>> what the right the ms. cohen is a bridge? is it that sort of teamwork? something to think about. >> i think it's the right game your come up with constant -- >> basketball is always the right game. on that note thank you both very, very much. [applause] >> visit booktv.org to watch any of the programs you see here online. type the author or book title in the search bar in the upper left

side of the page and click search. you can also shoot anything you see on booktv.org easily like looking sure on the upper left side of the page and selecting format. booktv streams live online for 48 hours every weekend with top nonfiction books and authors book booktv.org. >> now, tamim ansary, author of "games without rules: the often interrupted history of afghanistan," and atta arghandiwal author of "lost decency: the untold afghan story," the authors discuss the past, present and future of their country. this hour-long event was hosted by the commonwealth club of california. >> good afternoon and welcome to today's meaning of the commonwealth club of california. i'm robert rosenthal, executive director of the center for investigative reporting. i'll be the chair today. today's program called

afghanistan. we also welcome are listening and internet audiences and invite everybody to visit us online at www.commonwealthclub.org. now it's my pleasure to introduce our distinguished speakers. tamim ansary was born in kabul where his father was university professor and his american mother taught english. time to left for the u.s. in 1964. is a writer, lecturer, teacher and editor. he has written several noteworthy books and awarding books including again, "games without rules." he will sign this book after the program. atta arghandiwal was also born in kabul. his father was a prominent military officer in lead. after high school, atta served in the afghan air force. in the political situation change in the 1980s and the russians invade, atta fled to germany and came to you is what is enjoyed a successful banking

career. like tamim, he was shocked by 9/11. he visited afghanistan recently and you can read about his amazing journey back to afghanistan in his book, "lost decency: the untold afghan story." you also sign the book after the program. i think it is program will be very interesting. you may hear different perspectives. you will learn a lot about the history of afghanistan and did you read these two books, you will get in one, and his book, the context and history of afghanistan but if you return once but you see a character who comes to life. so we'll start off, please welcome tamim. [applause] >> thank you all for being here. thank you to the commonwealth club. let me just check the time so don't go over. so i'm sure all of you are very interested in what's going on in afghanistan right now. who is contesting for the

presidential seats in the elections next year, what happens after the nato forces withdraw, if they do, but as a historian we can get into all that, but as historian what i'm interested in is how we got here. and i feel for how we got here is part of the question of where do we go from here. you know, in this book, "games without rules," i've gone back through what i consider the origins of the afghan nation state which is not too and it centuries ago and i traced a narrative arc of that country, that in merging developing country which is still not quite developed, and i would note that the origins go back to about the same period that the united states is taking shape, late colonial era. and what they see is that in the early period of this territory that we now call afghanistan was populated by many tribes, clans,

different populations but it was also permeated by a sense of uniformity of culture, of which islam was perhaps the most important binding factor but they're also values in common, a sense of common history, and something about the social structure that you would find. find. so that there were various levels of power but the people in the villages and the people in the cities and the rulers and the peasants and the poor and the rich, they might have conflicts but they considered themselves also to be part of the same world. then in the course of history what happened is very different cultural entities suddenly appeared on the afghan scene, and it was pressing in on this area and these were the global powers whose culture was basically western, and who saw this territory as an important spot because the strategic considerations in the contest with each other globally.

so now, for the afghans, for anybody who is part of the ruling elite in afghanistan or wanted to rule the country, it was necessary for them to negotiate with two different for different entities, and one was the outside power, whoever that might be, the british, whatever. and then there was the old afghanistan, the original afghanistan, this world of clerics and elders that came from the grassroots and the villages, and the networks, the tribes, and that world still had, you know, the old culture that characterized the life in this area. so what i find is that over time, in the way that, you know, if you put a liquid in a centrifuge, the heavier stuff separates from the lighter stuff, there's a sense in which afghan society also separated into two societies.

and there was this urban westernized elite militarist, other inward looking old country that was afghanistan. and these are both afghan, you know, these are both aspects of afghan society and they're in contention and have been in contention for control of the identity of afghanistan. so this is a story that's been going on in afghanistan from the beginning partly caused by the various incursions and interventions, but then there's the separate story which is that every four years or so, without fail like clockwork, well, not quite like clockwork, but about every 40 or some foreign global power has tried to commend and dominate the afghan scene and control it and use it for some purposes. there have been periods of afghan history when the rulers of afghanistan have taken

advantage of the geographical position of afghanistan, to play a sort of a neutrality card using the favoritism towards one global power, playing that against the possibility of leaning towards the of the global power to keep both of them somewhat at bay. this has been the diplomatic strategy of successful afghan rulers, whenever there have been any. and the cold war, for example, was a notable period. both the ussr and the united states were interested in afghanistan. they both were competing to enlarge their influence in the country, and somehow because of the counterbalancing of those two forces, there was a frequent afghans were sort of in control of their own destiny. and during that period you saw modernization and change in afghanistan that was more rapid and more sort of dramatic than you've seen anywhere, you know, in this country. that period ended when the

pendulum of trying to swing back and forth between the inner afghanistan and the outer world just, it started to swing so fast and so far that it finally crashed and the country's government to a coup by a small communist group which was then quickly was followed by the soviet invasion. and i would contend that from that day to this we are still in the after effects of the soviet invasion. the soviet invasion pretty much destroyed the fabric of the country. you know, the 6 million refugees that it does out of the country, the destruction of the villages, the tearing apart of the tribal structures, and the creation of a state of war in which, you know, the old traditional afghan systems for generating leadership gave way to a new system, which was in that state

of chaos, if you had a gun and you're good with it, you would probably end up being an important guy. so that brought into being a whole other class of afghan leaders who are commanders. now they call them warlords. and that entered the fray. when the soviets left, those guys all started fighting each other, and they tore the city support. in the wake of that came the taliban. so now we are in the country, and i think we have come in with something of the same idea that the soviets had which was, this is a primitive country and a lot of trouble, and if we can restore everything and produce material benefits for the people, they will be grateful and they'll come over to our side. and there's more to it than that, however. afghans are very interested in the true benefits like anyone is, but there is a question of the reconstruction of the afghan institutions, the society, the

soul, the family structure and the reconciliation of all these contending factors on the afghan scene. this taliban business is not completely separate from the contentions within afghan society over dominating the identity of afghanistan. how much time have i used? i can keep going? all right. i was so efficient that is set on most everything i have to say last night so now i could go back into all of that at great length. but i will just say this. that i went back to afghanistan 2012, this last year, and part of my mission was to help a group take bare root trees to different villages and plant them. and so we went some distance from kabul. we didn't go to the really war-torn areas because their war-torn. you know.

and we were timid. but we went where we could, and would lend, for example, to my home ancestral village near kabul, and then we went out to some further districts. and i saw things in afghanistan that were interesting for me. because what i saw was on the one hand, there were aspects of the modern world that to me were permeating to the furthest reaches of world afghanistan. actually i went to central afghanistan where those buddhist used to be. you might remember those. they were destroyed either taliban. and then from there we went out on, we want to see something someone told us about that was a rock structure. so that was like a couple hours drive out all the little town, so we were really way out in the middle of nowhere. and there i look at and see a little village clinging to the cliffs, and they see something

glimmering white. and i go, what is that, you know? so we look closer come and wipe it is, it's a solar panel. and even in those distance -- distant places they know about solar panels. and next to the solar panel, what do you call those things? satellite dish. so this village has at least enough electricity from the solar panel to run at least one television set. probably not more than one, you know, because that's expensive and that village will have that one television set in some commentary that people come together. but that in itself is a permutation of the outside world in afghanistan. and you might say, well, what can you get on a television set in the central afghanistan? you can get programming from kabul. my goodness, there's so much

programming coming out of kabul. they have like 20 tv stations. it's true that those are a motley crew of tv stations. some of them are owned by, that i call them warlords? so there is a certain element of control of public information that way. but at the same time, some of these tv stations in kabul are putting out such aggressive investigative news. you guys would be proud of it. they go to the places where these suicide bombings have taken place. they find a video and the broadcasted and that has an effect on public opinion. were if you just year, you know, someplace was bombed and you can manipulate a spent on that and when you see people dying. so that's one fact of the. the other aspect of it is they have aggressively called to the carpet afghan officials were involved in punitive corruption, and they bring the documents and

they questioned him. not that that's stopped any of the corruption, but i think it's important immediate exist, and people even in the distant villages can see. on the other hand, you know, i will tell you that i went there and they stayed with my relative of mine, and he's someone i'd i never met but are closely tied to the village. but he is, i don't know, second cousins second cousin or something. very close and afghan terms. and i went to his house, and it was two days before i saw his wife, because it wasn't clear that i was close enough to the family to be admitted to the really anniversary goal. and then i will also report to you that after that, it was like okay, this guy is family, and then our dinners shifted from just him and me and the boy children to the family dinner. and so then we were all together

then. and so, now he will say to yourselves, the woman was kept in the back room and she was oppressed something or another. but i'll tell you, once we're all together i was thinking i want to go there and do this, and the wife was saying, you're not going to go there and do that. you're going to the village to visit the shrine of our great, great ancestor. i don't have done. no. you're going to make them. so there was not, there was not anything squelched about this woman. there is a structured that was characteristic of afghan society in the distant past, in my day in afghanistan, and it's still there all over the country. so the negotiation of the old afghanistan and the culture of the outside world is very deeply mixed up with what is going to happen going forward.