>> especially the cost and the changes in infrastructure associated with us. it will be very low hanging fruit to open the door to a fuel that offers so many economic environmental and strategic benefits. i would just add that and in china, the drive for methanol fuel adoption was actually mostly environmental. there are a few that visited major cities in china. the chinese are increasingly aware of the problem and they would like to see cleaner, blue skies for a change. and we want to adopt cleaner burning fuels and methanol is one of them. i think it is a unique opportunity to bring them together in a considered effort and that is one of our primary conditions in this report on

this international front. >> thank you. just to point out when you said standards, you don't mean standards need standards where people have to use fuel, but rather when it adds up and you know exactly what's going into your car when you buy the product. and what struck me is that the fuel is still economic. especially compared to gasoline. if you look at this graph, this is the price compared to the price of gasoline it is apples to apples comparison and it's such a competitive price compared to gasoline this is really economically driven but i

want to jump over to daryn of the natural resources defense council and put you on the spot. as one of the representatives of the environmental organizations in the room. you hear many voices in the environmental movement that over the years have called for high oil prices. high oil prices are good for the environment and we have high oil prices. are they good for the environment? >> well, no. high oil prices in and of themselves are not good for the environment. that is something that is costly to the u.s. economy and costly to consumers.

and skyhigh costs sometimes the effect it when they meet their daily rounds. it's not what drives the better environmental outcomes. what drives the better environmental outcomes are good policy is. such is fuel economy standards. and there are alternatives for americans to use and this is a good use for the americans in the united states. and it looks like oil consumption may have reached a peak, and as efficiency goes, it is as far as the eye can see where we see efficient roads, and driven vehicles in the other thing is that the eia and other individuals have a tendency to project a set percentage out into infinity.

and it is the same in terms of per capita driving. these two facts are driving our oil consumption down slowly. therefore we are seeing the pollution peak as well. what help and a slayer crucial. what happens now to capitalize on this remarkable fact in the u.s., that is crucial as well because hopefully this will make scaling alternatives up. if we will make it easier. the efficiency and reduce consumption is part of the equation and that is why i am gratified to hear such talk about the competition. because the question is, okay, if we can envision a world where we use less oil, can we ramp up real competition for it. so when you pull up to a gas pump, it is more can to walking down the aisle in the grocery store and looking up multiple products lines of the post right now we have the culture the energy sector.

>> whether it is liquids or gases, for us the question is the nrdc and people that talk about the environmental community. there are so many differences of opinion. in terms of carbon emissions and environmental effects. and there is some pretty exciting alternatives that are made all the more possible. and so with that there is alive. >> if you don't have competition from the biggest players in the room will be able to keep the price is nice and high for them. and i think of this is a

situation in which you have very a severe food allergies. start each day with a cup of coffee and milk in it. if you are allergic to come up and go milk and soy mouth. the only thing you can drink his wry smile. rice milk goats and $50 per gallon and you still can't put cow milk or soymilk or anything else, but you can make do with less and you don't have the option to switch this among the given sources. since we have a situation where our vehicles have warranty only to run on gasoline and it doesn't matter how cheap this is because you can't use them. i think we can call you a captain of industry. and you have an important role

in government. how important is opening the vehicle driven vehicles to fuel competition to encourage a real growth in production capacity for competitive fuels? >> is obviously a point and may only be the only point for a period of time. so i could kind of like to view it through those eyes. with the invention of hydraulic fracturing, it was part of this technological breakthrough and we suddenly have a new opportunity as we have heard this and have less and less energy dependency from foreign sources in this country. the price of energy doesn't drop. and that is kind of mystery. the reason is when you go to the filling station, you have a choice depending on the brand

that you buy, you could basically have regular or supreme. that is your choice. but if you had a real choice with the free enterprise system and that we say, why hasn't worked today. and as i would view it, there are some that really stand out. and this includes the cost of the vehicle to give it a fuel capability. but if you really look into that, the increase of the cost is trivial. and you would say what does this have to do with sharing opinions on the automotive world and i am a rocket scientist. [laughter] >> the second problem, i think

is having the cost to provide the capability it gives you an alternative that will not solve the problem. so you have to build a critical mass. that is really part of the trouser we have is to build this. they really do get into policy issues in the free market will work and i lived there all my life and we just have to give it a chance. >> one rocket scientists read to another, dam, we are putting you on the spot over here. and we are reporting on natural gas and what have you concluded in the best ways to open the transportation fuel market and the most economic ways to deliver natural gas to the transportation?

>> this is part of the introduction and now we are part of the secretary of energy known to all of you and so you can blame him. my interest particularly in this was transportation area. together with other people we analyze various things for how natural gas can play a greater role in transportations and we looked at cng and others. we considered conversion of natural gas and the use of electricity and battery-powered cars and conversion of natural gas into liquid fuels.

and after quite a bit of debate. we debated all her conclusions pretty intensely the conclusion of our group was that offer the greatest promise for widespread impact in the transportation sector. and among the liquid fuels, they have the greatest promise because the production of methanol from natural gas is very well-established. it is established from commercial plans and the conversion cost of allowing a vehicle to operate on natural gas -- as it was mentioned earlier is essentially trivial, a few hundred dollars.

>> it was essentially a trivial for a few hundred dollars. >> not only in this area, but also in the heavy-duty area. and it has been a part of this is an alternative as well. it's a very clean burning fuel and the cost of the vehicle would actually be lower than the cost and it would not look while require an expensive exhaust aftertreatment and this can be particularly important in china. and then let me mention one additional aspect. it was in the area of my

interest including methanol that allow them to enable very large increases in the efficiency of internal combustion engines. this includes intrinsic octane, a cooling effect which has the same effect as high-octane. and the engines operate more efficiently and that is one area of efficiency increase. another area has to do with a fast burn of methanol. a further increases the efficiency. and this is part of the system.

in august of this can increase the pressures of internal engine by 50% or more relative to present for a fuel injected gasoline and this includes the heavy-duty area. eventually methanol could save drivers money because they use less fuel. considerably less. and this includes greenhouse gas emissions from proposals. so long with this, the cost benefits can go over a longer period, it offers the prospect for much larger efficiency vehicles. >> we are talking about a fuel

that is cheaper per gallon and doesn't require any subsidies. and then it has to come out of the diesel program come it's actually cheaper to do this at times to i want to jump over to you, don. i know you wanted to jump into this, but i have another question. if a company bids up the price of its own product, that is actually legal. and yet we see the oil price go down.

so is there anything that we can do about that? >> i was going to bring this up and i'm glad he did. talking about the fact that with respect to all of these commodities, there is a open market. one can see who is in the end of the day holding the amount of the contracts relating to a particular commodity not write off this, but they trade in the physical commodity or a derivative thereof. it is much more so than the period of time that we

originally started with what was in 1973 when there was no market whatsoever. but it is not a transparent market on the exchange or any of the complex of energy problems. but with respect to one so you are talking about and in china they do have trading of futures, which i don't know how well they do or what the extent of it is, but i've noticed that one of the other exchanges are treating these new products. to the extent that the financial community can get involved in promoting some of the competition, i think that that would be because of they can make money on transactions, they also create another entity in the blend that can push forward and that is kind of answering her question, but also i think

another component part to it. >> i would like to just follow up. how do you bring about trading a new commodities -- and what is the process that you need to create enough volume and what needs to happen in order for one commodity to be traded verses another one that is not treated. >> fuel oil is not a commodity per se. but the components of it are traded very actively and almost every single company that is involved in some area where they utilize the fuel oil has hedges on it. it is part of the exchanges and others are from places like morgan stanley or things of that nature and if one wanted to start trading, you have to build and go through something like this, the big companies that know how to build

over-the-counter markets and in concert with the exchanges. i natural gas, methanol, it sounds like it would be pretty -- that it would be step-by-step >> thank you. over to you. joe cannon, the freedom foundation. we have been talking about the new vehicle market in and the secondary vehicle market is very important. most cars on the road are not new. so how important is it to streamline regulation to reduce the cost of existing cars to be platform to fuel competition. >> thank you so much and thank you for having us here. the mission is to create competition at the pump for

cheaper and cleaner american-made fuels. we are agnostic on the fuels itself, but as a happen with the discussion today, it is an important geopolitical fact that natural gas is a huge issue. we cannot have this conversation even for five years ago. so the dramatic diversion of the price of oil and natural gas is an enormous opportunity for our country. and so even though we have this and we talk about this foundation. we can also make ethanol from natural gas. so that's really cheap to convert your car as we have

mentioned, then you have an abundance of supplies of natural gas and of methanol from natural gas today. so what is the issue and the issue is that it has a regulatory regime that many people are critical and there happens to be a system administering these great regulations. in the have a mission, the epa, to prevent tampering and they need to have is to prevent tampering. even with existing regulations there is the ability to go to the epa to run on other fuels. so why doesn't everyone do a? regulations are quite complex. quite cumbersome and they're quite expensive. and they also really weren't designed with this idea of taking natural gas and liquid

fuels into account. our foundation is working assiduously to look at the technical background of those regulations and how it is we can approach the epa and help them come to view that this is better for the environment and the job is part of it and how we work with the epa to make it easier to convert more vehicles in the existing fleet to run on liquid fuels from natural gas. so we are supporting a good deal of research and we're working with them and others at the university, just came from a meeting at carnegie mellon yesterday. we are trying to provide the intellectual infrastructure to go to the epa to really cause them to come to this and understand that this would be a good thing for their mission as well as the rest of the country and this includes resources for

the future of widespread conversion to liquid fuels from natural gas that is economically desirable and regulatory really feasible. the bottom line is that it is a heck of a market, especially for those going into this area in our little bumper sticker is cheaper and cleaner american-made fuels. biggio. >> thank you. over to you, marty. we are heading up the energy and environment group. and i am going to pick on you regarding india because i know that you were in india not too long ago thinking about the energy issues and we have this,

of course, very small and cheap car and a lot of people lifting themselves up so how important is low fuel costs. to the economy of india and where is india going on at comes to thinking about oil. >> it's interesting that we mention that, having a bi- fuel vehicle. it is a cng vehicle with gasoline. low fuels are key in the economy. the amount of money that people spend on fuel to be able to get from your place of residence to a different place of work and what that does to expander or cannot be opportunities is key for all of those folks. up until technology, getting it is easy and it can be very difficult and if you look at some of the advances done a year

ago, especially with flex fuel, the term originally done and they couldn't get competition in the transportation system of the u.s., so they went to brazil and converted into ethanol. in the back are key for having competitions at the fuel pump because with competition, you'll break down the barriers and get more technology into the marketplace as technology gets the marketplace and price comes down and more people can rise up. >> we have been having this party here at the roundtable. but i really want to emphasize the u.s. energy security council is kind of fuel agnostic. we don't have a dog in the race and we don't care which one wins, we are not anti-oil and we don't want to defeat oil, what we want is a competitive market in which no one commodity is important. the analogy that i use and they

use is all this is turning oil into salt and it was once a strategic commodity because it was the only way to preserve food. in some cases they were replacing colonies with the invention of refrigeration, saul became just not important anymore. so nobody really cares or knows how much salt we import over who controls salt reserves are what the salt prices. it is just one among the many different options of what we can put in your tank.

they have like vehicle electrification is one technology and the most fun car that i ever drove, i don't know if we have a tesla representative in the room, the most fun car i have driven was a tesla roadster. all you vehicle fanatics come you really want to get behind the wheel of it. it's an unbelievable driving experience. and we heard from the secretary before about getting the cost down focusing on efforts when it comes to this end and there is tremendous potential when it comes to this. whether car or nuclear power or cooler wind used to generate that electricity. we are not focused on only one technology or.

>> is to backup back up what you are saying, lechter vacation of vehicles have talked about this separately as if they are just alternatives. i have a prius it is converted to be a plug-in and i have a bolt, which has 35 to 40 miles on electricity. once you run out of the electricity for the overnight charge, you're on a liquid fuel and it is cleaner and you can make some pretty dramatic changes today's technology.

the point is you adopt have to choose not have alternative liquid fuel if you have a plug-in hybrid as opposed to aen all electric car. you can end up with hundred of miles of gasoline. the technology is on the road to do this right now.

>> the overview -- let me remind you of -- the demand for oil continues to grow. china is going to import oil, india is going i import oil. the consequence is we are going see a continued price pressure as he observed, we are on the ragged edge of supply and for the immediately foreseeable future, we will don't be there. so with that effect is we are not going break the monopoly of opec. we can constrain opec's pricing

power with these alternatives but do -- they will continue to prosper as long as the international environment continues as it is. >> thank you. i want to jump over to greg dolan. you lead the -- institute which is the trade association of the global methanol industry. talk to us a little bit about the growth in methanol production capacity around the world over recent years, and really what we can expect going forward. >> sure. i would be happy to. thank you. >> i guess i would start off looking at china. grow go back about ten years,

china has less than a billion gallons of methanol production capacity. today they have 15eb9 -- 15 million gallons. they have grown that much in a decade. as you mentioned, much of the new production -- using coal and china's made the decision that natural gas base coal is a strategic transportation fuel. >> methanol based coal. >> methanol. methanol -- >> coal-based methanol. we'll get it right. third try. >> i think if you look at what is happening here in the u.s., if you go back just to 1997, the u.s. had 30% of the world's production capacity for methanol. we had 20 methanol plants. when natural gas priced at $2 or $3 you could make methanol all

day and gate considerable profit. after that we saw the price of natural gas steadily rise up 5, 7, 9, $10. a lot of plants closed down. some were cut up and shipped to china and operating in china on coal. we have seen it reversed. because of the shale gas ref luges we're see a resurgence of the domestic methanol industry in the u.s. we had just a couple of years ago we were down to only two methanol plants about 250 million gallon of production capacity. if you fast forward within the next five to six years, we're anticipating to be about 5 billion gallon of methanol production capacity in the u.s. last year oci opened a plant in texas. in a couple of weeks they will open a plant n channel view, texas. one of the member companies is

lorelly cutting up and shifting two major plants from chile to louisiana to take advantage of the low cost gas and i think the discovery channel is doing -- moving the production. so we could be in just a couple of years at a point where the u.s. becomes, again, one of the largest methanol producers in the world. and potentially a large methanol exporter. within the next five to seven years we could have as much as 3 billion gallon of methanol looking for are market. we could put it on a ship and send it to china or asia. we could use it here domestically as a transportation fuel. >> thank you. before i jump to you, john, i want to high late country of the key domestic policy recommendation. for many years we've been talking about the need to open the vehicle to fuel competition. the approach really has been we're fortune to have andrew here from congressman even gal's

office. he has been one of the leaders of bipartisan efforts to open vehicle of fiewlt competition. via the open fuel standard. focus has been for years,let just ask auto companies, team auto companies just as new scars need to have seat belt. you need to open your cars to some sort of fuel competition. we don't care what. vehicle electrification. compressed natural gas, flex fuel, methanol, choose whatever it is you want. open the car to fuel competition. this approach has faced some april difficulties. it's an understatement. despite the fact that as jim pointed out freed rick hayek himself talked about the dairnlgt of monopoly and cartel,

many people do not understand the need -- sometimes for a little bit of government action to breakthrough and open a market to competition. all right. well, bashing your head against the wall repeatedly gets to be a little bit tiring. in this report, there's a very different approach. and one of our key recommendations is via the existing fuel economy system, automakers have to meet very, very tough fuel economy standards. this is not easy. it's existing law and it's to be quite expensive to meet the standards. i know, the environmental movement said peace on earth and good will toward men will result from this. the fact it's going raise the price for seek -- vehicles and tough for automakers to do. one of the approaches we suggest is if you make at least half of the cars in your fleet some sort

of fuel competitive vehicle. lek fied vehicle. a flex fuel it has to be gasoline. nobody thought of yet but allow fuel competition. if you make at least half of them competitive, then the government should make it a little bit easier for you to meet the existing fuel economy requirements not by sending you subsidizes or anything like that. by saying we're going to give you a number miles per gallon credit toward the fuel economy number. not per vehicle. the existing credits today on the books for making different vehicles that nonpetroleum fuel but you get them per car. rather, if you meet the bulk ratio, because if you meet the bulk ratio, what it means you are moving the u m market enough to get the fuel station's

attention. if you're a fuel station and one or two can use a particular fuel. you don't have a business case to put in the pump to serve the fuel. if the fuel station owner and have ten pump and 15% of the cars in your area can use the fuel. all of a sudden you have a business case for putting in a pump to serve the fuel especially if the fuel is cheaper and your markup is larger. that's one of the key recommendation. there other rights to streamline regulatory when it comes to the fuel side and the vehicle side. i want to jump to john again. >> i would like to make a point that i'm actually putting up in a parking space because i think without recognizing it in a discussion like this, we could potentially end up being extremely frustrated. there's enough intelligence and experience around the table to

truly transform the american and the global fuels marketplace. and i -- as from the person from the forces of market, as i understand how powerful they are. but i also as a practitioner of the industry know there is no such thing as a free market for energy. essentially anywhere in the world. absolutely every aspect of bringing energy from the ground to the consumer is controlled, permitted, or licensed by some agency of the government one way or another. it i've never met an american that didn't love democracy. i also know a lot of frustrated americans in the way in which democracy operates. as secretary said briefsly, we've had eight presidents who have embarked upon energy independence. i don't think any of them were

incompetent people. here we are 40 years on, and we're where we're. i've met hundreds and hundred of members of congress and senators over the years. i can only probably count on one hand people i thought were not competent. at least in the conversation that i was having. they are competent people who come serve. i've met hundred of appointed official over the years, i cannot count on any finger any incompetent appointed official i've ever met. with the competence in the face of the government that controls every aspect of energy from the molecule in the ground to the molecule in the gas tank, why are we where we are? i put in a parking place. it's not conference to discuss it fully. i don't think we could -- leave here without realizing that democracy is problematic system when it comes to energy.

the way we have established a current govern mans. the current govern innocence including 13 cabinet agencies in the executive branch plus the white house. 26 congressional committees and subcommittees. 800 plus federal judges, 50 states, 50 state legislature, then you get to the thousand of municipalities and counties across the country. pretty fragmented system. so where am i going with this? the same this issues exist around energy that exist around money and the supply of money. but yet we have in our democratic wisdom figured out a mechanism that enables the monetary system to work. within the same governor of this sloppy federal democracy.

because we have, in the past, experienced monetary cry cease where the system wasn't working, we came up with a solution. and that solution is now 100 years old this year. 1913 federal reserve act created an institution, a heck ni. that works to manage money. i think until we give some serious thought and action to modify in the model we use for energy from the dysfunctional and fragmented energy system that we have today to a more simplified, stream lined, independent authority when it comes to energy. we will not crack this problem. opec is a powerful institution. it operates under very different rules than the u.s. government. because it has no rule. it's just agreements.

the eight presidents, 20 congresses, many, many states having tried this effort they have none of them succeeded. and i don't think we can afford the lack of success in the face of future fuels competition for the basic fuel that we use today. we're all going lose. i think somewhere down the line we have to turn our attention not just to the practical solutions to the competitive products, which i agree with, and work everyday to promote. i think we have deal with a larger issue which is as long as we pretended energy is marketplace, when it's not, in the first instance, because it's all governed. then we have to have a institution that enables that market ultimately to work in an organized manner the same as we

have a monetary system that works in the very same system in which we also consume energy. so i'll leave it there. >> thank you. did you want to just -- >> just -- i agree with the complexity you prevent the government. sometimes you need an outside force to coalesce the government to dot right thing. what you see on the slide is the energy equivalent of the chinese version of the sputnik. because sometimes you need a nudge from the outside, and this is happening. t real. and it's spreading. and as you know, no auto maker in the world will be to be give up on the chinese market. then the question is, can we afford in a nation to see our chinese friend enjoying competition when we are denied

similar prerogative? i think, at that point, people will ask the government why the people in china and brazil can have the kind of choice and we are not. so sometimes you need a little push from the outside. >> -- [inaudible] as somebody in the production of methanol for the last 40 years i would be inclined to wave the white flag. but we don't have those. i would like to propose something outside the government that we can do. a partnership between ethanol and methanol. >> thank you, bill. over to you, frank.

>> before we parted, i just i would like to see if we can get some ground truth established on a couple of things i keep being told about methanol as a clear attractive option here. i'm told it's cro rosive so it can't be used in internal imussive engine. i've been told it's toxic. it comes down basically warranties. that really the technology i've heard jim talking about o ring that since 2007 we've been manufacturing cars at least in this country, that have had as a potential at least the sale in brazil. they're not marketed here as flex fuel vehicles, but they're marketed there as flex fuel vehicle.

therefore, they could be, in fact, if not methanol compatible. ethanol compatible. what is the difference? what needs to be done to make them both. could somebody, before we impart rocket scientist or others get to the ground truth here as to how hard is it whether it's retrofitting auto pre2007 which as i understand is a bigger deal or just the ones made since 2007. especially the ones going forward, which as you've sort of implied would be manufactured for a chinese market as well as an american market. and persisting in the pretends they can't be everything they are in these foreign markets. >> there a had heck of lot of people who i know want to jump in. greg you're in the seat. >> i'll try some of them. we talk about china. if you look at china, a lot of

provinces are using m15. and the cars that are using those are the existing fleet of the vehicles. no changes to the cars. now, if you look at the chinese auto fleet, about two-thirds of the cars that are sold in china are built by the international. it's the ford, audi, volvo, those cars are largely compatible with m15 they are using it in china. on the m85 flex fuel -- >> with the existing warranty. >> so the companies that manufacture these cars are warranting them to work in china with 15% methanol. they are honoring the warranties. in a flex fuel vehicle side. if you go back to california we've had 10 years of experience 25000 million miles. we didn't have the technical

problems. know how to build them. we're doing races right now on gem fuels, gasoline, methanol, ethanol in rally cars. we have done research with volvo demonstrating these turn area blends of gasoline, methanol, ethanol, and flex fuel vehicles. they work. methanol is more slightly more cro row sieve. t a simple fix. methanol is toxic. you can't make it untoxic. when we talk about blends say m ail adding the 15% gasoline in the mix makes the blend unpalatable. you can't drink it because the methanol. in california 200,000 miles experience with methanol in china not a single case of methanol poisoning. it's a nonissue.

t readily bio degradable. it's more environmentally benign than gasoline. it doesn't have the car sen begins. there a lot of benefit using methanol. environmental, energy, we know how to do it. before we jump to you, isn't there anything you would like to add reflecting on the conversation today? >> >> it's impressive to hear everybody talking about not only om gas but also ore form of energy including methanol. in the -- actually china actually we utilize a lot of -- to make ethanol. we realize that for people's consumption. therefore we give up the idea of

manufacturing ethanol from corn and we manufactured methanol from coal. because we have a lot of coal. and i think thag a good form of energy and very reliable form of energy. and we -- i think but meanwhile we still rely on some other form of energy including nuclear and also also hydropower. before this seminar, i didn't expect people would be so interested in discussing this topic. and i thought everybody would be interested in china import of -- but actually that's not the

whole case. thank you. >> thank you. our goal is to look forward and look toward competitive transportation fuel market for all countries. >> thank you very much. thank you to each of you who contributed today in this discussion. as kind of the old guy at the table, i look back on -- let me -- [inaudible] [laughter] on that day 40 years ago ago, we were facing the embargo. the secretary, at the time of defense, was attending meetings around the clock, and having to worry seriously about the impact

of quad rippling of the price of oil. well, the 40 years sin then, if you're a cynic, you could say it's been a golden age of hand ringing. where we have tried again and again and failed. and so today people that have come hoping for solutions may ask, well, what is new? why hasn't it been done? what gives you hope it can be? and that live will change? and i think what you've heard today tells you that our approach is relying importantly on two factors. that is to bring the american

people and their values in to this policy process. i mean, by that what is everybody want to have? a better value at the pump, cheaper fuel. secondly, what is a bedrock american value that every american can give you 99% positive ratings. it's competition. so thinking about those two kind of drivers we believe are common to all americans we're saying is it feasible to dplifer a cheaper way to power transportation? do we have the resource, the science, the engineering at hand? that is a new thing. because we do.

we can, today, because of advances in electricity and powering cars, and this windfall enormous blessing of shale gas, which can be used as a vehicle of fuel, bring new things to market. that are cheaper. cleaner, better for you, competitive. well, you may say, how you going get that done? the an is when you go to people you need start spending investment to produce more of these alternatives, they say we are ready. we're not going to do it until there are a lot of vehicles that can burn it on the road.

so at that point, john's point is absolutely right. we do have to engage government in the regulatory framework that can enable creating lots of cars that can use these things. that's what joe and the fuel freedom foundation is focused upon. set free american inagree knewty, and the mom and pop store, for that matter, to convert your existing cars and the 25000 million on them to be able to burn the alternatives. at that point, you induce the investors to say, great. if we really are going convert all the old cars, and start make new ones, that can burn anything, well, gasoline,

methanol, or ethanol, and we encourage people that are at the cutting edge of electric for powering cars then suddenly so you a competitive marketplace. yes, secretary less german philosophy is right about this. we have oil forever. we'll need it. let get to a marketplace with electricity, with methanol, with ethanol let 250 million automobiles now capable of trying it all. do it. the only other point i think been underplayed today is it's healthier. it's interesting that automobile industry has been very imaginative and the fuel industry too to try to figure

out how can you get a higher of course contain fuel? for a long time we used led and found out it's bad for you. we took that out and began to put in car sin againic things. we didn't tell you that, but when you put in tbe and to replace led so we have the means at hand to do this.

if we can get the american people to express their values that are age old. we like competition. we like a cheaper product, if it's healthier, that's ice on the cake. well, the bottom line is, what this report is the first report i have ever seen to do it. you can do it without a dime of taxpayer money. right now, on the evening news this very day, we're finding out we're just not going very many thing in the years ahead that costs more government subsidizes or taxpayer money. we're asking you to become disciple and spread the gospel.

we're going to coour best to do the same thing. let me turn it back to you and thank everybody for coming. >> thank you, bud. [applause] >> this is a special message to the viewers at home on c-span. you heard what bud said. we need you. we need do you demand of your elected officials they stop talking about increasing our energy security by reducing oil imports. they start talking about turning oil in to salt. making it to another commodity by opening the market too fuel competition. it's the american way. competition is the american way. ought we can do this. without you it's another of very many issue throughout. no politician will pay attention. you can go to our westbound, and find this report. and take the time to read it.

thank you, everybody. [applause] [inaudible conversations] coming up on c c-span2. the debate between the cabinets for new jersey governors.

it was built to contest control of the lake with the british and the rest of the squadron. it incorporates timber from the original. they are not structure or low bearing. they are embedded in the frame. they are symbolic of the original ship. what is original about the ship the way it sail sails. the workings of the work the crew has do is very much what they had do in 1813. >> we teach history and appreciation. the war of 18912 and the maritime history of the great lakes. but really most of the learning

taking place on board is about functioning and the ship's company. it's the seaman's ship they're learning, i think of real value now. the place where we can continue certain traditions and certain attitudes and ability for centuries. we per perpetuate them and keep them going.

the campaign to fix the debt is holding a news conference wednesday to push for a long-term agreement to address the national debt. you can see it live starting at 2 p.m. eastern on our companion networking, c-span 3. among the things she collected were the chinese -- they tend focus on the -- they developed what was probably

the best collection in the united states of china porcelains. here are pieces of british pewter. through the travels it seemed to be one of her things to collect. we have a number here of variety and nationallalty and shape and sizes. watch our program on our website c-span.org/first lady. or see it saturday on c-span on 7:00 p.m. eastern. we continue the series live month as we look at first lady eleanor roosevelt. new jersey governor and his democratic challenger had their last debate tuesday night at. voters got poll on november

5th. or coverage is courtesy of njtv. it's 90 minutes. [inaudible conversations] >> have a good evening to you. we welcome here to the second and final gubernatorial debate. it's sanctioned by the new jersey election law enforcement commission. i'm mike. we thank you for being with us on tv. here in the hall as well i'm moderating the debate. first of all, let's go over the ground rules. the questions from me and our panelists. i'll introduce them in a question. the questions are known only to me and the panelists. neither the candidates nor the election commission have seen the questions. the candidates have one minute to respond. my discretion i'll offer 30 second for rebuttal and followup. both of the candidates agreed to forego the opening statements the interest of answering more questions that matter to you. we'll hear closing statements as we wrap up. the audience here has agreed to no applause, no booing, no

hissing, or cheering. we are going let the rule slide once at the beginning as we introduce our candidate for the evening. [cheering and applause] before we start the questioning, let me introduce the panel. michael aaron, brigitte harrisson. -- who covers trenton for the phil

fill inquirer. and ron allen. weapon welcome all of you. and we are prepared to start. governor, let me start with you. you have gotten a strong reputation nationally as a problem solver, as a consensus builder, as a bipartisan. you have referred to a number of your democratic opponents in the legislature by some pretty strong terms. you called the someone a jerk. senator smith a joke. you said you asked report for they could take a bat out to senator wine berg. you called one reporter an idiot, which sometimes is justified, i guess. you also called some of them numb nuts. my question to you, sir, is this. do you regret the language you used against some of your opponent.

would a second term be any different from the first in term of rhetoric. >> no, mike. it won't. the fact is that when folks act in a certain matter. they know i'm going call them out. the important thing for the people of new jersey to know habit prevented us from doing which you talked about a-- to be able to make sure we got it done for the people of new jersey. things like $120 billion in pension benefit reform. and i'm not going mince words about it. i think that's the way most people in new jersey i know are. at least my growing up in the state for 51 years. they will see nothing different

from chris christie. >> if that wasn't bad enough. i think the governor, at the last debate within he dissented l name calling and bullying say it was an example of strong leadership. he said it was an example of street stalk. i disagree. i think it's an example of disrespect for people's opinions when they happen to disagree with him. whether -- ic that undermines coming together and strong bipartisanship and being able to breach the gap. i don't think that's strong leadership. >> senator, next question to you. it's been a perception you've had trouble mobile lidsing the troop mind you. a lack of financial donations coming in from the democratic national convention. you've had 50 elected officials in the state, democratic elected officials endorse the governor. not say they're going sit it out. but 50 elected democratic officials endorse the governor.

can you tell some of the people out there who may wonder if you can't lead your own party, how old you lead the state? >> how long do i have? >> you have a minute. [laughter] governor christie represents the worst combination of bully and bossism. that motivated some of the elect the democrats to support him. witness the closure, the un explained closure going over the dw bridge. we have no idea why it closed. there's an investigation. and lo and behold the mayor is a democrat and he has not endorsed the governor. this governor accepted endorsement -- he embraced a political boss of you can have the endorse. somebody who use the campaign funds to take supporters to puerto rico to go to the super bowl. you're not interesting in cleaning up that "boardwalk empire" of new jersey. the back room politics.

you're interested in getting their endorsement, getting the backing of the political machine, and looking the other way. that's a kind of back rooment politics i'm running against to end. >> governor? >> well, listen,let be direct. i'm proud to have his endorsement. you wish he did. >> that's not true. >> secondly, secondly. you have -- i think a significant amount of nerve, senator, after you stood up on the floor of the state senate and said joe was going bring honor and integrity and now i had -- he sits in jail for selling jobs and promotions. a political ally of yours, a friends of yours you stood up for and supported. so, you know, you want to start throwing stones tonight, you better get out of your glass house. >> time. >> our next question. >> excuse me, excuse me -- that -- excuse me. if you want to -- we're not going tolerate that. we're not going to tolerate this

evening. the candidates will get their respect and the candidates will be allowed to speak. if you cannot control yourself, you'll be asked to leave. all right. our next question come from -- and we will thandle appropriately. thank you for most the audience for obeying this. next come from ron allen from nbc news. [inaudible conversations] >> all right. i would appreciate if you may have the opportunity to speak. you don't have the opportunity to speak on our time. ic both candidates of the worthy are respect. i think you are violating that right now. and -- [inaudible conversations] >> madam, yep. let me -- let me try to go forward, if i could. take a breath here and allow that to pass by to the ether where it belongs. ron allen from nbc news. as we sit here tonight the federal government is shut down. the united states is about to

possibly default for the first time in the history. you have described all of this as quote, a failure of everyone who is responsible for the system. you've also endorsed and support steve lon began in -- tomorrow state rate. he said congressional republicans should, hold the line. keep the government shut down and not raise the debt ceiling. do you support him in the senate where one vote can name a difference. you were in d.c. last week yourself. what did you say to colleagues about how they should handle the situation? >> they should get the government reopen. and run it and not close it down. and i stand by the position i have taken along. both sides are responsible for this. both sides are playing games and brinksmanship with the future of the american people and the running of our government. it's the wrong thing to do, ron. i endorsed steve --

that's part of the strength of any prelim party. people don't have to agree on everything. i don't agree with steve on the position on that. i believe he's the best person for the job. i'm voting for him tomorrow. what are we doing in washington, d.c., with the type of partnership they have there? it's reminiscent of what happened in trenton. when they closed down the government in 2006 because they couldn't agree on how much to raise taxes on the people of new jersey. it hasn't in my four years of governor even with divide government because we brought people together. >> governor, in 2011 you said that the democrats were going to raise taxes you could shut down. that was your quote. and you said you were going order a pizza. have a peer, and -- beer and watch the mets. not the yankees. the mets. yes, sir. you said it shouldn't not be playing game.

were you serious or playing games? >> that is called negotiating. so you to let people know where you're going draw the line in the sand and sphee they'll do it too. the proof is in the pudding. in four years we had balance budgets. ..

and. >> in order to run the government go away that is efficient for the people of new jersey. people talk about bipartisanship but they don't know how to do it but i have showed how to do it to work with democrats and republicans to get things done. the proof is that those democratic officials have openly endorsed me because we could run the government in the way that makes them proud. i imphal. >> the governor is part of the problem they are living in fear he would be elected i would not serve their narrow interests. i will be answered to one entity and that is all of you.

i am tough a and i got to this position without having anybody he handed to me and i of here for the working class and i am not here to serve the narrow political interested bossy and i think this death is part of the problem -- governor is part of the problems. >> the governors' association requires fund-raising around the country you will be traveling in the country if you expect if he wins the presidency he would have to reside with every he leaves the state his attended governor hostile takeover but 71 percent duty but have been a pate and barred noah enough about her. she has not had a full newspaper profile or a news conference since labor day.

the governor has kept her out of the public eye a kind of duties will your ready may have the issue available to the media? >> absolutely a digital part of my a candidate she is a talented% -- person have to comment on the probability of the governor running for president. he said last time i can walk into god at the same time. but part of new jersey is walking or chewing gum? you are trivializing, like to know if you could balance the budget and not doing of the backs of the working poor. of lights know if you could reform education and not vilify teachers that this governor is running and we

ought to return the favor november 5th. >> i am proud of the lieutenant governor in she has done an extraordinary job and she appears all the time it if you guys would show what is mind standing you never show what. shoes of the most available and accessible to them publicly successful political figures we have in this state. anyone in the business community will tell you that she has been the leader to make sure the business community does well by improper and she will do a great job over the next four years as attended governor. >> new jersey will decide soon about minimum-wage.

you would be convinced there will not hurt business would you support the minimum-wage? >> you quoted me accurately i am for the increase of the of minimum-wage $1 over three years not connected of the legislature tries to put that on the ballot item opposed to people getting automatic raises every year it regardless of the business or regardless of performance. note those would be saddled every year with increased salaries. that is wrong and bad for business don't just take my word the national federation of independent businesses said this will cost 31,000 jobs in new jersey. i will add to coprolites to do it over three years so

they could responsibly plan and also those who are working every day got an increase. that is my position and it continues to be. i am for it as long as it is responsible overtime. >> he said he was consistent and he is he is consistently on this side of the of wealthy and has turned his back on the working poor and middle-class how could he seriously debate to change the minimum-wage at $1.251 of the highest cost of living states? people cannot make it in this day there aren't food stamps and public housing and many people have to jobs wouldn't that be nice not to have two jobs to support your family in new jersey? >> senator buono you criticize the governor for cutting $1 billion out of education when he first came into office. that was in the midst of the

whole financial milken and he had us shortfall of $2 million what would you have cut instead? >> i would have reinstated the tax on the milk -- the millionaires but it is funny that you should mention that the katchis he talks about what a tough budget he was faced with but governor you a and 49 other states were forced with the recession bottomed you chose it a fact he made state history he cut property taxes ever in the middle of a recession and he cut school and did that have millionaires pay 1 penny more that is not the type of governor. >> the billionaires' tax is estimated to bring $685 million. may be little more that would not plug the

$2 billion holds you'd have to cut something. >> as a budget chair weaver in the middle of the global meltdown so to discuss that in retrospect is difficult but when i was in the middle of the global milk down revenues were falling we could figure it out to prioritize and cut $4.5 billion and education is the last place i would cut. >> senator buono did prioritize and she would spend and spend and spend then leave us to fix our problem. my view is simple. with york governor you have to make tough decisions and be able to defend them in retrospect. i am comfortable with the decisions that i made by governor cory sighed and also. >> host: to leave unsaid in the aftermath that we've realized in december i address surprised at that. it was your job as the

budget chairman to fix that problem and you didn't. >> to as the challenger here? >> i want to ask about jobs governor christie, the number one concern is will i find a job and support my family? cater you name one or two initiatives in the short term for the state's unemployment rate like a new work it is 14% named to specific things you would to the your opponent would not do to help create jobs in the short term. >> what i would do the first thing is i would make sure we have our taxes and more reasonable shape. still one of the highest taxed states in america i

have been trying to get those through one of the few times we were not successful to get a bipartisan reform. we need to make new jersey more affordable with income-tax in particular. second combination of deprecatory environment continues to get better. the lieutenant governor and i do this all the time what they say is the issues are a huge problem in the regulatory environment is so onerous, a better now brazil too difficult to try to create jobs and. remember the year before you lost two of the 50,000 but we created would have to 43,000. the best year since the year 2000 in new jersey's a we making progress. >> we have 400,000 out of

work for years ago you criticize your opponent because he had the highest unemployment in the region and for every single year you have been in office, though we have had the highest unemployment in the region. oboists strayed of job creation. new jersey has only restored half of the jobs overnight new york who had a net increase so with this governor should do is 55 percent of our business in new jersey. he is a one trick pony that landed us in the bottom of the apparel it is 2.1 billion dollars of tax credits. >> i would like to follow up. the year the criticisms of the governor about what

would you do to create jobs to get those people jobs? what can you say tonight that would give people hope something is. >> the key for the the finish my answer. 75 percenters small-business is if he has left them behind those tax credits eric given the has no oversight or accountability. that is what is at the bottom of the barrel and so i would refocus those tax credits to the small businesses that are crying out for help they need the resources to locate and they need that access to capital. there is something at the federal level that deals with the national level with putting tax credits into economically distressed

areas with the major impact to create jobs in our cities >> governor would like to say something? >> no. [laughter] here we go again ladies and gentlemen, we have a choice. you can talk all night long but i guarantee i will talk over you. there is a way to get your message across in this is not the time or the place. bridget. >> senator buono consistently property taxes are among the most important policy issues for new jersey residents but each of your 10 years in office it shows property taxes have increased. governor christie 30% and senator buono 7.5% during your tenure as the budget committee given the lack of

success he should you have had to address this complicated issue will you do differently over the next four years? >> first of all, i disagree with the premise of the question of the ted years before i became governor it went up 70 percent that was the actual number. in the last two years the first full two years they went up 1.seven and 1.4% we took a train going when he did miles per hour now slowed down at 20 miles per hour. we need to do a few other things like civil service reform if that is done mayors across the state can consolidate services and share it a way that is economically effective to bring the numbers down as well. second is to make sure

consolidation of municipalities but we saddle with hundreds of thousands of dollars if we could bring that with zero that has been rejected that will help to bring property taxes down as well. >> the governor promise he but not cut property tax rebates with that is the first thing he did and it was a large cut during a global meltdown. the numbers speak for themselves their rose 20% on average jersey city, 30 percent, toms river 37%. there is of fundamental difference is that i believe millionaire's should pay their fair share and fund middle-class property tax relief and he does not he vetoed. i would not. school funding the work very

hard to get that passed it is a major driver property-tax is this was the best opportunity to direct state spending to where the child's need to work and begin to relieve the pressure of property taxes of the crocheting homeowners. of this governor dismantled at. >> you recently spent a lot of time in camden and appointed forest with the county police department. sitting in the country it has ben epitomized down the road from city hall. you campaign their 2009 highlighting it as a failure of the judge and -- governor

jon corzine policies suggested is across the street and by all estimates as large as ever. why is that? what policies will help the truly destitute like that tend 71 dash city of camden. >> host: i am proud of those who brought to camden south jersey people have always felt politicians always ignored in the things that happens to south and now they know they have a governor who has new economic opportunities for them to grow and attract more businesses. we have taken over the school system that had 23 at 25 of the worst we took them over with the new dynamics

superintendent working cooperatively with the school board in the mayor. we also made a big investment in the cancer center and we are doing all those things but those that are the most needy we expanded the of medicaid program unlike others that will make it more available and when those opportunities start to come they can get the jobs as well. >> the people in tent city are like you and me living from paycheck to paycheck. when i went to see that my heart went out and i said i will be back but this governor has the war did affordable housing and has delayed and blocked it and it is just another example of him not being focused but is focused on the needs of

the wealthy. he not only failed to for our remedy but the. >> valley have freakish that point to. >> editor christie private insurance companies have made it much more difficult and painful for those who have bad hurt by had -- but there is a lot of private insurance companies victimized seeing hurricane at c and d and to with this the last debate 95 percent are closed but people were denied and those that were appealing for those that did not know and expected the settlement.

others have taken in those insurance companies they demanded more accountability, transparency and have taken those companies to court. you have done neither. you have no problem to be tough and teachers in public employees but not on insurance companies to stand up for the victims of hurricane sandy? >> the reason is it is successful. i am not going to have a fight with every person that senator buono wants me to have a fight with. 95% of the claims with private insurance companies for the victims has been adjusted and settled. that is announced today record compared to a new york and connecticut the reason why they have their problems they have the insurance commissioner that we have here that could saddam with the insurance

companies through negotiation of were rates are much better than settlement rates of new york or connecticut it so if you make a comparison know what you compare it to although the governor cuomo took that approach they have not had the success that we have had. we will continue to fight hard but the real problem is the national flood insurance plan of the obama the administration they will not even said it themselves to mandatory arbitration. >> there you go again pointing the finger at the administration. >> we have control over those insurance companies and we should take them to task. >> senator buono we look to your education plan calling for $3 billion a bit educational funding he said he would pay for increased property tax rebates in the millionaires' tax so how

will you find the other 2.3 billion dollars? will you raise the sales tax again like you did in 2006? >> it will be based just like the reform act i fought hard to pass. phased in over 10 years with fiscal constraints. but my budget will be focused on making public education a priority and you cannot pay for it all of it entirely on the first year i am surprised this is a real question reno said the plan is a vision for four years and is implemented with constraints but the focus of my budget is the middle-class and working for i will not balance it on their backs and i will not finance my political campaign you use $24 million to schedule a special election tomorrow on a

wednesday just to benefit yourself you said you did not know how much it would cost the and you did not care. there you have it. >> we will take a detour now we will have the viewers send in questions. this is one from jim and regina at governor part of the department's homeland security response to natural disaster did their response satisfy you considering how long they had access to heat or water? >> i am proud of the cooperative relationship with deal bombing administration he was here two days after the storm and sat with me in a conference room in south jersey with the director and said any phone call he makes should be returned to 50 minutes.

they have kept every word and every promise that they made. there is 355,000 homes severely damaged or destroyed and 7 million without power but we were mobilized 17,000 utility workers with the department of romance security from other states and had power restored 7 billion out of 8.80 and red cross and salvation army coordinating to feed people and have stations to a charge the cellphone to get their lives back to normal part we will not hear be criticized the obama administration with response to hurricane sandy work as partners and i am proud of that. >> was not directly involved obviously we've were as best we could but the governor did a great job in the aftermath of just wish we could see that governor

again. we had three hearings with the victims came to testify and my staff told me that zero of the of funding from a thick department of community affairs, the $0 has been distributed to people who were displaced. i did not believe it but it is true. >> senator buono if we are hit with another hurricane why is it better to have you in charge? >> i will not move the of railcars into the swamp where we have dimmed a giant we will have a contract in place for the cleanup for the aftermath. that was not the case so we were forced to except the no bid contract this has been in the press saying called a few days before and said i have a client with a no bid

contract at of connecticut's attwood you hire them? unfortunately it is an enormous amount of money that would be a discernible difference but we the to have a governor that believes climate changes not esoteric. it help to contribute to hurricane sandy we know the ocean levels are rising and this a governor pulled out of the regional greenhouse gas initiative to help prevent another hurricane. >> to i will take a guess you want to crack at this one. [laughter] >> let's be clear. the cleanup cost after c and d are 50% of the cost to the states of new york so i don't know where the senator gets heard numbers.

seconds, as i traveled around the stage over the last 11 months people our proud of what we did with our response and i think that they know that if another storm god forbid this administration would be ready. >> following up, the change. your position if human activity plays zero rule has evolved over the years. 22 and you were skeptical 2011 you said it is real. human activity does play a role. it before during cnbc did not want to answer the question they were busy but do you believe that climate change is real and human activity plays several? >> i said that in 2011 but the question you are

referring to is did climate change create sandy? i said to have time to study that i am trying to help millions of people recover. but there is a lot of diverges opinion on this issue but my position is climate change is real and human activity plays a role. >> what about those in your party that the science is not settled? >> it is not my job to respond to every difference on every issue that i have with members of my party or the opposite party. my job is to be the governor of new jersey. i do my job to the issues they affect my stay we hear the second highest in the country because what this administration has continued rory enhanced looking for ways to low for the carbon footprint those that are

natural gas-fired. our goals 2020 of the missions already met stiff neck actions speak clatter than words he pulled out of the path of northeastern states designed to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to create real jobs no wonder we have 400,000 people a lot of work which it is driven by his political ambitions. this is like the capt. trades though they made a political decision and unfortunately the people of new jersey suffered. was a prime sponsor as the with the global warming response that that this governor walked away from the he has ignored the policies. >> also on hurricane sandy

although investigators could not conclude the fire was related to the damage to the governors choosing sandy funds to rebuild even if they were not affected. do you think that was the inappropriate use of money? >> if you word down to the shore the listening to people they were just dropped by the equity and the speed of which the money went to rebuild the boardwalk that is great but people need to rebuild their lives. people living in trailers still of is just that union beach and there was actually a good samaritan who donated his equipment and time to demolish her house because she still did not have an answer and $0 were given

out. obviously the governor's bill from the new york attorney's office don't translate well into writing a staple all to the detriment of those letters of a victimized. >> just to clarify you would not have given many or redirected elsewhere? >> i would not supplant my judgment i don't have access to the facts but the inequity is striking in terms of the timing and the priority has to be getting people back into their homes >> i will guarantee senator buono will not be supplanting my judgment now or after the fifth. that was inappropriate use of that many. also all the programs have given out $8 billion in new jersey to help see in the victim was. with the program we're now finishing a the federally

required environmental reviews before building can begin the user all important details for the public to know and also senator buono to know also. >> movie dawn to an issue one of the prime issues recently is marriage equality are same-sex marriage now headed to the supreme court. a judge has ruled as of october 21st the state is obligated to issue a marriage licenses to same-sex couples. the administration has appealed the supreme court has agreed to listen you also want them to issue a stay until the jay jury hearing. personally would you be disappointed if the supreme court were to rule in favor of the lower court and same-sex marriage became legal in this day by virtue of the supreme court ruling?

>> my position has been clear from the beginning. i believe of marriages between one man and one woman. that was my position in 2009 and i believe if we change the fundamental nature of the 2,000 year-old institution it should be done by one entity only which is the voters of this state of new jersey not the supreme court were 121 politicians but the people by referendum. if the people of new jersey are given the opportunity to go and did if go out in favor to amend our constitution then i would uphold that and support those laws with the same vigor i support the constitution as governor now. >> but he is consistently aligning his views with his social cues such as sarah palin or the iowa republican caucuses but not with new

jerseyians. it is a human-rights issue and equates it with taxes and guns. it is a human issue of friend of mine david richard have had a committed relationship over the last 10 years i hope and pray this governor either withdraws his appeal or loses it to you can get married on october 21st. i will be there. >> governor christie one of the faces of the campaign has been senator buono daughter who is gay and has fought for a very g quality of the state of new jersey. if they came to you as a kid and said i am gay and want to marry the love of my life what would you say? >> if my children came to me and said they were gay i would hug them and tell them

i love them just with like any children they felt was important he enough. but also dad believes is marriages between one man and one woman in that is my position. there may be differences of opinion in our house all across the state of the country a and in fact, at the end of the day the people of new jersey were given the opportunity to vote i would support that but until that time i support the 2000 year old definition. i know and they're sitting here tonight that is the most important thing. >> governor christie you proposed with the seven a rifle that after he vetoed

you said jake goes too far but instead of making a simple change coming you would struck the whole fading to say that you did not do that. review caving to groups? >> no. i agreed with what it was a client care and they decided for political reasons to make it more broad so they need to understand if they break a deal there will be ramifications. the fact is that you cannot in one tea to have a bipartisan agreement with the legislature the most important thing they did not keep their word on this.

that is not the way i operate. >> we try to teach them a lesson. >> when i tried to do is tell them that is a i was willing to agree to some than ready to go back to the beginning to start over. >> the fact is that is the way negotiations work between the effective government and legislature. >> there is something called the conditional veto that he has made little use although he could have done it with this. what happened to he was for it to for he was against their. that in no uncertain terms that they would work thank actively against him in the primary. instead of standing up to

the nra. coming to the nra you wilted. he should have stood up for the people of the jersey. >> i'd like to hear from the affordable care back door obamacare. as you know, that governor decided he decided to set up the house exchange. governor, why would you let the federal deficit take the lead with the delicate issue when generally it doesn't do a job -- a good job to do most things? you said it was the adoption and also health care is more affordable in the state because of his policies. is that true.

>> i joined 33 other states democrats and republicans who choose the federal option because field on the administration refused to tell the governors of both parties how much control the would have if you make me responsible but no way to make a decision i say no thank you i will not accept a blank check to the federal government from the taxpayers of new jersey. the was an option that the congress and the president put and we took that option just like 33 of their states with democrats and republicans don't know i don't think it is good at running things they will prove that they're not running this either but i will not give them a blank check for what i believe is a flawed bill and a failed policy. >> but are you clearly against.

>> there has not been dating against resistance buddy. >> but this is a lost opportunity we should of had a state run health care exchange for people to have more choices, less costly the left money on the table that could have been utilized to conduct a robust outreach program and the reason this governor is in doing a passive resistance is he does not want to see it as embracing obamacare because his architects of the shutdown this is the reason they shut down government even though it was voted and negotiated and validated by the supreme court just because they don't have the votes to repeal it they hold the american people hostage and it is a threat to democracy.

>> senator buono and with the last debate the governor brought up six pave reform and has been unable to get any kind of reforms through the legislature. >> that's not true. >> you can explain when i finish could do an end to police and other government workers? >> this is a local issue contracts negotiated by mayors not the state government they have limited said paley's. matt is the bill be sent to the governor reid tried to reach the meeting of the minds you cannot take away something that people have turned to that with the headlines with the understanding we have to end the abuse absolutely.

>> she is in the pocket of the local union who would endorse her and support her spending money on her behalf. it is for local taxpayers you should not be paying people hundreds of thousands of dollars but you were not sickie should not pay for it so i will veto any bill that gives the additional a giveaway to the public sector union powless i will stand up to the taxpayers of villagers he no more sick pay payout. >> but the ppa endorsed you i believe. >> know they did not. . .