so many people here just one day after labor day break. ..

potential role in the transatlantic trade negotiations. for those of you just in case you didn't get a copy you will also be liable to download this from the brookings website and as i know from coming into the office we have boxes of it sitting around so if you didn't get a copy, get in touch with us and we can get one out to you again launching of the report today and we will be talking about some of his conclusions from having spent several months now looking at turkey's's interest in the negotiations and how this is likely to unfold and the challenges this will pose not just for your not what for turkey and for some of the others and will be interesting to see how they feel between europe and the united states unfold. we are also very much delighted to have our neighbor and

colleague uri dadush from the carnegie endowment who is one of the u.s.'s phoenix experts on the economic trade topic. and a director of the international economic program next to carnegie. he will give a brief overview of his report which you will have, and then uri will give some commentary based on his experience and his own work on this issue. and then they will both open it up to you in the audience for more of a discussion and also the questions. and finally, i would like to thank our colleagues in the turkish industry and business association. we have the u.s. representative here in the center wrote for their support for this, over all the turkey project but also the work that kemal has been digging on this topic. as you can imagine there are a lot of people in turkey itself who are interested in reading kemal's report, so we hope this

will also be of use to people elsewhere as they address this question. kemal, without further ado weigel handed over to you and look forward to having an interaction with all of you that have come today. thank you very much. >> thank you, fiona king and i wasn't sure whether we were going to do this from standing on the stage, sitting on the stage for standing on the stage. i would like to thank you for joining us this afternoon. this is a topic that i can exposed to or encountered as soon as i write it brookings earlier in the year in january. i can't say that i had heard it before. but it was a topic that evolved to be one close to my heart so i feel committed to the topic and i am delighted uri is able to join us because i can tell that

he is going to try to bring me down to earth on solid ground july was an interesting month because the trans-atlantic trade and investment partnership first round of negotiations to place. and in the same month also took place the 18th round of the transatlantic pacific -- transpacific partnership negotiations. now when you put the two together on the basis of the 2012 statistics, they constitute just under two-thirds of the world's gdp, the gross domestic product. and at the same time, a little bit under 50% of the world's trade. i think when you put these two figures together, one can begin to understand why turkey is a

very much interested in joining and finding a way in participating in ttip. i became interested in the topic that government bureaucracy and the business world up here to be on the same wave length on this topic. the prime minister himself has written a personal letter to obama. the minister of the foreign affairs when he recent his counterpart in march this was a topic he also brought up, and in the meantime the major turkish business association from atop the union chamber in tucson and who the representatives of our to have expressed interest in turkey's participation in ttip.

i believe out there among the government bureaucracy and business circles there is if i dare to say an intuitive feel of why this is important in terms of turkey's future economic performance. and all of this is happening against the following background that here is turkey who has been part of the western economic order since really the beginning since the period when imf and world bank started. furthermore, it is also taking place against the background of turkey becoming a trading state. you may have heard that once churchill had the house of commons when he pulled up his watch, people from the floor were yelling at him saying that

you need a calendar, a calendar, not a watch. [laughter] but i doubt i will perform at his level year. in the last 20 or 30 years the turkish economy has been transformed dramatically and trade has come to play a very important role i will return to this issue. but we have also entered since january since i took an interest in this topic a time in turkey's region and in terms of the mill least i need not go into the details of it but also in turkey itself. and many what every that turkey's democracy has taken an important event and there are the early signs of the economic difficulties and the horizon building up. part of the background is also that turkey is in a very

important geography. i believe it is in a geography where to forms of government, what we could call the trans-atlantic form of government depend and rely on the democracy, the liberal democracy, free markets and human rights. and on the other hand is the government's model. it's more that puts more emphasis on what they call the sovereign democracy and states involvement in capitalism one way or the other. so what i would like to say in the remaining time is what is at stake here. why is turkey so keen and a little bit more into the details of its. what has been so far the u.s. and the e.u. response? and let me say they have not been very exciting so far. what should be done and what are the challenges and opportunities

a few quick words about the transpacific partnership and ttip itself to be at again i see these to exercise this that are trying to pick up from where doha failed to deepen the liberalization of the trade with what they call the wto plus agenda. not just removal of patterns that also addressing the issue of the non-tariff barriers and importantly begin to harmonize the rules to deal with investments, public procurement, labor rules and more particular for the u.s. harmonizing the rules that govern intellectual property. in the words of one expert in the area this is an attempt to create a new trade rule book for the coming decades if not the

century and it aims both at to achieve job creation and growth much more interesting we went to the european commission are responsible for trade called the tipping point strategy in a way that a number of like-minded countries together that constitute an important part of the world trade and that people of these rules in a way to compound others that come on board if they want to benefit from the more open and liberalized market. the younger secretary of state also made reference is deluding to ttip as the notion that if the u.s. is strong the e.u. is going to be stronger to the if the e.u. is strong, the u.s. is

we'd be larger d to a stronger -- stronger at large and that reminds me of the period immediately after the second world war. let's say a few words about where turkey stands pat what these days. i think that it has gone through a massive economic transformation. we also had an even in the spring that looks at the phenomenon here at the brookings. in 1975 when i was still a jr student at the university and at stumble, turkey's foreign trade was just a mere $6 trillion. in 2012 last year, this has gone up to $390 billion. a huge change and maybe the best way of capturing what otherwise

statistics. back in 1975, the foreign trade corresponded to just about 9% of the gdp. today it corresponds to 50% of turkey's's gdp. and i think that this should give you a rough idea of the significance of the foreign trade as far as the contemporary and recent economic performance is. what is the background? the customs union is very critical that came into the operation in 1996. and in terms of ttip, what is significant here is that turkey has incorporated 55% of the european union rules that govern the market. so you could say that for all intensive purposes, that turkey is part of the internal market. even though its leg european

union's place in turkey's the five over all foreign trade has fallen from 47, 49% in the late 1990's, early 2000 to about 38% today. the e.u. is still the largest partner in turkey as far as foreign trade goes. and in the interviews i made i came to realize how the business is in turkey are trying to priority to what they call the 1-1.5% profit they will make with the business in the european union to 80 were 100% profit elsewhere in the world. most of the foreign investment that comes to turkey of around 75% comes from the european union, and about 65% of turkish investment abroad goes to the european union as well.

this is also a period during which turkey's engagement with the neighborhood and the economic terms increased significantly. this is of important implications for the ttip degette i won't go into the details for the benefit of time. third, for all of the criticism that we may direct to the turkish government, the prime minister as well as the foreign minister by the lead to thousand's, they had a clear vision about what they wanted to achieve in the least in terms of economic and regional integration and liberalization. he had a middle east where it would be a bit like in europe the free movement of goods and people from the most eastern city to the atlantic ocean. however, that as you are all aware has turned sour. last, with obama coming to power

and then his famous visit at an early stage of his last term, the model partnership with the launch one of its important legs being improving economic relations and in that context, the framework for economic and commercial cooperation was set up. against this background what is at stake? and this is the impact of a study of what the impact of ttip will be on the countries participating in ttip and on third countries that come up. these are still at the preliminary stage. there are some more substantial of ones that are in the pipeline and whose results are expected about the end of this year.

ttip will impact differently of course whether review are a part of it or outside of it. but when you look at these studies, and i must admit some of the studies are being challenged and questioned but that is what is at the moment available. this is going to be one of the movers. it is almost cut and dry. and the loss is going to correspond to roughly $20 billion. and that is about the trade that occurs between turkey bilaterally or occurred in 2012 between turkey and the united states. this is not surprising. it has a lot to do with of the customs union and the way in which the customs union has been

formulated. i believe we will be reflecting on that. what happens with the customs union is that each time the european finds a free trade agreement with a third country, it automatically blindness turkey which means that turkey has to lower its customs tariffs and open up its markets to this third country where everett mabey and in the case of ttip, it would be the united states whereas the third country is not obligated to open up its markets. instead, turkey has to engage this third country in an effort to negotiate its parallel treaty. i realize to some of you this might be a funny deal but we can always go back into the details of it. this arrangement had been no occasion to look couple of years

ago because most of the free trade agreements that turkey had signed -- that the e.u. had signed or the ones with relatively smaller economies. however as the e.u. began to engage bigger economies and turkey began to have difficulties in persuading these countries to come to the negotiating table ranging from algeria, mexico, south africa and more recently the e.u. started negotiations with india, japan and a number of other important countries, alarm bells began to rain in turkey with respect to this particular arrangement of the customs union what does that mean if ttip comes into effect in terms of the u.s. and turkish relations? first of all, turkey browns in an $8.5 billion trade deficit with the right united states.

it means that trade deficit is going to increase because american companies are doing to have a free access to the turkish markets while the turkish companies would remain and continue to face similar restrictions. furthermore, ttip is going to lead to trade diversion that is the turkish companies are going to find that there are for example european companies as a result of ttip but also south koreans as a result the u.s. pretreat agreement and then members of ttp that they will access the u.s. markets and the turkish companies are going to be squeezed out. so the outcome is greater trade deficit for turkey. madeleine albright and stephen

hadley last year with the council of foreign relations published a very interesting and rich report on the turkish american relations and the plaintive note that this is the kind of problems the would fuel the already high levels of anti-americanism in turkey. one study that i made reference to has actually calculated that turkey would be losing 95,000 places of employment as a result of ttip and you may challenge those statistics but it does suggest that it could lead to unemployment while generating employment in the early e.u. and in the u.s.. a similar outcomes would be observed in the case of turkey's relations, trade relations with the european union. turkey runs a large deficit and that will continue to expand.

american companies will compete and have a better deal in competing against turkish companies as well as the companies of countries with which the e.u. has been finding these free trade agreements. hence it is no wonder that we have ministers i will choose not to name these ministers who have been using on a fortunately somewhat denigrating language toward the european union. and i think this is pretty much a function of this frustration and a grievance that has been felt for the with the customs union is operating and the way that the e.u. is responding to these grievances to such an extent that i'm sure you've heard the prime minister back in january revealing a tv program he would like to take turkey out

of the european union into the corporation organization. i call that our prime minister having a mood of life. what turkey actually leave the european union? it is very doubtful however their grievances are there and they are getting larger and larger and more intense. what is the cost to the e.u. and the u.s. of these? leaving a turkey outside of ttip or some similar arrangement is going to make it very difficult for turkey to maintain its growth rate that has attracted so much attention and praise internationally pity he would mean the loss of jobs but also for a the neighborhood for the

reasons i cited early on that the neighborhood has a growing part in turkey's economy and foreign trade. migration would increase. turkey compared to 20 years ago has moved from integration to immigration. people from the neighborhood are coming to turkey and would be giving mostly elsewhere toward the european union. i doubt if i would be wrong if i also say that there runs the risk of turkey being less stable and space. inclusion of turkey is the other side of the medallion and i need not stress how the mechanisms would work and the other direction. what can be done in this respect there are a number of scenarios that can be followed. the one that the government turkish bureaucracy in the

business world throughout the degree, march, april and may pushed very hard was the inclusion of turkey into the ttip negotiations themselves. however that didn't materialize and the would-be unrealistic to expect turkey would be invited to the negotiating table for the string of reasons that we could go back in the q&a session. the best that turkey was able to obstruct from the e hill and the u.s. was the promise to be informed about ttip negotiations and where they are getting it. and as you might imagine the world in the e.u. doesn't carry as much credibility. the second idea that has been promulgated is this notion that

ttip if it gets to that stage could be concluded in such a manner those countries that have customs unions with the european union or who are negotiating for full membership could be admitted or the door would be kept open. however that is at a high likely avenue that will materialize. the material that has been advocated in the context called docking the idea that you reach an agreement that leaves the door open to the third countries that want to join these partnerships in a way applies for membership we would see if this would be the case however

we have to bear in mind that if it were made, turkey's membership would still have to go through the congressional unity e.u. approval process and imagine if that field and what membership negotiations have turned in to the grievances and the negative attitudes that degenerate the referenced of the report that i made reference to came up in this idea and caulkett interestingly the turkish american partnership.

however, that idea could not be pursued because of the way in which the customs union works the other way around that turkey cannot negotiate the agreement with a third country unless that country has a free trade agreement with the european union. so because the u.s. didn't have such an agreement with of the e.u., this idea of albright and had lee couldn't really be put into practice even if there was the political will behind it. the idea of a u.s. turkey sta was brought up by the prime minister when he came to visit washington, d.c. and having also been brought up by his stick to the prime minister. however it doesn't seem to have gained much traction in the u.s. for the string of reasons

stretching from the very fact that the u.s. trade representatives have a heavy agenda in front of them and then i also heard the excuses of turkey's democracy problems being brought up as well as congressional politics. but turkey has from the american side so far is what a disappointed diplomat called yet another committee. and this committee that has been set up has been set up at least at the cabinet level, the ministers of the economy that is the u. str as well as the turkish counterpart will be engaged. i am somewhat optimistic because i see that turkish officials, the bureaucrats at least on the ministry of the economy's slide being optimistic about as they

consider this an avenue that could eventually lead to a high level working group set up when the e.u. and the u.s. first embarked on the past of ttip. what is critical in the last scenario is that there should be a bottom-up pressure building up especially from the american side and the american businesses to raise my concluding remarks before i turn the floor to you, turkey in the last couple of decades has indeed massively transformed. it is the size of its economy corresponds to the sixth largest economy in the european union. and if you end of russia it makes it the seventh largest in europe and 17 in the world.

but what from my point of view is much more important when one talks about turkey's engagement in ttip is when you exclude the neighborhood and i also mean the country's across from the black sea is turkey's gdp response to the total of all the other countries excluding russia and iran. that is significant when turkey engages these countries economically as well. so one needs to bear this in mind as well. turkey's power and economic performance have received a lot of praise. but this had been changing real fast in the last year or so. and turkey's commitment to the transatlantic alliance or community is increasingly being

questioned as well. and this would be one way in which this could be regenerated and it could also besides bringing economic benefits to the e.u. in terms of jobs and growth to the united states in terms of jobs and growth, to turkey in terms of jobs and growth but also to the neighborhood to every single country in the area stretching from armenia all the way it down with the neighborhood itself. and there i would like to conclude with of the remarks of suzanne who reflected on ttip earlier in the year arguing that the ttip if successful would be a mechanism that is going to help the trans-atlantic form of governments around the world

compared to the alternative one. they are struggling which way it goes and it is going to be very critical in terms of which form of governance prevails in the neighborhood and beyond and for turkey it would be very critical if our premise you're really believes that he wants to see turkey as the tenth largest economy in 2023. he's going to take me apart now. there you go. [applause] >> i would agree with him in one of two areas and i want to congratulate him for having paid a very good a comprehensive

balance the point that happens to be a good read so i certainly recommend that you carefully examined. let me say as a promise the agreement should be looked at as a two dimensional chess at the top lawyer and the less important is the bottom layer and the more important is the politics. and the trade arrangements are very much motivated by politics. just about anyone with geostrategic considerations any one of them that you want to consider. but i like to keep some subornation between the political discussion and the

economic discussion. since i am an economist i am going to focus on the economic implications of the current set up for turkey. and i will listen obligingly to those who will correct me from the political dimension, which i recognize is very important. i basically take the view that the current arrangement of the customs union with the european union is a very costly and arrangement for turkey and one that has become increasingly more costly. i would advocate on the economic grounds that the arrangement would be reconfigured into a free trade arrangement enabling turkey to negotiate with third

parties and putting the united states. and i believe that one can be very much favorable to turkey eventually joining the european union but be against the current set up of the customs union. let me -- that is the main point that i want to make. let me give you three arguments to support that point. first is that the world has changed. the global environment has become a lot less for the customs union than turkey has with of the european union as configured. not only of course of the prospects for the recession damned into the indefinite future may be made a lot more problematic by the enormous problems and challenges that the e.u. faces internally in its own

crisis and the difficulties, the public will developments in turkey are well known. not only have those prospect received the indefinite future but perhaps as important as the development is that we have a completely changing picture of world trade. so in my book juggernaut i look forward 15 or 25, 30 years. you can take all of that with a pinch of salt accept a lot of what i've already talking of that is happening to the and 25, 30 years from now six of the seven largest economies in the world will be developing countries. the european countries will be a part of that select group.

only the united states will be among them. the rising power in 2020 that today represent about a foot world trade or 35% would represent something like 70% of world trade within a generation. just as important is the fact that these are the countries where the biggest trade barriers exist today trade barriers in the world are not in the united states or germany. the highest trade barriers are in india, brazil to a lesser degree they are in china and they are in a number of others developing countries. so those are the objects of trade policy for the future. that's where the big and growing

markets are and where the barriers have to come down and have been going down and this is reflected in the major direction that trade in the direction of these economies including in the case of turkey by the way. there is a share of exports going to the european union that has fallen into a course of the last 15, 20 years. and the share going to the united states has also been declining over the last 15 to 20 years. the growth markets were in the developing world. these economies -- and of course i'm talking up the exception these economies are excluded.

even if turkey was a part of it it wouldn't actually affect its capacity in a significant way to improve its expert performance towards. second, that's one argument, the second argument is as has already been pointed out the establishment of ttip and to man extent of the establishment of ttip, not the establishment of the negotiation and eventual success which may or may not have them can significantly raise the cost for turkey of the customs union arrangement and affect the incentives on the e.u. and the united states to correct this problem.

so somebody that is full of the trade negotiations for some time and i empathize with what kemal was saying. but the idea that you go to the u.s. congress and basically say to them we need to lower the barriers for turkey to export to us and has a love of unskilled labor and as competitive, etc. and then they ask what are we getting in return and they say we get nothing in return because we got everything already through the negotiation in the european union that doesn't work politically so the incentives for the united states are not there to make an arrangement

with turkey if ttip succeeds in a similar the incentives for the e.u. to change this arrangement are completely absent in fact they negotiated some of which i know personally and i could very happily go and give away access to the fast growing turkish market without actually demanding anything in return from the americans or turkey just demanding things in turn for themselves. so this is like a trade negotiators dream to people to do that. so it is a win-win for the united states and the european union to maintain the status quo on dhaka customs union with turkey and the negotiating process.

meanwhile, as kemal mentioned they suffer the demotion of preferences in the e.u. and create a diversion in the united states. the same apply if there's progress on the government procurement and access in the united states and potentially in the european union as well. the regulation negotiations are less problematic with turkey because shifting regulation by definition for the most part can not be discriminatory so it would be a choice whether they want to adopt the regulations were not and they might actually benefit from doing so. another important element is that the ttp and ttip are going to cause a big push globally towards the competitive

liberalization pivoted the countries that are left out, and there is a large number of them and they are important countries are going to feel a lot of pressure to themselves and not just turkey this feeling of this pressure but they are going to feel the pressure to enter into a trade agreement with the european union and with the united states and with each other. now they can do that so long as they get agreement from the european union and the european union is not negotiating with the european union isn't going to get that approval except in marginal places. and once of the negotiations are embarked upon in the european union there is very little negotiation just as was discussed for the united states and the same apply for india and the same apply for brazil its

letter, etc. appearance of turkey is stock in this changing world in terms of a very important part of its policy which is trade policy. a sufferer of and the fourth point i want to make in support of the idea of the customs union arrangement has become dysfunctional and can be improved upon by moving towards a free trade arrangement is mexico an interesting example for the income and back in 1994, two years before they sign that the customs union with the european union back in 1994,

mexico negotiated the nafta free trade agreement with the united states and canada, which as a free trade agreement does makes it completely free to negotiate with third parties. well mexico didn't do this from the point of view of trade. in fact if you look at the intensity of mexico, mexico's trade has grown relative to the gdp much faster than that of turkey and that of other comparable countries like brazil, for example. so, mexico shows that you can get a very large trade by you don't have to have a customs

union. mexico was also able to negotiate a large number of the regional trading arrangements. turkey also negotiated some. the call the u.s.-mexico's free trade agreement is much better than that of turkey because mexico had been able to negotiate an agreement in the european union, where has turkey has not negotiated an agreement with i united states. mexico also negotiated agreements with nafta and the pacific alliance and now with the ttp they are negotiating a free trade agreement with japan and negotiating a number of other very large trade agreements. one of the effects of this is that mexico can probably be

better integrated into the global value chains, these global networks of productions that have arisen both the last several decades. in part because you not only have access to the u.s. market and the canadian market but people see mexico as a base you can operate all over the world and in port easily from all over the world as well. i think mexico has been helped in that way. mexico didn't do as well in growth but it is much better on the economic stability and balance of payments. and ironically since a big objective of the customs union is to create closer links with

europe. if you look at the remittances which of course depend on migration of the remittances have come down hugely in recent years and they are now a small feature. but the remittances and mexico is not a part of that political arrangement so to speak with the united states. the remittances of mexico are a very important feature of the economy. that is what i wanted to say. i wanted to challenge a little bit of the conventional wisdom of what i associate in the secular middle class and turkey with whom i share many sympathies and i am a big believer in the european union and in the need for turkey over

time to move in that direction. another thing i wanted to bring out whether the cost which are very significant costs of the current trade of arrangement and inject a note of realism about what can be done in particular with regard to convincing the united states to take a different tact. thank you. [applause] >> we may be having a technical problem. we don't have any microphones. >> i think i should quickly respond to your earlier remarks and then let's open up the discussion to the floor we have

clearly set up as the saying goes the notion of questioning the customs union and replacing it with a free trade agreement. however, this is an issue that has come up in turkey and has been the date it not as extensively as we might have edify used or would want to see it take place. the challenge here i think is the appraisal of the fact that it takes an economic treaty were invented perspective whereas when you look at the customs union and turkey's relations in the european union the political dimension is very critical and this is why i think i chose to put that in the effort to take a short cut.

as i listened to you i tried to say what would be the most clever way of responding to this. i couldn't help, and i mean no offense, if after all the other mexico is not a very good example to choose to question the significance of the customs union for turkey. as far as the trade relations go all the very quickly in brackets i would like to point out that as the trade experts -- i am not a trade expert -- have to look at the fact that some of the countries including mexico and self korea and now when putting

japan and some other countries who could keep the cake and eat it at the same time with turkey are picking and yelling coming to the negotiating table. the president was in turkey not long ago and was looking like the although the turkish side had been fighting for more than a decade to drag mexico to the negotiating table, there was recently a green light that began to flicker on the mexican side. the same thing is happening on the japanese side. however, i am not experienced enough to be able to speculate on what might be happening there and something interesting may be unfolding. when i look at mexico -- and i'm

not an expert. i only look at mexico through the "washington post" and what is debated here. although the party has been having serious problems in the last couple of months with respect to the performance of its democracy at least there isn't the kind of instability that rains in on the northern part of mexico border in the united states when it comes to drug trafficking and kidnapping of people and smuggling. i'm just wondering whether we may be able to have a relationship there between the free trade agreement and an agreement like the customs union of which should be coming with a political package or was coming with a political package.

in the case of mexico in some ways i'm wondering whether the high level of the remittances is not also a reflection that the mexican economy is not performing a level that it should to be able to employ its own people. the turkish economy relied because in the 60's and 70's and partly in the 80's, too, the turkish people had to go to europe to be given to live and then ship the remittances to turkey whereas these days we will see how it is going to last. these days the turkish labour stays in the country or goes into the neighborhood with turkish companies to work on the construction projects etc..

and again here at this time if they would allow us i would be able to establish a link between the customs union and this particular development. my last response to do is i do agree that there is a major transformation that is taking place. however, when i look at turkey and i look at turkey has directly into the way in which how from my point of view and you can turn around and point a finger at me as a member of the secular middle class elite ice-t major historical connection that has been there for centuries. and one cannot just wash one's hand as of this and it bares down on turkey. and when i talked to the business people including

business people but not directly be associated with what you call the secular middle class, they do give importance to the rule of law and to the transparency and accountability. and the last two months since the events and the way in which the government is hard on some of the big businesses is in turkey and the malaise is had been coming out from those business circles, too. if i think and turkey in the successful business circles there is a craving for the rules of law for a level field. and as far as i can see from the time being, that level playing field and the rule lovelock is closely associated in the european union and i see this at

a time when the link to the european union is weakening as the vehicle that could reinvigorate the privacy of the law. but this is also from a personal perspective. let's turn to the floor and start taking some questions and remarks and comments and let me remind you of the customs here talking accustoms union and to mention your name you are associated with and be reminded that there may be others who want to ask questions. yes, sir. >> [inaudible] >> washington correspondent for

the euro politics kinnegad i was interested in what you and pact and the consequences of the union having worked out seemingly a bad deal for turkey the way the trade patterns have developed. how serious are turkey's ruling class about renegotiating or just pulling out of the customs union and what would be the political consequences of turkey with drilling from the customs union? >> let's take the second in the third question. right next to you there. >> thank you very much for the presentation my name is [inaudible] i have two questions. one is japan is proceeding the study with turkey but also as

you mentioned we've started a negotiation between the e.u.. so what do you wish to happen in the negotiation? i hope for the u.s.. second, i heard the country is willing to join an attack against syria if it happens. will it and how is the economic partnership between the u.s. and turkey? >> there was one more in the front and then we will come back. [inaudible] >> the first question was -- >> you may be able to give a

more balanced objective of the response and i can give the more ys1 -- bias one. ..

>> nevertheless i retain my point of the arguments are very strong. there was the second part but i don't remember. >> the political consequences. >> it is not clear to me the political consequences would be that significant in that context. it is not like anybody says that turkey would secede to the european union in 20 years. number two, as i said, i think it is a sweet deal for the european union.

turkey is unwittingly because this is to be a temporary arrangement into a very difficult quarter the european union has turkey in its back pocket it cannot give away the market without asking anything in return. so turkey pulling out technically could improve the negotiating position with the succession of the european union long term because they could say over the next 10 or 50 years we will join the customs union it you will get the benefit of a bigger area in which when you conduct your

international trade negotiations right now they have those benefits but none of the cost. >> thank you. i partially agree with his remarks but i should mention that we have entered the period in turkey where the customs union issue in the grievances with concerning the broader relationship is growing. in through the grapevine we hear the world bank has been commissioned to study the customs union and we have to see the report but once it comes out this debate might liven up.

i do think it is very much functional from past dependency. for some, that might go back to 1959 when together with greece and turkey applied to the european a economy community to have an association relationship that culminated in the 1963 treaty that is being celebrated in this year. that treaty, you mention you made the important point how the international treaties compete with each other and and doing them is a very difficult exercise. so with those two sides

follows a certain path and then in the mid 1990's to remember the context as well it was seen as a critical step towards turkey's eventual membership of the european union they had changed significantly i think there are those that recognizes those from that relationship and a steel increasingly my personal prison -- opinion there will be a move to the improving the customs union rather than replacing it with a new rearrangements.

but we sighted it could be easier exercise a and tearing it apart and throwing it away in the context of domestic politics would really put the cat among the pigeon. turkey is already a polarized society i can't imagine how all clients would re-read into such an exercise the same could be said about the e.u. with the european union for the public opinion by a barge but when ewing gauge business cycles and some government and half of the civil society the path is different that it is not content to try one

observation with like to make even though uri did i mention the trade with european union in turkey over all the trade has been proportionally solely the trade continues to grow and i have looked at the statistics for the first seven months of this year in an end trade with the repeated union has been increasing at a time when it has shrunk so much -- some what seven countries it is increasing and others it is collapsing. the e.u. is there and i like the remarks about this we deal it in that back pocket it still remains an important market for

businesses that may come from a secular tradition or one much closer to the value of those current government the point about to pay a bsn also just found out that turkey in japan has agreed it has to be accepted on the japanese side with that, a report for the free-trade agreement said negotiations will start today suspect if things come to the point that they have that these negotiations will actually take place. the city at issue on its own all i can say is the crisis

in syria is impacting politically and turkey's trade with the of the least the way it is unfolding it is the turkish government's response to the egyptian crisis is unfolding may further undermine turkey's economy relations those that made it quite clear with the outcome. i listened to the deputy prime minister yesterday when he came down from the cabinet meeting. i think even though some of it -- and members of the government including the prime minister will have

some kind of intervention in the middle east door beyond just punishing for chemical weapons it does not look like turkey will do it on its own. not to mention the political one. we have a little bit more time. >> i admit then trade counselor here we go each other but to make a small comment the only thing i would say here is what has been the case as with other trading partners reid

negotiate with is with turkey entering into the negotiating carter's i believe it worked in the case of korea soon after our agreement you may want to talk about that and the way they work so from date number one that seeing this would take time but then to conduct the negotiations that is just a clarification but i have a question steering away from carr jerseys of the best path the with the u.s. free trade agreement to what extent do you feel all turkey is ready

for a deep and comprehensive free trade agreement? so looking at the regulatory aspect and with those measures to what extent are there issues for turkey with a large part of the business community? thank you. >> i ever of the american and turkish counsel. i am trying to think of ways in which turkey might be able to think out of the box that perhaps are there provisions that you know, of that if turkey were to strengthen the ties to mexico it could somehow

access in to the american market because of a third-party intervention over perhaps helping turkey not necessarily weed itself off but just beyond the conventional means the zero some way of thinking of this issue? >> we may be able to have a question that we're right out of type. >> 8q for the report. i think the discussion is different from turkey. from the turkish point of view the cooperation between turkey and the united states

is political of both parts and i think there is support for that and the customs you did this some day that is the constructed a and served its purpose with the european union. so maybe the corporation between turkey didn't see it as challenges? >> uri could you answer that question? >> i have not looked at the deal and i suppose i should

have to prepare for this but my point should that be seen as you could not negotiate with countries that already negotiated with the european union. but it is the quality of the group agreement why would the united states the part worth repeating is why would the united states on economic grounds or political and security issues those may overwhelm everything but bonnie the economic grounds on a

congress that is very hard nosed why should they deal with the united states when it has full access to the turkish market? what does the united states have to give turkey access? it is a question end of the quality of the agreement but not whether it can be depreciated ensure there are issues that are regulatory, etc., etc. that are very specific and country specific now with the province of free -- free trade but those that the country level that could be included.

there was the second part to the question? >> the extent that turkey may be ready? >> my sense my reading that turkey has done a lot already in terms of taking on the competition policy with the statistics of very large part of the e.u. model. and to define that. my guess is they would be ready to go with the additional mile. >> you have seen an example

how the european union can sweet talk but let me make a couple of very quick observations i think the reason why mexico, the japan , korea to use the light of thinking in the irrational way in the sense that they have this access to the turkish market but they are with the of free trade agreement it is a puzzle inveigled to your question may come out of

such a steady but i can only speculate i would like to give some credit i think they put pressure on it but the second half that is relatable to the first one is the fact of the important economy with this a and beyond as well what i was listening to his point why on earth should the congress with the security reasons be that as it may lie with the cars be interested? i think because not only the of the investments that come to the united states from the turkish company i

recognize this will not make of major impact on the hugh g. economy like the united states but it may well make a difference when it comes to the locality around the you did so the politics of that, the second to what i made reference to that was set up has been working very hard to encourage the two sides together so there are american companies that clearly see they can work in the neighborhood and that translates itself back into employment of the united states.

we need to look at two factors there the way in which in the beginning to attract attention with the impact on the players their calculating and the way in which political and security put its way it as well by last remark is that if the turkish economy has come to where it is to impact on the players calculus' you could challenge me and we will see what the report will say. it is the function of the

customs union and the fact they have incorporated the you legislation and by doing that it made the production more competitive it more interesting to the third countries also. even african countries that our trading with turkey when they are importing from turkey for what we are importing up to the standards of the european -- your opinion that led to be shortchanged in the way so that contribution needs to be recognized. one last remark is i need to be fair. the grievances that come from the u.s. side in the fact they have grievances to

turkey as far as the functioning of the customs union and i think it makes the european union think twice that they have turkey in that back pocket to address these differences they have to come to the negotiating table and address turkey's grievances also. i believe there are internal forces within the european union seeking such negotiations there so we need to look it that aspect of that relationship. i believe we have run out of time yes it is what they call swiss timing. [laughter] i would like to thank you on

behalf of the project at the foreign policy from brookings and also for having participating in the my reports pour in reflecting on it.

>> host: clarence jones i feel so absolutely blessed to be here with you because search team to try to catch up with you to get a better understanding of dr. king's life you spend a solid eight years with him and went with taylor branch's david j. new and site you i felt i want to catch up with him i was never successful but it someone else try to catch up with you at that time was dr. king. there is a very refitting section to talk about the first encounter you had the opportunity.

>> guest: just quickly i am delighted to be here and have this opportunity to talk to agree to have mutual friends in common by your question brings me back at february, 1960, a 20 years old, i was just seven months out of law school i get a call from the judges and law period the eric city he had known me and had written a letter of recommendation and he called me and said ibm the chief defense counsel to defend this dr. king from montgomery alabama that has been indicted on perjury on

this date income-tax richard we had others so he talked to me about the case if he said we'd need a law clerk that will do the research. today, a law clerk if you look for a justice of the supreme court. but geographically, it was montgomery alabama. but so i listen to and they said i will really to help you or do anything i can or research. they said no. you have to come here and he

i said i am starting a law career he said that is why i called you. with every were doing and not trying to denigrate but this would be good experience. i said i am sorry i just can do it did was very difficult to say no. it was really difficult. then was on a thursday night. on friday morning i get another call and i did that knowing that the time he has a speaking engagement and i told him he should try to see when he gets there. . .

>> i've been talking about for a while. my wife is now deceased. she had beautiful plants all through the house. >> she would get along famously with my wife. and by the way, just to put this into context, this is 1960 the supreme court in 1957, between 1957 in 1960. as we were headed down a decision. and he was on the cover of time magazine. [laughter] >> so it was a common vernacular

that he was considered a celebrity. and my wife reacted to him. you would've thought that moses, jesus christ, michael jackson, everybody, everything you can think of rolled into one had rolled in. she was just so -- you know, she was just cooking and so forth for him. and he sits down and he gets right to the point. he says, you know, there were lots of lawyers in the south.

he said that what we need for young negro professionals. and she said that he was spoken so highly about. i would hope he would help me in this case. and he described what he was doing and they said, well, you know, i was an only child. >> were you born in philadelphia? >> yes, philadelphia, pennsylvania. and i was born january 8, 1941. they worked as domestic

servants. and i had this recollection and the families were friends of my parents, and looking back with, you know, it was important. >> they put me in a catholic boarding school. then i went to public school. i told him that my mother died when i was a junior in the columbia college and i was only 19 years old at the time. >> i said that i would do anything here that i can.

no cell phones, no blackberries, fact, when he wanted to get something urgent, you spend something important. must you had a special courier service. >> yes, my wife turns to me and she says to me, were you doing? we doing that's so important that you cannot help this man became all this distance to see you and ask for your help. and i said, that is not quite accurate. even come on assistance to me. see me. he was having speaking engagements in california anyway. but he did not make this

decision. and then she said, well, -- you know, she pushed me. and i do remember saying that just because this guy got his hand caught in the cookie jar, that's not my problem. and she looked at me and said, i don't believe you. and she was angry at me. i said that was the way that i feel. and then it's like, you know, we lived in relative domestic tranquility. and the stranger comes to my house and in a matter of two hours, get my wife angry at me. so you know, have a hostile attitude. suck it up the phone and they

say, mr. jones, and i say yes, and they say mr. jones, you know, mr. jones, doctor king enjoyed so much his visit with you. he forgot to tell you that he wanted to come. he is preaching in los angeles on sunday. and i listened. and i put on the information in the phone was on the wall in the kitchen. my wife was standing there. and i just turned to her and said, she turned to me again. she said that you may not be going to montgomery, alabama, but you are going to the church. and i said that that was an

invitation for both of us. so i ended up going to church. >> baldwin hills in 1960, as you know, california is the community. >> absolutely. >> for the blacks could move to bel air. especially if you have any money. a minimum of 1500, maybe even more.

and doctor king introduces. he said, ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters. the text of my sermon today is the role and responsibility of the evo professional in aiding our unfortunate brothers and sisters struggling for their freedom. so i thought to myself, this is one smart dude. because he came to the right church in the right place to deliver his message. i have never heard him speak before. i had seen him come but never heard him speak before. and so he began to speak in greater detail -- it was such a

passionate description. and then he pauses and i am sitting one third towards the front. and he says, for example, every young man sitting in the church together, my friends in new york, who i respect. they come in to this young man has been touched by the lord. they tell me that this man has been touched by jesus. but when he goes into the law library, that they go all the way back to the time of 1066.

and then when this young man writes it down, they tell me that the words are so compelling they just jump off the page. so i'm thinking to myself, i absolutely do not have the slightest thought that he is talking about me. and i'm thinking to myself, i know that starting out as a young person -- i know when the church service is over. and when it's over, i want to meet this individual. i think you could help me get ahead. and then he continues on. it's a had a chance to visit and i said oh, lord. you know, and he begins to tell

the church things which i told him about myself, it was confidential. have you ever heard the song killing me softly with your son? >> yes. >> is killing me softly stories that i had given him about my life. >> and then he quoted this poem and he sort of changed it a little by putting another into position of the woman from the force. and then he used this point, like so many of you sitting in this audience today.

many work in a white folks house. and i began to put my mother was in the context of the langston hughes poem. >> so as i said, he was like a celebrity. and as i am walking, he looks at me and he looked like a cheshire cat. and he said camino, and never mentioned your name. and i said, you know, you have to understand that we sometimes have to make an example to make

our point. and i extended my hand to him and i said, doctor king, when he wanted to go to montgomery, alabama. and actually i think about what martin said about me. it changed my life. >> so, you know, you think about this. in the case is that it happened in may of 1960. and he was acquitted. that was the year that he was

acquitted. and you know, these two tax attorneys in chicago, one had been part of the internal revenue service attorney. the other one had been a tax examiner and they destroyed this. it was clear to me that the only way that those 12 white people could come back and make a conviction, i'm sure they must've said that we cannot convict us because we would look like fools. racism may be something. but they had just destroyed the governments case. they would look like fools. it was amazing. i do not think that, you know,

as you know from 1954 when charles hamilton and thurgood marshall and those guys, to such brilliantlawyers. and it was just such a discussion. johnnie cochran. >> what happened in terms of the transition from being his attorney being his confidant that the speeches and everything? >> well, ended up, first of all -- there is a person named stanley levitan. should americans really know who he is?

well, they will know. i dedicated this book to stanley. now, why did i do that? well, stanley met him in the late 1950s and he was an independent -- and apparently wealthy, not extremely wealthy, but a real estate attorney. and he developed a bond with martin luther king. initially in terms of fund-raising. stanley had this art of writing appeal letters. virtually all of the appeals, letter soliciting money under martin luther king's name.

and so when i became very good friends. you see, i moved to riverdale in late 1961. and i immediately begin working with the guy that was one of the top labor leaders. particularly with stanley. but the de facto northern office, which was the

fund-raising arm of god. both jack and stanley had organized this and they were members of the communist party. stanley and his brother, his identical twin, were members of the party up until 1956, i believe. this i know, and they broke with the party. and i mean, i have often thought the civil rights movement and the relationship with martin luther king became a substitute for stanley. and martin king became what the

communist party had been to -- devoted to, he devoted most of his non-professional working time through martin. they developed a close working relationship. too close for some people. oh, yes. as a result, i began to work jointly with him. in fact, a large part of the credibility, other than that but i earned, large car was was consistently -- even when i wasn't around, he would consistently report me as one of the people he could most trusts

and one of the people that was most essential to him. the martin began to look at me and stanley together. look at me as his right hand. stanley was over me, but we worked together. there became a time in june of 1963 when martin is having a sore right views at the white house and john kennedy worked with him privately in the rose garden. and we have some information of the high-ranking people, two of them were communist and one of them was a soviet agent that was espied. so they said jack o'dell.

and jack o'dell -- when he had appeared before one of the committee is, the difference between jack and stanley in the relationship is that stanley had told martin he had been a member and he had severed his relationship with him. jack never told martin and it never became an issue. but he never told him. so that when president kennedy revealed it, i don't know exactly what martin said in a conversation. the president said i told him and i knew he was surprised about jack o'dell. but he said that he had to go. in fact, used this analogy at

that time. it is a scandal with the government. and he said he will bring us down because you have to get ready. so, you know, the very next day -- martin comes to new york. and we are having a one-on-one discussion. one of the most amazing things -- he said that it was a part of this. and he said, do you think he is a communist. and i said no, i do not. but he said i wonder do you think that he would rejoin the party. and i said, stanley has an

identical twin, but he doesn't have two bodies. and he chuckled. and he said aside from his wife, he spends most of his time with me. and we can in turn one is not his office, he is on the phone with me. so i'm not what kind of shirt of what he could be. he would have to be between 1:00 a.m. in the morning and 6:00 a.m. in the morning. this is not possible. but the time, buut i didn't know it at e time, but this is why the fbi thing was so vicious. but they say that after they had broken with the party, and asked

them if they would be double agents. he wanted them to resume this party membership. i often wondered whether they were angry at stanley because he turned them down and he wanted to continue to paint him as a communist. >> this is an interesting point. and obviously wiretapping and surveillance, stuff like that with emotion at that point. july 13, 1963, until december. every telephone call. between martin luther king jr. and chris jones, between clans

jones and family and stanley and martin luther king jr. every phone call was wiretapped in the conversations were transcribed. additionally in respect to clarence jones, every meeting we attended together, every place we agreed to meet, photographing it for surveillance, martin comes to just in this way. in fact, i said, you know, i was thinking that i love martinis. during that. next time, when i began to have

suspicions, we have conference calls. the martin would double up at like 11:00 o'clock at night. so before it starts, i would say, hold on, now. i make sure that you get everything down. because this is going to be a long time. and he was like, you know, i really believe this. let me just say that we can move on. i believe that stanley levinson, this jewish lawyer, and any other context when you look at the magnitude of the contributions, he would be given

nation's highest medal of honor. he would be a white house armory. no question. >> he died in 1979? >> yes. >> so i think that the movement -- personally think that the civil rights movement, the history of the civil rights movement in relation to him, he has not gotten his proper due. >> i think that this would be an effort to rebalance history and so i have decided that if no one else, i'm going to tell the story whenever i can dedicate this book. >> it has taken 47 years to get around to this particular book. one hesitation, what made you decide that i have to go ahead

and do this book? >> well, the original with respect to what would martin say, i was concerned about some of the king family, particularly corunna, who after martin's death, i just didn't see things the same in the way that she saw them in relationships to martin in the assassination. so i felt that i could speak more freely. i think we got tired. i just got tired of black-and-white appropriating his words and speeches for their

own. i couldn't believe that glenn beck was going to hold a rally on the same day and do it within the context of the i have a dream speech. now, martin luther king doesn't belong to me. he is an american icon. but if you're going to associate yourself with him, or seek to claim part of this, it would be within the context of truth and accuracy. okay? i got so tired of having all of these opponents of affirmative

action time after time. saying that i'm opposed because i stand with doctor king. and i want my children to be judged in the content of character and not by the color of their skin. so doctor king would be opposed if it was wrong, absolutely wrong. he was one of the earliest proponents of affirmative action. he understood the need, an he understood the need, and he included this at the university. and he was giving the commencement address, he said that you cannot take a person and that we are going to put him at the same position of the starting line, that is unfair. and there are people who can't. now, i do think, and i have come

to my own conclusions that race no longer be an appropriate limit. to the extent that this is going to be affirmative action on an economic base. another words, what i'm saying to you that the poor white person from appalachia may be entitled as a poor african-american hispanic person. you know, people understand that's. >> i think it is a beautiful analogy in terms of a metaphor. lightning in a bottle the lightning in a bottle the speech. so you come up there, you are working on the speech together. so it is finished and

everything. >> we do not work on the speech as a finished entity. while we were gone was ideas. we worked on content and thinks it should be interesting. even considering the way would be appropriate to express this idea. but ultimately i read things. and it's not always accurate. that is an overstatement. every speech that clarence johnson contributed to, they were the speeches of clarence

jones. material, which i am pleased to have contributed for him to refer to and include in his final separation, i am proud that he included it. but once he did, i want to make that very clear. the whole institution, the truth cannot be anymore clear of a contribution or not. so whether or not it was a lawyer. and i have given money to the rockefellers, i'm going into this, and we are taking this

money down to birmingham, alabama. so i thought that i was using an analogy. i talk about this in the opening paragraph. saying that you can't leave we have come this far is the good people. i can't believe we have come this far or, -- i think i actually said that we have come here today. we have come today to redeem this. to redeem a condescending note that has been returned unpaid for insufficient funds. >> that's right. >> can't believe that the

sufficient funds as a part of this. essentially, that is what this is all about. then i added on some other things as well. so to a certain extent, some of the language and stuff, there is no question about that. so here he is on the podium. so he goes along, he gets to the ninth paragraph or so, so what happens? he is and individual -- they had a special relationship.

and they would include something. and it is two of the many things. those things, including precious lord and the old rugged cross. we had such a special situation. and she was sitting up there. and i don't know -- she turns to him and says, tell him about the dream. and i have often thought, why did she show that he in fact, someone asked about this couple nights ago. so he is going along. and so when she shouts out to him. he acknowledges it, looks at the

podium, and i read his body language. and i turn to somebody who is next to me and says, i didn't know at the time, but they were about ready to go to church. so i thought, for the first time this week, i thought that maybe she thought that she had heard him speak so many times before. this is such a special occasion. and he was trying to say come on, you need to preach. and he was trying to say, tell them about the dream. that but she knew that that would trigger it for him. and he pushed the paper aside that he grabbed the podium. he looked over the audience.

now, i was that was the i have a dream portion of it. the i have a dream phrase was used before just in june. in chicago as well. i have a dream phrase. in the book i believe that i said yes. it's not if it's not set in the book, then it should be said. aside from being a gifted orator tore, using contemporary currency of technology, this brother, doctor king, he could cut and paste real-time as he is speaking. speaking in real time, but he is

mentally cutting and pasting and inserting into his extemporaneous oratory, the things that he said before. not just. >> you know, that is what so many people do. >> that is improvisation. you know, i said you were jonquil churn. and it was unbelievable. and you can speak to that. >> just. [laughter] >> but as i say, it is a combination. it was a beautiful day. it was the vision of 250,000 or more people.

it was the excitement. you know how it was part of philip ran off introducing martin luther king jr. you could feel it. and he says, not as coming that time who was the last speaker. it has come to that time, brothers and sisters, it is time to introduce the undisputed moral leader of this nation. the reverend, doctor martin luther king junior. in that place would just explode. just like that. and by the way, you know that there was some discussion about how long he was going to speak.

and you know those that were around martin and martin himself really felt that he should be the last month weekend. but he certainly felt that and so he said that he really wanted to be the last speaker. there seem to be some assistance. so finally they say, come to the meeting with me. they are talking about this. but i think that, you know, you know that you tend to speak so long. and they were all -- they were all jockeying for a position as to who is going to be the closing act. okay? >> and finally i looked at him and said, no.

do any of you really want to follow him? [applause] >> do you really want to follow him? and i said, when he say that? and they said because you run the risk of people getting up and leaving. and we have a major situation. you know, people don't want to put this clarence jones, like i can't sing. so does that question, apparently, they said, what do you think. and i said, well, i think that it will be difficult. and i said it's amazing how that

question was the level ground. so he was the right man that was at the right place at the right time. as i said, you know what that speech was? phrase i have a dream, it is repetitive. but when you look at it, he is speaking in the future. he is speaking in the future tense. that is because martin luther king landmark confidence and a greater vision of what america could be that america and the government have done.

america was like a dysfunctional alcoholic drug addict who would become addicted to racism and segregation. and right there at showed addiction. ..

is. >> of will and the things martin luther king, jr. and bought up on the -- mahatmas gundy can win in a major

country. >> one of the things in the book that struck me was the part to copyright that speech. not-for-profit sake but for posterity. i had the sense it would be a major speech. i did have a sense whenever be used could be exploited right out of the past.

limited copies were made available in the prescott -- in the press kit. [laughter] if you have the common-law copyright you lose your ability. so i did that. i did not know how important that was intel after the march all of the places of the speech i do the of march committee made it deal with barry corded from motown i said it was a motown record being played.

i quickly got the phone and said excuse me? guide to law partners with their help and advice with the injunction with the air request of the accounting of the proceeds. then he had held the copyright. enforced dash due to copyright protection it issued it to martin luther king hall but the copyright

was issued in my name. the order is marching king but if you see the certificate is made. >> one of the things that struck me also the letter from birmingham jail tell us a little bit about that. >> in 1963 as one of his lawyers would of the only people to visit him. iraq have been getting

nervous problem. for those who'd had the leadership bet was in jail although with the uaw. and we have a serious problem. he almost dismissed may. i really said people suggest that not that he dismissed pohai.

>> and would not be foolish enough to ask if i could do a. [laughter] but then the hope behind the dream of. >> guest: it is almost like a manifesto. but then they had no books. nothing.

i would expect him as a doctor of theology to expect that but he was quoting from a philosopher. if you see any part of the speech is all about. [laughter] and so i am thinking dr. king cole's the south from his memory bank? now i think the next book i am thinking about this with william randolph no permanent friends no permanent enemies. a new paradigm with the

participation of african-american in the 2012 elections. the first year i think will be as successful for what is happening here with the tree and the extraordinary journey as prophetic as he was. >> guest: take you so much. figure very much. >> the science doesn't actually tell us it tells us what we think will happen then we have to make choices about that. because one of the implications that the years is always changing and of course, we don't know that is necessarily the case.

but if you take that idea it leads with the question even if we can adapt is this the type of world we want to live in with the extreme drought aid we do have a choice. thi

a first of all, thank youhe to the new haven in the enterprise for this event histo and to all of you to hear about this glorious day in american history the 1963 march on washington.s a would like to start by ide talking about the concept of oue hero's.s. the etf of heroism is a l little odd dated these days we have seen our leaders a, not fatal with the cynical maneuver a behind the scenes b for a critical advantage in monetary grant stage but i

believe is one of the most important elements and by hero was some i don't read a few great men or women but to the every day version of hero with some. there is no better moment in american history than themovemet 1963 march on washington rawl factions were gatheredvolvs for the first and only time it was a sprawling time withest diverse groups from the north, the south, east, west, involving school teachers and ministers and housewivesfarmer d laborers and everybody thathem, you can imagine for the became civil rights movement andn yo thousands of them became heroes. ing t i think when you go to the,

mall on august 28, 1963 will encounter thousands and we ab will talk about what made it possible.ruit 18 ye to talk about a young man that was 18 years old at theand time from green for mississippi with thee from contingent he got the a biggest applied of the whole day how he carried a side with him, actually tucson'sn upo one of them said don'ty in prosecute people to sign up to go another said a free vote for a ready for this effort he was approached byashio

a security official.. and they specifically set standards. people, the the united auto workers paid for theor signs the organizers on of the march on washington wa approved from the march to the washington monument. and then to say saree you cannot carry that sign., he was a little scared and probably a little surprised then send the call that show him the notes. and to give it to theay security officer that is what i read it jimmy pruitt

was arrested for taking part in the demonstration he was convicted and sentenced for. henths in prison plus a $400 t fine for virtue.ackson misssip after a few days he was setry,t at just outside jackson mississippi it was one offor the most id he replaces he7 o was held for a total of 52 days in strips naked for 47of of those days.d him t his body was covered with it wok greece for much of the time. ae prisoners told him it day was poison and would kill him. he was given to poultrywith 13tl meals per day and at 1.in a r solitary confinement then he was would reach 106 degrees made ths

him pass out.. ended finally released after r 52 days. y so the security guard readyo the note and said that you can carry your sine. another person on the mall that day a student there wasf a protege that was the mississippi leader of the se naacp.vera with the only access was with the medicine man came s allegory -- dory started to make trips to the city ofas jackson and got more and more involved by the summer civl of 63 was a major

fund-raiser for the civil-rights movement andnd c then they would take peoples and that were active did take them to be your can los for allo angeles to tell the story oft activism to pay for all theo activity. h to work on the march onrtment washington did a regular artmen visitor at that apartment named was a seeing their name to bob dylan.t that was at any event it in mississippi.ther but dory was highly active in the movement really to put her body on the line when he was assassinated the morning of june 12th his servica followers gathered for a

major memorial service thate caf ability to have a funeralt procession so police would not let it but it they others decided they would do it. anyway and for that she and others were arrested and thrown into jail. bodie said they were not the only lin. ones to put their bodies on the delight hinted 1963 it wasere the busiest year of the civil-rights movement after the birmingham campaign some wee there were voided 2000 demonstrations more than 50,000 people jailed, and some were killed. why is it that ordinary people would be willing toethal put their body on the line in expose themselves to so

much physical and lethal danger? success was one of the major causes of ph the success was a philip civil randolph was the man whoy, ao brought mass demonstrations v in to the civil rights movement also the person who dreamed up the march it was. his ambition is to have this mass gathering before thephilli lincoln memorial. otomre he was involved the civil rights movement had toe wa defer it to perches to. promote the cause. one was the of property washington approach the first black figure invited. to dine with president theodore roosevelt. accept essentially he argued that in order to thrive the two

except segregation to build their own segregation it was cou futile to fight and of course, understand this is dien the -- machines were quite common. also a w. e. b. du bois argued they had to be much more aggressive and active tha and had to organize every where they could and by thato he meant the civil rights creamo movementf needed to identifynd the cream of the crop to get them h to be a vanguard to t ovad the charge to decide m what happened when you decide this strategy is.

abou says you have these civil-rights.e.b. du bois both of them are the eliteoker . models.ton did you e.b. day boy and bck booker l t. washington also a small group of leaders operating at the time but he along came a philip randolph moved to the york fromhis crescent city florida but not tw his father the reverend james randolph did not approve of acting in did notandu think it was immoral activities of philip stree gaveolphts gave it and gave up acting. so he took to the streets in gave classic soap box operation of all the issues of the day about "war andizing peace", a civil rights in he drew large crowds he had aally s

couple of failed efforts but he finally succeeded inompany ws started the pullman car reporters at the time mattuld ba was the single biggest employer of blacks in the united states so that would be a major coup for thee black community. t he had to endure violence violence, threats, the his own people getting kicked out of the job and hundreds lost their jobs for organizing with him and heered was even offered bribes he even had a blank check and bru. he said the back so he would have proof of the bribe that the they would try to make but he became a folk hero within go from h the black community.hinghat the less said philip black randolph got from all his

activism that the of the thing that would help the black community overcome this slave mentality to get the body -- the body's on the town square on theve picket line and put themselves for word to assert their identity. only by getting them ere physically into the bank's could get over, the interior 30 of the american system.housao so where did dory get the courage in the hundreds of thousands get the courage to come now to put their body of the line? one reason was a philip randolph throughout the time was called the mostdecide to u a dangerousrt the girl in america by the fbi later they decided to use that of your martin luther king.

but it is not enough to putelliy your body of the wine you also have to thinkre a nber o matelligently and strategically and creatively in there were a number ofth people in the movement on the mall that day thatntelli thought creatively highly intelligent now with thoseghts politics that we take for granted the state has a t t monopoly on the use of force violence in society.beastl

if you try to beat the state tee power with violence youe would be but overmatched and wit throated jail the only way to beat that power is with nonviolence. man one of the major theorist pro was the indian who was a. protege of a. philip randolph to organize the march on washington and was was randolph's deputy.istanc in randolph arguedss non-violent resistance wasor critical to any kind of success for the r civil-rights movement for two reasons. but the of them that what christians are aware of is turning the other cheek but the other is more strategic. what you do when you resistally paul word non-violent thecons ind accept the consequences is with broad consent from the state's cover you say i

do not accept the legitimacy of this power. the so even if people draw consent it crumbles or a onl least that part where the the practice can crumble. the only way the apartheid crume terrorist system too much of american history space wait could crumble is if enoughitut people the true aio consent. of course, you don't have to participate in the constitutional convention totopr consent. we had tacit consent every an day eddie time we stopped at a red light or agree to paynvolw ourit taxes were do anything with involves cooperation with the local government or wee state government or a es federal government.sethenius anytime we cooperate we give tacit consent.to reaze

the genius is if youoses i withdraw the consent the if t state loses the very powerful hold over you there aco were a number of other. people who understood this. and acted on this.f one was a man named jerome smith. and h he was 23 at the time from louisiana and was involvedaged at this time over 30 years since he was the greengage of ted. citie the the way the bus is operated they had these the miscalled. screens they would fit into a slot and if more whites got on the bus they could move this slot to the backlo of the bus.acks t in the tight -- to the tedf the white moved the slot at theth

black had to give up their seat one of the everyday indignities for much of american history. picp jerome onsmith with he was 10 ad years old pickup a slap and threw it to the ground to say i was the goal of of a with this. the driver threatened tond s have him arrested but said to se kindly we'll bid to kim aside and said don't worry i t lll take him to see his father to make sure he gets drie ar spaking she took him off and the bus then she embraced him in said keep doing whatedom you are doing. his grs what he did. heea is one of the freedom writers of 1961 but his greatest contribution i believe happened may of 1963 and played a major role in the success of the march ofe washington.

jerome smith was one of agenera handful of people it invited g to the apartment of attorneylait general robert f. kennedy a ldwi group organized at the lasthts minute by the author james baldwin including some of kenneh the intellectuals like showed u kenneth clparke, and harryt t belafonte they all showed up on for that black communityert in the united states afterf welcoming his guest he tt recited the gains that theinclud administration was claiming admn for civil rights and the, list included hiring more black sand have a more executive waters and theinis support for the initiativesesti

and when he was finished he opened the floor for r s discussion and questions. the senior members turned toar jerome smith and said we want you to hear directly s from misomeone who is in the light a fire.as sit he was sitting right inchair. front of robert kennedy aide jerome smith was at his feeto p the first thing he said was that wke me want to puke. the list to say bobby. kennedy was shocked by it that was just the beginning.ottn jerome smith proceeded toit he o tell him that if the u.s. got involved with the war with cuba he would not fight. foril the attorney general wasim aghast with his conscientious refusal for military service was still a little foreign to him he looked around the room tois

the p older members for support he wanted him --peakingt them to put the man in the place but they nodded and of said yes. this meeting lasted three so ds at the end robert f. kennedy walked outn physically shaken so did james baldwin in fact, im to tv talked with a man who took him to a tv station for a live interview.p, so in henry told me that james baldwin was so shaken up andar w physically disturbed that he re. said henry you need to take me to the bar. henry refused he said we have to get to the tv station for this interview momeo by in the interview on w baldwin was physically shaken up and this was

pivotal. support only a few weeks later thatoverr president john kennedyn announced his support for the most over reach gene civil-rights legislation since reconstruction and in a speech on june 11 he gave the most far reachingcae, statement of support for the civil rights movement as a s moral cause a and theonal rhts i american cause.historby there had never been a speech of this nature by ape president. dow jerome smith was, segregng intelligently. getty into the heart of the satter that segregation bck depends on the consent ofon the people. it may not be that thehem blacks voted for segregation eve nin, they did not have a peoplev chance but not even a lot of of whites voted half the

country was aloof from thete whole issue of segregation and civil rights. are g but by going along with the system that allows it to happen to give tacit consentonst and he said i am withdrawing my v consent. this is very much along withelse dead teachings of byron. someone else had acted witha yol extreme intelligence committees are ordinary people a young woman named cerbara jones who lived inprin farm bill virginia. that was in the countywing called prince edward countycisi and in the years of of following the brown pursues board of education decision, of the south or a device from massiver resistance to integration virgia than was more resistant than the state of virginia and in

sa fact,yi virginia passed a law ne that said no county or city needs to provide public education for anybody. you can shed devil wholen w school system. ncer now before brown barbara wh jones was concerned aboutand whe the inequality of school facilities with placates and white schools that what reqred happened in virginia at theoolig time you were only required to provide schooling for fa grades k through eight after that they could work in the farms or the factories or dohato nothing. f but one school system did offer case to 12 education through prince edward county that is why the schools were so overwhelmed they had 450genty

students enrolled so barbara organized a boycott to get ppual facilities and she went with her group of we wi supporters to the naacp. sepa they said we will support you but not four separate but equal but only if you sta join a lawsuit that we think a will make it to the united that states supreme court and youduci become a litigant in brown fur says board of education. the 15 year-old leas girl help to of unleash a whole series of s events that eventually led to the crisis of the schools shut down in prince edward county from 1959 throughl, 1964. many of the people that went to the march ono washington, about 100 peoplemert , not many, volunteered that but

summer school for all those notw kids that had not been therehe before. some that did not know how expot to hold a pencil, did not know the alphabet and had not been exposed to some ofurns those that it it turns out they were exhausted from their trip but many of those bal people were essentials the children of the movement civil that barbara jones helped to create.o put the civil-rights movement first had to get physically itao involved to have people put their body on the line then come up with intelligentth strategies for overcoming extremely long odds against t them after all a vaste minority that had no to exe

opportunity to use any power o at the ballot box when they tried to exercise any rights they were terrorized tornadic their homes andso jobs a of the beaten and at terrorized ioon a regular basis. in order to overcome thisategic situation they first had to put their bodies on the line and come up with a smart strategic approach but thatan would not be enough. silent to tell you about daisy some other figures at the mall that day.ng daisy bates was one of the leading supporters and th organizers for the of the barack nine. myth central high school wasbeca desegregated the national guard was sent by eisenhower

they did not lead to sees. central high school desegregated he did not want eve to see black children enrolled but the ec was the she h everyday adviser, a and teacher, comforter, she hadnt po been involved in politics for many years he became thekint point person to help these nine children get throughand emo the terror of walking to school every day that were no inflicted on a daily basis of the emotional abuse.atef now quiet just after she was born, her mother was raped and murdered by three white racist.nts. she was put into the care of a couple of stepparents and as she grew up she saw her stepparents taking is an she enormous amount of abuse

themselves one time she went up to her stepfather and said white you except thise saii abuse? why don't you hate these th people? he said quite simply, daisy simply, daisy, you return vio hate with one of the end you yo can hate the violence in the actimidation in the on r fairness but it did you have to do something about misoji dedicated her life to lov working with the civil-rights movement that decade point is you return hate with love that is a hah t profound concept.he cam there was someone else at o the march that night.

harold i bride came down froml d 10 to ohio. they sat down at the mall heedwm shelbyville umbrella over certa her and when martin lutherorta king got to a certain part that we felt were the four most important words although it was not i never the dreamed that under andody suffering is redemptive heeen told me he felt a surge ofhis electricity go through his body as if he was touched byell the most profound thing inrander his life van remembered back to this story his father used to tell him about his grandfather who was a landn his he wasin alabama. one day sitting on his horse on his own property and wasealo shot dead off a horse by ag

white farmer that was jealous and in free a black man could possibly own fathe anything. grandfath when harold bribes botherof the told him this story how he was shot down in cold bloodhatrd he settles the same thing that you cannot hate hatred or fight it with hatred but just with love. harold likewise took that toof e heart.hingn was for a lot of people thehave a highlight of the march on washington was the famous i have a dream speech. four i avery it was. word they to emphasize forredempve. different words under and suffering is redemptive the other they and i have a as dream he tried to doo hol something soulful to hold

the movement together in the u summer of 1963 the movementth wasis splintering facing the unprecedented pressure from the outside this was ther kinwih summer of the fbi decided they would go out after martin luther king withf everything they had when condion literally tens of thousands of blacks were thrown into jame jail some as bad as james lee crew will for thatis was temerity to march and stand als up for their own basic rates.were startin this was the summer alsoient with the younger blacks wereonvt starting to get impatientten ret with martin luther king with his emphasis on non-violent meas resistance has started to and listen to malcolm x also robert williams but he was

one of the leading apostles of fighting violence with i orolence. monroe, n there were a number of people involved in monroe north carolina with a big battle there where williams as a majorm figure and he was finding a lot were followers that were arguing note to non-violence and to same integration that were the two t pillars of the civil-rights movement. at the same time there is aical movement on the left a more radical move to repudiate, not also growing tessure from the right that tht only to develop those plans but it movements throughout to the south in the stateess legislature to have constitutional amendments to rig

take congress is right of way to legislate anything on tim civil rights these amendments slowly moving toatesa passage basically keep warm dash created a new federal states. and web martin luther king would to to hold it to get there a and to put to the that h center of the move made inomehow the core of the movement was h the separation in the integration. he had to reach his father that was abused for so longf to who walked into water cannons and billy clubs and carted off to jail who had been terrorized and countless other ways he had to to appeal to them to b stick with it in what i consider to be the core of the speechat in the core message of that

day he said i know you havege come here at of great trials and tribulations some of youecom have come here having suffered physical abuse. abuse, economic abuse and every other kind of themptive dignity but i would want to tell you this suffering is, redemptive. think about that here was aas nt leader not telling them it would be easy but it would was g be hard. not that it was a safe place to go but go back tonte louisiana or georgia and telling them to go right you back into the middle of the violence. there and if you do that there will be redemption at the end of the day. them in the you may know this yet but there will be redemption at the end of the day.grescann

.ot . people in power. they're going to fight back when you want to take away. if it was born to be easy there was no need for the movement in the first place. this is hard work. he insisted that under aren't suffering as redemptive. that adds what i think is the third core element of this great movement. always much more powerful because it taps into things that once there no one can take away. he took seriously the command to love of neighbor as thyself. he sometimes joked, the tsunami now have to like him. and it was this extra element, this third element, along with

bodies on line and thinking with high intelligence as ever has been brought to bear. these elements were on display. i want to close the couple of quick comments. i started talking about harrelson. i would argue strongly that every one of these people i mentioned is a hero, and there were thousands of other ordinary euros on the mall. i've always told a few stories. one of the important things to remember is it has to come from ordinary people. it cannot come from the professional activists. martin after king was a professional activists. they did all kinds of great things for their people and for this country. it had to be the ordinary people

who were sprawled out in front of them. i just heard the talk last night , a psychologist argues about ordinary everyday heroes and says that in waterford good to happen you have to prepare to be a hero. ordinary people have to prepare to be a hero the extreme situation, and it's almost always going to be an unpredictable moments, they're ready to jump in and do the right thing. the small contained upwards of 500,000 people, the official estimate is 250. more independent estimates say more like 400. filled with ordinary heroes. that is why the march on washington was so important. for the very first time ever all

america got to see the glory of the civil rights movement. now, i understand that we have a little bit of time for questions . the way this works is that because c-span is taping this, you have to talk into a microphone which the dew is going to be passing around. okay. so he is there with the mike. anyone who wants to have a question, i am happy to entertain. >> i was going to ask you with the title came from. >> there are a lot of great anthems, and that is one of them. atop that it really kind of captured the termination to move

forward no matter what. no matter what cancun there was no going back, no going back to terrorism. no going back to anything except for basic equal rights for everybody. i thought that song captured the defiance and determination that hundreds of thousands of people display that summer. >> won over here. >> our love your boat. i think it is brilliant. i am wondering what you as an author went through in terms of a changing or non changing image that you personally held, what he thought, what you thought as he reported it and went out and rode it and what you think now.

>> well, you know, i have always been in all of martin luther king. i remember when he was shot i was seven years old. i lived in philadelphia at the time. the philadelphia inquirer included a big glossy color photograph. i take it over my bed. i don't know what it was because i was too young to understand. i don't know what it was the was so captivating. he has always been discreet source of inspiration. i also have always known that he was human. he had his own frailties, floss. he did not always to the right thing, not always as courageous as he should have been. but to me the thing that is most great is not that he had so many great quantities but that he was

able to overcome his own inherent limitations. when he was a boy his teachers said there was not really anything special about him intellectually. he could not ride it all. he almost never spoke. you could tell back then that he had this determination. he did not know what it was. he wanted a little different. it was not until after he finished college and went to the seminary just outside philadelphia, it was not until the end that his vision for himself as a leader and a civil rights activist really jelled. it was also not until then that

he stopped hitting a people and it is hard not to hate people who are pressing. growing up in atlanta, even in the comfortable circumstances where he grew up, in dignity's more or around. what amazes me so much is that intense striving to go to the next level, to not be satisfied with how much you know, not be satisfied even with your own philosophical point of view. her round the time of the montgomery bus boycott that was a non-violent movement. cain did not really understand what non-violence ones. he had our cards on his porch, pistols line around, and it was not until bayard rustin came down from new york that he was

called the american ghandi. it was not until he came into his house, moved into his basement to live, not until he got there and he really understood not only tactics but the power of nonviolence. up till you one more thing. i love this man. the talked to a guy named floyd mckissick chair near his bother with the speaker for their congress of racial equality. the leader was in jail in louisiana at the time. so mckissick stood in for him. now a state legislator in north carolina. he told me that his image of martin luther king, jr. is this gentle father figure who would taken by the hand, walking down the street, buy him an ice-cream, played with him,

tickle him. that is a sign of what people don't see. multifaceted, always, always interested in growing beyond whatever he was. anything up front? >> to use the -- to questions. our age as the ford of hair wasn't? if so, what? >> account. well, you know, it's hard to say the cynical part of me wants to say yes. i don't know that. i don't know the client needs of hair was. i no there are all kinds of people doing all kinds of creative things. starting schoolrooms. colleges like yale and all over the country people are just dying to work and come to the

intercity and teach. so there's an idealism is a little bit of that enthusiasm resonate touting? i suppose, but that is a pretty time consuming way to pack you resonate. there is a wellspring, a real desire to do something to make the world better. i think we live in an age where it is kind of hard to do the right thing, hard to have the time to develop yourself. i think we live in a society of greek distraction, a society where we are so unbelievably materially well-off that we have no idea how well off really are. we are dissatisfied when we don't have a new car when we don't have the latest computer were flat screen tv, none of

which really matters. these things are really distracting and take your mind off of both how lucky you are on a day-to-day basis and how much report there is to do. so i pick above all else we live in the age of distraction. that undermines that really powerful urge the people have to do something good. by the way, this man was at the march. [applause] >> my recollection is that coming out of the 50's, the whole concept of protest was not legitimate and was regarded as subversive. do you think the 1963 march played an important role in beginning to change that so that you could actually organized the demonstration without the

feeling that you were being subversive and might end up in jail or be beaten up by the cops? >> you were. but i do believe the kind of conventional wisdom about the march on washington is that it did not make that much of a difference. it was a nice way for the different factions together. there was this great speech. a lot of people remember, but in the long run it to not make much difference. that was kind of my point of view. what i have come to realize is it made a huge difference. this was the first time, the first time that all america, to see the civil rights movement unfiltered. it was the first major unofficial event covered live by national tv.

and when america was able to see who these people were and how decent the war, and it was palpable. when america was able to see how decent this movement was and how uncomplaining this movement was and have determined to put their own bodies on and have determined there were to love their neighbors. this is all corny. when americans saw this i believe it transformed people's understanding did it do it instantly? for some yes, for others now. but it made a major difference. a couple of other important facts. behind the scenes there was a battle over whether there was born to be a woman speaker.

ten officials. the current legitimately complain that they were not represented. the bunch of of the people. and there were told by philip randolph and capping three, look, you are represented james farmer represents to. john lewis represents to. there was eventually a compromise. she was given a short little speech. a group of about eight women were asked to stand up and down.

but i believe that that played a major role in the emerging women's rights movement because there was this really strong, sharp, palpable notion. hell is it different for blacks to be claiming their rights which they deserve. how is that different from women being able to claim their rights? it became pretty clear pretty quickly that it was not right. and there was another inch and -- incidents. only speculation. i believe that the march on washington is a major influence in creating the free speech movement which began that next year. one of the main leaders was involved in the civil rights movement. i've still not been ill-defined out.

in any event there was a big battle behind-the-scenes. the catholic church threatened to pull all of its priests and nuns and followers of the march because they considered his speech to be too incendiary. a marched throughout the south to shatter the system of segregation. that was too incendiary for the catholic bishop of washington. he threatened to pull out. eventually he did change his speech. there was a big free speech issue. i was very much on the mind of every activist. the newhall was calling on. in new exactly what was going on i believe that his first speech

was filled every bit as much as his second speech. it contributed greatly to the free speech movement and as a result the holstered movement and eventually the peace movement. so this spawned all kinds of things. can i prove that? no. it had a major influence. this was an american politics at its absolute best on full view, not only the u.s., but the whole world. this event was covered by satellite throughout the world. so they saw it in africa, asia, europe. there were going to see it in the soviet union, but it went too well. at any rate, it was seen across the world. that, in turn, had a major impact on people in colonial systems who were thinking about their own struggles.

martin luther king was a major influence for the democracy movement which had a very interesting role on the trajectory of the vietnam war. so this is a signal moment in american history. anything else? this? >> you touched on it a bit, but how much to you go into it in your book under the clash of the class is between the leaders, just to be there to support civil rights? >> when you say class you mean -- >> class is. >> okay. well, one of the saddest things that i came upon in this research was a memo that kind of

summarized where the planning ones. i got all of the records. i went through them page by page. one of the saddest moments i had was finding a memo where there were listing all of the speakers at the march. one of the lines said unemployed worker. it was crossed out. ..

>> it was an affectation that use what he wanted to get peoples attention. he said that children, the only thing that matters is having as many people on the mall as possible. to show that this is a grand movement and we are not going anywhere and we get our basic rights. but i think about figured that was probably a correct decision. what i have loved to seen an employed worker get up there and speak from experience? it was one of those compromises that the organizers made to continue moving forward.

it was so important for the unemployed worker. these little tensions existed throughout. it was a kind of traditional civil rights approach to more the more radical things. there was all kinds of tension. they were all united because they wanted to make this thing happen. they also realized that the united states was really in danger of kind of blowing up. we kind of think that our times are bad. there is a lot of ugliness, tension, hatred that exists. but it really was exceeded by those times. what enabled them to get through it was really the heroes that we all know about, philip ran off and martin luther king and john lewis and all these other people. but also the other heroes that were on the mall. they were really ready for anything. they are the people that reacted

when danger approach them. >> over here? >> thank you. mccarthyism had not died at that point, unfortunately. could you explain to what effect they had a role that they played and how that role is given? we were these stewards that were kept in the back. >> is very interesting. when the idea for the march verse started to develop in december of 1962, what they were thinking of doing with having a centennial march for the emancipation proclamation. it took effect on january 1, 1863. they were thinking, okay, this is the great centennial year. we need to do something like

that. they got together in december and they agreed that they would try to get some kind of march on washington going. philip randolph had organize one and then he called it off because frank lin roosevelt, the president, caved in to his demands for a executive ordered banning discrimination against blacks in wartime. so he wanted to do this march in the worst way for many years. and they kind of planted the seed. by the time that he had met randolph, he had already sent stanley a lot of lights on a fund-raising mission. and he told him that i want to go to the left wing or organization. to get money. here is why, he said. he said kennedy will want to control this thing.

so when you talk about georgia the afc -- if we go to either of these two guys, they are going to go back to john f. kennedy. so we would lose control of the thing before we even got it going. so he told him to go about to the left oriented labor unions and get money and to start feeling out, you know, who would be interested in doing this. as it turned out, it was the main guy, who was a critical part in this. for example he was on the side of the catholic bishops who are against the speech of john lewis and they kind of pressured roy wilkins and john lewis to make sure that they accommodated catholics. they didn't want to see this whole big fashion people lead.

so he was a liberal by any stretch. but he was also terribly concerned because of a handful of phrases and speeches. organized labor was oftentimes deeply racist. although walter had been talking about this for many years, there was still no significant white membership in the leadership of the uaw at this time. so he had clay feet, but he had not come through on his promise to integrate the labor movement. it was a hard thing. a lot of labor was really concerned if. much of it was racist as well. now, is there anything else?

>> you described yourself when all this was happening as the suburban philadelphia -- >> at the time of the march i was a 2-year-old from chattanooga, tennessee. >> that does not matter to me. my question is what made you so interested in the subject? >> you know, i really don't know. but i will tell you that i was already interested in this in this event and incident happened. but when i was young, i was born in hamilton hospital in chattanooga, tennessee, in 1960. i was born and the county hospital. my mom gave me a vb book i

remember looking at it and seeing -- i mean, i knew intellectually. i knew it factually. but it did not sink in until i saw that. but the feeling that i think i have had my whole life has been so important. it just swelled as i did the research for this book. but the feeling i had my whole life is thank goodness that was better than okay. it was the law. to think that i was better because i had white skin and to think that i deserved better facilities because i have white skin? we have a lot of problems with race and poverty and classes. so i don't mean to minimize this at all. it was because of these people and i think that i have always

been grateful for that. my gratitude just overwhelms me at times as i was doing this research because, you know, it was referred to as a black movement. but there is was really no such thing in one sense anyway. it was a way of redefining what it means to be a citizen of this country and it was redefining how we look on our fellow citizens. i did not hear people using racist words or make the argument that whites are better than blacks. i know people say that. but i didn't hear it. i did not grow up going to a white school, like i went to school with a lot of blacks and hispanics. so growing up in a kind of post-racist society, even though

it hasn't solved all the problems, that is an incredible gift. i think that i knew that all along. i believe that it is what pulled me forward and tugged hugged me. but it only grew in intensity as i worked on this research. >> do you get involved in civil rights movements? >> a lot happened in this country. here is what i think about the civil rights. after the march on washington. this is what i would like to think about civil rights going forward. to take a couple minutes to get it out. very important topic. but after the march on washington, one interview took place about what would happen to the movement. in a famous article was written

called from protest to politics. and in these remarks and in this article, he argued that as soon as basic rights were granted, as soon as the legislation passed, the movement itself was kind of over. now that the people were given basic equality under the law, now what politics is about is bargaining for your piece of the pie. so rather than demanding this all along, the basic rights of humans, the politics shifted from making universal demand to bargaining for your share of the benefits. and as soon as you move to a bargaining style of politics, you lose a lot of moral

elasticity. grants for job training, bilingual education and housing and all kinds of other things. it's not that that doesn't matter, but the kind of give-and-take politics as opposed to universal demand and no compromise kind of politics. that is what we have been dealing with since this period, roughly 65, 68, however you want to trace the end of the civil rights movement. we have become a nation of bargainers benefits. but i believe is that we need to make a move back towards a discussion about what are the universal values that we need. we need to think about politics and policy. we need to think about it in terms of making sure that everyone has access to certain basic things. let me give you one example.

education. i know that it is controversial among some people, especially among the teachers union. but i believe that the single most important thing that we can do for civil rights is tax-free and open choice. there is no reason at all that a black child or a poor child or any child should not have the same access to education is somebody coming from a world of privilege. when someone moves from iowa to new york, my father went about three or four months ahead of time specifically to find the best school district he good for me and my brother and my two sisters. in other words, my family were very lucky to have school choice. so now how can other people not

have a choice. i believe that it was a full-fledged movement where every single child, every single family in the country could select whatever school works best for them, that we would see an unparalleled driving of educational excellence. you could pick other examples as well where others can move up front again and we need to get away from the kind of back-and-forth bargaining difference. because i think that that has gotten us into this and it is where people are also confused about what the goal is. if the goal is to create more benefits and create a more correct system. i would like to see this move

from protest to politics towards universal basic access. >> are you pleased with what you have done with your education? >> yes -- >> can you educate the world? >> do teach everybody what are they doing with that education and all the things that are happening in the world right now. i do know about a lot of things because i've been through a lot. on every economic survey, people make far more money, they have far more choices in the kind of choices that they can have. i've made more mistakes than i

care to admit the night country and i care to admit. i've also done a lot of things right and a lot of it has to do with me getting a good education in public schools and getting a scholarship and i am eternally grateful for the education that i get. basically what gave me was choice. the more education you get, the more doors that open for the less education you get, the more doors that close. so that is the big thing to me. >> would you get involved in the civil right movement. >> on it and translate about what i'm doing now. i've developed a system of writing, which i call a writing code, which i believe can transform anybody's writing a matter of days. i'm talking to some people in boston about getting a group of

high school dropouts together so that i can teach them what they did not get in high school. writing is not as hard. but what it does do is that everybody can enjoy the basic skills of writing. one of my motivations for doing this is putting new powers and tools into ordinary people's hands. it involves me putting more tools into more people's hands. >> that's right. >> understand. but they are tearing about this in many different forms.

nd ten minutes.

>> well, first of all, thanks to the new haven free public library for hosting this event and thank you to you all for coming out to hear about this glorious day in american history , the 1963 march on washington. and i would like to start by talking about the concept of heroes. the idea of heroism seems a little outdated these days. we live in a cynical age. we have seen our leaders, all of their warts, cnn fail, seen the kind of cynical maneuvering behind the scenes, not for the better good, but for political advantage and from monetary advantage and so forth. heroism, i believe, is one of the most important elements of any kind of social progress.

i mean and much more every day version of heroism. there is no better movement, no better moment in american history to find real heroes than the 1963 march on washington were all of the factions of the civil rights movement were gathered really for the first and only time. this was a sprawling movement, involving diverse groups from all over the country, north, south, east, west camauro, urban. it involves school teachers and ministers and housewives and students and laborers and farmers and everyone that you can imagine got involved in the civil rights movement. many of them, thousands of them, in fact, became heroes. i think that when you go to the mall on august 28 to 1963 you're going to encounter literally thousands of them right there, and i want to talk about a few of these and what

made their great deeds possible. i want to start off by talking about a young man named james lee pruitt, 18 years old at the time from greenwood, mississippi and james lee priutt came to the march with a contingent of people from mississippi. now, james lee priutt carried a sign with him, actually to. homemade signs, and one of them said don't prosecute people for trying to sign up to vote. the others said a free vote for everybody in mississippi in 1964. for this effort, and bringing his own sign, he was approached by a security official said, you're not want to have . the march on washington committee had specifically set standards for how the signs

would come out. the united auto workers paid for the signs. there was a group of people, the organizers had to approve every single sign that was carried along the march from the washington monument to the lincoln memorial. so there was reason for a security guard to approach him and say, sorry, you cannot carry a sign. james lee priutt was probably a little bit scared, a little bit intimidated, a little bit surprised. the kind of froze in a moment. finally someone called out, show them the note. so he took out of his pocket and note, unfolded, and give it to the security officer. this is what the security officer read. back in may jenny pruitt was arrested for taking part in a demonstration. he was convicted and sentenced

to four months in prison plus a $400 fine for marching. he eventually ended up after a few days at the notorious prison just outside jackson mississippi and for those of you who know this of the history, it was one of the most inhumane places to be held. he was held for a total of 52 days. he was stripped naked for 47 of those days. his body was covered with grease for much of the time. his prisoners told him that it was poison and it would kill him he was given two meals a day and the russian was cut in half. held in a six by 9-foot cell with 13 other people. at one point he was in solitary confinement. the heat which reached 106 degrees made him pass out. as i said, he was finally released after 52 days of this hell.

so the security guard redfin of and said, mr. pruitt, you can carry your sign. let me tell you about another person on the mall that day. dorian live near was a student at jackson state, a protege of the mississippi leader of the naacp. she grew up with her sister and several town in mississippi where the only access to outside news was when the medicine man came and would leave behind a magazine or newspaper. now, soon with a high school she got recruited to join the naacp inserted to make trips to this big city which is where she met medgar and get more and more involved in the movement. she was a major fund-raiser for the civil rights movement. what they did in those days, take people who were active and take them around to new york and

boston and chicago and los angeles and tell their story about activism throughout the south as a way of raising money to pay for all of the activities of the movement. along with her sister, she also worked in the movement and worked on the march on washington. she and her sister joyce shared an apartment with a nobleman named horowitz. a regular visitor of that apartment was a young swinger name a -- singer named bob dylan who was kind of sweet on abcafifteen. but dorie was not only active in the movement, like many other people she was willing to put her body on the line. when medicare evers was assassinated on the morning of june 12, his followers gathered for a major memorial service and funeral. then they wanted to have a funeral procession passed the

state capital of mississippi. the police would not allow it. dorie and her fellow activists decided it would do it anyway. for that impudence she and others were arrested and thrown in jail. now, after 13 and james lee pruitt were not the only people to put their bodies on the line. in 1963 it was the busiest year of the civil rights movement. after the birmingham campaign there are more than 2,000 demonstrations across the country, more than 50,000 people were jailed, and some were killed. now, why is it that ordinary people like this would be willing to put their bottom align? why is it that they would expose himself to so much physical danger, lethal danger? one of the major reasons, and one of the major causes of the

civil rights movement eventual success was an man named a. philip randolph, the man who brought mass demonstrations in to the civil rights movement and, incidentally, also the person who dreamed up the march. it was his vision to have this math -- mass gathering. now, around the time that a. phillip randolph got involved in politics in new york in the 19 teens and into the 20's, the civil-rights movement basically had two different approaches to promoting the cause. one was what you might call the booker t. washington approach. booker t. washington was a major educator, the first black figure invited to dine at the white house with president theodore roosevelt. and booker t. washington essentially argued that blacks, in order to thrive, need to accept segregation and simply build their own institutions within their own world. it was shootout to fight the

massive structures of segregation. of course you have to understand, this was a time when lynchings were quite common. another figure, w. e. b. boyce disagreed vehemently. he argued that blacks in the civil rights movement in general had to be much more aggressive and active. they had to become troublemakers, organize everywhere that they could. it was the boys came up with the concept. by that he meant that the civil rights movement and the black community as a whole needed to identify the cream of the crop, the very best and brightest and get in to be a kind of vanguard for the movement, to lead the charge, to decide what happened when and to decide the tactics and strategies and so forth for the movement. so you have these two models of civil rights. both of them, when you think about it, our elite models.

w.e.b. du bois focused on the talented tenth. booker t. washington focused on a small group of black leaders within the community operating within the confines of segregation. but along came a. philip randolph, born in crescent city, florida. he moved to new york because you wanted to be an actor and appeared in many plays. his father did not approve of acting. he did not think it was immoral activity, and so his son gave in and gave up acting. he sent up to the streets and gave classic soap box oration about all of the issues of the day, economics, labor, civil rights, war and peace, you name it. he drew large crowds. he got involved in organizing. have a couple of failed efforts to organize labor unions until he finally succeeded. after many years he organized

the pullman porters. in this day and age we don't even really remember much about the pullman car porters, but at the time the pullman company was the single biggest employer of blacks in the united states. so organizing them would be a major coup for the black community. he had to endure violence. he had to endure threats. he had to endure his own people getting kicked out of their job. he was even offered bribes. he took a photograph of a blank check that was sent to him, and then he sent it back so that he would have proof of the brunt. he eventually succeeded and became a folk hero within the community. the lesson a. philip randolph got from his activism was that the only thing that would help the black community overcome what he called a slave mentality