hybrids, are they over and above the 401. >> no. they are components of that 401. the art literally hundreds and hundreds of similar situations as to the claude moore farm within those 401. >> and you are advised presumably by your ethics office or by your attorneys when you go about to organize for the shutdown in anticipation of the shutdown that you're going to have to make thousands of discrete decisions in a very collapsed timeframe. ..

>> of federal appropriations from the national park service. we recently spent be several hundred thousand dollars repairing their or sewer system, we do ongoing safety and food inspections, trash removal and road maintenance. so we had to evaluate in the case of claude moore, in the case of dozens of these, of whether or not we would be in violation of the antideficiency act by allowing these to continue to operate. so if you may, let me just say we took the closure date on october 1, and then we began to evaluate each of these operations individually to insure that we were not violating. and those that we felt we could honestly and clearly and legally reopen, we have done that. >> by the way, i have limited amount of time left, but i want to say at least speaking for this member i just heard my

colleague from colorado make some rather strong statements about you and your service. i completely disavow those comments. i think you have been an exemplary public servant. i think you've done the best you could under very trying circumstances. i think you have put up with some criticism because some -- no one here, of course -- want to deflect public attention from their own actions, namely the consequences of a shutdown. but to trash somebody's good reputation who has served this country well as labor of love as well as your professional commitment to the national parks and making them the best they can be, i just want you to know that many of us here and many throughout the country who very much value your service and deeply regret any suggestions that somehow you're responsible for the shutdown --? >> would the gentleman yield? >> i have seven seconds, mr. chairman, but i'd be glad to yield. >> well, i thank the gentleman

for yielding, i just understand that the anti-deficiency act goes back to the 1860s, and yet it was not employed in 1995 for whatever reason. i just thought with the record -- >> mr. chairman, could i at least ask -- >> you can have your six seconds. >> mr. galvin, is that true or not? >> it's not true. the anti-deficiency act ruled the same way in '95-'96 the same way it does now. >> thank you, gentlemen. i now recognize myself. director jarvis, do you remember april of this year coming before one of these committees, the oversight committee? >> yes, sir. >> and between april 16th and october 1st you were not shut down. you had the ability to operate fully, is that correct? >> that's correct. >> so for those many months after you promised to deliver us the discovery including 400 pages previously identified before that hearing and didn't do so, you did so out of contempt for your promise to

this committee? >> i -- >> or was it just an oversight? do you just not know that you promised to deliver documents related to discovery, and you don't do it? >> no, sir. those decisions are made by the department of the interior. >> well, i'm going to take that decision away from you. i will be issuing a subpoena to you before the close of this hearing, and i will expect as soon as the government reopens for you to comply with it. additionally, i'm going to ask our clerks to go through the record and find each and every document and request made during this hearing and, again, issue a subpoena since it's very clear that the promises you make have no value, because someone at the department of interior simply doesn't bother to deliver documents already known. and those documents are related to our accusation of prior abuse. so mr. connolly may want to say you're exemplary, i find it questionable. let me ask you a very simple

question i started this hearing with. whose land is it? is it your land, is it the goth's land or do you oversee the people's land? and, please, think before you answer. >> it's the people's land. >> don't you have an obligation to absolutely, positively mitigate the adverse effect on people? >> i operate under the -- >> no, no. i know. don't tell me about the law. do you have an obligation? you're restrained by laws, but do you have an obligation to deliver with the best of your ability with the limited funds you may or may not have? >> i absolutely do. >> then in the case of ms. eberly, isn't it true that, in fact, every day her organization saves the american people money they would otherwise spend to operate that park, or the park would be gone, is isn't that true? you kept talking about the million dollars you delivered. she delivered twice, three times, four times that in value through volunteers, through fundraising. >> absolutely. we love our partners. >> okay.

so here's your public/private partner, and you shut her down and cost her far more than any potential savings. you spent money to barricade so that she, in fact, couldn't operate, and you did so without prior notice. let me ask you an important question. what was the first day in your job -- you talked about 2016 and what you're anticipating and who you're working with. what was the first day you began asking the question over the last year, we'll just use 2013, what do i do in the case of a shutdown related to the lack of appropriations? what was the first day? >> well, we were facing a potential shutdown in 2011 when the -- >> okay. so since 2011 your testimony is that, in fact, you've known there's a potential for a shutdown. >> that's correct. >> you were with the park service, and you were aware of the agreement made with arizona in -- in 1996. you were aware, could have been aware, of course, ms. eberly was not shut down back then. you were aware that contrary to what was shown in an earlier

picture that, in fact, the lincoln memorial was not closed as that picture falsely shows at some earlier barricade. >> [inaudible] >> this is a repair period of time. it may, in fact, be an actual picture, but the pictures we have seen show that pictures walked up. this barricade was not, in fact, keeping from people from going -- people went all the way up. you'll notice, mr. defazio, you'll notice the conduction. this picture is also from that period and shows people actually being seen with the sign up there, going there. the fact is, you had a history and a tradition. why did you not make the effort and the context to find out how to mitigate? why did you not talk to the mayor's people or representatives? why was there not an attempt to see what they could do to mitigate it? why were those contracts not dusted off in preparation many why didn't you do anything to

mitigate this whenever possible, and why did you cause ms. eberly to sit there and lose money and perhaps her organization go into an inability to maintain it when, in fact, you know and i know that that road maintenance is being deferred whether she's open or closed, isn't that true? >> i immediately upon the closure began to look at the documents from the grand canyon -- >> okay. that's a great answer, and my time is expiring. you waited until after october 1st and then began after you asserted pain on people through a lack of planning, you began planning so that a week, two weeks, three weeks after you'd made your point, you'd made your point that you could punish the american people by shutting down and taking away assets they cared about, then you began because of public opinion opening back up. for the record, isn't it true that everything you've done to reopen could have been anticipated and done in advance? in other words, if you can

reopen per parking lot, then, in fact, you had the authority never to close it, isn't that true? >> we did not have -- >> the law didn't change -- >> in all due respect, in all due respect, the national park service is a very big, complex organization. i did not know about claude moore any more than dozen obviously concern of others out there. i rely on my field representatives and my superintendents to tell me, and so what we had to do was shut it down in compliance with the lapse of appropriations and then immediately began assessing which ones we could reopen. and we did that with claude moore. i have over a dozen here more that have opened -- >> yeah, the grand canyon's kind of hard -- it gets overlooked. you didn't see it. and we all know that terrorists are going to go in and blow up the grand canyon. the fact that you overlooked the grand canyon is not credible. we go to the gentle lady from

massachusetts, ms. song gas. >> thank you. thank you, mr. jarvis, for being here. i do have two national parks. one commemorates the american revolution, the other commemorates the industrial revolution. these communities are the communities that host these national park, take such pride in all the great work you do and the tremendous leadership you've brought, the high standards you create, and we as an american people, i think, are proud of those standards and hate to see anything happen that undermines them as the sequester is certainly doing and as shutting down the government is doing. but i want to address, first, the whole issue of our veterans' access to the world war ii memorial. my father was a survive of pearl harbor. he went on to serve across the south pacific. he is no longer living, but i can't imagine that he would not be so dismayed by the circus that's been created around the

access issue to the memorial. and i happened to be in the airport when an honor flight group was coming from arkansas. it was a very celeb story moment. -- celeb story moment. these were older old, men who were -- older, older men who were so proud of their service to the country. i just want to reference that defite my republican -- despite my republican colleague's attempts to turn the world war ii memorial into a poster child, quote: veterans streaming into washington to see the monument don't really face any obstacles, and many complain they are being used for political gain. jim laughlin told politico, quote: we have had no problems as all, end quote. he said the park service has been, quote, very cooperative and very polite, unquote in allowing veterans' groups to

visit under the auspices that they're conducting, quote, first amendment activities, unquote. directer the jarvis, world war ii veterans has been able to visit the memorial, haven't they? have yes, ma'am, they have. >> thank you. i thank you, ms. simon, for your testimony. are we really surprised that the government shutdown would have an impact on our gateway communities, on our tourism industry? it isn't just something one could have foreseen? >> i don't think the fact that there was an impact was a surprise, no. i think everyone anticipated it. it was really not knowing what to expect come the first day of the shutdown. >> and that is why it is such a dismaying activity, given that it could have been avoided. a bill could have been brought to the floor that would have democratic support, the senate bill that was passed by the senate on a bipartisan basis,

brought to the floor of the house of representative, supported by democrats, supported by republicans and would have avoided this altogether. the national parks are where a lot of the discussion is going because they're very visible to the american people. and it's happening at a moment in time when visitation has historically been very high. but i don't think we can overlook all the other people and all the other institutions that have been so impacted. last week i had a heart-wren with. ing conversation with -- heart-remember. ing conversation with a nurse in my district who is furloughed because of the republican shutdown. as a federal contract employee, she is terrified that she won't be able to recover her lost pay, putting her family at financial risk. quote: we are the ones suffering, unquote, she told me. quote: we are hard working americans working paycheck to paycheck. something like this can destroy us, unquote. we have to remember the service

members who have returned from combat duty who may lose their college tuition assistance that they've been promised. clinical trials for cancer patients have been delayed, and veterans are being told that they will have to wait even longer to have their benefit claims reviewed. and, yes, it is so unfortunate that our national parks, someover our nation's most -- some of our nation's most treasured sites are closed to the public. but that is what happens when the federal government shuts down. we need to end this and end it today. thank you, and i yield back the balance of my time. >> gentle lady yields pack. yields back. we now go to the gentleman from michigan, mr. wahlberg. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and thanks to the panel for being here. i certainly agree with one of my colleagues who mentioned earlier on the other side of the aisle that we live in a parallel universe. a parallel universe of fact and of fiction. five years of government by

crisis has been taking place, beginning with the first two years of this administration when the democrats controlled the white house, the senate and the house. a budget wasn't passed either of those two years. continuing resolutions, continuing resolutions certainly work toward crisis, don't they? and now we've come to a big crisis where the democrats' shutdown of this government has taken place. now, they would call it something else, and they've been effective with the use of pawns in the media and pawns, sadly, in the bureaucracy, mr. jarvis, of making pain on the american public. but i'm concerned more about the public that's been put on the private sector economy. mayor bryan, ms. eberly, tourist associations. this was knowingly done. i'm concerned about the pain

that will be coming even worse for mayor bryan and ms. ebbler and i other -- eberly and other private concessionaries when obamacare has its full results and we have a part-time economy, not a full-time economy. because then it won't be a shutdown that stops people from visiting these wonderful sites that director jarvis, i visited when i was just a kid that led me in 1969 to go to university majoring in forestry and land management. over 40 years ago, my intentions were to be in the service that you're in. and since that time i've visited parks all over this country in 50 states, and i still do with my grandkids. but in the future they won't have that opportunity, because the economy that has gone to part-time economy and our people -- maybe not foreigners -- which we hope continue to come, but our people won't be able to afford to go to see that magnificent grand cap onthat i saw as a boy and as a

teenager and as a college student and as a father. i'm sick of hearing of. >> shutdown called anything other a democrat shutdown. we have offered four bills to fund the entire government, rejected by the senate-controlled senate. we've offered now 15 bills to open up necessary components of government -- oh, and by the way, one of those was the park service and the monuments. one of those was the veterans' administration, wic, and i could go on down the line. rejected in the senate, support inside a bipartisan fashion in the house. where's the problem? let me ask a question. ms. eberly, i heard you interviewed on tv, i think, after the first week. i appreciated your spunk. what has this cost you -- cost the colonial farm?

>> so far probably about $30,000, i guess. that probably doesn't seem like very much money down here, but to us is the. >> to you, it does. $20,000 when i first toured you, so it's gone up $10,000 more. my brother without me took a motorcycle trip along the blue ridge parkway just a few weeks -- well, a week before the shutdown. had dinner at the pisca inn. i've been there myself. beautiful part of the world. a week later it shut down, a private concessionary making money for the park service. let me ask a question, director jarvis. what does the park service think will happen if they don't close private businesses? >> private businesses that are both within and outside the national parks are essential to public service. i mean, that's -- so we have pisca inn, northwest trading post, folk art center and the

neighboring mill are all open as a result of the policy change i made to get them open along the -- >> how many others are closed still? >> i don't really know. >> hundreds. >> but i've opened over a dozen, cliff house, avon pier at cape hatteras, a number of these that really do not require our support. and do not violate the anti-- >> and hundreds are still closed. >> i've opened the window for anybody to request, and we are evaluating each one of those requests -- >> let me just, because my time is nine seconds here, and i would refer to you as well as mr. galvin. 1995 we had a shutdown. 1995 to the present, mr. galvin, we had the opportunity to put in place for that large government entity called the park service to put in place a plan so this wouldn't happen. why wasn't it taken care of

between 1995 and now? i contend it was because we wanted to inflict pain upon the taxpayer, the citizen to make them go along with policies that'll ultimately make it more problem for mayor bryan, ms. eberly and others, and i -- >> i thank the gentleman. i now ask unanimous consent to place in the record a letter dating march 27, 2013, to mr. jarvis concerning the oversight discovery responsibilities and request and then the response dated april 19, 2013, from your bosses at the united states department of the interior in which they promised that they were diligently working on the discovery that we have never received. we now go to the gentleman from nevada for five minutes. >> thank you. our national parks belong to the more than people, and they should be open. along with every other essential part of the government.

i have twice met with honor flights this month that brought our veterans to see the world war ii memorial. for some this was a once many a lifetime opportunity -- in a lifetime opportunity, and it was an honor to shake the hands of these service members. their service should not be politicized, and they should not be used as pawns. our nevada veterans were not stopped by barricades. in fact, they were warmly greeted and welcomed by park rangers allowing access to the memorial for first amendment activities. and i'd like to thank the park service rangers for the courtesies. you know, half the truth is often a whole lie, and i'm sorry that the representative from texas is not here, because one of the days that i was there he was there.

and for him to say that those veterans were turned away or that the park rangers treated them with disrespect is not the case. now, i represent nevada's 4th congressional district, and we are home to several national parks including the national, the lake mead national recreation lawyer which is the fourth most visited unit in the national park system of over 400. national parks are a vital part of our tourism industry and our economic base. in between votes on last saturday and monday, i was able to go back home to my district to meet with my constituent, and during one of my town hall, the former superintendent of the lake mead national recreation area came, and this is what he told me. first, the blame should not be

placed on the national park service or the individual park, but clearly on the shoulders of congress that caused the shutdown in the first place. the last thing the national park service wants to see is our precious parks closed to the american public. he went on to share that since the closure the park has already had to cancel seven events with an expected participation of 1,925 participants, and there's several additional events in the next two weeks with over 10,000 expected participants. having an effect on our local economy, on jobs, and on tourism. so, purchase, i ask for unanimous consent at this time to enter mr. o'neill's entire statement into the record. >> without objection, so ordered. >> thank you. director jarvis, thank you for your service. do you agree with mr. o'neill's

statement that the park service professionals would like to do their job and open the parks to the public? >> there's nothing on this planet that we would prefer to do than to get back to work and reopen all 401 national parks. >> ms. simon, i talked about some of the impacts to local communities surrounding national parks like lake mead. can you share other impacts that you've experienced and how it's affecting the private sector? >> yes. just in the first week we surveyed all of our members, and our tour operators reported collective losses estimated at $114 million just in that first week. so, you know, projecting that out in terms of what they have experienced so far as well as what they're continuing to experience because they're having to reroute tours without an end date in sight, they're having to reroute tours on into

the future and will be experiencing, you know, financial implications to having to find alternatives to those tours. >> thank you. mr. chairman, let me just close by saying one of my colleagues on the other side said something about director jarvis' failure to do his job. well, if director jarvis or my of the other public service professionals have failed for having to carry out the shutdown, then what does that say about the republican members who caused the shutdown in the first place? >> gentleman yields back his time. gentleman from virginia, mr. wittman. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i have the honor to represent america's 1st district in virginia which includes jamestown, yorkstown, williamsburg and also the historic battlefields there in fredericksburg, virginia. director jarvis, i want to ask you if you go back historically

and look at the shutdown in '95-'96 and you rook at how the park -- you look at how the park service handled specifically jamestown's settlement which, as you know, is run by preservation virginia, it's a private entity, they've been running that area since 1835, a nonprofit organization, the access is through the colonial parkway. in '95 operations there at jamestown settlement continued without interruption. this time around, unfortunately, historic jamestown was told to close by the park service. there was actually a park service employee there at the gate turning people away. they came from all over the country. you know, preservation virginia relies on the revenue generated there at jamestown settlement for their operations. that cost them about $6 or $7,000 a day. it took ten days to work out an agreement so that access to that

facility owned and operated by preservation virginia could reopen. can you give me some indication about why this time around things were different than they were back in '95 and why we couldn't have used the mechanism in '95 to assure that jamestown settlement could stay open through this shutdown? >> well, i will defer to mr. galvin to talk specifically about what occurred in '95, because i wasn't here p then. but i would say that we didn't anticipate this closure to last as long as it has. is and what has happened as a result of its extension is that we've had to figure out whether or not in each individual case whether we would be violating the anti-deficiency act because of the revenue, the amount of money, the facilities, whatever partnership aspect that we have with places like jamestown. and we had to take that to our

attorneys and say this is what we're investing, and then we had to say can somebody else cover that and then reach an agreement, and i was not involved directly in the one at colonial in jamestown, but i think we did work it out. i apologize that it took so long. that is certainly not our intent, to drag these things out. but the 1995 agreement was not ready to just be changed the date and the names on the bottom. all different attorneys, all different people in play now, and we've got the template now, so we're moving through these rather quickly including the state of virginia. the commonwealth has requested an interest, and we're quite willing to work with them. >> it just seems like, to me, with that framework even though the names and the times were different, it seems like, to me, the framework was in place to quickly get that done, and in anticipation -- it seems like to me -- of potentially where things were going, there should have been some effort to say,

wait a minute, while we had staff in place, the opportunity to do this, why wouldn't you look at these agreements to say if this does come, we have a contingency plan that we will be ready for this if it does happen? it's not time that's wasted or resources that are wasted. so it seems like to me, you know, anybody looking at this ought to have said maybe we ought to have ab contingency plan. listen, if this does happen, will will not be a cessation of operations in places like historic jamestown? >> we do set policy initially that is consistent with '95 that through roads, you know, obviously the george washington memorial park, the blue ridge park would remain open, and we set that standard, and that was, obviously, similar to 1995. but i think you make a good point. we haven't done this in 20 years shu.ing down -- shutting down is hard and complicated, and i think there are some lessons learned here.

we now have a very good template agreement to work with states, we now better understand the federal investment in each of these facilities. we don't have like a standing database on every one of our partnerships in washington. we had to receive that information coming in from the individual parks in order to assess it and to assure that we were not violating any current statute. i think we have learned and probably if, hopefully there's not another one of these, but if there is, i think we'll be better prepared. >> and i want to point out, too, we have some other concessionaries here like in the town of yorktown, right next to where my office is, a great restaurant, the care tree restaurant, listen, we just want to continue to operate. the problem is under their rent agreement, they have to continue to pay rent while you have told them to shut down. you know, the economics of that just doesn't work out. i'm paying rent, yet i cannot have customers come to the restaurant. it's an open thoroughfare, there's no requirement for any expenditure of park resources during any period of time, yet they were told to shut down, and

you can imagine how frustrated they are, how frustrated the community is with that because logically it makes no sense. separate from the political aspects of the shutdown, people look at that and go what in the world is going on. so i would urge that when these instances -- if they do occur in the future -- that these instances be planned for and that businesses by no fault of their own that are being asked to shut down, that we give consideration for them. with that, mr. chairman, i yield back. >> time of the gentleman has expired. chair recognizes the gentleman from california, mr. huffman. >> thank you, mr. chairman. you know, i've almost run out of adjectives to describe this unfortunate hearing that we're having today. the one that i'm left with is sad. i'm aman member of congress. -- a freshman member of congress. i'm very proud to represent my district, to serve in this institution, but i ams embarrassed by the committee process in this hearing, this sham of a a hearing that we're having today. i came to congress to solve problems. i came to congress to try to work across the aisle and raise

the political discourse in this country and try to set a better tone. and instead i am taking part in a hearing that makes the mccarthy era look like the enlightenment. the fact that it's taking place during a government shutdown manufactured for political purposes by my republican colleagues just makes it even worse. this is worse than fiddling while rome burns, this is fanning the flames while rome burns. this is looting and dancing while rome burns. we have heard all manner of over-the-top accusations from members of this committee, and we've heard made for right-wing media sound bites charges of malice, of deliberate infliction of pain, of a secret plan to maximize public inconvenience and impact. we've heard unnamed, anonymous witnesses from a media report talk about these nefarious intentions, and then we've heard

a member of this committee extrapolate from that and say it was the common belief among national service employees. all of this, of course, is going to be played on youtube tonight, it'll be played on fox news, all of these made for right-wing media accusations and claims, but there is zero evidence to support any of it. we've heard from folks who actually are on the ground who know, who can give us the facts, and there is zero evidence. if there this was a court, you w what would happen? the judge would bring the prosecutor, the plaintiff's attorney up to the sidebar and say i'm not only dismissing your case, if you ever bring a case like this and makeover-the-top accusations like that that you can't support with evidence, i'm going to sanction you, and i might even report you to the bar for ethical violations. but there's consequences x this is a kangaroo court. and so we will continue bouncing further into the rabbit hole, i

am sure. director jarvis, i can only imagine how difficult it is for you as somebody who who has dedicated your life and your career to the mission and the work of our national park service to be going through this shutdown of those very parks that you've dedicated your life to operating and is -- and serving. you're in the business of opening parks and managing them and running them. this is such a wonderful success story for our country, the national park service. to be asked to shut them down can, especially under these circumstances, must be awful. and i remember i just served six years in the california legislature, i chaired the parks committee. we went through our own parks crisis, and it is your agency that was helping us save parks from closure. you stepped up, you believe in your public lands and our parks and the people and communities they serve, and i want to thank you for your service. i can only imagine the indignity of having to sit there and listen to all of these baseless

axises, to listen to -- accusations, so listen to a witness who fronts for the oil and gas and coal industries and sues environmental agencies to try to prevent them from implementing environmental laws tell you that you are a terrible environmental steward, accuse you of hiding behind the veneer of popularity for our parks to actually do harm to our parks and our environment. it is a disgrace that you have had to listen to this indignity, that you've had to sit there, we've had to listen to people row romanticize about 1995 as if this were some shining model of how you can close down the national park system and not have anyone feel the pain. but we've also, fortunately, had a witness who actually presided over that disgraceful chapter and could tell us that, yes, the anti-deficiency act actually applied in that case, too, who can tell us that, no, it wasn't some shining model of success. monuments were closed, people were impacted, communities were impacted, pain was felt, some of

it very high profile pain. so, again, i am struck by the fact that despite the over-the-top, made for media axises and sound bites in this kangaroo court we have no facts at all to suggest you've done anything wrong. closing all of these parks, shutting down a huge federal agency is a hard thing to do. there's no easy or perfect way to do it. my only hope is that you are able to hang in there while we work through the terrible politics that have brought us to this government shutdown and that we can get back to the business of running our park service and serving the people and the communities that depend be on it as soon as possible. thank you for your service. >> time of the gentleman has expired. chair recognizes the gentleman from arizona, mr. go start. >> thanks chairman hastings. first, i'd like to thank them for showing up and having breakfast with me p. maybe we ought to have politicians have breakfast every morning. thank you, mayor bryan, for your leadership in regards to tuesday

on. tuesday onso interwoven with the park system, particularly of the grand canyon. but the situation we're examining today is simply unacceptable. without a doubt the obama administration has tried to make government shutdown as painful as possible for community cans like tucson to a achieve political gain in a district line mine, two large military facilities and over 70% of federally-administered land, the fact has been painfully evident. and, of course, it is arizona, and we know the relationship between this administration and arizona. as soon as the national park service announced it would shut down facilities like the grand canyon, i worked with our governor, jan brewer, and local leaders like mayor bryan to insure that it was opened. while i am pleased we came to an agreement, we have to make sure this type of nonsense never happens again and to make sure there is a seamless transaction. while i would like to avoid future shutdowns, the reality is that they will inevitably

happen. this certainly isn't the first and unfortunately probably not the last, and if we need any excuse, $17 trillion and growing of debt is going to be acknowledgment that we will bounce around the idea for some time. but our national parks are the people's parks, and they should not be manipulated by political purposes. for ten days the park service refused, refused to work with our local governments and businesses to keep these important economic drivers operating. our state wildlife agency and state parks agency offered to shoulder the burden of management, and our local governments offered to cheap in their scant dollars. but instead of working with us, the administration actually committed resources to further inconvenience our constituents rather than alleviate some of the burdens. what changed in those ten days? nothing. the political pressure from congress and the local community simply forced the agency to come to the table like in previous shutdowns, and i am committed to

introducing legislation or doing anything else i can within my capacity as a member of congress to insure there is a clear legal path, a seamless pathway towards keeping our parks open regardless of what happens in washington d.c. director jarvis, can you identify one of the seven wonders of the world located in arizona? >> you're speaking of the grand canyon? >> oh, absolutely. so it's one of the seven locations in the world. mayor bryan, i watched your eyes, you know, in regards to mr. jarvis talking about immediately reaching out to communities. is that the truth? >> well, congressman, i know that congresswoman kirk patrick, our senates flake and mccain as well as myself tried to contact and get information as to why we couldn't apply the 1995 and what we needed to do now, and from their office nothing other than the local

superintendent saying no. >> absolutely no. i mean, i was involved also in those mitigations with the governor. mr. jarvis, would you be prepared to turn over all documentation in regards to the attempts trying to reach your a offices and in regards to opening the grand canyonsome. >> yes, sir. >> that would be e-mails and phone hogs. so -- phone logs. so you didn't reach out to the grand canyon, the folks in the grand canyon, the governor of arizona when you were looking at the shutdown. >> me personally? no. because i can't talk to every governor in every community. but our local superintendent, i guarantee you that the superintendent of the grand canyon was talking to the community. the reopening of the grand canyon along with the reopening of all the national parks was front and center in our discussions in washington. i just as a little bit of history, and this would be in my records, is that immediately upon the shutdown i called the former superintendent of the grand canyon in 1995, rob

artberger, and i asked him specifically what happened on that day. >> well, i, that's all the record. >> okay. >> you know, let me ask your connotation of what we did in 2011. you knew there was contention, right, in government about debt. so those contingency plans, i was a dentist, so every patient that walks into my office, i have to be prepared for an emergency. so i go through and i rehearse it day in, day out. and i find it fraudulent that we weren't prepared to have a seamless transaction with our states, particularly one of the greatest marvels of the world, the natural resource, one of the marvels of the world, one of the seven natural wonders of the world, that you were unprepared for that dick taste. that's -- dictation. that's part of leadership. and i find it offensive is that there was ten days of absolutely no, no, no and no when we had a state and local municipalities trying to work on behalf of keeping those open to. so i'll be looking forward to

those answers. thank you. >> chair recognizes the gentlelady from new hampshire, ms. shea-porter. >> thank you. i sit on the natural resources committee, and i hope and i wish that the concern for the or national parks and the people continues after this. we actually had a harding, the republicansing invited -- a hearing, the republicans invited a witness whose suggestion was to basically allow all the national parks to charge market value. and if they charge market value, that would leave out the very people that we're talking about, average measures who want -- average americans who want access to their parks. so we shouldn't be sitting here acting shocked that closing the parks was part of closing the government. of course it was. but what i am shocked about is the tone in this place, and i'm embarrassed to be sitting here. and i would like to apologize. we can all have differences of

opinion, and we clearly do. and i hope the difference of opinion will be sod today, urge my colleagues across the aisle to accept that vote tonight if we very have it that the senate, the bipartisan senate agreement that will be coming to us. so we do have disagreements. but we shouldn't be talking like this x. the attack on you, director, i i a apologize. it's as ugly as i have seen, and i have seen some pretty ugly things here. this is my fifth year here, so i am very, very upset about this. i thought about walking out, and i thought, no, i need to tell all of you that we recognize how difficult this is. you didn't shut down the government, you didn't, they difficult and they need to acknowledge that. i can't imagine that there's anybody who works in a national park or dedicates his or her life to serving the public, that any of them would say, oh, let's close it during their busiest

s&p. let's keep americans out of the parks. these parks belong to americans, and our american workers have protected the parks and loved the parks and served the american people every single day until they shut the government down. now, the reason the government was shut down was not because they had a problem with the parks. it wasn't anything else that they were worried about. their problem was that the affordable care act was still there. and so they shut the government down in their pursuit to try to either alter or end the affordable care act which happens to be law, also was upheld by the supreme court. and so their last stand here is to insult the people, insult the federal workers, insult all those and also to try to deny culpability for the impact, the economic impact that this has had op our nation. on our nation. in my great state of new

hampshire, we have people who travel from all over the world to see the leaves. it's an annual event, and it's a pretty special show that god has provided for all of us. and yet we've been seriously impacted. small businesses in new hampshire and our new hampshire community is impacted not because of the federal workers, but because of the congress. and so to turn around and try to shift the blame and the responsibility is stunning. and that alone would be awful. but to hear the tone and the meanness and the accusations and the insults, my stomach has been twussing the whole time. i have a note that i had written, i was hoping to hand it off to the chairman, but he left. and so, please, can you and everyone else leave out these personal attacks and nasty tones. americans expect us to ask tough questions, make tough statements but civil.

civility. we can disagree. we do disagree. but, again, i apologize for the tone here, i apologize for the insults. i thank you, director jarvis, for the work that you have done for this country. and they have a right and an obligation to ask questions, but we don't have a right to bring in federal employees and treat them as if we're just batting them around like a cat with a mouse. and for that i apologize and yield back. >> gentlelady yields back. recognize mr. mcclintock. >> i would remind my friend from new hampshire that three times the house voted to fund the government, three times the democratic senate rejected those measures and refused to resolve our differences -- >> will the gentleman yield? >> no, i will not -- that served our country for 225 years. i would also remind her that on october the 2nd, the republican house vote today reopen the parks. we were joined by 23 house

democrats who courageously defied their party leaders. .. >> if the governor of california had taken is an action would yosemite be open today? >> i would assume so. >> transported understand correctly you ordered barricading -- >> mr. chairman? mr. chairman, i seek to be

recognized. >> a point of order. >> the gentleman from california has the time. did you ask the gentleman to yield? >> point of order spent the gently seeks a point of order. >> the suggestion, the falsehood was that suggesting i was lying? if so i would like to have you do with that. >> mr. chairman? >> the chair is going to rule that the timeliness of the has to be immediate and the timeliness of your remarks was not time in this case. and so the chair recognizes the gentleman from california. >> after the dialogue that we had earlier i thought the chairmen would address that if that happen. i remember an earlier conversation here, and i thought that what i heard you say at that time suggested that you would indeed step in if there were any -- >> if the chair is asking, if the john glenn is asking the chairman whether there is consistency with the

conversations with another number on the side of the aisle earlier, i think i'm absolutely consistent on that because the gentleman from california was talking in the third person. the gentleman from california is recognized. >> if i may clarify i was merely saying the statements that this shutdown is the fault of the republicans and republicans repeatedly voted to keep the government open is false. that is a fact. mr. jarvis, did i understand you correctly that you ordered the barricading of public property to which the public would normally have unrestricted access to? >> i ordered the closure of all 401 national parks. >> did anybody instruct you to barricade these public venues? >> no, sir. >> so that came from you? >> that's correct. >> let me read you an e-mail, complaints flooding into my office. and false kings canyon national

park. the jump and rights to get to my place of residence and work i have to travel through the big stuff entrance station on highway 180. currently the anti-roadway is barricaded and it appears as though the park service is attempting to prevent anyone from traveling to or through the national park. my concern is twofold. first, i personally later on private property and there's the appearance of the government is trying to prevent us from accessing our private land. second, i was in the area of 17 years ago as a young adult during the last government shutdown and this type of thing didn't happen. the visitors centers were closed by the land was still accessible. i fear our federal government is overstepping in this area and i don't know where to turn in order to get this corrected. mr. jarvis, by what authority did your agency barricade public highways and impede the public from accessing their own private home and business is? >> my closure orders are issued on october 1 did allow for people to access their private

property. even if the was on a closed road, but only for the purposes of accessing their private property, not for recreation. all three roads to the national park system have been remained open such as chi overpass in yosemite. and the three roads to the great smoky's. but the roads that lead directly into the park and not through to access the other side are all close as a part of -- >> and yet this gentleman says 17 years ago they were open and that your action has impede him from reaching his private property. >> i would say 1995 the canyon was closed. >> mr. jarvis, yosemite, the cards that pull out in parking lots where none are normally post. you've said that this is in response to the added efficiency act that only allows acts to protect life and property. i would wonder if you explain

how is life and property threatened by parking in the open parking lot instantly taking pictures of bridal falls? >> if you're taking a picture of bridal falls you're not on a through road. >> you are on a turnout over a public parking area. how is parking in a public parking area a threat to life and property? >> these pullouts are maintained by federal appropriations. we pick up the trash. we protect the resources from fire, from damage and vandalism. >> taking a picture is vandalism? >> no. taking a picture is up and listen, but use of these facilities that are close because we do not have an appropriations -- >> my time is very limited. i'm working on legislation that would forbid barricading restricted public access to any open air public space to which

the public normally has unrestricted access or to interfere with normally permitted public recreation on public land. would that alleviate a lot of the problems that are being reported to us? >> yes, indeed it was. it would alleviate some of them. but as i think as you see, the anti--- the director of the park service hides behind the added efficiency act when it's useful and he ignores it when it's not. and this is i think going to continue as long as these kinds of people are allowed to run the national park service and the department of interior. >> the gentleman's time has expired. the chair recognizes the gentleman from arizona, mr. grijalya. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. i've been trying to get something out of this meeting, and thus far it's been very difficult. but a couple of questions and it

was not dual parallel universes of alternative universe. it means you're not dealing with reality very well which will make the distinction of what i said. mr. jarvis, thank you for being here. i know that, i wish this was an honest effort to discuss why you forced to respond to congressional efforts to shut down our government, why the sequestration continues to mount increased burdens on the agency. but this is a media event and has to be treated like such. there is not a look for solutions. what i did find interesting, mr. jarvis, one of the things that are learned is the idea that we have to have a shutdown preparedness program within every agency. that because, it's been admitted by my colleagues, this phenomenon will continue and there will be other shutdowns.

so there's a preparedness plan that you must now put together. so you minimize that at publicity so that special parks in their areas are left open, so there's not any public criticism so that the most visible, like the grand canyon, are left open so we minimize that public opinion and public response to the fact that one of their treasures and all other public lands are being closed and the consequence of shutdown. it's an interesting preparedness issue. i don't how you will do it, but that will require you to be able to steal from 20,000 people. keep the parks open, all access open, do it with four, 500 people, and in that preparedness plan, make sure that the public lands are left alone, yet do not have the money to operate. it's an interesting request. i don't know if it's a foregone conclusion you can come up with

a plan. i would suggest it's probably an effort that doesn't require any time, it just requires that all the parks be left open, that there be no oversight, that there be no security, that there be no maintenance and they're just open. it is a silly request and they sell the idea to do with an adverse publicity as has been generated by the closure of our government and in particular in this area the government, the public land. the other thing i learned is that we should start as part of preparedness, have pre-existing templates with each state so they could assume the payment of keeping their parks open, the grand canyon being one of many. i would also hope we extend that same idea to hud, department of

education, health and human services, all the other agencies that are being affected by the shutdown so that we have with the state of arizona preexisting memorandum of understanding that they will take over and fund head start, that they will take over and fund like keep, that they will take over and fund education, that they will take over and fund veterans services. native american service, programs in the state of arizona. i think that would be a gesture that would be felt across the state of arizona and i would sort of -- shortly urge our government, ms. subra, that just as she worked on the grand canyon opening that those are legitimate concerns that the people of arizona are facing as well. and i would suggest, mr. mayor, that you would join with me in making sure that iranian -- uranium mining is kept away from the grand canyon because that is

a threat, an imminent threat and the shutdown doesn't mitigate that at all. it's there for 20 years and under appreciative of the secretary's moratorium, but that is an imminent threat to the grand canyon as well. let me ask you, mr. mayor, do you agree that the entire shutdown was not needed, should never have happened, or do you support the government shutdown efforts, to support some government shutdown efforts as long as the parks in the region remain open? >> is the congress and asking if i shut -- ever support a shutdown of the united states government? >> yes. >> i do not. >> i'm glad you worked with the governor brewer, because her october 1 media released right after the whole shutdown thing started and she said she was

not, she said, saying the grand canyon opening is not a concern but she said the money she will be trying to state resources to keep the grand canyon open during a federal government shutdown. i don't know if the grand canyon is a priority for the state of arizona, the governor said following a closed-door meeting with her cabin. have a lot of other priorities out there, like our national guardsmen, children and people that will be hurt intentionally with a shutdown. i want that in the record and i yield back. >> the gentleman's time has expired. you can't yield back time you've used over, so that your speakers are we not only eight minute rule? >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from pennsylvania, destiny and. >> director jarvis, thank you for being here. i'm under duress that i am appreciative of your source for a number of years on behalf of the national parks. but look, apart from all of this other stuff i have a commonsense thing i need to resolve with you. i five minutes and i want to walk through something, if we

can. you've identified a couple of different times the anti-deficiency act. that has motivated some of your actions. you are aware in the 120th of the added efficiency act there has never been an indictment or conviction under that act. you're unaware that? >> i was not aware that. >> well, there hasn't been, okay? i said suggest there's moments even we does -- i know you've identified yourself as having worked as a park enforcement officer in a previous time. have you been at valley forge park at any point in time during her service? >> i've never worked there but i've been there. >> it's a marvelous place. i'm privileged to be able to represent the area here but my problem is, i have 20 people who are my constituents that happened to be joggers and i'm holding in my hand the united states district violation, 392-8431 from john bellinger gave me permission to raise this issue with you. he was fined $100 for jogging in

the park. i'm asking you, you've identified yourself as having significant prostitute discretion and am asking you right now, this has nothing to do -- these are the people being called in, mr. bell and others like to take time off of work, they'll have to hire attorneys, they'll have -- you have to have your people go to court and spend hours sitting in the third district court in philadelphia miles away center to enforce a $100 of citation. you have discretion. i'm asking whether you will remove these citations, the $100 fines from the 20 joggers who use valley forge park? >> i'm not in the position or have the authority to change a ticket that has been issued. that's up to the court system. now, what i will say -- >> well, let's go through the record and. because i want to establish on the record that you have allowed this enforcement to take place.

so it's your position that they're obligated to pay this fine. >> if they were issued a citation for violating what ever they were -- >> what violation is a they did bite talking on the parks because it would be on the citation. >> it says the park closed. >> i believe that was a parking ticket spent it's not a parking ticket. look at the parking ticket goes to the vehicle. this was, they parked in a lot. you have an obligation in order to identify the areas where the closures are, you have barricades, not much signage. again, under the law, this is a public notice requirements that you have under the law. the barricades were placed in a place where it was entirely foreseeable on a sunday morning when this job took place that they're still there from saturday night. the signage was no bigger than this. in fact, they went to a parking lot in which there was no signage. you have an obligation under the law to make sure it's all a long

the boundaries. so as a matter of law i question whether or not he gave appropriate notice. did you an edition published in the newspaper that the parks were closed? >> we publish on the internet -- >> in the local newspaper as it says, give obligation to publish in newspapers of general circulation in the affected area. so did you do that? >> i did not. >> said he didn't fulfill any of the requirements. here's one want to ask you again. you said that people were entitled to sit in the parks here, occupying, because they were protesting. in any group of less than 20 is entitled to be in the park and protest. how do you know by jogging in the park they weren't protesting, either for or against the health care law by exercising their right to be out in the open and showing what good, helpful lifestyles kandu? >> in the closure order issued on october 1 we get --

>> is that or not, could that possibly be an expression of their first amendment right? >> i would say that would be a very difficult case -- >> you said it was content neutral, may not exercise, be concerned to be adding exercise of their constitutional rights the first amendment constitutional rights? >> sir, if you'd let me finish my sentence. all of the national parks across the system, except for the national mall and independence park, close to first amendment activity. that's in my closure order. spent why are they closed? what's the selective enforcement? why can't someone in valley forge park a have the same abilities that first amendment rights as somebody at independence hall 20 miles away? >> because independents and the national mall are treated nationally as cipher first amendment. the parks are closed because we don't have an appropriation.

in the case of the -- >> what is the appropriate you needed -- are you aware that jogging paths are entirely contiguous to the public through way that goes through and the alternative is for those joggers not to jog on the paved path next to the open highway which you've already identified a three way that they run in the street where they have the opportunity to be hit by cars? >> real quickly, respond. >> i'm not aware that detail. >> so the last thing, you will make these people go to court over $100, is that i could? >> the gentleman's time has expired. the gentleman's time has expired. any answer the question? >> is your position this is not a person in the right and that they must go to court to protect -- >> the gentleman's time has expired. , and what you can do is the gentleman from pennsylvania knows there's always an opportunity for follow-up questions and i suspect that one needs to be answered in some way and the gentleman can follow up with a. the chair recognizes the

gentleman from pennsylvania, mr. cartwright. >> and i want to thank chairman hastings, ranking member defazio, chairman issa, ranking member cummings for bring us together and also the witnesses for showing up today and giving us your input and your testimony. this hearing looks at a very narrow impact of the shutdown, but one that has directly impacted my district i represent the 17th congressional district of pennsylvania, which has two shuttered national park right now, this team down national, a historic site, and the delaware water gap national recreation area. during the month of october these two parks combined to attract an average of nearly 14,000 people a day, adding over $400,000 to the local economy every single day. these parks are also important

sites to visit for my constituents. just the other day a younger for my district wrote me a letter begging me to open these parks to avoid ruining her birthday celebration. everybody in this room knows that there is a simple solution to the problem. the solution does not lie with the park service. which is following the law and doing the best in this terrible situation congress has created. the solution has been and still is simply to pass a continuing resolution crafted in the senate, refund the government with no strings attached. continue to work out our policy differences while we have an open and functioning federal government. i can honestly reply to this young girl who wrote to me that i and my part are doing everything in our power to reopen the national parks and our entire national government. i have voted 16 times to bring up the senate clean continuing

resolution, opening the government with no strings attached. i got on the floor and have asked unanimous consent to bring up this clean cigar we called it. i have cosigned letters and discharge petitions to that effect. all of this has fallen on deaf ears with the majority refusing even to allow a vote on a clean cigar opening our government with no strings attached. as of tomorrow, the government shutdown will be the second longest in our nation's history. and the impact of the shutdown goes well beyond the topic of today's hearing. soon, federal funding for the wic assistance program may not be sufficient to cover all benefits. thousands of poor children will lose access to preschool programs. low-wage federal employees, many of whom live paycheck to paycheck, continue to suffer without salary, and some 71,000 federal employees in pennsylvania alone have either

been furloughed or have suffered a pay cut. collapse in federal funding may also hold employment and training programs for people who rely on snap benefits to beat. the housing choice voucher program is running out of funds meaning thousands of my constituents are facing possible conviction. the last year, sba approved over 1000 loan applications for small businesses in pennsylvania every day. and these loans have completely stopped. for companies in my district like private contracting companies which connects disabled veterans on businesses, the shutdown has disallowed the purchase of sba bonds make it difficult to hire new employees and jeopardizes the businesses contracted so. of course, we've all heard about the threat to social security, veterans benefits, head start, military pay, and a myriad of other federal programs that people rely on. we have to reverse our course.

we have to pass a clean cigar, reopen the government with no strings attached. we have to reach a broader deal to undo the sequester and restore funding to many programs, including the parks service. these goals are not out of reach but i urge the majority to act by passing a clean cigar and a clean debt ceiling bill. the outrage displayed by the majority at this hearing is unreasonable. given that they caused this mess. i urge my colleagues on both sides of the aisle to act together for the good of the country. without i yield back, mr. chairman. >> the chair recognizes the children from michigan, mr. benishek. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mayor bryan, earlier we heard director jarvis talk about the through roads in the parks. i noticed you were like shaking your head their as if the through roads were open.

he said that the through roads will be open. what was your thoughts of that testimony? >> congressman, to the best of my knowledge that during the closure highway 64, which is a through road from i 40 through tusayan into highway 89 was closed all except for the first today's. and it was reopened last saturday when the park was fully reopen. but during much of that it was closed. >> do you know that -- why that was done? apparently his letters dated october 1 directing the closure of the parks allow, directed a through roads remain open. >> congressman, my understanding was that the first today's the superintendent did keep it open but closed the parking basis so people parked in the roadways and created, i agree, a safety

hazard because the parking areas were closed. and then after, looking at that, they did close the road in its entirety. we had offered county assistant. we offer to assist in any way we can, and also identified that i was 54 was crucial, was crucial to keep open to the tourism industry. >> director jarvis, do you have any response? >> well, we looked at every through road policy that it issued as a part of the closure order with specifically to routes they're specifically designed to go through the park from like one town to the next. and the road that the mayor is mentioning here is really a park road. it travels along the is it a through road? it's a through road of the. spent you come out on the other hand, yes. absolutely can come out on the other end. it is not designed as a we

consider a through road which is good but it is not a through road in this sense that your statement did not close through roads doesn't apply to get? >> that's -- >> that doesn't make any sense to me. let me go on another little direction you. my district is in michigan. we have several national parks and national guard units that have been impacted by the shutdown, and although they're not as high profile as the world war ii memorial or frankly the grand canyon, it's important to people in our district keep those parks open. there are businesses that rely on those parks. and i want to submit some photos for the record, mr. chairman, that show that the park is actually accessible through county roads that remain open. although there the signs at the main entrance of the park is

closed, fat, you know, our county roads remain open and you can still access the beach and many other recreation areas of the park. because we have a system in sleeping bear dunes park that county roads shall remain open. this is something that mr. bishop brought up earlier, and that is whenever we cede authority the federal government of our land, without having local input or local people being involved and we risk these arbitrary rules coming forward that affect the people locally. so i know and the natural resources committee we were working hard to try to assure that rules are developed with local input and state and local government intervention. and, unfortunately, ms. eberly is gone apparently --

[inaudible] >> i just wanted -- i mean, so let me ask you. do you have a relationship with the park superintendent that is different than is with the national party, the higher level authorities? do you have a good working relationship with your guys there at the park? >> congressman, i thoroughly enjoyed our relationship with the park superintendent. we firmly believe that he was at dean in difficult situations, and responding to the directions that came from the administration, whether director jarvis or secretary jewell or the president. but we believe he's trying to do the best he could but have no choice. >> it's my contention that if that's the case and many a situation there was a local park superintendent who was willing to work with a local governments to make things work but sometimes the guys in washington, you know, they have

these directives that good down to make these arbitrary difficult rules. and i think it's very, very important that we consider national park rules that have local input, does not allow folks in washington to determine how we use our land in the states. >> the gentleman's time has expired. i ask unanimous consent that the gentlelady of south dakota, ms. noem, is allowed to participate in today's hearing. without objection, so ordered. the chair recognizes the gentle way from new mexico, ms. grisham. >> thank you for that, mr. chairman. i appreciate the opportunity. i have some specific questions for director jarvis in relation to -- [inaudible] >> yeah, we're going back and forth. the gentlelady from new mexico is recognized. my unanimous consent was to

allow you to set and censure not a member of either committee, unfortunately you are the last one. but that's how that works. generally from new mexico is recognized. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman, and thanks to the ranking members for putting this committee hearing together. and again, i sure with my colleagues in thanking the panelists. difficult issues, very difficult situation that we find ourselves in. mr. jarvis, has the national park service received any funding since september 30 of? >> know, they have not spent so ongoing to see if i understand this done. you manage over 400 national parks, 84 million acres of land, and you currently have no money, resources, to spend on your responsibilities to preserve and maintain our national treasures. responsibilities that congress gave you through law. how do you not have any money? did you lose it or mismanaging?

>> there was a lapse in the appropriations that employs our current working are working without pay. >> though you were here before the committee today because congress allow there to be a government shutdown, which causes you and your employees to be furloughed and not be in a position to manage 84 million acres of land and 400 national parks of? >> we have no appropriations, that is correct, to pay to operate the parks. >> so mr. jarvis, these are mostly rhetorical question. i thank you for trying to make the best out of a very bad situation, that congress has created. the federal government employees responsible for closing our national parks and shutting down the government are sitting here behind the dais today. and i want to point out to you that, in fact, there have been administrative penalties against federal employees who have not followed the letter of the law of the added efficiency act, and i assure you that if you're trying to do that and used

discretion, and we understand these are difficult issues, and i am in my district suffering from the same issues. new mexico is known for tourism and visiting national parks and state parks. it's a disaster for all of us, and all of the businesses that we rely on to help build our economy. it's a partnership. but i would tell you that you yu would be before a lease the government oversight committee if he decided to implement and have discretion that you are not entitled to do under the law. i think we should change the hearing title ii, i know it's not your fault but i'm still going to blame you, should be the title of the hearing today. and i think it's really -- i think it's shameful. and new mexico as a 27% reliance on federal funds. our private sector partnerships are critical. we have a very fragile economy for a long period of time. in my district we were the only district in the country with a negative jobs growth. so just as we were seeing those

incremental changes, and your test and was very compelling about its fragile, and to allow it to get to this point so that i'm not in a position to both support my town and to run my business. and neither is anybody else because it's a partnership, symbiotic relationships that make a difference to everyone. i think it shameful that we're asking you to explain your decisions when we have the power to stop all this nonsense and we could do it immediately. i want folks to know that we're about to furlough 9000 employees in my district at sandia national labs. i had the meeting with federal employees that are living paycheck to paycheck. these people are hired by the federal government. they are not going to make their mortgages, they can't afford their child care. i heard from a civilian air traffic controller currently at the air force base who is worried about the safety of the

and because he's not allowed to work. so the very men and women who protect our country don't get the same protections that i get as a private citizen by flying commercially. the faster congress realizes that we are hurting millions of people across the country, that every single day by failing to accomplish one of our fundamental responsibilities, the faster this senseless shutdown ends and we stop having hearings about what discretion and decision she can or cannot make but what kind of partners we have and what our priorities are for resources in this country. with that, mr. chairman, -- >> would the gentlelady yield? >> i will spend i guess the question and perhaps you were not here earlier, the questions that we had, the reason for the title and i take responsibly for the name of the title, where people like ms. eberle who, in fact, was cost the park service nothing, and ultimately director jarvis that's all recent under testimony that he began after the close everything on octobe

october 1, he began discovering organizations like hers that he could reopen. so i hope the gentlelady appreciates that yes, we are looking at the part of failure, not the part of success, and we're not looking at the shutdown because neither of these committees are appropriations committees. we can't affect it, per se, but we are looking at whether or not there was a plan to keep as much open as possible or there was a failure to plan, which i think is what, if you stay for the whole thing, you will see a pattern of spent may i respond, mr. chairman? >> very briefly. >> thank you so much. i appreciate that, and recognize that we have an obligation, particularly in the government oversight hearing, to get that best practices. but to get that best practices in a crisis management situation that we created as voting members of this body, i disagree that this is the most useful time here, and believe that we could do a much better job by supporting them to enhance these

partnerships by having the resources to do so. with all due respect i disagree, and thank you, mr. chairman for allowing me to respond. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from california, mr. lamalfa. >> and to chairman. i appreciate it. first of all i would preface their remarks. i appreciate my colleague from hampshire a little while ago talking about the tone of what goes on around here. i'm one of the newer ones here in the congress and so her remarks is something i guess that we should all share because it seems every speech, or nearly every speech on the floor or in the committee, on the other side of the aisle talks about republican this, republican that and the republican shutdown when at least, at least an equal amount of the blame could live with the director of the senate, the pro tem of the senate on the other side or what the white house who has been i'm going to talk to us until very recently. so we are all duly elected equipment jordan in this house,

center by our districts to work through things that we might disagree on. so the partisan rhetoric does help a whole lot without cut indeed we have issues of budget deficits. we have huge national debt issues. and yes, there's disagreeing on the affordable care act as it's called and its implication as we see the websites, higher prices, people complain all over the country, then being subject to fines if they choose not to sign the. so yes, they're going to have some differences of opinion on some very giant issues and we should be allowed to express those differences and hash them out in the process we have in this republic. instead, it seems the other side wants to go to one party system of input by shutting us out when things get out of this house like the measures we sent in recent weeks to fund the government in many different aspects, many of those with approximately 30 democrats supporting them. they look at the politics.

they don't want to be against opening the park. they supported our measures. they don't want to be against our veterans. is supported our measures. there's plenty of blame to go around on this but there are surely some big issues that we stand for that have to be stood up for. to going into what we are really here for today, mr. jarvis, you know, we talk about yes, the park service is a very big and complex organization, like a lot of what our government is and what some of us believe needs to be gained. i have in my district in northern california near the whiskeytown reservoir in which is a federal project along highway 299, there is a lake with a two lane road. you were talking about a low-key approach. during this slow down. the highway has numerous turnouts. during the shutdown my office has received numerous reports that federal officers preventing

people from stopping at these turnouts. again, along a two-lane highway. a truck with flashing lights would pull up behind him and threatened him with a ticket if they do not keep moving. so how can you justify people from stopping at a rest stop or a turnout on a state highway? these things either as much for the safety or places to go over as it is for the scenery. how is hurting drivers and safety and the federal interest and how is it a critical function, especially if you're trying to assert a low-key approach? a truck with the little -- they can be quite startling. >> i've instructed our law enforcement rangers throughout the system to take a low-key approach to this, and i know in the number of cases they actually have due to safety remove any barriers or cones from these pullouts or parking lots. but for safety purposes. they are closed because the

national park service has a lapse and appropriation and we can't do any maintenance. we can't pick up any trash. we can't protect the resources. >> you are not protecting anybody when you have a pole day it would be a safety factor where somebody is made having a car problem, maybe they want to pull over and use the phone or do something. if you bend down to 99 there is a long stretch we can pull over going from the valley to the coast. so yeah, if they happen to take a picture of something, yet they run into cones and get people going up behind them with trucks threatening them, that seems to be over the topic i think there should be maybe just a little bit of embarrassment after point where some of the heavy-handed majors have been coming out of this department. anything? >> again, i tell you that i told my officers to take a low-key, soft approach to enforcement, recognizing that the american public are -- this is a painful impact on them as well as it is

to us. >> all right. >> like the other day there was a demonstration held by our veterans out at the memorials here in town, and so the day after come immediately after, bright and early, a monday morning, which was a national holiday, there was stuff out there redirecting those berries with water, with it, the whole works. woody's furloughed folks or were they getting overtime since this was a national holiday? >> everybody that is working at this time is not being paid. so there's no overtime speed they will be paid overtime because -- >> they are not getting paid overtime. they are not getting paid at all. >> will they be accruing overtime? spent they will not be occurring over time. >> the gentleman's time has expired. >> mr. chairman, i ask unanimous consent to be allowed to make a procedural matter. >> the gentleman is recognized. >> director jarvis, before you have a subpoena related to your noncompliance with the earlier

promise in which he blamed the department of interior for your noncompliance with what you said you would do and they said they would do in a letter, i would ask that you look at the board, recognize that that's the ranking -- ranking member statement, refresh your memory and please acknowledge receipt of this king of. >> i acknowledge the receipt. >> thank you very much. >> i recognize the gentleman from california, mr. lowenthal. >> thank you, mr. chairman to all of us are here today because we truly care about our national parks and our public lands. and help at all of us here really of your because we want to ensure that these treasures are fully supported and received budgets and the attention that they deserve. ..

in order to put these numbers work to what numbers unsustainable economic benefits let's talk about one part that is in my district, not in my district, in my state, that is in yosemite. in 2011 there were three million, actually almost four million recreational visits to yosemite and they spend a cumulative $4,379,000,000, money that was injected into the local economy and supported local jobs

and overall in 2011 over $30 billion was economic activity so i am really glad to hear the national parks need to be recognized and applauded by many members of congress, to a sustainable benefit they provided. and i saw the heading today about as difficult as possible and i imagine we would be talking about how do we look to better support the budget slide. and many constituents as difficult as possible, and short plans over the last three years since the 1 twelfthcongress national park service, and been able to handle almost $11 billion, maintenance backlog and because of decreasing

budgets, to cover seasonal employees, we heard about educational programs that have been canceled, limited environmental monitoring. i will read and ask a question from a letter from 300 businesses buddies irresponsible cuts over the last three years. and support the equipment, motels, gas stations and small businesses that provide services to national parks, visitors. business and livelihood and families depend on keeping national parks in good condition, watching the political jockeying in washington, far we are worried about the impact our business. national park budget would be penny wise and pound foolish. our families and communities and national economy will suffer without much fiscal benefit to the federal budget.

mr. chairman, i ask unanimous consent to place this letter into the record. >> without objection. >> we want to find out how we can productively spent our time investigating. the question that i have to jonathan jarvis, do you think i am right that in order to ensure public safety and national parks and manage the site saw during the shutdown of the federal government, i think you already touched on this, due to limited staff, is it not true that these closures are not site specific or rain that any individual group? >> they are not aimed at any individual or group, they are not political, they are part of our responsibility to protect these places for future generations for appropriations. >> and the piecemeal approach to

opening national parks. do you think this is appropriate for any other of our agencies? should the department of defense only open army bases but not navy bases for instance? should fda inspects dairy products but not meat products? >> i believe the entire federal government should be funded. this piecemeal approach we have taken within the national park system to open the state, where the states have been able to enter into agreement leaves a lot of parks closed. >> finally the cuts made on sequestration, limited budget flexibility within the park service? >> absolutely. they were across the board ending every budgetary items so the impact in every part in the system. >> i yield back my time. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from florida. >> jonathan jarvis, the abraham lincoln home in springfield under your jurisdiction,

national park service? and do you know is it just the home? my understanding is the area around it would also be under the jurisdiction do you know if that is the case? >> i do not know specifically in that regard. >> i saw news reports about a political congressional candidate holding a news conference right in front of the home and if in fact that was an area that was under your jurisdiction that was closed would that have been an appropriate thing to of done, to stage a media event for partisan political purposes? >> i don't know anything about that incident and i would have to look into it. >> if the park was closed would it be -- would there be an exception where political candidate would be able to stage a media event close to the rest of the public? >> the park is closed for all events. >> i have been running around, don't know if you evaporated but the anti deficiency, can you

articulate for me why you think that act forced you to direct a barricade at the world war ii memorial? >> the anti deficiency act as applied to the national park service required us to reduce expenditures. we don't have any funding. limited only to life and property, life and property, people who can do voluntary service. they are showing up to serve, not getting paid right now because there is no appropriations so those other people on that nexus and so we literally went through employee by employee and to determine whether or not they were accepted from the furlough. anybody that was accepted had to meet this standard of life and property and that is about 3,000 out of the entire 24,000. >> that is one part of the entire deficiency act and also the case you are not able to obligate the government for

expenses that have not been appropriated. so my question, i saw the photos of the people operating this big crane to bring all these barricades out to the world war ii memorial and a lot of my constituents were like that will cost more time endeavored to do that than if they left it as an open-air memorial so how were you able to obligate the park service to incur the expense of having a crane or other people out there erecting it if in fact you are operating according to the anti deficiency act? >> the memorials are property. they stand for big ideas that they are physical properties that i have a responsibility to maintain and protect. we get hundreds of thousands in the national mall every day, every weekend they have an impact. there is this overlying the assumption that i continually hear in this committee that these places take care of

themselves. as the 40 year veteran, they require maintenance and operation. >> the question is where did you get the authorities, you said a prohibits you from doing things but it seemed to me you had to dedicate more resources by getting -- for example when you had the forklift bringing out did you have to rent that or how were you able to obtain that? >> i have no idea whether it was rented or one of our own but in order to execute the -- >> wouldn't-matter, in other words you are saying anti deficiency, you can spend money that hasn't been obligated. you have to go out and rent equipment. would that be consistent with that or not? i am trying to figure out how you interpret this. >> at a generic level if i needed a piece of equipment in order to ensure something is protected, a piece of property or life i would have the authority to do that. >> it gives you flexible body to deuce essential functions. very good.

thank you for that. no more questions. >> will the gentleman yield to me? i just want to make an observation having listened to the give and take on both sides of the aisle but particularly want to bring up something mr. whitman had exchange with jonathan jarvis and his line of questioning was along the lines where preplanning, something to that effect. your observation was, and i wrote it down after you said that, you didn't think the shutdown would last this long. it struck me, if that was your response, does not logic suggests that if you are going to eric you are not going to air on the most extreme position? the most extreme position was to shut things down. you don't think it was going to last this long it seems to me would say let's face into the point where you have to follow the law but it seemed to me from

my perspective it's seems to me that your actions were causing the most pain. if infected in think it would last that long it seems to me it should have gone the other way. i want to make that point in connection with what you and mr. whitman had in that exchange. the chair recognizes the gentleman from massachusetts. >> i want to thank all the witnesses for being here this morning and saying as long as you have and being so patient. jonathan jarvis, your patience takes a surprise here today. on that i thank you for your service. the agency has always done wonderful things, denis galvin. it must be fairly obvious now to most people watching that this hearing is a distraction. unfortunately, this distracts

people who have responsibility, congress is monolithic and everybody is to blame but there are not two wrongs and two wrights, there's one wrong and one right and i hope people have taken a 6101 class, to make that distinction. earlier you were questioned, jonathan jarvis, the people's land. the people's land, you obviously rightly said it was the people's land and you are entrusted with its care. this is the people's government and the united states congress trusted with operating for the benefit of the people and with our system in the house of representatives when it is majority the majority's entrusted with making governance work and making sure it goes forward and that has been not the case here. there has been plenty of drama, drama at the barricades to distract from the fact the majority has and what the government work, up barricades claiming world war ii veterans couldn't see memorials when that is not the case and they are going in and seeing it.

the challenge here for the majority is to make the system work and they can do something of significance right now. if they want to open the government that governments provides, they can have a simple vote to have a continuing resolution to allow spending at the low level the majority wanted for period of time until all the budget issues between the house and senate are resolved. that will bring the matter to a close and procedural aspect to it, on the floor right now. all the democrats are assigned so we get 17 to 24 get down and sign it and having all the drama at one of the sites having the hearing on that basis. and veteran that seeking jobs. all of them have services they

need. and whether or not park service's, all others might want to be done. and then we tried to not to do the right thing by the law and in hindsight maybe you wouldn't do something. the history lesson is to tell people, and the budget. but generally there is a conference committee that iron out those differences before the next year begins. despite repeated requests, the majority in the house go to those conferences and work out matters they wouldn't do it so when the fiscal year ended before we start the next one they didn't have a budget. the normal course of business is for people to agree to some amount of money and level of spending for a period of time until the senate and house can work out those differences. that is the dispute.

what level of money will be spent over what period of time while those differences are worked out. all of the democrats said they would take a low number the majority of the house of republicans look forward to. the answer they got back was no, they wouldn't let it happen now and less certain laws they didn't like were nullified the laws that have been passed, laws which elections were the focus of it, laws of the constitution, and the supreme court. that is the failure year, failure of the majority to govern, to keep the government open and make sure it works for the people. it is not congress. a lot of people in congress are working hard, understand we have differences on what costs are and how much to spend and understand the importance of functions government provides so hopefully we will get back to that. hopefully today there will be a vote and we will get back to negotiations and we can talk about whether or not the visitor center will be open, 220,000

people coming this month alone to visit $25 million of revenue. and make sure they have that support or whether a young woman in my district whose daughter had brain cancer situation where four hours once a week or once a month she has treatments. whether there will be money in the budget to make sure those treatments continue. whether or not the university and industries will have to finance cutting edge research to make sure we have energy, technology, manufacturing, biotechnology, all of those things that are needed to keep us on the edge and world leaders and create jobs. whether or not trillions of dollars of transportation infrastructure, bridges and roads that need to be addressed will be done. all of these things where we ought to be going, that is where leadership is and being in the majority means and 2007-2010 when there was a democratic majority was the most productive congress since 1964. being a majority matters. >> that is when he ran the table on one side past obama care.

>> the time of the gentleman has expired. the chair recognizes the gentleman from missouri, mr. smith. >> my question is for the director. i come from southeast missouri, we have the ozark national scenic river ways. very important the heart of my district and important to myself. unfortunately on october 1st the rivers were closed and people were able to float as long as they never touch the gravel bars. it was illegal to touch the gravel bars because that was federal land and that was the decision you made. i am glad the administration decided to open up some of the national parks by local state governments, funding it. unfortunately they are funding it. where i have a problem, how did you pick and choose which ones were acceptable. i have a letter right here from

the missouri department of conservation where we asked 9 days ago to allow them to open the ozark national river ways, yet we have not received a response from your department and i want to know why we have not received a response. >> there are couple reasons. one is i normally have a large staff, there are nine employees in my office and there is a stack of respondents and we are working with the governor of missouri. i understand areas interest in using one of our agreements to open ozark as well as the arch and we are wide open to doing that. that letter if i remember, which i believe i have seen but i am not positive, did not suggest

paying the national park service to open the ozark. it suggested that the department would open it for us and the standard we have said throughout the national park system is these are national assets to be managed by the national park service and so we have rejected offers from a variety of institutions and organizations to open portions of parks with their own people and we do not feel that is appropriate. congress has charged the national park service with managing these assets and we believe we have set up an agreement that can work with the state of missouri. >> that concerns me, the statements, in 1964 these were state parks and it became the first ozark national scenic roadway. cote reason it was sold in 1964 to make this the national park is this land would be protected and preserved and open to the public and that is exactly the

opposite of what you have done the last 16 days. you have basically barricaded the park, barricaded the businesses that rely on canoeing and floating along that river. they have closed down. speaking of something else back in august we had an issue on the same river where the national park service had a regulation, proposal that came out of there, there had to be a special permit for a local churches to be baptized. in the current -- they did not have to have special use permits to get drunk on the river or do any other activity but to get baptized they have a special use permit. those kinds of regulations you are forcing on the people in my district are unacceptable. we do not appreciate it and i am glad the local park superintendent did recent that rule but the fact that the rule was ever in place is

unacceptable and i urge every one of my colleagues to monitor and watch these crazy regulations that come from every department whether it is the national park service or whether it is the irs. they are all unacceptable. thank you, mr. chairman. >> will the gentleman yield? >> i do. >> i just want to understand something, director. in preparation for this shutdown you have a full staff. is that correct? >> that is correct. >> in preparation for this shutdown you could have in fact worked with all of these stakeholders including send them the guidelines so that if the gentleman from missouri is correct and you are correct they would have known what the rules are. if you didn't do that before hand have you done it since the shutdown? have you told various states what they would have to do in order to pass yourself determined litmus test?

there is no statute that says we have to rehire your people. there is simply a decision you made. have you communicated that to all the states so that you would know? >> we have not called every governor but we had a press release to allow the public to know, the governors to know. >> you communicated with the state's in which sovereign states in which the national parks are located through a press release after the fact. i am deeply disappointed. the gentlelady from new york is recognized. >> i would venture to say that our parks department should be opened, serving the public, not preparing memos about a shutdown. shutdown is a self-imposed injury, a self manufactured crisis that we should not have to suffer through. we should put a clean budget on the floor and open up the

government. instead of hearing as we have all day stories about the suffering of individuals and communities and businesses during the 16 day shutdown of the federal government. this is a self-imposed injury. we can correct its e immediately by going down to the floor in 10 minutes, and voting for it. i am really shocked to hear so many of my colleagues testify today how disturbed and shocked they are at the consequences of a government shutdown, of the problems closing our national parks are causing across this country. they need only to look at the 1995 closing of the government to see the reports on what happened and the republican-led closing of the government. the interior department back

then estimated for each day that our parks were closed, localities lost roughly $14 million in tourism business. i know from my own district in new york city that the closing of one of our most important monuments, the symbol of our democracy and freedom, liberty park, the statue of liberty, not only is a huge blow to our economy of the city but to the morale of our city. so much of a blow that our governor, governor cuomo has taken the unprecedented step of using state dollars to open up our national monument so that business can continue as usual. the economic numbers coming from the national park service for 2,011 show that this is a very wise decision because of roughly four million people year visit liberty park, the statue of

liberty, generating well over $170 million in economic activity. not only is it disruptive to our veterans and our citizens, it is clear that our parks are important economic resource for local communities. we are now still in a very fragile economy. i would venture to say that the direction of this conversation today should have been on getting a clean vote on a clean budget so that we can open up our parks, open up our agencies and businesses and individuals will not continue to suffer. i am really concerned, mr. chairman, this congress does not act later today to raise the debt ceiling. the consequences and long term damage to the economy and prestige of our country would be

dire. recently the joint economic committee released a report entitled economic costs of debt ceiling brinkmanship. in it, they compared what happened in 2011 to the consequences of this brinkmanship, the stock market fell, all the markets fell, consumer confidence dropped, the united states's credit rating was downgraded and we know from press reports today that they are considering downgrading our credit rating today on the basis that we cannot govern, we cannot even open up our government. at our hearings in this joint economic committee, chairman ben bernanke and other economists testified that the failure to raise the debt limit would have very serious consequences for the financial markets and the overall economy for a long time

to come. moody's testified for every three weeks the gross domestic product of our economy, our overall economy would be reduced by an 1.4 percentage points. and major allies of ours are calling that the dollar shall no longer be used as reserve currency. that would be a major blow to the strength and economic prosperity of our country so the government shut down and the threat to the u.s. economy has happened because some have decided that is what they want to do and they are holding the entire economy and the entire government hostage. back to the topic -- >> the gentlelady's time has expired. i am willing to give you a pending question but there wasn't the pending question. we go to the gentlelady from california. >> thank you, mr. chairman and

jonathan jarvis. thanks for the work you do on behalf of the american system. i do associate myself with the remarks of members of congress on this side of the aisle, mr. huffman and mr. carter right. you are responsible for the protection of water supply. that is one of my areas because 50 years of natural resources, that is really critical for me. for feeding of the federal dams on the colorado river and other areas, especially glen canyon and hoover, you previously found and then addressing the expansion of invasive species, the hydropower resources and water divergence with the shutdown, we are listening to the federal energy and water resources which is costing us nationwide millions of dollars to clean up the intake in the

pumping areas. is this covered under the property, emergency response area? >> thank you for bringing this up. one of our concerns and the reason we gave and closed glen canyon and the lake mead recreational facilities, during the recreational boating, and can be contaminated with muscles and we have watched stations and inspection stations both for the private matters and concession. all of those are furloughed and all of that is shed down. >> would you also include several other water entities were found to be infected? >> yes, ma'am. there are concerns about it spreading to other water bodies throughout the west. >> they're very hard to control? >> once they get in it is almost impossible to get them out. does that in any way or form,

can it be treated as property that has to be protected? >> the way we're treated and disclosure act is to prevent boats from leaving or entering lake mead or glenn cannon during the shutdown. >> one of the areas that hasn't been covered since i have been in the hearing today is you already have an $11 billion backlog in maintenance and repair. what will be the cost of trying to catch up based on the sequestered? >> we need $750 million a year in maintenance and operation budget in order to break-even. to maintain what we have. we would need more often that ticket. >> does that include vandalism or normal clean up for both? >> it is all of the above.

its impact from deterioration of old facilities and roads as well as some vandalism. >> thank you. i heard you mention or some of the testimony that you are not able to receive funding, you have to have special m o as. >> we can receive private funding but through agreements. >> they have to be reestablished. >> no. there's private funding flowing through some of the state's to the national park service to reopen. >> but not all of them are party to this. >> all of? >> the state. >> so far we only have six states that signed agreements. >> are you preparing them to bring the other states on line should something, and as you heard there may be other sequesters in the future, to be prepared, to protect those private lands? >> we have