show the strategies' the insurgents had employed over the centuries. . . >> okay, ladies and gentlemen. we will now take questions. please raise your hand at as i acknowledge you, the folks with

the microphones we'll get to you. please identify yourselves. all right. thank you. >> thank you what was the luck -- excuse me, the rule of law in regards to this. >> well, it's very hard to win with this type of strategy. they still didn't manage to pacify afghanistan in the 1980s, even though they were wanting to kill a million people. because the nazis and the soviets offered nothing positive. they offered no reason why the people of yugoslavia or afghanistan would support them. they offered nothing but death and desolation it was not a winning dratted he. people want to see the rule of

law. not necessarily our law, but there law. that is something that our people respond positively to. rather from stealing from them and raping their daughters, they will be more likely to support those soldiers. i would argue that this is a crucial element of successful counterinsurgency. >> right here? >> hello. how do we do this? we have done this before twice in iraq and afghanistan. there have been. periods of counterinsurgency. a lot of times we are taken down by extensive amounts of nation building. we have to do that every time or is there a cheaper and easier

way to do this? >> ideally you would not have to wage these counter insurgencies by sending foreign troops to lambs. ideally you would be able to partner with foreign troops in their countries to enable them to get better, which is something that we have done with some degree to success such as colombia or the philippines and we have seen that strategy backfire more recently in the country of mali where troops were overthrowing the elected governor. but to my mind, a template of how to do this successfully comes from somebody that we forget these days edward lansdale, the quiet american was once a legend who joined the air force and the cia and he was sent to the philippines in late 1940s when they were facing one of the biggest communist uprisings. what he did was he sent an army to back them up and drove them out into the boondocks to get to

know the people of the ability philippines. he ran out there to figure out what was really going on. the most important thing that he did was he identified a great leader that could lead them with some support. that was when a filipino centered her, he pushed them as a defense minister and then the president was a leader who routed out the corruption that was causing people turn away from the philippine government and he entered the brutality on the part of the filipino army in which was causing villagers to flee. he established clean elections that they could possibly have. this is an effective unit that we need to think about today because i think afghanistan has really suffered over the course of the last decade by not having great leadership.

that is the rule of law. afghanistan is going to have an election in 2014 and we have a huge stake in the outcome. who will succeed hamid karzai. will it be someone who will be honest, uncorrupt, tough, a true leader that the people can respect. i would suggest to you that we need our modern day edward lansdale's who can truly understand loyalty and find an honest man even in afghanistan and promotion as much as we possibly can into the office of the presidency. that can be worth more than entire divisions. >> we will take a question from over here.

>> i wanted to return to a point he made a couple of seconds ago about arguing the rule of law and how that rolls into the biggest role of what we are seeing in the country of mali. more broadly across this, we now have an organization that is portraying themselves as the rule of law organizations they claim it is culturally more appropriate to the region. sharia law, cutting people's hands off and then the question becomes is there a universal rule of law that is humane or would we have to go another way with the senate organization.

>> when they try to impose their rule of law, this code, which makes the puritans look like easy-going vacationers by comparison. when they actually tried to impose this code, even in die hard conservative areas, it proves so unpopular and that is why al qaeda in attacks after the major backlash in 2007 because the people of this province did not like the fact that they were told they would be executed for smoking a cigarette. the people of afghanistan turned against this code. this is hardly two of the most cosmopolitan countries in the world. the islamists in northern mali

have tried to impose this code and i suspect it is not very popular. but the reason why these groups can have enduring appeal is because there is not a good alternative in the problem that we face in afghanistan. it is as brutal and unpopular, the government has often been worse because they have not delivered any kind of trust. so that shows that they are less corrupt and you will get a more or less honest judgment on him with barbaric severity and that is not the ideal that people want, but it may be better than the alternative. so i think the challenges that we face is to try to have nonfundamentalist institutions and rule of law that deliver a modicum of justice, which is what the what the people want. not to do with the kind of barbaric mass that these

islamist groups do it with. we can do that, we can be successful. >> thank you. what about sharia law? >> is the power of the media has grown, the strategies are becoming less successful and these days it worked in some secession, it worked with russia and chechnya with what was happening there. but look at what happened in libya. qaddafi was trying to put down an inimitable style. and there's no doubt in my mind that 100 years ago he would have succeeded.

before he could come in, towards benghazi and kill all the rebels. and they intervened to stop that. in the case of syria, we have not intervened, but other outside powers have and the rebels have been able to get support from the gulf states, which keeps him in turn keeps him from being swept off the board. bashar al-assad showed that support from iran. at the moment it is more or less stalemated because both sides have some degree of support, but it is not overwhelming and bashar al-assad is not able to pull it all the way. it is about the incredible importance. he does have support among some of the other minorities because they had a claim to power with a

small degree of legitimacy left. they are forgetting something by their excesses including a prominent role in their ranks. so i suspect that this will end as an insurgency. the problem is what the country will look like afterwards because governments are not that hard to overthrow. what is hard to establish security and stability afterwards. that is the challenge and that is where we have struggled even more in iraq and afghanistan. that is where we will struggle even more. >> thank you so much. my name is tyler and i worked on

the campaign this fall. he mentions it as a weapon against al qaeda. and we are sending money to help hospitals. al qaeda build them and gets credit for helping the community. >> we can use soft power, but we have to do it more intelligently than we have done it today. it is mind-boggling how many tens of billions of dollars we wasted and this includes white elephant projects of no earthly use in battling the insurgency. we will build electricity plants or water treatment plants and i'm not sure why we were doing all this.

so if you build stuff and you don't control the city, guess what, the saudis are going to claim credit for it. they're not going to come over to your side. they're not going to commit suicide because they love a water treatment plant. you have to have basic security. so i mean, it's kind of obvious that this is the essence in 2007. it was the realization that you can't just do drive-bys. you have to be able to protect the people and at that point they will come to your side and some jobs programs to put

unemployed young men to work. but at the end of the day it comes to security by legitimacy and a lot of public works projects is not going to win a lot of counter insurgencies. >> the special forces in iraq, i'm wondering if you could talk about the internal strategy going forward. because being a part of this and having been responsible for the same area that a conventional brigade would handle in different places includes very different approaches to counter insurgency.

where we take ownership especially towards iraq and afghanistan. we have a lot that we are discussing and i'm wondering if you had any comments on that. >> first, let me reiterate what i said earlier, which includes thank you for your service. it is because of people like you that we can accomplish the mission and i think we have paid a very heavy price in our recent military for our resistance. we went into vietnam with an arrogant attitude on the part of some, such as the u.s. army chief of staff in the early 1960s who famously said that any good soldier can handle guerrillas. this notion that we don't have to worry about guerrillas. but they fight in very different

manners and the same armed forces wound up losing to the vietcong. so along the way i think the army and the marine corps learned some valuable lessons and they were pretty formidable as the counter insurgents. then they were in the waste paper basket and they said, we are done with that. so let's get back to fighting in that army. when they went into that, i'm not talking about just the special forces, they were not well prepared. so i think we paid a heavy price for the fact that we didn't even have a field counter counterinsurgency until the end of 2006. along the way getting back to what i said a second ago, the army is an adaptive learning organization and along the way all of these ncos have figured

out what to do. they didn't have any manual. it is figured it out. i think in the last decade it has become the finest insurgency force. what they were able to do is mind-boggling because they are manipulating so many different lines of operation. they are incredibly good at doing this kind of stuff which is a lot harder than just laying down channel presets and accept apply those to eight specific context. they understand that in a way that they did not at the beginning of the week. my concern is that what will happen once we get out of afghanistan. and i hear a lot of people saying that thank goodness that is over. we never want to do that again, let's get back. we would fight someone like that if they would be obliging up. well, you know, i wish there

were people that were more leaders as stupid as saddam hussein. but i'm concerned that they may not be because he was very obliging with these tank armies and these had me sign so that we could annihilate them. i suspect that our adversaries have to learn and some who wound up getting killed. some of our adversaries have learned that that is what we are going to see a lot more of in the future and i'm very worried that the marine corps will be in for a nasty surprise because we are very concerned that they will forget the lessons they have learned that such a great cost over the last decade. >> i'm going to change my mind because we're running we are running out of time. i will ask max boot to do a closing and i would like you to stay in place for a second and

let him get out the door because he is willing to stay for a couple of minutes to sign some books. he has another appointment to get to. max, i give you the final two minutes to wrap it up. >> the way that we think about unconventional warfare is all messed up. but it is the norm. that it is not going away and we better be ready for it. our enemies are adapting new ways to attack us and they will not do it on a conventional battlefield standing toe to toe. they are going to attack our weak spots, whether it is the weapons of mass destruction or cyberweapons or staging hit and run raids and places like

algeria, this is what it's all about. we will never achieve platonic idea of warfare because there have been very few throughout history. so like it or not, we better get ready, which i fear and suspect that the future will look a lot like the past, which means that there are going to be a lot of unconventional warfare going on in the future. [applause] >> are special booktv continues tomorrow night with books on u.s. supreme court decisions. at 8:00 p.m. eastern, author of chasing gideon, at 8:50 p.m., martin clancy and tim o'brien talk about their book, murder at the supreme court. after that, the story of an

african american community that ended school segregation. booktv is on c-span2 in prime time this month. >> you're watching c-span2 at politics and public affairs weekdays featuring live coverage of the u.s. senate. on weeknights walked key public policy events and every weekend the latest nonfiction authors and books on booktv. you can see past programs and get schedules at her website and join in the conversation on social media websites. >> what are you reading this summer? booktv would like to know. >> i am a voracious reader. particularly a voracious reader of history. this summer i started with two books. one is called revolutionary summer by one of my most favorite historians. a look at what was happening from a political perspective and

the military perspective in the summer of 1776. what i love is the detail and how the cause was able to prepared the continental ragtag group against the mightiest military power on earth. the british and the cause in their beliefs that enable them to win the war and the other book is a little bit more entertaining. it is called the children of fortune and it is about the vanderbilt vampire. the extraordinary wealth had dissipated. so he really didn't have a descendent who is considered among the richest americans anymore. i enjoy that because it talks about just how temp oral wealth was in the importance of the american longevity and good economic policies.

>> let us know what you are reading this summer. post on her facebook page or send us an e-mail at booktv at c-span.org. >> our backs we focus on the obama administration's decision to delay limits on out-of-pocket expenses for consumers under the new health care law. from "washington journal", this is 40 minutes. >> we continuing the new health care law with kaiser health news. today we are joined by julie appleby on the decision to delay limits on out-of-pocket expenses. this is a subject that has gotten a lot of attention. a topic that you are writing about back in april. what is actually being delayed here? >> starting in february with a document that the obama administration put up on their

website with little fanfare, it talked about questions that employers might have been within that document there was one piece that delayed the employer plans and a part of the health law that defines out-of-pocket costs that consumers have paid of their own wallets. you pay a co-pay for prescription drugs or the health law. so it's about $6300 per individual or 1200 for a family. then there is the need to cap his out-of-pocket expenses. it does not figure that some pay very little attention to this and it is very concerning. such as aids, lupus, diabetes,

treatments should not be delayed for these certain employer plans. so that was back in april when this came out. >> to the obama administration respond to those groups? >> last week is when this happened. pretty much the administration affirmed that they were not going to reconsider the delay of a certain provision. it caught a lot of attention because it comes at a time when the delays are in the news. they have delayed a bigger provision of the health law that says those employers with 50 or more workers have to offer insurance or pay a penalty. so that has been caught up in the mix of delays and this is part of the discussions. >> as we talk about out-of-pocket expenses, the phone lines are changed up.

those can give us a call at (202)585-3880. if you are uninsured, give us a call at 202-58-5388 to. we will keep those numbers up on the screen as well. so you can select which number to dial in at. so how'd do some get included in the original health care law? >> some plans have some very high out-of-pocket costs. it is not unusual. especially when people buy their own coverage because they don't get it through their jobs. it is not unusual to see a copayment. they wanted to create a uniform cap.

some people choose that because the premiums are lower and some don't really know that they will be vulnerable to these expenses if they do fall through. so that if ex-employer plans and will not affect those folks who buy their own coverage because they don't get coverage through their jobs. markets that opened, these calves will be required. >> when these were being put into the original health care law, was it a controversial piece? >> i do not believe so. >> here's the document back from february that you mentioned in which this announcement was made in the frequently asked questions about the affordable care act implementation. please take us to the reasoning. what do they say to the

government on why they need more time to implement this? >> this affects a separate plan for medicare and a plan for drugs and some of those may have separate out-of-pocket caps. and some employers said that it's difficult to get the computer systems coordinate. so it results in needing a little but more time to provide that and put it in that document and they would have time to do that. >> talk is through the political impact of this delay you wrote about it in april and it gets a front page story in "the new york times" last month. there is a story on this delay. please talk about the situation now and what this delay has meant. >> there is a lot of talk about

the employer mandate. that is when they say that they have given the employer's one year to go. republicans have said that other parts of the law should also be delayed. for example the requirement that all individuals carry coverage or could face a fine. they are calling for that. even though it happened back in february and will be other pieces of the law be ready to go and will the market places open on time in october. it has entered into that mix right now. >> again we have the phone lines up. if you buy your own insurance, we have aligned for you as well. uninsured, your line is up on

the screen as well. we will go first to dave from north carolina. good morning to you. you're on with julie appleby of "kaiser health news." >> caller: thank you for taking my call. a lot of individuals that purchase their own health insurance, i was curious as to how the checks that the administration put into effect were even needing to have a plan >> guest: he is talking about a certain disease like cancer and perhaps buying those on top of a regular insurance plan and i think what will happen is that

the new policy that will be sold will be required to cover a range of essential benefits. there will be deductibles and co-pays, but what a lot of them are saying is that these plans are generally much more comprehensive than plans that are currently sold in the individual market. they will have a broader and more comprehensive coverage and then it could be more expensive than what they have on the market and so i think that that might reflect what he will see. >> host: we are talking to julie appleby "kaiser health news." it's a nonprofit news service from the kaiser family foundation. a nonpartisan health policy research and it's also not affiliated with kaiser

permanente. talk about your specific area of cartridge. >> uncover a lot about what happens with employers and insurers and consumers like this gentleman who buys his policy on his own. i was at usa today for a long time before i was at kaiser health news. and we spoke to a lot of people who buy on their health insurance market. >> host: we have the employer paid health care line with david from clearwater florida. good morning. go ahead. >> caller: good morning. yes, can you discuss the annual premiums for government? >> guest: i do not know the answer to that. i suspect if you are self-employed, i'm not sure.

>> host: tom from arlington on our uninsured line. good morning to you. >> caller: hello. i don't understand why obama health care wants to affect me. i am 69 years old and i have never been to a hospital. and i cannot see why why i should be required to pay money into this obamacare. to take care of people who have been to the hospital who are always sick. everyone sounds like they are dying in this country. that is all i have to say.

>> host: stick around and we will have julie jumped in and have a question for you. >> guest: there is a program that provides coverage for folks over 65 years old. are you on medicare? >> caller: i am not on medicaid. >> host: you plan on purchasing insurance under the new health care law when it comes out or do you plan on taking a penalty that will kick in soon? >> caller: it depends on the cost and the penalty. >> host: can you take us through that on how it works and when they can get to read. >> guest: starting october 1, there will be new marketplaces and the cost of coverage and deciding whether or not they want to enroll. he can go online and i think he said he was in washington state and he can see what the cost would be for a person of his age

and where he lives. he may find that it is affordable. it's a little bit in the eye of the ball holder. if he earns less than $46,000 per year, there is going to be subsidies to help people purchase coverage. so with the subsidy and the premium price, you could find it is less than he is paying off or it could be more than he is paying now. it will have to depend on what he is currently purchasing. >> host: again a question on this april story. will this affect employer-based insurance and could you explain how that works again and how we will have these calves and place in january of 2014? >> guest: yes, they will have these in place. that's about $6300. which sounds like a lot. but it's actually less than some of the current policies in the

individual market. so the employer plans that are affected, these are plans as we mentioned it had two different policies. a policy for the medical and a policy for the drug program and this delay only affects various kinds of plans that are giving us another year to coordinate and create this single cab. i saw some statistics that show about 2% of covered workers have a policy that has a 6000-dollar a year out of pocket max. so that is sort of about 2% of covered workers and remember that most get coverage from jobs. so you have these people at 2% that are still at a large number >> host: dan is on the employer ensured line and we appreciate you being on with julie of

"kaiser health news". >> caller: thank you for having me. do you have any bias towards any particular part of the health care law? >> host: can you answer the question? >> guest: i am merely a reporter of the law. how will the laws affect people and employers. how will it affect insurers. what does it mean. i am not here as a supporter or opponent of the law. i am here as a supporter. >> caller: will the health care law allow her employer to just cover her and abolish or allow them to kick spouses off the policy and have to send me to an

exchange? >> they have always been allowed to do decide what they want. they could kick you off if they decided they didn't want to cover the spouses anymore. nothing changes that. that is something that they have to decide what they want to do. if so, they could go to the exchange and many employers say that they offer benefits because they want to recruit and retain workers. so they see it as a benefit and a perk to keep workers. to whether or not they decide to take action is a controversy that they will continue to make. >> host: do you have a follow-up >> over the past year, my wife worked at a hospital and because of the budget cuts and the like,

they have laid off so many people in the hospital just in the last seven months alone. in the obamacare has forced them to make these decisions about the health care and about employee benefits because before obamacare was passed, they did not have to make a decision about this. they are basically making decisions that affect voters and i don't think that they really worry about it and our well-being or not because with health care law forces them to do things that otherwise they would not do husband can you talk about that what they're doing to prepare? >> guest: sure. they are looking at reductions in their payment update. sequestration has also talked about this.

they are cutting back. more broadly in general, we are hearing in reporting on some employer saying that they are reducing hours for people who are below 30 hours a week so they would not be required to offer insurance or pay a tax. and that has been put off for a year. but some say they are going to reduce hours and others say that they will not hire additional people. we do not have the final statistics. we will have to see what happens when they do this in 2006. we saw more people taking coverage through their jobs as a result of the law. we're certainly hearing some say that they are coming back right now. >> host: we are talking about the out-of-pocket costs and a provision that will extend when the cap would kick in.

supergroups fear that patients could be hit with large out-of-pocket costs. if we could talk about this, how do they determine the capitals and will they change over the years. >> it will be tied to something called the health savings account. one of the things they wanted to do is combine your deductible and copayment. his right now when you do this, there may be an annual deductible of a certain amount and the copayments. some plans include your annual deductible and your out-of-pocket maximum. this says that you must include it as part of your annual maximum that you might have to

pay. so the little bit more clear for some others. >> host: next caller, please go ahead. you're on live julie appleby. >> guest: my daughter has no income and has a plethora of illnesses including lupus. other than what my husband and i provide, we pay all of her expenses. living in florida, i'm wondering what option she will have in order to obtain insurance? >> guest: may ask how old she is? >> caller: she is 30 years old. >> guest: so in your situation you could see what is available in florida. you can check the prices.

one of the things that changes dramatically is that insurers can no longer reject people with medical conditions like your daughter. they can't say that they won't take you because you are sick. some states are expanding medicaid about half the states are expanding 138 of the federal poverty level. the states that chose not to do that would not be an option necessarily where your daughter would qualify in a state like that. but starting on october 1, you could go into the exchange that will be a federal exchange and you'll be able to see what the prices are and what you might qualify for in terms of her

income and it will be a sliding scale subsidy. >> caller: she has no income. and she would probably qualify for the maximum out of subsidy. and you need to find out how much that would be. the question is whether she will qualify for medicaid. >> caller: i do not think she will. >> host: you bring up the issue of florida being a federal exchange. can you talk more about that? spent about 34 states have decided that they are going to let the federal government run all or part of the functions of these new marketplaces. they did not want to participate in the health care law. they are allowing the federal government to run us. the 17 states are making a little different. they can do more governance of the plans. that is the split.

there are some different funding streams for both of those that will actually getting money to do some outreach and woman efforts and the federal program. >> host: we have heard the term navigators. the fed toward $67 million in grants to help consumers navigate the health law. explain navigators and what they will be doing. >> guest: so they decided to give the 67 million to about 100 nations nationwide. they will be hiring and training something called navigators who will help people go through the enrollment process and help them

get enrolled. the money is going to the 34 states due to the exchange. the other states that are doing their own had already gotten some contrast. texas got about $11 million and it is one of the states that they have about $11 million to do the outreach for. it includes at least $37 million and they are doing their own marketplace and so they are able to do more effort and outreach. >> host: how much training duties navigator folks have and do they advocate for a certain policy but how do they go about helping people understand the program? >> guest: that is one of the

concerns that there might not be enough time between now and october 1. they're worried about being adequate training, what are the safeguards, they must have a least 20 hours of training. many some additional requirements about licensure and background checks and some states may set some additional rules. but they need at least 20 hours of training. they need to be up and ready to go by october 1. they are not supposed to steer people to a particular plan. to help them through the process of enrolling. >> host: let's go to robert from baltimore. robert, good morning to you. >> caller: i was a city employee for 30 years. during this time i was paying 20% of my policy premium. i returned about 11 years ago

now i'm paying 80% and the city pays 20 and i am paying access plus a deductible. my question is will the obamacare program be able to assist me. i cannot receive medicare is 165, so i still have a few years ago. the second question is on the secondary coverage on health care like this insurance at all, we have enrolled and paying a substantial premium. they refuse to pay anything until the policy actually expired. that was a waste of time.

>> host: the one talk about how this will impact him. >> guest: you will be able to go on and they have already posted some rates in his state. so in baltimore, some of the prices have been posted so far for a 50-year-old. it ranges from about 267 per month to 470 month. so he could go look and see what is available. it sounds like a little but less than 800 is paying right now. you can also see if he qualifies for a subsidy. without works is that it is a sliding scale. so at the end of the scale he spent about 2% toward the premium. at the upper end it is 9.5% rates of use than that, then the subsidy kicks in and pays the rest. so he could be looking at policy

of a couple hundred to $400 per month. >> host: how to someone and robert situation find out the policy information that was just cited. >> guest: he looks up the state help exchange online. if you want to go to the news website we also have a premium watch portion of our site where we can click on that and under the different states we have posted the rates that the states have actually made these public so far, so we're putting them up on our website as we start to see them coming. >> host: that if kaiser health.org. >> caller: good morning. i am a retired federal employee with federal employee health

benefit and i have medicare part b. i do not have medicare part a because when i worked for the government that was not part of my plan because i retired on disability rather young. i need to know how is this obama plan going to affect me in the federal employees health plan. >> that's a very good question. i'm not exactly sure about how the medicare part a part will affect you. but you can go to that health insurance website. you can call the number that they actually set up already. there's a number that they have already set up to maybe you could give a call and ask them about that. more broadly in general we did hear about this discussion and whether or not they will stay and get a subsidy now as they continue. they always had one where they

paid a portion of the premium at 70% and they picked up the rest and that will continue under the new health plan although certain congressional staff will be buying through these exchanges as well. >> host: i became a political issue? >> correct they have the authority to go ahead and just continue to authorize that and they have done that. >> host: jeff is on the uninsured line from texas. good morning to you. >> caller: good morning, how are you doing today. >> host: we are doing great. >> caller: yes, sir. my name is jeff and i have bad news. i have had five surgeries on my knee. when i went to the hospital, they told me it would happen again that the next time if i didn't use my insurance it would be cheaper on a would be cheaper on a promise of another time time it happens i go to the

hospital. so that 24,000-dollar bill that i pay 20% of us might premiums every week -- all of a sudden it came down to my out-of-pocket costs. that was for the anesthesiologist in the hospital. so i need someone to explain why these insurance companies -- why the hospitals will still do their work and do it at a better rate and better cost for individuals. i will take my answer off the line. >> guest: i would say that most hospitals negotiate rates. that is a base rate where they negotiate down from there. so when someone comes in

generally they get stuck negotiating. maybe what they did was offer a bundled rate and they said, you know, it almost sounds like buy one get for free. but it could be if you pay us some cash, we will give you this deal on that is generally not the case. >> host: we talked about what companies are doing this ahead of the implementation on that same subject. in that same subject, can there be a law to ban companies from cutting back hours to stop having to pay for health care. please explain the situation. >> guest: i really doubt that there is a certain number of hours. i think the discussion of how you define full-time work. because the health laws, regulations have defined it as

30 hours per week or more. there are a couple of bills that would define it as 40 hours because it is trying to address the concern. is it 30 hours or 40 hours. will we see this pickup out because of the flawed. because they want to avoid the penalty as it comes out. so i think that there's a lot of discussion of how you define it in purposes of this law. >> host: this is a question from twitter. discuss group rates. >> guest: ineffective in a couple of ways. if it is about how does this affect employer coverage, and berries if you are working for a large or small company. some estimates earlier had said that they don't think that large

employer premiums will be affected very much. for small groups that it might lower the rates in some cases. so on the individual market, the law does require a cooling effect so instead of being part of a smaller pool were your rates could go up rapidly, insurers are required to pool their business into all of the products that they are selling to the rates not be as volatile. >> host: we have peter. >> caller: it has been reported in the media that congress has exempted itself from the affordable care act and its staffers and also federal labor unions of 92% do not want to

participate in the acu. and the seven question that i have is under medicare part b, our senior citizens going to be eligible to pick up the 20% that medicare doesn't pay? >> guest: congress is not exempt from the law. so some staff members are part of the exchange. and in terms of medicare part b, that is a good question. i'm not sure how that's going to work out. >> host: he talked about the out-of-pocket taxes. here is your story from april of this year about the postponing of the out-of-pocket caps. where does the president get to wave congressional

implementation and push off some of these aspects of the law? >> guest: beerbohm administration has said that they have the authority and other folks are questioning whether or not they can do this without an act of congress and i think that this will play out. both sides are saying that they have the authority. some people in congress are saying that they don't even know the obama administration says they do. there could be lawsuits. i haven't seen any yet. >> host: why can't we just delayed health care act until we find out why we need to do in so many different parts of it? is there concern about further delays and calls here? >> guest: you heard yesterday when the president talked about the health care law and the republicans came out with a response. they're concerned. they want to see that individual

mandate provision just like you saw the employer retirement. i have not heard them talking with my sources any indication that that would happen. that is a rather key component in this is a requirement that says really all americans need to buy coverage for the they could potentially face a fine. the fund for series $95 or 1% of income. so that is the fine for not carrying coverage. so insurers are saying that they will be required to sell to everybody, whether or not they have a medical permission or not. so in order to do that, they also need coverage because they are worried that the only people that will sign up will be those who have health problems. we really need to get in the younger and healthier people. the insurance industry really wanted both pieces because they said they were going to have this and they wanted a provision

that they would have us as well. so we are hearing about this in a way as part of the individual mandate. it hasn't happened but it's being discussed at. >> host: we have joanne on our employer insurance line. good morning, you're on with julie appleby. >> caller: i understand you were talking about the congressional employees health benefit plan. i have postal retiree disability. the question is will i also have the benefit of the informal care act. do i have to leave this plan in order to go to the exchange? >> guest: i don't know exactly about that. you may want to look at the exchange and see what the options are. but you may actually have to leave. i'm not entirely sure. the look and see if the prices compare. >> host: julie appleby is with "kaiser health news."

a lot of press last week after a front page "new york times" story. why wasn't this noticed back in april when you did your story about politicians who were tracking this or other individuals that were jumping on these delays? >> it was a consumer story at this point. saying it was the national health council. more than 50 different patient advocacy groups that wrote the letter to the administration and urged them to delay. .. a couple months and we've had the delay in the employer mandate. we're hearing calls for delay in the individual requirement and it becomes more political. it's much more in discussion now.

host: julie appleby with

>> one of the more controversial collections is the white house china. it is controversial at the time in remains a to this day because it is the pattern of the chai the. people at the time did not feel this was inappropriate for will trend even journalists wrote scathing articles and was said it was upsurged another was written that said who will be what g to this lovely meal to see a johnny of fraud at the bottom of the plate? the people at the time thought this was not

appropriate china to have at a presidential dinner but lucy felt this was a way to educate the visiting dignitaries who were not familiar with the flora and fauna of the united states. >> host: first of all, congratulations professor

hanson on another grade book, a "the savior generals." >> guest: thank you for reading it. it is a little different from the past books but i am excited. >> host: tell me how low do you defying a savior general? >> it is ambiguous to not only saved -- save something has to be lost but save your means it should be saved whether it is great general's we're not sure they should have saved the things that they did so i tried to do two things to describe the generals that were put in a position when things did not look too good but then the cause was worth saving. >> host: tell me a little bit about what inspired you to write a book about save your general's at this moment in time and history.

>> guest: we have this great jogger of great leaders that we've read about hannibal, alexander the great, napoleon and wellington and rears most you distill lessons from their military genius and why did napoleon win or we have the antithesis those that were popular in the 20th century who were the worst general's? we delicate situations that general's prevailed but whether we look at strategy your manpower or technology to put in the unenviable position especially in society where public opinion and the bureaucracy had given up. i wanted to find people throughout history should not have one and for not responsible for the bleak situation may yet they salvaged it. >> host: i would love to

go back and talk more of the genres of history by first-ever like to share more about those. >> guest: it was hard to do because everybody asks me that question who was the savior general in george patton saved the american army after the humiliation of north africa. but i was looking particularly those that had a chronological sweet. all the way to david petraeus but also for things that are complete the pessimistic. but if you take the one that was burned out at athens that the greeks even would have thought were without the effort not to recover much of the western part of the byzantine empire.

but we took a small cost compared to what was going on item no but i wish i could say american general's but not very many to do what david petraeus did so lucky unique individuals throughout history chronologically to remind us even a therapeutic sociology era that they are across time and space. >> host: some historians would dispute those the you select were saviors of their countries and i think to mystically uses a great example undoubtedly. but they may argue with some of the choices.

so with the original strategic outcomes. how you respond? >> that criticism would be valid for all five because they are not winners but themistocles saved the greek colonists but was almost immediate be forgotten it was up to the spartans fennecs year at the height of his power but to put on trial and as you point out with ridgway he was only their 100 days of made a strategic choice not to go across the 38 parallel. he descended in a strange way and said the american people were with macarthur when everything was going well they raced up 400 miles said as soon as the chinese

crossed then that is the first time the word got currency then they turn to. now they are behind me if i go back up to the north with the same logistical situation of macarthur, the weather that was true, i don't know, they will turn on me because they are not willing to sustain this type of for this long. in retrospect looking at the threat of north korea today we could question ridgway's judgment but he fell at the time that nation was not in the political fray of mind for what would be needed to crush the north korean and chinese of the 30th parallel. the same is either through david petraeus save to the cause in iraq but left it to others to leave a residual force to make sure in was a consentual society the way we had dash and in its of

forties or fifties. we chose not to do that but that tarnishes his achievement. >> host: above to go back to your discussion average way to make a calculation that that was strategic of ridgway not just operational but one of the important components of the united states is democratic systems organize is to have control over the military and with the responsibility for civilian leaders. how do you eva evaluate ridgway decision making with something as it with popular support? also with the operational calculations. >> guest: he would say i

got this back to the 30th parallel the when i arrived people wanted to evacuate and soul was lost again and people had given up and public support was less than iraqi in 2006. but he got back north of the 30th parallel and waited for the civilian response and it was the collective decision of harry truman and the joint chiefs to not go beyond it. we should have the remember ridgway with the demotion or the relief it became theater commander but we had the war for two warriors in the stalemate and july eisenhower included said let's break the stalemate to go across the 308th but they didn't.

the leader as he reflected back cover it is not fair to me because i should have crossed to go to china when i saved it for you. then the next 24 months you decided to take my advice to die you criticize me for what you say i should have done this to make he made it clear that although real lights him personally he was that would have that the relationship between the civilian and military. >> host: i would like to hear more about that tension and support between the leaders of the state's that

you discuss and the commanders that you discuss. is full support from the leadership of a country necessary to have a savior general? >> is and it is controversial because they have come in at the 11th-hour whoever the political system has in charge there is a referendum something goes wrong if david petraeus takes charge they will say why did we have to go there in the first place? really in the game will lose sole and they say what are they doing? warda they have to take amanda when you just take richmond? of their there referenda on all failed policies because if they do very well. but people are almost a god.

but basically the story but the willingness or cold harbored deep passions even though lincoln is suspicious of him and he save the election, truman, ridgway was on time magazine's cover so no need to mention david petraeus because as soon as he comes back at iraq late 2008 people are suggesting he should get five stars and is a presidential candidate in the primaries he is still mentioned even though he has said he is not interested in highs higher ratings than any of their candidate so by definition their political general's to navigate between being independent

people will resent me and i increase my stature that people talk about me as a political term it is very hard to navigate that tension. >> host: talk about that with later roman empires. >> to have the senate but and nominal senate, there were records and assemblies they did make him quite and it was not a hereditary process he was the nephew of the prior emperor but that was it so the emperor was picked by aristocrats -- aristocrats' fact that of the case studies is the most authoritarian but his relationship with the allosaurs was very bizarre speech very controversial

high-powered women. the relationship, they were both latin native speakers and they both had women that were very powerful and as long as those things that dynamism was there that the allosaurs could get away with being fussy here those target of the vandals the man who was on his way up for the eighth time border but once the four men started to break down and theodora died, there was a tension and he suddenly became a threat to the emperor in was put into exile for 10 years, brought out to save the capital from rome attack but always a suspect because a

magnanimous political figure in the age that they were not. said he was higher lee popular against the constantinople street. >> is this naturally the case that the senior generals will always be more popular than the elected? >> absolutely. there was a key moment early 2008 with david petraeus the most popular man in the united states and certainly more than mayor sanchez and much more popular than george bush. but they are in these and untenable situation with the success is the unfavorable referendum because yet they have certain personality qualities and visions that make them suspect by their

peers like the 19th century western that we see whether high noon, ethan edwards magnificence 73 bring the people in and they are suspect figures. we want them to get rid of the cattlemen but it is better than everyone or that they take the badge so whether real like it or not it did not and very well with themistocles ends with suicide 20 years later and tell sorus ended up the popular tradition ended up as dave we were trying to defend what he did but was

not popular. for rescue ridgway was not made chairman of the joint chiefs and eisenhower he said. >> host: did not take thistles. was not ridgway but van fleet w. was not in the theater but he got involved with material controversy so finished the manuscript the petite blonde as she did have problems but these are controversial a and after the significant achievement is hard to sustain in the event. >> the signature achievement

is interesting and challenging. perhaps you could tell us more about how with is or what traits some of the exam plotters had thought. >> host: deadfall dash. >> guest: of all the ingredients the education, the one signature personality seems to me they were immune to public opinion in double sumps -- suspect so when they say to give up themistocles is distrustful the same way with bela sorus are when they tell sherman that lincoln will not win the election what kidder not mclellan will be president

are people tell ridgway it is time settled their own and get everybody out or when petraeus went to iraq even steady group said it was hopeless basically but they had the idea i don't trust what most people say so the strategist is not just save being that particular war that even would be in the kindest of space but he was in but after 1946 they said no more carriers cover no more

conventional weapons that will automatically induce a nuclear response the will be messy and dirty we better get a doctor and how to confront communism in places we don't want to. it was heresy at the time this they may wish german i will attack the plantations and the confederacy in the 3% that caused the war ended makes no moral sense to killed a 97 percent that don't own slaves in north virginia but i could humiliate the honor society. people will forget you but that was a radical doctrine in that was the seapower, imperialism from paid roller mistakes and i guess revolutionaries were beyond that and put the same

with ridgway not just but they're very serious manner that spoke in communicate but they did not trust here say if somebody said this is how it is when you get over there where when you come home, he did not trust that the major he double checked checked, and triple checked and quadruple checked. that is a very important. >> with the people given being okay but they regretted traveling in an end savior general's, is this not the genius?

are they not this same traits that are required or more experienced such as alexander the great purge julius caesar or napoleon. >> there are different types of general's of even napoleon or wellington. i am not suggesting they have a particular battle that they see a larger theater in a larger strategic situation and they have a political ambition. but to say have a of a particular group of skill sets it. >> guest: but most people have given up they simply respond to winners of their winning the for more and that clouds people's judgment and i will look at this and zero in to look at the situation empirically to use my speaking and writing

ability in leadership qualities to turn this around. very empirically they say if i am ridgway the chinese came 400 miles and were panicking we got into trouble so why? this is the time and ridgway says no. to close to the chinese border there in the same situation we were three months ago. so they are immune but they are not strategic thinkers if you ask where do you want to go after korea or hall hases korea save west berlin? with this vision would this be replicated afghanistan? may be. they have doctrines on the

philosophies bridal think of george patton tour something like that. >> host: interesting you should mention grant because what i really want to ask you is why sherman in not grant? >> after vicksburg everybody thought they would win july 1863 it was fabulous they defeated it robert e. lee at the height of his powers and the war drags on but they bring grant to the hotel and he says i will go to richmond and my most billion supporter has taken over the army he will go to the west with two prongs i will take richmond the war will be over maybe a month

and then the unexpected happens richmond is close to washington in the land is longer they have good transportation atlanta is in the wilderness of the georgia pine woods. grant kids near richmond cold harbor, a wilderness, petersburg in if you look at the army that leaves may be 1964 or september almost 80 percent is killed or wounded or missing so the reputation and mary todd lincoln calls him a murderer and you get the impression that is a much difficult task to he has done something that is not sustainable politically so now on the left they say that lincoln and should not be nominated all except the

new york's times all turned on him and general mclellan comes back on the scene and says i wanted into the my got closer we lost more people you said i was a butcher and sherman says to himself behalf to get to linda before this election without losing the army of the west i cannot suffer casualties so why ailed they criticize his outflanking people and except for wonder to, he takes on september september 2nd as a telegram and everything turns topsy-turvy he wanted to have them as the man of

the hour. . .

what. >> grant said that we have better organization and supply. and it was true. his message was the union has more manpower. and you have to target and crush them. after shiloh, grant took that direction and sherman took another direction. in this particular way he fought like granddad and headed towards alanna in a series of fundamental battle.

>> one question that we have is the willingness not to give up, as he said in the common or popular possession how is it that that kind of tenacity is cultivated we have a broad education and those who have such talent. >> it is hard to know if it is their genetic makeup. from the two occasions i went to iraq and afghanistan, we looked at what his average day was and

i said to myself at the time, that is not sustainable. the man is only sleeping for your four hours a night if that. and later he had a health issue and i thought no one has that tenacity. and if you look at what he had to do you get the first thing that comes across my mind, physically like some politicians. it's like they are impervious than they are in an excellent physical condition but they also have a sense that i paid might use. i think david petraeus should've been the supreme commander much earlier than he was.

i think that the same thing was true of sherman he was elevated very rapidly after shiloh and not given exactly a fair chance prior to that because of his own psychological problems. and they did this idea that i have one chance in only one chance and i am here in a way that doesn't quite make sense. for a brief moment, i don't think it is sustainable. they were the men of the hour. and then after that moment passes, they say that the diplomats or the other joint chiefs or the other staff deal with their victory in a way that is stupid or smart.

>> host: so as you take a look and you look at that change of fortunes for political leadership as well as military force what do these do to help their military force actually achieve their vision? to turn a todd they feel that the generals are separated from the field. >> guest: he says i want warm food and i want winter uniforms, i want regular mail, i want a

panel that is not willing to be up at the front and he restores the morale of the soldiers. if he was just useless in that sense, in a southerly he was a renegade kind of guy. so they were one with their soldiers and they cared about the daily needs. that is why people almost immediately called sherman uncle billy. that name was earned in georgia. the second thing was they had to remind people why they were there. these people asked for the war, i'm going to make or and

anonymous. i'm going to make this and etc. people thought that they were going to go down there and just destroy things. that's the first time we have not really one a war. the first major engagement that congress has not authorized. we have not seen that. they were confused that congress didn't say it was a war. so as soon as ridgeway got there, he said i'm here legally and the president of the united states has the ability internationally and i am here morley at some point for a constitutional system. whether we think it is silly or not. because if we stop it here, they

won't go to western europe. that really galvanizes people. we've added together, here is a man that you can see sharing the same risk. here's amanda tells us why and that cares about us enough to make sure that they can get people around and that is another thing i try to emphasize as well. i don't know really where it came from. i don't think we have ever seen a certain way that they would assemble around like colonel mcfarland and colonel mcmaster. ridgway also brought in a group of people who thought that we could win a conventional war and sherman had a wonderful staff, much better than grant staff. those are the leadership qualities that we kind of forget about. we kind of thing, well, these leadership qualities or some

type of new technology makes them obsolete. but i'm a little worried. you perhaps know more about than i do. but it seems like four of the dynamic journals that we have had our general allen, general mcchrystal, general petraeus, we are not right now using their talents for reasons other than the advocacy. either they didn't show discretion but we didn't maintain the use of their talents at a time when we really needed them. if there's a because i think there has to be room in the 21st century for eccentricity and contrarian is an.

>> host: only more about how that kind of independence of determination was cultivated in some of these men's careers, certainly i have had the privilege of working with general petraeus. i have seen him present a clear vision and a clear idea of what it is that he wants is a vision of how to do it. also a vision of independence. and that it is something that should be tolerated within a military force. >> guest: i think we all find that at some point we have a brick wall, whether true or not and it depends on how we react to that.

let me get back to the bureaucracy and all of these people, sherman had a complete memory of this and his wife saved him by writing letters and he was given a shot again during his recovery moment. even though he had been a world war ii hero. all of these people, at some point it was the crux where people did not like them. i don't know why david petraeus, why he was brought back to kansas. but i think he you made the argument that we need him there. but we needed him, there were people that were suspicious of him and yet they reacted in such different ways. he thought i'm going to be back in the united states, i will use

this time to assemble a group and formulate my thoughts because when i do go back, i never thought he wouldn't go back. i think when ridgway was sitting in after this glorious site, click bring this guy over here the we will have to fight in a non-nuclear fashion in a place like korea. he was ready when he got there. and he said no, i've never been to korea or japan. he had this idea that if i ever get a chance again, i have an idea about making infrastructure on the class society of horsemen and cavalier and i can humiliate that in a way that is very

interesting. so they have an idea and i don't know if it's narcissistic or arrogant, but only one window of opportunity. >> host: as we think about this and read about them, it is important to study why study this in the center? >> that's a very good question. we have a few different human natures. one is the increase of diet or drugs that can change the way of thinking. it's a very minor and we are what we were 2500 years ago.

there is such a thing as victory and defeat, such a thing as deterrence as an alliances hubley with greater education and sensitivities that we can change the nature of man. i think that these utopian attempt throughout history, we have created an italian fascist man, a national socialist man, but now he is immune from all of these things and it has to be redefined or outlawed. 200 something, maybe four or five military. but i do not think that there is any record of success. we study it because it keeps telling us that there's a small number of people that are no good. they will take things that are

not logical. you cannot explain that it's not in their interest to take that piece of land. to baldhead men fighting over it made no sense. you'd like to tell them that they are worthless, they are rocky, they are about as valuable. he didn't need it, but he didn't need it for matters of prestige and emotion. they are logical. they do not make sense at times. they only prevented by convincing someone not to do that because you're going to pay a high price. the generals that the bad and the methodologies of defeating and rehabilitating the enemy, history offers us a helpful

anecdote than the social science >> host: that tells us a little bit about this history. because it is in the nature of human beings. but why study generals rather than other people? >> i have written a lot about the average person and what it was like to fight with how culture determines the way people fight or not fight. but the fact of the matter is i understand that the mind of one person can get a lot of people killed and if you are alexander the great and you're outnumbered five to one, you have a force multiplier and you will win that way.

and if you have five to 10 times more, you'll be killed in a way because someone doesn't have the mindset of that. there are a lot of iraqis alive today because of david petraeus. whether it was his personality or his intellect, take him out of the equation. i don't think the there others who would be there. but if you take them out of the equation, you take them out. in these cases the planets line up and it's a perfect storm of situations. the one where man can get a lot of people killed or saved. >> host: leadership becomes important because of the nature. >> host: they make people think

that they can do things that they otherwise can't. so when we think back to the 19th century greek captains in the 20th century studies, we often can look at books like that and so how did you avoid doing that when writing this? >> well, honestly i admire them a great deal. sometimes i was ambiguous because i did say that they ended badly in a predictable fashion. if you were to collate all of the things that matthew ridgway wrote, you'd think that he would be on the wrong side of dwight eisenhower and he did. and if you look at uncle billy sherman and look at what he

said, usa wanted you have to do make this synonymous with ruin and all of these things are a little bit over the top. it trieste was a little different in his speech. if you look at his appointments prior to that, he got very astute appointments to emphasize education and the new type of armor artillery, although he is almost gifted. something to the effect that david petraeus was in the room and everyone knew that he was probably the best educated and smartest and he knew that he was. that created a lot of jealousy and envy i do believe. so i understand it takes a lot to think that if you just let me comment, we don't say that explicitly, but they are saying

that everyone always has screwed up, i will go there and give them a second chance. either he cleans up the mass or we are through. so but bella is this going to be a losing streak. but basically if you don't save us, it is down to defeat. >> so the generals are great and they have these trades and they can only appear in a dire situation. so what are your thoughts on how do you get to this in the first place? >> i think that syria is a good

example. should we preempt or vice versa. in a constitutional society, it is predicated on what 50% want whether it's midterm elections or the media polls, it's incumbent for a leader to tell people that if you sign on for the second war or if you want to go to korea, these are the realms of things that can happen. and whoever is going to win, we think it is a moral cause and whoever wins will have ups and downs and i won't be as easy as you think. these awards will include things happening that we did not anticipate. if you prepare them and tell them that we don't have to be perfect morally to be good and that the victory will go to people with the greatest morale in the greatest conviction and cause, i think it's very

essential. what happens is we are going to go in there and do this and in three weeks the taliban is gone. we need them to come in and say this is the beginning and not the end. because if you look at what lincoln said or what fdr said, they were always trying to prep the public thinking that these people will turn on us at any moment. so i will prepare myself and not to get too exuberant, he said he was a genius at leadership because he knew how to calm them down and they got very reckless

and despairing and he was able to say it is not over until it is over. >> host: when you wrestle with that kind of situation and crisis, you focus a lot on public opinion as being a center of gravity. that is is a success with the will? >> it is. not only in central societies. if we have this conversation in june of 1940 in germany, we could not find a german but did not approve of this in poland. if we had this conversation in 1945 in march, we could not find one that was over four hillier. he was even more devious.

but the reason was the sense of success was not good. he was a goat in july of 1864 and lincoln did not change. but what happens is we keep thinking that people are ideological or political or they have deep-seated opinions that are basically based on convictions. as i get old, that is about 20% of the people. most people want to identify and distance themselves. victory has all of these parents and i think people have to understand that. some of the things i appreciated , because he was the only one that actually be appreciated. although they understood the situation, he never got in the situation that i protect bush

from this and i shouldn't have to be called to have a suspension of disbelief. i shouldn't have to put up with general petraeus. his attitude was that these things happen because the battlefield is not doing well. when the battlefield is not doing well, people will jump in and try to distance themselves. otherwise they are going to say that maybe iraq was worth it after all, they won't have any more of that. and there weren't. but they ought to be mature enough. they probably do privately, but they don't do otherwise. people thought that he was a brilliant diplomat and you couldn't pigeonhole them even though they had been appointed. the same thing with sherman and

lincoln and they just said, most people will not do what i want to do and most people would not take this job. and most people would not give a whit about korea. it wants to feel good about winning and they do not feel good about losing and seeing our soldiers humiliated. that is my job to ensure that we win and we don't lose. they didn't have a lot of confidence in that sense the. >> host: critique these generals. you have given us a lot of these extraordinary human beings. and that includes how they became part of the circumstances that they were in and the reasons of character and history that help them to pull through. not only were they not perfect human beings, but because they were not necessarily perfect

generals. so how would you critique them in a military sense of the extraordinary individuals? >> there were certain things that they were not good at and one of them was conducting an infantry battle he was very weak as far as alliances are working with other city states goes. he offended them and they were able to defer to him. that was not a sustainable mentality. he was the antithesis of dwight eisenhower. that is why he disappeared and he did not figure it at all. they can some sense there was

dissension about the emperor. he was of the position that we want to take over. now we can do all of these good thing politically and domestically. and he referred to being loyal to his emperor. but he deferred to it may put himself into a vulnerable position. we didn't realize that it causes jealousy. so he was naïve in a political sense and got him exiled. it's almost that he didn't quite understand the role of the media. he said things in a way that betray us never would have said something outrageous like that. because it would only create problems politically. matthew ridgway was a very

strange guy and he understood how the pentagon worked but he didn't quite understand that they were his superiors there for a reason's. the he was a sober and judicious thinker and so was dwight eisenhower. when there were certain areas stopping the 58th parallel and the military, the question of how do you fight this war, he thought that he could appeal to reason or the merit of argument rather than their political instincts or their desirability. he didn't care about being liked. he really didn't care whether he

had a career afterwards and he suffered for and waited maybe would have been valuable for five years in the military. and he was alienated from american discourse on critical of issues because of that. i think david petraeus thought that he could navigate through this and possible political situation and he was going to be such an upright honest guy that everyone would honor him. he did that and i think that explains why he took an unenviable task in afghanistan and he was willing to trade positions with general mathis. if you look at this, you can see that there were larger sources that work like politics, some people thought that this political residence may not have

been appreciated or in a way that was handled that he wanted to appreciate. but i'm not so sure. they are not quite sure just how they all interact. that's one reason that i don't think that they have this. >> i think the concept is extraordinarily interesting. the book is quite readable. it betrays phenomenal characters. it forces us to think about history can you tell us what his next? >> i am interested in the thousands of orders since the beginning of civilization.

but what gives the romans to say that that is not enough. why do they say that is it. they are frightening concepts. i'm looking at the cases that talk about the existential destruction with all of these residents and we are looking at nuclear iran. we are looking at the exit central and of all things. >> host: thank you for your contribution. >> guest: thank you for having me today. >> booktv's book club returns next month with this town, to parties and a funeral plus plenty of parking. read the book and engage on her facebook page and look for daily book club hosts to get the

conversation going, including links to interviews of the author and reviews of the author from the booktv archives. >> during chuck hagel's news conference on monday with his chinese counterpart commenters asked about the situation in egypt. you can see the entire event online at c-span.org. here is some of what he said. >> i know about the hosni mubarak report. i can't help it. saudi arabia, as you know. they announced a couple of weeks ago that they committed to assistance to egypt and this includes the specifics of your

question regarding saudi arabia. i don't know about this. the question regarding cancellation of apache helicopters or other parts as i said to bob as we were reviewing all aspects of our relationship. >> that could change to bring an end to the bloodshed in egypt and why not. to answer the cause from capitol hill. if they are not cooperating or don't appear to be cooperating. >> there is not consistent offer as you know. but more to the point, we have serious interests in egypt and that part of the world. this is a very complicated

process that we continue to try to help as much as we can. to facilitate this stock of violence. our ability is up to the egyptian people. they are a large and great sovereign nation that would be their responsibility to sort this out. all nations are limited on these internal issues. but that has to be a collaborative effort focused on what the egyptian people want. supporting the egyptian people. we believe as secretary kerry

said, we believe that that should come as inclusive and open democratic process to have a role in the future of this country. >> the cato institute is hosting the cause of social security disability insurance. coverage is live at noon eastern on c-span. but programs on military history continue with john geoghegan on his book "operation storm: japan's top secret submarines and its plan to change the course of world war ii." this is 45 minutes. >> hello, i would like to start this evenings presentations with some questions. does anyone in the audience know tonight who this is?

that is admiral yamamoto. the commander in chief of the imperial japanese navy combined fleet. he was a fascinating guy for those of you who do not know him. he lived in the united states twice during his naval career and he spoke good english. he attended harvard university briefly. >> please move your microphone slightly. >> is that that better? >> just a little but more and. >> okay. >> okay how is that? >> okay. so as i said, he attended harvard very briefly. he read life magazine and he had a good understanding of america.

he knew what japan was getting into and as he told the individual at the time, he said that we could guarantee a tough fight for the first six months but i have no confidence after that. it is important to know that he is a gambler. he played billiards and roulette and dejong and it almost did not matter what the game was as long as it had a gambling component. he often threatened to resign to become a full-time professional gambler. that is how good he was. although i'm sure they didn't take his threats seriously, it is important to understand that his love of gambling affected his military strategy and influenced his thinking.

that is why he has a mixed record. he was a fascinating character, nonetheless. when he was young and serving aboard japan's naval flagship during the japanese and russian war, the deck bluff and he was severely injured by an explosion. if you look at this photograph here, you can see the stars peppering his face from the shrapnel. he was pretty self conscious, which is one reason they were often airbrushed out of his official photographs and he also lost two fingers in the explosion. his index finger and his middle finger. the price of a manic -- manicury

acacia was very expensive. he only had eight fingers and so he was not made to pay a full price for a manager. you don't usually associate humor with the commander in chief of the japanese navy. at his most famous feed is being the architect of japan's pearl harbor attack. it was hugely integrated foreign state, which many do not realize for a dominant strategy was the philosophy of the naval battle that you were supposed to go out and find your enemy far out at sea and destroy them. he turned that with the attack on the pacific fleet and it was the first time that so many had ever been launched from the sea

to attack the navy fleet in its own homeport. it shows that he could be a daring and unconventional thinker. but he had a problem after pearl harbor. that is why in january of 1942, he gathered to discuss what could the navy do as a follow-up to pearl harbor. so he needed to do something equally as bold as pearl harbor but somehow convince the united states to allow japan to keep the recently conquered territories. the follow-up approach was characteristically audacious. as i said, he was a daring and unconventional thinker and he knew he would never let this pass the americans.

so he decided to bill 18 gigantic submarines specifically designed to attack the united states. now, i am not talking about another attack against the hawaiian islands or qualm. i'm talking about an attack against mainland america and that is something that had not occurred since the british bombarded them in the war of 1812. this is an illustration of one, they were pretty remarkable as an achievement. they are far bigger than any summer and it had been built up until then and in fact, they were so vague that we initially mistook them for her surface ships. to give you an idea of how big they were, that is the one there at the top. that is the squadron flagship and it was over 400 feet long. that was longer than a football

field. it was three stories tall. they carried many officers and crew and they carried less than 80 men. as you can see the submarine is comparable to a destroyer and that is a surface ship intended to hunt submarines. it is not exactly clear who was behind who. it was so huge that they could travel around the world and it could come close to getting it. they also incorporated some of

the newest stealth technologies. they painted this so it invented it 3 feet at the base back into the sea. it was painted with a special coating. but the amazing thing was that they had underwater aircraft carriers. many had a watertight deck hanger that they could keep off of their bow. and they could launch these e401 . germany, great britain, the united states, france, italy.

they all experimented with mixed results and japan was the only nation to perfect this and deploy them readily in their navy. there were 11 submarines surrounding a walk-through on december 7, 1941. in the japanese navy had three times that. so this was a strategic technology that they very much believed in. and this is the only known photograph of one of the subs. ..

>> the incredible thing about the e-400 subs was not their size or underwater aircraft carriers betti auditioned bond dash audacious mission that was dreamed up in the course of world war ii was intended to said the subs to send them

halfway around the world the surface and launched the of planes and a surprise aerial attack against the eric city and washington d.c.. clear the yamamodo was thinking big the you would expect of an unconventional thinkers redo the 44 aircraft they intended the aircraft's of stew carry would not be big enough to destroy the biggest cities be he did believe the psychological blow would be enough to force the u.s. to the ed negotiation table to sue for the year in the peace. do little we fielded 60 bombers over tokyo but yamamodo was talking of 44. one of the remarkable things of the e-400 subs they

marked the first time a submarine had been designed to launch of the offensive attack against an enemy city. up until a 1945 it was used force county were to sink merchant ships. nobody dreamed a submarine could be used to attack a city. that is one reason why these are so revolutionary also why they are still relevant today. a aside for being an amazing story, that tea to subs are the historical predecessors of the u.s. missile carrying subs from the 1950's which is shown here. they surfaced, launched a nuclear missile not evade watertight decane your and in other words, our regular missile carrying subs are descendants of the e-400. also 99 said t2 foreshadowed

today's ballistic missile carrying submarines. the boomers. the boomers mission is to destroy the land base targets including cities the save the mission as the e-400. so the story of the e-400 is not only incredible of overcoming insurmountable obstacles to launch a hair raising hail mary mission but the strategically to -- legacy is still live with us today. this is one of the planes the e-400 launched off about it is the attack plane and one of the most technologically sophisticated aircraft ever built during world war ii and they were nicknamed that is translated as storm from a clear sky because that is exactly how they intended to

appear over new york city and washington d.c. pro the planes were versus title but one of the most versus tyler qualities was there we angus and tail stabilizers could fold up to make a small enough package to fit on a decade your 11 feet 6 inches. if a man was standing next to this plane his head would just about reached the top of the bottom pontoon so these are larger kraft. -- large aircraft but the most shocking if they were painted to look like u.s. military aircraft to make it easier to slip past air defenses. the japanese believed they could buy a themselves

enough time to reach the target before there were discovered. so all in all but not to dream up in the course over a war. >> they all sat on trolleys they were lowered so they could back in the bin there would be reset. but the squadron commander he was descended from a samurai and attended navels

academy just like our annapolis and also attended the war college. with the staff officer or line officer he was a patriot, and subscribe to to the code in a hard core militarists as they came and as a result and a piece of work. bet as the worst atrocities from the saboorian steering the war. but he headlamp street here with a tidy little mustache and skin them more than one person described as being lee lee and he hadn't really sheen i came across that several times. said he is definitely the billion -- dylan and a heavy

drinker. he did not slap them or kick them but the crew of the flagship called him gangster because of the of ruthlessness to and they used the term king stuff -- gngsta. of the crew knew of e-401 the he would not hesitate to sacrifice them. so surrender was not in the vocabulary. said he was the boss from hell. here is the lieutenant commander but who was aboard

the flagship. now he was so handsome he looks like a japanese movie star. as you will see he has quite a full list dash that was considered stylish in the day. this occur trusted him and knew that he had their best interests at heart rather as air is in the wooded command respect to fear a and intimidation. but he is about 101 but 70

years after the fact mitt crew sought me out to tell me say zero of their lives so way he conducted himself at the end of the war. [laughter] the of their amazing things come he was one of the few sub captives to survive. that is remarkable considering he told me how he looked through his periscope way being to escape the real attacks and also the executive officer that was the submarine that had the storage facility just north of santa barbara purpose of this guy got around in was in the war 8000 days. that is a long time. it is american -- america he

survived given the casualty rate also they he served under commander arazumi. we may not know is the e-400 subs were on their way to complete the mission with the war ended. of the he excepted their surrender terms commander arazumi was so outraged he refused to tell the crew of the surrender. in fact, commander arazumi refused to surrender and instead he decided to go broke in to continue with the mission. this was the unprecedented situation in nothing had prepared commander arazumi for a defeat or surrender but the situation of the e-401 was about to get very, very bad. because the u.s. combat sub

was breathing down their neck and she was having her own and command and control problems but the encounter between the e-401 was from the book operation storm and if there is time left devil take questions. -- i will take questions. still with me? chapter number one. face-off. i promise not to read the whole chapter. uss five days out of midway had been to japan when her crew receive news the japanese had accepted peace terms. as a submarine executive officer as noted in the

reports heard the good news or heard the good word of the surrender and in "operation storm" languages. one of the newest fleet boats and was responsible for insuring the captain's orders were carried out in a correct and timely manner. he had been with of the teton and put before commissioning and a 28 years old already balding a man of sly wit and a few words. his all cap entry was the uncharacteristic display of emotion for the officer but then again the war was finally over. the e-401 was patrolling the islands when the cease-fire was announced it had not see much activity except russian

vessels it now 1945 and segundo was ordered to tokyo bay to represent u.s. force at the surrender ceremony it was an honor for the crew but there were not ready to relax just yet they were still in enemy territory and although the cease-fire agreement specified the military were to lay down arms some units had back got the message in two weeks since the emperor ast the subjects to endure the unendurable and we had revenants of the once formidable japanese fleet. not much was left of that imperial navy there was isolated resistance so the e-401 continued on a wartime footing. it had been an aggressive despite the diminishing number of enemy targets interfirst skipper had been

designed wall it was still under construction at the portsmouth navy yard in new hampshire. to put the indelible stamp on the crew while commanding during that time he had sunk to japanese warships the man seven merchants and earned the title of for battle stars. these results were not surprising given the fact that tall, athletic and handsome he repeated the confidence this man had come to respect. he was 34 which was sold for a sub captain and quiet by nature. the devil lee contributed to his presence. he prosecuted with just the right balance of aggressiveness and caution and his crew knew he was somebody they could count on to get them home safely.

although he could be remote that was unusual to was better to be distant than overly familiar since the cruz lives developed of objectivity and in other words, the first skipper had everything a crew like tea was mature, a steady and reliable. all this had changed before the segundo departed on the fifth and final patrol undergoing refit would proceed to orders transferred him to for a harbor he had eight more patrols under his bill is due for rotation but he had built it into a formidable fighting machine and if it is true that a combat submarine operates like a family and then his departure was like to try being the crew. unfortunately the boats new skipper john said was a

different breed of captain. he was younger and brash with the cockiness to put the crew on the edge but the first time richard fox saw him to the new skipper would shooting dice and distinctly he did not make a good impression he acted more like a crew member than an officer not will he was used to serving under and also who had concerns to over here him tell his officers make office patrol they will throw battles down our hatch was this the guy you could respect? e was not sure it did fact the more the crew sought of jobs in the more they worried he was a hollywood is skipper baby yet other capabilities but noticeably

lacking. it almost seemed as if the segundo was the 29 year-old first command but his third bid of his officers had known that it would free them all the more. the lieutenant remained as the executive officer and recognize the new captain was stiffer and was a smooth talker and highly polished and well dressed even the nickname was slick. but he's he has seen his share but most adjusted to a do skipper's foibles or otherwise it was when hunter% fall and tear. the biggest issue captain johnson faced was the tight knit crew. most of the men had been on board since the commission in 15 months earlier and had been shaped by the command

style and he had got the madison tight spots with a new skipper with tb as talented? >> of course, it was less of an issue. the one thing we did not want to see was to have something happen in. have been a cease-fire was in place we didn't want to. it was 15 minutes before midnight august 28, 1945, when lt. johnson no relation to capt. johnson believed to the lieutenant and his officer of the deck. the segundo was on the surface about 100 number miles in the 14th day of

the cease-fire not one warship had been slated. it was a cold night and visibility was corbett the ocean was called and lt. johnson decided to take advantage of whatever little moonlight there was but when he first spotted the object he thought his eyes for playing tricks on him but to the more certain he became that something was out there. meanwhile, a beach was surprised how large the object was something that size should have been picked up by 15,000 yards but bit -- did not appear until one-third of the distance he shouted radar contact 5500 yards.

nobody was sure what they were dealing with and no ships were reported and it was unlikely to be an enemy vessel this far north. no mistaking the of looked at doing 15 knots. if it was american, a fine but if it is japanese they had a problem. captain johnson flew into the tower demanding the range and bearing in determined to take a closer look he of called for the tracking stations. when the segundo closed within 3 yards it was the shape of the gigantic supper rain and was so big easily dwarf to the segundo since the allies had nothing remotely close in size it had to be japanese. before johnson could declare battle stations sparks began to fire out the exhaust and clearly they had been spotted the japanese sub when into the night at flank

speed and morgan was in the control room as the chase in suits and he knew the fighting was still going on but could not understand why it would run away and after all the war was over 14 days but nevertheless the situation seemed dangerous. as an extended into the early-morning hours, every time he tried to pull that japanese to of a bomb dash sub he settled off the stern and also made sure the torpedo tubes for loaded a and ready if they tried anything funny they would this think her. first then in another is the pursuit begin worrying but something unusual happened. johnson was not sure where

he was up to but it suddenly began slowly and maybe she was ready to surrender or get into a firing position. surely after 4:00 in the morning of august 29, johnson called quartermaster third class carlos to the bridge. it was his first war patrol a kid from the bronx like the accent was a punch in the face and was sleeping with the segundo the wide awake now as he hoisted the signal lamp to the average as he put up the international could to stop. but he showed no signs of stopping the finally after a few minutes he it received the difference in their reply within two minutes later this of lay dead in

the water. as don eliminated the japanese boat johnson and his men were in for a big surprise. favor not facing a typical submarine but it was in fact, the largest submarine the crew had ever seen. carlos it was convinced she was third times as large but also the issue is four times bigger. whatever the actual size size, the japanese of the loom to over the vote in johnson knew they stumbled across something unusual he did not realize he faced the largest submarine in the world so huge she would remain the largest and tell the u.s.s. trenton was commissioned in 1959. johnson's man had every reason to feel small not just the size, she also

bristled with weaponry but the 5.5-inch gun and three triple beryl in this single time that there were also eight tornado tombs to more than the e-401 and reasonable to assume she had the deadliest torpedos of the war that packs more punch in had three times the range and were faster. if captain johnson felt alarmed at the contradictory behavior coming he did not show it you cannot underestimate the ferocity of the military even in defeat ted johnson is judges the situation even slightly from the the segundo is in trouble. to ensure that come impede

brought his water torpedo tubes and ordered them to close the distance. by all rights it should surrender better her reluctance to stop especially after being chased showed they would not give up easily. after all, vichy still had the red and white rays of the rising sun. of thing for sure, nobody in the united states navy had ever seen this i'd like this but with it now confronted with the segundo -- e-401 and designed for emissions a secretive the u.s. military didn't know anything about it but yamamodo had planned a himself in the mission so

audacious the imperial japanese navy saw it as a way to change the course of the war in their favor. but what captain johnson did not appreciate is how reluctant it was to use surrendered not only part of the top secret -- secret squadron but also carry the commander. the commander had been involved with the development almost from the beginning. giving their pedigree it would not surrender without a fight. in fact,, this rendering to the enemy would be more than unacceptable and the embarrassment and a disgrace and went against all his years of training in against the commander of the imperial japanese navy.

much you're about to the end of world war ii is not over just yet because of the unproven skipper the crew found themselves in the middle of a promise to be the last great shooting match of the pacific war. >> okay. [applause] you are too kind. but i want to make knowledge before questions that one of the teeth than plague owner some of the service of all patrols it had five war patrols and one of the family members who was alive in fact, there were five

generations of want to say today's for coming out and your father support with a research of my book. we ask that you come up to the microphone otherwise you will not get on. >> any questions pick up the microphone. >> don't be shy. i don't have a question by the comment. i read the first part of the book again it is just a great book i cannot wait to get through the entire thing that could you share with the audience about it is fascinating for those of the pacific coast, you were very

eaton that period and detailed chronology of people responded to the various limited the highly effective attacks but the reaction this seems will lead them to believe that e-400 might have had the psychological impact will would have resulted in what he anticipated and hoped for so way feat that evidence you plates in the first half went to validate the theory of yamamodo. >> few people realize the west coast was lousy with the japanese submarines between 41 through

september 42. they were sinking coastal shipping, and they did launch the first attack on the mainland united states since the war of 1812 the and it was the time there was a tremendous invasion of people did not understand what they were dealing with but in russia that got ridiculous but that part of a dot but there is a number of merchant ships sunk off the coast of california from vancouver down through san diego. and to the one i interviewed for the book describes what it was like 1942 to surface of the waters to be so close you could hear people talking onshore.

i remember initially when i interviewed him just to understand when the interview was over he told me about a trip he made to new york city and i said that's interesting was that your first visit? he said know i have been before. i said what was the first time? he said pearl harbor. [laughter] >> i have not read the book but did you include the bombing that occurred with the plane that took off from a submarine. >> right. yes i have a chapter in the

book about that he bombed northern california and made two flights. this is another one of those things that the minister to do the research i ask the question why would the japanese want to bomb the redwood forest? it sounds crazy but all the western accounts to isthmus at but when i interviewed the japanese and listened to their logic it was clever because they knew in september the forest in oregon is tinder dry. they expected the weather to be a force multiplier for these incendiary bombs they a dissipated to set on fire a good port -- a good part of northern california and oregon but luckily for us it was up the most unseasonably really september and 100

years so they went off but did not have the effect the japanese intended so we said that was a crazy plan but the truth is we got tremendously lucky. >> there was a show one or two years ago the first ever heard of the subs but i think they mentioned yamamodo was a proponent and after he was killed early in the war 1943, the development of the subs release load. when they were finally developed it was so late in the war they did have a chance to do much. >> right. you are talking about the documentary japanese super sub and i was the producer and technical writer on that show based on an article i

had written. when yamamodo was killed killed, first of all, as far as pearl harbor the imperial japanese navy thought it was the craziest thing they had ever see in the abuse and happened was yamamodo was the commander in chief since it you don't except to this plan i will resign so he forced them when it succeeded, he was a god and could do whatever you wanted so he came up with 18 gigantic underwater aircraft carriers nobody would stand in his way at that point but there was staff that did not want this plan favor very conservative and thought this was a bridge too far.

once he died they can matt of the woodwork. 1.they scaled back and then they got back so there was a tough go for but they stayed with the plan through the war even though there were so many men involved it was like a japanese battalion. to raise 3,000 people were involved. index great cost so but to get your correction if not mistaken too little and yamamodo had something in common besides the date, i guess april 18, 1942 and

yamamodo was shot down on the same day. correct? >> yes. >> thank you. >> visit is perhaps transcendental was the movie the emperor. i wonder from your perspective based on what you know, of these personalities. >> i am not completely a understand the question. >> the move the emperor with the portrayal of the main personalities. >> i have not seen that movie. >> it is recently released in the last month or two. >> guest: now that is on my list to see. it is funny.

the way american history was taught to me that the japanese were very one dimensional and monolithic and fanatical. i got a different perspective when i had a chance to interview the officers. one of the guys interviewed was a squadron leader i thought he would be ready to get in his plane but the rest were quite logical and rational. it was the plan to view that i never an a million years encountered not sure what the reasoning wars and why did they do what they did? then we find out these instances like bombing it be worn again in the made more sense but if you read the book you'll find part of it is the experience the of the part is what the war was like from their point of

view. i think we should stop it is getting late. thank you for coming and i will be over here citing books. thank you. [applause]

>> i affirm the importance to maintain open channels of communication and we agree it is important to continue high-level visits such as you are aware general dempsey visit to china earlier this year. speaking is the key japanese -- speaking in speaking chinese.

>> general luthier know and welch and pla navy commander today general dempsey and offered to host his counterpart for a visit to the united states. [speaking chinese] >> in their meeting this morning the general invited me to china next year and i enthusiastically accepted. accord to seeing you again

at the next week's meeting as part of might trip to southeast asia. >> [speaking chinese] >> farrell also visit malaysia in tunisia and the philippines on this trip.

>> good afternoon. welcome to the heritage foundation and to the editorial we will cokeheads those who come to the heritage web site as we prepare to begin please make yourself loans have been turned off it is a courtesy the speakers appreciate. we will close the program within 24 hours for your reference as well.

joining us today is the director for foreign policy studies served as senior research fellow for defense of homeland security and is educated in civil authorities and he served three decades as the army's special forces officer july 2001 and assume the duties of military assistant to secretary rumsfeld and work daily with the secretary over the next five and a half years and then upon retirement continued the pentagon insisted deputy secretary of vince please join me to welcome steve. [applause] >> let me add my welcome to all of you. i think you'll have to treat

this morning. as john mentioned i of the special forces officer by profession and this area is near and dear to my heart. this is what we did. they don't let me do it anymore. [laughter] i mentioned to max a historical artifact that when i was a cadet at west point i bought a book just published a two volume set called the war in the shadows a guerrilla in history. that book from 1975 until now has been the benchmark for this type of historical review of the subject area and that is a long time to keep that position. and with the apologies to credit he is being replaced

and max has done that and this book invisible armies i think he has set a new benchmark and it is very comprehensive it is somewhere regional but not entirely. . .