points of failure. my friends, in a disrupted environment you will find new critical nodes emerge. we had no idea that the tender morgan terminal would be so essential to restoring energy functionality. so as you think about where to invest in resilience, blue sky environment, not enough. think about what it would be like in a severely disrupted environment where, by surprise, critical nodes will emerge. >> let me ask one quick question of larry or matt. with respect to the deployed of tools. similar question to what i asked of paul. what could we be doing better institutional, legal hurdles to deployment of budgetary constraints as well and what can we be doing better to get more of the detext technology --

detection technologies. >> i'll start and then ask others to join. tools are an interesting part of solving the challenge, but one of the greater challenges is the general hygiene of cyber needs to be improved. too often we're making it so easy for our adversaries to attack us. we're not doing the basic, most simple things we need to do to secure ourselves. some of it is as basic as coming up with passwords that are not crackable. brute force attacks take the dictionary and then drove it at your login and see if those work. it can also be patching your software systems. there are a lot of applications out there that need to be updated with the property

security protocols because they identified vulnerabilities and have solved them. knowing your network architecture and knowing the vulnerabilities of your network architecture are critical. there are 20 of these wonderful critical control systems capabilities and in dhs they're working within the federal government of coming up with continuous monitoring to look admit gageses -- mitigations toe sure these vulnerabilities are identified. you would also need, which are commercially available and privately available, the potential to understand better what is coming into your network that you're getting into, scott. i think that's got to be part of a company's risk management. do you outsource or take that? i well tell you, since september of 2012, our financial services have been under near constant attack against a group. and they're very unhappy about a youtube video insulting to the prophet muhammad, and the

attacks have been rather significant and they have really changed our view of the risk calculus of the cybersecurity threat we're facing. a lot of new investments are being made in resources and tools tools and personnel because they have been under weekly attack. worry about the other critical infrastructure sectors that could be face these attacks now they're far more mature in other sectors and the amount of buildup we would have to do to get them to the same level of preparedness. >> scott, i think one fundamental hurdle or challenge in taking government developed tools and technologies that we use to defend our networks and transferring them to the private sector, is the fact that we have a lot more leeway. we have stronger authorities. clear authorities, for what we can do or must do to defend our own networks. when you develop these tools to do that and then try to move it

to the private sector it's not always an easy transition. ecs, enhanced sieber security services is an example. came from einstein, which came from other technologies. we're working on the program you mentioned in the bios, similar thing. started out as a technology developed to defend doe networks and it's very aggressive, and because of that aggressive nature of it, the things you can do to defend your own networks in the government aren't the same authorities than the private sector. i think we have work through a lot of those issues and there are ways to get around there. one of the audience members mentioned minimization. that's a key thing. if we can do that in a machine speed and remove any sensitive information that a private sector entity wants to share

wi what they want to share just what is relevant, the actionable cyberthreat information and not random e-mails from employees, so coming up with a way to do that fast is a goal. >> chime in here. usually at these type forums usually asked, where do you spend your next dollar for security? and a good question these days, especially when we talk about costs. and i really think has to be towards the work force. in the military circles we have our cyber warriors but i think the analogous is in the bulk power system or critical infrastructure, we actually have to keep -- do the same thing with our work force, and of course, all the skill sets and then retain them. i know during the rise of

dot-come in the coast guard, and everyone who wanted to leave i sat them on my couch and tried to keep them to stay. then the recession hit and i kept them all. but right now the work force is the best tool you can do. and along with that, working with our government partners to try to take that technology that the government does build, the conrad type of machine, the machine stuff we heard the industry panel say, hey, we'd like to see, i think if we can figure out the barriers and trop -- drop those in the budget and figure out how to get it in play is what we'd all like to see right now. >> thanks for that. from the audience. >> i am sean, a reporter with sharp grid today. it's been said that with regards

to isac there are not enough security clearances for everyone who wants to participate. it's acknowledged this is a problem and what is being done to address it. >> thanks for the question. the industry recognized we needed to get security clearances out to those that really need it. so then you do the simple math, and i want to say there's 4,000 entities and to come up with a model that may be three or four clearances are needed for entities. do the math, it's just simply not achievable with the budget constraints, the handling of that many background investigations, et cetera, et cetera. so, who really should get those clearances? well, the technical committee that reports directly to the board of directors, tackled this problem for the last eight

months. they formed a task force and we built a product. that's one of the reports going to the board here next week, and if it's approved, accepted, by the board, it will become public. that is one model for the clearance issue. and i look forward to getting that in play with our government partners and seeing what they think. so, not everybody can -- needs a clearance, and i keep telling everybody, you don't need that top secret clearance. a secret clearance will do, and we look forward to trying to fix that. not everybody can have one but certain people need to have it. >> if i can offer a few other thoughts. in the executive order of government was tasked by the president to expedite our ability to provide security clearances to the private sector. that is a very useful thing but ultimately there will be more people who want to know that are

capable of knowing for a number of reasons to include the financial costs. i think one of the most important things we can do is to seek classified information to really get out the information that needs to go out and protect and mitigate the cyber challenges. the ability of government to get that information in a timely manner to those who need it is a far better process. i will also tell you, don't undersell the information you already have that is available outside of government channels. in my experience, very often the best information for cyber security is in the private sector, and it is unclassified. so, government has a role. we can provide information that may not be accessible but i'll tell you it's not the norm. the norm is that the private sector has that information because they're opening and operating these systems and able to see the threats that are coming. so there's a balance that will never get rid of the need to have security clearances because

weed in to protect our intelligence and law enforcement assets and we need to have a higher, prior percentage of information that is unclassified and is also shared between private sector partners and not just through government. >> i just like to follow up real quick, too. working with the isac who have top secret clearances work side-by-side, the experts and we do look at how to get it below the line and get it out so it's actionable and real time. >> anybody else want to add the clearances? >> the only thing i would say is through some of this coordinating council work that ceos and deputy secretaries have focused on information flow, information sharing. one of the action items was to get some more clearances where folks in the industry and to the government's credit dhs and doe have been very aggressive to identify the right people, to make sure there's access to

classified information and classified meetings and briefings. >> question over here. >> hi, stephanie davis from competitive power ventures. matthew mentioned the u.s. is one of the only nations that actively enforces standards in the bulk power system. that's a very important distinction. the the panel's potential are the current standards or version 5 enough to mitigate and identify cyber security attacks or do you believe a different set of standards or regulatory policies are necessary within the evolving nature of cyber security attacks in regard to the electric industry, or are you expecting that to come outside of the regulatory arena. >> i got your name, stephanie. i'll try the first whack at that. i'm a firm believer that you need standards and compliance enforcement for a set of foundational controls. and they give you a good bedrock for approaching security but they are not the answer to the

solution in that we're going to have this all-encompassing, continually evolving standards. you have to let them -- let the industry have a chance to get into that -- get them adopted, get them in place, get the work force to really know what they are, how to do them, and truly protect those. the adaptive control is the information sharing and an littics that is going -- an an an -- and the controls are really, really important. that's what we have to really focus on right now. we got version 5 and that's coming. >> anybody else care to comment? >> just to add on to what matt just said. standards are by nature static.

they don't address the dynamic nature of cyber security, and the fact we're on version 5 is good, but people say why don't you want version 3? why didn't you get it right the first time. that illustrates the point you don't get it right the first time, and if i'm in the industry long enough i look forward to being on version 47 like larry with the energizer playbook. this is a dynamic threat, evolving threat, and standards are good way to create that baseline level of security, but it goes to those other components, the incident response. tools and technology, coordinating that allows you to respond appropriately. question over here. >> good afternoon, patrick brown from the canadian electricity association. one aspect worth highlighting for the discussion today is something that actually builds on a comment made about the interconnectiveness of the grid. not only interconnected across

the united states but crosses an international border at three dozen different points. one of the ropes our association and our members have been long-standing supporters of the american model is it allows for all of the owners and operators to comply with a common set of standards applied across the north american grid, and i think that raises some interesting governance questions as well. and in view of the interconnected nature of the grid across the international border i'm curious to hear what you believe is essential for government to government coordination and the nerc model could be applied to toe other -- to other sectors with access across the border, and recognizing, in light of the connected -- the coordination that has to take place, if there's any concern around disparity of resources between what nccic has at its disposal

and what other international partners might be able to achieve. i'm curious to hear your thoughts. >> perhaps i'll kick off. as i mentioned earlier in my opening comments, there's over 200 certs worldwide we deal with and they're all over the map as far as technical capabilities in some cases they're very new and trying to figure out, what is their role within their own countries? supporting their government? supporting the private sector? so, in many cases they're trying to discover and learn from us and others as far as what is the appropriate role for a national cert. in other cases it's very mature, such as ours, and they work very closely with their industry partners and they work very closely with the governmental partners and across borders. but those are not the norm. they are rather the unique

exceptions. so, as you look at the canadian/u.s. -- we have a very strong relationship ask just had a meeting in ottawa two months ago with four other certs and we continued to look at the challenges of responding to across-border incident and ones that go across oceans. the other challenges is each nation has different laws and different policies as far as government's roles. in some cases it is government has a very direct role in cyber security. in other cases they have an extremely limited role. in some cases it's undefined altogether. so, this is an interesting time in that people are still trying to figure out, what do you do, when do you do it and how do you do and it what are the capables to bring. but we're not quite there yet. so there are a lot more questions than answers. >> i guess i'll add a couple

thoughts. one of the best briefings i received in the last year was up in canada and it was a joint effort between the united states and canada, just happened to be held up in canada, with them as the host, and the primary -- a briefing and it was very easy for me to send out my security clearance information and it was recognized by the canadians and i was brought right in to the royal canadian intelligence service, and they were right on target and it was very open and a truly -- felt really good to have those folks as our neighbors. and then the coordinating council, just to point out, is also made up of canadian membership with u.s. industry experts -- or ceos. and so we have that going, and

then there are always -- always involved and invited in our technical commitees and so forth. so almost on every one of the pillars i talked about for strategic actions we're arm in arm with the canadians, and grid ex is north american and we'll have mexico involved, so mexico, u.s., and canada, and we'll have it from industry and government. so, i think we're broadening our look. >> great. paul, i want to bring you back into this. with respect -- there's been a lot of talk about agencies, ppd21, the relationship that each of the critical sectors has with its ssa some then dhs. given your former life at dod and the critical facilities,

that dod operates as well as the access to intelligence that comes from there, you talk a little bit about the relationship, especially in light of what has happened with edward snowden and the nsa that relationship between the foreign spacing components of the american government, and its relationship to owners and operators of critical infrastructure who traditionally operate domestically. >> there are a few trend that are important, underpinnings of your question. first of all, over the last decade, increasingly the department of defense relies on facilities here in the united states in order to operate our forces abroad, and so when you look at the dependence of dod facilities, military bases here, on privately owned infrastructure, especially the

electric grid, you can see the imperative for dod to be able to partner effectively, not only with industry to assure the flow of those vital electricity services, but of course also with the department of energy and the department of homeland security, which will always be in the lead for the federal government. never the department of defense force these kinds of issues. so, building industry collaboration under the leadership and the federal team with doe and dhs is absolutely vital for the department of defenseful -- department of defense. this is true because adversaries know of the dependence of dod on critical infrastructure, so we need to assure that dod can execute the missions the president calls on dod to execute, we're prepared for that and we deny the adversary easy

options, potentially attractive options to aadopt a deeply asymmetric -- signed an an an -- find an asymmetric way to attack us here at home. >> we have time for one more question. >> i'll leave this one as rare amorphous. harkening back to our opening, talking about american social norm, values, identity, a nation of 300 million individuals who happen to occupy a common piece of geography and share a massive government that does amazing things for us. you have had a very technical discussion and i feel very good about what you're doing collectively as a technical

community, but how do we engage the public in these conflicting natural tensions in the society between privacy, the defense establishment, how much we trust those institutions, how do we bring that public dynamic into public policy and private policy for that matter, that you folks are in charge of? >> i'm going to piggyback on that question. it dovetails with one i wanted to ask as welch it's an important question about the public perception of critical infrastructure and its role in protecting society. one of the things that came out of general hayden's comments was this sort of declaration that i don't disagree with, that cispa is likely dead and legislation in general does not have the easiest path. so, in addition to this engaging

of these important issues that the gentleman raised with respect to getting the public sector or the public's buy-in are there some things happening with respect to policy or things happening in the absence of legislation that we are already doing that lend themselves to maybe a broader disease bait, that -- broader debate or in the an sense of legislation that don't require a whole lot of legislative movement, and ask you to answer those questions. >> let me begin by offering a few thoughts. one is public and the other one is potentially the legislative. see something, say something. i get a dollar everytime i say it. see something, say something. it's kind of goofy but i saves lives. it's resonated with the public,

when you see something, alert authorities. stop, think, connect. it's not quite real estate nateing. you good to my ipad you'll see a lot of applications i have not updated because i am fearful i'm going to corrupt my ipad. our, my children click on everything in sight. so, where i think my credit card is secure, apparently i buy a lot of xbox games. i development have an xbox. so, my credit card information is very much out in the wild, and my kids are clicking on everything in sight. so i'm taking extraordinary publicly ridiculous measures and they're going absolutely crazy mitchell mom got a laptop from my brother-in-law no is an e.t. control, and she get as popup and she says, it's broken. and she closeesed. we say just click the little x and it goes away and she says, it's broken.

there's not an understanding about the threats of cyberspace. and scott talked about standards, as soon as you have something it already becomes overtaken by events of. there's an old adage in spear fishing, something is misspelled or doesn't look like, don't click on it. they're so sophisticated now you cannot tell. so, in many case it is very hard to tell the public what is it they should do and not do because it changeness -- changes and our adversaries adapt. i grew up in new york and my family is in new york and if i talk about hurricane and i lived in florida for more than a decade and as a victim of many hurricane, where there has been no power, and no energy, but it's a story of another time. but if you asked about -- talk about hurricanes in new york, they go, no big deal. you got their attention now.

they're very much aware of what hurricane can do and they'll prepare. i worry as nation we won't be able to take the precautions we need to last through an event. very briefly on our ability in government. i came into cyber security and when you have a national security, a terrorist event, everybody comes together. you want to go to the disaster escape, crime -- disaster scene and crime scene and everybody everybody. in cyber security it's a competitive business. there are people who are offering services for fee and they may not be so willing to share that information because it may inhibit their ability to do their business. so that competitor nature makes it different. so i'm not saying there's a katrina for 9/11, people won't share, but on the smaller things there's not as much willingness. the other challenge is we have a number of companies who would like to share information with us throughout the government,

and one of the challenges they face there's no basis in law for them to do so. so, we'll talk i.t. professional to i.t. profession, policy person to policy person and share, and then it gets to their general councils and i'm not picking on lawyers, they keep our out of jail. but they'll look at it and go, i don't see it says we can. don't see it says we can't so we'll be caution and not share with the government. we need statutory clarity for sharing information. i hope we can focus on that because there's broad public and private support for clarity on information sharing, because absent that we're going to be greatly restricted on how we can author all of the dod you need to better protect your networks and businesses. >> thanks. anybody else? well, clearly our laws have not kept up with our situation, and

whether we're being able to solve that -- we're applying telecommunications laws to cyber because we don't have that framework in place and its relatively new. during the clinton administration, the first government official put in charge of the internet when we realized this is a national security asset that we may want to start thinking more strongly about. so that's just a few years ago. so, privacy act. those were written before the internet. so, we're not going to solve that problem with legislation that tinkers around the edges, even though it's necessary. i just think our better approach is focusing on resiliency concepts and we know the enemy in our network. we know we have to do more to

prepare for and assume that something will happen. training, exercising, basic, fundamental practices that security network is what -- the best way to go and it's not as expensive as fancy tools and technologies but it gets you in a better place. >> just personal experience. watching the isac grow and the capability and capacity. there's a fundamental reason why -- that it's going to be successful, that it is successful, and that's about trust and confidence. when the public, in this case, the industry, has information and they're deciding whether or not to share it, to get that bidirectional flow of information they have to know that on the other end that their information is going to be safeguarded, that their initials their company name, et cetera, et cetera, is going to be

safeguarded and not shared and basically anonymous, and so i would say it guess down to the fundamentals. if you really want to get information sharing you have to have the trust and confidence and if that comes about through policy that larry talked about to get those safeguards, that safe haven so to speak, then we'll need to do it. so right now we have got to garner that trust and respect. >> there's an important component of society as a whole, and i call them rate payers. if cost recovery is going to go forward, rate payers need to understand in concrete terms what they're getting for investments in resilience. we need to be able to explain in terms of jobs, in terms of economic effects, what value is there to faster restoration of grid functionality. this can be explained. it can be proven through objective analysis.

let's be able to tell the story better and have sound method approaches to do so, so that citizens who pay rates, can understand whether or not a rate increase really is justified. >> thank you for that. i appreciate you guys, especially on the last question, bringing it over to nebulous topics together, this idea that there needs to be a public debate and discussion because the more education and explain that's goes out there with respect to the value of government and industry coordinating in defense of national security, even though it is a new paradigm, a new domain, to. >> host: -- to use general hayden0s technology. so please join me in thanking this panel. [applause] [inaudible conversations]

how the review will change it. president obama is on his way to phoenix where we will continue a series of speeches on the economy.

the associated press reports while in arizona the president will propose an overhaul to the nation's mortgage finance system, including shutting down government-backed fannie mae and freddie mac the president will outline his proposals today at a construction company in phoenix. c-span will have live coverage of the speech at 4:05:00 p.m. eastern. each day this week while congress is on recess we'll bring encore q&a at 7:00 eastern here on c-span2. today the cocorrect tore of the documentary, detropia to look at decline of the auto industry and the loss of more than half of detroit's population as a result. 8:00 eastern, booktv in prime time. tonight the focus on book fairs and festivals of the past year, including a discussion from the harlem book fair, and a look at the book, "stalin secrets," author ann romney and a book about whitty bulger.

we'll -- >> i'm not some sort of anti-suburb person who thinks everyone needs to live in new york city and, you know i was very sensitive to be coming across as a sort of a espresso-sipping, condo-dwelling elitist of sometime. that is not why i did this book. i understand why people like the suburbs. i get fed up with a lot of daily life in new york city a lot. i was more drawn, the trend were so undeniable. the fact there is a shift the way suburban america perceived by people that live there is too big of a story to ignore. >> the earliest extent letter we have, dates to october 1762 and we call it the miss adorable

letter because that is how john adams opens the letter. so it is john writing to abigail and he says, miss adorable, by the same token that the bearer here of sat up with laws night i hereby order you to give him as many kisses and as many hours of your company after 9:00 as he shall please to demand and charge them to my account. i presume i have good right to draw upon you for the kisses as i have given two or three million at least. when one has been received and of consequence the accounts between us is immensely in favor of yours. >> more about protecting the nation's electric grid in about an hour here on c-span2 until then, some of the discussion from earlier today.

>> good morning. great to be here. let me start out by saying this, i really want to thank the bipartisan policy center for putting this together. i mean as you know, this is the cutting-edge issue right now. when it comes to risk and how we deal with going forward, mitigation of those risks, has everything to do with our success. yes the industry is doing a lot and the industry has done much to make sure that's true. one of the things i find humor rouse. normally the industry goes last on the panel and you're first here. how is it listed here. what did i do with it. but, anybody has something to do responding. you get to respond first. that is great opportunity for

you to share what is going on in industry, what you know, how you know it and what you think our risks are going forward. as we talk about, we'll move a little bit away from some some of the nation-state stuff. i know that is the sexy stuff and general hayden did a wonderful job covering that, but we're going to move to some of the not quite as sexy information about how we calculate risk, when we deal with that. how our standards are set and are the standards right? should we have minimum standards? do those minimum standards get in the way? should we be more risk-based? those type questions we're going to go -- get into here with this panel. one of the things we know, one of the things the bpcc wanted early on when i co-chaired with general hayden and sue tierney to know we don't have all the answers. to talk about the fact that cybersecurity is in fact a journey and not a destination, we're not going to reach an end

date like y2k where we say, okay, we did it right. now we can go home and rest. it's all over. some very bright people out there. lots of it has to do with ownership. some of it has to do with bad actors but we do have to ask ourselves when, we look at compliance, does that compliance in and of itself with fear an penalties does it actually drive the bar down perhaps? should we be looking at another way to do this? and as we look at that understanding that you have ferc, d.o.e., department of homeland security, dod, nerc. don't forget all the state commissions and municipalities who are all involved in this. as we look at that and one of the questions for the industry is, are we perhaps more prepared on the transmission side than we are on the distribution side? and of the states, maybe, maybe just a little less prepared than the feds are on this because of

the amount of attention that haste been paid in the past? and some of the jurisdictional issues and the costs. and when it comes to jurisdiction should we look at criticality of information versus private information when it comes to the sharing of that data? i know one of the people that just got up and asked a question about sharing of information, should that sharing of information, do we need to make certain between the government and the private sector that it is flowing both ways? that everyone is getting any and all information that they need? i would subject to you that we probably do need to do that. but as we do that, let's listen to the industry. let's see what they have to say, we do know that electricity is the most critical of infrastructure we have, right? we do know the gas, the water, telecommunications is all dependent on what we do on

electricity. if we fail at electricity we're going to fail miserably. one of the things we can do, doesn't matter if you look at hurricane sandy, doesn't matter if you're looking at katrina, or some of the blackouts and brownouts we have had, when you look at billions of dollars in losses and cost to systems and to customers, it is easy to see why we need to go down this road. but, and i'm going to close with this and then i'm going to bring the panel on, the one thing that we can not lose sight of in this because i can tell you from my experience in this industry as a state commissioner, as a federal commissioner, as a practicing lawyer, someone who spent a decade with fortune 500, actually with chris's company, i can tell you that cost matters. if we can solve our problems, perhaps through software that might be less expensive than hardware, then probably we should look that way but we do have to have a focus on cost. and again that is one of the

parameters that the bpcc has put in here that we need to look at. we need to understand going forward we do it correctly and mitigate the risks and understand cost to consumers and there must be a balance between those benefits, right? so we're going to do that having said that i will not read through everyone's bios. you have them in the packet but those who know chris peters, chris is vice president of critical infrastructure and protection at entergy. ed goeetz, vice president of the corporate security with excelon. doug myers is chief information fir with pepco holdings and scott saunders, information security officer with sacramento municipal utility district. i will bring them up one at a tile. we'll go through. if we have quick questions, if you don't have questions out there i will have a few questions and we'll see where it takes us. chris? >> okay, curt, thank you.

let me echo what kurt said. it is a pleasure to be here to talk about cybersecurity and the grid and also the response that our company has taken and some changes we've made over the past three or four years as we've seen a gathering threat of cyber actors out there, and responding to the changes we've made from a regulatory perspective. from nerc-cip and the cyber rule. one is threat. the other is strong governance and command-and-control. so from a threat perspective, i think the change we've made from a paradigm shift, we have to treat the cyber threat with the same respect that we give to forces of nature that impact our grid. hurricanes, floods, ice, storms.

the impact with our grade through the the year and we are organized to deal with those threats. we're strategic about how we respond, and we have to put the same comprehensive approach and the same attention to cyberthreats as we do with the other threats that impact our system. these, the cyber threat is part of our risk profile. we have to fund it. we have to staff it and we have to be prepared to respond as necessary. the other part is strong governance. i think when we've learned as a company that the cyber message needs to come from the top. it needs to be a bored-level and a ceo issue. they have to drive it. but as a cyber leadership, as a cyber leader, we have to give them the right information that they need to make decisions. not to blindly fund technologies

or personnel. we have to give them the right information on what the threat is, what the investment is, or what the regulation is so they can make good decisions and keep them informed. i can tell you that over the past three years the awareness level at the ceo and the board level at least in our company has risen dramatically. you all read "the wall street journal." they read "the washington post" and they ask hard questions. they ask questions about stuxnet and shamoon and what we are doing to combat those threats. they also ask about regulations. what are we doing to get ready for cip version 5. how is the white house executive order impacting our companies? so they're asking the right questions. and lastly command-and-control. i think it is just critical from a utility perspective we need to have firm command-and-control over our assets, over our people, over our processes, over

our investments and how those all are integrated together and how they impact our cyber and regulatory perspective. we have to maintain an accurate security and compliance state. i say that because i think that the two are inextricably linked together, the security and compliance state. so we need to know configurations. you know, the basic fundamentals, the boring things that nobody likes to talk about. we need to know who is coming in and out of our secure and sensitive environments. we need to know what traffic is coming into our networks, what traffic is leaving. i can tell you that we have external threats and internal. we dealt with internal threats, insider events that have had an impact on various areas of our company. we have to be able to track those and monitor it. so we have to continue to evolve

with technologies with awareness that can pull all these data points together and we can see them in one complete and comprehensive picture so we can make those decisions in real time that we need to and not wait 12 months to find out that we have a threat or a nefarious actor insider network. so with that said, let me go ahead and turn it over to ed. >> thanks very much, chris. after 9/11 the united states government moved very quickly to close the information-sharing gap within the intelligence community. and i would assert that the gap that we now have to close is the information-sharing between the critical infrastructure resource sector and the government. like to talk a little bit about excelon's position. we have a very strong commitment to securing our enterprise and we take it very seriously.

our responsibility to maintain and protect the privacy of our customers and to maintain the reliability of the bulk electric system. we prepare for incidents through an all-hazards approach. so i think as chris alluded to, it doesn't necessarily matter what the attack vector is. it is the result that we prepare for. in the area of information sharing we rely on the government but not solely on the government to address the threats to the electric sector and to excelon specifically. with the goal of ensuring the reliability of the bulk electric system excelon has four sigher

security legislative priorities. better government and private sector information-sharing, increased access to security clearances, liability protections for good faith efforts when sharing information with the government, and avoiding additional and duplicative regulations. excelon has specifically supported the cispa bill introduced by chairman rogers and representative ruppersberger as we believe it provides information sharing authority to the executive branch, addresses privacy concerns and reduce as company's liability associated with good faith efforts. on the operational side of information sharing there is some good work going on in the industry and government. i would like to cite isc-cert

and us-cert for good work. i would like to cite nerc, and give them recognition, specifically tim roxie from nerc for stepping to the gap and working with esi-sac, coming up with a set of processes and procedures to share information on a real-time basis. one of the concerns, initially in the information-sharing process was whether the information shared with nerc would be provided to the enforcement arm of nerc. in the march memo from d.o.e. assistant secretary hoffman we believe that that has been addressed and excelon is comfortable with nerc's initiatives there. excelon also supports the president's executive order and

we believe that it emphasizes partnerships and allows good cooperation between the private sector and government. so finally there's some positive movement to enhance cooperation between the electric sector and the government but we need to increase the speed of establishing processes and procedures that will enhance our ability to protect the nation's critical infrastructure. that, i'll turn it over to doug. >> thanks, ed. good morning, everyone. my remarks today are focused primarily on cyber incident response. first however i would like to provide some context for those remarks. the electric utility industry is one of the world's most asset intensive. and those assets are critical to society and many of them are necessarily located in harm's way. depending on the areas they serve, utilities face different types of harm. earthquake, wildfires, ice storms, tornadoes, hurricanes. the industry has extensive

experience in disaster recovery as one would expect given the importance of electricity to civilization and the role we play in providing electricity and restoring it. as such, all utilities consider emergency response planning to be essential to their mission and pepco holdings no exception. all utilities considered cybersecurity matters in their emergency planning for some time but as the risk after cyber event has grown so too has our collective attention to this risk. phi taking appropriate, multilayered defense indepth defense to cyberthreats. for obvious reasons i can't talk about the actual steps, procedures and systems that are in place but i can speak to four broad categories they fall. the first two are preparedness and prevention. one way we enhance our preparedness and prevention efforts is through information sharing which you heard repeatedly this morning through participation in various threat and vulnerable assessments with government agencies, industry

groups, pier companies and third party experts in the cybersecurity field. this include penetration tests at phi that go beyond compliance requirements. assuring grid participants have timely access to actionable threat information from the intelligence community is critical. it is not however earningsal for industry to know how threat information was obtained or by whom. often it is the sourcing that dictates higher level of secrecy classification and makes actionable threat information not immediately available. because the prevention of all cyberthreats is beyond the capability of any company or industry, the other two broad categories that all utilities address in their planning are response and recovery the actions we will take in the event of a cyberattack. our extensive experience responding for from major weather events that having clear, response procedures and protocols is earningsal to a rapid recovery. now a point worthy of emphasis. our focus across preparedness,

prevention, response and recovery is to address what can be controlled by the utility. by that i mean the vulnerabilities that the threat actors might seek to exploit and response and recovery readiness. now regarding the prevention of vulnerabilities, the electric utility industry is very actively engaged in that effort. utilities and the manufacture you ares that serve our industry actively participate with nist in the development and implementation of standards. cybersecurity requirements already exist for electric sector. a nerc process for keeping those requirements dynamic exists as well. so that they can continue to address changing threats. though we believe nerc should continue to lead the process for setting and enforcing requirements for the grid we also believe there is firm for ferc, d.o.e. and dhs in cyber matters as well. for example, ferc and d.o.e. are better positioned in our opinion to facilitate a coordinated grid response to a major event. dhs is perhaps best positioned to facilitate coordination

across critical sectors in the case of major event. so regarding cyber response planning it is important to bear in mind what most experts say about the likelihood of an event, and you heard it already this morning at least once, it is not if but when. phi like most utilities takes all hazards approach to emergency preparedness. utilities think about natural disasters as when, not if and we think the event after cyber threat in the same manner. there are several key difference between a hurricane for example, and a cyber event and these differences must be factored into response planning. for example a hurricane comes with some degree of warning. used tilts begin preparatory workdays in advance, detailed, 72, 48 and 24 hour checklists are in place across the property. cyberattacks are expected to come without any warning. secondarily situational awareness is essential to hurricane response. it is known with certainty when the event begins.

processes that the facility have in place can determine the extent of the damage and restoration priorities. starting point of a cyber event may not be well-known into the event and the operations may be very target of attack. third, unlike natural disasters a cyber event could be a crime, a national security incident or even an act of war. as such the type of nature of state and federal agency coordination could vary greatly from event to event. agency requests might even be in conflict. while every storm is different in terms of the damage on the utility civil a utility's response and its coordination with external entities during storms is purposefully consistent. last example. natural disasters are typically state or regional events. as such the industry is able to come to the aid of affected utilities through mutual assistance. while there are cyberattacks company are company-based events there are scenarios under consideration that industry-based events. for many reasons therefore the nature the attack complicates

the mutual assistance process. so in closing some key principles that should come out of this brief summary are one, emergency response is something that utilities have extensive experience with and two, that we rely upon consistent and repeatable procedures and protocols both internally and externally. so the latter point, there are probably half dozen federal agencies with clear lines of sight into a cyberattack on grid. d.o.e., ferc, nerc, dhs, dod, fbi, and various intelligence agencies. what is not clear is how these federal agencies will coordinate activities amongst themselves, with state and local governments and with the private sector during an event. what is also not clear, is what the trigger will be for direct federal engagement with the grid in the case of an event. which agency will lead that engagement? how deep that engagement will reach into our operations and what level of restoration will signal federal disengagement? these questions need to be answered before an event occurs.

through collaboration between industry and federal and state government we can answer these questions in a manner that facilitates coordination when coordination is needed most. scott? >> good morning, everybody. general maden, i just need to say i love my iphone as well. on hardware encryption, digitally signed apps and the app store views apps before they're published. some things a few of the competitors might want to think about. anyway, on to the remarks. of the nearly 3300 electric utilities in united states, over 87% fall under the umbrella of publicly owned utility as cooperativelily utilities. publicly owned utilities are elected board of directors or operated by a local form of government such as city councils or mayors. one important charactertic many utilities are classified as small businesses with limited resources. i worked for the sacramento munitional audit district in the sacramento, california.

we are 6th largest in the united states. 6,000 residential and commercial customers, 900 square miles and we have electric board of seven. we can not underscore that electricity would be a significant target by those intent on disrupting our national security an american way of life. electricity underpins the capability of everything we do and every other critical infrastructure. threats are changing rapidly. stutsnet, saudi aramco, and shamoon and provides public website of indus trial controlled systems. there is no doubt we're being examined. many attacks use well-known exploits and could be thwarted by cyber hygiene. plucking low-hanging fruit. basics patching secure coding. turning on security, creating a clear demarcation line between corporate and chrome systems an having a security aware workforce. voluntary standards or maimedtory standards?

electricity subsector working cyber resiliency since the standards in 2000 three. under the energy policy enacted in 2005. they created critical infrastructure protection standards. directed by the north american electric liability corporation, voted on by industry and ultimately approved by the federal energy regulatory commission these standards require owners and operators implement strict cyber practices that protect critsal assets. in the fifth revision implementation of controls is based on risk model with the national institute of standard and technologies. special publication, 853 security and private sieve controls. we have are use the high moderate and low classification. ion low classified systems will have some measure of control. one size does not fit all. we need to be mindful that overly burden dinsome regulatory regimes can threaten our ability to respond to emerging threats and create complexity where it is not needed and where it does not add value. regulations have the potential toe create a strong culture of

compliance while sacrificing security. selection of controls needs to be based on continuous risk assessment capabilities of threat actors and consequences vulnerabilities being exploited. as an industry this is what we're focusing on with our federal partners. led by the department energy and in collaboration with the national institute of standards and technology, north american electric liability corporation we created two significant cybersecurity documents. first the risk management process which tailored in this special publication 839, managing cybersecurity risk in an organization to unique attributes of utility operation providing systemically approach to framing assessing responding to and monitoring cyber risk. secondly the electricity subsector capability maturity model which provides owners and operators with the ability to measure implementation of objectives and practices related to cybersecurity management across domains. industry is significantly engaged with the development of president's executive order 13636. and voluntary cybersecurity framework. our sector provided tremendous

amount of professional capital and each of the collaboration workshops and dhs working groups. we see this as living voluntary framework that can evolve over time as threats evolve focusing in on the cyber hygiene best practices we all should be doing any way. are we doing enough? since the executive order was released we've seen greater engagement information sharing between the federal government and industry. rapid release of gained to ittores of compromise this critical to get actionable intelligence to the hands of owners and operators so think can assess their systems where we have opportunity to improve information sharing with bidirectional exchange. coalition of sharing information across utilities across regions and across sectors. to do this successfully we need to follow basically privacy principles as federal information practice principals. we take privacy of customer information seriously and security of information we do not think we need to share that information of our type of

customers. sharing information with the federal government you there executive order we are poised to expand the use of information sharing and analysis centers anyway. let's have them as our mediator between the industry and federal government. while information share something very important this alone is not going to increase our cyber resilience. over the past few years we've seen energy and security suppliers successfully compromise. since we're not designing the energy management software and hardware implemented in utility we have to rely on suppliers to build security into their development practices and into supply chain practices and now cloud service practices. in many cases they hold back the details about their technologies stating intellectual property concerns. this leads to utility with burden of deploying compensating measures thereby increasing cost to ratepayer and increasing complexity inneroperability. just as important to need to develop the next generation of our cyber workforce we need to cultivate not only i.t. brethren to understand the unique attributes much engineering systems but engineering

institutes to seek sigher security. this is odd statement and heard it several times this morning it is not if you get attacked but when you get attacked. we can not prevent cyber criminals from trying but surely we can protech our systems, our people, our companies and our grid by building security into the ecosystem. thanks. . . issue. because the privacy issued in and of itself can be a real obstacle to try and solve this. and one of the things that we talked about, general hayden

talked about was the information sharing and how you share that, how much of to share and who shares want with you. but i thought doug get a good job of placing something out there that i think is worth discussing. if we don't need the names of the actor, that's not critical to his computers other information that quite frankly we don't need, scott, i have to agree with you that information sharing in and of itself does not solve the problem, but we have to admit it is the cornerstone of solving this problem, and without it you cannot solve it. so what would you recommend we do from here when it comes to privacy? then i would invite everyone to join in on that. >> i think from a privacy perspective, we comment from a security information, we do not have customers, phi in that datastream at all. we agree that from a privacy, we have no concern over the release

of our security information. where we think that we have opportunity is that we are seeing what might be coming as much, a municipality focused in a very, in the center of the state, right? we have, california is a huge state. we have a lot of utilities in california. we have pg&e right next door. wouldn't be great if we could exchange information with pg&e and say look what i'm saying, look at what your thing. individually we think that information is just noise. together we see it's a concerted attack against our region. from a and information sharing with the federal government, i absolutely agree. we do need the indicators of complex we missing from the centers. that is critical. we are able to take that and put it into our situational awareness systems and we're able to make decisions based on that, based on that information. if we're just waiting for the government to tell us about

attacks, i think as 3300 utilities across the united states, we have a lot of information coming out us every day. if we pulled together into a more cohesive manner, that we actually could provide much more actual information back to the government in terms of what's actually happening to us. >> again, when we touched on here is there's information been shared within the industry and others information being shared with the government. since the executive order in, i believe it was february, phi has seen a lot of outrage from our government partners, interested in sharing information with us that is potentially viable to us in being aware of the potential threats. again, we don't need to know who. we don't even necessarily need to know what they're in gang i be because we're all back -- with machinations to know what that might be. frankly, we need some boring stuff like known bad ip

addresses. i've received some of that. i've received it that typically in a non-dynamic form. so one thing that would be potentially very beneficial i think the industry would be a form of dynamic, a dynamic feed of known bad ip addresses. again, i'm giving some of the boring details of what i people do. >> this is exactly what we need. this is the information we need. >> but if we have information like that been provided to on a regular basis, that can sell them at some of the other layers of defense we already have. if we know what the government knows, we can make sure that we are aware of threats. the earlier you know them, the better your reaction can be. as far as within the industry, phi belongs to a threat information sharing portal, along with i believe it's about a dozen of utilities. secure portal where we can begin to share information with our industry brethren. because we work for an industry, a notion of mutual assistance is

good for dna. we come to each other's aides during storms and where come into each other's aid as we prepare for cyber events. so i believe if we pursue both avenues we will be better positioned. >> on the privacy issue, exelon takes the privacy of our customers very seriously. and there are ways to protect that privacy when we share information with the government. there's currently a practice in place, and easy get a wiretap from court, not a fisa warrant, but a criminal warrant that non-pertinent information has to be minimized by the government, so i was just -- so i would suggest that that practice be adopted in any information that the private industry would share with the government could be minimized and personal information redacted that was not pertinent to the

investigation. so as far as information sharing, i think that information from the government as far as threats go, information developed by the companies themselves is the foundation for how we position our defenses. so we can't just say, protect us against everything. we need some type of design, for lack -- and that has to be based on actual and timely intelligence, whether that is generated by the government or whether that's generated by companies. and i would suggest that the nrc has a pretty good model of providing information to nuclear operators about current and emerging threats. so if we could adopt a similar model, it would help companies position their defenses to

address the threats rather than just try to protect against everything. >> i'll go back to the, i think it was the center for strategic and international studies report back in 2008. they made three-point. one, cyber is a national cyber problem. it's got to be dealt with. they also said it has to be, the approach needs to be comprehensive. it needs to use a full suite of american capabilities and resources to deal with it. the third point was the decisions and actions must respect privacy and civil liberties. and a pastor at the federal level, and it's true at our level as well. we have to have those basic protections in place. and i think as an industry, i think we've been pretty good at that, sharing data with the federal government, respecting

privacy, and from a private to private perspective, we share information all the time. i think at one point we tried to tally the number of information sharing forums we had, just within our industry, and with the federal government. there were 64 or 65, so we are comfortable with doing that what we need to make sure that when we exchange information, it is secure. we are using protection methods and respecting privacy and civil liberties. and we continue to improve that process. dhs as a pcii program. we are comfortable using that. would use that in the past. we just need to continue to evolve and make sure that we make this a tenant by the way to go about protecting information, whether it is at the federal or the private levels. >> great, thank you. i know we have the question. before we get to the two questions, i see a ferc commissioner tony clark. if you would stand up for us.

i didn't allies you're going to be here. we would have certainly had you. no, and we thank you for being here. i know your advisor is here as well. if she could stand it. we appreciate both you being here. we know the hard work you do and we know this is important to you, or you wouldn't be here. i will have to say, it's rare that you see a commissioner in an open audience when they are not serving on a panel so i think it says a lot about commissioner clark. we appreciate your attention to detail and service, and appreciate you. let's give them a hand. [applause] >> first question. >> my name is david. i write for forbes, and my question is for dogs although i would be interested in what the rest of the panel has to say. i was interested to hear that cyber is considered by pepco on the same threat level as weather events. and given that weather events are getting more severe and that utilities like pepco have had to spend a lot of resources to recover from storms, how much,

how many resources are going to be needed to protect against cyber threats? and where are those resources going to come from? >> well, we have, the initial answer to that might will be that they are across the entire property. security is part of everyone's job at phi. we have security awareness efforts, and i'm sure the other utilities up here do the same things as well, to make certain that everyone at the company understands what the potential threats are, what they can do to help mitigate those threats. in terms of the level of resources required to solve a problem, i think the key there is first off, to define what the problem is you're trying to solve. i think you heard this, i think it's worthy of emphasis, is that it's beyond the scope of the industry or any company in the industry to stop the threats

your you've heard who the potential threat actors are. i think it's clearly understandable why that would be beyond the capability of any company or industry. our job is to make sure we understand the vulnerabilities and to work best to mitigate those vulnerabilities. there's many different types of investments that are made. i figure might be somewhat imprudent if i went into great detail on those, but to this point we have the resources we require for the task at hand. however, you've also heard in line to mention here and how this is a growing threat. so i think a reasonable conversation about cost recovery is useful as part of this. and i guess the point i would make on that is that it's important to understand what role the federal government will play, cost recovery, and what role the state commissions will play. so i'll make a couple key points. first off, i think we would agree with the falling statements. i think we would agree that

security of the electric grid is in the national interest. i think we would agree that prudent and appropriate investments in cybersecurity and continuing investment in cyber street with risk mitigation also in the national interest. and i think we would agree that a path towards recovery for prudent and appropriate recovery of those investments is part of the regulatory compact. psych is the question for this audience might be, are we better served if we attempt to solve that driven by divisions of 51 different regulatory commissions, or driven by a consistent federal division across the nation. and again as cia al qaeda get to solve many regulatory issues but i'm not asked to solve them. we deal with ones and zeros. i would simply ask that question of the group, is that the

various roles of the federal government versus the role of state commissions i think it's important question to be answered. >> does anyone else have anything on that? let's go to the next question. >> i'm charles, report with smart grid today. my question is on the treachery suggestion that trend when they. i heard that before, as being a model for the electric industry. i was wondering if anyone at nerc is considering it strong or if they put forth proposals that affect? >> i haven't seen anything along those lines at this time from nerc or ferc. >> what would that look like if he were to take, if you could elaborate on the analogy with nuclear industry, and what would that look like in practice? >> so if we're going toeanouse

for information, they would be the focal point for intelligence information from the entire intelligence community. so they pulled in from the cia, nsa, fbi, all of the different intelligence agencies. and then put together a suggestion about how to protect yourself against these threats. that's similar to the way the nrc does it. in practical terms that's what i would envision. >> i want to make a quick point about the nerc. we are a nuclear company, and we have brought in a lot of talent from our nuclear business to help mature parts of the i.t. and our compliance programs. and we have brought their discipline and practices and

processes into our nerc program. it's helped us i think mature and evolve to a very disciplined safety because they have been used to operating under that level prescription for many years. they have a lot of practice that we've been able to bring the soviet is a model that we've looked at to help us in other parts of our company. >> yeah, i would say the es-isac is well-positioned to be the mediator for us. with nerc is involvement in the es-isac already the assurances that we now have on the separation between information sharing and enforcement, it would be a great way for us to be able to share information, and how the body to understand the information we are sharing. that's one of the big keys is we can open up every event at every

company but unless you have an understanding of how those systems communicate and operate, it's going to be very hard to make any actionable information out of that. nerc and the es-isac has that billy. they have the institutional knowledge our industry. >> you bring up an interesting question and going to kind of follow-up without a little bit to submit to this group, the nuclear industry is a good example when you look at things like the sense of depth, a ballistic risk assessment, things that we learned from the industry, which certainly mitigate risk to make us understand not only qualitatively but one of my ugly what the risks are. and then what actions we should take. having said that, if you look at the loop nuclear model with the nerc, one of them get is an organization where the nerc, its great deference to understand that it is a private organization. quite frankly does a very good

job of self regulating the industry to make certain that they are safe and secure, understanding their vital to the economy. having said that, do you foresee anything like that within the industry, whether it is maybe something that had steps into the role of impo? >> buhler? [laughter] spent i think one of the challenges, i think scott, i think part of, their state and there's information. i think we all agree those are two different things. you can be a wash in data but not necessarily understand how to connect all those dots to make sure you understand what the key threat is that you are looking to address. so i think one of the challenges is, certainly a role for data to

flow into the industries through various means. we've talked about on number those as well but another key point that we want to make sure that is emphasized here is a need to be, mechanism still turn that data into actionable information. the role that governments play where other agencies complain to provide not just the data but also start connecting some of the dots is key but i think it's also worth noting within the industry the ability to take that data and understand how turbine and information is are helpful and very necessary as well. >> yes. >> i'm a former colleague of chris's. and i think mr. mica you raised it and want to go back to it. and that is, the issue of effectively who pays. the regular compact. i think some of you said that resiliency of the grid is not free and it's not cheap. and so in my discussions with regulators, and i think

chairman, you keep this up as well, regulators are looking for some sort of regulatory construct in which to be able to understand the costs and benefits of the investments that are necessary to both make the grid more resilient to cyber assault, antipodes showing recover the grid from cyber assault. but yet regulators, you know, are facing lots of conflicting pressures, rate increases, affordability, et cetera. so how do we talk to regulators at both the state and federal level? and how do we deliver some sort of model or regulatory construct against which regulators can make some sort of prudence he or cost effectiveness or cost-benefit decision regarding what's necessary to protect the grid in a cyber situation? >> i think is clearly a difficult issue or it would have been solved already.

i think a point that is worthy of emphasis is that, again, when we're trying to solve this issue at 51 different commissions, we need to also understand the nature of the grid is such that it's one large system to its interconnected. the actions or inaction in one state can have effects on the states. and if you study the history of the industry, there are specific examples and decided such as 2003 blackout period you'll sort of mentioned earlier today i believe by general hayden is that it's difficult to build a business case for cybersecurity. i have never been asked to act like to build a business case for cybersecurity. it is recognized within phi that it is a risk that needs to be mitigated, but no one ever challenged me for this ex-dollars spent we will

generate benefit because it doesn't lend itself to that type of discussion. we do when he to do to ensure the system is reliable and secure. so i think at some level the conversation at the state level, if it could be informed by a very clear and compelling federal vision about what they would like to see each utility across the country do, and what they would like to see each state commission get some clear guidance, a path to recovery for those investments i think would be very helpful. >> so a little different, three ious, little meaning. we have a little different issue when it comes to cost recovery because our rate cases don't go in front of public utility commission. they go in front of our customer owners. quite frankly, there's a conversation they're expecting us to be taking care of them. we are very much a community organization. what i would say, what i say in

how the program has been dealt another working with other communities can is where a insurance policy. we buy insurance for a lot of things. you might have rented a car and debate insurance in case of accident. what we need to be mindful of is not every vulnerability has to be mitigated. it is informed that it was no threat actor and the means of exploitation. i challenge folks to think about whether that vulnerability needs the mitigated or not. is that the right investment to make at that point in time? if we have a threat actor with the means to carry out, and if only the in which to exploit, that will cost some kind of catastrophic event. those are the only those that we need to invest a big those of the vulnerabilities, and i can stand in front of our board of directors, and very clearly tell them, that can happen if we don't do this. those of the rate cases that make a whole lot more sense to the american public, population.

putting that out there. >> i would just add, i agree that speed that wasn't earlier today. we are going live for more discussion with a look at the challenges states face. official state utility commission. this got underway about one minute ago. >> notably, the new president of naruc, is leading on this topic. we afford people from the state here to share more information with us. let me introduce all four of them first and then they will make brief comments and then we will go to questions and answers. on my immediate left is terry jarrett from the missouri public service commission. terry has been on the commission since 2007 and has long-standing interest in critical

infrastructure issues, and issues at the intersection between public safety and security, but also infrastructure issues. he has a long career as a distinguished attorney, was a legal adviser to his governor, was the presiding commissioner for administrative hearing commissions. and this one i love. he was honored as the most recent distinguished graduate award winner by the university of missouri, columbia school of law. next to him is carolene mays who is a commissioner from indiana, where she served since 2010. she's been very active on critical infrastructure issues and that's just idly taken over as chair of the critical infrastructure committee. she has an amazingly robust and diverse background. she's been in journalism and publishing. she has been a newscaster, and

my favorite is that she's been named as rising star in indiana politics in one of india's most influential women. next to her is mary-anna holden, was commissioned from new jersey. a place where resiliency, they know how to spell that word. she's been on the commission since 2011, and before joining appointed by governor christie, she had a distinguished career as a local public official in the city, or town of madison, new jersey, where she was, she had a quote distinction of chairing a co-chairing every, i want to say every damn committee. every committee and department in the baroque. she was mayor and city councilwoman for many years, and has a wide front of experience, including a masters in american art and architecture from manhattan college. and, finally, greg greg where he

worked on energy and transportation issues but greg has been involved in looking at a lot of questions at the intersection between resiliency, cybersecurity, whether related emergency response, clean energy issues. greg has been there since 2006. and before that was at the center for clean air policy, and has a masters degree from duke university, nicholas school. and so with that, terry, would you please begin? >> thank you, sue, for that kind introduction. one of the previous panels this morning made a good point that cybersecurity is mainly a people issue. and that reminds me of a story of an employee who was told that

he needed a password that contains eight characters. so that employee chose snow white and the seven dwarves. [laughter] spent it's not an original joke. i read that off the internet. >> i liked it. spent well, every day it seems that there is meet his outlets and forums are filled with stories, breached security at a bank or governmen a government . and yes, even utility sector is not immune from these. thankfully, the utilities industry has not yet been the victim of a major cyber attack. however, as many have said, it's not a question of if but when. so as a cyber threats evolve, we must make sure that we're doing everything we can to keep our system safe and reliable. over the next few minutes i would like to review what our

national association of regulatory utility commissioners, or naruc is doing on this issue, as was what we're doing in my home state of missouri. while cyber threats are a new and dynamic risk, it's important to note that regulators deal with numerous risks every day. from my perspective, a mutation is key between the different federal agencies, utility operators and regulators. all of them have a very unique role to play. so at naruc we're working actively to educate our own membership to the critical infrastructure committee, training, briefings, and other workshops. naruc screens and research department recently released an updated version of the naruc cybersecurity for state regulators, which is available on the naruc website and i encourage all of you to go to naruc's website and take a look at that. the grand scheme is writing a significant frequent flyer miles

by going out across the country and running seminars and training for our members. in fact, grant staff has visited 30 states to date. that's more than half the states in the united states. and their supplement this dream of holding several regional and national workshops at greece events throughout the year. for example, we had a very well attended workshop hosted by the department of energy at our naruc summer meetings in denver this past july. we also have a committee, a critical infrastructure committee, of which i am the former chairman, and commissioner mays is the current chairman, chairperson i should say. and this committee is dedicated to addressing cybersecurity and other critical aspects. we meet in person as a committee three times a year at our naruc meeting. we have twice monthly conference calls and a monthly newsletter to provide information to our members.

if there are two central themes in education were, they are asked questions and be proactive. no one expects utility regular to be an expert in the field of cybersecurity. but a well-placed question may motivate the development of a well-founded answer or spur a lagging utility to pick up the pace. questions about utility planning, standards, i.t. procurement practices and personnel policies will help us bring a greater understanding as to just how prepared they utility is. however, just ask questions is not enough. because regulators must determine what to do with the information and how such data impacts rate recovery for any cybersecurity investments. regulators must determine whether the money being invested in cybersecurity is enough or too much, and when it is being allocated properly. from there, regulars must help

prioritize these investments, along with all the other post spending in utility rates. in missouri, we have certainly steps of our cybersecurity efforts. in july of 2012, our commission opened a workshop docket and directed our regulated utilities to answer questions from the naruc trimmer i mentioned earlier. all of our utilities filed their reports, even though the questions were general and not intended to elicit confidential information, all the utilities filed their reports as highly confidential. so in november 2012, we held an on the record here in way or each utility did a short oral presentation, and then answered commissioner questions. lessons learned from opening the docket and having it on the record presentation, we found that companies were very reluctant to share information on a formal basis.

they were concerned about information given to us being released. it even goes as far as, for example, i was interviewed a local tv station after the on the record, and was asked whether our utilities, how are utilities were doing the with regard to cybersecurity. and answered generally, i thought they're doing a pretty good job. but to the back channels i heard that our utilities were a little upset with me for saying that, because they felt like i painted a target on their back and issued a challenge to hackers, making them more vulnerable to attack. so this is a very sensitive area for utilities. because of that, we have since decided to use an informal process in missouri. our staff is working with companies to develop informal

protocols and procedures to communicate on cybersecurity issues. we are always working to understand the risk. our basic duty as state regulars is make sure our utilities provide safe, adequate, and reliable service at just and reasonable rates. we already know that our greatest vulnerable to mother nature, reckless drivers, age and excavation damage, to name just a few. utilities and the regulators manage these risks every day, and although we'll never eliminate them, we did keep the lights on and the gas and water flowing 99.9% of the time. obviously the ramifications of a successful cyber attack on the utility system could be much greater than those of a car hitting an electricity pole. this is like utilizing a risk based approach for cybersecurity protection is so important. because it lets thand their rege how best to use rate payer money

for shoring up the greater ultimately, ma the additional budgetary cost to cyber secret will, before my state records were colleagues which is why we are now engaging within industry and learning up front about these risks, and potential costs. so to conclude my opening remarks, what these -- what you state regulars need to do? well, state regulars need to take proactive approach with our utilities on cybersecurity issues. we need to ensure that cybersecurity concerned cannot go unaddressed. we need strong communication between industry and government both state and federal. and we need to make sure that any justifiable cause to the grid against the cyber attack are recovered. ultimately, the more information we have, and the more data we have, we can get from each other the better off we will be in addressing cybersecurity. thank you, i look forward to your questions. >> thank you.

carolene? >> thank you, and good afternoon. i want to start by saying that we are so glad we're having this conversation. that there are various entities and agencies involved and that the door sticking occasion are opening across the scene, because we all have the same interest in safe, reliable and secure systems. cybersecurity threats challenge privacy, reliability, safety and the resiliency of critical infrastructure systems. and ensuring cybersecurity and protection of those critical assets is significant and important. and we know that work is being done, but we also know that there is not yet a cohesive approach or agreement on who should be doing what. state, federal government, utilities and industry need to recognize and respect that we all have a role in helping to

ensure critical infrastructure protection. in forums like this, open that dialogue. and help us better understand and respect that we all do have that vested state, and we're all in this together. none of us has the answer, or even all the tools to address the challenges of cyber protection. so we should be court navy and, building on lessons learned, and sharing best practices, ideas come and concerns. because we can all learn from and help one another. terry talked about the national association of regulatory utility commissioners, or naruc, as we fondly call them, and they have led the way and help set a foundation for state regulatory commission, and we're very grateful for that foundation that has been sent. because of this, cybersecurity is on the radar of all the commissions across the nation.

yes every state is different and we are at different places. but regardless of how much time, effort or resources are in place or are needed, we all understand that cybersecurity is important. and a state regulators we have a stake. because our role is to ensure that utilities provide safe, reliable and affordable services to consumers. part of that role is to ensure the security of critical cyber infrastructure. to make sure companies have cybersecurity in their field of focus and are taking measures to build resilient and prepare for recovery in the instant of an attack, and then inspiring them to meet gaps in the operation to in indiana as utility writers were commission, we have recognized the importance early to the work of naruc, and hosted a training meeting with regulators and staff from across the region.

that include the indiana department of homeland security, and the office of technology. and naruc's grants program, mild steel lead that force. since then, we have had continue discussions with various agencies like the department of homeland security, the fbi and experts in the field of cybersecurity. we have also open dialogue with indiana's electric utilities and regional transmission organizations which i want to just make a point that we do not regulate them. but we have a good open lines of communications and they're willing to openly talked with us. we have also moved those discussions and presentations into other sectors. beyond electric, w we're talking to gas, gas pipeline companies, communication, water, and wastewater companies also about cybersecurity efforts. these forums have allowed an open dialogue of cybersecurity

matters in a confidential setting in indiana. where utilities can give a general overview of their understanding and responsibility, as well as their effort toward preparedness, prevention, mitigation and recovery in the event of an attack. and outside of having a dialogue with the commission, these meetings open dialogs externally amongst the companies. when we initially sent out the questionnaire that did come from the primer that naruc put together, when we send that out and we requested them to come in and make presentation, there was a lot of pushback. because initially we asked them to come in and have their conversation with the other utilities presenters in the room with them. that's because of the sensitivity of the information. we understood that. we talked through it with them. and it was an area that i continued to push forward on.

because as has been mentioned over and over again today, one of the major concerns regarding cybersecurity in critical industry is a lack of collaboration and information sharing, but we also know that it is essential to protection against cyber threats. and in the end it was actually quite funny, because they all came up and thanked me. they were very grateful. they actually admitted that they learned things from one another. they were introductions made the most utility security personnel, and even plans made for benchmarking, sharing information, and for helping one another. that was a major feat. so not only has the commission learned from the utilities, but they are learning from one another, and determining that they can do more. the meetings also help the commission see that there are different levels of engagement effort, and made us aware of some of the vulnerabilities,

including where the work is completely voluntary with no direction. several states have met with electric companies and are looking at the cyber vulnerability of the grid. so there was dialogue during industry, dialogue earlier today during industry, during the industry panel regarding whether it would be better to have 51 state commissions making decisions, or one federal government making those decisions. i thought that was quite interesting observation. but i will say that we at the state level agree that there needs to be direction on the federal level, that protocols, clarity and consistency need to be in place. we believe there needs to be legislation, but, unfortunately, are being told an addressing evidence that there may not be any. and it's unfortunate. so we at the state commissions are moving ahead. we have to.

because we have to oversee costs recovery of prudent investment. so we are moving forward as states, not waiting on legislation or on mandates. we are asking questions, reviewing company plans, reviewing standards, protocols, and how they are assessing and mitigating risk and building resilience. then providing oversight and approval for prudence expenditures. this includes compliance and a broadened scope to include risk management costs. but then making sure those costs again are prudent, reasonable, and in the customers best interest. but there's a fine line. it's like walking a tightrope. while we've been able to justify cyber expanse and cost recovery, we have to do so without creating any vulnerability or breaches of confidentiality. i want to talk about this for a moment because it's not been talked about a lot today.

while the indiana commission is been able to convene closed, private meetings under a state code that allows for discussions of information and intelligence intended to prevent, mitigate, or respond to the threat of terrorism, it continues to prove to be a complex landscape. cases have been filed at the commission for critical infrastructure protection with a focus on cybersecurity, and as these folks go on the record, there's a concern with being able to protect the information because of open records law. these are issues that i've talked about today that we are discussing amongst is another with naruc and with external groups that have the same interest, cyber protection of our critical assets. thank you. >> thank you, carolyn. ana maria -- i just give you a new italian name, sort.

>> it happens many times. cybersecurity is one of the top topics, certainly with former element tom kean as the co-chair of this thing and former chairman of the 9/11 commission. governor christie who was u.s. attorney, took office, that office in the days following 9/11. they learn very early on that the sharing of information in any situation is extremely important. you have to keep critical information and silas. i could've told you if you just asked me. that's not good enough. shortly after governor christie took office, the new jersey board of public utilities opened a docket to talk about industrial control systems. and investigate the reliability of them. in october of 2011, 2011 being

sort of a watershed year for new jersey because not only were we dealing with cybersecurity, but we had a major blizzard, an earthquake, a director, we had hurricane irene, the trick-or-treat october hollowing snowstorm surprise, and then in the midst of this brought out an order asking to look at what the operational controls were within each of the electric distribution companies. it's set threshold that people had the need, and aztec elegy evolved to make it a more dynamic order, wanted to know who can assess within your structure, who can assess information, how wanted exceeding the levels of authorization, are you looking for things like weird

programming or unusual codes and commands backspacing extorting money? this is just sort of the benchmarks that we set and asked to come back with what they're reporting was. they also been set in place a procedure so that it's, as you've been saying many times today, it was baked right into reliability and security. not only within those institutions, but within the board of public utilities itself. instead of having just a cyber team in place, everyone that works in reliability and security is part of this cyber team. if an intrusion occurs, or penetration, it is being immediately, according to this board order, it is immediately transmitted to the director of reliability and security. from their it must be reported

to the office of homeland security and preparedness within six hours. so it becomes a very instantaneous operation of sharing information, and it falls under what we call the new jersey suspicious activity reporting system. this includes not only the new york office of the fbi, the new jersey state police, the new jersey state police cyber unit, and it's taken from there. and follows the nerc standards. we try to keep a dynamic, and as technology changes we make it to see, hopefully, that it is flexible. so that's not staying just within the parameters of the october 2011 board order. have to consider that new jersey is particularly sensitive, not only because we are trying to be

resilient and build for the future for natural disasters and recovery from them, and also consider the cascading effects it could have on financial institutions. many other data centers of wall street are located within new jersey. we are part of a very critical, concentrated load area, being so close, in such close proximity with the new york city, ports, airports, mass transit. huge public health institutions. and we talked about the interaction between the move of many of the generators, moving them being gas-fired, to how are you going to move water, how are you going to process water? it becomes a public health issue, so there's many cascading effects of intrusion, not only by nature intrusions by man. if you consider just one of the

utilities in new jersey, public service electric and gas, it's 1300 miles of transmission. and over 42000 gigawatt hours that they produce in electricity a year. the destruction to that can be catastrophic. and it certainly was in some cases where people lost power not necessarily in this area but across the board. there were four electric distribution companies, up to 12, 14 days without power. you can see, that can last over a month or more. it can be disastrous in this concentration of people. we found though tha that is very good, i think we're in very good shape, that our tabletop exercises that are done with inject, not only in natural disasters, but also in cyber disasters. sometimes there's a crossover of

the two. the pse&g in particular has its own local area network, so there's not internet connected at all through there, the rest of their control systems. and they do have a firewall in place to deny traffic. but for also emphasized the most important thing they can do is screen the personnel, train their personnel, and make their personnel aware. not only is this done at the pdc but it's also done at the gpu and require every staff member to take an online course and learn some of things you can see in the vulnerability or our own organization, as well as weekend seminars on homeland security, and a little disappointed in one of the seminars earlier, didn't talk about the cost would be.

pages grows exponentially the longer the show electricity is out, or long -- or as long as the system is down, how much cost. i know there was someone who came to talk to the board of public utilities and was actually able to quantify how much it could cost per kilowatt hour. i think it would be a fascinating way to help the utility regulators be able to sell, as it were, to the ratepayer some of the needs and build that business case for getting cost recovery to companies for building good cyber technology. one of the other items that come out of this one is of course inpatient people i guess in new york and new jersey, and people want their electricity turned on the when is it going to come on? why don't you know my

electricity is off? well, the more that we put in place to be able to tell that systems are off, and this is a huge load dropped because you don't have sensor censors and yt have smart leaders in place, the more things you put onto the system, and more moving parts, the more chance there is for penetration and born ability. even to the point where we would have to consider, well, why don't you know where your trucks are during the storm? don't you have mobile data terminals? is that another way to make your system vulnerable? so there are many moving parts that are going on in new jersey or it makes it a very exciting time at the board of public utilities, because not only are we dealing with natural disasters, but perhaps man-made. thank you. >> thank you. greg. >> thank you. and thank you, sir, and thank you to the bipartisan policy

center, joe and the staff for having us here today. and want to talk to you a little bit just a few minutes about cybersecurity and the relationship and the role of governors. as you know, governors are looking closely at cybersecurity and how they can help their states be better protected and better prepared to respond, and it involves working with agencies across the state governments as well as in coordination with the federal government, law enforcement and the private sector. and effective cyber suit as we talked about today, includes ongoing vigilance against threats and vulnerabilities. and from the perspective of governors, really it's a security issue as was an economic development issue. as was mentioned earlier by paul stockton, safety issue as well. some going to spend a minute or two talking a little bit about what states are doing to leverage their collective efforts, as was th their capaciy

and staff expertise, then talk about a resource center on state cybersecurity that the nga's just launched. this was coalbed by governor amounts of michigan and governor snyder ashman sorry, governor amount of maryland and governor schneider of michigan. i'll toggle bit more about it in a few minutes. first i wanted to just let folks know that the governors just met in milwaukee for nga summer meeting, ended on sunday, and cybersecurity was on that agenda. we held a special session to discuss nga's work on cyber resource center as well as discuss the issue broadly with governors. and so our outgoing chair of delaware, governor markell, noted that every state has been the target of a cyber attack, and these are throwing, growing in the threats. the threats are growing in

number and sophistication. and so really it's a question of not if but when there will be a coordinated attack. so from the perspective of governors at nga we see really that there've been efforts on the federal level of the dot gov and dot mil a rebuttal of states have not been explored as much. and at our session, in milwaukee, governor snyder of michigan spoke by video about this to say cyber posture, and just a couple of highlights from that, that presentation, that michigan is reorganizing its agency to sort of improve governance and to address cyber issued and to be more vigilant and more prepared. they have revamped cyber training for staff and they have dealt one cyber summit and another one isn't coming in october. they also have a cyber range to test and improve vulnerabilities, so a lot more

there to talk about. we can further talk about that later, or off-line. you know, likewise, maryland, cybersecurity for maryland is an emerging sector of innovation. it's also a key component of its efforts. i think this is something we also see a cross states. states are investing in education and training, so students can pursue cyber careers. maryland has a cybersecurity center. they're working with nist on a cyber center of excellence, and has $3 million tax credit to accelerate job growth in the sector. and likewise, delaware is also working in conjunction with maryland in fact on cyber training and just graduate student from the cyber can't. this is again something we see a cross states. ..

look at ways to collaborate. it's a multifate policy effort that will address the consequences of the rapidly evolving and threats faced by law enforcement agencies, financial sector, communications, and the public. and so the resource center will seek to inform the roles state policy can and should play ensuring adequate cyber policy for state-owned infrastructure.

it's cuts across the sector we've been talking about as well as the energy sector. there are principles that are guiding this effort, you know, one of -- of which is promote a common understanding across the system, and technologically neutral, and really -- again looking at this to help inform states. two resources that are in the works, and i i want to mention briefly; one, putting out a dash board that will allow states to, you know, kind of understand where they're at and look at assist red i didness at the glance. in addition, a called action will be released. it provides a list of actions governors can take right away to improve their state's cyber posture and focus on state-run systems. there are a number of other areas that we'll be exploring. you know, the key focuses is

collaboration, how state can leverage their state asset including fusion center and exploring the interdependency between systems including energy. one of the subcommittees on the resource center is energy systems and infrastructure as well as others on fusion centers state and federal role that coordination issue we've talking about, and education in the work force. and i just would like to mention that edison electronic institute and american gas association are part of the effort, and as we thank them for that, and we have also nga worked quite a bit with naruc and we look forward to doing that as well. governors are very interested in looking what they can do at the state level, how they can coordinate between states and with the federal government, and to help, you know, build out the

tools and start to identify policies and best practices they can take to, you know, sort of break silo and to advance efforts in the area. so thank you very much. >> thank you. [applause] that's to all of you. [applause] i'm going welcome questions from the audience. i want to begin with one. it's try to wave together some of the themes we've heard over the course of the day with regard to the business case for resiliency in the face of cyberthreat, and jurisdictional issue as we think about things that are quite local and subject to state review and state concerns, and what we've heard about the national interest in cybersecurity. let me just throw out a couple of area of dimension as you think about this. one of them is this theme we

heard this morning from the industry panel that there so much what is involved with cybersecurity where systems are interconnected, there are effects that go beyond one electronic system grid and its customers. in a classic way, there are those billow reeffects on somebody else. and the largest sense we've heard about them being in the nation's interest. national security issues associated with cyberthreats of certain types in particular. so that tends to make you think that you would gravitate toward a national approach, national standards, national considerations, but certainly it wouldn't necessarily take you, would it, to a national cost recovery mechanism? i'm saying those things deliberately. i think you'll have some interesting things to say. and we also heard the industry folks talk about the many ways

in which the culture of resill -- resiliency has to be built in to everything that is done. the way you hire people, the way you -- you mentioned making sure that you have a system that has lots of protocols in place, and those are not literally investments of the sort that you would see go in to rate base or something else. of course, software and hardware might. really, those are a lot about processes and ways of doing business as opposed to assets that are hard that people are bringing forward to you for cost recovery. so as you think about this, and you are from states, how do you think about this from a point of view of how do you know what is prudent when there are all of these benefits that go way beyond the customer's of a particular utility who have to

pay for in particular utility activities? who would like to begin? i had my own yes. -- question. [laughter] >> i will attack that first, sue. >> great. >> one of the ways i found helpful to look at this, you know, as a state regulator, everything we do, really, is a planning act. you know, essentially what we do is balance the needs of our rate payers with the needs of the utilities, you know, we want our utilities to have the resources they need to provide safe and reliable, adequate service. we want our rate payers to pay reasonable rates so that means obviously we have to balance those things. the missouri public service commission is celebrating it's

100-year anniversary this year. we have been regulating utilities for a long time. we know our utilities, better than anyone else. we know what the needs of our utilities are. i think we are in the best position to take look at and review and judge what it is they need to do to make their facilities more resilient, have the ability to recover quickly from manmade or natural disasters. so i think one of the things we really understand as states are the vulnerability of our utilities. i think where the federal government has special expertise is in threats, and assessing threats. i think there is a difference between threats and

vulnerabilities, and the federal government is uniquely situated to assess threats, and learn of threats. they have the intelligence apparatus in place to find out about threats, and i think that's -- when i talked about communication, why communication between states, federal, and the industry is key. the federal government can inform us about what threats are out there, and then, i think regulators and the utilities together can assess the specific vulnerabilities of those utilities and come up with ways to take care of those, to address those in a reasonable manner that is effective as well as being reasonably priced for our consumers. >> thank you.

>> that was a big question. i agree with terry regarding the federal government and the state. i will say that we -- at the states will continue to have to focus on the cost recovery mechanism. i said to paul stockton, we were talking after that panel and the discussion came up, i said could you imagine on a federal level them having to see every utility -- electric utility come in for cost recovery? that's not going to happen. as we don't do that, you ask a question about what we look at. we can't look at -- this is something we're learning as we're getting these cases in, we can't look at every nut and bolt and how much was spent on every single piece that was put in place. but what we can look at are

things like the decision-making procedures that take place within the company. the management procedures, the protocols, the thought processes behind them, the cost-benefit analysis that was put in place in making those decisions when it comes to cost recovery. that's going to be important for us to look at. it's going to be important for us to look at as we balance the cost for the rate payer, but it is also going to be important for us to look tat that way from a privacy, and confidentiality -- from that regard. because if we can have on the record where every single piece of security mechanism is within a company, it really -- i believe, i think we all believe here -- can jeopardize the security of that company, and so we can't look at those pieces. we have to look at it from a

general, broad overview. i do -- i do want to -- there was another part of your question, i'm trying to remember what it was. it was a pretty big question there. but there are spillover effects. we have to continue to communicate amongst one another. i think that's why it's important for those electric companies to communicate with one another as well, and communicate with us and communicate with the federal government. i know, there has been a major concern with companies giving information to the federal government, and hopefully we get to a point where that communication can take place at some level, but it is definitely important for the federal government to provide information back to the companies and to the commissions

and to the other agencies involved regarding the security the threats that are taking place. >> thank you. others? >> i would like to say in new jersey one of the things i found is to be a successful is talking among utilities. for instance, in the new jersey utility association, the sharing of ideas, tackling complex issues, perhaps behind closed-doors but doing across utility. so the same cyberthreat in the water utility is in the electric. how they are dealing with it, and sharing of ideas not necessarily granular information. it's very important. the same thing with venders. and vetting venders before they are hired or have access to the systems. they are also simple things that done as far as the personnel-wise. car key access.

who has access to what information? what other resources is cameraing of areas and physical protection of things. these are things that can be done on utility level. if it's something that the board of utilities is going require, then i would say yes, that's probably a good case for asking for cost recovery. it's something they would expect in your normal daily business. some things are going to be over for cost recovery. some things will be good business management practice i for their own benefit. that's the balance that we have without looking to say well federal government is going to come in and help us. it's something you can look yourself within your own state. >> can i just say something real quick before greg answers? ii remembered the point i wanted to make. we at the state regular regulatory commission understand our role, we're not trying to

step on the tows -- toes of the other agency. we realize we have a role on the front end and the back end of these threats. on the front end and on the back end, when it comes to cost recovery, and oversight and approval of expenditure. if something were to happen, we recognize we are not going to be involved in the day-to-day part of helping that utility or the grid come back up. we hopefully had in place the cost recovery mechanisms to help them build in security in their system, and tbhild resiliency and on the back end to help them recover. >> thank you. greg? >> quickly, i don't have any comment on cost recovery, but specifically. but i think the idea that governors can help broker collaboration within the state, and perhaps with the federal government as well.

i think the other point -- sort of along the lines is really the idea of, you know, governor's also sort of -- and through the resource center sort of sharing best practices and what is working well. there are fifty shots at this or fifty different approaches, i should say, and, you know, there are lessons to be learned in every case. i think we can hopefully share some of that information. >> as a former utility regulator, i'm very familiar with the fact often one finds that you have to open a docket on each topic that comes along. so you may have a docket on putting aside rate cases. you might have a docket on smart grid investment. or you might have a docket on what do you want do about distributed generation? you might have a docket on cybersecurity, but when you think about those things, those particular ones, smart grid,

distributed generation, and cyber issues. they actually might be connected to each other. the more there are wig et on the grid and the more there's a lot of software. the more places for potential intrusion could be occurring. how do you avoid having your decision making take place in silo so you are really looking at the sending signal to in the utility and other investors to make sure you have a resilient system at the end of the day. including one are where in a lot of states customers want solar panels. i know, that's in new jersey, and they want to be able to disconnect and operate when there's a storm with smart capabilities. how do you think about those things that are across the silos that have to be built? >> we certainly made through the

testing and the storms the last few years, and one of the things i know that our governors very much interested is distributed generation, and part of -- if i can sort of turn it around, one of the dockets that was opened is looking at, you know, building a redundant system, building a stronger system, and taking that huge docket and trying to break it down at the small one. saying where are your critical loads and areas that need to be strengthen, redundant, buried? where does backup generation have to be? where is it now? where are the gas stations that are along the evacuation routes in critical load areas that will need to have gasoline distributed to them first before others? you know, it's more moving parts than solar panels, which we have over a gig georgia watt now in

new jersey. it's more than combined heat and power. all the pieces have to fit in to one big energy picture, and that was the beauty of 2011, the energy master plan coming in to place for new jersey, because it sort of had an open discussion and hearings and now it's breaking down each one of those topics and how do each of the different sectors sit in to that master plan? but that is, again, the sharing of information among utility. i sals -- also say that after 9/11 each of the utility sector, for instance, the water utility has the own sector that meets not only across department of energy, the department of environmental protection, homeland security, the various you utilities of communications

staff and looking at critical issues in each of their departments, how they crossover. now it's taking them and tieing each one of those sectors together. that's what our reliability staff tries to do at the barbecue. and are we missing any opportunities to open a generic docket or is in something specific that need to be difficult with? >> thank you, terri? >> i think you hit on an important point here, and it has to do with overall planning. i think as regulators, and as commissions, a lot of times whenever some issue pops up, a new issue or something that hasn't been looked at before, sort of our reflects of regulatory response is let's open a workshop. that's not always the best solution. in missouri, we have the advantage where traditional rate making state. we have vertically integrated utility. we have a pretty robust

integrated resource planning process. i think that's one area where all of these types of issues can be addressed. if you have that sort of overall integrated resource-type planning process. but yeah, i think it's a problem for state commissions is that we tend to want to open up a lot of workshops on a lot of issues. it's easy to get lost in the details, and lose the big picture. >> thanks. >> i just want to quickly say you started your question talking about docketed cases, and what i'm finding is so many states are different. just to even have a conversation with a utility there are some states that have open a docket. in indiana that's not the case, thank goodness. for us the work workshops have really served us really well.

to be able to have conversations that are somewhat informal -- they might take a formal tone. they are informal because they are not necessarily on the record. , but then we can learn and ask questions. they can ask questions of us and have the open dialogue. then we learn how they are crossing sectors or how the issues are crossing sectors. so we are doing things beyond the cybersecurity conversations. we have summer reliability meetings and winter reliability meetings so we can make sure that the resources are available for consumers, and those have been quite helpful for us regarding cybersecurity what restarting to see, though, is these companies come in, the utilities are beginning to file docketed cases for the requirements to fulfill those,

and so we are very grateful that we were able to have these conversations with them initially. ask very general questions, questions and understand that we have to keep that 10,000-foot view. we're not trying to micromanage they do. we need to make sure that the processes they are putting in place are prudent and reliable, but not gold-plated. >> you know, in the electric industry we have a lot of metric. we have reserve environment. some percentage of mega watts. we have tests for cost-effectiveness of energy efficiency. each state has its own approach. you have your customer service safety x yz about how long it takes to get service restored. what is the best that you have seen in terms of the metrics for cyber resilience? have you seen any that work?

>> i ask a question of a panel at our last meeting that same question, you know, how we know when enough is enough? how do we measure when enough is enough? that's a very, very difficult question. i think it goes back to balancing we do balancing every day, you know. how hard is our testimony. how much should we hardin our system for natural disasters? and so forth. our utilities have been doing that for years. the cyber year sort of presents a new paradigm, i think for regulators. i think as carolene explained very eloquently. we can't look at the nuts and bolts. we have to look at this as a

management process. we have to look at the decision making process. the overall philosophy the buy in from the ceo on down. and the board of directors on down. is there a culture of cybersecurity? i've heard some you utilities have talked about treating their cybersecurity programs like their safety programs, you know, developing a safety culture is very similar to developing a cybersecurity culture. so, again, i think it's as far as metrics go it's very difficult, i think, in the cyber arena to come up with the measurement metrics. we have to take a more holistic view a more general view and a more sort of operational view. it's really a business operation question a lot more than it is a hardware software question. >> i think it's very hard to

measure because you can have one successful attack, and maybe have -- in one case of a rather large utility nationally they had 30 million probes and scans a day they block. so all that is blocked versus one that gets through it's almost the reverse. you really can't look at averages and say that's good enough. just one getting through isn't good enough. >> greg, what are the governors saying about their exec -- expectations for preparedness or restoration or some other things that they really are saying are bottom line? >> right. i think for governors, as mentioned early, safety is, you know, the primary issue to safety of citizens, and so, but within that you know what is that include? i think governors are talking

about a lot about the culture of resilience, and how can, you know, they continue to sort of work as conveners and collaborators across the agencies and regulatory bodies and continue to, you know, discuss cyber as an ongoing challenge. so i think it's, you know, about get -- playing the role of a convener and educator. and continuing to sort of, you know, use the governor's culprit to make that message. >> thank you. >> i think too, the sip requirements are helpful in that regard. the federal government just having some basic standards in place is very helpful. i will say -- i can't speak for every state. i know, many of us in our states are learning as we go. one of the things i would love to see is to have some help or

funding federal government folks that are here. with the to -- state to help us in educating our staff, or bring in educate staff. i had heard this statement, i think it was congressman mike rogers made the statement that dod was hiring 4,000 cybersecurity experts, and i don't know how reliable that number is knowing how -- it may just be a wanted number. i don't know if it's an actual number they're going to do that hiring. i would love to see with numbers like that for every state to be allocated one of those people to come in and help our governors' offices and utility commissions or other areas where critical assets in place. >> i'm going to use that as a segue to just check one more time to see if there are other questions from the audience, and if there are not. i'm going ask you guys a final

question. the final question is similar to the one that i think kurt asked earlier, which was if you had three or four things you were saying are the critical things that are advice to regulators, just states. what would they be? ♪ [laughter] >> okay. i just said one. >> there is money from washington. education, and have people in place. >> good. >> and legislation to help us to protect this confidential information. >> that's federal legislation, or legislation in each state? >> i believe it's going to take federal legislation for the open-record laws across the country. >> really? >> i do. i would love to see it in the states, but yes? >> others? greg.

>> it's a good question, and i would like that ending to let us pontificate a little bit. i guess i think really for governors, you know, maybe sounding slightly like a broken record, i think there are issues that can help on in term of work force and training. i think there's an opportunity there, you know, as well as providing the information that is out there, sharing tools and sharing what states are doing. and the resource center that we're just launching really is the design to share lessons across sectors, and interdependency, and to, you know, help, you know, states coordinate within their own sectors as well as within state agencies and between state agencies. >> thank you. >> i think between state agencies is really an important one. i think there's an education process that needs to be made with the customer, the rate

payer. they are going to be some treadoff for the things -- trade-off they want for the privacy they may give up. many people say i don't want smart meters in my home. i want you to know when my electricity is out. i want you to know when there's water leaking in the house. i don't want you to know when i'm running the water. we have all kinds of arguments. people don't understand that just a little think they are getting coupon at local drugstore is probably giving out more information than the smart meter is giving them. at the same time every time you turn on the cable tv. everything you flick through, stop, watch, whatever. how do you think they can fix your cable from a remote location? they know what is going on. you are giving up that privacy. i think that has -- there has to be an explanation of that to be able to knit and clean up some of the systems and

putting protections and sensors in place. we have to really educate the public what the things truly do. not to be fearful of them, but to be knowledgeable of them. >> thank you. >> well, i think the sectors -- sesame street word of the day is "partnership." i think the cybersecurity issue addresses the importance of the good and robust partnership between state, regulators and state government, federal agencies, the utilities, and even the consumer advocates in the states we all have unique roles to play. we need to coordinate with each other to make sure that we are re-- moving the ball down the field together in a coordinated way. so that we don't step on each

other's toes. we don't, you know, we zig when we should zag. partnership, partnership, partnership. >> thank you. you all traveled a very long way to come you today. thank you very much. we really appreciate it. [applause] i think we are going to end by thanking all of you for coming today. this has been an incredibly worthwhile conversation we've had. i share carolene's perspective it's really been a great dialogue. many of you have taken a lot of time of your work lives to come here. i know, i can speak on behalf of the bcp to say it's been useful to us as we have been trying to gather information. you highlighted a number of issues, both on this panel and throughout the day. and we will be holding another workshop --

no, we're not holding another workshop. you don't have to do that. we'll be working through the summer and with many stakeholders as we move forward to develop a paper on this. as you heard earlier this morning. thank you very much for your attendance safe travels. [applause] [applause] [inaudible conversations]rsatns]

[inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] each day this week while congress is on recess we bring q & a. today the codirector of the documentary a look at detroit's decline in the auto industry, and the lost of more than half

of detroit's population as a result. at 8:00 p.m. eastern booktv in prime time. to be the the -- tonight the to focus is on the book fairs from the last year. i'm not some sort of antisuburb person who thinks that everyone needs to live in new york city and, you know, i was very sensitive to cometting across as -- coming across as a escaped coffee sip, with elitest of some kind. that's not why i did the book. i understand why people people like the suburb. i get fed up with daily life in new york city a lot. i was drawn, the trends were so undenialble. the fact there's a shift in the way the suburban america is perceive bid the people who live

there is too big of story ignore . sunday night at 9:00 on after words. part of booktv this weekend on c-span2. two senior u.s. senators have urge -- today's comment came after john mccain lindsay graham met with top civilian leaders as part of international effort to resolve a standoff with the president. yesterday we covered discussion. the middle east institute and the johns hopkins school host this hour and a half event. [inaudible] [inaudible conversations]

welcome to you all. i want to urge those in back to come up. there are lot of seats up front, if you want them. it's really a great honor to moderate today's panel. these are two serious experts on the question of religion and politics. he's a professor of religious study at the university of california at santa barbara. a scholar of islamic law and modern egyptian law. i asked him just before the event what he did in the last life to deserve being a professor at santa barbara, which is certainly one of the best things that can happen to you. professor jonathan brown is professor at georgetown. among other things his research focuses on conflicts between

sunni traditionalism. as he mentioned, this session was conceived before the july 3 coup. i call it a coup. but takes on an additional significance with the egyptian army's removal of president morsi from power. professor brown will focus on the muslim brotherhood and reactions to his ouster. how it will effect their thinking about politic and religion. how it will effect their thinking about democratic engagement. professor will broaden the focus a bit to how the morsi episode will shape islamist ideology and egyptian attitudes more broadly. i hope he also takes a peek at the reaction beyond egypt's borders and how recent events

might affect u.s. policy. some of you will know our own dean has commented recently. i'll monitor. so without further ado, let me ask professor brown to take the podium, and start us off. we'll have a q & a session at the end. >> thank you very much for inviting me. i think the last time i spoke at one of the events was in november at the conference at the annual conference. it's very different atmosphere, very different setting. i want to -- first, i want to preface by saying that obviously events that are takes place in egypt are tremendous. there's a huge amount of suffering. when we look at an let call lens

it can seem snide. it's important to remember there are real people that suffer. from an an let -- analytical perspective, i would probably choose the phase of the best laid plans of mice and men as a good way to lens to which to view the islamist experience from 2011 until today. despite that, i'm actually optimistic about the future. first, let's rewind to the aftermath of the 2011 oust of mubarak. it's a very interest timing for islam iist group, it's a dynamic group. across the spectrum from the islamist group from the one party on end and the moderate muslim brotherhood. and you see the same question presented to the organizations. what is going to be your

organization's relationship to political involvement? and this is phrased in a way, in the question are you going have a political party or not? what is -- if so, what is the relationship with the political party going to be to be your religiouses or. it does teaching, social services, it does medical work, it does legal work, et. cetera, you do the civil society activities. if you're going to be getting involved in politic what is the relationship between the political wing of your organization and the actual core organization? what you see is that in the case of the muslim brotherhood and the case of the -- they -- the voices that say we should -- we are religious organizations we are civil society organizations, we are not political organizations. those voices lose out. these go whole hog, excuse the expression, in to political

activism. the fact that the muslim brotherhood creates freedom of justice party is simply illegal. they can't actually be a political party. it's not independence entity. it takes direction from the muslim brotherhood guidance counsel. interestingly, the one group that i think approached this issue from a very they are reciprocally cities -- sophisticated point of view and came up with the best model of the core organization and the future political ring was the inure party. the political manifestation of the al salafi organization. the most popular salafi organization. they had a organization that they would draw on the support of the salafi organizations. but it would be completely separate.

if things took a turn furp the worse, like let's say military coup it could be at no cost to the original religious organization. now what is very interesting if you look over the next two years, you see a lot of close calls. fall victim to sometimes very tragic circumstance. when the freedom of justice party when the muslim brotherhood is presented with a question of whether they are going to run presidential candidate, the -- at first, the general body of the organization votes against running presidential candidate. it was only after several rounds of voting in which the forces who was unquestionably the most powerful person in the organization. it's only when those forces who really committed to running a

presidential candidate e -- keep calling more rounds of voting and wringing in supporters to make sure everybody is there to pass a vote. especially in their favor. escaped -- eventually you get a close vote to a presidential cat. that's when one could argue the muslim brotherhood's fate was sealed at least as political party in the egypt in the present day. if they won the election, as nathan brown, one success is not an option. i think that's the title. success was never going to be an option. when you commit yourself totally knowing you are going fail, it creates a serious of questions for the future of your organization. similarly, there's a tragic moment with the party despite the well designed party and the salafi religious organization, the personalities for in charge

of who play a leading role in the salafi call religious organization are simply too strong to be contained. they despite the fact they are no formal position or roll role in the political party, they sort of exceed the balance of the religious organization, and they in effect directing political activism. this is especially the case for maybe one of the most influential salafi in egypt. and so what happens with the party is actual that very well-designed political structure starts crumbling as you have the chairman of the party resigns in the fall of 2012. and really, you can trace this sort of decomposition of the party up until the present day. so the party today is really a shell. it's simply a shell that --

it doesn't provide islamists for the post true government of cc. it is -- from supporting the military's action, and the leadership of the party is no longer actually willing to support the crackdown of the military on the islamist protesters in cairo and other places. if the -- it's to the extent some of the officers have closed down and they have joined other parties. escaped is issuely other islamist parties that are supportive of the muslim brotherhood. i think the party is not going to be a force to reckon with in any independent way in the future. now what about the present situation? we're obviously at point of intense crisis. there's been so much focus on what were the number of people

that came out june 30th, how many people were supporting the coup, et. cetera, et. cetera. we have to also pay attention to what is happened since then. the numbers since then. we have to remember that ram it's almost over. it's very hot, and people have throughout the country -- not only in especially the square in cairo and near cairo university, and other proverbial areas have throughout the month come out in protest and sit in in support of president morsi, but really in support of law and order. meaning law and order. legalness for the rule of law. they have come out in support of this. and i think if you --

my guess if you were to count from the people who had come out in support of law and order and president morsi, you probably would find that it's million and million. since it happened. this complicates things tremendously. because now it's not one side. it's not just one side of the equation of the egyptian people have spoken and they want morsi and the muslim brotherhood gone. if that were the case, the situation would be easier. it wouldn't be easier for the muslim brotherhood, the options would be more limited. the fact they have actual that morsi's cause enjoyed so much popular support, and remarkably broaden forces. i don't, i mean, if they haven't had mobs of liberal and secularist politicians coming to support them. there have been former mubarak judges that have gone to the

square and said having seen what happened i support your cause. what does it mean nor the current situation? the government -- the military, and the transitional government has a problem which is the people won't go home. the numbers are increasing. what do you do? either you go and tanks and water cannons and kill and arrest people. and hope they don't come back, or you simply have to kill more and more people until nobody comes back. they are terrified or dead. there's very big question, in my mind, as to whether the egyptian government, the egyptian people, and the international community most important have the stomach for further bloodshed. we've had several hundred people killed already. i think the kind of crackdown that would force the sit in to end would be something that killed thousand and thousand of people. i'm not sure there's going to be the kind of support in the international community for that. on the other hand, the muslim

brotherhood and the islamist support the morsi from morsi cause have big problem they have so much support, and the platform on which they have stood consistently from the very beginning of the anticoup activism has been the call for return to the constitution, return to law and order, return to rule of law, return to democratic process. i think is very ironic. which i was in graduate school and undergraduate everyone asked is islamist democracy compatible. i have never heard the word law and order mentioned more times than any islamist discourse. very ironic considering the way questions used to be phrased. the problem is, if they -- if the muslim brotherhood leadership decides this isn't working, we need to acknowledge that the coup is a legitimate fact. we need to acknowledge that the government is legitimate and go home and get back to the medical

clinic and things like that. first of all, they're going get arrested. certainly the senior leadership in jail. if not it will be worse. second of all have been having shown during the month in power. having exposed so much of their networking and activity and capabilities to the blight of day or the other part of the government. they are more vulnerable than they were before. the protest of mubarak. they are going to be in a position of potentially complete elimination. in addition, if having stood on these -- the argument for law and order, these very principled stance, if they say okay actually it's legitimate. we're wrong. we're going home. not only are they going under threat of liquidation. they'll have lost all of their legitimacy. i think the big question whether or not the muslim brotherhood as in the current form would

continue to be a real force in the egyptian politic. i think that the islamists of centerment in egypt and the bro -- prolaw and order would have to find other homes to exist in. other sort of networkings to exist in. it wouldn't be the muslim brotherhood networking that exists under the current leadership structure today. what are possible ways forward? the problem is that the two sides in this impasse are so far apart. the military/government says in order for us to accept -- in order for you to be safe, quote, unquote, 0 to go home and continue the islamist nonpolitical activity. you need to accept the legitimacy of the coup and accept the government as legitimate. that's not going happen, i think, from the muslim brotherhood and the supporters cannot make that concession. the muslim brotherhood and the

supporters are saying you need to accept that morsi still is legitimate president, and acknowledge that this coup was not legitimate. it seems unlikely or certainly very difficult for the egyptian military and leadership and current in-term government to acknowledge this. i think there is some hope for the future; however, and initiatives being presented by people like mohammad and some of the egyptian islamists leaning intellectual that are proposing things like, okay, morsi returns to power simply in a transitional role. the constitutionality of the democratic process can be preserved. he immediately hands over power to powerful prime minister and some level of group of thug prime ministers or w prime minister who represent some national unity government, parliament tear elections are

held, and the egyptian political future proceed. and a democratically constitutionally legitimate fashion. i think obviously there's no possibility for morsi to actually return to power in mean ingful way. this would simply be the comprise that the military and government acknowledging that sort of returning to the constitutional democratic process to comprise the muslim brotherhood and say we're out of power for now. i think, if we go back to that original sort of moment of decision making in the spring of 2011, about whether or not islamist organizations should be involved involved in politics, i think the answer resoundedly from this point out, from the islamist organizations is going to be absolutely not. i think probably one of the -- initiative like this succeeds that one of the -- i don't know if it will be

condition. certainly one of the results would be the retreat from political activity for some long period in the future. thank you very much. [applause] >> thank you very much. professor. >> okay. i think jonathan did everything that could be done, so i could chat about something else. egypt today -- the egyptian population is characterized by division, confusion, and the willingness to go from one extreme to another. in a relatively short period of time. now the history of this, i mean,

you can always do a lot of things with history. modern egyptian history is fantastic drama. i can go back to the 200 years ago and find some precedence or some of the things that are happening today, but there's no question that the history over the last three years have the most impact about what is going on today. the sources of division -- actually go back to the initial uprising. country -- one question i thought was not raised sufficiently and not addressed sufficiently was why does the initial uprising happen. it's 0 obvious. we know why it happened. there were so many problem. tell me in detail, what did the majority want? of course the uprising isn't one thing. it people were willing to go from day one and people willing to go from week one or week two. there were a lot of people who watched the revolution and thought they were part of it.

so forget about the international scene for a second, i'll go back to danielle's -- daniel's any insight the united might dpraw -- draw from this. the division has to do with how the initial uprising was interpreted differently. people really saw in what they wanted from it. i think that's legitimate for individuals participating in the society. it becomes problematic when they are supposed to be leader and they speak in the name of other people. so the division goes back all the way. the willingness to go to extreme, it's important and i'm sure a lot of people have done it. look at how people look at the army. they liked it very much in february of 2011, i was personally surprised. they disliked it very much. the majority did by may 2012,

they liked it very, very much by june/july. then they could dislike it again, if you runny one -- run one of these hypothetical. i think jonathan ran it. what if the army calculates a small number in maybe a 1,000 would die and they end up being wronged by 5,000. they kill 5,000 or something. it's not improbable that it will change the history of the sixteen months between february of 2012 and -- 2011 and june of 2012 come back. the people are vulnerable. the confusion added to the -- it results naturally in a way. people look at themselves. they ask helps i'm not sure about this. what are my sources of information? do i have access to good information?

some are fine with that. some people are not fine with that. i think the confusion is definitely older than the last month or two. .. and these are little republics within the republic. people are just happy to be -- to look a certain way, to dress a certain way. they like to grow up because they're so happy. they're comfortable. then they don't talk to other

people the same way, and that is one expression. they do think of it as a political expression. that has already been good actually. we will continue maybe for a lot of people who will settle this so. gasol modern game of democracy and someone just is not for ross. i the comfortable, happy? i want to feel that i can fill more of my religious obligations within my community and avoid the outside world that is a bit too harsh and me. some of them go back and forth. that is the regime, the parameters. if we're asking about the islamist actors, of course some of them might think about -- well, this is a hard question because the question i keep asking myself, to what extent did the egyptian society change, as in the changed in a way that, you know, irreparably so, i cannot go back, for example, to

accepting the news about jailing people. cannot go back to us accepting the news about people just being killed. in college, of course, in the 80's and early 90's. right in front of cairo university. someone got killed, and we saw the blood. the police were chasing somebody had killed him on a motorcycle. we saw that. what did we do? some people were so afraid and just went back home. the 2011 do something different? easy something like that, terrified. but is cheap. but is now normal. is that turnout? i can't think that he is usually wrong. i don't know of the society of society changed. i am leaning toward it did not change sufficiently that a

return to this would be impossible. a degree of what used happened in the past. keep looking out. they happen. i can give you the evidence and the 19. but before the assassination. the whole or one society was hesitated. 1919. a broken promises of president wilson. self-determination. i don't mean that i'm going to fight an empire for you. people and that this is the way the world. the agitation tends to go down. again, could be seen suspiciously but looked suspiciously from a political science point of view, but i keep thinking that some acceptance of what is going on will happen.

political energy will run out. back to my question. islamist actors will react differently to whenever inclusion of the current situation. some will go back to their enclaves. some have belonged to the muslim brotherhood believes for a while that this triumph is possible and nastiest it is difficult to. active individuals. but some cannot help themselves. some people want to go back and run for city council, governor, one of the governor countries administratively divided. and the legislative bodies. if they get an offer to be on the executive authority there will still accepted because they will think of it as something given to them as individuals. i think this is essentially what the goal on the argument and the liberals is now.

great if they come back to participate in politics and loose. they concede -- succeed as individuals but not as a group. it was really that moment when people realize that i can win a national law actions. that was a discovery. they started to behave differently. so the question before system may grow back. i am thinking that there wealth, not exactly to the same point but to something that is a hybrid of the side that people have now been something else that is a little more sustainable. the society is divided and confused, and this can go on for a while. this is one set of discoveries of realizations, but there are other things that really moved everybody in that direction, not necessarily a more understanding the settling down. how about accepting the you

understand? why you have to understand everything. the west of the united states. it is hard. the common wisdom is as we agreed in our conversation before, you get more by doing less. it can be done in an intelligent way. i think talking in certain contexts always hurts, but, you know, i misunderstood. i don't really -- i don't think that i should have an incentive to explain because sometimes that provides additional misunderstanding. i know that as a teacher sometimes everything, i am the master of every situation. sometimes we introduce materials to the students that are just beyond the capacity. i discover a week later that they have not done the reading in the this is not happening. one temptation is i will fix

this in 30 minutes, give you the basics. i'm the master of this topic. it does not usually work like that. people need time. and also, misunderstanding by itself least a further misunderstanding talking less, doing less. i really don't know anything about the hidden past of diplomacy and politics. but i recognize netball it is a moment of suspicion. the egyptians now really, if they hear somebody, they said their allies of americans. this is irrational. this continues, you know, you don't benefit from getting to be part of this. i have no idea, of course, about the actual long-term plans. but some of mind the best to do is always to less and make it sound as if i don't have, you know, to deal with some of these

details. and, in fact, they are being determined by the population. this is a very strange moment in history books. if you think about the history of democracy, it is that analysts work to allow property owning for e-mails come together and they vote board is the institutions that are very controlled and as usual, a lot of factors outside of the election, markets, political oligarchies. the interesting idea people coming out, but it is just, the numbers are different, millions. what do you do feel the city that is big enough that hundreds of thousands year and hundreds of have thousands here. it is new. it is different.

so for an outsider and the united states is still an outsider. there is no reason to pretend you understand what you don't understand, and there is no reason to take the position of the teacher and saw a problem that occurred over weaker to in the course of a class by solving it in 20 minutes. take a deep breath, take your time, maybe learn something about what is going on to figure always going on. thank you. >> thank you. [applause] if i have anybody still standing in the back, there are some seats up front. don't be shy. come here. i am going to open the q&a section with a question of my own to both of the speakers. it is a subject on which you did not really touched in any depth.

the question of -- or should i say the potential for people to react in a violent direction. disappointed in democratic politics, some people, i imagine, my say, well, you know, this does not work for us. maybe something else will. do you have a sense that that might be happening in egypt today? do you have a sense that reaction with spread more broadly in the islamic world? >> i would say that, first of all, anything that happens in the sinai would have to -- the sinai is always a special creature in egypt. violence there is not necessarily indicative of really the violence. that being said, from the very

beginning of the anti to, was surprised me, you saw a lot of the most extremist and people who are part of g organizations, people that were formally terrorists just come out of prison saying, we reject violence, not trying to buy back. even if they come and kill us, we will not kill people. and rule of law. that is interesting. there is not then any evidence that i have seen to contradict that this really is the dominant theme and course of action that people have chosen to take. however, let's say the muslim brotherhood leaders say, we made a mistake, the coup is fine. we're going back to medical clinics and things like that and just kind of abandoned the ideological ground completely. that is not going to happen.

now people on the ideological side don't have any ground to stand on any more except democracy and all its, you know, incompetent institutions and processes have failed. there is no rule of law. the state is totally legitimate, and every sense, even, you know, pakistan is not recognizing the government. south africa is not recognizing the interim government. but we cannot get calls through, things like that. why should we participate in any way with the framework? why not use violence? that would be my concern. you abandoned the ideological completely at time of extreme anger, time of polarization, and then the potential for -- and in a time of despair, maybe we could go in participating elections and democracy. that's a real danger. the muslim brotherhood leaders abandoned their cause currently. that would be very bad news for

people who wanted to avoid potential violence. very strong potential violence. >> so, the violence of the order of the terrorism of the 1990's and egypt, car bombs and things like that, nobody can record that possibility, but if you are in the background and avoided the analogy of may be implicit and asking if something like syria could happen. i think that would depend on the army. the army has to be divided. one speculation that i heard, the difference being the egyptian army and syrian army, the egyptian army basically has not fought for a while. the syrian army, of course, have not fought in the sense of a general war -- actually, you could say that the egyptians fought morrison 73 in 1990 helping the coalition against diplomacy, but the syrian army kind of fight's all the time, and its division has to do with this, has to do with the fact that it has been fighting and could split.

the ioc that in the egyptian army? we now see a lot of things. if something like this happens you could have the scary violence. if there is nothing like that, again, this is the violence of the terrorism of the 90's. it's not easy. is different than what happened. addicted to analogies. egypt has to be like pakistan, turkey is something like that. working on and try not to do these things. >> thank you. questions. let me start here. >> please introduce yourself first. and then -- >> i am an associate professor.

also a senior fellow. professions' come -- professions, personally i find the dialect of understanding of islam as far as equality -- >> what? >> a dire lack. as far as equality. the united states, move around the cycles for a while. because of what i have done, the essence of islam law has an abundance and very separate, you could call, and packs. the idea was is on politics is one in the same. you cannot divorce the two. the basic essence is that. so there is no giving that up. it is not going to happen as far as they're concerned. it may go underground. as you just talked about violence, the problem here is not initiated from as long, but

hijacked from outside, and al qaeda types and that respect. that could be a real possibility . and i find your opinion on this subject that the failed experiment of democracy as far as the presumptions are concerned of maybe you could call the hard-line islamic. the fact that they are not going to be able to participate in this is a chance that they had. they have been empowered. once in power there is no going back now. they will not go back to medical clinics. these clinics were there to allow them to have capital bases on the ground with the people. they were the political objective is to provide medical services, social services because they cannot -- they could not engage in politics above ground because they were being repressed. that has all changed.

>> i was worried about what you were going to say. >> first of all, not vice versa. not there at the beginning. except representative. not going to get into these debates. several more -- i don't want to say that the what -- no one is not political and every single doctor is out there treating someone far rash in rural egypt and say it is part of the political plan. that is not the same. in the fact of the matter is they're doing medical clinics and political involvement in the 1990's. and lots of other islamist organizations, whether it's one of the oldest, the oldest as lost organizations in egypt, entirely a terrorist organization, no political involvement whatsoever.

also older, from the 1920's and older than the muslim brotherhood, no political involvement. all they were saying was we oppose politics. we oppose politics. we oppose politics. on television for months saying this. is the muslim brotherhood a political creature? yes. is everything political? yes, obviously. but let's be realistic about the spectrum. there are things that are political in the professorial sense, but they are really not political. and i think that there's a lot of space there, has been and always will be for islamist groups to drive. >> professor. >> one quick thing. you want to be clear when they are committed to a connection between islamic politics. these are the dearest of people who held positions. i am not saying the impact is insignificant, but you also want to pay attention to the fact that a lot of people identify themselves as members who are

not really but think they are. a lot of these people were significant in the elections of last three years. these people were different. they don't have to think the way the political science book in america the scribe's overall. five agree with you. there's the dilemma, of course. if you begin your sense of the moving from the normal is law and customs and traditions were you know what that is, not political at all actually. barry interested in -- rituals are very important, marriage. men and women are different. you cannot talk to the old the way you talk to the young. unlawful gains to be avoided, but that does not have to mean a you avoid things that -- so to move from this kind of as long to seeing islamists everything and they should be everywhere

and it does not just given the families and the markets. it governs all so public life, the government, criminal law. that movement, that move indicates that the citizens are dissatisfied with the normal islamic customs and traditions, so i have a process to go through either by hitting the books, social studies, one of the things i realize looking at egyptian lawson's 1883. this dichotomy of to what extent the egyptian law is moving away, yeah, figures, also it is not real. i will give you one simple fact. in the 1940's and the special in 1948 there was a committee that drafted the civil code. actually an issue -- initially an egyptian jurist and french professor. and the project. all lawyers and judges to comment on. one of the judges, you recognize

the name. at that time wasn't. so he attended there as a member of the committee is looking at the draft. keep saying there is not enough in this. going against. and we have already explained that he has to be collected. take certain things from law because of the egyptian society. people looking at it as a political thing. on the same this is to be difficult. what's more informed. and maybe one day when they were in power they start to realize, the party, not interested. this is a function of a short

time laziness. also beginning to realize that this us to be impacted. we have time to let this. this kind of obvious. if here are medical doctors are doing other things with your life, they sit together and talk a religion or politics. there are few people in the know, but i think you're asking a difficult question and the future will determine that, but you have time. you always have time to change your mind. digitally information is available. >> someone right there. >> i'm from egypt. i've heard the word the military coup in the last month more than ever in my life, our demands are not met until this moment.

and they have liked the military and then they continued. i expect him to dislike him again. is not just about the balance. i also took the street again to overthrow morsi and his regime. the reason why none of them have been matched. no longer assumptions to overtake them. involved every section of these chips. although the egyptians. declaring himself. all the degrees are not to be -- no one can actually sue him in front of court. and then you suddenly see him like rising. the constitution.

freedoms and rights and allow military tribes by the way the military, the muslim brotherhood have been tried now. the laws that the people of told them, don't do this. so and so. many things that we can go through. democracy is not to be adjusted by the military. this is the case. the worst available option may be, but also, rephrase it, this was the base work available option at this moment because there were no ways that the egyptians would ever accept a military dictatorship -- i'm sorry, and elected dictatorship, even if people voted for it. a general comment. my question would be that, given the fact that there are a couple of movements within the muslim

brotherhood which are actually calling for leaders to stop violence and stop taking this on, my question is, how far do you think these movements and we don't know that there were going to snowboard and not, affect the general structure of the brother eric, especially that they have been exercised by the edge national movement. >> thank you for the questions. the comment, i want you so send the microphone down there. first three will get the action of the panel. >> i guess another option would be to wait a few months and vote in parliamentary elections. that would have been another option. and considering that supposedly 303 million people came out and streets, probably could have won those elections and reshaped the country in whatever form you wish. of course now instead of having a constitution that gives military the right, you actually

have military dictatorship. not entirely convinced that this was set sensible course of action. that being said, not american. an egyptian. i may be a sentimental fan. i'm not sure. muslim brotherhood against violence and things, not -- these groups have a wealth of maybe -- they are sort of like the -- had a suspicion that they actually really, in any independent form, if they do an end up having a big impact, i think it would be good for the organization, islamists. however, i would pause and wait and see if they actually in that earning a lot of support. that's just my opinion. i could be wrong. >> they exist within the group.

if these groups a year named exist, then they are a manifestation. but not every division is going to be expressed in the movement. so i know that basically what we are arguing from is intuition because i see circumstantial evidence for that intuition, but this is just what this seems. people are shocked by how much happened over the years, and there are still assimilating, thinking about it, thinking and thinking. so it would be all these movements. the language, by the way, you know, we have to be smarter about this. if i asked you, what does it mean? it does not mean revolution. so we're going to just be -- i don't want to go on and get into that. so you react to a provocation. sometimes that could lead to -- and also revolution itself is

ominous. so if we keep matching to things that already mean two different things, i am amazed by how much literature came out essentially of a linguistic issue. we should not get into that. it really just takes a lot of energy for no reason. >> thank you. >> can meyer. if the suez canal will be closed down 3/7 hours or even just the pipeline. >> above are paid great. >> i trust somebody in the defense department worries about such gangs and plans.

a long time since knocked out of commission. up think anybody anticipating that at this point. plays the role in the world oil market that it once did because a lot of ships go all the way around. and demand is to the east in a way that it was not in the past. i'm not sure that this represented its big issue as some people might imagine. wendy chamberlain. our leader at the middle east institute. >> i am a return forms to this officer. one of the things -- we are always told, even as engineer officer, they can never not have

a policy. as i understand your thesis, the united states is going to get it coming going. the best approach would be take a deep breath and let it outside. xl, do nothing. yet both sides are attacking, as are all sides. it's because we are not doing things. we are not coming in on what they perceive their interests are. i would like you to kind of get into that a little bit. he started to hit the nail on the head. we are divided and confused as well on this same issue. do not get involved? do we not get involved? can we not get involved? >> so i just learned a lesson

from you. that did not study this. you have to have a policy that means your to be thinking about it. i think of this more if you are always on the defensive it is always bad. have a lot of control over the discussion. there are elements of that. being on the defense is, you can never get it right, and i think this is what has happened. the united states is on the defensive, and this interpretation of law was applied to what it does. it may be one analogy i will let knowledge from the beginning, it's very of limited use. if you are in the case, and a lawsuit and the lawyer tells you, just don't talk as much. you could be an expert witness. an interest because it would be

misinterpreted. easy to get it wrong. easy for this stuff to contradict something said before . this attitude, i think, out of prudence as far as language, but now has an research and figuring things out in connecting, of course for instance i don't know what is usually done there. it's about talking. it really takes that. everything you say is cover zero. contrary to ourselves as individuals. i can go further. >> i wouldn't say what the policies, but with the statement. that is a good deal of what gets us into trouble. no doubt about it. did you want to come up? >> i am kind of of very selfish person, i will be honest.

at live in washington d.c. and think a lot about minimizing the number of people who want to blow up the city and live in. i think that if you look at is honest discourse from the 1990's to 2000, a lot of it is about look what happened in nigeria, / democracy is not a real avenue. there will never let us have our own islamist government and things like that. and i think that supporting this military coup would be backing up that narrative which scares me. i would rather say, you know, i would rather have the united states, you know, help shepherd a democratic process back into existence and to have some sort of outcome that people can live with, obviously not a return to president's morsi, but the united states and for the same reasons, i think that would be more sensible. i don't pretend to know how people think in the government all the time. >> thank you. let me take this year.

and maybe one of the microphones can go to the gentleman and a white cap. >> thank you. i came from iran. that perspective from iran, don't you think that this problem in egypt is more theoretical than practical? secular -- ted islam. second of all, traditionalism is not involved. muslim cannot find a way that policy of secular law, but muslims are not secularist. i say because i see the backbone of iran and let say egypt have been involved since 200 years ago, the dust ball. so a student, isn't that problem

there? and the second question is more practical. stay you think that american citizen, as an american eat think that you can imagine getting involved in a kind of solution, confrontational one, just to gather all of them together and to find a solution for them. started to somehow go, the american solution in this way? >> professor. >> the first question, if i understand it correctly -- i will stop with the first question. political. the first question, you know, there is enough literature, of course, in arabic and a lot of the egyptian thinkers and criticizes and philosophers who say that we discover that most political exercise is that political action has nothing to do with the language of the purists. that is correct. it is undeniable anyone who has

some interest in history can see that. there is not as associated as people think. so i agreed. if you are inviting to go back to what we said about what is it that islamists actors are actually qualifying to get into this question of interpreting history and tradition, i am unfortunately bias there, not qualified. it does not work like that. it is not good intentions, and it is my story with in the late 80's and early 90's because you really -- it takes a couple of years of studying. then you realize some of them are false and raise wrong. the questions that are raised right and answered in a fairly sophisticated way also still falls short of the real -- of course in the american scene, it is farther from that because people are entitled to interpret their traditions the way they want.

then as they tell you that is what it means, who are you to talk? so, i mean, i agree with the subtext of the question and don't know where to go? >> i might just comment briefly about a negotiated solution. that is my game. i think it is quite clear that their current position of the army and of the brotherhood are that there is no zone a possibility. that is quite clear. i think that the positions are just positions. and the opening gambit in a negotiation. will we are watching in egypt is , in fact, and negotiation. and, you know, professor brown has offered a kind of compromise where there is a zone of possible agreement with the idea of morsi returning momentarily,

if i understand correctly, to power long enough to the point that the prime minister, and that is about it. that is one possibility. there are other possibilities as well. i think it is a very -- i think we all have a decision, but it is a big decision, and my view, for the united states to imagine that it could mediate that negotiation. that is a heavy lifting kind of requirements, and, you know, i gather the robert ford advising the american government on whether it should get into that camera not, i think, frankly, we have our hands a little bit full of negotiations at the moment, and i have my doubts as to whether we could be successful in egypt. actually, it is fair also to say that the egyptians have been bargaining with each other for a

long time and probably know how to do this. please. >> thank you. american egyptian as well. and i associate myself with many organizations both here and over there. some of it is iran as well. i am kind of deeply involved with the politics of iran, where they are headed, so on and so forth. what i believe is that the real quagmire is for the united states. we spoke about the united states as their hands off or there are fully engaged and have more negotiations on their hands than they can handle, but i believe ambassador patterson has been very much deeply engaged on all sides, and i believe that the next ambassador, mr. ford, would be doing the same thing. i don't know if he will do what he has done some are also my hope is not.

but what is scary for us in washington is that approach that we are deeply involved are out of the process. but for -- the days before the military coup there were meeting in cairo. i don't think it is a coffee chats. it is really unrealistic and untrue. it is a quagmire between iran and the military. might have been the case before the election of president morsi, but now people much more are standing for the democratic process. and i am reminded of the obama speech in cairo, of all places, where he pledged to support the democratic process in the middle east, saying that this is an american ideal, but it is also a human right. why aren't we calling on the

american washington establishment to take responsibility for nurturing and supporting the democratic process because we get the results we want a more comfortable with the military, about the egyptian military and want to manage egypt through the military for 60 more years? believe it is unethical for washington to claim, my hands are full and i can do nothing. and if i do anything academics. you are playing for a long time. another question is, isn't there an exit, for example, if we proposed as a nation that has its hands full with the process that morsi comes back but not for a symbolic time, but to ensure the democratically elected presidents are not going to be subject to military. what is happening but the

military -- and this is a deep feeling in the egyptian community here and in egypt at the military from the people of the democratically elected president, which means that they have stolen the will of the egyptian people. why are we talking about this? is this insignificant? is this something that does not matter any more because the military and is all over the country? >> you have asked a good question. let us hear the answer. >> i think a lot of what you said, you know, -- i think the answer is, for me at least, clear. the united states should stand by its ideals. i am an academic. i have the luxury of being idealistic. i think that is a good way. anyway, i have actually been surprised if during the -- a lot of times in the last couple of years you find the egyptian media and parts of the egyptian media are much more at -- active and the american media.

during the last few months it has been a desire to see the american media emulate more than the egyptian media. you read the new york times are i am used to reading, what is this, collected the egyptian papers. now i am thinking got for the new york times coverage because i think, you know, i don't know, not to speak for the american people as a whole, but i think there's a lot of reverence in the united states for the democratic process and that people are not -- they are -- there is a lot of will to support them. what the u.s. government does, however, is not -- i mean, i do not know how this is estimate. >> professor ahmad atif ahmad, more see back? >> i want to think about what you said in the beginning about the united states same we're not doing anything, but they're doing a lot. at the risk of being reprimanded here by the true professionals, the united states is not showing

that degree of control of command. is the impression people might get is that they're talking a certain way but they are running michele. it is a decisive moment in american policy realizing that it is not able to do a lot of things. not to talk to many factors. people talking to many audiences . i could be wrong. my impression, and a scene analysis that may support that, i don't know that the united states is in control. if you're suggesting based on the assumption that it is in control and can actually bring -- it can exercise sufficient pressure for whoever is powerful and that law, major -- letter may be multiple factors combined on see that. watching to an extent. the hope is that the division, the confusing of the exacerbation that exists in the

population will end. maybe they agree to kill a few dozen people so that they can move on. there has to be a sense of agreement. people have to decide something. >> i am a businessman. i have a question. the two events in egypt could be related to a we know have their spring and second question is

what is if there is such a thing as arab springs, is there any renaissance taking place in the middle east? one hundred years from now, we will be looking back and call this new movement? thank you. >> are we add a historical juncture? >> we are. probably more so than -- i mean, i guess the big question is, is, you know, is the history of a country like egypt going to be something that moves forward? will there be a change and progress? and progress is not linear or a direct route. there will be detours and things like that, what is it something that will move forward something that falls back in the past?

even if it's incorrect. falling back into the past is a disaster. another interesting, at least for egypt, one of the things that has become clear to me is that one of the things as has been put to bed here is the egyptian -- leaders and the muslim world. they're is a strong -- the egyptians love to talk about this. egypt is a big country population lies, tremendous symbolic value, but if you take symbolic value and combine it with the failure to us -- the inability to be independent financially and politically what you have is a recipe for disaster for the egyptian people because at no point is there best interest going to be taken into consideration. the -- you cannot have a country -- a country cannot lead politically it is unable to feed

its population. and if it is -- its political destiny can be derailed coaches completely by simply adjusting gas pumps and electrical miles and you have millions of people on the streets, gas lines and fuel shortages and electrical cuts, i would be tempted to go back and look of some of the conflicts with see in egypt and other countries in the middle east and see if this is part of those conflicts. but i think that, yes, there's a big struggle moment for whether or not there will be progress or regress. >> i think we are living in an important moment. it is just a long one. so maybe not for us, maybe for the next generation. i talked about the fundamental change over three years. not a lot of change. maybe this society can go back and accept things that would be inimical to things that came out of the 2011 pricing and the

movements, but that does not mean that it will not go back and forth. so i definitely do not want people to wait for something like a european renaissance. it is actually the 15th century in the islamic calendar, but all of these analogies adjust confusing. there is something happen, and a lot will happen. also may be in egypt will begin to think differently. is true. it is just a big number of people. there are not that many new ideas in the old-fashioned sense of new ideas. so you cannot predict. but it is very hard to imagine that people just forget about what happened. and whether it is and arabs from aeronaut, you know, the arabs bring, a closer analogy with a certain mystery that is different also, not about the renaissance and more about the 19th century. i just don't see these things are beating themselves. it's a big moment.

a lot of things that happen after the thinking about what this nation is about and its relationship to other nations command is not just egypt, something will come out of it, but it is hard to sit here on august 5th of 2015 and imagine what the century will look like. >> i'm struck by the images. please. >> from the embassy of the zipped. thank you for the panel. i disagree with you about what's your sign because president morsi or former president morsi was democratically elected come about we have all agreed that election is not only democracy. you forget about one year grabbing power.

i don't think they steven on that, american definition of democracy, this is democracy. excluding the rest of the forces the constitution that doesn't represent the rest of the country, is not democracy. i'm sorry. and win -- why are we ignoring that for one year he used democracy to grab power. second, portraying what happened as military sources, not the muslim brotherhood. you're ignoring that it was not only to ask morsi to leave, but also other egyptian groups. you had the pope. you had the morsi party present

and also representatives from the other non islamist groups. you forget about the millions of or in the street. so if this is how we have to look to egypt, not with just a vision of u.s. democracy that has been installed here for hundreds of years, more than the case, we are still in establishing a democracy. >> anybody? >> first of all, you're right, governing democratically as out about elections. that's what president morsi did not understand. that's a big mistake he made. and the muslim brotherhood leaders, people can white -- right countless things about

that. we're talking about choosing governments, yes, democracy is about elections because i can say there were 30 million people and the streets, but some say 20, some say 5 million. you have to have 08 counties people which is why you have votes. everyone has a little piece of paper and a good account. that is why it it was the big government you have to have elections. i agree, democracy is not about elections. some of these other things. i would simply say that if president morsi is so terrible it's very easy to add have policies that reflect a lack of confidence in the muslim brotherhood, or you can wait until the next president's election and vote him out of office. and elsie anything in the constitution or the suppose it here. albion is, i read the egyptian press, the constitution. i don't know where all this power grab was. a very -- i don't see it.

it's like a figment that gives border around. modem out of office. >> one at a time. >> simply try to understand that the egyptians are still building their own democracy. you cannot just apply the american system or the american vision. >> is not an american system. the americans did not invent elections. and a lot of people of world to a lot better than the united states court to establish democracy. >> a good weight is to have a way of counting. if he can't count about -- if you can't count what people want -- >> an opportunity. >> we agree more than you think, actually. i mean, i -- i don't think anyone is in a position to say we are the majority. but my sister tells me exactly. the majority of people hate the muslim brotherhood. don't be a wimp or something

like that. you have to recognize that the majority of people don't like these people, but i don't know. i think, as jonathan is hinting, some of this, it becomes just too much. everyone has intuition from a conversation. so the ballots are significant to an extent, but i agree with you. and agree with the baseline, democratic participation is fine. i think if we were to ask the majority of people and ask them about whether going on in the streets is as good as elections, they would say yes. some may be what you had is the muslim brotherhood one, but there were other elections they lost. if we can actually establish 4 million, 5 million people came out. that's enough. and you're right because it is such an early experience. it is certain interpretations and ships and things like that

they should not be judged by the side. i felt like in the subtext of some of your sentences maybe there is an assumption. i think we'll agree more than you think. >> thank you. >> served in the government for a long time. part of the small group that set up the long term security systems program with egypt. one thing i am hearing today, is all about islam. yet i get this impression from the 20 or 33 billion that showed up to participate that it is not -- that it is much more secularism then there is is on, but the whole discussion has been simply as to whether the islamists are going to take over

or not. what about that other undifferentiated mass, which i think professor ahmad atif ahmad was referring to. >> so, i mean, with of ambiguity in the language which was causing us a lot of suffering. islamism means different things to different people. i agree with you. i came up with a hypothesis that was very imprudent on my part, but right after 2011. i have been here for 14 years, but i know he did so well that i can tell you that the population wants islam lights. does say anything bad about the profit incentive you. they will hurt you. but that is my sense of the majority. one of these intuitions could be totally wrong, but it was based

on living there for 26 years. in this moment, people have to recognize, do not push people either towards the kind of liberalism and understood in a social and moral sense that pushes them away. people don't pray. they feel bad when somebody used to break is not pay any more. they feel terrible. analyze this. somebody you never praise would feel bad. soho. [laughter] >> this is very public. i can think of american analysis. that may not go that far. these things just exist in society. it is true. it is islamism and the army. it is more complicated. 19 million people. we will get to know more. >> professor brown.

>> personally, i think the issue at hand is just about the mechanisms by which decisions are made, which is obviously crucial for progress. and, again, your question brings up the issue which is 20 or 33 million. these numbers are just numbers. no one says they have any basis. there is no actual basis. so if we had no grounds for making plans to my claims as long as they're not based on evidence, children will just have more claims, more and more claims. and how can you come to any kind of conclusions about or agreements in that light? ..

i'm not an economist, but i think that egypt is -- , i mean, it's -- you could make a great example of of a country that faces so many economic problems. it's almost incomprehensible to imagine any improvement over the term. without, i mean, it's not just structurally unsustainable and long-term unsustainable in the immediate short term. and, you know, you have people -- the reason why a lot of people came out --

a lot of people came out to protest against president morsi. one of the reason is people had hasn't made any money for two years. they are completely miserable. their country has stalled totally economically, and if you -- if anybody who -- someone not able to improve that or give people any sort of hope, then they will suffer -- if they will suffer some similar fate unless the security service of the army shut down protest as they would have done under mubarak. but, i mean, when i think about egypt's economic future, i sort of cry with woe. >> they really didn't study mainstream economic. and have to study beyond their field to get a sense what is going on in egypt in particular. so the country went through many

ways on the level that were so contradictory that lead to some of the problems, but also there's a lot of what people refer to as big fat word corruption. institutions that have never been totally made transparent or had a mechanism to go around and i keep hearing all of these pessimistic things. one of my friend was appointed the head of the government. he's basically going to be in charge of everything under since the real estate market. he's saying it's a big mess, and very confusing to have to ask the basic questions while you're dealing with the immediate needs. that would, you know, would really take big team of people who know a lot and don't just take ideas from egypt and apply them without thinking in

reflection about what might work and might not work. but beyond that, i'm disqualified from answering that. >> let me ask, professor brown, do you have a final word for us? >> i mean, -- i'm not sure. [laughter] seems an appropriate final word. professor? >> i can't believe we spent nineteen minutes. they were very enjoyable, and me not -- people say the brothers say you just wasted sixteen minutes on inspect we somehow managed to waste nineteen minute of your time. thank you for coming. >> we enjoyed it. we thank you. [applause] [inaudible conversations]

the brooksings institution said the defense consults coming in 2014 would -- he predicted that congress may try to soften the impact of the cut. >> the cut required by sequestration are so hair, for that year. there's no way to put them realistically. it's worse debacle than the pain that occurs in that year dwarfs what we're going through this summer. it compounds what we're going through this summer when almost half of the air force isn't flying, for example, when equipment cues are piling up and not fixing the stuff we need to keep safe for our forces. i think congress may ultimately say $52 billion in 2014 defense cuts that sequestration would require needs to be softened a

little bit. maybe they add the cuts to the back end or something. they soften the blow in 2014. that's possible just because the specter of sequestration next year is so harmful. >> congress is currently on a five-week recess. they return to continue work on the new budget year. you can see the entire event from the brookings institution today on c-span.org. each day this week while congress is on recess, we're bringing you oncore q & a at 7:00 eastern on c-span2. today the codirecterer of the documentary "d et ropia." then at 8:00 eastern booktv in prime time. tonight focus on book fairs and festivals of the past year. including a discussion from the harlem book fair. a look at the book "stalin's

secret agents." and the book about whitey bulger. >> i'm not some sort of antisuburb person who thinks that everyone needs to live in new york city, and, you know, i was very sensitive in coming across as a sort of a coffee sipping, condo dwelling eliteist of some kind. that's not why i did this book. i understand why people like the suburbs. i get fed up with a lot of daily life in new york city a lot. it's -- i was more drawn -- the trends were just so undenial, and the fact there's a shift in way the suburban america is perceived by the people who live there is too big a story to ignore. >> where the american dream is moving. sunday night at 9:00 on afterwords. part of booktv this weekend. education secretary arne duncan talked about today about

improving k through 12 education and other issues at the summit in washington, d.c. the event was hosted by usaid. it's twenty five minute. >> good morning, welcome to our global education summit. i'm kristy vilsack. i'm the senior adviser for international education at usad. we're happy to have you here. secretary arnie key duncan has spent most of his professional life working to create opportunity for inner-city children who will never know or appreciate everything he's done phs are them. as chief executive office he unitedded education reformers, teachers, principals, business stakeholders, and increasing childhood and college access and boosting the caliber of teachers. when president obama appointed him as secretary of education and brought him to the cab innocent, he brought the same

agenda to his job here in washington, d.c. the focus and determination to make sure he created systemic change. mr. secretary, you should be especially proud of the work you have done increase pell pell grants by $40 billion. providing opportunity for more college students to get a college education, and encouraging states to raise education standards. we at international education at usaid are honored to have you here to talk about the issue continue -- confronting us here at home and abroad. about how to reach our ambitious goals to teach every child to read in the world. in a specialsly in conflict and crisis countries ands make sure we help them find fulfilling work and the security that assures. please join me in welcoming secretary arne duncan. [applause]

>> good morning. i'm thrilled to be here. thank you, christie. we're a good partner with usaid. they have done interesting thing in the past. we have the opportunity to talk with you this morning. i'll make any brief remarks. i want to start by thanking you for working so hard every day to guarantee every child in every corner of the globe the universal right to education. as you know, we live in a highly connected interdependent world where knowledge is the most important currency. that makes education more important than ever before and makes your work, i think the most important and the most meaningful work that anyone can do. nothing can make this clearer than the latest remarkably, moving, passionate, and address the united nations last month.

we realized the important of light, she said, when we see darkness. we realize the important of your voice when we are silent. and when the taliban came after her and a classmate, she said, i quote again, we realize the importance of pens and books when we saw the guns. she was speaking her 16th birthday. the day the extremists tried to stop her from reaching. she urged the world community to wage global struggle against illiteracy, poverty, and terrorism. education he, she said, is the only solution. the solution has never mattered more than it does today. across the globe, nations multilotted really a organizations, ngo, and other partners are working to realize education's pull -- full power to unlock human potential. in the united states, we're working hard to implement a

comprehensive vision from cradle to career reform so every child can receive a world class education they need and deserve. we want to hone our competitive edge in the marketplace. we deeply committed to an international education agenda that is deeper and more collaborative than ever before. today's global economy is not, is not, some kind of zerosome game. it's the new currency which nations keep competitive. increasing educational attainment by a single grade level whose lifetime north carolina -- income by 10 to 20% for girls. four grade levels could increase global economic demand by 50% or more. as you heard from president in the powerful opening statement, a better educate world is more prosperous world. a better educate world is also a

healthier world. and assuring schooling for girls, especially can literally mean the difference between life and death. we know a mother who can read can better protect her children from chonnic illnesses, aids, and dying young. a child born to a literate mother, to a mother who can read is 50% more likely to live past the age of 5. a better educate world is also a better stewart of our planet, and with lo agency attainment among the strongest -- it's also a safer world. a better educate world everyone, everyone benefits. all of you here today are working to make that vision a reality. by helping children in the early grades get the fundamental skills they need for success. today around the globe, some 57 million primary-age children are out of school, more than half of them not surprisingly are girls. a great many of the children

live in communities torn by conflict from the central africa republican to syria. this is a time of unprecedented urgency. it is also, deeply believe, a time of unprecedented opportunity. the opportunity i want to highlight this morning. along with some of the education reform lessons we're learning here every day in the u.s. we have gained changing technology to help teachers personalize learning and connect students and teachers for the best content the world has to offer. no matter where they live. we have a growing body of research about which is -- from preschool to blended learning. have the biggest impact on student success. and i believe that we reached an extraordinarily international consensus about key education reform priorities. from the u.n. to u.s.a. id to the obama administration. all of us aiming to early learning to build stronger work

forces, and prepare better global citizens. and there's some compelling sign of progress. consider some figure from the recent u.n. report designed to build on the ma less than yum goal. in the 13 years we have seen the fastest reduction in poverty in human history. with half a billion fewer living in extreme poverty. globally, child death have fallen by 30%. 30% since 2000. that's 3 million lives saved each year. in 2011, a record 590 million children in developing countries attended primary school. gender gaps and yowlt literacy rates have also narrowed for the new global high of 96 literate young women for every 100 young men in 2010. we should absolutely celebrate these victory. we all know there's more we have to do. collectively we have to find ways to accelerate that rate of

progress and improvement. we're all -- by polarizing trends in wealth and economic mobility for lack thereof. around the world the 1 they make up 72%. and the average child in a poor country performs worse academically than 95% of children in a rich country. those odds are both unacceptable and unsustainable. here in the u.s., we're also battling the alarming polarization of wealth and stubborn barrier to economic mobility. we are struggling against persistent learning gap, fueled, i believe by huge opportunity gap based on family income, race, geography, and other factors. our education agenda is designed to close these opportunity gaps and rebuild and strengthen our middle class. includes many of the same strategy that all of you are applying across the globe.

this is a moral imperative swems a civic and economic necessity. the u.n. also found that globally progress and primary school enrollment flowed. even as we work to quicken the change we know it's not enrollment that matters. worldwide just as right here in the u.s. we need to focus on educational quality, attainment, and completion. and despite the great need in all of the evidence returned on investment there's been a troubling downturn in funding. last year less than 1.5% of overall humanitarian funding went toward education. worse of all, save the children reported more than 3,600 incidents of violence, direction, -- destruction and intimidation involving education. schools must be safe haven for

children, parents and teachers. your work is helping to change and challenge the conditions that breed both ignorance and violence. i know, that is part of the effort many of you are working hard to build stronger partnership between parents and schools and communities. parents will always be their children's first teachers and most important teachers. and they can have tremendous, tremendous impact on their children's school readiness, motivation to learn, and study skills as well as on high school graduation rates and ultimately college preparedness. christie shared some of her experience on her trip to africa. i could see how inspired she was to strengthen the family to advocate for their children's education. that's real empowerment. here in the united states, we share that commitment to parental engagement and identify and taking to scale what is actual working. we're also focused like never before on the impact of early

learning and care. and the crucial stages from pre-lit sincerity to literacy. research shows that quality early learning opportunities translates to individual success both in school and ultimately throughout a young person's life and phenomenal civic and economic benefits if our communities. president obama has put forward an ambitious plan that in partnership with our states, would provide for high quality preschool for every 4-year-old this this country. i'm convinced we have to stop playing catchup and level the playing yield for our children before they start cirnt garden at the age of five. at the same time the fast evolving field of education technology from cloud computing to education resources like the academy i two children enjoy has huge potential to transform education. technology can increase equity as well as raise the bar for all children. it engages student in the their

own learning and empowers teachers in new and remarkable ways. technology can help highly skilled teachers deliver personalized learning that equallyizes differences in income, race, ability or disability, language learning needs, and other factors. with personalized learning teachers use data and differentiated instruction to tailor their approach to each of their children. students advance to new concepts based on demonstrative -- rather than -- [inaudible] i'm convinced that that shift from competency can't come soon enough. we should all be interested in what students know and can do and not how long they are actually sitting in class. finally, parents gain important transparency in real time that helps them to support their children and build on their strength and help them with the struggling. to speed this critically needed revolution, president obama has just launched a new initiative called connect ed. to connect 99% of american's

students to high speed internet over the next five years. and we're poised to make the first free u.s. government funded digital learning material designed to improve post secondary training and high demand career available for youth and improvement. we're excited to see how providers around the globe use and economize these materials for the needs of their learners. and excellent report for the brookings institution by my good friends, i think they will speak in the next session, nay amazed the challenges and the benefit of education technology in the developing world. upfront nations need to address issues like reliability and sustainability, infrastructure, equity, ease of use, and the availability of resources students and teachers native languages. open education resources and other communications tools can improve and expand teacher training and professional development. a huge opportunity and so many

countries grappling with large teacher shortages and undereducate teachers. and places like pakistan, mobile devices can enable students to learn any time, anywhere, and keep in contact with teachers through conflict additions or other breaks in schooling. but we're also learning the united states isn't -- it's important to start with the education challenge and determine which technology, if any, meets the need and adds value to other solutions. as tempting to make it about the new, the glamorous ganlt. that can distract from simpler and more effective approaches like usaid funded radio active instruction in southern sudan. we must ensure that technology becomes a force to narrow not widen existing gaps of wealth and privilege and education opportunity. let me conclude with this. for generations, 20th century mississippi here on 21st century

somali. they have risked their safety and given their live to get the education that will unlock their full potential. it from the podium, she spoke to and for the world's children. her message was clear, we want schools and education for every child's bright future. we will continue our journey to our destination of peace and education. no one can stop us. we will speak up for our rights and bring change through our voice. all of you are helping to answer that call. i thank you for your service, your commitment, your creativity, and your courage. let's work together in individual nations and around the world until there are no cracks for students to fall through. no more barriers to run in to. and no more threat of their safety as they pursue their education and their dreams. it's been said that if you want

peace, wok for justice. we know that one solution cuts to the root, cuts to the very heart of the challenges con flingting our collective humanity. if we want both justice and peace we must work for education. thank you so much. i'm happy to take your questions. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> is that working? hello. [laughter] maybe you can hear me. [laughter] i'll try, anyway. >> there we go. [laughter] >> okay. thank you. my name is carol, i'm a -- [inaudible] secretary duncan, i would like to ask your view on the role of community in advancing education outside of the formal classroom setting. thank you. >> well, i will say when schools

are -- we put a huge limit and cap on what children can accomplish. when schools embrace the community and become community center, we bring in, you know, parents and business leaders and faith based leader and non-profit and social service agency our children get a sense of what is possible. they get a sense of the commitment. we stretch the leverage of our resources. one thing i try to do in chicago that has a high poverty rate is to have our schools become community centers with a wide array of gast school programming. ged classes and esl, literacy night, and family counseling. we about 3 dozen health care clinic taichessed to -- attached to schools. the more schools become the center of community they can embrace it. the better our students can do. career days, shadowing mentoring, chess club, debate, all of those things children love the only way we strengthen the viability of those kinds of things when we embrace the

community. the link between parents, schools, and community we have to foster those. [inaudible conversations] >> good morning, secretary duncan. [inaudible] i was wondering for you take a moment to highlight one or two key messages from the work -- [inaudible] particularly in the context -- [inaudible] >> there are couple of things. i talk some about the early childhood education. i can't overemphasize how important it is. to give you a quick summary of the fact in the united states. the average dplield a poor community, starts cirnt garden at five years old a year and 14 months behind. we spend lot of time, energy, and resources trying to catch up. we often do it poorly. the children who start behind often drop out, and get locked up. the cost to them, their family, and the community is staggering.

if question close the opportunity gap and high quality early learning opportunity to every level the playing field before they enter cirnt ganderren. i can't think of a more important thing for our country to do. guys like james heckman a nobel prize winning economist studied it for five decades. he found a seven to one return on investment. it -- but the noncognitive skill. the ability to regulate, self-control, to think about the long-term, resill -- resiliency. it's tougher in other communities. so we can fundamentally breakthrough as a country, that would be a huge deal. one quick example, i was recently in minnesota, doing

everything right. government investing about $40 million to childhood. people are understanding it. today minnesota have a wait list of 30,000 kids. and minnesota is relatively high performing state, it's also a state one of the largest achievement gap in the country. i guarantee a big cause is the lack of education opportunity. that's one thing we need to do better. many countries are ahead of us in providing those opportunity. we want to do more. the second i talk about, the continuum continue newty from cradle to career. so often in colleges blame the high school and it goes down. the primary schoolteachers blame early education. early education blames the parents. they are all our kids. they are all our kid. we have stop pointing fingers. we have think about every step from birth to 22, 24, 25. what are we doing to give students the opportunity to be

successful? [applause] [inaudible] [inaudible] i want to talk a little bit about the role of the art, developing children's creativity, innovation. especially on the use of technology equipment, digital equipment, as well as the roles played which is being taken away from children and schools. and how that effects literacy learning. >> you look at what -- [inaudible] look for folks who are creative and can solve problems. i always talk about what i call the well-rounded world class education. reading and math are fundamental. they are educational. art, dance, music, drama. they are all important. it's very tough in tough economic times to see many get cut back. i keep saying as a society we either view education as an

investment or as an expense. and a tough economic times there is a set of folks quite frankly in congress who think we should set back education every year in level. walking away from the pell grants that kristy talked about. i would argue it's the best investment we can make any time. especially in tough economic times. those things -- [applause] if you want better math score, try some music. if you have more creativity let kids play in a playground work out the socialization skills there. i think we need more folks across the political, you know, spectrum who go the voting boothe are these political leaders to increase educational opportunity for children. i worry about the ceiling we put put on our state of the students. i worry about the damage we do our country if we don't invest. one final little thing for folks

here, the sequester stuff is the worst thing imaginable. the fact cut across the board. and countries outeducating us are not managing their educational strategy by a scwisser. they are innovating us. they are figuring how to go to the next level. we are really -- when i testify before congress i think it's country we're in fork in a road. we need to decide regardless of politicses and -- politic and ideology. do he want to invest increase opportunity to go to ledge or less educate work force and nation? that's the debate right now we're having in the country. >> one last one. >> hi. teach for all. your administration has been very supportive of the charter school sector in the u.s. i'm wondering for you were meeting with other minister of education around the world who need to expand access in their country.

what are the benefit and risk doing so enabling a charter-like sector. >> we have an educational summit we go every year from high performing nations and rapidly improving nation as well as the union leader. i'm a believer in good charter. there's nothing good or bad about the charter or school. i say 6 or 7-year-old don't worry about what kind of school is it. do i have a good principal, do i have a good teach are? where you have high performer chatters yo have they are a solution. i think as we talk to, you know, ministers from around the globe, the idea of having some choice, the idea of providing some opportunity for kids in communities 0 who have been disserved historically. we have community here unfortunately in the united states for sixty years the high school have been basically drop out. the vast -- majority are dropping out.

we're replicating charter and quality. children in the united states and across the globe we need more and more high quality opportunity. thank you so much. thank you for having me. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> i'm not some sort of antisuburb person who thinks that everyone needs to live in new york city and, you know, i was very sensitive in cometting across as a escaped eases that's not why i did this book. i understand why people like the

get fed up with a lot of daily life in new york city a lot. i was more drawn -- the trends were just so undeniable. the fact there's a shift in the way the suburban america is perceived by the people who live there is too big of a story to ignore. >> where the american dream is moving sunday night at 9:00. part of booktv this weekend on c-span2. washington journal spent the morning at the port of virginia for an inside look what goes on in one of the nation's busiest port. coming up two members of congress who represent the area and the head of a national group that present the area. this is about two and a half hours. we are live from the port of virginia in nor folk, virginia. the third largest port

supporting 350,000 jobs in the area and economic impact annual economic impact of 41 billion. each container ship -- each ship has up to 10,000 containers on it. two guests to help kick off the conversation. rodney oliver with the virginia port authority. and jeff wassmer. jeff,ly let me begin with you the history of the port of virginia. when can it part? how long has been it been around? >> sure. first of all. welcome to the port of virginia. we have a great story to tell here. it started in 1607 the first seat leers came to james town. it's been a success story ever since from 1982, the state took all of the terminals around in virginia, and consolidated them under the virginia port authority. so the virginia port authority consistent of 13 commissioners

appointed by the governor. there is someone who serves as chairman. i'm honored to have that position. we governor the overall economic impact and the fair of the port. rodney oliver, executive districter has a staff of 100. we have an operating virginia international terminal has about 300 people. about 1200 more laborers. we operate the port of virginia. >> and rodney, what is your job as the executive director? what are you doing here on a daily basis? >> host: sure. my job is to make sure everything is running smoothly. we have a great story to tell. also, make sure the employees have the resource u they need to do their jobs and do their job well. and to make sure that we get -- the cargo moves through the facility on a smooth --

in a smooth manner. >> host: what does the port of virginia consistent of? infrastructure-wise. what is here? >> guest: right. we all -- or at least six terminals and operate those six terminals. the international terminal which is where we're sitting at today is the largest facility. 600 acres. we have a marine terminal, which is also in virginia. we have the new port marine terminal, and we also have the virginia interim port which is an facility in virginia. we also lease the port of richmond. >> host: so what is happening here today as we speak at the port of virginia? it gets busy very early around here. there is a lot of movement. as you said, a big footprint on the water. what is happening? >> guest: right. as we are coming in this morning, there was a ship that

was backing in to the facility nit north end -- we're on the south end. unfortunately we don't have a ship behind us. on the north end there's a ship beginning to work with awe speak. i had a short wait because there were containers coming in by rail for export, and they'll begin unloading those as we speak as well as the containers being unloaded. off the rail cars being loading on to ships that are coming later in the day. we have trucks that are open. truckers are coming in to pick up containers and take them to the final destination. >> host: a lot of different moving part. you are expecting a ship to be docking here behind us around midday today. what is the timing like for that, i mean, is it -- is it a pretty precise timeline

that you have? or what is the process like for expecting a ship to be coming? >> guest: generally the ship calls are regularly scheduled, but there are times when the schedules, you know, have to be adjusted. so we -- we know generally when ships will be here. we start working with the ship captain way out, you know, when they enter the, you know, chesapeake bay, and generally they are on dock for about 12 hours. we both load an unload their import and export containers. we are fortunate in we handle roughly -- 50% is input cargo. >> host: a ship is coming in. along the way, what is the process for the ship until they get to your dock. >> guest: right. they notify the pilot that they

are coming in to the sea buoy. >> host: who are the pilot? >> the pilot association is a separate group that navigates the ship on the berth. they take over when it enters the chesapeake bay. >> host: are they state run? federal run? >> they are a separate entity. >> host: okay. >> guest: they are a state support iive separate entity. >> host: okay. they get them in to the berth here on to the dock. what happens next? >> guest: well, obviously we tie the containers ship up to make sure it's secure and we begin working the ship. so the container cranes that you see here in the background, they'll begin taking containers off, putting containers on. generally what happens is for a container that is coming off the ship, it will be dropped tonight ground. it will be picked up by a

carrier, which is a piece of equipment that moves containers around the terminal. they are put in a stack until it's ready to be dangered by -- discharged by truck or rail. >> host: how long are the containers sitting here on ground? >> guest: well, with regards to racial containers, or to rail boxes that are going out with the terminal. we generally try to get them out within 24-48 hours. truck boxes, boxes that are going to be picked up by truck they can be on the terminal anywhere up to seven days, but generally two to five days. >> host: we're talking about with rodney oliver. and jeff wsassmer. live from virginia port. here to take your questions and comments about how all of this works.

if you're interested in the ports across our country. this is the third largest on the east coast. there's about a dozen that run up-and-down the east coast. the port of virginia is in that list of twenty pretty regularly ranked around five or six depending on the amount of cargo that is in coming in. start dialing in now with your questions and comments. well get to them in a minute. jeff, as rodney was talking i was thinking about what it means for the area. the governor asked you to sit on this board. wanted to get a local businessman's speft. -- perspective? what what does it mean to the community and the state virginia? >> guest: virginia is blessed with a lot of possibility. we have a huge military base here. the harbor is the largest navel base in the world. it's very vibrant. the economic engine is definitely the port of virginia. you started off by saying it has

an impact of $43 billion in the commonwealth every year. 343,000 jobs. one in eleven jobs is tied to the port of virginia. if you look at our volume, we do about 2 million containers or t e.u. a year. if you do the math every six containers that might be going down the road representative one virginia job. every container has an impact of $20,000 to our state economy. the state of virginia is huge to the commonwealth of virginia. the governor understands that, and the board of commissioners, our responsibility is to return that value to the state. and the shareholders, and the shareholders of this port are the citizens of virginia. >> host: how do they benefit? >> guest: well, absolutely by jobs. you know, jobs is a something that the governor is very focused on. economic development, just a lot of activity that goes around the port. >> host: 350,000 jobs supported by the port of virginia. probably indirectly and directly. but the people who work here,

who are they? on average, you know what kind of wage do they make? >> guest: well, the majority of the workers that are working on terminal are union employees working for the international long shoreman association. their wages are roughly $30 an hour. but some more senior are higher. some are lower. of course, you have the staff from the operating company that performs a maintenance and supervisors the union employees and works with ships and the ship lines to service their needs. at the virginia port authority we have sworn security staff that makes sure that the terminals are secure. as well as a marketing develop staff, and administration.

>> host: jeff, so how does this port compete, if it does, explain that with other ports across the country. it's rehabbinged as -- ranked as one of the top twenty major ports in the united states. how does it compete? >> guest: sure. it's an interesting dynamic. the real driver for where cargo goes is the beneficial cargo argue, the target, walt mart, pet smart. people who have the cargo and own it. there are a lot of costs involved along the way from manufacture to where it's being exported from. the shipline coast of the port of virginia and us getting it out. we compete obviously by cost. that's extremely important. it's also by efficiency. how quickly can we get the cargo on the way to the final destination? one of those cost drivers are the ship line cost. how much does it cost to move attainer across the ocean? there's a huge dynamic at play.

that's the size of the ship. so a ship that carries 5,000t e.u. can go through the current panama canal and come in to most ports. ships on the ocean right now that carry 12,500t e.u. that requires about a depth of 50 feet. virginia is only important the east coast that can take a ship that requires 50-foot draft. the t requires we have no overhead obstruction. we can take the big ship. we have set the record with the -- came in drafting 49.5 feet. it's cheaper to put cargo on a large ship because of volume. the president has been going around the cut in port in florida talking about infrastructure of the nation's port calling for investment. port officials saying we are about 40 feet. we need to be at least 47 feet

dredging in order take a super tanker coming from new panama canal. explain that. >> guest: right. it's about the depth of the ocean. depth not only to our port but also sea lanes to get in. most people assume once you get to the ocean it's deep and it's just not at every port. we are the only port authorized to go to 55 feet. not only that, we have right now a capacity to do about 2.5 million a year. federal work dollars across the eastern sea board port, virginia ranks number eight in the amount of federal dollars we're getting $27 million compared to jacksonville, $28 4 billion. we have the current depth. we have the ability to get 55 feet. we have the potential capacity. we say it's a great investment

for the national dollars. >> host: what are you asking for from the federal government? >> guest: we are asking for more federal dollars. i think an important point to think out. we have the premiere gateway for the east coast. and so, you know, a lot of our consumer products go on train to midwest. we want our partners mt. -- midwest to feel like the port of virginia is their port. we are serviced by two class a railroad. but help us get our products to the midwest where there's a larger consumer base as well. we want, you know, the delegations in the midwest states to join with ours and you'll be meeting congressman bobby scott and scott shortly to go after the federal dollars to make virginia premiere place to bring in cargo. >> host: what is it likes like right now for the processfect of getting federal dollars? washington is talking about sequestration, spending cutting, how do you get the money? >> guest: the next two

gentleman you get on will have an answer. >> host: rodney? >> guest: it's heavy. it's difficult thing to come by these -- days. federal dollars are scarsty. -- scarcity. we have the foresight, when i say we i don't include myself. it was our leaders before us. they have a foresight to see the need to address the 50-feet and authorize 55 feet. we have that accomplished. it was accomplished in early 2000. we're well ahead of the curve, and the good thing about it is that it's cheaper to dredge here in virginia than it is virtually anywhere else on the east coast. so we have the beautiful [inaudible] area right behind you that they have a great access to the port. very, inexpensive for us to

dredge. . >> guest: i think we have soft bottom out. we are picking up sand and relocating. other porting with, i'll use new york. they have dynamite, explode. move it off. it might be a dpirches of $40 per square foot to $100. the advantage of dredging in the port of virginia are huge. >> host: that means the epa is involved. that's one federal agency that has a role at the nation's sport along with fema. and the coast guard of course. we want to turn to you and get your questions and comments about the nation's ports as we are live from the port of virginia. let me begin with bob in fort lauder dale. democratic caller. hi. >> caller: i think. he answered the question about the modification to the port and the panama canal extension. i wondered how much is it a democrat or a republican issue

rather than just an democratic -- economic issue. >> guest: that's a great point. in virginia we are getting ready to have an election. we'll have new governor. which way it goes is not important. i've had the opportunity to sit down with both candidates. they understand the vie brans of the port of virginia. they understand the economic engine. they understand it's not a political football. we are blessed to have leadership in the state currently and in the future that understands. it the panama canal thing, i think it's interesting we hear at lot of talk about the expansion of the panama canal. it can hold 5,000. the new panama canal -- the ships can hold much larger 12,500. >> host: how much are we talking about in goods with 12,000 containers? >> one container hold 84,000cd. >> host: which is?

>> guest: a lot of cd. >> host: which okay. i didn't know. >> guest: there's other statistics. it hold a lot of things. when you look at the cost of shipping. if you were to ship from hong kong through the port of virginia through the panama canal it's about 11,020. if you were to ship through the suez canal 11,700. it's not that much difference towards distance. the ready namic is how much does it cost for a ship to through the panama canal. it might be more economically feasible to 0 come from the suez to get to virginia. the whole panama canal dynamic will play out over the next few years. >> host: the president's call for more infrastructure because of the issue he's saying for the united states to stay competitive for the port to stay competitive this is what needs to happen.

it f they don't come to the united where would they go? the big super tankers? >> guest: one dynamic there are feeder ports that can build in the caribbean that can take larger ships and we would get smaller here. we want to be able to take the -- advantage come in first port of call or last port of call. the first will unload. the last will export. we want them coming here and smaller ship coming. >> host: chris, a republican in fort meyers, florida. >> caller: howe are you. >> host: good morning. >> caller: good morning to you. we talk about how big the virginia was and the security of it and how deep the waters are and what comes to your port, and how big the containers are. is there anything else you would like to tell us about our situation here?

>> host: chris, are you still there? >> caller: yes, ma'am. >> host: repeat your question. i missed the last part. anything they want to tell you about what? >> caller: anything else you would like to tell us about our situation in the united states, i mean, -- >> host: i see what your say -- you're saying. i vulnerability of letting the information out and how it works. the security threat. the question were asking about our viewers this morning. embassies closing down. >> guest: sure. since 9/11 there have been huge changes in in security on port facility. as you know today, when you came on the facility you had to have an escort, we have security badges that are required. you need to go through a federal transportation worker id to get your credential to make sure

that you're eligible to be on the terminal. we have customs and border protection on site that are scanning containers and opening certain containers up to ensure that the cargo that is in there is what it's represented to be. we also scan 100% of the containers that go out for radiation. so no dirty bomb, no nuclear threat leaving the terminal. and we also very cognizant of cybersecurity too. the brocking institute had a study that was done a few years ago on cybersecurity and the possible effect on port. two years ago, we commissioned a study to address our cybersecurity threat. had an assessment done over the last year. we have been implementing the

result of the assessment. we actually hired a firm to come in and do intrusion detection to see if they could penetrate the fire wall, and -- >> host: for that type of situation do you ask for federal money to upgrade your computer system to avoid a hacker? al qaeda or otherwise? or is it something that the state has to pay for out of pocket? ? >> guest: since 9/11 there have been federal security dollars allocatedded. it initially started as allocated for physical security. more and more the dollars are being used for cybersecurity. we have done that. >> guest: a lot of the dollars are matched by state dollars as well. there's a contribution from the state. >> guest: yes. >> host: security. a little bit more. let's talk about it. before a container is put on a ship from another country, is it getting looked at by u.s. officials? >> it is.

there are officials in the home port around the world that are inspecting -- not every containers but inspecting containers. they are also doing the same here in the u.s. . >> host: is that some sort of voluntary partnership that the u.s. has. some sort of treaty agreement if >> guest: it is. there's a ct certification, i don't remember what the acronym stands for, but it's a security certification at the port has and many other ports around the world have. >> host: if a country is not participating in that. do you still take containers from that country? >> guest: we do, but they are monitored differently. the virginia port authoritity -- [inaudible] >> host: and here at the port of virginia, what countries are we talking about here? what countries are bringing in containers? >> guest: yeah.

our biggest partners are china, germany, brazil, india,. >> host: what are we bringing in to the country? what are we export out from the port of virginia? ? >> guest: generally we're importing finished goods, exporting raw materials. >> host: okay. >> guest: raw materials send them overseas. and get the finished goods come back. >> host: okay. give us an example. >> guest: we import auto parts, any finished goods come here. we export, again, paper products, wood, logs, poultry. >> host: and i want to go back to security. that caller made the question has concerns about what we're talking about here today. one aspect that we didn't talk about is once a container is put on a truck. every truck is scanned. explain the process. what happens when it's leaving

port of virginia to take it across the country? >> guest: before it goes to our truck, it has to go through a radiation device. it can change -- [inaudible] and the radiation scan will detect minor amount of radiation. >> host: we go to bruce in virginia. independent caller. hi, bruce. >> caller: good morning. >> host: good morning, bruce. you ron the air. go ahead. thanks for waiting. >> caller: you commented about the port in virginia. could you explain a little further the purpose of the inland port and the areas in the united states that it serves, and how cargo is dispersed to the port and from the port? >> guest: i would -- we call our virginia inland

port. [inaudible] it's what we call an transfer facility. cargo moves from by rail from here to the virginia port. then it's taken off and moved by truck to the final destination. it enables the end user to big box retailers or manufacturers they have truckers make multiple transient in day. they name to the virginia inland port five times a day. if they had to drive down here to nor they could only do it once a day. ..

the virginia maritime association has a trucker's training program that we are always looking for truck drivers that is probably the best place to go is to contact the virginia maritime association and you can use on line as well. >> host: are those truck drivers each person affected for security concerns? >> guest: they are. every truck driver that call support has to have what they call a transportation identification card and that is vetted through the federal government. >> host: