in particular for the first week of the shut down were effected and that significantly diminished our ability operate across the department in all key area whether it was acquisition, personal readiness, training, et, et. there are also unexpected ways for the shut down impacts, for example, the inability to make cash expenditure could be fine as far as if you're thinking about cash expenditure entertain -- for example that could be set to the side temporarily. when it comes to aircraft who are paying fees of various kinds whether it's refueling and overseas locations and unto be expend cash that is just a small example of a limitation imposed by the shut down.

most fundamentally is the absence of understanding for fiscal 2014 what our planning levels are to work with. it impedes on the long emerging term business -- in somalia what title x dod resources and title ii will be available to brought to bear whether it's somalia or any other country in the region. >> i would just add to this. we are in a critical time as we move toward these important milestones that will be critical for seizing the moment and helping somalia move forward. it's an effort that the united states is doing in close partnership with the international community. there are a number of important meetings as well as that we are constrained in being able to participate in right now.

>> several of you mention that the particular structure amazon in some ways a model of african-lead regional security being successful. i would be interested in each your respective sphere. sort of how you see the model playing out going forward. what are the lessons learned strength, weaknesses. i have represented in a number of soil and water assessment tool of the making possible development improved security. improved state craft overall, frankly, it's got very little attention in the domestic u.s. press what you see is the

lessons learned. strengths, weaknesses what we should be expected going forward for the amazon mission. each of you. >> thank you very much for that question. i do think the amazon model is a model that can be used. some of the lessons, as i look back on this in my limited time in this office, but greater experience on the continent is, i think we have to do a better job of ensuring that we provide the support that amazon needs to do its job. i met when i was in new york with the foreign minister from uganda. we have at people put on the ground, but we still need the support to move those people around. we need the enablers. and we -- because of our budget cycles and how we budget we're not always

able to provide them with that support as early as they need that support. we also want to be able to continue to support them and each year because of our funding cycles, sometimes there's a delay in when we can get our support out to them. you talk about how we might use the model. i was in mali and similar model was used. it was short term. in less than 18 month we were able to bring the country back to a democratic country moving forward. because of an african-lead process supported by us. thank you. >> and what sort of lessons might we learn about the stablization and the transfer of security function from amazon to the somali national forces? assistant secretary? >> the -- i think as we look at the success of amazon and their many successes associated with it,

one of the challenges is just to be pulling together all of the external supporters with all of the different colis as a willing the troop contributing country who step up and answer the call. and it just managing across the complexity is one of the biggest challenges and can make things slower and less efficient than otherwise would be the case. i do think you're seeing rep indication of some model, another model and other locations because it is successful whether it's the encountering the lord's resistance army. you have u.s. and others enabling regional partners taking the lead to pursue the lord's resistance army, similar model in the mali context. you have regional forces. first in the configuration and now in the u.n. mission that are being supported by external parties as well. i think the rep indication is an indicater of the success. our part is really bringing the

targeted training capacity and bringing in enablers as assistant secretary referred to. sometimes that can be quite challenging especially in the area of logistic which is the true shortfall when you look across the many different missions on the african continent. those at the -- logistics capability of africa partner them and the tools with which we're able to support them. thank you. >> building on-air lift capacity. age long-term goal we all share. it if i might in conclusion, how do you see amazon's success in term of stablization and security contributing to the development picture in you mentioned in your testimony in they instrike mr. wilson intertwine. >> absolutely. somalia is a perfect example how one needs security for development. how develop leads to greater

security. as we don't push our development programs in to south central somalia, the opportunity is to help citizens gain greater confidence in both local and central governing structures and to receive the services that are absolutely essential for their well being and for their support for the way forward. this is supported by greater security. so it's a hand- in-hand proposition that going forward will be important we're able to realize the gains from both security and development working together for peace and process territorial-type -- prosperity. >> thank you. thank you, automatic. continuing on amazon, i was looking at the map. it was pretty small can you

explain how far out of mooing -- mooing mooing mooing key through amazon or the security forces. >> right. what amazon has succeeded in doing essentially is taking away the revenue aspect of al-shabaab that were related to the core operations in mooing mooing -- mooing key shoe -- that was a critical step taken in term of weakening their sustainment capabilities.

maintain and controlled by amazon. it's clear their remains additional territory available to alsha bob as a sanction ware. that's really the work ahead with amazon and with the somalia national army to don't pressure al-shabaab so they continue to fracture and displace from the locations that currently opening. such as we saw over the weekend was is a current note for al-shabaab. is amazon engaging in in insurgency or just security forces? >> amazon is pursuing al-shabaab directly alongside the somali national security services. they are enabling one another at various times. one takes the lead or the other

takes the lead. the vast majority of operations they are operating together. >> in 2010 they. ed to change the role from amazon to peace keeping from peace enforcement. it was objected to by the united nations. does that matter? i think that refers to the rule of engagement they are operating under. and amazon, at this point, is operating with robust engagement. they are not a deafennive force. they are an offensive force. they are making peace. the transition happening quickly enough in term of turning over security functioning to the countries security forces? the ability of the somali national army to actually take over is quite constrained at

this point. the somali national army is about 17,000 strong at this point based on the count from their chief of defense. but of that force, many militia forces. many have not been. they are been trained by a variety of forces. -- i think we would forecast that it will be a period of time before the s and a is ready to step up and take over the mission currently performed by amazon. >> you are talking about the government there. you mentioned that the part of the democratically elected as well as the president part is a different --

more of an appointment there by triable helders or then the president is elect bid the peace. how much of an election is it for the parliament and how much legitimacy do they have going forward? this was something i said -- there was some criticism, i think the economist wrote a year or so ago that so. slots were going for about $25,000. there was some corruption alleged. can you talk about that and has going forward. there has been challenging of corruption in somalia through the years. the importance is the commitment of the current government to move beyond that as they look at the list of ben mark with the election, the constitution over the next several month. the 36-month time table.

there is historically a great deal of factionalism within somalia that will be important to have the kind of inclusive dialogue over the next 36 months to find a way forward that enables that kind of participation in the solution. there is -- this is the one of the best opportunities that somalia has had in two decades with an inclusive process and that kind of planning will have to continue where you bring in regional entities and you bring in a lot of the local governments that have been critical for holding communities together over the last several decade. but now need to come together under an umbrella of the central government or a fed rated government. >> the president was elected by the pardon -- parliament. the parliament was elected or appointed? >> it was selected by the

assembly process. then they, yes, they selected the president. >> right. >> and as we gear forward the 2016 presidential elections. >> great. back to security environment, the raid that occurred last weekend, nobody faults i guess it was not scecial. -- successful. we didn't get our target there. i'm sure they made the right decision. how does that affect our policy going forward? what challenges does that present to us to have another failed raid in a country? is that em bolden al-shabaab? what happens moving ahead? >> from my perspective, the taking direct action is one element of multifaceted approach taken via al-shabaab and the

circumstance under which it's pursued or outlined by the president? his national defense university speech they are selected cases where that would be pursued. i think more importantly though is that indirect approach and the three major pieces of that. we talked about two of them in particular. one is continuing to support amazon and the activity against al-shabaab. the second work with somali national security services and their ability to develop an effective counterterrorism capability going forward. and the third that we haven't really touched on yet is the work we're doing with the other partners in the region on a bilateral basis whether it's directly with the ken begans, directly with the ethiopian, jew began -- uganda. all of them have faced various threat from al-shabaab based on

their willingness to participate in amazon. so a key part of the strategy is also the continued support to those bilateral partners in the region. >> thank you. >> thank you, senator mccain. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i thank the witnesses. the story -- the operation in somali -- it's my understanding published reports that they didn't go forward with the mission because there was greater resistance than they had anticipated. is that aned an accurate media depiction? what happened. >> tounge discuss the operational detail we would have to move to a different setting.

>> could you say whether the media rorgt was accurate or inaccurate? >> i think to get in to the operational details of a confirm or not confirmed the media reporting would require us to move to a different setting. >> so i guess what you're saying is that we have to have information in a secure setting. but it's okay if the media report event and yet you can either corroborate or deny those events, is that correct? >> that's correct, in this setting. >> don't be surprised during the skepticism here about the activities you engage in. the fact it was an failure. otherwise the issue would have been completed. i guess maybe in a, quote, the other setting. "the new york times" or "the

washington post will find out why it failed. given last week's operation was justified under the aumf, which we understand from the state of the union speech. president obama speaks to repeal. how will groups like al-shabaab be targeted and will these types of operations be justified in the future absent -- enabling the regional partners whether it's somali directly. whether it's the regional players who are willing to participate in amazon with true contributing countries or others on a by lateral basis it will

continue to be a core element of the strategy in term of countering the activity. and disrupting the al-shabaab? >> absent and aumf, would this operation have been legal? senator, i'm not prepared with the legal analysis today. i can come back to you with a response on that. i don't have an independent -- to compliment the analysis. miss thomas, linda thomas greenfield, in somalia, it's my

understanding that most of the work is being done by private contractors. is that true? >> we do have private contractors assisting us in smolt ya. we're using a mixture of that as well as direct support to our amazon and other strategic partners such as the ethiopian. we also work very, very closely with africa and have some of a come support there. >> does it mean you have american troops troops in somalia? >> no , sir, we do not have troops. we have an adviser work with the somali government. we work with the somali national military outside of somalia in doing training. and we also occasionally send people in to do training with them. >> now you maintain oversight of

what the contractors are doing if there is no american military there? >> we send people in on a regular basis to monitor when we're able to travel when security allows us to travel inside. that's part of the issue we are. we're not able to travel on a regular basis. when we are able to travel we are able to do that kind of monitoring. we also work and monitor them through the operations in nairobi. >> these contractors are often operating in what is effectively a combat zone, would you agree? >> occasionally it is a combat zone. >> you spoke about the goal of normal -- military relationship with

somalia could you describe what it would look like? >> what i would hope for, it was -- talk about the military relationship it is my hope that we once the security situation there is enabling, that we would have our military doing regular programs through the same kind of programs that we do elsewhere in at can. that provide direct training and support somali military. one of our primary goal is to build professional army there is that is to be provide security and has is professional and have the capacity to respond al-shabaab. >> on what ground did we decide to send contractors in as oppose to the military in? was it the threat? was it contractors do a better

job? what was guided that decision? >> we do a mix. we have always had contractors who supported our efforts but in some places we have military it's not. it's not a decision we only use contractors. i think contractors were shrimp leer for us to use on the occasion. security situation that guide your decision whether to send them in. i imagine it was a security situation in that to keep them out. i thank the witnesses. >> thank you. senator referred and a number of us discuss. there have been development in the region in kenya and somalia, with i think call for a classified briefing. particularly on the attack in

nairobi and the intelligence gathered from there and the regional implications. i welcome the opportunity does the timing in which it might be possible. my colleague from -- >> i would just say i'm sure that the chairman understands the frustration when we read things in the media that are believed to be factual and we don't can't find out in open session whether it's true or not. i think the american people probably deserve to know if it's carried in the media. >> i suspect we broadly share frustration about many of the things in the media. not automatic of whichability. but i do think at the outset of the hearing i express my gratitude to the witnesses for ability to come today given the impact of the shut down on departmental resources, legal advice, preparation and otherwise. i think it's appropriate for us to continue some of this line of dialogue in a classified setting for we could as soon as

possible. if i might, assistant administrator. the u.s. aid has run programming designed to -- within somalia. could you say something about the small scale or local or quick impact project i believe have been the -- of the ongoing effort in the areas secured through amazon efforts to try to stabilize the situation. and lay the ground work for more long-term development. >> yes. you characterize that exactly right. there is an opportunity to show quick wins to some of the communities where

working to both provide secondary education opportunities as well as economic options and way for them to participate in civic life. we think this is absolutely critical especially for those group. and with your permission, i wanted to just clarify senator flake's question about the democratic election of the president and the a-- assembly. the constituent assembly was formed and they then elected the president. somalia is not able to have the kind of lebs we think about in

the country. that's a part of the big effort over the next several years is to provide the -- the voter registration they're not e qipted to do right now. there's a difference between democratically elected and elected through representative voting. that i want to use a moment to clarify. >> i was taken a bit aback when you said democratically elected early on. more like selected. i agree we're not at the point where we can expect anything else. but we can't lead people to believe we have an democratically elected government there. >> it wasn't the every voter through the country, but a cross section in the constituent assembly which provided a legitimate government to enable us through the important period at the same time we're working at the community level to enable those gains to be realized. >> the overarching goal of the 12016 process is to ultimately goat a place where real --

legitimate national election is possible. >> that's right. that's absolutely correct. with the constitution. it's the process of drafting the constitution and enabling a process of reconciliation and a more inclusive dialogue including, by the way, the dies a pray which is a important player in this. to the functioning democracy is mart of the objectivity hearing. you have come back from the new deal conference. i would be interesting in hearing a little more detail mow the international community is coordinating in support for this ongoing transition in somalia and what you see as our royal in the international community role and how well coordinated it is toward the goal we've been discussing. >> i think it's an essential opportunity, because it enables the international donor community to come together in a coordinated way and support a plan and frame work that is

owned by the somalis. with the key priority laid out. we are able to work together and there are conversations vigorous conversations with the u.k., with sweden, and our other development partners. on how to ensure that our support equals and aligns behind the key priority. so there is also a timing urgency here that is in the moment where there's a thrush of confidence and a sense of possibility that we step forward in a coherent manner that movers us forward against a very ambitious time table. so important -- as they call the golden hour of possibility and enable the confidence to turn to real results. >> thank you. miami assistant secretary, if i might. what is our overall strategy

helping better understand it to simultaneously strengthen ongoing somali lead effort to help centralized institutions and a coordinated federal system given clan base power centers and some recent ad hoc effort to form central state my impression from the opening testimony. you think there is steady process toward both. there's tension whether there's a -- federalized structure what do you see as strategy in the path forward in the particular port of the process? >> our primary goal there will be a strong federal frame work that will allow various components and various groups outside the central government it participate in a process of governing the entire country of somalia. we need a central government that can provide services and can lead and develop the policy and strategies going forward.

but that government has to recognize the component outside of the central government. we have encouraged federal frame work. we have encouraged the government to be in close coordination and coordination with somali land. we were supportive of the agreement and we're engowrnling further agreement along the line. the president of somalia has expressed his views that he's prepared to move forward in the direction. we're backing him in those efforts. >> thank you very much, senator flake. >> you mentioned 140 million democracy activity. can you further detail where that's going? and who is administrating that?

go ahead. >> yes. >> i think you mentioned the figure $140 million; right? >> that was going to our effort to support the capacity of the somali national army pane supporting training for that. but also building democratic institutions that are being worked with u.s.a. aid. but the $140 million i referred to, i think directly to our efforts with the army. >> okay. can you further deal the economic growth activity? that is working some of the details we detailed to help set up the constitution to help support the move toward

elections. that also includes work in somali land with those governments to continue to support the very important advances they've already made on democratic approaches, transparency, accountability, and align their policy with the federal government and includes a lot of work on setting up the independent election commission and electorial law the mechanics to make gains we need in the next 46 month. >> turning somali land. you make it sound as if they are okay with the arrangement is that it's not the sense i have received from them. they want to be recognized on their own. can you kind of explain the difference here? >> yeah. and that's since we have gotten

this as well. they are worked to develop and stabilize the area under their control. but we are following in the lead of the au. we have not recognized them as separate governments, and this time because they have not knead recognition. we continue to support their effort to provide the security and services to the people that they are currently supporting. >> you mentioned some of the funding is actually going somali to help them. it what is their understanding as to what they're to do with the money. the establishing their place in a federal system. it sounds to me, with you talk to them, say that a completely different idea where they're going. what is your understand? >> as i indicated, there is continued help particularly to support the accountability and transparency they could quite

appropriately have made gains with. and at the same time we are going it in a way that expressly indicates the goal of having that align with the central government in a fed rated system. >> do you accept that? >> there are conversations ongoing. [laughter] all right adjust general observation. go ahead and stop. we all know it's tough work. it's a tough environment. when you have basically a lawless situation with no central government for twenty years. nobody can expect for it to immediately transform to some flour riching democracy. we understand that here. but i get the sense from the testimony that painting a little

rosier picture than it exists there. i'm not sure it does us any good for those who authorize and appropriate money to sustain programs. i'll be interested in the next panel to see their thoughts on that. but just let you know, we recognize it's tough. it's going rocky road. it doesn't do us any good to go us over difficulties -- gloss over difficulty. my suspicious is that, you know, the government they're trying. we want them to succeed. we recognize them. they are largely large soil and water assessment tool of the country that don't recognize the government as a legitimate and we need recognize that and move forward. and but it's tough road. i know, we're doing the bed we can. but it's likely a more difficult situation than perhaps we are told. i thank you. >> thank you, senator flake.

senator, mccain >> for the panel, if i might. we have another whole another panel we hope come to some conclusion in the hearing. i want to thank you for your testimony and the hard work. there has been significant progress made in somalia real toif where it was two years ago. a lawless, state characterized by the wide spread priority sincerity humanitarian crisis in the utter absence of the functioning federal government. great progress has been made but significant challenges remain. i look forward to working with you closely as we articulate together a coherent u.s. strategy moving forward to take advantage of the opportunity. thank you, i would like to invite our second panel to take place in front of the committee. [inaudible conversations]

i would like to welcome our second panel tea today. crisis group. i would like to invite each of do you turn to the make the opening statement if you might to the committee. >> thank you, senator. and member of the subcommittee. t an honor to appear before you today. ly focus any remarking on status of al-shabaab and international effort to defeat the group.

i would be grate if my written statement could be included. it's been weakened retain the capability to conduct a targeted terrorist attack against many interests. this was vividly demonstrated in september when linked gunmen stormed the west gate shopping complex killing innocent civilian. without additional efforts it's only a matter of time before the group and the affiliates undertake additional deadly attack. they -- it's controlled much of south central somali since 2006. nay formed with a -- then -- seized neighboring town. in 2012 ethiopia and kenya worked with them to liberate the towns. in central somalia clan leaders

and local administration also mobilized to resist the movement. in response to the military superiority of ethiopia. -- instead the group has shifted the forces to "safe haven" that lie just outside of the reach. example include broadway and lower -- and the mountains from these locations, the employees intelligence wings to launch hit-and-run attack and place ied. at the same time the regional governors are essential component of the networking. they maintain the control over the local pop little. allow terrorist training camps to operate, raise funds through taxes and exattorneys, conduct recruitment. as the west gate attack shows they retain a significant external operation capability.

these individuals including both somali and foreign inviters are only loosely under the control. they are dedicated to exporting terrorism across east africa, and work closely with affiliates such as many groups. since becoming the group's leader, he personalized command and control and marginalized senior leaders who disagree with his decisions. long standing tensions between him and the deputy broke in to open violence in june of 2013. many able liberalizeds hoped the internal conflict would weaken it. it's not the case. for several years, he has been building a splinter faction. and taking kroft of the group's funding and operational planning. the long-term strategy remains a matter debate. the group may be playing a waiting game. retreating from large battle to preserve the strength and using terror attack to stay relevant as long as possible.

t hoped that it will change allowing al-shabaab to resurge. it would be the case if the somali government fails if shall baseball can align with plant-base opposition group or new regional crises force the contributing countries to depart from somalia. he and i had hard line supporters have no illusion they can impose a extremist state if they continue to make the progress they have done and the somali federal government works to stabilize the area. in this case, the group may be satisfied managing a clan clan delawares -- for as long as possible. to conclude, although it has indeed lost control of the key city, the group recalibrated the approach and remain efficient enemy. united and the somali and international partner need to redoubler to the roll back the group while supporting the federal government to consolidate security gains. it requires a questioning of effort. first, we must revive the

regional defense including increased operational and intelligence support for amazon and ethiopia. second, it is critical to develop a capable and professional national security structure in somalia it can fight side by side with the regional partners. third, additional diplomacy and foreign aid are needed pot-friendly -- support the -- with which it's working to oppose it and build central structure. they need to negotiate power and resource sharing deal that i low the federal structure to funk. finally, we must continue sporgt the neighbor. particularly kenya where the takes took place. but also tanzania and other countries serve as hosts as al-shabaab affiliated movement. thank you again for the opportunity to testify. and i look forward to your questions. >> thank you very much. we look forward to the opportunity to ask questions.

thank you fur the opportunity to participate in the important panel. one year after the formation of the -- there are reasons to be cautiously optimistic. the somali people are determined more than ever to reclaim the dignity and above all their place among the community nations. they are identified a common enemy to peace and stability. citizens across the country are countering the destruction with hope. signs of economic vibrant sincerity of emerging. bringing with them the much-needed skill and wiz opportunity and most importantly a sense of normal -- normalcy. to the people of somalia. significant part of somalia's -- [inaudible] are also enjoying relative peace, stability, and govern mans. with regard to the security

gains, with regards to the security gains are less encouraging. the fighters remain a threat to peace. the chronic weaknd of security. command, control, and -- form the security forces. the force does not reflect the regional and diversity of the somali people.

that has the qualititive and quantityive advantage over the enemy. they have done an excellent job of regions. but they cannot become a substitute for the forces. somali forces can ultimate lo default al-shabaab. the governments have failed to translate the federal vision. frustrated with a lack of progress at the national level community across the country are taking matters in to their own

hands and are carving out -- [inaudible] the american track policy which lead to direct u.s. engagement with the entity sends the long ?alt international community was promoting sectarian policy at the company -- expense of contiguous federal government. -- [inaudible] about the shape the future of the federal government of somalia and divisions power between the center and the -- the meeting of federal schism broadly misunderstood by the smoolly people. many of whom are legitimately nervous. it is compounded by the absence of a effective judicial branch. are yet to be established. it calls for the formation of

nearly dozen independent -- half of which are instrumental toot federation process. these delays are confusable. the federal government garnered and unprecedented support -- [inaudible] following the inauguration in 2012. it won unparallel backing from the international community. monthly direct budget support from turkey and expanded african union peace keeping mission. many somali believe that the federal government has fallen significantly short of using that positive momentum toed a van the policy and dialogue with key domestic actors including existing and emerging federal member states. sometimes help with the

formation of the entity to their own interests. the unchecked interference with destabling the country. this is not impossible. it while it's not impossible it's highly probable given the mag magnitude of taxes ahead. it should remain a goal for the current government. we must not -- [inaudible] for process building elections are not an end in the themselves

taxable property deeply flawed dpowment that contradicts itself -- [inaudible] direct collision portion. they need urgent assistance in this regard. priority must be given to the formation of the review and implementation commission and boundary and federation commission. one established they will lead -- to engage in the national dialogue. there are a number of american institutions with relevant experience that can provide essential support in the area. assistance to the people to the somali government must be contingent possible mcial combine. it must be held accountability to the -- if none of the commission established by early next year the people will lose faith and the government commitment to offer something more than the predecessor. the u.s. and the allies should assist the people to -- hold their government accountable. than will --

[inaudible] and continue to be a powerful force for the program. the role is a civil society is currently absent to hay low the somali people and the government to engage in a national -- interference galvanizes and further divides the community. the ship certainly couldn't to assist both country in mitigating the security threat they face. they realize over a democratic -- on the borders is a greatest guarantee of security and prosperity in the region. mr. chairman, it is a time easy to dismiss it as beinger reparable. but as those of us who have given up their comfortable life

and family and returned home can attest to progress is possible. it made a profund leap from where it was three and a half years ago. at the time al-shabaab controlled 75% of mogadishu and 60% of the entire nation. the very notion of government was actually contested across the country. with the support of international partner like the u.s. and the e.u. and the african union, the u.k. and turkey and others. slowly emerging from the abusiness. what is relentless effort to -- that legitimacy, catch, and resources need finish the mammoth task ahead. i thank you and the subcommittee for the opportunity to present my -- and happy to answer any questions. >> thank you very much. >> thank you, senator.

we frequently travel to countries where we search purpose. conditions in somali have proved -- has with the help of ethiopia the smoacial national army, and various ally clab maliciouses serious strategic set back. somali has a new -- ad billion in support. however, the federal government only has a fact of control of mogadishu in part of the south. shall baseball is down but not out. and elsewhere remains dependent on amazon and will likely for some time to come.

neither amazon nor the government it kim pose a peace and stability is only possible through a nation-wide process of negotiation, power sharing, and improved govern mans. arguably the most intract call issue is a question of federalism. simply put, there remain serious disagreement between those who like to see somalia back strong unitary state, one that stand up to the neighbor and know that of central government will be dominanted bay group of clan as during did the era. torse miss the federal government quickly ran in to trouble on the issue of federalism in southern somalia which was bayser -- neighboring countries have

significant security interest in somalia. beyond it muslim somali is link to the mid east and egypt and turkey are active in the country. in a thought among the state approaching in somalia. however many see as a ploy to keep it weak. facility the return of nearly half a million refugee. it joined amazon but often the own interest. kenya has thrown export and not the federal government. they are looking for an exit but

according to the u.n. monetary group. they are earning money from the trade and more important most kenya wants to control it has large oil and natural gas component. al-shabaab is aggressively trying to turn the local population again what is called christian ken began occupier and the west gate mall attack was an attempt trigger a attack to the end. beyond the regional state they have taken an active interest in somalia. the greater regional interest allow it is to play different state against each other particularly muslim states and ethiopia.

military peace enforcement responsibility. by virtue of having been there for the last four years the fielding of force of over 17,000 troops it's a major political actor.

and insist that the formation of new states adhere to a rule-based process. it should continue to it must be linked to reconciliation to measure to ensure minority clan. currently it's very different to the agencies to develop assistance in insecure areas. congress should support -- managed by the off for transition initiative for symbolic projects in smol imrap congress should also note that the 2016 election is not far away. they are already behind schedule. an election should be quickly funded by donors.

that can feed in to larger regional conferences. it should also provide the new u.n. mission with all the capacity necessary to coordinate assistance effectively. it should insist the federal government does so effectively az well. the state department and dod should also start working with amazon to clearly articulate a exit strategy for intervention in somalia. this should be linked with the incremental support that a creation of a professionallal army.

all region in somalia. in conclusion, somalia remains an extremely weak and fragile state. the security is dependent end on the external sources and sovereignty threatens the far from -- yet it is an at inflection point. the hope of achieving substantial progress is real. if and only if they work together toward the goal and somalis honestly confront the government challenges. i thank you and look forward to your questions. >> thank you. second about federalism all three had interesting comments of the federalists. on the first question, my sense that al-shabaab has been print mr. wilson financed through the trade when they controlled to

continue operations. and what do you see as the most important next steps to strengthen amazon carry out the mission of stabilizing the security of the country to make possible a transition to professional in order. as i mentioned before. the trade it banned by the u.n. security counsel.

and i think that the united states should do more to force his partners to in fact adhere to the prohibitions. i think the reality challenge it's essentially regioned a point where it is -- to the point that it can no longer push farther out and either the international community needs to provide more resources to amazon to increase the true capacity improve the ability to reach out, or i think more needs to be done on thoughts on how we reduce financing to al-shabaab. >> i think we need to know with the financing of al-shabaab is

coming from and the conventional belief it was mostly coming from the cities that control the -- resources. it controls the -- and that is gone i think it seems to be coming through. part of the -- they control considerable amount of land in south central somalia. the answer to that isen attempt to recapture that part of land. i do though in relation to this proim vise the important of creating security forces. i think that's ultimately, you know, where it considerably cheaper than the peace keeping mission which is needed and remarkable. up until this moment but i think syria attempt needs to be made by the somali government but the international -- to try to rebuild professional security sector.

i think the case of iraq and drk afghanistan are both in term of the time frame it can take and also the numbers question need. you have hundreds of thousand of forces. created and forked -- formed. close 300,000 for afghanistan. somalia has 18,000 security. half of which are probably engaged in the vip protection of individuals. clearly has the main tact of al-shabaab.

on what amazon needs to be successful and what we need to further restrict -- transition look like to incredible national somali. charcoal when the movement controls -- it generated revenue by controlling road junction and levying taxes. couldn't operate. now it has lost control but it remains very close by. we can tax the charcoal trade as a source of production rather than a source of on ward distribution. it really is critical. the affords them the opportunity impact any trade that is coming from mogadishu and tax and also

make revenue all the charcoal business. many other cities. so they are stuck using that limit number of force in a static security role. the factorrest way for them to free up and be able to deploy them would be if the somali federal government work with

local administration to actually craft govern mans in the area. global forces particularly national army or other forces provide local security and let amazon take the fight toward al-shabaab. and other spoil leers. in the peace process. there seems to be a tension for the strong national government to be able resist intrusion from ethiopia from kenya metaling by outside forces. on the other hand there's a suspicious of a strong federal or national government. because the strength of clan and the different culture traditions across the country. managing these with a constitution in the current form is significant internal contra dick around what the federal

structure should look like is difficult. it's different from the own art clt of confederation. there are striking similarity where purpose of security taxation, control of port, control of trade is necessary. but there are significant internal concerns that mitigate against a strong federal government. what role should the u.s. government be playing in advancing the federal structure and did our dual track policy actually hurt the process and what do you recommend for u.s. policy with regard to federalism and implementation going forward, if you could, in order? >> thank you, senator. the fact is that the somali federal government is a key actor. it's the key actor going forward in making decisions for the establishment of a true federal

system that actually provides some degree of convergence between the local actors and major towns across somalia's region and the central government. but the smoltly federal government is currently only one actor on the scene. it we're talking about the locations where kenya, ethiopia, other forces are operating. it we're talking about those places where we need to fight al-shabaab, there are other actors of concern. this is the jubilant authority. the authority established. this is clan forces based working very closely ethiopia. it's the an tons mouse regional -- the self-declared independent state of somali land. there are many other local administrations. these are actually fact on the ground. there has been a great deal of concern that the u.s. dual track approach was going reinforce

them and dismember it and make a weaker country. the fact is 20 odds years of civil war decentralized it and made it a weak country. the dual track approach allows the united states to engage both at the capitol level and at the local administration reamingal level at the same time. to promote the agenda of conner have jengs. maybe the language needs to be changed. but the ability to support level simultaneously is what is ultimately required to promote these power sharing and resource sharing deals internally within the town but then between the town and the federal government. >> thank you. t a good question. i think it's important to highlight that some people wherever they are in somalia today want to a federal structure. t unclear in their mind. we're engaging what we found are

the universal demands for basic states in debate on federalism. they want to elect his or her national -- sharing natural resource. they can help and push forward the debate and the frame work of federalism in somalia. what can the u.s. government do? i think the first thing is really the building and formation of the country talk about the indpebs. ultimately. i think what the three commissions can d ultimately. i think what the three commissions can do with expertise from the u.s. institutions that --

lead a national dialogue. what needs happen is a unking of federalism. when we interview people about if they understood operation on federalism and confederation and decentralize -- [inaudible] of power and the options most people do not really understand. it needs to happen alongside the commission. the third contradictory in many ways. it's unrealistic to expect that. we have a clearer pick cher

three years from now. as we know in the united it remains a contentious issue. i would agree with about the -- [inaudible] perhaps we need to recast a driewl track approach as parallel approach. but i think the important point i would make if the money cannot go mooing key alone. it stays there as it is currently mostly doing. all the progress we're doing is largely in mooing mooing key shoe. in places far away. especial why they don't have formal link with the local administration or in hostile

relationships with them as they have been with jubilant and continued to be with jubilant. i think the important people need to recognize it benefits from the disagreement. m it other areas as well waiting to see the political tension come to the floor. >> thank you. thank you for your patience. >> no problem. there was a lot of questions i had paradise valley on federalism. you mentioned you addressed it

just now. you're riverring to the federalism aspect to that? >> t all across. gives the -- [inaudible] the moment or -- [inaudible] can be improved. you mentioned four thing you are expected of out of the central government. it sound me i'm speaking with some of the representatives they don't want to share in the country's resources. they have their own. they want nothing to do with amy

off base there? i think it's -- it has done a remarkable job of destable idessing i.t. and laying the foundation for democratic institution and -- it does, like other this is because of the vacuum with the federal government. i do think that given if a concerted effort has made to clarify the institution and gaunt national dialogue on federalism. i think there's a real opportunity for engagement, you

know, with other emerging and existing program member states. the last panel talk about the government there. and mentioned one point refer to it as democratically elected government. it's not quite that simple. how is it viewed the rest of the country? i know going back to what was '98 or so for the first attempt to appoint assembly of some type and county take -- didn't take. what makes it different here? why is the government going to be viewed as anything different than the last attempt? i think ore i would agree with everyone that were significant

flaws with the election process. that said, i think it was a greater attempt to ensure that at least the majority of the elders at the assembly who picked the -- [inaudible] >> yeah. >> who then selected the president were at least intha more representativive than the past. and certainly wasn't a forfect process. there were a lot of allegations of people buying, rigging, extortion and so forth. i think the focus mostly on the fact that the prime minister and the president who were selected or the president who was elected in the prime minister who was selected were both notably not involved in the civil war this was kind of scene as a bit of a break from the past. and to be honest. the president especially was someone who came from the society and we in the work force in the past who many of us worked with in the past and

excited about the possibility. that doesn't mean the government is perfect. we so it as an improvement on -- [inaudible] how realistic is the 2016 time frame for elections? and we see to have backed a horse now. the government if it doesn't take place what is our position? what do we do? thought there. i think elections are not impossible but highly improbably to take place in 2016. sinned elections we might be looking at another -- by some people. it could be we might have elections in part that are a little more stable than others. but, you know, considering the slow pace of progress in the last year, and the work that needs to be done i would be pleasantly surprised if

elections taxing place in 2016. what are the options after that? >> it it will depend on the stakeholders in somalia want to do in the way farred. not many people are looking forward to the idea of extension. the e word now seen as no one want to hear that. i think there has to be some sort of a selection process that bring the cub, you know, to a next level. i should finally say that the reason why the government is seen as a little bit more hopeful than the previous one is people are seeing this as one step toward a greater goal than the gain made over the years. so part of an incremental process. with regard to the failed raid last week. what are the implications in the

future. does it em bolden the elements we don't want to? what happens what are the practical effect of this? >> [inaudible] >> i think most important recent development in term of strengthening al-shabaab and exacerbating the threat is is the movement poses to a region is the west gate attack. and we shouldn't let the sen sensationalism of the event over the weekend overshadow the tragedy and the precedent that attack set for jihadists both within the east calf are -- africa region. not to undertake a suicide bombing operation that is highly complicated. i do believe that this has send a signal to the al qaeda senior leadership from -- whether or not he was the actual

author of the operation it sent a signal al-shabaab is and affiliate affiliate that need to be taken very seriously. and his leadership is not in question. they can launch the sort of attacks. and so preventing their affiliates, preventing their external operation group and the larnlgtest national insurgety movement that gives space for the extremists to operate. preventing them from continuing to hold such space in somalia is the critical element here. something like the operation that is reported to have taken place in -- targeting a specific individual al-shabaab leader or leader connected. that could do some temporary damage to the group set back an immediate operational plan. but only removing the group. that can address many of the clan tensions and undermine clan support and religious support for extremists splinter. that is going to be the only way

to actually reduce the threat longer term. >> thank you. >> thank you, senator flake for your engagement and interest. i have many more questions i would like to ask in a given the latend of the hour. i may ask one or two more briefly. doctor, -- we face on time pressure to support an expansion of amazon both at the 0 operational reach and the knew mar rick. we are running against a clock to trap suggestion to a legitimate poly security force. the longer security across the country is made possible by an external multinational force.

given the length of time it's going take to build up a professional and self-staining somali national security force including army component and the intelligence component and the policing component it is urgent we begin work on this today. at the same time i think it's going urgent for the next several years, at least five, very significant support when the african union commission in somalia until the somali national force come online and can take over some of the static security positions that amazon currently hold. if amazon was to leave today the ?olly federal government would very likely fall very quickly. that used to report to war loads. if you look at the various brie

gades that make up the national are any today. it's pretty quick to identify which war lord and malicious faction they used to whrong to. the level of national loyalty and the interoperate is remarkably low. and the somali national army funded by the united states and european partners in mogadishu is primarily crafted from one clan. to the concern of all other clans in the region across south central somalia and somali land. for this reason, we actually need very quickly to expand somali national army recruitment. take the clan malicious from the other area that either are a part of independent administrations or property forces ethiopia and kenya and use salary payment, frankly, to integrate them to a national force over time. >> the issue which you mentioned

in passing has been a real concern of mine. describe if you would, briefly, the role from the united states and how the economy and the growing sort of capacity in mogadishu and nationally would be effected if the mechanism for transferring were to be blocked. what do you think we can and should do try to sustain a pathway for a legitimate vetted -- [inaudible] there are about 2 million scattered around the world. it is essentially the most important lifeline the somali people have. i think the bank tend to other

financial institutions have legitimate concerns about it both here and the western in the united but also in the u.k. where now the barkley intang brocking or about to block companies to open up bank account there. i think what the government to do is work with government close the tongue try to create a frame work where by the companies can don't send it legal throughout somali people. the alternative now is if it go ahead with its promise to shut down on company in the u.k. the alternative is many people go underground and our ability to -- from the west to somalia become more constrained.

>> thank you. last question. the previous panel spoke some about the model of an african-lead indirect action by the united. financing -- for regional security. if we are at this sort of point of inflection where amazon either succeeds or fail and if actions like the attack in nairobi put significant pressure on regional partners like -- how vital is it for our interests, the continent and globally how vital is it for somalia's future that amazon succeed and the regional partners continue to get bilateral support from the united states?

and i think that amazon has done a remarkable job to push al-shabaab back. involuntary.. i think the challenge to some degree while it's a military operation, the au at the moment still lacks the capacity to kind of make this both an integrated political and military operation. ..

that mission was just established in chains so it's very early for us to be a lessee how that will work. he does have instructions from the u.n. security council to cooperate with the au. those instructions are not very clear as i mentioned in my testimony and i think it remains kind of a work in progress and unfortunately if they think all of my colleagues would agree ultimately the solution in somalia needs to be a political one. amazon needs to work within a political framework to achieve that goal and melding those two organizations and have them working towards the same goal

has and continues to be a challenge. >> thank you. senator flake. >> just one question. mr. aynte with regard to their diaspora it's very involved with $1.5 million a year in terms of remittances. what is the feeling of the diaspora generally about the national government and the situation there and can you give some sense of the feeling? >> well you know i used to be part of the diaspora myself back home. >> i know it's not monolithic and i'm not trying to suggest that but some sense. >> most people in somalia would have welcomed the inauguration in 2012 in huge numbers. i think a year into it many people have realized that they probably had a higher expectation then realistic and r. and is -- understandably disappointed with very slow progress that has

happened over the past year. i think many somalis continue to be optimistic and more importantly engaging in what's going on in somalia not only -- but also the diaspora that dominate across the country to the federal government where as many as 50% of the entire parliament is made up of the diaspora in something like 60 or 70% of the cabinet any given cabinet is the diaspora so the diaspora are vital politically and socially and economic. sometimes they are holding the government accountable to its national vision. >> thank you. >> thank you senator flake and thank you to our witnesses today for the first and second panel i will remind all this where he began which was the impact of the government shutdown on the capacity of different agencies and departments within the

united states to continue to carry out our development upon the sea intelligence and security missions and i'm grateful that all of our witnesses were able to testify today and i appreciate senator flake's corp. caring for them forward this hearing which is important in our ongoing discussion. i will keep the hearing record open until friday of this week so that members of the committee who are not able to join us might submit written questions for the record and with that this hearing is hereby adjourned.

>> host: you can't win this kind of fight when you are not unified in and the truth is the republicans were never unified in the strategy of defunding obamacare. in fact our editorial page had said from the beginning that there was no one in america watching obamacare more than we do and it's probably wasn't a very smart strategy because this president was very unlikely to ever agree to defunding his signature achievement. and so you know our view and i think it was certainly validated by what happened yesterday was

that this was a story that would not have a happy ending. i was listening to the show earlier and in general i would agree with a lot of your callers who say there's no real winner here. you can play the pluto game and force republicans to back down but the truth is we just passed a huge new expense act and we didn't do anything about it so the band plays on and keep whistling to ski as her dad continues to mount. to an economist that's something i'm very worried about. >> host: now that we have this house-senate conference about to take place talk about the budget. do you find any comfort or any viable way forward? >> guest: no, i think it's laughable actually that they created that but i want to make sure your viewers understand one important thing. you know they only extended the debt ceiling by six weeks and they have only extended the budget for six weeks so it's

quite possible you and i could be sitting here six weeks from now talking about exactly the same thing. i'm not sure publicans have the stomach for another big shutdown and it's not likely we'll see another government shutdown but we could very possibly see another big fight over the debt ceiling come january or early february. [inaudible] >> guest: who knows. the one thing republicans have forgotten about in this whole debate is republicans are playing with a weekend that they do have one thing the democrats are desperate to get rid of. they're kind of 80s under this leave for for the republicans as the sequester in the budget caps and democrats want to spend more money and are eager to get rid of that or at least suspend it so you could possibly see some kind of negotiation but you not just for example president president obama might say look

we have known from the debacle of the exchange for the last 10 days this is a ready to go and not ready for prime-time. i think i heard the statistic on your show that only .3% of the people on the web site up through so possibly a one-year delay in the mandate for individuals and the penalties in exchange for say one year suspension of the budget caps. just throwing that out as one possible idea. the other question is whether they will get serious about some of these other big entitlements like medicare and social security and medicaid. >> host: at taxes will be another sticking point or no? >> guest: taxes are not going to go up because they will make the case president obama just had his giant tax increase in january of this year. >> host: stephen moore with "wall street journal" joining us to talk about events from this week and going forward. the numbers on your your screen (202)585-3881 for plug-ins one

for both ends (202)585-3800 for for democrats 202-58-5382 for independents. federal workers you can also give your thoughts too. albany regional -- new york republican line joseph go ahead. >> caller: i'm thinking to myself i cash my paycheck and -- and i'm not sure what i'm spending. people have a tendency to -- and i'm thinking to myself if you could take 52 dollars a year times 580 million people for two years that's a lot of money. i'm sure it's not the whole deficit but it's a heck of a good start. i am taking from welfare and social security and taking from paychecks. if you take $52 out of someone's welfare check one time --

[inaudible] >> host: so you would say you can find sources anywhere to get money from. is that what you're saying? >> caller: i remember in 1992. [inaudible] it cost 20 cents. 90% of the people wait for that nickel but if you charge 25% you add it up. 90 million cards. >> guest: i'm not in favor of niggling and timing americans to death but i do think actually this gentleman raises an interesting point. if you were to cut government spending by 1 penny out of every dollar spent this year and another penny next year and a penny the year after that you would go a long way to dramatically reducing this budget deficit. the good news is we are going to get this deficit down to somewhere between 60,700,000,000,000 that's still a huge number but its progress

from the 1.2 trillion we had so big they get america back to work and get the 20 million people who don't have full-time jobs or no job at all to work that would do a lot. when you asked about raising taxes we just have to get people working so they are paying taxes. >> host: let's go to client from texas on our democrat's line. hi. >> caller: hi how are you this morning? >> host: fine thank you. go ahead please. >> caller: i just wanted to make a few comments. i noticed during this fiasco i used to be a republican and i changed it to them going to democrat after i saw what they did in the house. one, they change the rules of the house and i believe put it to where the speaker of the house was the only one who could ring up bill to the floor which i think is wrong. that's close to being a dictatorship to me but what really bothers me is the

president told people up front i will not negotiate on the health care bill. now i grant you there are some problems with it as far as people you know trying to enroll in it however it shows people didn't want to get into that program. grant you they should have had a better set up with more servers and stuff in the system but i don't know. some of them -- it was ill planned in the first place. >> host: thanks, caller. >> guest: a couple of things. it's interesting or our remember when the democrats were in the house and the republicans used to complain about the same thing that they couldn't get anything to the floor when tip o'neill and nancy pelosi ran the house. actually it's not news that you get speakers that really run the show.

that's the way it works. the senate by the ways very different. they can pick up any amendment at any time although harry reid has prevented that from happening. i think republicans shouldn't have gotten us into this crisis in the first place and i think the president was incredibly irresponsible in not negotiating in country reading to bringing us up to the brink of this potentially financial fiasco. fortunately we have got out of this but as i've said i'm not sure we resolved any of the issues here. we still have obamacare which is not just a really -- all the problems with exchanges and how it will increase our deficit but also as an economist the thing i worry about is what this is going to do to employment. i talk to employers all of the country. i travel a lot and talk to businessmen and women and they tell me they are not going to hire more than 50 workers. some have 65 workers and say they're going to cut back and i talked to a lot of employers for example in the fast food restaurant and by the way the

fast food industry is the biggest employer in america, five or 6 million people. they say they're cutting their hours back to 28 hours a week. for people who are lower income that's a real hardship and that's that's because via valmiki mandates. >> host: you are a member of the editorial board in your editorial today deals with ted cruz. what's it about? >> host: >> guest: i know ted cruz very well and i like him. he has made a big difference in his first six months here but i would also say and i've told senator cruised that i think the strategy was probably wrong. when he didn't have the senate republicans behind him it would lead to a division within the republican party. i think his goal was absolutely admirable. i'm not so sure the tactical way was carried out very smartly. >> host: "washington post" picks up on ted cruz and a smaller sense in its editorial this morning. they say it won't be easy in

part because well-funded apparatus headed by outside groups such as club for for growth and hair dissections stands the cruz faction threading to support a primary challenge to any house member senator who does not toe its line. >> guest: when i started the club for growth 12 or 13 years ago it was to create competitive primaries and try to get change in the bloodstream in congress. either way i think 90% of americans would agree that we need to totally change the composition of congress democrat and republican. these guys did not serve the american people and they are serving special interests. one thing i've been passionate for for the last 20 years in what happened in the last couple of weeks is term limits. these guys should serve six years in the house move on 12 years in the senate and move on to let more representative group of people being congress. >> host: is the tea partier help or hindrance to speaker

boehner? >> guest: right now he was a huge hindrance but you know the tea partier it's interesting the leadership of the tea party has made tactical mistakes and i think it's given the party at black eyes. you meet the people in the tea party movement and they come to washington and around the mall. these are people from all walks of life black white hispanic and people who care about the future of our country. we may disagree -- it does trouble me when people say these are just jihadists and terrible people and on strapped to their backs. you may disagree with what they want to do but they want to balance the budget and they want to get rid of this health care law and they want a prosperous economy. we all want that. >> host: do you think it will have an influence going forward? >> guest: good question. i am not sure about that. i think there are a lot of republicans who say wait a minute you are the ones who lead us down this path and it didn't

work out so well so i think the influence in the short term has been diminished. >> host: back to calls. pat from philadelphia pennsylvania independent line identifies of the federal worker. go ahead. >> caller: hello. i'm really happy to hear mr. moore say most people think our representatives are working for special interest because that's pretty obvious. but then he also talks about entitlement cuts for the small people when big business pays very little taxes or none. i would really like to know mr. moore's thoughts on people trying to get more revenue from companies like ge who make $5 billion in paid nothing in 2010? i understand 40% of corporations pay nothing so what are his thoughts on that? >> guest: that's a good question and again this is another one of my passions. i have been working for it 25 years for tax reform in this

country. i think everyone even president obama agrees our corporate tax system is a complete mess. we have the highest statutory tax rates of all industrialized countries and that's not good for american business. it's not good for american jobs and then as the woman was saying some companies pay nothing. that is completely unjust. i would favor a much lower rate system that gets rid of all the loopholes all the loopholes and all the deductions and i do the same thing on the individual side. my goodness we could get our tax rate down to 17 or 18% of the got rid of all the special interest loopholes to housing to charities to state and local governments in the wind energy and on and on. >> host: maverick, he identifies as maverick on twitter. tell me how republicans could have one.

>> guest: it's an interesting question because i remember in 1995 and 96 i was working for the republicans in the house so a similar situation. i think what was different then was bill clinton was negotiating. the republicans negotiated with bill clinton. bill clinton got most of what he wanted that republicans got some concessions and we moved on. what was different about this one was the presence that i'm not negotiating. he always thought he had the political upper hand which he probably did in the end given the fact that republicans caved in that i'm not so sure the republican -- the president is a big winner here. i think a lot of people see discussed with part republicans but also the way the president behaved to not coming up with some kind of negotiated settlement that would have made sure that as we write another trillion dollars of higher debt allowances that we are going to do something to get the budget

under control. this is one of the first times in a long time we have raised the debt ceiling with no conditioncondition s attached. >> host: how much of that also factored into the continuing rollout of the president's health care plan and its success? >> guest: sorry i'm not sure i understand. [inaudible] >> guest: i think he'd has staked his presidency on obama can one of the reasons he's not going to cave in on anything that would roll it back but you know i was always of the opinion if obamacare is going to fail which i think it will, that it proceeds. but the thing roll out and let the american people see how it works. if in a year or two they like it then it will be the law of the land and if they don't -- i don't you remember back in the late 1980s we had a medicare expansion bill. i think it was catastrophic care and the seniors hated it. it was one of the few times in

american history a new entitlement program was repealed because people said we don't like it. so i think there's a pretty good probability assessments on people see how many jobs are being destroyed and i can't tell you how many people -- 90% of people already have health insurance in their victorious wait a minute i'm going to get something worse out of obamacare. >> host: here is roy from newcastle pennsylvania on on our democrat's line. >> caller: hello. everybody listen to they say that 40% on every dollar spent by the government is borrowed. what that tells me is being an american every government check something through his 40% coming through is borrowed. the president makes over $400,000. $160,000 of his pay could come from china and every state

representative that gets $174,000, for over $50,000 of their pay comes from china. the worst part of this is i have been working since i was 15 and i have been paying into social security and i'm finally going to get there. i have applied for it at the end of this year and over $600 of my money that i paid in all of my life could be borrowed from china. this cannot even take 3% on a sequester? we have to cut that back at least 40%. >> host: thanks, nick caller. >> guest: it sounds more like a republican. first of all one of the interesting things that has happened over the last year is we have had this sequester cut a 5% cut and it actually worked pretty well. there are some hardships at the beginning but the american people now 20, 30 or 40% of

every dollar in his time is wasted. we need we do a 5% cut there will be a two or 3% cut next year. that's not a bad way to cut funding. when you talk to private businesses and even private households and what they did in this recession and in my opinion is still going on people cut back on their expenditures. businesses retooled and got rid of -- they sweat out the waste in the programs. that is what government has to do and i agree with this gentleman. there's a lot more room for that in the military has taken a big cut terry at i am for a strong defense but there's a lot of waste in the military. >> host: the discussions over the budget coming up for placing the sequester. >> guest: i'm not in favor that. a lot of these programs we care about education programs and energy programs and "national public radio" those kind programs are of getting hit by

the sequester. this is as i said earlier this is a potential negotiation of maybe suspending the sequester for a year to get real entitlement reforms. whether that happens or not i mean one thing you've got to realize this is like a hatfields and mccoys right now in washington. the republicans and democrats they hate each other right now. this is one of the unfortunate fallouts of this that this president said he was going to unify everyone and bring everyone together. i don't know about you and you have been here long time to matt that i've never seen it. >> host: the president said yesterday and two senate democrats -- democrats the next thing on the agenda is immigration reform. >> guest: i am strongly for immigration reform. i would love to see this get done because we have a lot of people here who are illegal through if we could find a way

for them to earn citizenship or at least earn a green card i would be in favor of that if they are working in kutcher bidding to our society. we need a lot because of this entitlement crisis social security and medicare. we will need a lot of young hard-working workers in this country who are smart and a great thing about america as they want to come here and contribute. why would return them back next. >> guest: the vitriol for the last two and a half weeks as far as the agendas concerned? >> guest: we will see. it's a poisonous atmosphere right now and they are right across the street from where we are sitting. it'll be interesting to see along that last. >> host: sean is from west virginia on the independent line. >> caller: hi how are you all doing this morning? i want to make a comment and then i have kind of a question. last night in the senate votes they had 80 some senators voting no ted cruz leaving the party. our country is about to go off

of the cliff. what kind of an american would let his country literally go off a cliff and face the trouble that we were facing? now i have a question for i guess you guys. i am a coalminer. i met coalminer and about two years ago or three years ago my wife heard herself. she got her disability. her health is worsening to where i had to leave work. i take care of my wife. we get no help that her social security disability and i take care of my sister's two kids. he is deceased and he is no help to the kids but a little bit of food stamps but i've never had to go on any kind of assistance in my life. i have worked since i was 17 years old. 17 years old. these republicans need to get their heads out of their -- and straightness country out.

>> guest: one interesting thing is this gentleman is a coalminer i'm not sure he wants to support democrats because president obama wants to put coal-mining out of business and get rid of the entire coal industry because they hate fossil fuels. that's a major employer in this country. one thing that gentleman was saying i thought he said there were 80 people in the senate. i think the vote was 80-20. >> host: the 81 yeas and ascended 18 days. >> guest: it passed by big margin but these are principled votes. ladies and gentlemen if you're concerned about our national debt and the fact that we are close to $17 trillion that's the question that was being posed yesterday and i think 18 people voted no. i don't know how i would have voted in the senate but they took a principled position that we have to start now not

tomorrow conquer now to do something about this debt. >> host:>> host: terry as theirt call for a guest. stephen moore from "the wall street journal." she is on our republican line. >> caller: i used to be a journalist and i continue to write. things i've that have not been discussed an all-time i've been listening to your show. first of all not counting the numbers of small business the economy is not going to get better and everybody's blaming the republicans and blaming technology. everybody loves the free access. it's costing us jobs and it's costing the businesses that used to be brick businesses. the company says we are hearing over the news are the ones that are responsible for a lot of tax dollars going out of the country in the billions. a lot of this money is being thrown into startups in the tech

industry. we are learning that what we thought was a free ride is actually a very expensive one. we have been paying with our privacy and a lot of these tech companies and i'm looking at the big ones, they are in california and washington but delaware and nevada and nevada is a state where it does not cooperate with the irs. i have done research which has shown me how many thousands are holmes stated in harry reid's state. >> host: what is the question for a guest? >> caller: first of all why is and "the wall street journal" adjusting this and why isn't "the wall street journal" educating people that where the economy is is not because of the parties but because the decisions we we are making in continuing to make.

>> guest: this is a good subject to and on. i think that i am actually somewhat lowish about the u.s. economy. this woman is right. this economy has been pretty lousy for five straight years. incomes are lower than before the recession and we are some three or 4 million jobs below where we were in 2007 so it's been a paltry recovery. there are some things to be optimistic about. the energy industry the biggest oil and gas boom in this country going on right now. this is a wonderful thing to see. on our front page last week the united states is now the number one energy producing country in the world. those are high-paying jobs, 75 to $80,000 sierra number two technology industries are doing very well. that's the future the digital age so that's fantastic. american corporations small and large have really become lean and mean fighting machines. i believe if you want to look at the best run companies in the

world they are here in the united states and that used to not be the case. ladies and gentlemen there is reason for optimism. we have to keep our fingers crossed. the number one issue including myself is for jobs. let's get america back to work and hopefully now that we have this crisis behind us we can get back to creating the good jobs americanamerican s want. >> host: stephen moore with "the wall street journal" serves on the editorial board. thank you so much. >> guest: thank you so much and thank you for c-span by the way. a new study argues the obama administradministr ation lacks transparency in its dealings with the press. a