as i reached over, nancy's rectangle shape wooden next and where my phone rested, my heart raced. i have taken dozens of late-night calls over my more than two decades in the ministry. i knew that good news never arrived at this time of night.

when i focus my eyes on the phone, i saw the name of the caller and my spirit sank. it was not tosha davis the ran the sunbird -- soundboard. she was a part of my family. i entered her phone number into my phone under the name that tosha davis dewitt. though she stood at just barely five-foot tall, we lovely nicknamed her our little be. her huge smile, quick witness and willingness to assist the church with everything from the sound system to youth group let her an outside presence at our church. as a patch of a small church like ours, anyone wants to help is appreciated, but a strong count and vibrant spirit is an absolute treasure. not tosha, i whispered, as i picked up the phone does not to wake kelly.

yes, natasha stammered, even though she barely said a word i could tell she was already in tears. i slipped my shoes on, headed down the staircase, walked silently through the for your and into the tiny bathroom our guest bedroom. as to let kelly continue sleeping. i stood uncomfortably between the baby do -- the baby blue colored bathroom sink -- as i stated myself a decent, not tosha told me that her brother had been severely injured in a motorcycle accident in the lake charles area. a tosha carefully explained that the er physician had failed to revive her brother and the specials were on the way. listening to that tosha, having

recent mode we all journey to in our lives when injuries, with inquiries to nurses and doctors about a loved one's health had been exhausted at our ability to make the situation any better is depleted. it's at that moment when you call your pastor in hopes of bringing god's grace and, perhaps, a resolution to moment that is steadily speeding towards tragedy. i knew that she wanted me to pray for her brother's condition to improve and for her to have the strength to weather the storm. to pray that she is able to do the right things and not lose it amidst her family's tragedy. but natosha didn't say any of this. she didn't even say, will you pray for me, jerry? she didn't have to. in a pastor worth his salt won't let the conversation go that far.

the second that anguished call arrives, it is the pastor's job to pray. it's just like when a friend or family member initiates a hug, and embrace is understood and instinctual between two people who care for one another, so asking for a hug renders it meaningless. i had no doubt in my mind what my role was as i listened to natosha's careful telling of her brother's motorcycle wreck. yet i could not pray your and every second that went by without my prayer for natosha and her brother felt like and eternity, a profound span of time when natosha, one of the most beloved members of my former congregation, was left helpless and without the spiritual reassurance she so desperately and rightly prayed. i struggle to pray because all of the conflicts that had existed inside of me about my faith, which i temporarily resolved time and time again through my motivation to remain

in the ministry, suddenly fused into an awareness that there was no god. but i could not pray for natosha because i love her so deeply and could not bear setting her up for the kind of crushing disappointment i had witnessed with the grover and bobby, an aunt and uncle of mine who went through a horrible tragedy. i had witnessed with grover and bobby's unanswered prayers over my cousin, or my own prayers for larry smith's sick brother. if i prayed for natosha and her brother didn't make it, it wouldn't be need who had disappointed her. it would be god who let her down. i didn't want to initiate in natosha the long and painful journey of doubt that i had

experienced. for the first time i turn to reason. natosha, i said in a calm, reassuring voice, it sounds like everyone at the hospital is doing everything they can. your brother is a young man and the strongman. they are bring in specialists so wwe're just going to have to wat this out and see what happens. but natosha, i'm telling you it sounds like he's going to be all right. natosha thank me for taking the call so late at night informed hard -- for encouraging words. then, just before we made our goodbyes, natosha said, keep him in your prayers. i pause for a moment, and then replied, of course, natosha. of course. when i hung up the phone i was heartbroken. i knew that deeply disappointed natosha. i realize at the moment if i could not pray for person who so near and dear to me that my dream of returning to the ministry was over. i have given up on preaching

after -- but the ministry remained a far-off remote possibility. now there was no ministry left. i stared into the bathroom mirror. i was in tears. do it, i think we said to myself, who the hell are you? it was done. it was over. i couldn't continue to fool myself into thinking that i would one day find some form of christian ministry to participate in. i have bounced from denomination to denomination, from a literal bible interpretation to an embrace of christianity as metaphor and i had finally reached the conclusion of that quest. i was looking at an atheist standing there looking in the mirror. it was a painful realization, but the next moment literally

tore my soul apart. they arthere in the guest bathri said three final goodbyes to my loved ones. to my cousin gary, my grandfather and my father. i think that's as far as i can go. thank you. [applause] >> so is it time for questions and answers? come around. are you coming over this way? does anybody have any questions? if so, do you mind making a way to the microphone? might as well. it's okay. you're going to be on camera regardless. >> i was curious what you made of an experienced the recount in the early part of the book when

you are still believing and still practicing, you talk about an almost psychic experiences like knowing what hospital someone was in, needed uconn needed print over and even finding the room they were in. what do you make out of that kind of age during sinan? >> that's a very good question. what he is referring to is in the book i tell the story of a pastor's relative who was suffering from an aneurysm. and i felt as we would say in those days, i felt led of god to go and pray for this person. and i didn't just want to pray on these the. i wanted to see this person healed. that's a big thing. i was wrestling with this concept at the time, that if i could get the mind of god i would do more than just pray. i would actually have god's confirmation that he was going to yield this person. and if i did know that god had

already agreed to heal the person, and i wouldn't go pray. i felt the reason, you know, so many unanswered prayers is because we were praying for things that were outside of the will of god. so i prayed all night long. all night long i prayed asking god to confirm to me whether he would heal this person. and in what i felt like at the time was a vision, i felt as if i received confirmation that he would do so. the problem was i didn't know enough information about the young lady to attrac track downh hospital she was in. much less which room she was in. this was a minister that i knew vaguely again so the only thing i did know was that the person who told me about the sick woman actually told me the town that the lady was in. and so the next day my wife and i, we got in a four-day -- four-door buick listed and we drove to the town from a very large town. we drove there not knowing which hospital to stop it. and from the interstate on an overpass i saw a hospital.

and i felt in my mind at that time a magnetic pull to that hospital. and so we pulled in the parking lot. we went into the lobby, we got in the elevators and i just pressed the button. to this day i still don't remember which floor i pressed. we came out on thi on the open , filled with nurses and patients, we walked down the corridor. when we would meet an intersection i would simply pray and tried to get a feel for which direction god was leading me. i feel a magnetic, something eternally pulling me. i would take the pathway. eventually these turns left and right led to a dead-end. where i felt like a complete imbecile. but instead of one head and pushed open the door and when i pushed open the door, there was the pastor, and there was a sick relative laying in the bed. and to me it was a fulfillment of the confirmation that i'd

gotten the night before. instead of walking in and saying a prayer like a god, would you please heal this person? i look at this almost like a body and i said in the name of jesus christ -- and a few days later she was out of the hospital. so this gets people. they are like, why the heck did you write that book? it sounds like you've got more proof than most people that god exists. and this is the power of coincidence. because i don't remember all of the time that i felt like god let me down a pathway that ended up being a true dead-end. but i definitely remember this one. so this was a hit and not miss. parter human psychology of course it remember the hits and not the missus. this is a big mess. a big kid. it's really, really awesome and it's a really wonderful and the full story and i'm glad that it turned out the way it was that

it did, but the reality was it was a very profound coincidence. that's why remember it. that's how i contributed, that was a coincidence. >> don't be shy. you know, what's interesting, is that we base so much of our life and our life decisions on much smaller coincidences. you go to the bar, the first person who walks up you thank god for seeing them in your life. three years later you know was the devil instead last night. >> in the same vein, because when i first come first part of your book i did not how you going to dig your way out of that. and also the voices you heard. like the messages that were

really affected you and you said you heard them. i think you even saw, univision or something, in that case waiting for you to blame that an at the end you kind of say something like anxiety attacks, neurological. but just to remember and them as actual things that happened you, and how do you explain that? >> as far as like receiving messages? >> hearing voices. >> hearing the voice of god. in particular the one that we talked about in the book where i truly believe that i had heard the voice of god, there was a lot of times throughout my life that to me the voice of god was and the eternal thought. is a very, very loud thought in my mind. in the book we do talk about where heard the voice of god and i thought i heard the voice of god with my own ears. whenever you read the book, you are with me through the full story can you know by the time that moment happens, life is

about as messed up as life can be. i wouldn't hold it against the trailers. it was a great day. but you exactly right. i was in my mother's mobile home, and, but i really believed that i was completely emotionally exhausted. i think my nervous system was complete and total wreck but i think i so desperate for direction and from the very moment that what you're relating is i've been asked to move 1000 miles away to des moines aisle to be a student minister but in our spring to get god's direction because it's such a big deal. looking back on it now i could tell that the moment i was asked, i thought i should do it. but i didn't want to do. they were so many parts of his that did not want to make that kind of commitment, didn't want to leave my family, didn't want to go through all this pain and struggle you go through moving that far. but there's another part of me, a strong bargaining the new i suppose to do. so by the time i get to the very

weakest state, emotionally and physically, i think it was just like a hallucination. at that point. and that was the reason why it was so much louder and clearer than all of the very strong impression that i have had years previously. but as far as reading the bible and feeling as if i sing messages from god, as far as the way that my speeches or my messages should be laid out, i think i was just actually going -- [inaudible] not a good reader but if they had good finding messages. >> one more question. [inaudible] could you do that? >> no. >> oh, come on. >> that's going to be a big event where do that publicly. i've always said i can't do it as long as my grandmother is alive. yeah, i definitely, i definitely

could come and i have. since coming to the conclusion to unicode coming to the realization that i'm an atheist and that's something that always trtooi out. anytime that i have the public's attention is that atheism is not a choice. it's the realization that you discover about yourself. and so even since then i'm still able to do. there's been some times it's happened spontaneously, obviously because i don't set out in evening to say i think i'm going to go speaking tongue. but i've a very emotional moments riding down the interstate with the music is exactly right, having an extremely pleasant and heartwarming thought, an old pattern, it's just an are logical pathway. just boom, just pops up. there you are. in fact it is very pleasurable. unless you're caught in public doing it. [laughter] who's next? yes, sir.

you said you were leaving earlier. >> my question is this. a lot of people are just, they are tied to religious beliefs, and they have just been brought up to think these things and it's going to be very, very hard to get them to think about things logically, rationally, reasonably. so i've heard a lot of times, being african-american, and americans are really, really tied to their british -- >> absolutely. >> for me, we are some of the most praying individuals i know. and given all of the praying that we do, you would think that our plight in america would be different, we would have some favor but we do not. so my question is this. how do you replace, because i

think with african-american from not necessary just african-americans, people who have like a historical connection to the religious beliefs and it's been there for years, you're going to replace it. and so what are your thoughts about that? must he be replaced with something? i'm just a person who i think we some in science. that's all i need. other people, it's about, they see patterns anyone say those patterns are something religious or something of god. so my question is, what would we want to replace it with or what do we need to replace it with so that people can let go of that? >> for me, that's a very good question, and for me there's two different parts to that. so we have to make it to boot camp what i'm talking, i understand, i'm long winded. the first thing is i don't think we have to replace it. i think that's something we need to get very well establish when the secular community is that the only reason we feel like we

have to replace it is because it is such a long-standing part of our heritage. had the religion never been in the first place then we would have to be forget what to replace religion with or religious experts is with. we be living a totally different type of life. i don't think we have to replace it, but if we choose to replace it, if we feel like we will benefit in some ways to replace it, what prayer that a certain aspect of prayer that i don't think can be replaced because when you pray, you truly believe and thus feel much of the attention of an outsider who is going to work on your behalf, whether he does in the way that that you want them to or not, well then there's no way to replace that if you don't think there's someone outside of our reality. so i just think that can't be done. but if instead what prayer is doing for you, it is centering

you and putting it in the moment, and there are many practices that we know from all types of culture that allow human beings to do that. that works just as effectively with our urology asperger does from our particular background. so i do it all the time. all the time when i feel myself slipping into a rut and incomplete out of control, i will do things as simple as whenever i place my hand on something new, like the coldness of this medal. i will bring my awareness to the fact that i am feeling this sensation and it brings me into the moment, and many times rare is able to bring into the moment and make you feel like you are transcendent and there's just and then ending array of practices that do that. for me, martial arts is one of them. >> [inaudible]

>> yes. >> [inaudible] >> exactly. >> [inaudible] >> is. >> [inaudible] >> right. and that -- you're right. no, you're exactly right. and what that is, that exists within a culture right now. what we are doing intentionally and unintentionally them with creating a new archetype. we are creating a type of person within our culture that does feel empowered, personally and part of the -- that may be very slow way to get your talking about going, hopefully, one of these days that will be common. that people feel empowered on their own. very good question, thank you.

>> my first question is moving forward, it's obvious you're taking different steps, so what is your vision for secular community? for folks in louisiana and the larger arena. and then my second question is, what do you say when somebody -- [inaudible] >> you like, i feel like to get pass out to answer the second one first. someone sneezed next to me yesterday, and it took everything i could not to say god bless you. and the only reason that i don't say god bless you is because of how bad, how mad it makes other people, other atheists. because i do have a problem with saying god bless you because i just it has words. i know some people do and that's fine, but i know, especially

coming from the deep south, i know that when all of the years, for 43 years when someone sneezed near me and i said god bless you, i know what i meant. and i know what it did mean, and what it did mean was may yahweh give you a bountiful harvest. you know? i mean i truly didn't mean for jehovah to bless anyone. it is just culture. and so i used that to segue into the first question. that i politically avoid that while enough? [laughter] to me this is about culture, and my vision is about culture. i -- golly, i'm going to get into so much trouble. i always do. there wouldn't be a book if i avoided trouble i guess. there's just so me thinks a part of the secular movement seem to be worried about that i just don't worry about. and some of them i consider to be truly cultural. and i don't see a positive

future, this is one going to get in trouble but what do i have to lose, right? i don't see winning for our side if we are -- i go see winning as the annihilation of religion. i don't. what i would like to see is for us to develop a culture where people can be comfortable being cultural christians just like there are cultural everything else. when you stop taking it seriously, where it's just part of their heritage, it's part of what they do on christmas or thanksgiving and they're not trying to vote in politicians who then enforce policies would all have to do the same thing. where it just consider cultural thing. remember the day when really took all that stuff seriously? isn't fun now we can just, whatever? that's what i see. in order to ensure first question my vision is, is to work within community. and a culture that already exist within communities. in lake charles we in this i

think people for us to start a secular church. that word right there causes all these red flags from exotic and gives people the shivers. and it will. it will for a lot of people because this is an, our desire isn't to create a new movement or to do something extraordinary outside of the movement, but just within the short year and a half that i've been involved in a secular movement i've realized this was already existing for very particular people with very particular personalities and don't want to meet that need. we will need a by looking at what is culturally significant. does it matter to people for the families to be able, for the mom and da dads and kids to all be e to go and attend a meeting on sunday morning? is that a cultural thing or is that the end of the world that leads to supernaturalism and armageddon? it may just be cultural for some people, and so that's my vision is to figure out exactly what will meet the needs of people within our deep south culture.

that's my vision. and so we've already found it the community mission chaplain. read our inaugural service in baton rouge just a couple of weeks ago. many of you were there and i appreciate it very much. i hope that answers it. that's a good question. unfortunately, it's a tricky question because the question was where are we going to meet in lake charles? what we are already finding is just this idea, the media of course friend an atheist church, which there's no such thing as bad press so whatever. that's not the way we look at. we look at it as a church service that focuses on secular values. without any hint towards supernaturalism. the problem that we're running into is that there's so much backlash within the lake charles community that it's difficult to find someone that we can they are deposit to an know for a

fact they are going to let us come in and have service whenever all the protesters show up. and so are trying to work that out. will have our first service, won't be our first but will have our first service in lake charles at the end of august. so we will make sure everybody knows that. hopefully they have good insurance. >> [inaudible] >> yes, yes. it looks, it looks, i won't go as far as to say it looks like a pentacle shall service because that might be a little too much for everybody. but it looks like a really fun baptist church service. [laughter] i'm always counting on the baptist. it's a pentecostal thing. i can't say how many baptist of britain to me like onion, we love the lord, to. i know, but not as much as the pentecostals do.

so there's music like for instance, in baton rouge, we opened, we had jazz music playing in the background while everyone was fellow shipping and find a place. and it did open up this video, not a picture of them per say but the voice in the background of this beautiful tour through the solar system talking about how wonderful it is to be alive. that's the whole point is to get out, our culture is the absolute best, 50 within the united states, celebrate the moment and subverting life. and we want to continue to do that. that's something that a lot of our churches in the deep south are very good at, is also enjoying the moment and subverting life. so it looks celebratory. we have some fun music that people could sing along to, which was i think they're important. a lot of times you go to secular meetings and is more set up like a concert where everybody is just listening to someone else sing. a good church everybody is able to sing along so we did that.

of course, there was fantastic preaching. i'm not going to mention your guest speaker was. i thought he did a good job. and so it really looks like a church. it really does. and the message is about secular value. and about appreciation, appreciation of the moment that we are actually living in. but really our goal, particularly lake charles, what we say is if the spiritualism comes in, if a religionist shows up, it's all because of what they didn't hear or they didn't see happen. because it's not our desire to be anti-anything. we want to be pro-life. that was a horrible pun. [laughter] >> so any other questions? please. yes. >> i was curious about your

universalism. it's something you really chase that trying to make it work and you just have this natural, you want everybody to be safe spent i do, i do. >> you up with in the casas anabaptists can you could easily have gone that route. so where did that come from? >> they fooled me. they completely fooled me. at the kitchen table they fooled me. they misled me. you know, my grandmother, she really was in my mind the most christlike person to ever live and still is in so many ways. so growing up sitting at the table primarily because of her presence and her personality, i really did think that we love everybody. and so i wasn't even per se getting mixed signals because i wasn't getting into the pentecostal doctrine as a child. i knew that when a pentecostal lifestyle where we were the long sleeves, you know, didn't have facial hair and all those kinds of things.

but at the same time i watched my grandmother just without exception love everyone, and everyone was accepted to our kitchen table. so somewhere in the midst of being raised like that and her being my model for christ, i just naturally assumed that everybody was welcome at the lord's table, you know, as they were, not after some great long expensive initiation. that they were accepted as they were. so it really was, to my surprise at 17 when i began to preach the pentecostal doctrine and begin to pay attention to the messages that i was then hearing, that it was really difficult to be saved. being saved was a real task. being lost affiliate easy, you know, and so i've really struggled with the concept and quoting mike williams from houston, texas, i quickly realized that my heart was kinder than my doctrine. so i ferociously looked for

doctrine that supported biblically supported universalism here and they our e very easy to find, and there's a good bit of valuable christian history that would make you believe that many of the fathers in the early church were universalists, that they saw the sacrifice of christ as saving all mankind, not just those who lined up to the right. so universalism was very important. every time that i would hit a stumbling block, as far as say even the bible and it being fallible, that only drove me closer to what i thought was relationship of god, not for the way because i was looking around and it was so obvious, and to me this is one of those -- as

electronic is so obvious christian it doesn't work. i mean, it just is not working. it's not making the world better. it's not ending human something but it's not even making the participants their personal lives that much better. and so i kept thinking, but that doesn't mean that there's not some form of christianity that would again i was egotistical enough to think about a guy called in this day and age to figure it out. and to bring the world back to the true message of jesus christ. and i thought universalism was a big part of that for a long time. it's amazing that this much ego in such a small body your doesn't seem possible. >> i'll repeat it for you. >> [inaudible]

>> i think there's a lot of different services that already exist. like for instance, recovering from religious. they had even anonymous forums. you go to their website and didn't go into an anonymous forum much like were able to do with the clergy project, and meet people in a way that hopefully won't jeopardize your life at all. so there's a lot of different places. i've received recently fantastic support from the foundation beyond belief. and so that's what people really interested in charitable activities and that even though they're not out of religion that they may even be able to contribute to interfaith, charities that are trying to do good. a fantastic thing about the secular movement right now, even though the secular campaign, the fantastic thing about all of these different projects is that

it's really addressing the uniqueness of the individual. where it's often in religion its cookie-cutter and religion for my experience tries to shape into something that fits were right now the secular movement is so broad that almost regardless of what your personality is, or what your lives need is, you can find your niche and you can find resources to help. it's amazing all of the different resources. so there's truly something for everybody. there really is. i've been very impressed. let me go now, -- don't let me go now. i'm enjoying it. any questions towards our process of writing the book, since the cowriter is here. i would love to involve him.

of course we have the clergy project. we've got -- >> [inaudible] >> how did we worked together. do you want to take that when? do you want to come around? you come over to this if you want. >> the process. he asked how did we worked together. >> very quickly, will we worked together very quickly. jerry as maybe some of you know was in "the new york times" magazine last, was at august the? >> august, yes, of 2012. >> andy atchley got a number of book deal offers without a single sentence writing. >> there's all kinds of reasons to hate me. [laughter] >> i mean which, and i told jerry how incredibly rare that is.

like if you're a person who believes in god, for example, -- >> it's even better than the hospital story. >> better than the hospital story and getting book deal offers without a single piece of writing is foregone the hospital story. anyway, the receipt all these offers and was obviously looking for help and for putting this all together because you have been ministering and preaching that haven't been writing books your whole life. so we have government agent in common, and even though this is from this mean religion and atheism is not something i'm typically known for at all, our mutual agent put his together. mostly i think based on the fact that we both are down in louisiana. and, of course, the catch was

something great like getting all the book deal offers is that there's always something -- >> there's a trade off. >> there's always something else you have the kind of sacrifice, and the sacrifice was, given the high profile nature, the publisher wanted the project pretty much immediately. so yes, so we just said about skype just banging it out. fortunately, i think what's so remarkable -- remarkable about jerry is so magnificent, he's so great with words that the book was sort of preached out. [laughter] by jerry was actually, i feel like jerry always has, you know, i couldn't have done this without you, et cetera, et cetera and i just feel like it's kind of funneled at best for

jerry's preaching. but that's kind of the way the book works. >> [inaudible] >> not very long at all, shockingly. an actual number? let's see, like -- anywhere in the for -- >> four months. >> but that's not including editing and everything else. and that's not six months of everyday work, obviously either. that's over a span of the time. >> we a draft in about four months. >> yeah, really, unfortunate draft. [laughter] so yeah, penny, about six months. but it was the kind of thing that you're hearing and seeing now with his q&a session which i think is wonderful. it was the same sort of thing just talking to jerry.

>> it was therapeutic but it really was. in the very beginning i had this audacious idea that i might just put all of these words on paper and people can spell check them, you know? something like that. and that didn't last very long at all. it's so obvious that i put too much. i remember when the first times i collect 10,000 words to hopeafterfaith.com and he sent d about 4000 words and 50 question. it is so obvious i don't know what i'm doing here. and so over time, like you said can when we got into skyping, i can't tell you how therapeutic that lies. everybody should write a book, i mean that. even if you don't have a book deal, even if you're not an expert teacher, write the book of your life because it was so incredibly therapeutic. i feel so sorry for them because on skype i would be booming, oh, my gosh, you know. n.a.b. like it's okay. it's all right. take your time, take your time.

>> [inaudible] >> actually, the question was, would lly, the question was, would things be different if we had longer to write the book. actually i don't think so. i think that the structure of the book and the way everything played out, pretty much how -- >> how life went. >> how your life went, yeah. i mean, i of course and this is how i am with everything i do, like very, i'm always deeply unhappy at things that if you like could be edited in the end or its long our why did i use this particular word choice. but if you like that's writers regret, that you just live with everything. i actually don't look at any of

my books really ever for that reason it because i find really aesthetic but all i see in them is the things i don't like. so yeah, like we did the things like i would change? yes, absolutely. like i feel that way but i think i've ever done. by don't think it's the timeframe is relevant. if that makes sense. >> we were fortunate that secular to work him if you will, for a little while and since of several opportunities, i was forced by the opportunities to kind of think my way through the story. and so i will never forget the very beginning even like this is just insane can this could not happen, the timeframe -- i felt like it was because in the past you had to cool so much information out of other people is worked with. something that was a big benefit, the story was a better, you know, in some form anyway. but it is also very grueling.

he was helping go back and be like, what does this look like and what do you remember about that? i'm too old. it was so long ago, you know, it takes a lot out of you. you really relive your entire life. >> [inaudible] >> how was working with the jerry different? [inaudible] [inaudible] >> so the question is how does not, like the comparison of my past experiences an

investigative report an investigator compare with working with the jerry, and the answer to that is, i thought all a bit about it. the answer is on the one hand, it's vastly different, particularly on the investigative reporting side where like i've written three investigative reporting driven books about specific crime, and those books were all like unbelievably difficult to put together because i was dealing with dozens of people to interview, thousands of pages of like court documents. people who are very angry with me for contacting them, people who wanted to kill me, things like that. so like on the one hand it was very different to be able to just have a single source obviously being jerry, and have that single source be available all of the time. that actually made the process,

like remarkably easy by comparison to my past work. >> and i was in the criminal. >> yeah, yeah. so that's how it was different. but in terms of being the same, with english the me is again, my background isn't about religion or writing about secular communities, but the thing that i really liked about jerry and his store, and i didn't find this out until it's are working with jerry was how driven by humanism jerry is, and how unwilling he's been to this day to write off people in his life who had vastly different meanings than he did. and that really struck a deep chord with me, particularly, like after i wrote my last book, i became an investigator in the

death penalty community. and actually in some weird way i feel like a lot of these people a day with our -- not the defendants or the clients of the world around, i feel it's very, very religious people like all of the time. and i've a deep love and respect for those people, even though i don't at all share their view of life. and i think just when you're talking about, your love of them, you can't even though, you know, ideologically is a much how i feel about a lot of the people that i work with day to day. i think that i encounter some of the most forgiving and loving unbelievably caring and beautiful people in the world, almost on a daily basis. it's my job, yet they are at an ideological and religious place

that, you know, a different universe than i met. reporting stuff isne handti vastly different than jerry, but on the other hand, my emergence in this world into a criminal investigation in louisiana, around religious people who i love also, disney that connection to jerry's experience. it's the hardest part of the book for me. i don't hav have a lease fairclh have a least favorite but if i squint of the least favorite, that would be because it's an important part the story that needs to be told. but it's the least flattering of every encounter that i have i think throughout the entire book but and it's very, very hard to tell both sides of that particular situation because i didn't love them all so much. anybody else?

>> what's coming to my mind, i told y'all -- [inaudible] i'm attending an episcopal church. i like the music and architecture, i read the book, the affinity of doubt, f. lee bailey thought he was the best attorney in the country a prosecutor over 200 cases, all lost two, but he is ex-catholic, but his book is arguing that neither can prove their case. i read the book -- i can't remember the title. my memory is not like it used to be. like i have the family history

of alzheimer's. he was arguing that, well, he starts out with we're struggling with spiritual stuff, so we starts with the material world and shows how modern astronomy and physics, material world is not at all what we think it is. subatomic particles can be in two places at the same time. and he says that the united states is not listening to what's being said. talking about 11 dimensions, we only experience for, and so on. so i guess what i'm saying is, it puzzles me how can one secularists say there is no meaning beyond what we

experience with our senses, so to speak, given all this? it's very disappointing when one concept of god is disillusioning for us, but does that mean there is no other concept of the meaning of life in the universe? >> that's a fair question, and i did it all the time. because it is such a good question. i have a little creepy that i say, and that's the worst in some people don't like but i like it. and it is that skepticism is my nature, free thought is my methodology. agnosticism is my conclusion and that's the answer to what you're saying right there. that after 25 years of spiritual pursuit, i came out on the other end of that, agnostic, something i know i don't know i don't know if i will know. and so that's my conclusion.

and then the end of that creed is that atheism is my opinion. now, is at some time they are able to crack quantum physics to such a degree that the laser pierces through the 11th dimension and bounces off of the face of god and we get a picture of jesus, in my opinion will change. but until that happens, it's, then it's anything and is simply a penny. the other fact of that is that theists and atheists are not coming at this from two different directions. theists are making a claim and atheists are not. 80s are sentencing i don't see evidence for your claim. that's it. so that equal and are not balanced as far as being two different arguments. >> [inaudible] >> no. the '80s is think i don't see one. the '80s is think i don't see god. no one can ever say there is no 12th dimension where god does love, but since we haven't seen that yet, then we're going to do

our best to enjoy what we are experiencing. and enjoy what we can enjoy. obviously, there are all different -- all different types of atheist who said all different types of things, based on the personalities, but a person needs, if they're going to engage in these discussions, they really need to become very clear about what the definitions are and what the definitions are not. outside of that is really cultural things that play against each other. >> [inaudible] >> is there any other atheist besides -- [laughter] there's a couple of others.

>> [inaudible] >> and i can appreciate that. there's a lot of different arguments that people make, i'm afraid some of them stand to the actual argument itself. sometimes we look so far outside of the scope of what we are actually talking about that we completely lose contact with the actual subject. and the actual subject is, is that by and large a these are people that if they use the phrase i don't believe there's a god, they don't mean belief in the form of choice the same with the people choose by faith to accept the doctrine or to accept something supernatural that they can't prove come instead their simplest thing i've been honest with myself and i honestly just don't believe that.

and so it's totally outside of the realm of religious experience, but in our very bipolar culture, and bipartisan culture, we're never going to do that. we will always, the argument will always bounce to make her own point. >> [inaudible] >> the king is alive. >> [inaudible] [inaudible]

>> sure, okay. >> [inaudible] yeah, there's --

>> [inaudible] >> sure. >> [inaudible] >> there's no doubt that. >> [inaudible] >> i think of civil. i think we don't want to die. we never been said, we don't want to die. what do you say, are recalls? is the time for one last? does anybody want to do any housekeeping come anything good? thank you, sir. >> thank you, jerry, for really thought-provoking discussion today. [applause] >> and jerry will be happy to sign books writer at the table. we have books inside. so thank you all for being here, and a wonderful evening. thanks very much. [applause]

>> fifteen years ago booktv made its debut on c-span2. spent love, death and money come these are the three main human concerns. we are all king students of love. we are fascinated by every aspect of the matter in theory and in practice. maybe not quite as much as ken starr, but fascinated. spent and since then we've brought you the top nonfiction books and authors every weekend, more than 9000 authors have appeared on booktv. including presidents spent i wanted to give the reader a chance to understand the process by which i made decisions. the environment in which i made decisions, the people i listen to as i made decisions. and this is not an attempt to rewrite history. it's not an attempt to fashion a

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