>> [applause] we are delighted to have dr. get is with us here on the campus. welcome. our c-span viewers as well we are delighted.

to pose questions such as fundamental questions that os has put before the nation with people of good faith faith, how do we hold together with their defense -- deepest differences? how can relive together? how can we live peacefully together? differences can make us pretty uncomfortable the matter what our background. matter how open-minded. we hear things that we not only don't like but that we've very deeply disagree with. we hear things that make us angry that one to us to take action. how to live together since

we may disagree vehemently? now what we are hearing despite television or social media? we're very concerned so how we live peacefully with those differences? that is what this wonderful new book is exploring. said call for a global public square religious freedom in the making the world safe for democracy. join me again to welcome os. [applause] to begin the conversation let me begin with a very flattering review of your book from georgetown a very renowned leader of religious

freedom in his own right. and distribute to your new book says one of the four most religious liberties thinkers of our time he sets a soaring gold for the book to establish the vision of religious freedom so freedom -- sole freedom for to me and is in white he exist. os help us to understand what you mean by seoul freedom. >> the terms sold liberty was his great term and for me it is the right to reach, to hold, to exercise exercise, to change into a share based on the dictates of conscience.

you can see all sorts of false news their leaders who talked about freedom of worship and that is quite inadequate. what goes on in your head when your mouth is shut between your two years is not free exercise. or as you can see and much of the world today where religion and the the ready is a discounted. many people say what is this? not for everybody. freedom of conscience and thought and religion it is for everybody supranatural or naturalistic spee mickey frequently tilth into the public and was was an

intriguing treatment of the founding era, you remind me frequently we referred to jefferson's metaphor. at the wall of separation between church and state. whatever he personally believed or did not believe as the president of united states the largest tender of any church service in the united states and the roof of the u.s. capitol. he also invited baptista and episcopalians to hold a worship service including holy communion. help us to understand and take us back in time was

jefferson practicing what he preached? >> he is much understood today but going back to roger williams with the wall of separation but it was to protect the faith community. but the key thing is the does establishment of religion is actually at the heart of the uniqueness of america. with the founders did was to disestablish the church institutionally but never excluded faith from public life. that distinctive way held until the case of 1947 with the idea of strict separation for all religions should be excluded.

added to that we should exclude religion and then it goes with the atheist philosopher he insists to exclude religious voices of any sort that is highly either of them -- is a liberal but you have those who try to exclude all religion and distort jefferson's view. i as you said episcopalians even with church services of the white house including communion you cannot get more safer than that. he was not a strict liberation is like his followers today. >> host: why?

obviously there were political reasons but were there others that we know of that jefferson would say this is an activity to support? >> guest: he does say that as he heads off to church he is stopped and they said where you going to church? you don't believe and he said as the chief magistrate of i want to support something a you could see all the framers would have agreed with that with the northwest ordinance is a and so on and they really understood the golden triangle of freedom that requires a virtue that requires faith of some sort and that requires freedom of the framers agree on that as you have evangelicals late john j. and patrick henry

and those like george mason and then free thinkers like thomas paine but with face of public life is universal. >> what is the value they solve one dash saw? the founding generation that they were the skeptics or nonbelievers? but of course, there is no formal established religion that is what they denied but if you take john adams he is open about it entire society of a fiesta but a society because we're will lead to the virtues come from honesty and loyalty your patriotism? what is the highest

inspiration of any virtue? what is the solid teaching of the content of what virtue is? in almost all cases in a secular world view it is very strong in the jewish and christian world views. >> host: in your book with a global public square fear is a world wide perspective but you have identified pretty strong wing which what we see is violation of seoul freedom right here in the united states. one institution that comes in with harsh criticism is page one headed one through 104 you take them to task white you saw said of the

commodore of vendor built? >> since then they have been followed even most recently university of california entire system. they have derecognized religious groups not just christians and jews, muslims all sorts of religious groups they cannot have their beliefs as a requirement for membership. for example, when one group recognizes there are things white the amount of times to be in the group and then the four criteria but if you do that will you have muslims of other societies?

if you think of it it is absolutely absurd a very clear violation of people's free exercise to choose as leaders of the group they've welcomed everybody but as leaders of the group it is a simple matter of religious freedom. >> host: the supreme court of united states had a case on the hastings law school in california system. this is what patrons should be aware of with the implications. in to pick up in the 1980's with a blockbuster book called the naked public square the ada to eliminate religious references in the public every no. and then in the 1990's

stephen from a best-selling book from a culture of disbelief how american law and how would trivializes religion. trivializes. and arguing we can preserve the separation of church and state while embracing, not trivializing literally millions of americans. in more broadly. >> yet to visions with the naked public square excluding all religion then my of versions relatively mild the french are much more strict turkey as it was

under that system than very severe versions with the republic of china people were persecuted for their killed for religious faith especially christians and muslims but then on the other end the secret public square the sun is established is second-class or worse. about the mild version is the church of england. in many ways is on its last legs. year of strong ones like iran or saudi arabia. with a civil public square where everybody is free to ring gauge of public life

religious, secular comment christian muslim or psychologist but a clear understanding for everybody else to. the responsibility for both. i would argue for the notion of the civil public square over the sacred public square certainly the naked public square. . .

that tied of secularism combined with a strict separation as some and for example some of the jewish supporters are not acs but because of their experience in europe they understandably want something strict but secularism is very powerful because it is the dominant thing in the american university san through the universities in the media. so that is one end of the pool and i argue both extremes and the letter extremes and fellow christians have often been the extremist and the way they fought wisely creating a backlash against themselves. >> what are some of those movements or examples?

>> my critique of the christian right is it publicized the faith and by that they follow left wing in the 1920's. they trusted politics to do more than politics can do because politics is often downstream from the source of many of the problems which can't be fixed politically. neuhaus used as a wonderfully the first thing to serve our politics is that politics is not the first thing. it's important, but we can't trust it to do what it can't do. the second thing they have done is more of a christian mistake to put in the 19th century language they tried to do well wall of work -- florent work in the world's wheat. jesus told us to love our enemy and much of the christian right is like this until the greatest defection from the christian faith in all of american history

among the millennials and many of the younger generation and they are not just turning against the christian right they are turning against the face itself because they are so turned off by the ugliness that they seem. >> there is an oddity at least in our nation, isn't it, it would seem to me because of our experience and in the civil rights movement in a lifetime of not our students here, but certainly many of our faculty members and staffers. we lived through this and we remember dr. king very vividly not by seeing him in a videotape from jester year. we lived with him and we saw him and we read his letter in the birmingham jail to his fellow clergy persons deeply christian narrative is when he was lifting up. why should there be or why is there hostility to religion in the public square when it was so

efficacious it would seem in the civil-rights movement and then when we go back to your own country william and the great abolitionist movement of the 19th century, the greek evangelical movement reform movement also working on manners trying to improve the social wall of the poor society and in light of that social reform and civil rights reform movement both of them why should there be any hostility at all? >> because it is partly ignorance and partly prejudice hell religion plays in everything that is an absolute rubbish. if you look fossilization moly we all know the era of the inquisition and so on but take the gift of the christian gospel and the philanthropy giving, and

caring, hospitals, hospices uniquely western and they came out of the caring of the church. take the reform movements. you mentioned some of the recent ones. but the back to the banning of infanticide. throwing out bbc christians would pick up the bees and look after them. and you had these huge cities like a shopping mall of people caring for the needs of all sorts and then you had autonomy, standing games against the conquistadores and then the ones you mentioned with all sorts of other people like elizabeth fry and prisons. until the current generation, almost all of the great reform movements were inspired by faith in jesus and led by people who

were open as follows. now it's true today that you have what is called the movement of movements. you have secularist groups and muslim groups and british, all sorts of groups but it's absolutely ridiculous to ignore the extraordinary role of the church. take the health care mandates. no group in history has done more than the roman catholic church hospitals. so, buy cramping them and their freedom of they are doing simply anyone that understands civil society they are killing the goose that lays the golden egg and now they try to do this with olden policy and eventually they go out and there is no golden egg in the morning because they kill off the group's. it's foolish as well as incredibly ignorant. >> another book people rodney

stark entitled of the triumph of christianity and the - treating women with dignity and caring for am those who had been left o die. >> rob nei has done a huge amount to counteract that ignorance. >> what is now the religious freedom in the world you open that door. let's be clear that you are not talking about religious freedom of that throughout the book you make it clear that what you are talking about in the freedom billing on the roger williams great teaching and insight is freedom of thought, conscience, religion and belief.

so take us on a trip anything you would add to what you said earlier in terms of the state of religious freedom in the world today. >> let me start by saying why it is so urgent. as the world is globalizing and becomes more interconnected, many of these huge issues and the environment and technology and so what are all coming together. the intergenerational described as the generation in the sense of these converging issues. but underlining many of these other issues hell on earth do we live with our deep differences? the fact is the explosion of diversity in the world is set in my background of sociology people say everyone is now everywhere. that is a little exaggerated. but the media travel with people and migration and never has there been such diversity and more parts of the world than this today.

then you take things like say the internet. so, a public square was precious going back down below the apocalypse it was a physical place before rome. the u.s. congress, capitol hill, westminster and so on but that shifted. the op-ed pages in the new york times. whatever it is, that was also the public square. but now take things like the responses to the danish khartoum in the age of the internet even without speaking to the world we can be heard by the world and they can organize its response. said that idea of the public square becomes more urgent and we need to look around at the oppression and the countries like china or the sectarian violence that we see in the middle east or nigeria or pakistan. this issue is global the urgent

and not a pollyanna. as i see you have the united states which for 23 centuries has had as madison called it the true minetti. iowa but say it is the most nearly perfect solution in history. so the framers got it wrong at the very beginning. think of religious liberty almost right and the record is better than any country. america is squandering her heritage. not only that i think that she is failing to be a leader demonstrating how to do it at a time when the whole world wants to know how to do that key.

>> i'm prompted by the comment to remind those of us the case for some of the. and in that, he tells a story of a conversation that you have the dean of the business school but one of the most prestigious universities and the team, but china isn't enough asked you what am i missing? we are fascinated by the christian roots of the past in order to see what we can learn for china's future but you in the west are cutting yourself off from your roots. >> well we have been discussing distinctive features in the west. i mentioned philanthropy and reforms. you could take the rights of the university's. you could take the rise of modern science and then of

course the human rights revolution. all of these are distinctive and many of them are direct or indirect of the gospel. they were discussing those. but clearly we have unlocked. philosophy, science, and drama. all sorts of things but we have a great deal to the romans. and americans love rome and greece. we love them more than the romans, but they gave us a governance. and you can see how at capitol hill and in a senate and many other things. but the deepest things of all that we go to the hebrews and the whole notion of the understanding of god and his character and graphics and then humans made in the image of god and all sorts of things. now you can see we are deliberately cutting off those routes. so again when i'm as a student i knew bertrand russell.

agree to atheist and secular humanist. he would have argued you don't need the christian faith. human have dignity. but now you can see 40 odd years later many of the leading a the best thinkers are undermining the notion of human dignity. one article stupidity, the uselessness of the dignity. so you can see today that we are a cut civilization as one example. you could take the notion of freedom itself, let alone religious freedom. but in many of these areas we are a cut flower civilization to it i was reading a book this afternoon that said we are living off of a whiff of an empty bottle. something else i read last week we are living in a huge bankruptcy beyond our means. so there will be consequences of a civilization. >> what is the solution?

what do we need to do? you are a great and diagnostician. now what is to be don? >> first of all, by this book >> the state of religious freedom. that is what the book is doing. i hope it will contribute to the reaffirmation of the discussion of the primacy of the religious freedom but practically what can be done? >> first, america needs to restore civic education. everyone outside of america understands the motto. you have to have both to balance and you can see since the 1960's there has been a devaluation of civic education. americanism is corrosive or

people just neglected it. that needs to be restored because without it is increasingly balkanized. sometimes with the groups of business leaders and sometimes churches and sometimes you never since i ask people to give me the top ten things that are the american unum. anyone can hardly write down more thing to free. i mean, things like bill law, equal opportunity, freedom of conscience, put them down and they should be true of every american regardless of the country they come from and regardless of their background and their religion. those are the american human and if they are not restored, america is in trouble. >> this audience will remember that over a year ago justice sandra day o'connor was there looking at that very concern of the collapse of civic education in the united states. we are very happy that justice o'connor has anointed us as such

to work with the public schools on wall school for her -- law school and to focus y deep way how we can bring back the civic education in a very deep and powerful way. the state of texas has never abandoned the idea of civic education. we continue to require to the public schools. and i must also say we are very happy that here for 60 years we have require all undergraduates to take a course in the american constitutional tradition and the law. so, what justice o'connor and justice breyer would call -- and i heard justice david souter speak at least in post apocalyptic terms the collapse of civic education as well. so, that is one remedial step that we can all work towards taking. but another area that should be applied is immigration.

i've lived in d.c. for nearly 30 is not. immigration is the key date going on. the control of borders, the second language, economic this, that and the other. i never heard a single person mentioned sick education. but america needs the transmission of values in every generation. one is education, the older generation and the younger generation of public schools. the second is immigration. it's when people come in and they know how americans live with the means to be american and so on. it's not just a better job opportunities. it's something about being an american that's very important. some others have said this but it's almost lacking in the washington debate. >> we are going to return to the global public square. a gentle reminder that you are reminded to enter and write your questions which will be picked up. the national press club style.

what i want to turn to is a recurring theme in your book when you talk about the universal declaration of human rights right after world war ii. i hope he will provide a little bit of background on that. but you have this recurring rhetorical question. what does it say about us and our times that the universal declaration of human months could not be passed today? could you remind us all the universal declaration, what it means, what it meant, and why you have such a gloomy view about whether it could pass muster today? >> most people would agree with that in other words there was a very interesting convergence of great thinkers like charles come activists like eleanor roosevelt. so these great thinkers and activists did what they did

against the backdrop of the world order of the nazi death camps and was that convergence. people realize the extraordinary degradation of the jewish people and the holocaust and so on. now we don't have that today. since then, you can see there was no communist china then for example. one of the leading thinkers who is behind it was one of the nationalist chinese. the communists would be opposed to it. saudi arabia is the one that sustained. the only one that sustained on the declaration of the freedom of conscience. today they would be openly opposed and almost all of the muslim nations would be openly opposed. plus the fact we have to face the fact that the west has lost its moral authority in the world and some of its power relative to the rest of the global world. so it is unthinkable if you did it today.

now my concern in the book is article 18. it is a magnificent and a simple statement that puts the whole thing. you take some of the earlier and the earlier talks freedom of worship, absolutely inadequate in the light of article 18. and of course article 18 hosts everything to the first amendment so just people who are represented america should have known their own heritage let alone what is reflected in this great article. so i personally would love to see the reaffirmation of article article 18 and i collect religious freedom and accordion. you can shut an accordion and still call that a musical instrument and you can say religious freedom but when a new gun packet just like an accordion coming out you get music and when you say it's the

right to reach, hold, practice, share take a lot of the liberal opposition. sharing faith is at the very heart of persuasion and there's no argument against this that doesn't also undermine liberal persuasion. or the final one, to change. and you can see that is a capital offense and we should be standing for the simple but very profound truths in their form. >> in fact article 18 of the universal declaration specifically contemplates one's right to change one's religion. >> absolutely. >> which now in some countries would be a capital offense as you said. let's move into the global remedy which is the charter which you had no small hand in drafting.

the global chartered of conscience, living with our deepest differences globally. tell us about the charter, which is in the book. it is an appendix to the book. it's background and its purpose. >> those of us behind it are very realistic. it would never be put before the united nations today. it couldn't because of the confusion. so what is published in brussels, the term religious freedom was there and gave them an impassioned speech on its part and lifted any level it can. but very major opponents and lack of american leadership on a crucial issue. so what was our hope? we didn't have any utopian hope that this would sweep the world in five minutes. no. it was an attempt to reinject a debate about the religious freedom, not this wish he washy stuff that's going on now. a robust tough-minded the date

on religious freedom and to see it restored to its place as the primary right. as you take the three basic political rights there is no hierarchy. but the freedom of conscience, freedom of speech and freedom of assembly or association. they are interlocking. but obviously the association assumes and requires speech. you don't just want a hug but equally freedom of speech assumes and requires freedom of conscience. talk about the weather, you are free to of course, but free to talk about things that matter to you supremely because you are bound by the dictator of your conscience. now you all know that this is a good baptist heritage here at baylor but in many parts of the country it slipped. >> professor tom far who i mentioned at the outset makes an

argument that political leaders -- sinnott we are not talking about the culture but the leaders who perhaps are nearing the culture are entirely overlooking the need for a global effort or fight to support religious liberty. he says this and he was a career foreign service officer and had many diplomatic posts before he entered the academy at georgetown university. he said political leaders see religious freedom as an entirely private matter with few legitimate keywords, public purposes and in no sense necessary to individuals and societies. do you agree with what he says? religion at the culture. they are talking about political leaders. >> absolutely agree on that. you can look positively and see how countries have had religious freedom for everybody.

it's one of the keys to a thriving and robust civil society. or you can look at it negatively. countries that have religious freedom go a long way towards socked in sectarian confidence and violence and so on. so it's an incredibly important factor that goes way beyond religion. but the trouble was today that many thinkers in the west are tone deaf. that is the term. they simply don't pick up the music. the greatest sociologist. and he himself admits that to think about what you can't hear is therefore not there is what he calls an acoustic illusion. we all know that dogs and cats and bear it for what can hear things at a frequency that we don't and they say that many people insist the secular earnest world view, god is the supernatural and that's all there is so they are tone deaf.

they don't pick up the music by which most people orchestrate their lives. you can see sectors of society and as tom knows well one of the secular parts of america is the state department. and even madeleine albright said that. -- >> the secretary of state. >> -- distinguished. she said she had 100 economic experts, but only one person and the state department in her day who knew much about religious freedom. and the fact is it is the primary motivating factor of most of the world, most of the was really just a matter words. sam harris, the end of face. that is utopian. that is totally irrational. >> what's he saying? that face is at a dead-end? >> and will disappear. anthropologic kleeb, sociologically there is no solid argument to say that feith will

disappear. as a follower of jesus there are many faiths in the world some of which i consider have practices that are evil. in other words, the fact they are there doesn't mean that we agree with them. but they are there and that's why freedom of conscience is so important. >> one of the things you can help us understand is intolerance. and you quote in the global public square lord patton, the chairman of the bbc, chancellor of your column of water for your oxford. so, rather impressive figure. and chris patten says -- >> former governor of hong kong. >> it is curious -- this is the chancellor of oxford -- it is curious that atheists have proven to be so and tolerant of those who have faith.

why? >> back to darryl roger williams, he has a wonderful saying that those under the hatches behave differently -- he's talking about the state in 17th century terms -- those under the hatches behave differently when they are at the helm. in other words they are aware of all the ways they've been discriminated against and victimized in the press and many of them were. but when they are on the helm they do the same things themselves rather than thinking what is just and free for everybody. so you can see that happening strongly today. a distinguished member of the current white house talking to say as a zero sum game. another words come any clash, anything in this way has to go. that is the kind of intolerance which as you know from john locke and onward the

enlightenment tradition is like the word tolerant. it's not the best word. the tolerance always has the power equation. the majority tolerates the minority. the government tolerates the people. the king tolerates the subject. it has the power equation whereas freedom of conscience is inherent as an absolute right in he messed said the freedom of conscience is a far better word but one of the problems of tolerance is that it flip-flops' into the opposite and very quickly becomes in tolerant and you can figure how political correctness started as an inclusive and a very tolerant accept for the people they don't tolerate and the extremely intolerant. >> what with the global charter do if it were adopted and give us a report on what has happened with the global charter that you've been so instrumental in. >> so far only in european

countries. and america has this incredible tradition of religious freedom of the widest argued as squandering today. janet has a completely different problem padilla fifa. many of the best principles, are there back in history that they never florida in europe. so roger williams, an englishman, founder of rhode island flourished here sadly not back in england. if you look at europe today, the trouble is europe is sick, forgive me as a distinguished lawyer and judge, europe is thick with laws, articles and conventions of laws everywhere but as great european thinkers like montesquieu pointed out, you need not only the law but you need the habit in heart. >> could you repeat that? >> you need not only allow all but the habits of the heart -- >> have that of the heart. >> he gets that from montesquieu that says not only the structure

of the law but the spirit of liberty in every generation. now in europe today, the gap between all of these incredible laws and the average person is total they haven't a clue of what religious freedom means including sadly many of the leaders in brussels and in my own country in england. as of the gap between these high polluting laws and the way people back to the practice is extreme. and you're not the kind of launch a discussion. it's got to get back to the habits of the heart. civic education again. parents to children, teachers to students, etc.. it's got to become a living spirit in every generation or it's just it won't work. >> the great american judge of the 20th century wrote a small book based on a speech that he gave to celebrate the fourth of july and what american liberty mint and he simply caulkett "the spirit of liberty justice

montesquieu's greatest work was the spirit in the laws, not just the text the spirit of the laws. i've had several people during the course of the day and putting at a reception a little while ago talk to me about the middle east in light of each day brings news today was no exception of what is unfolding in the middle east, egypt, syria is on everyone's list. the pure research center has reported that the world's highest levels of government restrictions on religious beliefs and practices were found in the middle east and north africa. and one of the issues now before the president of the united states, the congress of the united states and the american people is what should we be doing in that part of the world. would you like to share with us if you have to use -- i realize

you are not a foreign policy buff, but as the european observer of america, what should we be doing in that part of the world? >> let me back up for a minute. i quoted somewhere in the book the famous remark of bismarck supposedly -- i mean he was dying. he was asked what would be the decisive factor for the 20th century if he died in 1898 idf i believe he said surprising they could speak english to get that would be the factor in the 20th century and he was right. u.s. today -- >> what do they mean by that? >> what he meant by that is the world power than was put in and within 20 years had declined and failed and the vacuum was filled not by the victors of the european conflict germany and france and what ever but by the united states and what became the american century. now if you ask today there is no

one factor of the 21st but a lot of people would argue there were three vital factors and what's interesting to me is they all touch on religion. so, the first one is the one that you are raising. can and will islam modernize peacefully? i will come back to that. the second great one. which face will replace marxism in china? everyone in china knows the partisan power, the ideology is hollow. will that be nationalism, materialism, confucianism, authoritarianism? i've heard it argued in the chinese academy it cut in 20 years' time be the christian faith is the majority faith in china. enormously significant which for the world and for china. but service the one you touched on earlier, the question we touched on earlier will the west sever or recover its roots? now pick up the first one again. what's happening outside

understand is that you see is on engaging with nutter nettie. and it's brought up the challenge of the sunni and shia and more modernizers three entrenching and so on and probably the next 20 or 40 years the middle east will be of this islamic reaction to modernity. the fact is that many of the century showed that we and the french across the channel did a lousy job of understanding the middle east and we understand it a lot better than many american diplomats understand it. so you've got to stick into a hornet's nest with great care. and you can see a lot of my american friends in washington didn't even know where iraq was until george w. declared war on

that. so i think we need a much greater understanding of islam and the middle eastern culture and a disengagement with modernity and how little comparatively we can do to shape that in strong ways. >> reflections on syria and what the u.s. should do? >> well, again, to go back if the reports are right, i think the president made a huge mistake in his cairo speech to insist the muslim brotherhood were invited to the front row and the leadership of the country refused to come because of that. in other words, there was an incredibly nigh yves fi with the power of islam in that speech and in the whole policy towards islam since then and not surprisingly when they came and saw the space election and caused the problems that have

come there. now when you come to syria, maybe when kofi annan tried years ago that is when we should have put our shoulders behind his efforts. we didn't. and now it's got to the place he does nothing, he looks weak. if he does something, he probably would look rash and maybe carry off his remark and the russians have gotten off the hook. i don't know. personally i was opposed to a strike for the sort of reasons that i mentioned. >> would you join me in saying thank you to os guiness who now -- [applause] -- invites questions from the audience -- again this is national press club washington, d.c. style and the provost is here to pose the questions that you are to report the questions

that you are posing for our distinguished guest. >> first in that era for the complicated issues we used to sound bites on which organs are promised, how we move towards a modern public that can deal with these issues? >> great question because the technological factors exacerbating are enormous. you take sound bites or you take say direct mail studies that have shown you put 20 letters and direct mail and just examine the words underlined they are almost always appealing to the hatred or fear or whenever. or you take something like the blogs where you have anonymous screen names and that anonymity and they very quickly to send to the sort of barbaric discourse there again civic education today has to work overtime to

restore civility and show people the the date with respect. those of us that are christians we are told to speak the truth with love, with respect and grace etc so that should underlie everything that we contribute in the public square but it is a massive problem. >> speaking of modern of borat and our national press club, i have a question on my phone so i thought i would read it. [laughter] what encouragement would you give pastors for involvement in the protection of religious liberty for everyone? >> well, those of the baptist pastors you have a great tradition in this area. but i would say if you look at alexis de tocqueville, he says on the one hand that religion is the first of the american institutions. it is that decisive. but he also shows how the

pastors didn't preach politics in the pulpit. in other words, they preach the scriptures, but their influence is in direct from the bottom-up and the people went out and lived in society and there was influential. so, with the rise of the christian right the pulpit has often been politicized with the pastors telling people how to vote and so on. that is a sign of weakness, not up strength. so, the pastor's should unashamedly preached descriptors the entire word of god and encourage people to live that out every inch of their lives for the free democratic republic as voters. so it's an enormous shame that so many evangelicals for example simply don't bode. that is a crying shame on them, but i'm not suggesting that pastor sproul edify as their sermons.

preach the scriptures and trust the people to live it out in the whole of their lives. >> what is the prospect for the expanded religious liberty in china? >> i go back to china every couple of years and i will be back there in a couple of weeks. i often speak on religious liberty because china knows they have incredible diversity but how do the achieve harmony? so hu jintao, the president says we are a society and yes, you have diversity and you have harmony, but you don't have what it takes, which is liberty, diversity, liberty and still have harmony and for that you need religious freedom. everyone knows in china that the communist party is trying to keep a lid on the pot which is

ways and and the influence of the free-market capitalism and the influence of cell phones and technology are bringing in all sorts of impulses towards freedom, which they have to recognize but still keep their control. one of the ways they have to face it is the need to introduce religious freedom. that undermines the way they have conducted things and you have a country that has killed more of its citizens than any in the whole of history so there will be a tough thing. but there are a number of voices beginning to raise religious freedom in china the way that you have a number of muslim places raising it in the middle east. i won't mention the country, but i was talking to a muslim leader recently written a book on freedom of conscience, which he had published anonymously in another muslim country where he was free to do so hoping the book would get back to his own country, and it's dangerous for them at the moment.

but hopefully as people like us speak and we reinforced the freedom of conscience will spread. >> tomorrow is the 12th anniversary of the september 11th attacks. what has been a lasting impact of these attacks on the community of faith? >> you can get all sorts of areas. i thought he would ask the community as a whole. on the community of faith, sadly it's given people the view of religion as - religion tied in with terrorism and so on. in other words, it's fed the kind of christopher hitchens how religion poisons everything, that type of argument. it has given many in this country and the alarmist view of as long. there is a huge difference between islam and islamism and

some of those on and so on and it's a simple fact that when muslims are a minority in a situation where the majority is different, the great majority of them go along with the ways of the country whether it's the united states or france and much of the christian fear and alarmism although they keep saying have no fear, the bible says that a million times have no fear. you can see that 9/11 created a huge sense of fear and alarmism and the christian community which has stopped the natural impulse to reach out to them and share the face of them and so on. so there are all sorts. the main implication that we are seeing in the last year freedom always undermined itself in three ways. number one, it becomes a license. number two, and this is the 1 cents 9/11, freedom loving

people love security and safety so they have so much security they lose freedom. think of what the nsa is following now. and the third is that freedom loving people value freedom so much they will fight it in any way because it is the supreme value even in ways that contradict freedom. sadly we have had examples of all three of those cents nine mollohan. >> here's the last question we have. what contribution can faith based higher educational institutions, like baylor cony to the contribution of the global public square? >> baylor comes out of the great tradition of a baptist understanding and commitment to religious freedom which is so important so you can be naturally in the forefront of those as one of the most significant universities in the

country as the last people that have a natural affinity for the religious freedom. so i hope -- baylor is doing it and i hope many of your distinguished professors who made an extraordinary contribution in this area, you are already doing it. but it might be worth thinking of the whole notion -- put it like this: i wrote the book, this one, because there are masses of good academic studies, no shortage of academic studies. always have more but there's no shortage. and we got hundreds of good activist and others standing against oppression, persecution etc., are around the world. there's no shortage of either academic studies or people studying against it. where we are missing is a constructive vision of a better way. now america needs that in a whole lot of other areas.

the conservative movement at large is largely a reactionary and has no powerful constructive vision of a way forward. and so there i think it would be part of sharing with such a vision should be. and you are ideally placed with your academic credentials and your great heritage of religious freedom to make such a contribution. >> a constructive vision of a better way. that is what dr. os guiness, born in china, living his life both in the u.k. now for the last 30 years in the united states and his call house then for both sides of the atlantic and now for the entire globe to come to terms with living with our deepest differences. a lot of us learned that our mothers or fathers need the golden rule. do unto others as you would have

them do unto you. and one of the things that he is saying in this very important book to all of us is we need to respect one another and respected these different voices and to welcome these different voices into the conversation. and this is nothing new. it's a millennia old. but it is as if much of the world has either forgotten or chooses to ignore. this way of getting along in a world filled increasingly with deep differences that are so abundantly manifested by virtue of our ability to communicate and to travel. and so i close by saying what we have heard tonight from this great voice of dr. os guiness echoes what was written in the

year 2012 -- notte 2012, 212. it is a fundamental human right that every man we would say person should worship according to his own convictions. you have broadened that to conscience, not just worshipped. john jay, the great founder to home he referred to early on in the conversation, to contend for the liberty but to deny that blessing to affairs involves an inconsistency not to be excused. and in excusable inconsistency. and later this year collaborative lee with georgetown university, baylor university will to be participating in a global conference in rome that will

mark the fact that the emperor constantine in the year 313 declared as a matter of imperial wall that every person the entire should have the right to freedom of conscience. so we began with roger williams. we move all the way to what is unfolding in the least. we return to the ancient texts and to the great enduring values so that we can look ahead in the 20 terse century to a true and global public square. join me and nothing -- thanking dr. os guiness.

[applause] i have been trying the last 20 something years to stop writing books. [laughter] i totally get that i work for the factor and i sometimes will feel very free when i finish something. i remember for finishing the color purple and just leaving in july. okay. i'm done. and i have had that scenario with myself many times thinking i'm done. but anyhow, so this book i'm going to read first from a cushion in the road and i wanted to read a little about how that

came about. how did i come to think of the life that i lead, which is very -- when i'm not on the road somewhere it's so quiet. it's so happy with me and buying sweetheart who is a musician. one of the ironies of life of course is that i love it so much that i fell in love with the person who plays the trumpet. so it's telling us who do you think is in charge? did you write some dream that you imagine that you were in charge? well, i will just show you. this is a very short introduction to this book the cushion in the road. i learned much from the thought.

it has been a comfort to me since i read my first poem which was sitting quietly, doing nothing, the spring comes and the grass grows by itself. it to me this is a perfect poem. but there is also from that tradition this fought the wanderers home is in the road. a wonder this home is in the road. this has proved very true in my own life, much to my surprise because i am such a home body. i love being at home with my plants, animals and some assets, the moon. it is all glorious to me. and so when i turn 60, i was prepared to bring all of myself to sit on a cushion in a

meditation room i had prepared long ago and never get up. [laughter] it so happened -- it so happened that i was in south korea that year, of course, and south koreans agreed with me. in fact, in that culture it is understood that when we turn 60, when we turn 60 we become eggy but this is and how they spell it. this means we are free to become once again like a child. we are to rid ourselves of our care is especially those we have collected in the world and to turn inward to a life of ease and leisure and joy. i loved hearing this. what an affirmation of feeling i was already beginning to have. enough of the world. where is the grand child, where

is the caution? and so i began to prepare myself to withdraw from the world. there i sat finally on a cushion in mexico with a splendid view of a homemade stone fountain with its softly falling water, a perfect soothing backdrop to what i thought would be the next and perhaps final 20 years of my life. unlike my great, great, great grandmother who lived to be 125i figured 80 is doing really well. [laughter] and then a miracle seemed to be happening. american -- america was about to be left or not he lacked a person of color as its president. what? mycogen shifted minute plea to the then too an unsuspecting guest left the radio on and i learned bombs were falling on

the people of gaza a. a mother unconscious herself lost five daughters. didn't i have a daughter? what i have wanted to lose her in this way? was sent by another? even if reportedly in perfect in that role? well, my question began to wobble. i had friends who became eggy and managed to stay eggy. i envied them. for the years following my 60th birthday seemed to be about teaching me something else. that yes i could become like a child again and enjoy all the pleasures and wonder a child experiences, but i would have to attempt to maintain this in the vicissitudes of the actual world as opposed to the meditated universe i had created with its

calming and it's ever flowing fountains. my troubles would take me to the celebrations in washington, d.c., where our new president barack obama would be inaugurated. they would karina the morning after those festivities to faraway burma, myanmar, which would lead to much riding. they would take me to thailand for a lovely trip up the river where i could wave happily at the people who smiled back when smiled upon. they would take me to gaza and much writing about the palestine and israel impact. it to the west bank, to india to all kinds of amazing places. like for instance jordan. who knew him? why would find myself raising a nation of chickens in between travels and holy people in oakland, where baker.

my question, the fountain, the peace -- because of my attention to some of the deep suffering in the world sometimes seemed far away. i felt torn. a condition i did not like and do not recommend. and then in a dream it came to me. there was a long asphalt highway like the one that passed by my grandparents place when i lived with them as an aide and 9-year-old. my grandfather and i would sit on the porch in the georgia sheet and count the cars as they whizzed by. he would choose red cars and i would choose blue or black. it was the sitting on cushions of sort i suppose for the two of less because ours could go by and we were perfectly content. perhaps that is why in the dream

the solution to my quandary was available. there in the middle of the long perfectly straight highway with its slightly faded yellow center line that i had known and loved as a child sat by rose colored meditation cushions directly on the yellow line right in the middle of the road. so what do i believe? that i was born to wander and i was born to sit. to love, with a sometimes unbearable affection, but to be lured out into the world to see how it is doing as my beloved larger home and paradise. >> you can watch this and other programs online on booktv.org.

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