -- historians can disagree about a lot of things but reading the documents and talking to the people who were there, there is no evidence that castro sent che to his death. they were as close as brothers. there were certain ties that are forged in combat and you have to remember that when castro lands in 1956 there were almost wiped out by batista's man and then i think there were a handful of members of the 26th of july movement to flee to the mountains. che and raul and castro infidels were among those in the ties that they forged were the revolution, were unbreakable, unbreakable. che and castro could disagree on

things, for example on what kind of revolution the soviets -- the soviets i was more if they have to wait for conditions to be right before you wage revolution whereas che was more he don't wait for the conditions to be right. if there is injustice to go ahead and create, you make that revolution but i really, from just my perspective, from my opinion i don't think castro sent him to bolivia to his death. he had castro's blessing when he went to bolivia and he was exploiting a cuban style revolution to that country which he hoped would spread to bolivia's neighbors. steve local pope related -- population at the understanding of the government. some of them didn't even know what country they belong to really because of the lebanon -- level of isolation that che chose to start its his operation. the people there were surviving.

they were very suspicious of strangers. they gave him virtually no support and this doctrine of revolution just fell on deaf ears to a great extent. see you are absolutely right. there are a lot of good points there. one is he picked the wrong area of the country to go to. this was an isolated area with indians who spoke a different dialect so when che was there trying to recruit people for the revolution, you you have a haven endeavour area and you recruit. he would go into towns and give speeches and there would be silenced because they didn't understand a word he said. seriously he spoke a different dialect altogether. also it was a sparsely populated area and he picked another part of the country near the copper and tin mines where there were unions and students.

maybe different because there was unrest in bolivia in 1967 but he picked an area, i'm trying to think, in the united states where the equivalent would be. maybe the mojave desert. it was just isolated and they weren't very many people there and they were suspicious. they also miscalculated one thing. he went to bolivia in part because its neighbor to five other countries and he thought he could spread revolution to those countries but he also went to bolivia because he thought they had the weakest military in south america which they did what he also thought that people would be receptive to the revolutionary ideas. the problem was that olivia underwent a revolution in 1952 which gave land rights to indians, which gave rights to minors and disbanded the military 1952 after that revolution and it was as if che ignored what happened in bolivia

you are absolutely right about the people. there was no support and in fact towards the very and almost from the very beginning che was more a fugitive and a guerrilla. everywhere he went the people he was trying to help went to the army and they tracked him down. it was like an episode of america's most wanted. truly worth the went into the village, and even note -- notes that in his diary. che was a prolific writer and has a hemingwayesque style so if you read the diaries, he says and the sarcastic sometimes, we went into this village and i know they are -- right now. while che was great at promoting revolution and writing how-to books on revolution when you look at his record as a military leader as a tactician my conclusion is it was a total

failure. [inaudible] he was a survivor after che was jailed. he has written a lot about it. there are reasons to believe that could've been the case. i'm not the authority that you are pretty could've been the case that he had traveled around the world. he had visited the chinese and castro was -- to the soviet union. when he returned from a worldwide trip he was lost.

che plosive pain came brother -- kid brother. he off the soviet union. one of the last beach speech of che mixes in algeria where he accuses the soviet union of being no better than the united states. those are his words. and yeah che was a loose canon. he was a celebrity, he was an icon that castro was behind the mission, gave his blessing to the congo mission and to bolivia. in fact there were photos. if you go on line you can see them. for che to speak and to bolivia he couldn't go in with a scraggly beard that he went in as a businessman. he shaved part of his head and he gained a lot of weight and

was wearing a suit and tie. there is a photo of him in her book on his passport photo in bolivia and you look at him and it's kind of like a middle-aged businessman. sometimes a photo does say a thousand words. >> a two-part question. did you interview anybody from the cia? and the second part did you do any research on the testimony and what relevance they are interrogation played? >> starting with the second question.

i think and match, particularly dupree the way that when he was captured train to french philosopher -- he hooked up with che and decided he didn't want to be a guerrilla anymore and walked into a village and got arrested. when they arrested him i think he got interrogated. i think he has backed off of that a little bit at some point point -- but to make a long story short charles degaulle the president of france gets involved and the calmness and france get involved. they write letters to release him. and it was a big embarrassment. there was a headache for the bolivians as well as the americans. that leads to the endgame with

che to some extent. the bolivians when they capture che, you have che now. how do you handle that? we talked to some of the bolivians about this. they had him but they didn't have a person that could hold che so there was also a fear that the keepers would just take him. i think that testimony and that arrest led to later the way that che is treated. they helped. they were part of the cachet that felix immediately latches onto when he gets there and was able to piece it together. and i know there's a new book that mitch can talk about in a second. i haven't seen it yet. as for the other guys in the cia we have a lot of the documentation they had dared we did talk to felix. there's a considerable amount written but trying to track it

down, we try to keep this in a soda straw view. we branched out as much as we could arras arras much is going to do but really the focus was on what felix and gustav overseeing. [inaudible] is being no, we didn't really get into those. do you want to talk about it? >> yeah after i think 45 years he broke the silence and broke his memoirs and in their he downplays that his photos had anything to do with him. clearly those photos were pretty good, i mean those drawings that he made and once they had them the bolivian soldiers were able to distribute them all throughout the country. and they had a better idea of who was in this band so it helped a lot.

they told him slowly where they were. there was a part of the sense that they didn't want to give away everything. but they told them generally where the safe house was an where they were hiding documents and it came out slowly over a period of a few months. a little bit longer than that because they don't start distributing those photos until august of 67. that is when the government starts handing it out. [inaudible] >> exactly and we have to remember it's not like it is today where you have cnn and everything is instant. what you did enough for a lot of newspapers and international journalists from the new york times and "the washington post" and they were reporting any development.

it became a nightmare for the bolivians. kevin raised the point they didn't have the depth of the in bolivia. also their prisons where more like kind of hole her. they didn't really have that structure their answer after they saw and capture che they didn't know what to do. they didn't want to have to go through that pain anymore. oh i'm sorry. yeah. see when they finally captured him in the distant they made is piggybacking on my question, where was pepe shelton? was the here and what was he doing in those final hours and did he have any operational control? pappy stuck to the mission. i know over the years there've been rumors that the green berets were up and they played a

role in che's death. they were back in law speranza training different bolivians. they were doing that training so pappy didn't know anything about where the rangers were what they were doing. he knew they were out there hunting for che at the pole position about what to do with che and the capture of che was strictly the bolivians and the cia officers who were there. they knew what was going on but pappy shelton did not play any role in the. [inaudible] [inaudible]

>> we didn't find anything that indicates that. i have heard that and i have heard there is a fraud frog man that shot him. i have heard -- i don't know. at this point i have no -- i have got -- no one has ever told me. but i mean i will definitely check it more but i've heard the same things. in some respects we did follow but we talked to a lot of guys who run the ground that gave no indication and at this point we are talking 1967. all right, that works. i will take that. see the current bolivian government, have they made any comments? did they see things differently? >> no, i wish they would though. that would be great. i have not heard anything from them.

>> they are in charge now. >> yeah they are and like i said a lot of the history is really focused on che and che's trail and if you go where they took them after they captured him, there's a huge bust and there is a museum for him. it's an interesting history mostly because of that fact that ultimately when you break it down he failed and yet did he? it's arguable. i don't know. >> they explore revolutionaries with doctrine, with a. leftist revolution isn't necessarily military. now it's more military aid, doctors, knowledge. >> soft power. that's exactly why you see a lot of feet different, hezbollah and these guys are doing it to med. it's good pr when you comment and it's a carrot and a stick.

i don't know how close he saw that strategy migrate with the u.s. where you saw israel strategy migrate and the whole fight can be fought on those two fronts. i don't disagree with you. i think there's a real balance there and it will be interesting to see. i don't think we are going to see any world war ii's anytime soon. in some ways this fight in 67 is the fight you are going to see in the next 10 years because special forces, 2014 may be the end of the afghan war but not for afghans. they are going to be busy. they are busy nowadays think what you are seeing is exactly the kind of fight. it's going to be doctors. i was with the civil affairs team in africa where they put together a clinic and they were going out and fixing cattle in kenya just south of somalia. i've been in haiti with cia guys after the earthquake.

you are right, the fight fight now and someone is going to be we can bring you this stuff if you want to be friends and also we can train your guys to fight off to the guys that we both don't like. i think that is going to be at the heart of the fight in the future especially for special forces units. if you talk to usf guys now bear combat oriented because they spent a lot of time fighting. if you will be interesting to watch this force migrate it to what pappy shelton had and the guy who spent his whole career kicking in doors now he has to go train marksmanship. >> the million-dollar missiles to -- >> can kill your way to it. >> do you find it unusual that on the heels of the commitment that cuba made with russia and to africa that they would go almost like a keystone cop

approach going into olivia and south america which is a greater prize, a prize at of the cost? >> could you rephrase that and asked that question one more time? >> in other words they went into africa where logistically and monetarily it was not as much of the game from a logistic standpoint. don't you find it unusual that castro sends and is not a dummy, he sends his right hand person lets say as far as exploiting revolution to the middle of south america, almost like it's a bunch of amateurs going in there. in there. in other words it mustn't much of a commitment. don't you find that unusual, that they would make such a blatant mistake and miscalculation about places in south america?

>> no, you have to realize that point che was a celebrity. look at everything he had gone through both during the cuban revolution and later in africa. he felt like he was untouchable at that point, that he wasn't going to die and he felt that i really believe that che felt he could succeed, that his theory was right and remember his theory was simple. a small group going into rural area to bring down an established government. and that is what he did in both africa and he was proved wrong and in bolivia and he was proved wrong for a number of different reasons. so if the point is you think that castro sent him to the congo and bolivia and failed, i don't think so. i think che went to the congo and went to bolivia to succeed. i think he truly believed that he was going to win, that his

very was going to take hold and he was going to you know start many vietnam's in the region. yes. >> to what extent was their logistical failure in bolivia because of castro himself or castro support of che? >> that is a good question. clearly they believe that this was the right area to go into in bolivia. but one of the mistakes that che made talking about logistics and where to go was he had alienated the bolivian communist party. the bolivian communist party was telling him, you were going into one we should be going -- leading leading the revolution not u.n. two you really need to be off for the mines are in che again didn't think he was wrong.

he said no, we are cubans, we know better. it's my theory and you're going to follow me. if you don't goodbye and that was part of the problem in bolivia, he had no support of the bolivian communist party. there was a real schism there so really the planning for the bolivia mission was che didn't consult the bolivian communist party who was basically giving him advice where to go logistics wise and they had a number of set x. from the very beginning, almost from the moment they got there to this little farmhouse in this remote area he was discovered. they were doing troop movements. they were sending guys into rural villages with a ton of money to buy supplies. again, the people that were at their word turning straight to the military. i think it was mostly che doing the planning.

yes. che? in argentina. any other questions? one more question. >> would either acute care to fast-forward that to where we are today and where we need to go in but we need to think about based on what we are seeing and have understood? [laughter] >> in general? [inaudible] will i mean let's go back to this idea. obviously from a military standpoint i think in the next 10 years i think you're going to see you all princes the military

have to rethink the way that they fight. i think that you are seeing now lots of what they call well, we call them drones and the guys who actually operate them call them remotely pilot -- remotely piloted vehicles. they get angry with the drone term. that isn't going anywhere and i think you are going to see not only the air force but they may be just launched a drone off of an aircraft carrier further than than -- far the better than what they could put a human them. it's always going to go back to people. in 10 years from now what we learn from this, you will say the hardest one for last ,-com,-com ma i will give you that. what do you think? >> they know what they are doing. most of the time based on the current conflict. are you willing to protect what the policy needs to be?

>> i mean, simple policy terms going forward. the civilian leadership for the military needs to understand the military better and when they tell them to do something they better be very clear about what they wanted to do and made sure they want them to do it. the military is going to die trying to do it so that is number one. no more of this mission creep where you get wars that change objectives depending on who the general was. i'm not even going to touch domestic policy. it's a good try though, it's a good try. but i think you are going to see -- we have lots of questions. i am going to -- this is terrible. we were joking that this looks like a presidential -- and i'm going to dodge this question. watch how we dodge it rate i'm going to say this. as the is the american people

enough to ask her question -- ourselves question. once we as a people figure out the answer, there you go. [applause] 's the new york daily news columnist stanley crouch what's on your summer reading list? >> well, i am working on a screenplay of my novel. i have to re-read it to actually figure out how i will make the screenplay work. it's a very complex story of a romance and the protagonist is this blonde woman from south

dakota. my greatest achievement in my entire life is to go there. i was talking with this guy and he mentioned my novel. i said well, he didn't know who i was. so he says have you read that? i said i heard about it. i don't know, did you read it? he said the i i read it and i simply did you read it and he said i'm from south dakota. i said really? he said yes and in fact i know every person in that woman's family. i have met all of them growing up and i said really? he said yes he got it exactly right and i didn't even tell him. i said well known novelists can

ever get better praise than that than to have somebody from a state that you have actually never been to believe that character so much that they are convinced your new all those people. >> mark twain was a very young man when he was here in carson city. he was worn in 1835 so he arrived in 1851. do the math, he was 26 or so. it was a forward period of his life and the experiences he has here all the things he does and the things that he writes and the notoriety beginning in san francisco and new york city,

this laid the foundation for the man who would become one of the greatest writers in american history. i would argue that without the carson city experience the nevada territorial experience -- could never have been mark twain. what are you reading this summer? booktv want to know. see their three books on my summer reading list. the first is the humanity project by jean thompson, a novel about a philanthropist who starts writing big checks to bright people. another book on my list is adventures of the alimentary canal by mary roach.

it's a book about how we eat. the last time i read a book about food, the american way of being about a different part of the culinary experience and the last book on my list is called thinking in life living and math the book that looks at everyday things and have him math -- so i'm looking forward to -- up next on booktv "after words" with guest host scott snyder director of the program on u.s.-korea relations at the council on foreign matters. ..

one of the interesting aspects of the way that you have framed this book is that it's not just about the events of the fighting faces -- phase of the war i