beautiful stap glassed post that was crushed in the post and arrived as a mosaic of london. since then, i never won any other prize. it was front loaded in the beginning of the career. >> host: what's "red plenty" about that came out in 2012ing? >> "red plenty," how can i describe it to make it sound as unappetizing as possible? >> host: a soviet science fiction book? >> guest: it is. it's far worse than that. it's about soviet economics, the dismal science in the most dismal country on the planet, and part of me was, i agree, being perverse. i wanted to take the most boring subject anyone could possibly imagine, wrestle it to the ground, and force it to give up its hidden jewel of interesting message. i also had a real question to

ask about how we got to where we were in after the wall fell. i was born in 1964, old enough to remember what the world was like before that, when the soviet union was not only grim and desperate, but scary and looked kind of modern as well. that's very hard -- i know, it's hard to get back into, but if you look at the year 1960-61, you have the kennedy white house saying we have to close the computer gap with the russians, use cybernetics as intelligently as they do in the soviet union. most was smoke and mirrors, but not all. russians had an amazing growth rate through the 1950s. people were scared of the soviet union then the way we get a little bit scared of india or china now. they looked at the figures and they they were going to overtake us. i made the point to a wonderful column pointing this out, and

there's a moment here, a forgotten moment of alarm and anxiety when they look like the winners. let's try to get back in the heads of people who thought that way then because history just doesn't go on by us answering questions, but by us going -- by asking complete news of the questions and forgetting past ones meaning the past is more mysterious than it looks, to get inside the mind set, even in the path of 40 # years ago is often to enter another world. it is science fiction, but i'm landing on the planet ussr in 1960 and behaving as if that is a set of aliens who need the tools of science fiction to explain them. >> host: previous guest on the series was robert mccrumb of the observer saying writers in britain can't be just writers,

they have to be writers and something else. do you have a day job? >> guest: i do. i'm a writer and a teacher of writing. i teach e equivalent of a course, but halftime, tuesday and wednesdays, every week at goldsmith college. it's a good place to go. >> host: what is that? >> guest: part of the university ever london founded long ago by gold smiths that we have not done any of the beating out of the pressure metal on the anvil for quite some time. we're good on art, good on writing, good on web design, and i do that, half the time, the other half of the time i'm at home or a cafe, i'm writing. i am bad at working at home, i like the gentle background hum of other folks getting on with their lives and business, and

then i can concentrate. >> host: "unapologetic" coming out on paperback in the u.s. later this year. why despite everything christianity makes surprisingly emotional sense. will you tour the u.s. with this book? >> guest: depends if one week counts. i'll be over. i'll be doing one. i hope to get to quite a few places, but it'll have to be very packed in, so -- >> host: do you know where you will be at? >> guest: no, except so far new york, boston, texas looks likely. displs we've been talking with francis spufford here in london, author of "unapologetic," "red plenty," and several other books. thank you for spending a little time with us here on booktv. >> guest: you're very welcome.

>> this is introduction of my own story, this wonderful frnd of my, anita rachavan, and i met

her back in 1995. i came to new york, and i was looking for stories to do, and i decided to do a story on indian journalist who were rising in the main steam business press, and at that time when i interviewed the people who reached the top position, someone said, hey, you know, this reporter you must meet at the "wall street journal," anita rachavan, and he described her as the bright kid going places. at that time, she was reporting on the securities industries, securities industry, and, well, she did go places because i met her again in, you know, just a couple years ago when she was appointed as the london bureau chief, and now with this book, i assure you that anita will go further still.

>> i was fascinating by a street fighter that managed to seduce the best and brightest of the indian american community. there was the three time chairman, and the property jay, and we had gone to the finest schools in india, the dune school, and i wanted to know what is it that he had that managed to cast a spell over so many of india's finest. >> don't you think that, you know, in a sense, it was not the

brightest moment for the community to be telling that story now? >> it wasn't, but i think through the story, you were able to tell the tale of the rise of the community because all the individuals that are involved in this case came, you know, post-1965 after the u.s. immigration laws were relaxed and did fantastically well in a relatively short period of time so you had the whole trajectory of the community. you know, its highs and its lows. >> you know, the other thing i wanted to ask you, been meaning to ask you the title, i've been loving the title. how did you hone in at that particular title? >> well, if i start by saying we had many titles before this title, the first title, which is my favorite is sons of the morning, and it came from a hymn that i loved when i was in

boarding school capturing the idea of the indian, and the best and the bright education of india, and i guess not everybody knew the hymn from boarding school, and that was quickly cast aside, and then we toyed with two kings because raj, in a way, was the king of wealth, and, you know, they were a different king, a king of thought. he was a strategist from mckenzie, a certain ability about him, and i don't want to give away trade secrets, but there was another book with two kings as the title, so that quickly had to be cast aside,

and, finally, we wanted to focus on what was the book about? , and i think we came to the idea of my billionaire's apprentice because, you know, at some point, in his career, wanted to have what roger had, and it was -- it was the billions. >> well, i thought maybe you could read a limit from your book, and, you know, set the stage for further discussion. >> okay. the passive i'll read from is from the beginning of the book, and it's roger at the start of the life, and it tells you about

roger, about his father, who was a prominent freedom fighter who spent many, many years in jail. a cousin of his told me when i was interviewing in 20 # -- 2011 said jail was like a house to him. i'm going to start with that. ever since he was born, he was likened to his father. he was as handsome as his father with the same striking leeches and jaw line that gave both a distinguished air, a sense they belonged to to a secret world of privilege beyond wealth, intellect, or bloodline. in a society with skin color as a defining force, both roger and his father were fair skinned offering them a natural superiority, known for generosity of spirit in the way that over the course of them lives won them steadfast friends

and loyal followers, but beneath the surface, the similarities ended. unlike his son, he came of age in an occupied country, seemingly faded by his birth in 19080 to live in deference no an imperial power. he was also ironically one of the chosen ones. he would be tapped and trained to deny and perform like a faux englishman in the service of her majesty, the king. he got a proper education like the other members of the family, he rejected intellectual servitude. on the morning of thursday, november 5, 1964, his eldest son, 15-year-old roger, dressed himself carefully. growing up 234 a close-knit indian family of four children,

two girls, two boys, the youngest moving after the 1950s, roger was accustomed to shouldering responsibility. they were always looking after the younger siblings by economic necessity, a two career couple. his mother taught at the local school, and pop release from prison, he took up journalism as a mean to support himself and family. his old revolutionary ties to the leaders of a newly freed india helped him rise. after india's independence, he was dispatched to start the edition of the hindu standard, a frequent visitor, to the official residence of the president of india and known among the press core, the prime minister called him by his first name. so trusted was he by government ministers they would seek his council on how to deal with the press. born as a british subject, he,

through hard work and sacrifice, was an insider in modern india. he walked into the antiroom of his oping -- uncle's home to say fear well. shrouded with roses, marigolds, and jasmine, his father lay in a cough fin. as was customary, the body washed in purr mid water and dressed in a loose fitting shirt. arriving at the hospital the previous day, he was told his father was dead, but as he stood at the entrance to the room, there was a plastic bag attached bubbling with air from his father's last gasps. for a moment he thought the doctors made a dismake, but the years of struggle in incarceration took their toll. at 56, he was dead of kidney failure. in the months leading up to the father's death, he spent a lot of time with his father accompanying him on long walks

and listening to stories of his time in the freedom movement. he landed his father was intentionally exposed to tb in prison, ultimately costing him the use of one lung. the ragged two foot long scar on the back was from the skin split open over and over again in a brutal interrogation. in spite of it all, the father he knew was kind and o bligeing to everyone. he would later recall he never spoke ill of anybody, and i would have thought he would have had a lot of resentment bilt into him, but it was not true. this attitude was true of most of my father's generation. they were quite extraordinary in terms of simple living and high thinking and not thinking ill of other people. this morning in front of the uncle's house, a crowd gathered, and neighbors and friends descended. door to door launderers, their

donkeys watched as the coffin was placed into a glass top hearse parked in front of the red brick house with the green shutters. in tribute, they nudged the donkeys away and cleared apart for the procession. at 9 a.m., the hearse closely followed by cars carrying the immediate family departed. as it long approached the top of the street, there was a small shrine to sliver the god of destruction. after a stop at the officings of the father's employers, the newspaper group, he led the crowd to white town. on the other side of town, a matra, the former jailer, raced to catch one time glams of -- glimpse of the man. clenching the fist full of flowers, he elbowed through a crowd of hundreds of friends,

family, and admiring strangers and got beyond the row of bodies stacked in a line to be cremated. at last, the former prison guard made it to the coffin. his teenage son was just completing the final, and in the silence that followed, he placed what was left of the flowers on the feet of the fallen friend. he then helped roll the stretcher holding the father's body into the orange flames of the crematorium. overcome with grief, they muttered a friend, and praying on a grain is in the ashes, and i try to atone for my sin. if he was not unwashed in the sadness at the premature death of the unsung heros, there could have been the voice of him quietly besieging a higher power. who will show me the way in the world?

>> this is an incredible amount of rich detail making hair stand on end. how difficult was it reporting the book? the backdrop was this insider trading scandal, and so, you know, you've been a very dogged reporter, but writing a book on this scale and depth, what was the experience like? >> it was difficult because because they helped on many, many stories before were quite reluctant to speak about because in a way it casts a poor light, you know, on the community and

why it was a shadow on the community. it reflected the vibrancy of the community in the united states today. the fact that the fact that, you know, we have prosecutors and people who meet out justice as part of the, you know, the american society is a sign of strength. you know, when my parents came, and when i grew up here, in the 70s, part of the time, you know, indians were confined to being doctors and engineers and college professors. today we have movie makers, writers, and, of course, you

know, prosecutors like -- >> so in your research, what does it bring into the story. >> i think it was an advantage in the sense that i understood some of the dynamics of the story, you know, the communal differences, you know, the difference between sri lanka or indian or a hindu married to a muslim, and who midway, if you read the book, mid way in the scandal starts having marital problems and goes over to another indian friends' home to pray, and it's because he's a hindu, unlike her husband who is a muslim, and so i think it helps in understanding, you know, the cultural forces that

played a big role in the story. it was also a challenge, though, because, you know, one of the central protagonists of the book is, of course, roger, and here was me, someone of the community, writing a book that was going to shine a spotlight on missteps, and how do you do that? a way that that doesn't open you up to accusations of, you know, just taking down a hero. i was cognizant as we wrote the book. >> in fact, large part of the book, i mean, pore tree -- portrait comes across as an upright figure, principled, and, you know, had absolutely earned

that position to the top ranks. >> right. >> what do you think, you know, since you've really gone into such detail? that's the question everyone wants to know, why? >> there's a number of factors that roger built up the career in the himmerlands in a way, been in scandinavia, chicago, and in the late 1990s, he's thrust into this new bright lights big city phenomena. he suddenly is mingling, and, you know, i think he looked at the 30-year career and said,

what do i have to show for it? it's interesting, you know, all of the dissent, if you will, happens after he steps down from the helm of mckenzie, you know? he becomes closer to roger in 2005, and in in 2004, there's this talk at columbia, and, you know, i've watched a tape, and you have a sense of a man really casting about, trying to figure out what was he going to do? how is he going to, you know, achieve a new high, and i think he was really struggling. >> so that success at mckenzie was not enough? >> not enough. >> he was far more ambitious -- >> right. >> but, you know, when i read -- i read the book, of course, anita, and i was up nights

reading it. it was so gripping. it's like a novel. there's great shakespeare tragedy, but when i read it, i got the sense, you know, there's an underlying sympathy that you have for him that, you know, may not have been the case in your interpretation of roger, and the colleague, but a huge wave of sympathy for him, am i correct? >> that's why i read the passage i did because the picture said we saw over the last several year was a stoic man, you know, a dignified statesman, and i, you know, when i went to interview members of the family, and luckily, i went there before, you know, he was

indicted, and he spoke to me openly, you know, was roger affected at all by his father's death? you know, he hardly ever talked about it, and he -- his first roommate at mcken disci told me that, you know, he didn't know rogers was an orphan, and, his cousin said to me, of course he was. he was wandering around in a comatose state, hopped on a train, and he come to calcutta when he found out his father was ill, and the moment he learned he died, he was just, you know, in a daze. >> so, you know, when you meet -- you met almost 200 people. >> yes. >> in researching this book. >> some on the phone. >> okay. well, i'm glad to know that. [laughter] i thought you were superhuman, but, you know, you talked to 200

people, and then you hear all these different voices, pros, and cons, and so how do you sift through that? how do you arrive at, you know, a true and fair picture of that, you know, reflects reality? you must have got a lot of stat tick as well? >> yeah, i mean, certainly, there was certainly a core of people at mckenzie who also did not like roger who thought he had taken the firm in the wrong direction who argued you could have predicted what happened. i felt, you know, the crime, if you will, was so -- had gotten such press and he suffered so much as a result of the crime. i think his lawyer, you know, at the end of the trial said it's a

greek tragedy of epic proportions, and so to me what was interesting about the story was who was the man? who was the human who ended up in this very bad place? >> yeah because despite him being so high profile, and, you know, written about extensively, and i remember, you know, meeting roger op several occasions, interviewing him, you know, visiting with him at his home, and i thought, oh, my god, this is it, this is what success means. he had the golden life, but there was always that sort of barrier, and i mean, he always kept, you know, a part of him, which is very private. >> right. >> and so i think, you know, you were able to sort of penetrate that through this book. >> right. >> did you find that difficult? i mean, was it? i mean, were people, you know,

from his past, you know, you met, i know his secretary, his, you know, you used every source. was that, you know, difficult for you, or -- >> i think -- i think going to calcutta was very helpful in understanding because, you know, his cousins spoke very freely, and they knew the young roger, who was rather precocious child, and i remember a story about how, apparently on one family trip, he got on -- he got on the roof of the car, and he wouldn't -- he wouldn't climb down, and they had to pry him with sweets before he would come down, you know? ..

raj rajaratnam receiving inside information from various players. if you have an easy case to bring you will bring an easy case. trying to prosecute the creators of the mortgage fraud debacle is far harder, you can probably bring cases against brokers who sold these shut the mortgages but how do you tie these brokers to the head of the investment bank's? is very difficult, they're too many layers to penetrate and this was an easy case to bring.

>> they using the sentence was too hard for both of them? >> i don't want to comment on the sentence because i don't think it is my role to, but again, i think a lot of people have remarked to me don't you think raja gupta got a severe sentence and i think he was very lucky getting the sentence he did. if he was will for another judge a thinking would have gotten many more years because in a way the crime he committed was far more serious than the one that

raj rajaratnam committed. he was a board member. he had a fiduciary responsibility to keep the secrets of the board and the board room. >> back home people in power have a sense of entitlement, almost expect immunity, this kind of thing would not have happened, do you think that sense of entitlement is something they bring here as well? are they well aware of the consequences? this kind of blatant behavior that comes across in your book what makes the living fade believed they could get away with this? is it to do with that sort of indian s those of power giving you in unity? >> i am not sure it has to do with that. one of raj rajaratnam--one of raj rajaratnam's best friends, bill clinton, also thought he

was untouchable. i think it was one of the attendant attributes of power. you have a sense of invincibility and raja gupta had gone to that point in life where he really thought he was not going to be affected by this. i am thinking of a lot of reporting i did in the yearly months when his parents found out he had a problem and his reaction to finding this out was not to be really concerned. i think it is because he didn't think it would come to mention. >> i was wondering if you could read a little bit, give us a flavor of that time when he was really at the peaks of his

career. >> a day. this is when he was at the height of his power, and he finds out he may have a problem, his first inkling that i won't get to that. i will keep him at the height of his power. it was tuesday, november 24, 2009, and russia gupta was head the the the the to the white house for the first state dinner hosted by barack obama and his wife, michele, the most glamorous political couple since the kennedys. it had taken awhile for and to step down from mckinsey. that he was busier than ever. he sat on a handful of corporate boards of goldman sachs, procter and gamble and american airlines to name a few. he hoped his retirement from the top job would slow him down but he was in the throes of building his own private equity company

from scratch. jennings from continent to comment in the suitcase as intent on being a game changing private equity and philanthropy as he had been during at storied career in conforming. dressed in a black suit with a handkerchief and pocket he made his way to the south lawn from the gilded east room which served as a staging area for the dinner. at every turn he ran into friends, chatted with a new age physician wearing his signature gems that eyeglasses, mingling with a top lawyer in the new administration and caught up with governor bobby jindal, the republican governor of louisiana. his parents migrated to america from india six months before he was born. he was typical of guests at the white house that night. the ostensible purpose of the evening was to honor the indian prime minister, the event also

served as a barometer for how far and how fast an immigrant group had risen. in one generation indian americans had bolted from outsiders to will facets of american society. if from the google wanted to make small talk on the security line with the fortune 500 ceo he could tease jeff immelt who was born and bred -- if he wanted to bask in a reflective glow of a pea -- tp presenter did chat with the correct. hollywood was represented at the event. steven spielberg and the indian director of the $0.06 whose birthplace was in india were in attendance that night. as one of the pioneering indian success stories in the united states he knew all the indian entities and as the mackenzie legend in hot spots too. he had worked with many and served as a mentor to others. when the principal deputy

solicitor general was in high school and getting pressure from his indian parents to study medicine. he advised in to pursue his dreams. one of the chief attorney for evident in the government before u.s. supreme court, was a testament to which the heights indians had risen in american society. as he looked around a room that night was breathtaking to see the diversity and death of talent said the u.s. ambassador to india. there were ceos and the entrepreneur, doctors, hotel owners and riders, aspiring office seekers and officeholders, people who had grown up poor in india but now they were the ceo of the company. you could feel her all alive the american dream was in that room. there was never any question he would be invited. he walked through vastly different worlds, business, led to become india and america without losing a set. he was friends with all the

indian business men, he was close to the head of the powerful indian conglomerate reliance industries who viewed rather gupta as one of indiana's most treasured exports to had reached the pinnacle of corporate life in the united states that never lost his affection for his homeland. he was often described as the david rockefeller of india. his holdings run the gamut from land rovers to hotels to the taj {~ñ]mahal palace hotel and workd earlier on to help with his dream of an indian business school in to reality. but his most important relationship, one that certainly helped secure an invitation that leaving was his friendship with the guest of honor, dr. st.. one of the few indian executives in america who could get the indian prime minister on the phone in short notice. despite mackenzie's prominent in india peer not acquainted in nearly 90s when he was a rising star and sings, the previous

finance minister was the architect of economic reforms that ushered in an era of entrepreneurial freedom. when india prospered in the wake of the reform, mackenzie thrived, advising a rash of indian companies and playing a pivotal role in building -- it was during his time as managing director that mackenzie opened his groundbreaking knowledge center in new delhi hiring the feast of indian researchers, many with m b as to analyze important trends like cellular phone penetration for mackenzie consultants. when the mackenzie knowledges and it turned out to the future it he went global with the area, preach the sermon of of shoring to american companies eager to cut costs and puts them to send more and more to support corporate research, legal transcription and financial analysis to india. clients were thrilled in india he was a corporate rock star as recognizable in mumbai as jamie dimon is in new york.

was no small irony is that one of his in a companion that the white house that evening was labor leader in the stern, president of the company's second-largest union. stern, whose organization spent the most money supporting obama, set between president and his wife at that table decorated with gold charter planes and purple and magenta arrangement of roses, sweet peas and green apple tablecloths'. although the agreement and coconut stage race spurned the opportunity to manage what some consider responsible for the fading prospects of the american worker. and companies at goldman included public pension plans, didn't have more regard for the worker. in his soft-spoken way insisted they did. they gave money to needy organizations that he had something more radical in mind, profits more broadly distributed to rank-and-file employees.

over here in the debate, his dinner companion, treasury secretary to indict her and kent conrad. it was heady company. if anyone had told him back when he was a little boy in calcutta that he would someday work at, lone run mackenzie and be invited to the white house for dinner, they might have had an easier time convincing him that he would walk on the moon. the 6 he had attained wooley serve to make the events that followed all the more unfathomable. >> you referred to that particular time when the first call came from goldman sachs from legal counsel and his reaction, i think, was -- he is rushing through the airport, it is just doesn't really sink in. and is not the reaction of

somebody who has done something wrong, it is purely the reaction of somebody who's innocent so how do you square that reaction with the final conviction? >> i don't think even to this day he really believes he did something wrong. and i think -- i square that reaction, my take on his attitude to the goldman general counsel who calls him and says we heard the defense are investigating -- investigating you for a tipping raj rajaratnam -- chuck is reaction to an arrogance of belief that if this is a problem is going to go away. i am too powerful to be touched, a bit like bill clinton entertain someone in the oval

office and thinking no one will hear of it. >> do you think you could read a couple drafts from their? i think it is sort of says the stage for the polk, if you come located that. you -- thinking back on the book i think that is important for the audience to understand. restarted from and how we can find it. >> absolutely. while i am finding the passage. >> isn't it earlier in the book. >> the earlier part is when greg finds out and it goes to lloyd blankfein. that is earlier but his reaction is actually later.

he is rushing through -- you want a conversation and that is later. if you would like to ask me something while i am finding that. >> you talk about casting a bad light on the community. does it call into question the indian success story so to speak in the united states? is it going to make it that much harder for the next generation to reach the heights that raja gupta did? >> he had a magical journey in the united states. they came in greater numbers starting in the 70s, lyndon

johnson's reforms and in one generation they have gone on to become tough lawyers in this country. today we are added point -- likely to become a federal appeals court judge in d.c. and as you can tell from the opening passage, we had moviemakers, politicians and i do think the scandal involving russia do that and some of the other indian luminaries will cast a shadow on the community in for a while. i remember when i started writing this book i was at a gala and a prominent indian american who heads the bank came

up to me and he said why this book? why this book? you could tell that on some level his own sense of security felt threatened by this episode even though he had nothing to do with it. >> it is so ironic that you mention in your after word in the book that someone like to mark where there was a pure money trail and a link between him and raj rajaratnam but that is not the case, came to a conclusion because they were business partners and indirectly he is benefiting bus in his case, clearly there was the payoff. and he sings like a canary and that day. it seems totally unfair and as

you right now of that he is probably getting a second career back home, do you think raja gupta could rehabilitate himself back home quite easily? >> i think it is very likely he will. i was thinking recently an american who had just come back from india, it is interesting that while the press in the united states, overwhelmingly negative, in india he is something of a hero, somebody who has been mistreated by an unjust u.s. legal system so i think raja gupta will easily readable detail himself in india, no question. >> would you like to -- for a

minute -- >> this actually is 17 days after the first scene at the white house that i read from and raja gupta is at philadelphia international airport and about to board a plane and get the call from greg palma, the general counsel of goldman sa s sachs. palm caught up with gupta at the airport, the office call on december 11, 2009, with two tipoffs that the conversation they were about to have would be uncomfortable and could make goldman and gupta address series, a range to have a colleague listen in on their conversation. to the people liked to have one on one conversations but decided the topic was sensitive so it was important there be an extra set of years and hands to record what was said and monitor gupta's reaction. if gupta had not registered this call would be different from any others he had with a goldman

official, a palm said something else that should have put him on notice. representing the corporation, not you, palm told him. palm wanted to make sure there was no doubt in his mind this was not a privileged conversation that would be protected by blair client confidentiality. is a matter involved in something much bigger, the contents of the conversation could be handed over to law-enforcement officers investigating the matter. what can you tell me about raj rajaratnam and have you ever provided information about what we do worked out before the call. not entirely sure what palm was writing about. goldman came to learn gupta provider raj rajaratnam information about the firm. did not slide of of the handle. he comported himself in exactly the way palm and others that goldman had grown to expect, very calm lee and sayre regally

he denied he had ever provided raj rajaratnam with confidential information about goldman, then went on to explain why this was preposterous. told palm and other lawyers who were listening in that he and raj rajaratnam at one point had been business partners, the two had a falling out and were no longer clothes and their partnership had stemmed from what raja gupta entered into many years back. he poured ten million into an investment dealer and invested more money in the entity, raj rajaratnam he later learned had taken his money out, and ten million investments had gone to zero and hired accountants and lawyers to sue him and the galion chief was arrested. why would i help someone with whom i had a dispute. >> thanks. a couple more questions before opening up to the floor. you for that one very

interesting, juicy part of the story right at the end. i don't want to disclose that because that is something anita raghavan has uncovered which is not common knowledge at all but icahn disclosed the title of the chapter called family secrets and it is a pretty explosive secret which gives a different complexion to gupta's background and ultimately what happened. i will not disclose the secret because we want you to buy the book. >> i went to you enjoy the book, to read the book first. >> how did you ever find this?

>> guest: this was actually common knowledge in calcutta. no one really wrote about it, out of deference to gupta's father who was a journalist. of course i wasn't going to write about it based on the chatter i had at my disposal in london, wonderful archives of the british library and i had a sense that when this incident happened, i started looking through old newspapers and i found out that this incident, this episode was something that happened in the 1930s in calcutta and newspapers ran daily stories about the incident

and it caused great shame and dishonor to gupta's family because so many of them were steeped in education, academia. but even though it was rumored about, by going to calcutta, i interviewed a number of people who knew gupta's father, were very old and i learned of the circumstances of what really happened. i felt it was important to include this story because i think it was this burden the family had carried for so many years. everybody was aware of it,

people talked about it in hushed tones, they said he did something he should have never done gupta's father and i think it cast a pall over raja and his siblings yet there was something very honorable in the dishonor. >> host: finally, anita raghavan, what is the key take away from this whole saga? some would say this would paint indians in the bad light but how do you view it? what would you like the readers to understand about this book? >> i think it shows that we as a community have arrived in america.

we are finally large enough in number, we are economically significant, and as a result, we now have our own crime that will but prosecuted, we have episodes like this from time to time, but if anything, me it is a celebration of the community's strength rather than its weakness. >> host: we can open up to the floor now. i am sure we will have lots of questions. please come forward. >> just briefly introduce yourself. >> i am a physician from new york. both of you are from wall street so kind of insiders. [laughter] >> host: from wall street.

>> guest: does inside trading happen much more often and too few people get caught or is this a relatively rare phenomena in? >> host: anita raghavan? >> guest: there are ways and insider trading is rampant. it probably happens less often today than it did in 2008-2009 but it is a common feature of the landscape of wall street and it is inevitable because you have so much information sloshing around and some of it is truly confidential information and some of it is pure rumor. so yes, i think it is an endemic problem on wall street. >> right up front here. >> thank you very much.

most insightful story. extraordinary. and the timing of it. will you be able to distribute the book in your country? >> guest: yes, i think so. i think there are plans afoot to do that at some point. we are the world's greatest democracy. redo a lot of things in india. >> host: this group might buy a copy. it has happened in the past. i think over there. >> i am quite perplexed by a fact that you said picco low hanging fruit. the intriguing part is there is

not one shred of evidence presented. in spite of all the hours of wiretapping, there is not one shred of evidence. why is that funny? >> guest: a lot of foundations focus on evidence as the a wiretap. this is the first case where wiretaps were used to prosecute insider trading. insider trading has been prosecuted for the last 20 years with circumstantial evidence and i don't know if you sat through the trial as i did but the circumstantial evidence was quite compelling. >> host: by that you mean the timing? >> guest: the timing of the phone calls. >> host: the board meetings. >> guest: they goldman sachs -- >> there is up follow-on.

beneficially contact there being no link and any of those contacts. as i am sure -- >> that is not right. there was a case in 2008 against the credit suisse banker, u.s. attorney's office could not at trial showed that money had gone to the banker. there was no benefit, they were trying to allege that there was a man in pakistan who may have gotten some money and he was kicking it back to the credit suisse banker, but there was no actual display of its. and benefit is a very nebulous term in insider trading cases and it doesn't have to be money handed over and suitcases like

marty siegel received in the late a.d.s. it can be benefit as you know general business ties will lead to greater business. >> host: there is a description in the book, there were no cases of cash, this was not as exciting as trial as the previous one. can we just have -- >> psychological question. financial failure, because of that, determined to prove the exact opposite, and all this grief came from there. >> guest: raja came from very humble roots and when his father came out of jail there's a

document that i uncovered, he had -- i am doing this from memory. it was something like 10,000 in debts which is an enormous amount of money in that time and rather -- the talk -- his father was someone if anyone asked for the shirt off his back he would give it to them. we were very lucky because had it not been for our mother who put aside some money, we would have been starving, we would have been on the streets when our parents died. i do think he grew up at a young age learning the importance of the security that came from us. >> hello.

i wanted to ask you, you had said that you believe that this scandal, these problems are going to reflect badly upon the salvation community. i know the economist magazine disagreed with that finding. they found your book to be extraordinarily well written, they said that analysis was in their minds, quote, nonsense. i wanted to know why you think the actions of two people is going to reflect badly on three million in this country or 1 billion worldwide. that is one question and if you can, if you can answer the question, why was it in your investigative journalism did you find, why where these two wiretapped? it is not standard practice and no one else has ever been wiretaps or prosecuted based on wiretaps, why were these two, raj rajaratnam and raja gupta of wiretapped and lastly i must ask

you, will you talk about the indian diaspora, are you including all south asians in your analysis or just people from india? >> and let me answer question 2, why were these two wiretaps? they were not the only two wiretapped. daniel was wiretapped, there were a number of others wiretapped. they even tried to get not a wiretap but in the summer of 2009 tried to get of former associate of steve cohen to record him in incriminating conversations and he didn't take the bait. to your question 3, my book, raj rajaratnam was the person who was the catalyst, if you will, and i was focused on the indian

diaspora, raja gupta, these were individuals who were the best and brightest of the indian community. they went to the establishment schools, joy and the establishment companies. they were different from raj rajaratnam on the fringes of wall street. he became a success through galleon. to your first question, i think when the adaptation of my book ran in the new york times i read a number of comments and i find comments more fascinating to date and the stories actually. it was stunning to me but there were a number of people who said

he essentially what do you expect? these are south asians or you know. so i do think it will have, it will have an affect on the community. i am not saying -- by the same token i did mention that he will be confirmed for the federal appeals court in d.c.. it is not devastating but it will in the short term particularly on wall street. [inaudible question] >> host: confirmed by the senate. do you think in another context, back home, so to speak, would raj rajaratnam and raja, if their paths crossed would they be friends? two different -- >> guest: i personally don't

think they would have. they weren't friends outside of business. they didn't socialize together. raja didn't go to raj rajaratnam's birthday party in kenya. this was a marriage of mutual interest for a particular period of time. >> host: right back there. [inaudible] >> the arguments, you were there i presume. >> guest: for the raj rajaratnam -- >> there for raja gupta? you wrote a piece on hindu

business. okay. >> i had someone there. >> i was there. let me ask you very quickly, to your point, the wiretaps on september 24th and october 24th and the argument is just here's a. october 24th seems to be kind of concealing. >> guest: there is only an oct. 24. that is not a wiretap. it is just a phone call. >> the extended testimony. and for -- jon newman -- acquistion -- so what is your take on it in terms of what you heard?

>> guest: it is a panel of three judges. one of the judges is seen to be generally pro the defense, just my reporting of the judge. the others judge, that is right, the other judge is pro prosecution. jon newman is the wild card. he is very intellectually rigorous and i think they came away disappointed by the questions he asked. >> host: what did the lawyers come up with? but -- sorry. next over here. the second row. >> i actually -- the emerging

power. thinking of somebody who was asked mackenzie and know when a lot of colleagues there, since the trial of raja gupta is so acute is mind-boggling. it sounds like mackenzie and makes sense, the absolute key is client confidentiality to the extent that ten years or eight years after that i don't talk about that even though they are in the nexus anymore. that is the second point. any impact on south asia? a lot of consultants who were indian in origin and just the chatter that goes across, they will be set up for special scrutiny and feel like they are part of the indian mafia at mackenzie and that does cast a disparaging shadow on them. it could be long lasting. but that is the impact.

>> guest: a good question. okay. >> host: right here in the second row. >> my question is speak to interview raja for this book? >> guest: i won't comment on sources. >> i am also perplexed that if you were talking to his family members or cousins in calcutta did they know the subject matter of the book? at not putting him in a good light. >> guest: they did. >> giving you all this information. >> guest: a lot of the book is about various other people, a very sympathetic portrayal of him. that is what they contributed to. >> one last thing, this wiretap,

the conversation after the board meeting of goldman was that on tape? >> guest: there was no wiretap but when i was answering the previous gentleman's question was i was trying to say is this is the first case where wiretaps have been used. there have been insider-trading cases in the 80s, in the 90s, post millennium against caucasians and others and all of them have been bought using circumstantial evidence and the credit suisse bankers that i mentioned where there was no benefit shown, just this allegation that this man was tipping someone in pakistan who was placing a trade, this man was sentenced to eight years in

prison on circumstantial evidence. >> host: wasn't there one phone call, a conversation -- where he says where he talks -- raj rajaratnam is complaining about to mark saying i give him $1 million for what and he says you should be more mindful, not paying attention. wasn't that -- >> guest: that was a wiretapped conversation but not part of the charges because the information being passed did not rise to material. >> one particular, the one for which he is charged that the board meeting on september 23rd, that wasn't on the tape or wiretap because in the hearing, pulling exactly that, the argument that it was tapped, but

not -- >> guest: and follow wiretapped. >> say they don't have a on the table. >> so the title of this book had been the rise of raja gupta and the fall of galleon rather than the indian american elite, i looked at the table of contents and the excerpts in the new york times and looks like it is all about gupta and not the american elite in general, but -- in titling books like this that way perhaps you are going -- casting a shadow? >> guest: raja gupta was an

important member of the community and his journey was similar to the journey of many in the community. the rise, the explosive rise in a short period of time and sometimes he used one character to show what a community has done and certainly his rise was emblematic of the community's. >> and his politician? >> guest: the book spent a lot of time on his rise. we can count pages later. >> host: the title of the is "the billionaire's apprentice: the rise of the indian-american elite and the fall of the galleon hedge fund," clearly about one person. placed in the broader context that is how i understood it. right there. that quarter. >> good evening.

my name is megan and i am part of the wave of diaspora use polk about that came in the 1960s and although i have not read your book i find that it takes a tremendous amount of courage and strength for us to be reflective and look back at ourselves and despite our strengths and all of the success we had it is very important for our growth to also recognize some of the things we have not done with good ethics and have not conducted ourselves in the way in which we should so thank you for that. my question, related to that, is what insight or perspective would you offer to the next generation of diaspora that is the band coming, applying to college and looking at their career path, what perspective

could you offer? >> guest: i think they have an advantage that certainly my parents's generation, the same generation didn't have and they grew up in the united states and they are assimilated and they have a better appreciation of the rigidity, if you will, of laws in the united states. the lack of -- lack of -- and i think that is why this is a story about south asians but it is also a story of two different generations of south asians. raja gupta, kumar, they were one

generation and even though he was born in india became here when he was 2 and he is a different generation. and i think what we are seeing is, you know, the assimilated indian will be very successful in this country. they don't need any advice from me. >> i attended the raja gupta trials last summer and was fascinating just seeing the whole family, whether it was acting for it genuine grief, regret going along, but i would like a little more on the tipping point you brought up early in the conversation, in

the columbia speech you referenced, continued about how to go higher, how does one thing to hang out in that kind of sophisticated billionaire glamour set and at the same time wanting a little more money via raj rajaratnam? i don't understand how raj rajaratnam won the polk that instead of wanting to be in that elite class of sophisticated billionaires', is it simply agreed, by urinalysis, simply greed that attracted raja gupta a like this gentleman here? i never heard on tape

anything--any words that said he had actually given the tips. my second question, what i am even more interested in, the wiretapping. did it begin by his association with terrorism in sri lanka giving financial aid to the camel tigers, collateral damage for something the government was interested in uncovering? >> guest: suwannee feels he told me he wrote a letter in 2006 to

the state department that he is -- he read the recommendation to raja gupta when he applied to harvard business school from mit and he had sort of paved the way with the feds to start looking ahead at raj rajaratnam. i don't think -- i think they were again -- i think it is sort of these sausage is far messier, there were two parallel investigations going on by two competing offices of raj rajaratnam. one was the insider-trading investigation that was happening

at the manhattan u.s. attorney's office and the other was the investigation in the eastern district in to the terrorism activities and the man and u.s. attorney's office which is known as the sovereign district of new york won out and the insider-trading case went forward. to your first question, i think raja saw raj rajaratnam as someone who could help him make up for lost time in terms of lost creation. raja had this -- talked to people about one thing -- he needed -- he needed more money to manage.

so raja saw himself, making that into a lucrative venture. >> host: the point where you talk about the balance of power between the two shifted and raj rajaratnam wanting to to get plug is into those and when raja gets the kkr offer he asks raj rajaratnam's advice. do you think that balance of power shifted and raj rajaratnam had the upper hand at this stage when the whole thing blew up? >> guest: i do. when he got close to raj rajaratnam i think -- he came from the position of superiority. he was the one who had a great

contacts, the remarkable rolodex but by the time you get to that, here is the man who his entire life had been giving advice to other corporations, advice to boards, he was the one who actually worked at the preeminent firm in the financial services industry and here he was asking someone who never actually succeeded in a firm like kkr ford vice on how to take this job. sort of a stunning turn of events. >> host: in the back please, right in the back. >> my question is related -- from his college days, he probably graduated from the 60s

and 70s. >> guest: 1971. >> i read everywhere that raja comes from a humble background where he had financial troubles at home. how could the afford to go to harvard business school? >> guest: he had a scholarship. >> related question is how did raja managed to crawl inside mackenzie? there are not many indian americans, was it primarily in the late 80s that the mackenzie board recognize opportunities outside of the european markets so that someone who would go out in the asian markets, so was

that the primary criteria? >> guest: remember mackenzie's partnership and raja was selected by his partners so there is no board or anything appointing him. one of the reasons raja was elected to the top job was in the early 90s again there was this generational split ask mackenzie. there was the old guard represented by people like don waite and herb pens where and a new up and coming guard and raja was the perfect candidate. he was thoughtful, soft-spoken, non confrontational. and i think the new guard gravitated around him. jeff skilling, who was that mackenzie at the time, people laughed but he was very -- i

have a lot of correspondence with jeff skilling, he is a beautiful writer and very eloquent and a very smart man and he sort of laid out the landscape that mackenzie -- during the 80s and 90s and the tension between these generations and i think raja came out of that fight successful. >> i am asian but not indian. very obvious. your comments please on how the reforms in basel iii might have affected -- more importantly the future of the financial wizard one of thes, specifically about the transparency brought about

by basel iii. >> guest: i am not sure it would have affected insider-trading cases. i am not sure how that would have affected it. to be honest with you. >> hi,. we talked a lot about raja gupta. i am curious from you more about raj rajaratnam and his motivations and the dynamic of him and his family and raj rajaratnam who is now facing prosecution. what is going to happen if you have any comment? >> guest: raj rajaratnam to use his own words would say i am alone. i am a rogue. and i think that is what he was. he liked to push the envelope wherever he could. he liked to play people.

there is this episode in the relationship between raj rajaratnam and raja where at the end of 2006, raja range the high interest loan, there part of a consortium to buy bank in south india and the loan isn't paid back in time and raj rajaratnam sends raja an e-mail saint of the money doesn't arrive i am canceling all further lunches regarding punch capital which was the south asian money manager that raja was trying to build. so raj rajaratnam had this keen sense of people. he was very street smart, he

could do circles around the mackenzie men. and in terms of raja's brother is interesting to see him taking a very different approach from his brother to is recent indictment on charges of insider trading. appears he is trying to work out a plea with the u.s. attorney's office. i suspect if he does plead guilty he will plead guilty and not cooperate because if he was to cooperate he would also have to -- to tell -- give the prosecutors information about his brothers and there's still one brother that they would be interested in building a case against. >> host: we will take a last question from that gentleman

there and then anita raghavan will be virtually disclosing the whole book so just take the last question. >> not actually a question but just a comment. ..