it was a very old political ally of fdr and played a huge role in the nomination in 1932. she has developed relationships with what we would, you know, five years later call zionists. and she is appearing in sin -- synagogues especially in communities where there have been violence. what she's doing is this dance. you know, this dance between using, you know, not assailing of the government's tamarty in refugee policy. in my day, but she's making it very painfully clear on the ground where she stands. ..

here are some programs to watch this weekend on booktv. talk about the body economic recessions, budget bat leer and the politic of life and death. on sunday at 8:15 a.m. eastern. we bring you a program from the booktv archives. in 1999, mark author of "black hawk down" sat down with

booktv to recount the 1993. treasury war. the unleashing of new era of financial warfare. visit booktv.org for a complete television schedule. samuel taunt the flight of coptic christians living in egypt. the authority said native cops in egypt have been persecuted under conservative and lib call governments in the country. he spoke about the situation in syria. >> thank you. it's a anonymously influential actor in the washington policy debate. i'm privileged to be here to talk about sam's book. let me make an announcement on behalf of nina and hudson. they want you to keep your cell

phone on here. turn them to silent, but tweet as much as you would like. [laughter] it's a privilege i was saying to be here to talk about sam's back. i'll at the outset. i'm a sam tadros fan. it's an outstanding book. i want to make four points. what we're going do in the procedure here offer a bit of a book review and make four major points and discuss these with sam. and then we're going to open it up for discussion and debate with all of you. but i get, first debate observation about a gem of a book. it's not just an insightful and sensitive look at the world of coptic christianity. sam has written a brave book. it could easily have been in

"motherland lost: the egyptian and coptic quest for modernity." merely a lit any of prosecution. i say merely with a sense of enormous tragedy, because that would have been justified. cop versus -- the list go on. the legacy of persecution and tragedy on top of persian and tragedy is so profound that that alone would have merited a deep history by historian like sam tadros. sam goes further than that. he also frames his narrative in terms of continue versus continue. a brutally honest portrayal of

the internal divisions lady versus clergy. pope versus bishop. rich versus poor. accommodationist versus communalist, et. cetera. sam bears it all. he bears the external history of tragedy and persecution, as well as the internal tensions which have been at the heart of the continuic story for almost two ma less than yum -- it was a tail of entry among pope of metropolitan. but it is a story of texture and depth. it is a remarkable story that sam portrays in all dimension. i think it's a courageous story for doing that. sam's book secondly, is courageous in another way.

he takes on the pillar of accepted -- albert, for example, and he rescues them with delicate sincerity and precision and subtlety. the target, first and foremost, is the conventional idea of egypt's liberal age. now there's an awful lot ofs no one piece, for example, concerns the idea of a golden age. the idea that muslims and jews live together in peace and harmony about a millennium ago. the golden age was limited in both time and space. an really an outlier. how to it's important know that until recently it was always better to be born a jew in muslim lands than to be born a jew in christian.

that's a different story for a different event. similarly, there's a conventional are are in -- narrative about arab history concerning liberal age. not a golden age. a liberal age. especially egypt's liberal age in the early decades of the 20th century. the the constitution, et. when muslim and cops banished their sectarian and religious identities to forge a single people hood. this remarkably timed book explains an eye opening fashion how there's more fiction than fact. that idea -- that idealized idea as well keeps playing. how the idea came to be. explain how some bought in to the idea.

why; therefore, this idea of a liberal age never truly liberal persists until today. that gives rise to some of the a historical nature of the egyptian political ghat exists today nap brings me to a third key point. because this very thin tone explains an enigma behind today's headlines. explains an inning in ma behind today's politics. why is it? here is the enigma. what is it that the secular elite that went in to the street in january and february 2011 to force the ouster of one long time general today is the same secular elite behind the

empowerment of another general. and the crack down that is now underway against the partisan of the former president and the muslim brotherhood. how is that that same secular elite fought for liberalism and democracy. two years ago, and today supports -- you call it whatever you like. it's difficult to say it's a liberal and democratic movement in egypt. again the forces of darkness and the muslim brotherhood. all in the name of reform and change. the answer as sam masterfully explain not knowing that the book would be coming out in the middle of the moment. it the answer that sam gives is that the process of political

evolution in egypt is almost the opposite of what we think is the process of political evolution here in america. for us, government, the very idea of government in the american idea, the idea of government is to limit the power of the state. and our freedoms as much as anything else, our freedoms from government, from the abusive power of the state. sam explains brilliantly in egypt freedom, liberalism, independence, actually springs from the state itself. the state is the giver. the fount of education, of opportunity, of rights. the state the source perhaps this harkins back to the -- perhaps it is heart attackens back to mohammad ally.

perhaps it is harkins back to whatever. it's a different source of political dynamic than what we are used to here. if you believe that the state is the source, the giver of rights, the protecter of liberties, then empowering the state and empowering the strongest arm of the state, namely the military is sort of the height of what it means to be in this context liberal. because the state is the source of freedom. it turns on its head the way we understand it here in america. but it makes perfect sense the way sam has explained the egyptian dynamic. by supporting the supreme sincerity of the state against projobbingtive and terrorists is

in the egyptian political discourse to be liberal and free. read this book and a loo ought bulb go off over your head. explaining what to many american might be unexplainable. that's a real gift. fourthly, i want to make a comment about what comes through as a sense of personal tragedy. only at the end of the book first in a footnote then just one reference in a text. do we meet sam tadros himself. as part of the story of a historic exodus. part of new dynamic that turns on its head 1900 years of history. and begins begins with them embarking on something totally new and unknown.

one of lewis' many insightful observations about muslim life in a contemporary area has do with migration. for 1300 odd years. muslims never voluntarily took themselves from lands of muslim control andmy grated to be minorities in lands of nonmuslim control. that changed, professor lewis noted, in the middle of last century with the movement of muslims from turkey in to central europe, north africa, in to french-speaking europe, and the subcontinent in to british help territories. that trend was only 1300 years old. we have one even older. which is now just beginning to

get underway. the movement of cops after 1900 years from -- , i mean, to say their historic homeland doesn't even begin. it's super official way to say it. women in to the muslim ore are a. now as sam notes with regret, sadness, and a sense of the unknown. now they have begun the great immigration there are now 550 churches outside egypt. christianity is growing church. except it is dying in egypt. because of the repression and persecution. combination of state power and islamic extremism.

where does it lead can a couldn'tic church survive without a strong pillar. survive without much christianity in egypt. it's a tragic question to see ask. but sadly as sam notes, this is not a hypothetical. sam, for your courage in addressing all of these issues, and with the world around, taking on the pillar of the establishment of middle east historians nor explaining the unexplainable about egyptian politics today and asking the tragic but urgent question about the future. thank you, thank you very much. i commend this book without

reservation. [applause] it's hard to commence on the kinds words and comments about the book, i've known robert since i came to washington in 2009, 2010, when i met him for the first time, but as a younger egyptian, perhaps one of horrible beginning, i was following him program from -- [inaudible] where he would have the guests from washington and to explain washington basically to the arab world. it was a different program from the one things used to watch in the region. in the region, we have the narratives about what happens in washington. the conspiracy that take place in washington. but to actually see washington,

see the policy makers commence and debate ideas, that's something very different. i think robert has grasps or has presented really the what the book is about. it's a complex story. when say that first asked me to write the book, it was both for me a great joy and in a sen, one that i -- with very great reluctance. it was an excellent series of books that includes such acclaimed authors such as troy hill, vernon lewis. it was also a challenge in the sense they personally had attempted my life to stay away from the issue. my political idea have taken me far from it to first being a baptist at the young age to the

promise of liberalism after that. all of that and i had attempted to deny that identity. in a sen i had fallen prey to the liberal narrative that i now attempted to deconstruct. there was a choice to be made. you could be an egyptian -- you couldn't be both at the same time. there was a conflict there that one to choose one side. writing this book was a fascinating experience. perhaps a personal journey for me along the way. i discovered things i didn't know about the egyptian history. the basic narrative you are taught in egypt a about basic history. about the story of the liberal age. as many other things even the church's official narrative is different from what you see? those stories as you research them. there are two dominating

narratives in explaining the situation of it in egypt. the first is actually that of persecution. they have always been persecuted. the roman, the arabs, internally suffering. the climbing in numbers throughout the century. the other narrative, of course, is that of national unity. they have always left imperfect harmony in egypt. it's only the evil foreign forces that attempt to divide them. to wedge the differences between them. the first narrative, of course, removes any agency from them. that's something i hope people feel. they have been persecuted in egypt. in the years of the decline in learning you get demand like

[inaudible] suddenly out of nowhere only for seven years and the first modern schools for females in egypt. he imports the presenting press from europe. the second in the country. he starts reforming the church as an institution. he starts educating people. when we look at egypt's prime minister twept or thirty years after that four of egypt's future prime minister graduate from that main school. when the narrative of persecution is fair. you also get the store of endurance of the people. of agency on behalf of people. of people choosing to shape

their own future and church. when we come to the modern times of the complete decline of the church under the pope. this was the late 14th and early 16th. he admitted how young he is. choose the life. it was a very successful he leaves it. when they got church --

it's a very different story from one of the internment persecution. it's an in a sense the story has been one of two -- yes it's the story of decline. it's one of survival. yes. it's a story of decay. it's one of -- you see that when we remember that the moment christianity, throughout africa only alexandria stands today. the places where things -- [inaudible] no longer know what it is. there's something there about to endurance of church and people. that's the first aspect. the second one is also personal story for me. the conventional wisdom about

liberalism in egypt. if you're an egyptian lib are a. i use it -- you believe that egypt has an -- enable and destroyed. growing up my basic question if it was so great where did it come from? the first place? is it a coincidence that -- spiritters or grew up in the liberal age. we know at the same time another person, a big younger started another organization. the muslim brotherhood in 1928. the two main salafi organizations in egypt, 1913 and 1926. the movement in egypt starts in 1930. is it such a consequences den that this golden age of liberal age in egypt we get all the

movements. doesn't that mean there was something wrong wrong there? doesn't it mean there was something there. it's been a personal quest in a sense to find an answer to that. what was it that was wrong with the beginning. where did egypt go wrong? from the beginning or the middle? where did we where did the instructive path we are set on begin? the conventional wisdom there were great -- they had imported the idea of europe attempt to modernize their country. then something happens. often historians call the late 1930s or' 30s in general a crisis of orientation in

egyptian history. a new emerges that trajects not a lot of explanation. but trajects this orientation toward europe. in 1938 of the future of education in egypt. often given as the turning point of history. is there warning? egypt does not belong to arab or islamic world. no one ever talked about -- belonging to it. egypt became islamic for some participate of the arab world. that's the moment of supposed change. perhaps the only history book ever written about egypt attempted to challenge this was a book by historian. who wrote challenging that narrative and explain looking at the intellectual historically of egypt. what was going on there?

something very in different in a sense the albert. my intent was to go even more in-depth than what they had done. to look at those early stories of liberals and where they came from. saints looking with the relationship of the with state in a sense explains the failure of liberal i. in the past, and the current predicament in in egypt. the first modernizers. i think that's the best word. mohammad abdul, mohammad -- [inaudible] or any of these thinkers they are modernizers and not necessarily. the question for them was how go we catch up?

napoleon dime egypt in 1798 and it was beginning to crumble. what went wrong? why have the europeans advanced and we haven't? why is that those men we had met decades earlier, centuries earlier as crusaders turned to the modern frenchmen. what is it that happened in the mid that changed this? and the beginnings, you see the beginnings of answers by the rulers and those thinkers emerging within the state they begin the process of modernization. the case to an army is the current joke that the egyptian army has a state. well, that's mohammad ally's. so focused on building an large army.

do they have nod earn weapon i are? we'll have some as well. there's a famous story about him ordering books. to translate to read for him at night. and someone talk about translating mack ceilly's difference. and mohammad allie the book is translated every day. ten pages are or day by day. the man listens to the first, second, third, by the fourth day he said stop. i listened for three days thinking can learn something. i have no use for the book. i know, so many more trick than he does. that, in a sense, is the crisis. because in reality it was not a

book about tricks. it was -- [inaudible] he was the break with traditional, historical philosophy. that part grasping the idea behind it. his grandson is nice. he tends to copy the outer layer of civilization. they have nice opera houses. we'll have opera houses as well. they have nice buildings, we will as well. i had asked his assistant to write one and doesn't read it. he discovers he committed himself to promises that he never knew he wanted to make. which forces them to go to a

dispute with the authority company then take the issue to that poll began iii. another capturing the attitude looking what the world becoming part of the world meant. when he was basically all european countries have empires, women, so do we. we should have one as well. he embark on the war. upon the army leaving cairo, he looks to the europeans standing there and said my country is no longer in africa. it's now part of europe. those attitudes then meet the shock of europeans actually -- three years for episodes in the form of french innovation, but in the form of the british innovation that occupy the country from 1882 until 1954.

.. in fact science was richer in the islamic world than the middle ages than it was in europe so there's nothing really wrong with this, of itself. it's been corrupt throughout the centuries. we need to return to the

original form of that in order to advanced against. they don't have time for this. they don't believe that those earlier generations developed for much it emerges happened after for their future. for them it is about europe. but how do you deal with the question of islam? the answer for them is simple. partly they have two sides of them. part of it they get from the man who was the founder of egypt and not muhammad ali and the other part of the get from darwin and the ideals of social darwinism. they get the idea that religion is problematic in the public's sphere and we need to keep its signs. we can't even attempt to modernize religion because we

have seen what happens when he tries to do that and the battles he faced from the atom that modernization. so islami is in a sense about what is better left untouched or else it will explode in our face. but from social darwinism who they get the idea of the world is coming to change in the future. who will talk about those issues when we look at the eda date in the constitution of 1923 when the issue of proportional representation was suggested and had a special occasion to them and you read the arguments done by the great liberal thinkers and was basically now people care about it. in 20 years' time no one will think about christian and muslim. these issues will no longer be on the agenda. people will disagree about more

important issues. but the general attitude was islam is a problem better left outside of the political sphere completely and in a sense it was also a reflection of the secularism. these men were completely enchanted. no one talked about an american secular model whereby religion can be part of the public's sphere. religion wasn't even to be banished from it. it is only with an understanding with islam as a problem with as they would have articulated it in a special room. it is only with understanding but that we can understand the muslim brotherhood slogan islam is the solution. it is the direct answer to look at the other liberal thinkers formulation. these men, those modernizers had

their eyes only on let's catch up. catching up is problematic for any country because no matter how much you try, the other is not standing idle. the west is advancing itself. so we import some things from them and try to advance and they move another five years ahead, another ten years. how do we catch them? naturally the answer is we can depend on individual initiative. only the state can manage a complete modernization of the country. only through the means of the state can we actually become like those people that we had my ear and heat in the west. so the natural attitude is we need the states. and if you are one that your job is a civil servant, and your basic conception of the world is the state is the one to change it. no one is talking about limiting

the state's power no one is discussing the individual with the collective and state. the rise to liberalism is that there. whatever liberalism exists comes from people whose life revolves around the state so it's no surprise that there is a formulation about the future that comes from that. and since you believe that only the states can modernize egypt and can only make it better that is the only entity that you can talk to. why bother addressing those ignorant masses that you lived upon? why bother convincing them with your argument if all you need to do is talk to the one man, the ruler? the man that will manage the

modernization forcing its population? so the natural tendency of separation from the very country that you live in the emergence of get the tendency to disguise the people that you live among. when you see the crisis of the liberal constitutionalism as they lose the first elections to one of their fellows who uses a populist message to completely when the masses. and you've read their arguments. they are not different from the arguments that today self-proclaimed liberals are preventing. when you read today one of egypt saying people shouldn't be allowed to vote. well that isn't something very different from what his fellow thinkers were saying to this of the crisis, the attitude to throw upon them to only talk to that who will enforce that

change. that is there from the very beginning. so they caught the church as mentioned is growing outside of egypt. when the pope became the pope in 1917, he had to churches in the united states. one in l.a. and one in new jersey. when he died in 2012, he had 202 churches in the united states of america alone to bit out of 550 abroad. we know there are about 2,000 plus or minus inside of the jet. so we are talking that there are today one-fifth of the churches of the church for the country where it has built its identity. and the grants or immigration has started from the 1950's it's

their ideas and the feeling that they no longer have a place in the country. the masses often portray the secular ruler surely he was against the brotherhood with a different perception of what the states nationalist project should be. but his era wasn't that kind. why many for example of lost their land as part of the project not a single christian received any of the land distributed to the country. there's something there to be the education was slowly being islamize by the education of the time for the fellow member of the regional team the changes as an institution what's happening from the 50's. to get their officials support

for the nationalist project he was willing to provide for the religious education. we ask the members of the students ricing free to become something like 1952 to 1.9 million students today whether the university that growth is growing around the society going on. and with so dhaka then comes the rise of the islamists, then comes the threat in the universities and the daily life the islamist insurgents he later on under mubarak. so these are all to leave the country. some of them seeking a better future like their fellow muslims while others it is the question of religious persecution that is surprising then.

and that community has only grown since feith arab spring. i am a pessimist. but there might be a more space eject sometime in the future. but some things that are happening today are very hard to change. once people leave egypt and go and choose new lives in the united states or canada or australia there is no going back there. no one is going to go to america and then go back to eject. we are seeing a humongous demographic change in the middle east to it and it's one that is really hardly noticed by anyone. the middle east in general is one of religious freedom to get the one that we really talked about the national security

issues. the religious minorities documented the beginning of the 20th century the region was about 20%, 33%. the jewish communities by egypt, iraq, morocco, everywhere in the region the christian communities everywhere. the different religions all of the mosaics that had transcended time and survived the modern times. while it is no longer that picture today the middle east outside of the state of israel is 3%. 3%, the largest absolute majority. beside them, you've got the lebanese maronites, you've got the assyrian christians and what remains of the iraqi christians

after two-thirds had already left. we are talking of a huge demographic shift in the region. the very fabric of it is what one needs to know. the religious minorities have played a very important role in the past. when one thinks of the revival of the arab language, one has to return to the work in lebanon. the nationalism one has to go back. they have to think of the palestinian egypt thinkers. all of this might be lost it's not just for the catholic church. the challenge isn't just for the catholic church. the challenge is also for egypt

and the other countries in the region. the loss of christianity from the region is one that will have implications. people talk about the growth in the region. sure that is an important demographic change but there is another one happening that people largely don't focus on. for the catholic churches a blessing and a challenge. the church is flourishing outside of egypt's borders, but it is in a decline in sight of the country. i wrote an article in today's wall street journal about the loss of one of the ancient churches in the country. a church from the 445th century that have withstood the test of time. generations had passed to the arab dynasties and today it is no longer in egypt to read it is the percentage of egypt is perhaps much larger than that of the previous community that was kicked out of the country.

the country's jews. savitt is naturally the people think what happened to the use of egypt cannot happen. the jews after all for the largest estimate from 80 to 100,000. surely when one talks about the cost there is no room in the west or anywhere for six or 8 million. surely they will all stay. and naturally, this change wouldn't have it or not suggesting that would have been in a day or two to aid but if we see a continuation of the current trends of immigration where they are not only going through the places they traditionally went through in the united states and canada and australia but also my village in egypt were going to georgia know it is the u.s.s.r..

there are about 6,000 now in georgia. why? because it's cheap. because it is an easier place to go to than the west. my local catholic church here in fairfax virginia we had a community of about 3,000 before egypt's revolution. we are now a community of 4,500. we are opening smaller churches and arlington and other places because of the influx of refugees. this is a challenge to the church that it is perhaps extremely unprepared for. in a sense the church has transcended and survived persecution. but how do you deal with an open market competition within the christian denominations? how do you deal with the challenges of the modern world of atheism, of all of the drugs

used, all those problems that are not at the same side in egypt as they are in the immigrant communities. what does it mean when egypt is no longer the place you call home? what does it mean if you are living in minnesota and philadelphia? what does that identity mean for you? what does it actually mean for the church if at one point in the future 20 or 30 years' time that the majority of its followers would be outside of egypt's borders? what would that mean for the very doctrines of the church? these are all challenges that the church will be facing in the coming years. as i've learned from writing this book, we are going to see this as in the endless story that we've seen in generation after generation.

the decline in the community, the failure also the survival of, the revival of others. that is likely to be the story that we continue to see in the future. thank you very much. [applause] very good. you just got a glimpse of the depth and the scholarship and the insight that is in the wonderful book. let's open the floor to your questions and comments. please, raise your hand, identify yourself, be brief and recognize you were being taped for prosperity. so watch what you say. i will open the floor with you. there is a microphone coming your way.

>> i've been teaching in china the last ten years. this is not an area of expertise for me. but i wondered in view of your remarks at the secular elite why there hasn't been anwar visible secular or civilian faith. can you hear me? >> i will repeat the question. >> have you for example the departure hall much of a secular elite really support this? >> i will turn to you. when you look at the e liberal elite whiteaker term you want to use, how deep is the support for the military intervention as of

july fair and the crack down from last week? >> i would say it's very deep. i think what's first define who these people are that we describe as liberals or secular. it's a generally different groups that only share rejection of the islamist project or fear of that project. you get the business community that obviously the year with the project might mean for the businesses. the cops are naturally afraid of that to the the the human rights community, the different leftist groups that you have in the country for example the revolutionary socialists. all of this, arab nationalists and all of these together. so the share different ideas. and perhaps that is a part of the explanation because they are unable to provide any

ideological counterpart to the islamists. but for them there is no other option but the military. the only people that have come out against what is going on in egypt have been the resignation and the previous parliamentarian and his articles in the newspaper to be outside of that there have been very few places that have rejected this by an area choice between the islamism or the brotherhood and the military. so generally speaking i think it is overwhelming support. >> what would have to transform this broad support for the military action into an effective civilian government that may eventually evolve into

an elected government. how does that transformation to place? >> it depends on whether they want to or not. the big question is you have removed the president from the muslim brotherhood from power. does anyone actually think you are going to allow them to win any evil actions anytime soon? of course not. or else you're basically saying you were going to lose your is the next minute. the muslim brotherhood wins the next election this would mean the head of the generals and politicians who supported it. so we are definitely talking about a system of competitive hypocrisy. can we call it something like that whereby the two of them take place but parts of the population, parts of the ideological fabric of the country is excluded from the political process and thus creating a fuss devotee in the

future. >> if under the new regime there is a ban on the party is based on religion how will that affect the community? >> the community would be extremely happy. you don't have the political parties at the moment or any time in the future. this probably some crazy guy that wants to do political work somewhere that there is no meaningful or significant movement into that regard. so the cost of the community is definitely welcomed. it will come a political process where its greater than any need of the most strengthening is excluded and it doesn't have a chance to dominate the political sphere. >> yes, please in the front. we will try again with a microphone.

>> i am from the willson center. my question for you is i am working also focusing on the fact looking at what is happening with the muslim minorities and then on the muslim minorities. my question to you is what is the curriculum like in egypt? because what i have found studying the curriculum is the hindu of other minorities including the muslim etc is all there from your islam party at a solution studies to pakistan studies. the minority is there for the moment. >> i don't think you will have something at the same level of what you have in places like

pakistan or saudi arabia which are familiar with the textbooks there and the amount of hatred of the others to it in egypt the one minister of education under mubarak for some ten years to a great attention, paid a lot of attention to this issue of limiting any hateful messages in the education and curriculum. however, the problem is much more of the people that educate themselves, the teachers. teaching is not -- it doesn't provide one with a very bright future. it's one of the worst schools to enter into the university basically. if your gpa is about that or if you are in high school not that good then you end up in the teachers department to read and the result is the quality of the people was very bad. and worse is that anyone that doesn't get the favor of the

corruption or from the bureaucracy and seven teaching and the areas away from cairo. the result is that it's no surprise the places where you get the worst extremism is the places where you send the worst features that is the south of egypt basically so when you go to places in the impoverished and so perhaps the poorest governor in egypt. that's where you get those teachers that are not well liked or well received in cairo and there for the messages that are given to the students are extremely painful of the other. it is outside of some well-known mosque in cairo. that isn't yet full. that doesn't curse the jews and christians on a daily basis to

that it's already in an assistant mythology. but me give a fascinating example classic priests wear black. the only wear white when they are provided mass or participating in the mass service. it is partly out of sadness that eats egypt is a muslim country and that one day the church holds that what they would renounce the black and the lights when they celebrate it is the longer is one that dominates the country when egypt is returned. as i mentioned they wear white in the masses. so you get a picture of the classic pope and they are naturally wearing white.

they are happy with a crew because now they believe the offended islam in egypt and now they can wear white again said the education and the mass media is built on the already existing for generations to say the least. >> yes, hello. then we will go to the back. >> it centered on islam. thanks both of you very much. i wanted to ask a question and for that matter rob. use but for the content that the modernizers had they had to

contend the was basically some degree on the fact that the fellow citizens were traditional and therefore they had relatively little impact on that segment of the population which was the majority. in the present circumstances, some substantial portion of that population turned against the brotherhood. in your opinion is there some new language whether they are a leader or not could now find a language that would be common to them and also to the majority of the population which would limit the future impact of the

islamism in whatever form it was backed. >> there's the experiments of the past. they found an answer against the competitors. nationalism using the populist nationalism as a means to win against the colleagues in the party that can the liberal constitution. it's against the populist nationalism. the details are different in each case from the national was on. but in a sense that is the winning answer that they might come up with and that is in egypt. in extreme xenophobia.

the edges of the man and the people familiar with what they see in egypt. the masses in the square with a general and above it called the marshall of the people. that kind of language. so i would say if what we term as liberals would choose that. it would mean that they would shed any liberal ideas to the >> i hope it's not a sign of false modesty to suggest i haven't the foggiest idea but i don't think the people who are at the height of running egypt today august 21st know the

answer to this question. i don't think they have a plan for a year from now, two years, five years, and if they don't have a plan, then i don't know what their plan is. >> i don't say that because i just don't know pity and i really don't think they know. i was listening to your brilliant summary of the history it struck me how similar it was to the history and almost felt the resilience and innovation. i was wondering if this was your take on that and number to order the relationships between those

in egypt? >> i think there are some historical similarities. of course until the modern establishment of the states of israel they have a diaspora community. one and even now egypt is still there so there is something different there in the stories. although when you look back at history and i discuss in my book one of the worst periods of persecution in egypt were basically you have the equine from something like 2,048 or 1,200 to 112 churches, the 400 year period complete eradication you see the usage of the propaganda very similar to what

you've got to words them in egypt and various programs. the relationship i would say has not always perfect. there has been a historical competition as the minorities in the region who get the job that the rulers allowed them to take. so the two communities had obviously competed in the past in the middle ages under the rule of islam. anti-semitism is a device that is spread throughout the muslim arab world not exclusively to its muslim populations meaning that many christians share extremely anti-semitic hatreds. part of it is built on traditional hatred that the church doctrine still have from the middle ages and something similar to what was going on

with the western christians. but part of it is of course an attempt to portray christians as more loyal to the country than others. once there has been a conflict with israel it was important for the church to appear as extremely nationalist and to appear that it supports the nation and so you can see within that decision to ban them from going through darussalam and visiting pilgrimage or any of these things. [inaudible] >> sharing the heritage but also

the region in which the arab spring. now you pointed out the fact there is a huge portion of the e egyptian population which are not representative of this point and will not be. duty await the transformation of the islamist movement in the region specifically is there an example for the islamist government which is good credibility in the municipalities to protect the traditional values but also the market's to regulate the country's and reduce which you also pointed out. do you see that this could be a possible for creating the movement which would come from the interest of egypt and of the united states?

>> that's the most important question of what happens to its muslim brothers and the larger islamist seen. i have no doubt that the military will win this front. but i also stressed that it is around meaning that this is not the end of the war. the military will crush the muslim brotherhood. there is no doubt they are willing to kill less money as it takes so they are going to win that for sure. the question is how to the islamists answer then the situation that they are in the? part of the question will depend on whether the muslim brotherhood exists as an organization or doesn't mean what they are questioning the leadership and leads to the disintegration among its members which each of them are taking separate to it i think there are three routes there in the future for the e egyptian islamism. first is turkey obviously where

you moderate the lesson against, and you provide a more moderate image of your party with new faces and u.n. according to the rules of the game and take it step by step until you transform and change society ten or 15 years after. so a slower pace than the brotherhood was attempting to do than just a matter of months. the second is naturally that of generations now would be affected by the same idea of the generations before them that you really can do it through the ballot boxes and there is no other way. we were denied our right for victory and we played by their rules and accepted the islam and therefore this is a state but

the basic arguments made we can only fight it through the woods, so the growth of the islamist insurgency have the perfect place for this to happen. it's also a perfect place next to libya with easy routes there. the funds might emerge as the insurgency there. and of course that is the message that someone is making. i explained that the muslim brotherhood is not the right one. and it's very important to keep in mind that he fought in egypt for 20 plus years. this is not some alien country. this is a place where the whole thing started. he started fighting against the internal enemy before joining the fight against the external enemy.

so if al qaeda is under pressure in afghanistan and pakistan, if it's a brand is no longer as appealing as it was ten years ago, what would be better than creating an islamist insurgents the that target's israel and we brand as the organization has won a fight against the zionist and gains massive support? so that is obviously there. third is perhaps a mixture of the islamism with the leftist ideas carries something similar to what they were thinking of the marxism in iran and could have touched upon in his work on the social justice and as long. so much more populist islamism that mixes the basic ideas with arguments of the poor people that fight against the rich and

powerful. i think these are basically the three routes that are there. they are not all contradictory meaning that it can largely happened at the same time. the majority might continue to attempt to represent itself in electoral politics while a significant minority would go and join others. >> if i could just add the turkish model i think people feel fail to recognize what a steep road this is. it was a half a century of strict secular rules stripping religion from all public life. this is -- egypt is nowhere near that experience will be for the opportunity for serious

electoral competition and even then, you had a couple of military interventions to squeeze out the most radical aspect of the islamic oriented party until you finally ended up after 70 years and that's when you get after that you experience. egypt is just not down that path and hasn't even begun going down that path the second observation in terms of the islamists turning to the radical path i don't think that the military leadership would necessarily oppose that. i think this is -- if this is what they choose, this is what the military knows to deal with. this was not -- this was a challenge of the state was able

to cope with in egypt over the last several decades. yes, they took down sadaat and it prevailed so much it allowed them to run politically which may have been a mistake in the view of the state but now what is the revenge of the state. so why don't think if that's what the muslim brotherhood chooses i don't think that the military would be so fearful of this option because this is what they know how to deal with. >> there is a gentleman behind you on your left. yes, sir. >> [inaudible] -- egypt and with its neighbors that go to support the construction of the maintenance of churches and the payment of

the clergy. >> question about tax revenues and payment. i'm going to ask you to pose your question. >> senior fellow here at hudson. well i am wondering about is your view of the egyptian military. and whether the brotherhood has any possibility of turning out in the streets and then entering a large levels of violence of cracking the egyptian military. is there any possibility that you could see groups of the egyptians and the military deciding they don't want to tell the people and they will go over to the muslim brotherhood side roughly on the model of what happened in russia in world war war i. do they have a prayer of any kind of help from the elements of the egyptian military?

>> i would like to pose a question to you not least of which by our host or an important role in promoting religious freedom. what do the cops want from america? what would they like to hear from our leaders, from our public officials. what is the best message that we could be sending? what is the most useful message that we could be sending? there you have four minutes and three ec brief questions. >> if i address the question correctly about tax revenues, none of the tax revenues go to churches. meaning that they are done and privately to churches but the government doesn't give a single penny to churches to read it does of course give money to the mosques and egypt and spend on the religious education to be the provides services for the

religious and educational. it provides trips for people to perform and there are many aspects of many elements that they spend on muslim religious education and religious activities. but none on cost. this is based on people donating for the churches. concerning the military, i think that is perhaps the brotherhood's best bet but it is one that has failed so far. partly i think because the army has so far made the police performed the worst crimes which of course they are more than happy to do so. so, but the egyptian police felt extremely humiliated and crushed from the uprising losing their dominance on the streets and this is payback time so they are happy to perform this on the

units the helping but mostly it is the police. if the level of violence is to increase and more of the units are to take part, the likelihood if anything might happen in that regard would be on the levels and not on the officers or the once active duty officers. they come from the egyptian society at large meaning these people one year ago were electing the islamists and egyptian elections with 72% as was the rest of the population so it's not outside the possible that might refuse to open fire on demonstrators. the army itself i don't they would be involved at that level that would create a crisis split

within the army. what do they want klaxon i don't think they know. partly the cops as a largely first-generation immigrant community in the u.s., they've not really learned how to operate in the american system. they continue to protest in front of the white house not realizing the policy actually happens inside the building and not for those protesting outside and that is a sad reflection of the state of the community. i remember we had a couple eve ensler we brought coptic priests and asked them that question would be want america to do and they do not have a single answer. partly it is because no one wants to advocate for the intervention into their homeland they realize this would mean a price paid by the cops looking

inside of egypt. they had a firestorm in egypt that forced them to remain at side of the country for a while. it's not likely to be very welcoming message when they ask for things for america at the same time it is a reflection of the coptic predicament. you are neither geographically concentrated in a single area whereby what could ponder the possibility of a safe haven of the federal system or anything of the sort. your numbers are significant but as a percentage of the e egyptian population you are not to affect the country's future. you're best hope is that egypt is inclusive for every one. the basic message the levesque of the united states is they

would insist on an inclusive egypt that is welcome to all of its citizens. when we look at the attacks that happened one week ago, an attack that is unprecedented we have to go back to the year 1321 to have that many have had on the same day. the muslim brotherhood obviously decided when calling for those attacks will love all of hatred and excitement is tremendous and obviously some of their members and others had exclusivity in those attacks but it's also not been their meaning anyone who actually works on the coptic issue it's no surprise that church was attacked in august of 2015. it was attacked in 2007 and 2009 and july, 2013.

of course it will be attacked again when something like this takes place. so the failure to protect the christians i think it's something that the united states has to stress that if you can be against the extremism of the brotherhood the first step that you can do the easiest is to protect the christians. >> please join me in thanking the hudson institute. [applause] please tell everybody about it. sam, congratulations.

macina it is debuting this weekend. the editor of "the new york times" book review. ms. paul what are some of the redesigns? >> we gave this whole issue a new look. the goal was to maintain we fundamentally are which is a book review to keep a number of book reviews and there, the length of the book review while i think the design looks more open and give it more accessible they are not shorter. it's a section for reading. but there are new features which i think will make the issue overall accessible, a little bit more relevant and hopefully unpredictable and exciting.

>> what are those new features? there are two major features watching in this issue and one is called the short list. these are brief reviews which "the new york times" book review has always run. but its group according to the genre's and the subjects to see so that it kind of takes the short review from something that deals with a bit of a second thought to something that says if you are interested in science fiction it really enables us to find a review were that has the experience and expertise and interest in that area that can give the books a strong and coherent review. so that's one feature. the other thing that we are launching this week is on the back and we have traditionally had an essay there for a long time from outside contributors. the new is called a book and, and we have ten regular

columnists who are going to rotate matched up in different pairs. the question that is out there in the world for the first issue the first question is are the novelists to weary of criticizing other novelists. there is a lot of debate whether twitter has made it too nice and fearful of the funding and whether the look world is so small and in such a desperate need of substance of that it's not right to criticize or to take another author's books down. so that is the question they are taking this week and each week it will be a new topic whether it is related to nonfiction or fiction or the wave of tv or poetry or translation or pop culture. and of these ten riders will always be paired up again in different combinations looking at that issue and trying to address it. it's not eight he said she said or thumbs up or thumbs down.

sometimes they might agree on a particular answer but because they are strong with different backgrounds and approaches they will write about it in such a different ways that we think it will make a nice companion to each other and the idea is that to really promote conversation and not only respond to the issues that are out there to generate the discussion because so much of reading is about recommendations and conversation and about the date and opinion. >> or some of the regular columnists going to be for book end? >> we have ten columnists and they come from all over the world both from fiction and nonfiction also criticism. zoe heller is in the first edition paired up with allen hirsh. zoe heller as a novelist known by her recent novel "the

believer" and the scandal that turned into a film. album is from a magazine and online publication and senior editor at the new republic as well as a published poet. we also have in the coming weeks dana stevens is a critic from slate and part of the media gawker group. jennifer is another columnist and france team has written more than 20 books. both fiction and nonfiction. >> that's a nice selection. we appreciate your naming some of those. one of the things you mentioned is the book world is or may be small. is the book world small and insular? >> i think it can feel that way. especially if you are in it from coming outside it might seem

like it is a huge in punishable force that doesn't let outsiders in. but what i want to do is open that up. i think that people continue to read in the same numbers that they always did. while the number of book reviews and newspapers in general have gone down i think people crave stories and that doesn't mean whether they are reading it on their phone or taking ebook out from the library. i think this is a conversation that people still want to have and they still want to know what they can read and what they should be reading. what is worth their time. >> what about nonfiction books? how does it treat nonfiction? >> well, it's usually important. in our first issue, we have some new nonfiction. we have read use by unthinkable. i think our readers look at nonfiction as much as they do

fiction i read probably more non-fiction than fiction so we are trying to devote as much space. given the limited number of reviews that we can write, we can include in "the new york times" book review traditionally has only reviewed about 1% of the number of books coming out in any given year. so it is about finding the both genres. >> pamela paul is an offer mazel was editor of "the new york times" book review and has written the starter marriage and future of matrimony, pornified and parenting in eink putative pamela what does "the new york times" book review mean treen author? >> it's huge. for better or worse it has become even more important, because we are the last freestanding newspaper book review out there.

it's different from the daily review where we have reestablished critics. the book review is a place where sometimes the reviewers will take a step back and look at the context, look at especially with nonfiction the area that the author is writing about and it is a hugely important review for authors. i know both the chollet of getting a positive review in the times and getting a very negative review. so why take it really seriously to the i know what it's like on the other end. >> does it affect bouck seals? >> you know, i think that if everyone -- if people out there knew what really affected book sales there would be -- i don't know, everyone would be a best-selling author. it's hard to know what it is that makes a book jump off the shelves but i think a very strong review from the times certainly helps and can often make a book to read in a

marketing tool that a lot of books use either on the cover or on their marketing material is a "new york times" best-seller stashed right across the front. how are the best seller books for me lead it? >> that is a highly secret -- that's like the coca-cola recipe. that's actually done by the news and surveys group at the new york times. so we don't have a direct involvement with the gathering that information. what we do read the book review is really present and we have columnists, we have a bookseller, a best seller columnist who kind of looks at the list and a broad sort of cultural perspective way. but we don't actually tally of the books. ..