>> not everyone. no. >> you are saying that people would have been. i would argue that knowing a little bit about the history of that time, there were too many people who had too much to lose to a supported the idea of emancipation in general. >> i have been signaled that we are off. thank you very much for coming. [applause] >> this event was part of the 2013 national book festival in washington d.c. for more information visit loc dot of / book fest. >> book tv continues on c-span2.

up next, steven m. in as argues the killing of matthew shephard on october 1998 was not an anti-gay hate crime but was e result of a robbery gone wrong. this is about an hour. >> even sure i need this microphone, but i will use it because this is being recorded for c-span. it is really a great pleasure to be here tonight. this is actually the first of on a book tour that i have no head about 30 cities. it just seems appropriate in terms of gay history to come to the castro, a place that i have really enjoyed in the past. what i would like to do is kind of introduce the book by telling you a little bit of the history about how i got into writing what is now the book and then i thought, i'm just going to read briefly the couple of --

probably too, to a half pages to give you a feeling for of the voice of the book and a little bit about some of what you refer to their as the hidden secrets of the tangle secrets. i went to laramie wyoming for made for television movie. my background is in film and television. i went and a right and made for television movie about the basic a crime story that matthew had been lured out of a bar because he was gay man was fatally beaten and tied to a fence. you know, that was a story and believed. i spent -- when i went to laramie in early 2000 this was just a few months after the

trial of aaron mckinney which ended in an early november of 1999. during the entire year that the case was going on all of the principal witnesses, all of the principals in the case, many law enforcement, people who worked at the courthouse, everyone involved was under a gag order, so they could not talk about the case for a full year. there was also a court order to seal all the records in the case the records are sealed also. said journalists who went to laramie with -- you know, once the crime happened and that he was attacked on tuesday evening, october 6 in 1998. he died on october 12, a short time later. the media then came to laramie to report the case and was relying on a couple of initial press releases, press

releases and conferences and basically what they could pick up, a lot of which was hearsay because they could not actually interview witnesses, look through the police records reports and statements perpetrators, the girl friends to help cover of the case. that eight months in to my research in laramie this actually happened and that the prosecutor in the case. he is a person who was responsible for sending aaron mckinney and russell anderson away for life. both received two life sentences with no chance of parole. after about eight months i finished the draft, asked the prosecutor to read and do some fact checking for me.

you know, to be sure that i had not misstated something. i used a lot of the court documents. i came upon a letter in the court house in a file during what i thought would be my last research trip, and in this letter it was an anonymous letter written to the prosecutor it said that the defense perry mckinny had used in his trial, in a panic defense, claiming that matthew had come on to him sexually and touched him and he sort of flipped out, said that this was bogus and that he was bisexual birth to my ear with amen. and this was bogus. of course and lifted the anonymous letter and thought this is incredible source. on the other hand it named a man named dr. connor was a limousine driver in laramie was a friend of both air and mckinney, the

killer, and matthew shepherd. i had seen his name in magazine articles. he was later portrayed in a laramie project and was portrayed really is a kind of folksy cowboy like character, a paternal figure, a description when dr. o'connor and mass you go for a ride in a limousine and there's talk about how the stars were twinkling. well, eventually i interviewed dr. o'connor. there was all of the story. doc had quite an illustrious history. many run is with the police, although never convicted of a crime. he had honed adult bookstores in denver. he was kind of a mysterious business man who had a background that was kind of hard for people to pin down exactly what it was. but when i learned about

dr. o'connor and that he was a link between matthew shepard and aaron mckinney, i was curious. i was also curious about these allegations that aaron mckinney was bisexual. i began to investigate as a journalist, first for the new york times magazine i approached them with the story. the commission to me to write, and i worked on the story on and off for two years from 2002- 2002-2004. and the new york times eventually kill the story. the editor who commissioned it from me had left the magazine. he is gay and now runs new york magazine. and the editors who inherited the story from them were less enthusiastic. so the story was killed. at the same time i have been talking with abc news about doing a story that would come

out at the same time of the bill would kill the story based on what had happened at the times magazine. the executive producer of abc news' 2020 who is still there is also a day. and he actually said, no, let's do it. at that time as i said, and to be the prosecutor extensively and had not interviewed other people in laramie. it had also been done, the only interviews that the two men convicted of the murder had given. eventually at the present. what i found coming year know, in summary form, and i hope you'll take the time to read the book is that, in fact, karen and matthew had a history together. they've known each other months before the crime, although the official story was that the two walked into a bar and matthew

appeared well dressed. he looked like he might have money. appear to be gay. that was the conventional story that was told by most of the mainstream media. certainly by the new york times as i began investigating in realize it appeared that air and mckinney in at the shepherd knew each other, obviously i was curious in what way they knew each other. through some sources in the book just to say, a couple of things that come out in the media. if the sources in the book are not credible or that i used anonymous sources to say at the end of the book their is a list of 112 name sources of people that i spoke with for the book. there are a few people from whom

i use pseudonyms. the reason i use pseudonyms is these people that were involved in selling crystal meth and people that were involved actually in the trafficking of math at pointed out to a few interviewers that this was a dangerous story to pursue. i provided some of the sexual allegations. i'm here looking a little spiffy . it requires some undercover reporting in which i really went too many of the bars. i got to know the bartenders, got to know the bouncers. eventually i got to no drug dealers that were working this

was a cumulative as a starter digs law of the drug world. then obviously discovered that matthew shepard had been involved with crystal meth as the user first win he was living in denver before he moved to laramie. the move to laramie in the summer of 1998, and the crime happened in october of 98. i was interested in the was the history that was there. what i found, and i found this from quite a number of sources, ten sources who had gone on record about having witnessed some aspect of the relationship between matthew and daring. some of it was socializing at parties. it was also, several people were

present when there were drug or money exchanged between them. again, none of this is to say in any way that this was not a harley -- it was a horribly violent or grotesquely violent crime that occurred in laramie in october of 1998. the story that was presented and that really was quickly mythologized and is the story that most people, if you ask them would say, yes, he was a young man murdered because it was gary. so, i just wanted to say some of this as background to hell i got involved. i reported the story for many years after the abc news piece aired. i went on with the reporting, continued to do the reporting with some of the sources in the 2020 peace and went on to find

other sources and to document further some of what i found. and it took me into the crystal math or to read one of the things we have to look at your is that in 1998 when matthew was killed people are not particularly the media were not talking about methamphetamine. crystal meth did not become a story. the national media did not start to report on it seriously until about 2004. it did not become a big story until 2006 and 2007, but in 1998 that was already becoming a big problem in laramie, wyoming and was starting to move across midwestern and western states, becoming a problem in iowa and missouri and nebraska and colorado and wyoming and montana. the epidemic it became quite

large and is a problem. already began. and also began to be a problem in certain urban gay enclaves. crystal meth was a circuit party drug. something that people got off on the fact it is fair ball might commend dancing, it really makes the drug makes you feel especially at the beginning, really enlivened and powerful and very alive. but now in retrospect, and i talk about this in the book, this was moving through those two segments, urban gay communities and also through the rocky mountain west, midwest. and it just wasn't at the time people are now looking at that. as i went into the police report and found references that had never come out and journalists

said never reported on because the records were sealed. in the course of right after the crime happened questioning friends of matthew and in particular one friend, alex trout, told the police that matthew had gotten into a methamphetamine are coke and is living in denver. this was significant because the police knew aaron mckinney was a math dealer and had been dealing math for three years in laramie and was very much on the police radar at that point. what i would like to do is rather than go through a lot of what i talked about in the buckeye would just like to read you a passage that won't take any more than eight or ten minutes, a couple of pages. but i think it would give you a feeling for what the voice of the book is, some of the things i discovered, and a little bit about the characters here. so i just -- would you like me to read it with the microphone? okay. ..

>> i had interviewed him

twice in prison but still i took precautions since earlier he had devised me you don't know too you are dealing with. or higher up on the food chain. ty over to the oilfields and hedges god off shift and was still in company overalls and his heathens and face were stained. talking about bessie shepard although he previously only claimed to know in passing i suggested he may have gutted over his head with drugs. kyle spiral that be like i was an idiot. and he was taking stuff away from the rest of us then suddenly to vehicles and backed into both spaces

which he has said what i saw what was happening i read into the party now with more like to. kyle shouted for me to get back to the car but i refused a that instant a friend of mine who was planted it in gear by a truck he said get out of their their city you ought to -- setting you up. i tried not to panic but worried i would get a plug over or shy spun around to keep his car in view as i hustled across the parking not. before reached the entrance to the restaurant kyles vehicle for ad of the lot tires screeching headed for the ramp to the interstate. then my friend picked to be up his face was white he told me how call -- how

close he thought he came to losing me with his help by nearly bandaged to escape the guy was clearly given a message. i took my friends of bias and crouched down on the floor of his truck evidently someone more powerful than kyle said be up. i hardly slept that night as waves of the anxiety surged 3-d next morning and why i put bisulfide dg like that. the next day still agitated and recounted the experience to the prosecutor and he shook his head in disgust. the methamphetamine trade has made will be referred to to the old west. it is deadly. by then he was voted out of office after for elected terms now prosecuting state

and federal drug cases in the twin cities of greed river and rock springs. after hearing my story he told about a colleague that was recently surprised by an armed male intruder in the bathroom of his home while shaving. the man was there to relate the message regarding a drug case awaiting sentencing by the judge. after a few curch words with the man quietly slipped away. i saw no point to ask what the judge decided but his reference to the old west brought back a conversation i recently had about matthew's inverter with a veteran cop in the albany county sheriff's office. friendly, but with a studied

charm he leaned over his desk with his chiseled face inches from my. you sure you're not quoting me he asked? i said it is for background i will not use your name trying to sell a reassuring. what happened to teeeighteen was not a hate crime at all but wiped you want to go digging into all of that by not let sleeping dogs lie? >> to was not inclined to answer candidly instead of the suspicions of the involvement of other parties like wrestle henderson with events of that murder i reminded him the killing was a national event like the civil-rights killing of the 1960's as if he were somehow unfamiliar with the stigma

that continued to tarnish his home town. the public has a right to know if the murder was really a hate crime rice said with conviction and if not, what was it? the cop steered me as he sank back and shrugging doubtfully almost as an afterthought he flashed another grin but again his eyes told me to let sleeping dogs lie. >> i hope was rather is a and read a lot from the book i would just like to have a discussion or a conversation why i wrote the book and why i will travel all over the country to talking in bookstores and colleges and folk festivals and book fares. it is worth having

conversations about the perplexity of violent defense like this. the end of the bike to have a conversation about or 80 feet you want to ask any questions about the book. >> my question may be more detail but a lot of people are killed over drugs but not in such a way to you address that? >> i do. one of the things that surprised me when i did research of methamphetamines that i was surprised to learn the horribly

grotesquely violent crimes committed under the influence -- influence of methamphetamine now realize he was on -- who is up for one weeks straight of aaron mckinney. but the murder has overkill there was a continuous beating of the 357 magnum. sadly if you look into that crime the crimes committed under the influence of mass are horribly violent because usually they are in a psychotic state it is called death induced psychosis. one of the people that i researched the book with was a psychologist at ucla medical center who led the program on substance abuse and specifically it has been on the relationship between death and violence but there

is a fact that a lot of people don't know about the night of the crime and aaron mckinney behavior. in a 24-hour period that included the attack on matthew aaron mckinney in salted for males. then nate before aaron mckinney broke into his cousin's home where he knew a friend of his was stating that he had previous drug dealings did he attacked him claiming he owed him money for drugs. research has shown he's physically assaulted and attacked the four. once they got to the fence when he was attacking matthew when aaron mckinney was completely out of his mind, when russell henderson try to stop the beating beating, aaron mckinney took the murder weapon covered with blood and struck

wrestle henderson across the face. that night in the emergency room he got nine stitches and today this car is still very visible. now that something early on people were not aware of first of all, wrestle henderson never gave a complete taped confession at the time. after they left the fence area to go downtown to parker the truck they got into a fight it in the course of that aaron mckinney got this a murder weapon and smashed it into this guy's school and if you see photos there is a huge dash running across his head and he also got treatment in the emergency room that night. how is it aaron mckinney the salted for people one gave

male matt shepard in three straight men but the one instance was isolated as the anti-gay hate crime? in fact, one could easily say they were hispanic what i looked at is the nature of smith related violence i am not excusing it anyway what aaron mckinney did i just want to say there for many things going on that night this was is conflicted history between aaron mckinney and matthew shepard and some of the commentary recently is it still could be anti-gay hate crime because aaron mckinney was hopeful of it -- will fall back but the truth is in the court case there was not a hate crime law in real being

the case built by dutch prosecution they were not convicted of a hate crime it was not presented as a hate crime to the jury it was felony murder and related charges of kidnapping and aggravating factors. that is what they were convicted of. the decision was a hate crime was made by the media before they reach even arraigned before matthew was dead before they were retained florida murder. that happened almost overnight. before she was dead the president was making statements saying because of this we need to pace one dash pass the hate crime law in congress but the book is not an attempt to prove this was not a hate crime mike alrich and the book obviously hatred was a factor in what was going on but this was a confluence of

several factors the fact that aaron mckinney was after a shipment of drugs coming in that night 6 ounces of mess that had a street value of 10 or 12,000 in he was aware that shipment was coming in that you had an association with the denver-based group in beirut regular shipments summer he followed his steps to stop kim kevin that he was at the library for a few afternoons that afternoon in the left. from there he went to a bar that and other bar looking for bad you then eventually ended up at fireside but he knew exactly who was he was looking for. they were not strangers they bought and sold from each other back and forth and they also did have been intimate relationship which was based on parts of their

drug habit that according to sources one of the people in the book ted, there was tension between them sometimes sex was a form of payment but o'connor had sex with aaron mckinney and i quote him to say there is no doubt he was bisexual not about money or drugs he enjoyed having sex with other males. i know of that dancers the question is cholon answer but there is some background of the overkill that does not mean it is a hate crime because of a specific group of people were targeted whether rape or off the city but that is that a primary motivation for the attack did what i was saying is there other factors that have never been looked at

before? >>. >> how has the teeeighteen delegation reacted? vivid they have released a statement that i am not sure road to it appears that the executive director but i don't know if judy or other people of the foundation were involved. i am really paraphrasing because i don't have it in front of me but they said they will not respond to aid the window or a reliable sources and they will

continue the work they have been doing in matthew's name i said i admire tremendously the work the foundation has done. i interview jason extensively and also a judy sheppard was interviewed. when i would like to say i don't know if that statement came after a reading of the book or before the release because there were no direct references to the book itself for anything in the book as part of a response. if i could read a short passage of the book when i interviewed jason in 2004 he

was a journalist then if he knew that you quite well. this is what he said. the quick and easy description up at the shepard is about as far from the truth of what happened as it can get. to see the truth boiled down so much it is no longer the truth. the horrible irony that there is enough to offer some lessons and they were missed opportunities because of the shorthand of the media. you can see how it differs from the real person but there has been such a tremendous value of that icon created even the barest misrepresentation if it is important for you to know that. then this is just my statement.

later in the same interview when asked about the possible role of drugs in matthew's killing he replied as also this was videotaped so this is very credible statement. >> methamphetamine was a very big problem in wyoming at that time. i remember thinking especially when it started to come out that aaron mckinney was surrounded by people that were deep in to the methamphetamine problem. this perhaps was the most spectacular methamphetamine related crime that had ever happened in wyoming. it was very clear 10 years ago to those who were watching the problem he verge it would become discouraged of middle america in the rural community it dominates for a lot of people in our states we have needles on the side

of the road in drug materials that are thrown out the window i remember speaking at the time that the matthew shepard case was forever go down in history as one of the saddest examples of gay bashing also one of the saddest of the desperate lengths people of methamphetamine will go to. in this is what i said. what others may not have realized at the time is that aaron mckinney was not the only figure in this tragedy surrounded by people who were deep into the methamphetamine problem. that which helped to destroy his life in the shattering impact of the families of all three were never adequately examined their brought to light and in some cases were deliberately

covered up. so what i ask you to consider is the difference between the statement that is issued of the executive director today and a journalist of 2004. i had been accused of using and reliable sources that would make the key was not aware of that the time to the degree that matthew himself was involved with the math world. >> this is off the top of my head. i am from the midwest growing up in north dakota so maybe in nebraska but

they don't shoot dash empty farm house is because there could be a meth lab and it could explode and have a prairie fire. bet we did not have the internet or 24/7 coverage but today through the media of what is out there but there is is nothing to do in the small towns. that is true but as a child would have been fined. if i would the into being bored but when i pull back the camera there reminds me a lot of people died from aids and it is never published what they really die from even those little

towns people did not know what caused the death and they're probably a lot more related to methamphetamine. people disappeared and it is a big problem. i am told people on death normally don't buy books. [laughter] and an end of it has dipped to right now and. >> i am pleased of the education campaign at least the last five years it was a strong education campaign

and the views is down but you raised something i think is important also to add the economic conditions in a lot of the small towns that was also created because people realize it -- realized they could manufacture beth and could not make on minimum-wage if they could even get it. that one of the things i have spoken about in interviews is bite them the survivor of the first aids generation. i came out in the 1970's of the early '80s when aids began to hit i lost dozens of friends and acquaintances. it was something that what i experienced as many of my gay brothers experienced was like ptsdm just losing person after person. when i first learned of

crystal meth and what it was doing it not only terrified me by really made me upset and they agree it was the drive to get up so those people on crystal that there are rates showing higher rates of transmission for hiv with crystal meth attics than the general population because you feel powerful need you can do anything and nothing can hurt you. people were not using protection hoping to spread the virus. that made me very upset another reason why it was important to come out particularly because matthew was hiv-positive and was a part of the scene and as someone from my generation now at&t and aids is something we can live with

and there is treatment but back then it was literally a death sentence. so to see that coruscation and the meth epidemic is almost as he sees another wave but then silence equals death i saw crystal meth doing what it was doing. i felt an obligation to speak out. i'd noticed you nodding your head a little bit but when a my talking about the you are curious about?

>> i think i heard you on npr. there are three sides to every story. >> i am really looking for word and i did not write this as a political book but from a human point of view with empathy from whom he was but already before the book was published there was the tremendous amount of highly politicized commentary that people suggested from fox news i have been called all kinds of things and it is ridiculous but i am happy that this is going on. the human complexities our

important. knows single-minded thinking on any issue. in instances is on the right andrew sullivan being one person to have great admiration and i am glad he allowed me to talk with extent -- extensively it on "the daily beast" and the advocate and a very sympathetic piece and also always says magazine it is not like everybody says we do want to hear this. i mentioned a couple of gave riders but there is an article with the conservative not my political orientation but a very thoughtful piece in which he simply are accused

that truce matters that conservatives and liberals should be able to agree upon we will see where it goes but i hope it continues. >> eight you very much. [applause] >> i called bill and what is it? it was very warm. [laughter] i saw you on c-span that we

just one to peabody's but you should talk to the people because they don't thank you did. i will call you back. he said it was a poke. it is just as does prestigious. said there are two most prestigious awards and out is very prestigious. don't you think it is odd you got it wrong about a journalism award? he said if you want to go after rigo went ahead. i say okay. [laughter] so i call "the washington post" and i tell them the whole thing and she calls bill and he says i have a g tod against him. [laughter]