breakup of a mad, people yell, a cry, about what happened over 100 years ago. >> welcome to buildings montana with the help of our partners we bring you to the state's largest city the magic city known for oil and natural gas production and also cowboy culture for the next 90 minutes we explore the history of the region with local authors beginning with tom rust and his booktv 11 that looks at the calgary post built in 1857.

>> in the willow wind life and liberty in a democracy of the soil in the hearts of the soil. from the path waters the still waters we are placed in the middle of lodges that are different and that will never come so we will hit the sacred drums so we will let yesterday dance into obscurity all of us where we come from our one as a multi race america we just want to live in peace in the willow wind.

as was coined we started off with the earth slides on the misery with fervor and blocked up and we were friendly when they came in is what we call with the mountain lion six -- sits so since the inception of the white people we have worked along with them because in the chief stream the result whole in the ground and when it became nothing it then out of that whole the longhorn cattle then from where the sun comes out typically between the ground

and the sky. >> the wagons, and we knew that this life that we knew follow the buffalo would end and we live with these people that are coming so that is how we ended up to be a peaceful tribe to the people of the light-colored eyes and the late skids but we fought the suit and the shoshone so we were right in the middle of it so that is however a couple of -- poem for them to make us become nothing will never happen. the old man made the world for us and made us so in the

middle of all the other tries to get a bit of this but that will never happen that is what we have beautiful land that the warriors fought for. >> you see the history and so degeneration below me don't know that the signs were there no dogs are indians allowed but now the kids with the baggy pants and the whole works, they lost everything. they've lost everything so to have them hear it is all

right. but my local was the big boss on the reservation and always talking how you are a blade of grass and we can move. that is what life is. you ben dan to you move the don't be so dry and rigid but to show the people this is what i write about right now. i write about reality hell

of the houses are half of the with the of the road because the white contractors drive to the housing authority that this dick bill coleman is not very good that the two piece house is better for the indian so they paid the people all the many then they do that off of the reservation. it is important to know where you are from to know where your of life has been and where your blood has been.

that is why it is important. >> is on top of sheep and mountain. i am one of the ones that follow. >> with the help of our local -- local cable partner to look at the literary and cultural history. hear stories from the first of visitors to yellowstone national park. >> yellowstone was named a party to 72 -- 1870's to and was a discovery by coulter a member of the lewis and clark expedition and venture out on the way home and went

back id 1870. looking for indians to trade with as he passed through the park it was relatively called for about 20 years after coulter than detractors came through 18 '20s through 1840. said the prospectors of the '60s then people really began to wonder what was up there so it was more formally explored in the '70s. so they set it aside as if a park 1872 but my collection is the first person accounts one is of the mountain men who kept the leverage journal so we understand the people that visited the park early did a and i tried to

collect stories that represented the range of those experiences but with the trap being expedition he has a friend who will show some of the natural wonders of the park because they see things. this is what he said after surveying the natural wonders for some time my conrad conducted me to our spring. it is a hole about 15 inches in a matter that the water was boiling slowly 4 inches below the surface it began to boil and bubble finally in though water was rising she teamed up words and tell it rose to a height of

60 feet that it fell into the ground in drops into a circle of 30 feet period the a matter perfectly cold with hits the ground. that is one of the very air of the descriptions about 1839 it is remarkable that he does not know the word geyser or how to describe blooded means but he knows how to describe it nobody knows exactly where he was but one geyser basin is now defunct but light off old faithful will adopt every hour. three things is to watch the geysers then the hotel was built in the park during the

'80s. they would just don't their garbage is in the woods in the bears' discovered it pretty fast saw a "twilight" the bears would come out and ravage around in the tourist would come out to watch. the early encounters were people hunting bears. jack p. was a very colorful guy who came to one than a working as a trapper, a meat hunter for the army, with the custer battle he was among the people who went to recover custers body. id later became a yellowstone park guide he would go to him if you want to go hunting and he remained a hunting guide after a the park haloid it and to people to the

surrounding areas. here is very he guided a confederate colonel into the park and they cross the mountains and colonel ticket wants to be a bear hunter in fact, he does become a famous bear hunter. this is what jack been said about colonel pickering getting his first pair. >> now we left the rigid descended down we found another big bear on the trail coming toward us. i told the colonel there comes a bear. so i showed him. he walked quickly it's a trail i watched mr. baer and saw him leave the trail to go up the grassy hillside was afraid the colonel would shoot when he was right above him than the bear

would use him roughly but the colonel saw him about 30 yards away so i dismounted and stepped behind the colonel when he shot the bear it made a big growl and came down the hill on the run. the colonel did not know what was close behind him until i spoke i said hold his fire until he would jump the creek he would not do it. as he passed the colonel shot and missed when he crossed the creek i opened fire with my winchester by the time the colonel could load and was ready to shoot again i put five winchester balls into the bare. but the colonel gave him one last shot as he was falling as he rolled into the creek bet. that was legal 1870's 39 dash 1872 through 1886

people were the two hunt for sustenance. it was a wilderness of when they set up the park they wanted to allow hunting. the idea but had trophy hunters coming into the park looking for elk, moose, the bears come if they were decimating so that is one reason the army took over the devastation of the party to 86 to get some people in there to police the park to take care of the wildlife. there was the era where hunting was out of control. one woman went to the park in 1903 it is becoming pretty civilized by then there are good roads, but

eleanor decides she wants to camp. issue will bonds stay in the hotel. it is one of my favorite stories she came home one day and told her husband to expect a bill she bought a team and wagon and was taking the seven children to yellowstone park kitschy tells marvelous stories about driving the wagon across wyoming quarter to quarter it was quite a trip with the seven kids and how they learned to camp and hunt and fish and feed themselves and have adventures then one evening she decided to bake beans did here was her encounter with the bears. >> the beans are not done at bedtime so i put on more would thinking there'd be right for breakfast it was so hot the stove was outside

there was a clatter from the stove sure enough the bear had tipped over try to get my beans trying so hard to work with the oven door he failed to notice not until i through the things at him would he go away. i eight presume it would have been disappointing if at least one darr had not paid a visit we never thought about being afraid but i used of the ingenuity to hide debated in the sugar every night. there was a bare save to put your grocer's away the park would say to keep your food locked up the your car or in that they're safe but in this era, but the bears

wandered through the camp and got into the garbage can and into the people's camp in to the encounters were very common. the earliest were very cautious about the indians jacobean tells about one of his encounters with a band of blackfeet. that was common. by the time the park was settled it was named to the wide band of indians that lived there raggedy they've moved out to a reservation but there is the great adventure 1877 and that led to one of the most dramatic and best told stories of the

park. and it came to montana as a little girl. her father was with the gold rush and she kept hearing stories about the park since the time she was a little girl and wanted to visit. her father took her to be of its hot springs in the early 1870's and there she heard of the geysers of when she married she extracted a promise the he would take her and did 1870's seven he did but that is where they left their reservation in idaho trying to make their way to the buffalo country of montana with a plan to go live with the crow giving up their homeland to do this. one of the things that happened is they found and it and her tourist party

with her husband and sister and brother and friends and the indians came into the camp ground early in the morning and the tourist decided they would be so they packed up the wagon and headed out and the indians went with them and surrounded them escorting them out and as a cable long they encountered another band of indians and here is what emma says happened to. >> suddenly without warning shots rang out to indians came down the trail in front of us. my husband was getting off his horse and i wondered what the reason why this. ice you knew he fell as soon as he reached the ground he fell down a hill and the shots followed and all was confusion.

i was off with horsey and by my husband's side berry he lay against the tree the pressure on my shoulder was having me looking back and indian was trying to take a shot of my husband's head i leaned over my husband but to be roughly poehl decided and another step up the pistol shot rang out and his head fell back and the red stream trickles down under his hat. emma's account is a gem of history she wrote that 25 years after so obviously these memories were vivid. one of the things that you need to know is that george survived.

in another book i am working on it is a whole books of the encounters but george's story to discover he was shot three times was unable to walk it is a touching story and also a pretty dramatic as he crawls 12 miles to find help for he is picked up by soldiers. when i put together the proposal for adventures in yellowstone i had 250 stories collected at that time now it is closer of 400. i put to the book together with the one dozen best attack the notion of adventure very seriously and collected stories where people really encountered some difficulty to have

something difficult happen to them they are nice descriptions of what happened and what they saw but the adventures of the of the stone for people who have high in ventures or a county -- herby be humorous things like chasing of bare away from the campfire. that is the story of adventures of yellowstone. >> now we look at the billings public library bookmobile. >> i am the librarian for that building is a public

library 302,000 towns without books and quite a few are on here about the same this is a hybrid vehicle who almost ran do they just got a last winter will be in service for about four months we bring books, videos, cds and things out to the county the billings public library just as the one main branch downtown so for the of reach we like to get items out to the residence because people are spread out in a montana. >> be careful going id and out. >> but to go to senior centers and schools and neighborhoods, all over the county. to debris here at a school

it on the crow reservation there are about 40 students here and is one of the few left in the area. >> we have a satellite hookup, the laptop they can use the library card. it is the same we just use a laptop and sometimes if it is a new role period the internet does not work then i just scanned it then upload invaders. >> most places like tom every two weeks so we just make them do when i come we don't charge them may be

because then that is another two weeks so that is nice. >> durbin it -- normally it is parked at the library and another lady who helps to restock but we are not able to do that right now we have to keep it in a secure bought so to stock it i just fill up baskets in my car i enjoy driving it. is fun and it is nice i enjoy abt all the people i meet all different kinds of people and of my favorite things is to go to the senior centers when they have led to a and eats lunch with them and the kids are fine at schools. >> we do serve a lot of people until we can get some

bridges this is the next best thing but i think the book will deal has its own unique appeal because it has a fun way to bring the books to people we're very lucky to have this wonderful truck. there are not many 89 left in the united states, about 700. we have a really nice one there are a lot of pictures online and compared to a lot of places we have a very nice bookmobile. >> i have found this battle to be one of the most remembered in history it has

a one of the handful of battles even kids with history in high school kid remember a and get right to even if they note it as incorrect. even nationally traveling to other countries people say montana? that is where custer was from and that is the beginning of the conversation. so this is a battle with international significance. the battle was june 25, june 25, 1876, it was building over days and weeks and months and the climactic actions were two hours that afternoon. leading up to it was a struggle overlay and as most

landed and in 1868 at fort laramie with color-coded nation had recognized that and was on most of western south dakota and that was fine in 1968 but then a few years later the gold was discovered in the black hills then they wanted to renegotiate the treaty by force and that is what the army was trying to do to compel the agency's to renegotiate the treaty to concede more of the land. custer came from hall one based the east into the valley of the little big horn and had a long ride

that day was trying to catch the indians before they discovered him if he thought they would disperse so he would try to get a surprise attack. he had a problem he would have preferred an attack at dawn but that was not possible so it was about 3:00 in the afternoon he split forces into three groups one attack and when did scouting a and custer himself in the largest body continued that position on the ridge overlooking the valley and the indian village. his actions were somewhat of a blistering that is part of the mystique of the battle but from the indian point of view they met the attack from one direction moved to face the potential attack

from custer over here on last stand hill and that is where the conclusion that least for custer was and where he died. after the battle it and the cries for revenge a new round of fighting that lasted in fits and starts into the winter and tell finally by the next spring crazy horse and the largest band of lakota went to the reservation. sitting bull took a smaller number of suits with him north to canada as of the united states government did in fact, get its way and the treaty was renegotiated and the lakota were forced illegally most people conclude, but to concede a large part of the black hills.

i say illegally because that is still in the courts to this day under contention of the ownership of the black hills. >> the biggest misconception is custer's last band suggest he was fighting a defensive action when he was attacking a village and the last stain and was questioned by archaeological evidence and to accounting for the indians of the valley so that changes the field from custer's last stand to relieve the last stand of the northern plains indians, the last major victory for the northern plains indians. in addition to the myth is that custer was overwhelmed

by a superior numbers that he was surprised it and then overwhelmed and of course, there were a lot of suits and cheyenne warriors come of more than he expected but not that many. so the idea he was over run it by superior numbers is a myth. they actually e. outfought they were better fighters. more aggressive, the more spirited and they had sitting bull's vision that told them haven't was on their side that this would be their day and they believe that and felt the righteousness of their cars. so that confidence and fighting spirit did tester id more than numbers. i approached this because i felt the mythological story

was will told a and believed by the students in my class is for instance if i wanted to tell a different story to make sure the variety of perspectives were told and felt vividly. i approached that with great trepidation because i was telling other people's stories of military bet and the soldiers that fought. i was telling native americans began to i wish using my historian objectivity to tell a story of some of the emotional content of the 19th century struggles.

i started with their perspectives and attitudes to the battle from the crow they were disappointed that custer had lost because they were allies that day fighting against what they saw was the lakota intrusion on their land in eastern montana. of lakota participants were defending themselves and their way of life the ability to follow the buffalo to remain free indians not subservient to the united states government so i try to pick up as many of those perspectives and voices as i could. from the perspective of the united states calvary i tried to say something about the experience not just

custer but the soldiers celeb for those accounts in this story for instance there is a young man from prussia and move to escape in the rv and then did not speak much english and then he joined the army to learn english should have a job now he was riding around the montana hills hunting indians if he was surprised to be here and survived and left a rich account of that experience. the account of little big horn is it is appointed history where people get excited coming in because of the bad, they yell, a cry, what happened over 100 years ago a story with extraordinary power for some

people to confirm manifest denis day and the movement during the 19th century in for some people a story of great tragedy and pain because it is a reminder of the suffering the native people experienced during the 19th century of the land that was taken so it is still a very powerful story from any perspective. and a battle that is increasingly more interesting as united states pursues some warriors such as afghanistan where instead of are maize such as rolled or two were fighting to real love like strategies than that resembles this battle much more than the world war

ii strategies. so people in the military as well as popular culture pay attention to this part of our history. i would like people to take away a sympathetic understanding of the experience of the late 19th century of the pain and trauma but also the complexity of history that it is not simply a morality play bikes of the western movies wearing the black cat tour the white hat but the characters are complex and the good people and a wide variety of positions and

those who were good or bad for those to make a snap moral judgments those that judge the best interest was due cooperate. the croatian as a general practice decided their best interest of way to maintain the homeland was to cooperate with the whites coming into their country. there is a great friday and complexity to encourage seeing white government.

>> this type -- this kind of muddy and it is amazingly literate states in general but here you have a gathering of intellectuals and literary types. we read all over the spectrum. we are fascinated with places and this has a history that is one of the kind for a bookseller magazine articles but to have a thriving the recall chair i save fictional with literary work key authors here in 10 don't, in this state search of the missoula is renowned for its literary

scene i'd like thomas savage is a huge name it is rarely an important part of who we are and we are so and so are the last best place charlie goes on and on how much she loves montana it drives all over the united states. and that combination with the fact we have the amenities that you want for a full and happy life and that attracts people is easy to work here i think to slip

into montana to have it what he drives you artistically it is a place that pervades everything of western identity the relationship with the they and their relationship with the history and the culture and that is a big backdrop for a work of nonfiction with the endless supply of books of little big horn. it is monday to seek the event that was reasonably short in duration happening along time ago there is always new ground but montana is its own self

contained university of people really do like to read about where they live and their history and there is a connection among people who grew up here especially those of several generations their relationship that might have forbearers who came over to homestead then it is a real hard connection to the land. >> the premise of the book is in the 19th century after the civil war the american culture was

genetically week and reconstructed with the nation itself in what might call off their sought to explore is how the math culture took form in the united states and how will was exported to europe in the cave a way by which the europeans and americans us so we look at the transmission in the reception in europe between the end of the civil war and the 1920's. it starts at the end of the civil war as a question how do you put the country back together again many historians look at the political system in that structure is assembled and what we argued is in addition to take into

account how a culture is put back together again as the united states it becomes it interesting entity growing by leaps and brown -- leaps and bounds and americans are confronted with the real challenge with the process of reconstruction of how you get people of different backgrounds from different ethnic backgrounds how you get people to imagine themselves as americans? then it gets real interesting because buffalo bill wild west, world affairs all become pretty important aspects to get

americans to think of themselves as americans but to think of those for a long while but it does begin with the world's fair in london the national exhibition the crystal palace in 1851 the americans made the factures begin to put america isn't there a system of production than that picks up speed after the civil war beyond what we argue in the book in many respects buffalo bill wild west into the united states in the air the 18 eighties become part of the export process throughout the united kingdom in the continent of europe so through these exhibitions and spectacles americans and

europeans feel about what the culture is all about depending if you are with the imperial power or in a business person or the ordinary person so there are different perceptions but the common denominator is tremendous curiosity that the europeans fighting on themselves if united states did not seem so united with hundreds of thousands of people killed how could this place comeback to be something different? so with that curiosity the

be that is part of the law of long dialogue to pick up after that conflict that reaction to buffalo bill is pretty interesting because europeans had not seen this kind of traveling show on this scale before it because he never called it a shell but it the authentic representation of the american west and traveled with elk and deer and horses and cowboys and native americans with him in the overwhelming reaction was of utter amazement not just people dashing around on horses with athleticism but

the way the show was set up so portable and remarkable with the representation of nature and the wild west using the latest techniques in billboard and saturation media incredible organization of all actors you have to feed them and move from place to place with the sheer organizational genius buffalo bill reflected some pretty profound changes was being reorganized with the development of industrial organization the government intervenes not directly but gets involved because the

show would paul's a lot of native americans in there is a real tension between india and reformers and american indians and a bake argument if they should be allowed to participate in the show as quote-unquote savages or me represented as people who are perfectly capable to be coming maundered americans and the school movement is quite tragic with the debate of the wild west show but it does intersect with american foreign policy and the rise of america's stature after the civil war so the show itself becomes interesting as part of'' america's global reach has the show

develops across ctc's elderly twentieth century the people involved in the performance include not know the american indians but malaysia, assyria, people across the middle east so there is a sense there is a congress of performers or the roughriders really reflect the ability of the united states personified by buffalo bill. so there are these interesting overlays between the show as a private enterprise and certain aspects of foreign policy. so we try to look at the relationship of the entertainment and pop culture and foreign policy for some people that may seem odd that there is that photograph in berlin during

the cold war with a jazz program broadcast and i think as we speak today the american basketball star dennis rodman is addressed to re-enter trying to win the release of some of very kid missionary so it is interesting how you get that policy entertainment and celebrity by the time of the first world war the government completely embraces masson attainment with the techniques to get the word out of the american perspective of world war i so there is an interesting government situation set up and basically functions as the propaganda that is

putting the messages out but also becomes deeply involved by sensory with the motion pictures so in the limit had there is several dozen people working maybe not darkrooms but philip get film the hollywood is producing in say if you want to export this film you have to get rid of these scenes so all of that directors have their film's subject to censorship by the same token the government relies on film as a reflection of a product of a mass culture to get the message out to see what you find by road or one

is american mass culture is not just developing it is part and parcel of american life how people overseas understand who we are and of course, a topic of conversation in debates in the issues that we address in the book how do you think about globalization in terms of the impact of other cultures to rethink of globalization of imperialism to run the risk of other cultures as passive victims urged we look at the reception will relocate your mcdonald's? how to advertise a lot of

people in the anthropology year down engaged so it is an ongoing field of interest and raises interesting questions i used to try to contextualize to suggest if we look at the rise of mass culture that people around the world have had a different experience than what people realize solitude extend this debate out to give some history i think has been very interesting.

>> what is the n.y.p.d. and tell you did? >> it is nothing else that exist the new police commissioner decided he could not rely on the federal government to keep this city safe anymore he needed his own intelligence he bled to it recruited a man to go run the intelligence division and he was the former deputy director of operations for the n.y.p.d. the tops by just like that of the movie a retirement it recruited an additive in retirement to start something new eight wire we taking somebody from the cia to put them inside the municipal police department so there is this

radical moment that they say we will not focus on solving crime are making case is but just here to gather intelligence so this incredible decision reid never understood the significance of for many years so they look at all the bad 11 hijacker portfolios and look for commonalities had we noticed this maybe we could have done something so they created team of clean clothes detectives of arab descent and sent them out into the neighborhood to eavesdrop where were the egyptian coffee shop where

do rockets get their hair cut? people of palestinian descent where they watch soccer? they created ethnic map of the city that was the foundation of a ted year extremely secret program. >> host: has this been a successful? >> so looking at the most significant terrorist plot that al qaeda and leased bloodier cities instead 11 is the plot would of the top deputies hatched to set in motion to block the deere city's subways in 2009 and was the book shows is as the plot is unfolding the n.y.p.d. has 1 million opportunities to catch his friends added every turn the program fails.

>> he is the central antagonist of the book he is a kid that is the afghan american he was westernized supported the invasion of afghanistan after an 11 that like a lot of kids to fatah the system drop out of high-school and his disenchanted and a degree then turned to the internet then became more radicalized he became convinced like the russians before us that we were occupiers a and invaders and they decided they would fight with the taliban so they just bought a plane tickets and said if we can get across the border we will look up and one of

the co-conspirators said we will be taliban in general so they make it to the front tear and they stumble their way around the who finds them but al qaeda pass and there is a network of secret operations of pakistan and shows how they stumble into al qaeda and are trained for the suicide mission by would've the top deputies of a summit and nodded trade inactivated to make the extremely devastating bomb and return to the united states and it is a 48 hour race to prevent the bomb. >> host: we will put the numbers on the screen.

we're speaking with the investigative correspondent with the associated press and co-author of this book. . .

they failed at every turn. meanwhile this machine is generating huge amounts of information on innocent people. two people were talking at a coffee shop about what they thought about president bush's state of the union address and that goes into a police file. people at a barbershop are dressed in traditional devout muslim attire and it goes into the police file. where people watch soccer and where people watch cricket. all these goes and files and you end up with this huge amount of data. what we show is that there is a process in place that did work and hopefully we leave americans with a sense of you know hope that a lot of what failed on 9/11 did work to catch the zazi in the end. we obviously know that the subway is going to blow up that it's a real chase and we were lucky because we got to talk to a lot of the cia fbi and nypd guys who are on the ground

working around-the-clock to make this case. >> host: so there was a lot of coordination cooperation between the three agencies? >> guest: this all begins and frankly the only reason i think the subways don't blow up is that zazi is trying to perfect the bomb recipe the second component of this bomb and the e-mails one of his contacts in pakistan. basically an al qaeda e-mail address a yahoo! account and as it happened 18 months earlier the british government had taken down a terrorist cell in the u.k. and they had found that yahoo! address. they passed it to the nsa which went up and started looking at the e-mail address and as soon as the e-mail came in from the united states to that address the nsa pasta to the cia and passed to the fbi who posted to the nypd and officials in colorado where zazi was living in that happen in rapid succession. i think that is a good take away

for cooperation post-9/11 that real good cooperation does work and frankly the traditional police pack fix that worked for america and worked for the fbi for so many decades that have kind of, underscore ignani and maybe people think don't work to fight terrorism things like reading people their miranda rights are questioning them over long periods of time watching and waiting. those kinds of things and in the end those work and we didn't need secret prisons and we didn't need water wording or guantánamo bay and it worked in the end. collaboration coordination and smart policing work to keep america safe. >> host: how were you able to get access to a lot of these records? >> guest: adam goldman mike koether and i reported for the "associated press" and for about 18 months from 2011 to mid-to

early 2013 we were reporting on the "associated press" and through our porting we met dozens of people in the nypd who were willing to send their stories to us and provide us with documents as spelled out in great detail how the intelligence division has grown in size and groaning and intrusiveness and almost the intimacy in terms of what they are going to collect on american citizens in secret with no review. we had help from a lot of people in law enforcement and adam and i covered security so a lot of people that cracked the zazi piece were people we knew professionally because we cover the zazi case in real-time. >> host: the first call for matt apuzzo comes from melissa ann coulter is to vermont. hi alyssa. >> caller: hi how are you? coase go good. please go ahead.

>> caller: what was the background in college that got you into investigative writing and stuff? it's so unusual. >> host: she wanted to know your background in college. >> guest: i'm what happens if you are a pre-med student and you get a d in organic chemistry. i'm not a career path anyone should attempt to follow. i went to a wonderful liberal arts school in maine called kolbe college. i was a biology major. i did not go to medical school. i worked at the local paper in waterville morning sentinel to learn basic reporting. i went to a small newspaper in massachusetts and worked my way up to the ap so it was on-the-job learning. i did not go to school for this. >> host: is david cowen still involved and is this program --

>> guest: david colon the former cia deputy are still on the job at the nypd. through the years dave has actually helped gotten the cia to send an act if duty cia officers to new york to help build these programs are the architect of what has been known as the demographics unit. this is the unit that eavesdrops in neighborhoods. that architect was in that duty cia office named larry sanchez in another unprecedented move in american law enforcement. the cia is not to be collecting inside the united states but the lions club word after 9/11. after we started reporting on this in 2011 then cia director david petraeus decided it didn't look good to have a cia guy sitting inside of a uniformed police department so now if the

cia and nypd want to collaborate they have to go through official channels and there can't be this sort of murky area. >> host: elizabeth ferrari posts on our twitter feed what do you think about the case against bruce ivins which you have reported on? first of all who is bruce ivins? >> guest: bruce ivins is the scientist to us about to be charged in the 2011 anthrax killings but he took his own life beforehand. you know i think the fbi and the justice department felt they have their man and certainly a lot of the reason they feel like they had their man is because there is no better explanation. certainly the evidence against him is circumstantial but there's a lot of circumstantial evidence against him. you know i do think the best argument that they don't have the right man is that for many

years they thought they had the right and therefore a guy named steven hatfield who ended up being completely innocent and had steven hatfill taken his own life the fbi would have said we are done here and walked away. unfortunately for everybody dr. i can stick his own life and he obviously had problems and the case never went to trial. i think it would have -- one of my takeaways is it would have been good for everybody had the case gone to trial. we would have gotten closure because they're people who will never believe the ivins was the anthrax killer. >> host: the next call for matt apuzzo comes from john in wisconsin. john muir on both tv. >> caller: i was wondering to what extent do public record laws played in your reporting on this issue and on the book lacks >> guest: no role whatsoever because the nypd basically

ignores open records request on a regular basis. new york's public advocates scored the nypd has terrible for responding to public records requests. you can't get a police request. you can't get a mugshot 911 call. they have a little press room at the nypd called the shack and they'll have phones on their desk. if the nypd wants to feed your information they pick up the phone and they'll bring. they summarize the reports for you and those they decide are knuth newsworthy. it's an incredible media machine that they run there which makes it extremely hard to question what you are getting but as you can get public records. the nypd created out of thin air created something called nypd secret. it's stamped it looks like it's classified. it's a secret on it but that has the force of law of somebody riding no girls allowed on the treehouse.

they just made it up. we are spies and we need a thing that says nypd secret. it doesn't mean anything but they won't give you the documents. there's no law saying they can do that but they just did it. >> host: matt apuzzo how do people get away with this? >> guest: nobody questions them i guess. it takes money. it takes time to fight back and you know the nypd is smart. most journalist in new york city their job is to cover the day today and it disincentivized is people to make waives when you rely on the nypd officially for almost everything you do every day. >> host: brandon in new york city. good afternoon. >> caller: hi created i'm wondering how is this sponsored? >> guest: a great question. it's a great question.

the nypd intelligence division's budget is 30 to 40 million dollars a year so we are talking about 300 to $400 million. most of that comes from the city council which has never held a hearing into what the intelligence division does and until we started reporting on it had no idea about the files they were building on people and the surveillance programs. some of the money comes from the white house through a sort of obscure anti-drug granted that helps pay for the cars and the computers and a lot of the money comes from the homeland security justice department which again they say we have no ability to know what's going on and no ability to question whether these programs are effective or whether they work and how they operate and whether they are -- >> host: matt apuzzo we began our conversation talking about some of the infiltration. are those still going on? is there any kind of a sense of paranoia among some of the

mosques in new york city? >> guest: one of the most creative things the nypd was they would send informants into mosques and if you are investigating somebody inside the mosque and you send an informant in to keep tabs on them you can only keep in your files with that person you are investigating says that with the nypd had was they created this investigatory class called the terrorism enterprise investigations were basically they said if we believe that a group of people are plotting terrorism we can investigate them as a group. it's basically a way to investigate a terrorist cell so they took that label and they applied it to at least a dozen mosques and now anybody who shows up at that mosque can be a subject of the investigation. so they can set up license plate readers outside of mosques and collect license plates of everyone who shows up. they have secret recording devices that can record sermons. if the mosque is the terrorism

enterprise anyone who goes there is fair game and these investigation stretch on for years and years. there's never been a terrorism enterprise case made against a mosque but it's a great way to keep your intelligence pipeline coming in. and yes the still continue. >> host: have any other cities set up an intel unit? >> guest: the idea of intelligence led policing is in a vanguard right now. this idea up we wanted to play our assets based on what the intelligence is telling us that the truth is no one has done it the way the nypd has done it and that may be because the nypd is twice the size of the fbi. there is no police police department country that has the manpower to 35,000 people to create this kind of unit. and you know what they have the political will to do it. larry sanchez testified before congress and was asked how the nypd does counterterrorism and one of the things he said was --

he said this to congress. we believe you can no longer look at activities that would be protected by the first and fourth amendment. we can no longer look at them as protected by the first amendment. we have to look at them through the lens of being potential precursors for terrorism and that is way we interpret it. no one stopped to say wait a minute. the nypd is reinterpreting big constitution? congress just the thank you. it really is a fundamental shift in american policing that new yorkers have given them the political cover that is very popular. the counterterrorism remains very popular. >> host: we have been talking with matt apuzzo a pulitzer prize winner for investigative reporting. here is his book cowritten with adam cowen enemies within, inside the nypd secret spying unit and bin laden's final plot against america. a.

>> the for the next seven hours booktv will bring you coverage from the 25th annual southern festival of books in nashville tennessee. we will hear from author katie butler on improving end-of-life care james swanson on the kennedy assassination and scott mcclenahan on his experiences growing up in west virginia. first linda barnickel talking about her book "milliken's bend" a civil war battle in history and memory. >> good morning. i would like to welcome those who are here with us and c-span2 booktv viewers to humanities

tennessee's 25th annual southern book festival here in nashville. my name is nathan and i'm honored to introduce the sessions author linda barnickel. ms. barnickel is the author of several books here choose an archivist freelance writer and master's degree from ohio state university as well as the university of wisconsin-madison. ms. barnickel currently works at the national public library and in the special collections division. she is here with us today to discuss her new book "milliken's bend" which i understand receive the 2013 jules and francis landry award from the lsu press for the most significant contributions to southern studies of any book published by the lsu press during 2013. also the current issue of the civil war times magazine called "milliken's bend"'s stellar and it was hailed by civil war books and authors as a quote and exhaustively researched gem and that a model for future combined

battle studies. a little housekeeping. we will have time at the end of our presentation for questions. if you do have a question please queue up at the microphone. at the conclusion of the session ms. barnickel will be moving directly to the signing colonnade in the plaza outside of the memorial auditorium where you can purchase a copy of her book and hopefully get assigned. please silencer cell phones and without further ado ms. barnickel. >> thank you very much. i appreciate you coming out here on a saturday morning. "milliken's bend" is a long forgotten fight that took place on june 7 come, the 1863 not far from pittsburgh. at the time it was really just kind of a federal outpost. by this time time grants army was besieging pittsburgh so the

majority of the trip is for and trenched around vicksburg. it was a small outpost of a fight that took place there. it only had about 1500 men on either side. let me backtrack a little bit before that june 7 battle to place here. back in the spring in april of 1863, all up and down the west bank of the mississippi river north and south of milliken's band this whole region was where the federal troops grants army was massing and gathering before they later went down south on louisiana side and crossed over to vicksburg. there were thousands and thousands of federal troops in that region in the spring.

adjutant general lorenzo thomas came from washington and came to the mississippi valley that spring and his mission was to recruit as many regiments as he could. he had the authority from the president to do so. he went all up and down that region making speeches and encouraging white soldiers who were in grants army to become officers in these new black regiments. now these officers would be white men only and they would not receive their new officers pay until they had recruited their regiment up to full strength. so that gave him extraordinary incentives to grab anybody they could and enlist then list them into their regiment right away.

in addition, come most of these officers had not been officers prior to this. you had situations where you might have a sergeant who got promoted all the way up to captain and that of several grades in rank that he skipped. the officers were learning their duties. it was something new and this whole idea of enlisting black men in the union army was definitely a new idea at this point. everybody was learning and feeling their way through this. so the white officers began to form kind of this nuclei of these african-american regimens. in northeast louisiana that was cotton country. it's exactly what we think of when we think of the old south

of the myths where you have fields and fields of cotton, hundreds of slaves laboring on the plantations. that's exact date what northeast louisiana was like. these new officers go out and they begin recruiting and organizing their regiments. this was in may 1963. both officers and enlisted men which learning their new duties for the former slaves. they are receiving weapons and uniforms. they are getting some training but everybody is kind of trying to figure out their new roles and their new jobs. the weapons they receive are kind of castoffs and expectation was that they would be a garrison force to remain at these outpost to the main union army which was white soldiers who moved on in their mission to take vicksburg.

so this is the situation at the time. let me just recap real quickly. january 1 was in the final emancipation proclamation was issued. it provided for the enlistment of black men in the union army. unlike the preliminary emancipation. the final emancipation did have that distinction that lachman would he in the army. in april lorenzo thomas comes to meet the officers in and made the officers go and begin to reprint the black soldiers among the former slaves and their old learning their duties. remember i said they were going to be out posts at the garrison troops. there was not an expectation that would be any significant combat clothes and that's another reason why these white officer positions were so attracted.

they would get in extreme increase in pay in the surgeons pay would be $17 a month. if you got a new officers position you would get $60 a month. a lot of officers that would be a cushy job and there were some the word genuine abolitionists who care deeply about this duty. that is the situation and early june, the june 7 day that a coal -- the of milliken's bend starts. they were all learning how to use their weapons. some of them didn't even know where their caps were. they had a cap pouch on their belts and some of them didn't even know where to find their caps. this image gives you a very good idea of the nature of the fight. a lot of times you can't always

rely on these because it's an artist's rendering but this is actually a fairly accurate portrayal of what occurred at milliken's bend. there's a lot of violent combat musket fights and i will just read a passage here that i think will give you a good idea that will give the nature of the fighting at this particular point in the battle. many of them stopped to reload. many confederate took time to take the beat on the yankee officer who was yelling to his men give them hell give them hell give them hell. the soldier wrote his father day later. i took deliberate aim at his press 2 inches below to the right of the second button and sent it all and preib oakeshott. he fell with the word hell on his lips. he many could get off only two

or three rounds before the lines of battle closed. the fight erupted into a melee word in it and musket were used. a rare occurrence in civil war battles. first lieutenant david cornwell one of the white officers with the black troops watched the initial attack from his position with two companies in the way of savannah. the nine police unit despite it's -- it is a unit. captain heath and second lieutenant smith were with company b on the far left of the union line. he he took up a musket to aid in defense but the southern forces poured over like a tidal waive. he then a few others cut off up sort by the confederate line as prisoners. seen his comrades overwhelmed cornwell sprang into action yelling now backs them bullies as he met his men forward. he is a former slave. smashing his rifle into any

rebel within range. within moments he held only the barrel of his weapon a wooden stock shattered in his hands. cornwell sought jack's dad multiple times by bayonets but his friend did not slow down. because of his size and his fury jeff became a special target. he was soon killed by a bullet to the head. not long after a bullet struck cornwell's right arm shattering the bone ever sold -- older but he stayed in action. the plucky confederate soldier who sent an office officer to help recounted we charged the bayonet for full one minute you mind taking this was a huge black who fired and missed me and try to strike me. i stab my bayonet through him twice and he then struck at me. i thrust my gun to ward off the blow. the black soldier crashed his musket onto the southerner shoulder nearly breaking his shoulder blade. i then set my band-aid --

bayonet through him which blew them all to pieces. mccullough is a confederate general praise his men in their deadly work. there were several instances in the charge with and to meet cost bayonets and were shot down. no charges ever more gallantly made than this and the enemy were not only driven from the levy but followed intra-camp were many were killed. he had mixed reviews for his enemy including his surprising grace. this charge was enlisted by the enemy's force with considerable obscenity conceded while the white yankees ran liked quipped kurz almost as soon as the charge was ordered. that gives you a little bit of an idea of what this fight was like. here is the scene. the confederate forces were all texas troops. let me use the pointer. the 19th texas were the first

to engage the yankee forces over here. these are two levees better writing against the bank of the mississippi river. the 19th texas comes along and they assault the union line with the ninth louisiana and again these are union units despite their names. confederate forces get around the corner here and flanked them and the ninth louisiana falls that gratis creates a domino cascading effect all up and down the kenyan line. the two regiments in the middle here run away almost immediately. they have extremely small casualties particularly given the scene that i just described. 23rd iowa was actually a white regimen and it was only about half of the full regiment. they had seen action at black river bridge just a few weeks before and had sustained heavy casualties there. they were experienced white

governance. they were really the only battle tested on the field that day. the confederate troops had been in the service for a year and a half but they spent us of that time marching around. a week before milliken's bend they had engaged one regiment of white troops at a place called perkins landing. just a week before and it was a cakewalk. it was a pushover. the confederate forces only have one man killed in that fight and the yankees ran. they come into this fight thinking the same thing is going to happen here. we are going to go in and rip the yankees and we will be done. so the union line is disintegrating and the 23rd iowa had spent the night on the transport boat. they were just getting off into their line of battle when the confederate side came their way. again they were veterans and immediately unsustainable so they were retreated back to the

riverbank. river bank. the 11th louisiana was the largest regiment at milliken's bend but as this confederate forces coming this way they are also overwhelmed. they run back to the river bank. two companies the 11th louisiana stand firm on the far right of the union line. about this time the gunboat choctaw opens up onto the confederates throwing a 100-pound shelled into the confederate line here and that prevents the entire annihilation of the garrison. once the choctaw opens up the confederates cannot advance. a little bit later another gunboat comes up and joins the fight and at that point the confederates realize they're not going to be a will to take this position and they withdraw.

so who won? if you ask the enlisted men on the confederate side it was a smashing victory. they had caused great casualties among the federal defenders. they had nearly taken the position if it hadn't have been for the gunboat's they would have run the union forces back into the river. it was a victory for them. henry mccullough as i just read size side has a victory as well. even though he did concede that they black soldiers fought well which you would expect the confederate general to say especially since it was new for everybody. we need to talk about the union side in how they viewed it. the confederates with jared from the field so the union forces

claimed victory because they had repelled the confederate forces. in addition it had great propaganda value because this was a situation where former slaves were engaged in severe fights. they did fight with great courage even though they were quickly overwhelmed. you heard some of the descriptions of that. it depends on who you ask, it depends on a whim. major general richard taylor was in command -- he is a couple levels up from henry mccullough. he didn't really see it the same way. he was very disappointed. he said you should have been able to take this position. i haven't seen such feared gunboats since the start of the war. he was very disappointed and he certainly did not see it as a victory. go one up a little further.

m kirby smith was in charge of the confederate region west of the mississippi river so he was the top general out there and he wrote to tailor that i hope your your support in and it's recognized the propriety of giving no quarter to armed blacks and their officers. in other words take no officers. kill them. shoot them down. we don't want to deal with this problem. fast-forward a little bit and in august -- actually let me back up before we get to this. there were rumors almost immediately after the battle that prisoners -- union prisoners taken at milliken's bend had been executed by the confederates. it was never substantiated, at least not yet.

grant wrote to tailor and said what is this i hear? he says i don't know anything about it. so there were great concerns about what happened to the black and white prisoners who were taken at milliken's bend about 100 men. fast-forward to august 1863. union general john stephenson takes a division of men how to monroe louisiana. it ends up being a very short expedition because he gets to monroe and the next day he gets called back to the mississippi river. so they are not there very long. in that group is a man named major john davis. he was an officer in the ninth louisiana with milliken's bend and he made it his special mission to try to find out what happened specifically to captain corrigan heath who was captured

at milliken's bend. they hadn't heard anything about him or where he was and whether he was formerly a prisoner or what. as a result of the questions that major davis was asking in monroe talking to confederate soldiers in the confederate hospital there, that he was talking to union loyalists. he received testimony that corrigan heath dr. corrigan heath and the lieutenant from the 11th louisiana which turned out to be george conn had indeed been executed there in monroe. now at the time like i said they rape got recalled immediately to go back to the mississippi river so that is kind of as far as it got in that particular point in time. however, come there was a report

and in fact major davis's report ended up going all the way to the secretary of war and even the investigative committee and congress. one of the significant points about milliken's bend is that report contributed in some manner to the cessation of prisoner exchange between north and south. now what i have since found there were black troops taken prisoner there and only those two officers were the officers taken prisoner at milliken's bend. all of the rest of the prisoners were black troops. most of what i found indicated that they were not executed but they were returned to slavery. there is also some indication that some of them were treated as regular prisoners of war because they do return to their regiment at the end of the word. milliken's bend contributed to the breakdown of prisoner exchanges and also there is a

recruiting poster that says are free men bless grave than slaves? it was used to encourage free blacks in the north to join the union army because after all if men who had just been slaves can equip themselves so well in battle shouldn't we be down there fighting as well? along with port hudson which took place elsewhere in louisiana a week before this fight and then fort wegner which took place a month later in south carolina milliken's bend helped kind of wake up the northern whites to the idea that maybe this idea of enlisting black men in the union army might work out okay. milliken's bend was unique when compared to those other two battles because at milliken's

bend the majority of the union force for african-american troops. that was not the case in the other two battles. in addition they were former slaves which again was not the case at the other two battles. milliken's bend today no longer exists. it was washed away years and years ago but there has been a renewed interest. but it was a very small find but an important fight and that is what part of motivated me to write the book. i had to know more and the more i've went on to greater questions i had. there are all sorts of twists and turns to the story, the unexpected things like the black troops thought -- fought well and it's a story that i think has been missing from civil war history for a long time.

so that is the end of my formal presentation. i do have a web site where you try to post when i can. there is more information on the battle they are and also links to the e-books if your inches in those and we will open it up for questions. oh i do have to tell you that i'm leaving out an awful lot of stuff. this is only about two chapters in the book. any questions then please use the microphone in the back. >> you did you happen to discover how the black troops were recruited? was there any impressment or was it all volunteer? >> thank you. good question. there was a lot of impressment. there was no such thing as drafts for black troops but in this region many of the parishes along the river there before the

war in 1860 had 80 to 90% slave population. again keep in mind these officers. they want to get as many people as they can as fast as they can because then they can get paid. you also have a number of regiments, kemeny regiments organizing in the area at the same time so will some of the competition to see who could recruit the quickest. many of the men were literally arched off the plantation. the recruiters would go in and say okay i can see all the men over here. okay we are going. another thing that i didn't really talk about but there were very large what we call contraband camps which were kind of like refugee camps and pretty much in this region if you were an african-american male between the ages of 15 and 60 you were

probably marched off into the army. >> during your presentation and he mentioned one of the determining factors was -- in your research not just in this instance, go did they teach at west point when grant was there a coordinated concept of gunboat? i know that he really used those boats very effectively and at vicksburg campaign but i wonder and i have thought of this question and i figured you are an expert. do you know whether they had a coordinated warfare? >> thank you.

>> that's a very good question and i'm afraid i don't know the direct answer to that. i do know that they had a couple of rear admirals who were i guess specialized in what they called the inland waters, the river is as opposed to the ocean. there was a particular unit known as the mississippi marine gave and i do tell a little bit of a story about them in my boat. they were kind of a form -- forerunner of amphibious operations in some ways. it was a union unit. it was an army unit even though it doesn't really sound like it and they were designed to be kind of like a quick strike force on the river. so if they were down -- let's say they were at the dash then something was happening at milliken's bend they could hop on a boat go down the river jump

off at milliken's bend and go in and fight. that was kind of what their mission was and what their organization was that it was just one piece of the whole thing. to get to your question i'm afraid i really don't know much about what kind of formal training they had. i suspect -- they didn't have gunboats like they did during the war. it would surprise me a little i think especially because the previous ward was the mexican war but a very good question. a. >> when the new officers were sent out to recruit regiments how many men were any regiment that they need to recruit to get full recognition for having done

so and how many companies were any regiment and then on a broader scale across the war what were differences if there were any enrichment companies between the union and the confederates? >> could question. during the civil war and general they regiment was typically about 1000 men. that would be composed of 10 companies of 100 men. the reality is by this time in the war the confederate forces have -- and that was true on both sides. they were basically using the same manuals and the same type of organization. by this time in the war confederate forces had been in service for a year or year and a half so their strength was probably down to maybe between four and 600 per regiment.

the union forces at milliken's bend was a whole different story. they are not anywhere near that. the iowa troops at milliken's bend for only 120 men. they had sustained very heavy casualties not long before. i don't know off at the top my head that numbers but that black river bridge they probably had 500 men. disease and attrition took their toll. so what was really pretty rare that the regiment on either side was actually -- one of the other things with milliken spend is that many officers on both sides talk about their companies taking 50% casualties at milliken's bend.

so it was small but it took its toll for sure. >> i have two questions. if you could first speak to how did you come across this research topic and then also you earn archivists are wondered if you could talk a little bit about how your knowledge of archives helped inform the research and help to do your research? >> thank you. i got interested in this because of a story of one of the offices that was captured. i don't have a personal connection to anyone who served there. i literally came across one who said cord and heath murdered by the rebels july of 1862 which was wrong but it struck me as odd because i thought its award. what do you mean he has murdered?

i began picking at that and nibbling at it now and then and for a long time i didn't know that i had a story because it would go back and forth. it would seem like there were executions and it would seem like their warrant and it was really hard to figure out what happened. but i did find as i mentioned john bates report and it was pretty convincing. so that is the short version of how i got started. definitely my background as an archivist helped me a great deal in being able to ferret out these resources having that knowledge and background and the way records operate and a way to really navigate the army bureaucracy.

150 years later. it really helped me a lot and of course i had a lot of help along the way from other archivists as well. a lot of support from my friends who are here today. do we still have a little bit of time? >> the title of the book -- >> can you step closer to the microphone? >> the title is "milliken's bend" sub three and it seems like your presentation was mostly the history. i wondered if you could speak about how the battle is remembered now? >> thank you, yes. part of what i began with as i investigated this was that i couldn't find anything about it.

i couldn't find anything about milliken's bend. now and then there might get article here and there but they all kind of said the same same things in a world based on the same sources and they didn't get to the depth of the questions that i had about the fight. it was also one of those things where the more research i did the more questions i had and the more discovered there was a much larger story. milliken's bend ready much disappeared from the history books almost as soon as it happened. it occurred in june 1863. in early july you have the fall of vicksburg so everybody was looking at those events. it literally immediately lost the headlines almost as soon as it occurred. i think to some degree because

they were black troops involved it perhaps did not get the press. in some cases it did get the press but in other places it didn't. on top of that it was a small fight. you have this big siege going on at vicksburg. this was a small skirmish in the broader scheme of the civil war. it kind of disappeared almost immediately. it disappeared literally early in the 1900 seneca washed away so the site itself is no longer there. i do spend quite a bit of time in my book talking about vicksburg national military park and their role in remembering or forgetting the battle. for a very long time for history

that was presented at the park was based on what was called the dumbing school. there is a professor in the early 20th century who had a very paternalistic view of slavery. slavery wasn't that bad. the slaves were provided for in that kind of thing. because that was considered the current scholarship at the time that was the kind of history that was presented at vicksburg. in addition to that enabling registration for the park specified that the interpretation would concentrate on the commemoration of the siege of vicksburg. so it limited it to vicksburg proper. all of the rest of the things that happened for a year and a half before the city fell were not within the scope of the park.

especially since this was across the river. but if in the past 15 to 20 years there has definitely been increased interest in the battle there has been more written about it. i attributed a lot of to the movie laurie. if you are familiar with that that tells the story of the 54th massachusetts air assault at fort wegner. again that was a month after milliken's bend and that's it twice in south carolina. and it's interesting to see the impact that movie had even within the historical profession because you can really see after 1989 when the movie came out there is much more that comes out about black troops during

the civil war. one last thing about vicksburg the park. of course they're interpretation and they no longer subscribe to the dumbing school of thought. they are much more conscientious just because our culture is in general but also because the scope of their park was expanded some years ago so that they could now interpret the entire campaign for vicksburg. i know they have plans to do additional work in interpreting reconstruction period and vicksburg and in fact a couple of the regiment that fought at milliken's bend later spent most of the rest of the work before garrison in vicksburg. what happens to vicksburg after the occupation and into reconstruction is very much their story as well. that is still a good summary.

there is still more to it but that gets to the heart of it i think. seeing mentioned there were african-american that fought at milliken's bend on the confederate side as well or not? >> no, sir. >> the broader question is what role did african-american troops play in the civil war fighting on the confederate side and what were the ways in which they were made to fight? did they want to fight or were there none at all? >> i can't say that there were none of all. in fact yesterday i was talking to a different group about various records are used in my research and i didn't use this for this particular book but the state of tennessee issued what were called slave -- and some confederate states also issued similar types of pensions after the war. these were given to slaves who

had gone off to war with their masters usually as body servants and at least in tennessee the slave had to have served the entire war or -- they didn't call it discharged because they weren't even listed but not serving the rest of the award. there are various stories out there about the black confederates. most of what i have found about that though they are not regular enlisted soldiers. they are servants. you can certainly question how voluntary was it. the south was their home too. one thing i do need to address in louisiana earlier in the war there were units from new orleans composed of freed blacks who were in confederate service

but then they later -- new orleans falls early in the war and they actually end up turning around and going into the union army and they become what are known as the first and third louisiana native guards. they fought at fort hudson which was much further south than milliken spend an don't have a direct relationship to milliken's bend but that was the fight that took place a week to for this. they also fought their but most of what i have read about blacks in the confederate service they were servants more than soldiers until much later. there was an effort much much later and 65 -- the manpower situation was so desperate that they did say maybe we will have to enlist our

slaves. there was one other thing that i was going to say. the interesting thing also is that by september kirby smith who is the general who said i hope you didn't take any prisoners calm cut he is actually beginning to think, maybe we should consider this ourselves. there is the general who was in charge in monroe named paul octave a bear. he may or may not have had anything to do with the executions of the officers but he also is starting to think about this idea of enlisting slaves. so the idea was out there but it didn't really become reality in any kind of concrete sense until way late like april 65, almost

in may. >> for the u.s. troops in milliken's bend are there any words that they received compensation or pensions or anything like that and say follow up to the earlier question is there any sign of marker at the site? >> i will take the second question first. there is your typical historic marker near the site of milliken's bend literally in the middle of nowhere. if you didn't know you were going out to see that marker you wouldn't be able to find it. it's on a dirt road so it's way out in the middle of nowhere. but it is there. there is a small section just off the interstate that runs east and west of vicksburg just over on the louisiana side. there's a small plot of land

known as grants canal and it's part of the vicksburg park even though it's in louisiana and there are some informational plaques at that location that talk about milliken spend. it's probably five for 10 miles from the original site but because it's vicksburg property they didn't put the information in. those are the main primary markers. there's a stationary exhibit in the visitors center that talks about milliken's bend so they have done a lot of work in recent years to get the word out about the fight. the pension question config as the black soldiers were eligible for pension just like any other union soldier. but pensions for the former slaves who were in the u.s. ct's are an incredible fascinating resource because they will give

you all kinds of information. they talk about where they were born on what plantation. many of the folks here in louisiana had come from elsewhere like virginia and north carolina. it will give you almost their entire migration route from this man to this man and then we moved to georgia and so on and so forth. ..