>> maybe before we open it up i would be interested to hear where do you see that sight of hope? where do you see something being made out of nothing, the sort of black tradition? is there a possibly that there is, if the black church is dying, some sort of resurrection? is there collaboration? was the prospect of moving the conversation in a meaningful way in this moment? >> real good question, and in my

experience there's a lot of hope in the pew, the pulpit is largely in the way. a critique of clergy, because folks know what's wrong. they know that something has to change, but if you are raised like i was initially, you've got this old time religion, you know something's wrong but you don't know what to do about it. or you feel something is wrong but you don't know what it is. what that says is that remedial christianity has to be consciousness-raising christianity. for instance, we touched on democracy but democracy is something that is not just some abstract word that's out there. something we really have to

discuss. what are the limits of democracy? what does democracy ask for? are we in a democracy right now? what do we have a right to ask for in a democracy? that's just one thing. and with regard to the bible, i must say, maybe i dedicate the last 25, 30 years of my life to the history of language and the interpretation of the bible, but i see, i've been teaching these students, and i see that there are even some who knows something is wrong, something has to change, but until it's presented to them, things remain the same. and so there has to be i think this real concerted effort, much more concerted and we had before and say look, wait a minute, this is what it says here in context, to make it clear, and go out and make a real effort to

raise consciousness in the church and the community. i've tried to do that in the books. i've tried to do that in a lecture the idea of, the speeches i give, the sermons they use to invite me to give, you know? and i think that we all have to do that in our own way and see the church as a site of struggle, a site of struggle. it's a place to go to be somebody and to worship and all that but it's also the site of struggle to empower our people and to letee this faith that they believe in is not just for over there. jesus said the spirit of the lord is upon me, the spirit of the lord is upon me to bring good news to the poor, which has institutional -- implications, liberation to the captives and free folk from jail. want a we talking about now?

the prison investor complex. all these things are things on the ground. the lord's prayer is about politics and economics, making sure everybody has enough bread. make sure lord, lease forgive our debt because they are beaten down by the debt structure. folks don't know this. we have to raise the consciousness, that they know what this is what it's really about. that's the power really has for us. >> it's great when you're on the stage with a bunch of preachers. >> what does that mean? >> i'm teasing you. >> i'm thinking about philadelphia right now, because i lived there and i know, i want to give a concrete example about what i think churches can be doing to a group of pastors have been very instant and going after, helping people to protest the closing of the schools and the firing of a teachers. one of the things i've been

thinking about is the historic role of the black church in education and now what's currently happening in the education system. we have major cities in the nation that are firing teachers, not replacing them, closing schools. we are going to be in the bad shape in philadelphia. one of the things i think churches can do, thinking about my friend at her church where she is getting people out there to protest, to g go to these kis of things that we really need to do. it has to not just be the abstract. all of us on the stage can be abstract all the time. what i'm interested in is how could build the bridge between the church and the academy? how can we be public intellectuals about religion and also intellectuals that work with religion to do something? i don't think it means anything for me take it off of the stage and not advocate for those causes in the way that i can. so i do think that something interesting is happening because, because all these services are dying in our major

cities. that churches are looked at as places to go get these services but they're not going to be able to do that if they don't have the financial means to do so and i think this creates opportunity but it also creates a challenge and we have to figure out how that's going to come together. >> really quickly. part of the reason churches are being put forward is precisely because this troublesome neoliberalism state. where the state still function is to protect the fishing workings of the market. everything else resounds back to our own individual self-care, and that self-care turns out to be simply our ability to make choices. the churches are pushed in that. that's really complicated. but true. and so what's interesting is we have an example of what's going down, while can have a -- what can happen in north carolina. so north carolina is off the

chain. the republican takeover of the governor's house as well as the legislature has led to all sorts of behavior. and you see a mobilization of churches and civil rights organizations and grassroots organizations in that state that some of us know about, right, because with folks down on the front lines doing it, and we're reading the blogs and we don't see it on cnn or msnbc a lot. we might see it on msnbc, but the point is we have an example. so churches have a model of how to mobilize around a particular issue. i just want to say this quickly because i know we're running out of time. it's dark out here. it's like -- folks are catching hell out of here at since 2008 come with experienced a great black depression. folks are losing homes. they've lost their retirement. folks can't get jobs. in february we were at 14%. right now we are at 13.7%

unemployment, and those numbers are cooked. the height of the summer, teenage unemployment jumping through the roof. we don't need somebody to give somebody to address negative reinforcement. they need jobs. 43.6% health care delivery. we are not getting it. food deserts, we lived there. we are sleepwalking, right? and we are looking for the church to wake us up, and part of what we don't want to admit is that some of these folk, right, are complicitous in the evil. i'm sorry to be polemic but it's dark out here. and we've got a black man in the white house but it's dark out here. and trayvon martin has gotten so may people excited, now lbos are getting sure because folks want to get in front of the march. but a brother to organize the million hoodie march when nobody

was talking about it, where is he? don't we see al sharpton and jesse? folk want to get in front of michael and talk. folk want to look at the teleprompter. we have everything they want to say in the world about what's happening, say what happened to trayvon martin. it's dark out here. people are playing games. d.c. what i'm saying? and it's in those moments that you want to hear a word, a french word to embolden the spirit, to get us up so that we can get out about the basis of what is needed. but the first thing that i need to say, i'm going to say it as passionately as i can come is that it's dark out here. and people are playing games. i can give less than the dam that we have our first african-american president. i'm saying it on national television.

the symbolic cash value of that is that zero. it's dark out here. and what happens when it's dark? who is supposed to give us a clarion call? where are we supposed to hear the word? i don't know. >> speaking of remedial christianity, the idea -- [applause] i think maybe we have to start, obery, at an earlier level because take the situation where jesus finds the young daughter 12, david and jesus comes in and he says, child, get up and actually raises the dead. that was a time when the black churches that we had the ministry of raising the dead. we could do that, but that's a little too tough for us now.

the fascinating thing that i noticed is that after jesus wakes up the girl from the dead and the mother and the father say, thank you, jesus, for raising our daughter from the dead, jesus stops and says, don't be praising me so much. give her something to eat. that's the most fascinating -- here he is, has performed a miracle, and then he takes time to say, well, she's been sick. she's going to need strength. she can't go to school. she can't play with the kids unless you give her something to be. then in the next chapter, almost as if he reinforces it, the 5000 people out there in the been listening to the kingdom of all the good preaching and jesus is give them something to eat, set them down. so what i would like to suggest is that maybe if the black church decided we are not going to be too heavy into this specialization in raising the dead, but we can give folks something to eat. that means that this is a

manageable problem almost, unless you know the magnitude of hunger in the training. so what has to happen is, we have to get nerve enough to say teachers people, that when you pay your taxes, that's your lunch with five barley loaves and two fishes. now you've got to go and tell the congress persons, don't fuss at them, just tell them all, the lord needs my tax money to feed the folks. and if you're legislation is cutting off food stamps for some people that's all they got getting in, you're in trouble. so make it a religious thing. go out and just say, jesus needs my lunch. i just paid, i just paid my taxes, the all england messed me up with my jesus. unless you're going to a range to feed these hungry people, i'm in trouble. don't mess me up.

and if i'm in trouble, you are going to be in trouble the next time. [applause] i think maybe sort of start on the kind of elementary level again, we ain't going to raise the dead but we also need to feed the hungry, something like that. [applause] >> a fitting note to open it up for questions and answers. there's a microphone right here. all right, so we have the question. if you could please state your question as clearly and concisely, and every particular member of the panel you'd like to address it to, that would be great as well. >> thank you for your performance. thank you. i find it remarkable that when we hire people to run our churches, we want them to have a voice. but instead, we call them pastor, and wanting to be an

administrator, a financial officer so that they instead, instead of being a progressive voice, the what -- they wind up running an institution. so progressive voices fall for the main problem of churches, that we are still the religion. what would be wrong with hiring someone for church and calling him profit? and we would expect the main job here she did was bring together a community of compassion and justice and with the spirit so, help us to learn that salvation comes through a compassionate and just community struggling to find salvation? >> okay. i think my answer would be that you all should stop putting pastors up as if you think the primary focus and mission and

energy is found in that pastor. i would rather go with james luther adams in that book he wrote called the prophet hood of all believers. and, in fact, everybody who is brought into the church and baptized should be told that part of what you're being baptized into is a prophetic tradition. and that each of you is called upon to fulfill a prophetic vocation. when you get ready to hire a pastor, find a pastor whose primary task it is to mobilize the prophetic energy that's present in the people, or testing with the people to be prophetic with respect to their responsibility. we can't expect the preacher -- [applause] do you want me to tell you something? the preacher is no strictly, primarily a reflector of what these people are, as well as what god is calling them to be. i would rather, in fact, so let

me say, what you are calling for is i think we need another great awakening. that is a revitalization of the culture so that almost all of the major institutions no, we need spiritual revitalization so as to achieve the goal of egalitarianism your that's what happened with all the great awakening. so i would like to be, if you hired somebody who was primary going to be a prophet, number one, that's audacious. you know, there are many callings, but let's challenge the church to fulfill its pastoral, it's priestly, and it's prophetic function. and let the lord pick up some special is because our dna at our personality inventory will say some folks are going to do that and others. here's what we do. we get some folks to march and

other folks to pray so that the marchers don't get weary on the way. [applause] >> may be we make sure we get all these questions up here, maybe if we could take the questions back to back and then give you all a chance to response we don't run out of time. >> mine is a quick one actually. this panel is really great, very eye-opening. at one point the person on the end, i'm sorry, i don't know your name, the church. >> obery spanky said the church could be the site of struggle and that struck me, and i was wondering like i feel like the church could be the side of struggle. but i'm wondering whether not you feel that, anyone on the panel really, that you feel the church has to be the site of struggle and whether not the amount of energy that has to be put into making the church the site of struggle is really worth it? because we could also be putting

energy directly into political activity that's really not, you know, complicated by the mission of the church. >> that's a good question. >> let's get a couple more questions in so we have time to get them all. >> i'm an artist and curator, so of course my question is going to do something with regard. in terms of the title of the panel, the struggle for american democracy in the church, i have observed, i grew up in the church of god and christ, you know, so the foundation is still there. still a part of me. i'm still passionate about it but i'm also an artist. and what the lord has given me some years ago was, go to the church and struck the church, shows the church their lack of using the art in the struggle, the lack of using the art to bring the people into the church. so my question is, looking back at the harlem renaissance, and

that is the first movement addressing social, educational and cultural change in america, how do you see the church being a part of that struggle? or is it or is it not a part of the struggle to they? >> another great question. >> thank you again as well for the panel. very enlightening. i also have a quick question, and my question was, we like taking the bible blueprint of communism of our religion or religious belief. a little bit of research i've done, africa had, you know, had, you know, values, rights, religion and everything like that. why have we abandoned that? and could it be some answers for us, you know, african-americans in that african religion? >> yes, i've been a deacon in my church for about the last 12 years, i find it -- i don't make

the distinction between religion and politics. i think it's the same social movement. my question is, you know, the black teen nearly as all churches all over the place but you can go on every coin. how do we effectively get them involved? because i'm telling you that if you got all those black churches moving in one direction, it would be powerful. >> i would like to also thank all the panelists for what has been an insightful conversation. what i'm hearing is that there's a crisis in the black church and, you know, i appreciate and support i think obery leading the panelists to have us think about reconditioning the black church doctrine around radical, social democracy. and so i support that as well, but i would also like us to go a little bit further and think

about, you know, why is it that we don't see ourselves as black people in the church? and why haven't you as black church been able to incorporate something that perhaps one of the questioners already asked, african cultural traditions? of the black communities and the day after and the afro caribbean and latin america have been able to synchronize. so what about the black church we envisioning the theology a little bit, taking a more critical, you know, examination of the historical theology so that we can as a radical element see ourselves in the sacredness of the church. it has been done elsewhere. it can be done, and i think that perhaps this may make the black church in the u.s. a little bit more legitimate, people at me that look like me, thank you.

>> one more question and they will give you a chance to weigh in. >> good evening. i enjoyed the panel so much. and i think that religion right now in the black unity is very important. i was brought up baptist, i still have that belief, some of my family are catholic. but i just wanted to express the fact that we all believe in the division of church and state. i know we have to be very -- [inaudible] and the like. but one of the things i was concerned about is our youth because the church now asked the congregation gets old, dying out and we're not bringing enough young people in the church, we need to be concerned about our youth and find a way to bring the back to our churches. i belong to a church that does have -- [inaudible]. and on sunday after trayvon, not

guilt and resentment, we were all upset about it. so as i. cried about it. our assistant pastor said one thing that was so profound and will have to take it to heart. he said that trayvon died and it wasn't, it wasn't an evil place they killed him, it was the ecosystem. the stand your ground must be stopped. >> thank you. i'll just restate quickly. with a question about youth, mobilization of all the churches, the relevance of other religious tradition to these churches, the art and the viability of the church as a site of struggle. we have about five more minutes. if you want to weigh in real quick. >> what i meant, as a basis for movement, does that make more sense? i don't mean stay in the church and struggle in the church.

they are empowered to go forth and do what must be done. not just spiritually now but politically in part as well. and the second half was what? >> [inaudible] >> the churches have to be pastoral and prophetic. they had to go out and change the world. that's the responsibility for all churches, not all churches fulfill the responsibility of have to do that. but what that says is that we go beyond institutional maintenance. we get empowered to go outside the walls of the church, and it must be that we want to change the society can change the world. not just save souls and bring them back to the church and do what you do. you see what i'm saying? it has to be a real basis of movement to really be the church of jesus envision, i think. >> some of that work in the

church actually is preparation, socialization, learning about the tools, the skills to engage in broader civic activity. so what we engage in struggles in local organizations and institutional spaces within civil society, those are training grounds. for when they step out of those institutional spaces. i understand. >> i would like to respond to the question about getting black churches together. it was my privilege to participate some years ago in what was called the congress of national black churches. and it brought together the major black denominations, the heads of the major black denominations to be in collaboration with them. this organization was funded by a foundation, and as long as the foundation money kept coming, we were able at least to strengthen the institution. but then a point came when it

was asked that each denomination make a contribution to the coalition, and beyond that, they were asked, well, give us your mailing list so that we can appeal to your people. and the bishops and the major leaders, president of these organizations, were fine as long as somebody else was funding it, but they were all at a survival level within their own institution and were carefully guarding their mailing lists, lest somebody else bring about this division of the resources. so my thinking is that until black institutions have economic viability sufficiently to think about being sacrificial for a

larger movement beyond institutionalization, it's not going to happen. so that's a good problem to say that marginal economic existence is the vein of most of our institution. and that none of us can be what god wants us to be until our community is lifted above the knee or survival level. which means that you don't have to teach us to be political. we have to ask churches say, we can't be all that jesus wants us to be if poverty continues to be the defining reality regarding most of the members of our church. and it becomes necessary for every church, not only to ask how do we keep the institution going, but how do we manage to do the hard work? and that's a real struggle, the hard work, of getting our fair share of the resources.

and god who called us to do what we are called to do said, i get the resources, so somebody must be porting. and the word redistribution, which was the major problem with the president, because when he said that word, some folks it is not our main. we have got to recognize that we cannot be the christians we ought to be apart from redistribution of precious resources that we can say yes to the lord in substantive ways. >> real quickly because i know we're about to leave. i just want to say this. this is something to do with the churches capacity. i think the churches around the country need to focus on one of three issues. they need to figure out how to mobilize their congregation around the problem of education, problem of the colonel justice system or the problem of jobs. if you're organizing around the criminal justice system, how did you engage in preventing, how

folk should come out and then they go back into jail, or you mobilize around undermining mandatory minimum. so in other words, what i'm saying is every church should organize itself around a particular issue focused in and around either education, criminal justice system, or jobs. if we can then focus our resource in one of these areas around a particular issue, then the churches can begin to do some serious work. i think they can make a tangible effect, impact. >> i want to address the two questions that have to do with africa and the aspirant religions and african traditional religions within the church. i think we will be very hard for some churches, not all but some, to embrace this because they have deep-seated theological issues. having said that, i think that the place to look for this kind of vitality are an african immigrant churches that are already here in this country are doing phenomenally well. and if you want to have a change

about what you want to see, what a black church look like, you need to go to an african church that is from an immigrant perspective, from either the caribbean or africa itself. that is a lot of vibrancy. i will say this. what's really important is that we need to think about how do we incorporate our ancestors? how do we live as though this is a cosmology that we don't see that separation? because we've got to think a lot like western thinking. and this is the problem. once we let go of that western thinking it becomes more possibility for spiritual life and to listen to the voices of our ancestors who are telling us and showing us what we need to be doing right now. the struggle may not be over but we don't have to struggle in church all the time. we need to take a struggle outcomes were. the church needs to be a place of life, fruitfulness, a place where people can be built up instead of torn down. and you know what i'm talking about. lastly to this is you talked about the arts, we can talk about this afterwards. this is a hugely important

piece. without the arts, without the plays and all these things that happen whether it was a drawing or sculpture or music and all these things that have been produced out of the black church, we need another renaissance. we absolutely need another renaissance. we can't just keep singing the same old thing and expect the used to be there. they are just not coming. [applause] >> let's give our panel one final round of applause. [applause] >> all right. we want to quickly just recognize that we've reached the end of a great day of programming. and that we want to thank all of our day's sponsors, including columbia university, our host, the shopper, as we'll see spend much of the broadcasting all day, as well as a host of other sponsors who have been in the room and out on the street and in the reception area all a