unable to walk and his first thought was for ammo. it's a touching story and it's also a pretty dramatic story as he crawls 12 miles trying to find help before he was picked out by soldiers who are pursuing the indians. when i put together the proposal for dentures and -- "adventures in yellowstone" i had 250 stories collected at that time. i have closer to 400 now. i put the book together with a dozen best stories. i took the notion of the adventures very seriously. i collected stories that where people really and countered some difficulty and had some thing interesting happening to them. a lot of the diaries you see of yellowstone park are nice descriptions of what happened and what they saw but the it --

"adventures in yellowstone" has people who had high adventures hunting bears during countering indians are following geysers or maybe -- maybe they had humors things happen to them like chasing a bear away from their campfire. that is kind of the story of the "adventures in yellowstone." .. a

is. >> it is because i think that religion is the way the executive leader leads a and the decisions of the middle east from sex education to foreign policy. but with a little side steady i think we're realizing increasingly individual faith is important sometimes it think

we should know about -- no more about our presidents faith before they are elected. so i try to figure out how we disagree with this person all we want to understand how of the antiques i want to say that if you have the book you will notice it is dedicated to the faculty and students at berlin american and high-school in germany. with all the people that we met behind the iron curtain but it no longer exist. some want to dedicate the book to them and i want to mention that to you. abraham lincoln we all know that perhaps in some ways

more controversial at most war has always ranked to the top has to do with many, many things his story is moving and inspiring. and to accomplish great things it also the magnificent day of free the slaves. at the time it was unbelievable. because not unlike john kennedy people put on lincoln whenever their own reviews are. if you are a hawk that that is how people present him. whenever you are as a scholar that is how the life of the kennedy or lincoln is

a repository of those used no more so than weakens faith. he is portrayed as a billy graham's figure of a stalwart christian for morality the phrase board again was used but on the other hand, with the bourse scholar the side of the war university oriented histories would present lincoln as a thorough going etfs to see you have the complete dichotomy that you have a few facts about lincoln's life. just read the second inaugural address right there on the side of the lincoln memorial this is like a sermon he quotes scripture and speaks to god's will for the world did the nation and understands

the civil war how could this be a bit tedious? so people all are all over the spectrum and for me the issue is that i do have my biases but to fight the truth even if it is a journey that is not great and it begins life -- in lincoln's life it was short and we have to slow down and not be eager to get him to the altar or draw conclusions but let's get the dirty. -- look at the jury. so just so you can feel the pain of lincoln historians the probably have not heard it was alluded to in the recent lincoln fell a

beautiful film but even darr it was not as we have it with the sources said they did take some creative license as is there right but i am not at lincoln scholar but those who speak of his faith always have to speak in careful terms that lincoln always has categories in which the little boxes that we have. if you saw the lincoln film there is a scene in which mary todd lincoln and abraham lincoln at the end of the war arrived in the carriage. they go to ford's theatre that night but finally the war is lifting they lost a child, they fight lousy and

lincoln haunt to the white house out of the burden and the grief now is obvious the war is that an end there are a few operations left a and you have this. normally if you read a biography don't care about that. the deportation that comes from it is the best use to be happy. but the reality is very tied the game and to have a conversation during that kerry tried what they would do after the war. it was along the lines of we will not go to springfield but do something else. added the film will conversation takes place right there and the language is changed from the sources

that we have with creative license but you have probably heard that abraham lincoln went to ford's theatre sat in the box they are in a flirty booed from that carriage ride and she turns to me and says what will paris seek of the haiti on to you and he said she will think nothing of it at all then john wilkes booth fired that is the bbc it in the film but not described in the history books but that is not the way that mary todd lincoln herself said it went. she said that they had become a conversation during the day the fish to the box of ford's theatre that night

for arrival to you with this came from but she does say what will this paris think of me any onto? even as those words are said to john wilkes booth is working his way into the box and lincoln says we will not return immediately to springfield to go abroad among strangers were i can rest. then as john wilkes booth made his way further he says to her we will visit the homeland. that hangs in the air then john wilkes booth makes further progress in to the truth than finally as the drama increases and the play continues he says we will visit the holy land to see the places hallowed by a the

footsteps of the savior. then just before john wilkes booth done shot interest rate he says there is no place i so much desire to see as jerusalem. bear in mind he never joined a church. as he says these words it is on good friday he was known for a vast sense of humor he never made it a clear affirmation of faith in jesus christ by definition of christianity and he was suspicious of preachers for a good portion of his life for seven years he was the village atheist regime left. there is not any part that

until the last moments of his life in his police statements would be to visit the holy land we did not know he did not want to go to spring period but the holy land or considered jesus his savior. this is the problem for those who try to trap him because almost all of the stories that you cherish about lincoln game years after he died from people who recall it later. there was not that much the nation was at war in lincoln was not popular with the majority of united states. what happened later there is a great deal of research and there is always the older man's sitting on the town square the had a memory and had happened 20 years ago

but when he chopped down the cherry tree or through a nickel across the potomac. this is every indication of being true. historians tend to take it very well dash fairly seriously one of the finest scholars takes it seriously, wayne temple lead of the leading scholars of lincoln's faith even quoted it and doors current good wins a gigantic hit so anybody who writes about that characterized his says anything about lincoln going to the holy land after the war has drawn from this interview but yet it happens almost 70 years after teeseventeen -- lincoln dies so that we would have some uncertainty and that is the nature. but there is a journey that

lincoln undergoes that gets us to ford's theatre that makes sense of the words he says and does not leave us with a simplistic conclusion he was a pate in he was billy graham all these nuances and a journey that may be more fascinating in some cases the of the conclusion. so let me take you briefly with their religious journey of abraham lincoln. good to know he was born in 89 -- 18 '09 but born right after the great religious surge was happening called the second great awakening the first was before the american revolution. it started in places like yale like with charles finney you may remember from

history but moved out that was the version of the revival that lincoln would have known as a young man. it was upsetting to him to many good social things in some cases that by the time they hit that front tear it was wild. with great big huge open spaces as many as 10 or 20,000 people assembled for the huge preaching times comet was a powerful force in american history but yet by the time it reaches the up front tear you have people running around barking trying to catalog the exercises they call the tree exercise to get this year and run up a tree and

people would bring their launchers in there were extremes and excesses' it you can imagine the theological and this this that he was growing up in a given that he was an intelligent young man and a bookish this would not have captured him but this was the majority that was offered to him at the time. but it is definitely what was around him for you can understand young sensitive man recoiling from it. but what starts in a slightly negative direction is abraham lincoln and his father had a horrible relationship with a parent but the problem with lincoln's father is he was a

harsh me and he thought nothing of beating him to be kim worked but then the weepy about jesus and spiritual thing so so then you sit through dinner listening to your father reap so whenever truth there was but there was no connection between father and son but then he never even went to his own father's funeral. once he was dying they said you should come see him he said lobito painful for both of us and it was a painful relationship he represented the bombastic kind of faith that would not have appealed to abraham lincoln but yet he had a deep love of scripture and poetry and a deep love of spiritual things that came from his

mother. in she was appalled and largely illiterate when of my favorite that abraham lincoln's mother was the best wrestler in kentucky but then you have the supreme court justice it that said yes. absolutely. not something you hear on the campaign trail today. [laughter] but she was a mystical woman had a good memory into the constitution into a came down the family line. also with the mystical cast so she brought abraham into scripture and into a love of words and a sense been is a guide which he definitely

lean to with the revivalist dick faith. what is important about that is well there was a definite mystical cast because of his mother's influence the first time legally that he could have done it. but then he laughed when -- leftists and is he was 21 but where he went and the religious influence we all remember the name in connection with abraham lincoln. 21 you would think this most people would be illiterate and typical of what we think

that because of the great passion of america. in to in a society to become barbarians in the wilderness the fact that women commanded is a love he landed in the town with many smart people who talk theology all the time. this is america in a self-taught self education jefferson teaches them 10 languages and one of them is eric beck. lincoln's friend and biographer said he was surrounded by a class of people exceedingly liberal in matters of religion age of reason, passed from he and to he and and furnish food for the evening discussion and lincoln read

both books and assimilated them into his thinking. but although the american revolution was conducted in a high of religious surge after the war the churches had been destroyed or pastors killed in bibles berndt also the indictment you have a great turning against traditional christianity, thomas paine sites with common sense much of the board then writes a book called age of reason that trashes traditional christianity. one writes about a house in the religion is in how we should be cast doubt and also with the orientation in in can bring this to the forefront.

and then to build an empire so his intellectual diet the self education gift that we hereabout from the early age as he walks about it was wonderful to fashion intellectually but spiritually he ended up drinking though water that was a liberal. now the issue here is that lincoln is so in three at religion in general that he goes further. his friends remember all their lives that lincoln hated religion and spoke of a price being illegitimates in many times when he was making a conversation he would not use the name jesus

christ but just say the bastard. even if they moved away from traditional faith they certainly were not trying to be that crass about it. then during the same salem period for he becomes a village atheist he actually writes a little booklet on infidelity that sounds like thomas paine he is angry and passionate calling christ names and talking about the bible being lithology and some of his friends knew he had political aspirations in do this was dangerous while one french threat in the fire while another helped him to pull out but he would walk around with the bible just to pick a fight as the village atheistic and people don't know this was a phase something that happened to him and part of who he was

the thought he would never be successful in politics because as some moved away from christianity shaping the culture you would not break into the upper crust into their christianity at the foundation but there is another issue that for me are two of the most fascinating issues of the link in psychology. i hope we never lose the memory that lincoln fatah horrible depression in his life people said he was the saddest man they had ever seen and dripped melancholy when he walked. his mother was'' possessed of a particular spirit of sadness. " end quote. so you can find books on this subject said we had the

lincoln we would not have had him without depression but it is not temporary sadness but he suffered debilitating depression. his friends had to go on suicide watch many times. it was almost certain the inherited also he suffered horrible death he said to a friend he was haunted by the thought of water falling on gray's he lost his mother his sister and in local and did and his mother died at the age of night he built the coffin and hope to bury her. very hands-on experience in the first woman he loved died horribly as his mother deep -- other did also his friends the other would -- others to put leader that is the time he went crazy where

we had to take the raisers from the room. not just temporary. but the thing that i did not know when i began writing the book is that i never really heard discussed and i heard it mentioned lately that it may very well has been at the heart of lincoln's depression in also his rejection of god. and lincoln was absolutely tortured by the fact his mother was illegitimate. so he used that word bastard the uses of jesus for his own mother. it is hard for us to understand if i was born without knowing my parents you would not think less anybody this is a time first

sons are morally superior to the second. so lincoln believes somehow he was cursed because his mother was a legitimate even that good things about him he thought were some house stolen. as someone raped his grandmother as those qualities had been stolen. this is absolutely on the documents. been to talk about the rest of the family and not being very bright had he would have been if he was not the recipient of the aristocrats. a hint the illegitimacy and his part so far meteor's

that he believed himself cursed been often compared himself to job. i will quote briefly this is lincoln speaking to her in a conversation recorded he said mike mother's mother was born and credulous and shamefully taken advantage of by the man. my mother inherited his quality and i her's. it is almost laughable from modern understanding that the man was tortured by it. for patients suffering god-fearing lincoln and take

this work on fidelity that added foot last great of despair does not melancholy drip from this man? said he said god has put him through it because he is a legitimate and buys his perspective. but with his depression lincoln's yeager to god would never conclusions are theologically some of the caller is from lincoln believing he is cursed it is a serious thing that we hardly understand or perceived today but they eventually do change. after a decade he battles depression in continues to read but it become a blood dash she becomes a part of

the legislature and things begin to change because he began to encounter christians those folks were theological liberals so now he opens to other ideas but he begins to change to make more money or practice law in he is in the legislature. by the time the period ends he buries an episcopalian mary todd lincoln and had a child and by the time this comes to when and he has already been in congress for a little more than a year. during all this time that he returned from congress he is a skeptic who knows how to talk the language he is not the raging atheist part of it is probably politics you cannot speak that way to get elected there is evidence of

things he had done publicly but it during that time at least he becomes softer letting his wife go to church. he would have to give permission although lincoln never went but this is a man very cautious and distant but did almost all changes in one year that in 1850 he is coming back from congress. his father in law has died come a contested death, the estate is contested so the family asks him to figure out as he goes to robert tides:in lexington. he is taking weeks to work out the red details and finally getting a piece from all the daughters screaming

at each other in grabbing portions he six in the on dash assets in his father-in-law's library and one day he pulls down a two volume mark that has a title insurer know book title today would do very well but it is about a four sentence title i will not quote the whole thing but it is called christians defense. it is written by the presbyterian minister in springfield. which is where lincoln is from. he reads it in for the first time he is beginning to read a deeply intellectual scholar the defense of christianity. he is intrigued but at the time his case goes the way he goes to springfield and so intrigued by the book

that he asks a friend to introduce him to reverend smith. he asks for a copy of these two volumes in darr in his very small boat just the rest of his life on the intellectual side articulating with the clarity the case for christianity but what presses this home is just shortly after his son dies. eddie dies of consumption. but it is almost like being consumed but for two months he suffers little too many guys. lincoln who was already had too much death already battles depression it is haunted by the thought of

rain falling on the graves he is devastated. and then reaches out to reverend smith. what people will live to this point because maybe i met christian but it doesn't happen he moves to christianity things definitely change there is some kind of turning. reverend smith says in his later writings that abraham lincoln becomes christian they brett that point i don't think historians can draw a conclusion but there is definitely a turn he begins to support churches' locally with money if he had not done that before in helos and a baptist minister his buggy into force is for a year and a half vocationally he attends

church with mary todd lincoln who has now switched to reverend isthmus' presbyterian church i have heard my friends refer to him as the chosen frozen but he was more billy graham's type loud and calling people as their church but something has changed. and then until he enters the white house i cannot put on it with the scholars have to say that lincoln is a man wrapped around christianity but no question he is now a believer in the god. now question he is a believer of providence. no question there is a turning. the speeches are filled with scripture and he meets regularly with ministers and funds christian ministries

and speaks positively of the christian gospel -- gospel as a change in the world has tearfully embraced christianity? in favor of a christianity apart from christ? those are the questions that hang in the air but when he is running for president and wins, he does believe in a guide and who is speaking often of his work in and somehow has had a half turning at that point. now let me use the book ends of abraham lincoln's to magnificent speeches to show you the change that happens all he is in office because this is the next big face. you have atheist, the period of turning in springfield

where they were the loosely christian statesman now you have the president but there is a big change that happens while he is in the white house and this is so important and i think. as i hope you read the magnificent first and second inaugural addresses the languages beautiful he and it is hard to believe he wrote it himself to be interested in the influence of his mother, the bible in shakespeare and his amazing intelligence then we can see it more clearly. in the first inaugural you understand the country is coming apart, the headed towards civil war, this is his last appeal on the national stage to the south. it is obvious from his speech that is twice as long or three times as long as the second, long, reasoning, arg uing, and making the lawyers case for the south but he

believes human history is in human hands. he believes history is a product of human decisions it even says as you head to the last couple of paragraphs that it your hands my dissatisfied fellow countrymen is able mantis issue of civil war. remember that at the second but he believes these issues are humanly decided. of course, you have to read the last line domestic chords of memory searching from every battlefield but the theology is we can change this if we want to. we can make decisions that will change the us. the changes over the next four years is lincoln is

living through events. that million is not in charge of this comes out of complete frustration. if we look at the difference between the confederacy in the union that we talk about the number of weapons and bullets in miles cover of a track, min's, factories, a seamstress, with every talk about the union has far and away has power. and lincoln cannot buy a victory. you know, his frustration one of the finest commanders best to one frustration he says if general mcclellan will now use the army i would like to borrow it. he is so frustrated he cannot stand himself as general's achieve a certain measure of victory all they have to do is cross the

river and they stop being have coffee in lincoln will fight to letters you understand you have just done. he is in the white house and absolutely added control and drives him to haunt the white house that night if he walks around an a tortured state. about two years into the war you can tell he is rassling theologically and believes and a guide in his ruling the earth still wrestling with his belief of cuban efforts to determine human history. he often writes out the rustling of his soul on paper and they got this one was captured by his secretary many were lost but it was called the invitation of the divine will. i would read briefly about his state of mind. >> the will of god is great contest each party claims to

act in accordance with the will of god. one must be wrong because god cannot be for and against the same thing at the same time for the presence of war it is quite possible guides purpose is something different from the purpose of either party. here we go. that god's purpose is something different from north or south. and get the human instrumentality works just as they do or of the best adaptation to his purpose there most ready to say this is probably true here he is always debating that god wills this that it shall not and yet by his me your quiet power on the minds of contestants he could have saved or destroyed the union without human contact the yet it has begun and he to give the final victory to either side on any day yet it continues.

>> what is he saying? i now understand that god is all powerful of you wanted to destroy the union he could have if you wanted to give the confederacy victory for the union victory he could have. he is not doing anything he has something dulces after. but he concludes within weeks is god is enraged about slavery and as the creatures used to say god has a controversy with this nation god ising three about slavery and he has visited this war upon the nation as judgment. one of the few ways to make sense of that the army the five times the size of its enemy cannot win the victory the best weapons don't dominate the bus strategy doesn't win. within a short period of time that we don't often read lincoln issues the visitation proclamation if

it turns out he goes into a cabinet meeting and says you know, i have been considering an emancipation of some sort i have now decided to do it because i made a solemn vow before god this is an exact quote that the cabinet meeting that if general the was driven back from pennsylvania at gettysburg i would crown the results to the freedom of the slaves but if god gave us victory i would crown that effort with a declaration of freedom to the slaves they said sir we didn't hear you correctly he said you did hear me and made a covenant with god but again he has not been your religious figure but the bulls have personal notes

even simon chase they confirm this independently i just don't you to think i am making this up. one of the important mortar's is issued out of a covenant with god and a belief the war has been visited upon the nation by god. let me read a few sentences from the second inaugural address. uc the journey. here is the famous line. it is all very short he is just proclaiming if one of those slavery's that with the providence of god that which having continued through his appointed time now willis to remove to give both north and south this terrible war to to those by whom the offense came show

we discern and departure when dash departure as is always ascribed isn't this the guide that we all know and talk about? in the second inaugural says nobody is in control. this is judgment from god and man said i don't think that will do very well because men are not flattered by being shown there is a difference of purpose between the almighty and them. what he intended with the second inaugural my words seeks natalie to become president but also profit not to predict the future but speaks in god's words and emotions and attitude or danger to people at it be given in time.

he felt he was in a role to speak of god to the nation. the first inaugural is in europeans but the second inaugural this is just a judgment nobodies and control. you go from lincoln ha'penny gone to his mother believing in the form himself to hating his father in revivalist culture moving to where he is crass and offensive moving into a tolerant phase the may have been politically motivated but some absorption of a belief and finally when you get to the presidency a man who believes in god in some biblical truth police in heaven and hell and christian ethics still isn't clear about who jesus is and does not make a firm

statement that goes to the church the moment he arrives in washington d.c. strongly evangelical reciting the creed every weekend was not anti-jesus as he once was and by the time his presidency he was over is the second inaugural. god will heal our nation but nobody is in control of this. let me speak god's will to the nation. so the conclusion of the matter is the one that i find frustrates a lot of people. what is lincoln religiously? that journey is interrupted. if i have on my christian hat i think he had arrived

at peace with christianity and abroad since from scholars that i cannot prove what i just said because we don't know but anybody paid him as the civil war billy graham's overdoes it also anybody who says he is an atheist his those speeches chiselled in to the monument doesn't say that's why i brought you all this way to say i don't know. [laughter] in the journey is the thing and sometimes that is all we get. that as the great way to end so i will yield to some questions. >> it sounds like his wife was very difficult at you see any evidence that he approached it in a biblical or new testament way or the

definition were to have a particular spouse or anything that difficult marriage closer to god blackout could you let it happen? >> how could -- great question. did he see the movie? you have to see that or you cannot move on in life you will see an almost one of the scenes sally field dozen awesome portrayal is reaching a and furious it did not come the edge james dobson marriage they make peace and love each other and screaming and fight him blame each other allow one of the most beautiful statements is lincoln

complaining that she was crazed in her grief portia's no evidence for anybody else even the children were squeezed out. titty genuinely believe them at the time he quoted them not in the beginning by in the end he.he just said maybe this will work because she is screaming like a wounded animal feeling -- filling the house with her grief later i think he was trying to comfort them with their face but we don't know enough about their private life if he was doing anything you have to understand these people are besieged with their

characters said this is not more important thing you but it is right now. with hundreds of thousands of people dying so he eventually turned away but we don't know anything more than that but she is eventually driven and unhinged even her own son has a committed and there are lawsuits to get her out. it is a hard thing to watch. >> in what context did mary todd lincoln discuss that to her? >> this is the kind of deprivation that makes a better and worse talking to a baptist minister named

noyes this same he let the buggy and horses to. that document is on file at the springfield library. by the way if you're even remotely interested in the abraham lincoln you will not believe the library not just a collection of books like disneyland collect collided with the bird in turn and something else is something else as you walk through with the caskets and it is unbelievable. some of the best lincoln scholars iran to buy the best and they said that conclusions from the book

were all valid they were not koppelman to be but saying this is confirmed. the document is confirmed as historical. not to anything can we be wanted to% epic because it is for mary todd lincoln but we rely on is so much for everything else we take everything else like the carriage ride come to the conversation but then religion it cannot be true? not trying to pick a fight but consider the whole thing. short answer interview with mary todd lincoln 1882. the most of what you know, except for what he wrote% or people wrote during his presidency comes sometimes three decades later but it is substantiated as a source. but most scholars used to

don't use it all but people think during the victorian era there was every working and there could be some evidence for that but we also have evidence that i decided from later that confirms this it will never be fully resolved but only of those that insist on an absolute conclusion are wrong. understand what i am saying? if you insist on a position he was on a journey but it did impact the country that is the conclusion that you can tell that a few presidents lives have impacted our country but yet he may be of the least certain amount. that is all we go. it has great -- a great to be with you please go to

springfield and read all about him. it is wonderful. [applause] >> as a young child i tasted the fruits of discrimination and i did not like it. as my mother and father and grandparents they said that is the way it is. don't get in trouble. don't get in the way. in 1955 in the tenth grade 15 years