members of congress accountable if they don't have oversight. if you're not going to have oversight, don't be up here. it's hard work. last question. or next to last. >> senator, i'm -- >> say that three times quickly. >> i admire your decision to impose term limits on yourself as a public servant. i understand though that congressional leadership and leadership within the party is often tied to the number of terms that a legislator serves and how long he or she has been in office. how can you help us to feel good about your decision without feeling like we're losing hope in having a

principled leader as yourself within these leadership positions someday? >> well, there are formal leadership positions and then there's leadership. you know, that would be my answer. the american people will recognize what the leadership is in the senate. and there's elected leadership posts and then there's people who represent through a vision what the american people want and are willing to stand up for that. and there's hundreds of thousands of people in america that feel the way i do, and we need them to step forward. but also we need them to hold others accountable. i don't worry about all that. you know, the fact is that there's a truth out there about what our problems are, and what some of the solutions are. and what we need is people speaking that truth, and not being afraid to take the consternation of their peers and the cold shoulders that you get about speaking what the facts are and the system is

ill. the system has some sickness, and what i'm trying to do is give it an antibiotic and resuscitate it. and you resuscitate it by standing up for what you believe, and there will be others that follow that, and doing what you know is in the best long-term interest of the country and putting yourself second. you know, there's -- the best model of leadership they know in the world is this guy jesus from nazareth. and you know, it's he who wants to be a leader should be a servant to all. so what you do is you serve all by work negligent long term to serve all -- working in the long term to serve all and not worrying about the short term. [applause] >> thank you all very much.

she "milliken's bend: a civil war battle in history and memory." viewers to the southern festival in national. my name is nathan and i'm honored to introduce the author. she is an author of several books. she's an archivist, free-lance writer with a master's degree from ohio state university as well as the university of wisconsin madison ms. barnickel works at the national public library in the special collections division. she's here to discuss her new book "milliken's bend" which understand the modules and

francis lane three award from the press for the most significant contribution to southern studies in a book published by the press here in 2013. also the current issue of the civil war times magazine called "milliken's bend" stellar and it was hailed by authors s.a. exhaustively researched gem and a model for the future combined battle and memory studies. a little housekeeping. we will have time at the end of the presentation for questions if you do have a question please go to the microphone. at the conclusion of the session, she will be moving to ackley to the signing in the plaza outside of the war memorial auditorium where you can purchase a copy of the book and hopefully get it signed. please silence your cell phone and without further ado ms. linda barnickel. >> thank you. i appreciate you coming out on a saturday morning.

"milliken's bend" is a long forgotten fight that took place on june 7, 1863 not far from vicksburg. at the time it was just kind of a federal outpost. by this time grant's army was besieging vicksburg so the majority of both confederate and union troops were entrenched. as a small outpost. the fight that took place only have about 1500 men on either side. let me backtrack double that before the battle that took place here. back in the spring all up and down the west bank of the mississippi river, north and

south of "milliken's bend" this whole region is where the federal troops grant's army was gathering before they later went down self on the louisiana side and then crossed over into vicksburg so there were thousands of federal troops in that region in the spring. the general thomas came from washington and his mission was to recruit as many regiments as he cut and he had the authority from the president to do so. he went up and down the region making speeches and encouraging white soldiers who were in the army to become officers in these new regiments.

now, these officers were going to be white men only and they would not received their new officer's pay until they had recruited their regimen at full strength so that gave them extraordinary incentives to grab anybody could and in most of them into their regimen right away. in addition, most of these officers had not been officers prior to this. you have situations where you might have a sergeant that got promotable the way up to captain. that several grades and rank that he skipped. this whole idea of enlisting black men in the union army was the idea at this point. so everybody was kind of learning and feeling their way

through this. so the white officers began to form a kind of this nuclei of these african american regiments. in the northeast louisiana that was caught him country. it's exactly what we think of when we think of the old south where you have fields of cotton, hundreds of slaves on the plantations. that is exactly what northeast louisiana was like. so the new officers go out and began recruiting and organizing their regiments. this is made of 1863. both officers and the enlisted men learning their new duties. for the former slaves they are receiving weapons, uniforms. they are getting some training

that everybody's kind at trying to figure out the new role and the new job. of the weapons they received were kind of cast off and the expectation for dahuk is the would be a garrison force once the main union army moved on in their mission to take vicksburg so this is the situation at the time. let me just recap quickly. january 1st is when the final emancipation proclamation was issued. it provided for the enlistment of black men in the union army. unlike the preliminary emancipation is students of temple 62, the final emancipation did have the distinction that black men with the in the union army. in april, lorenzo thomas comes to the tally to recruit the officers and in may the officers go out and began to recruit the

black soldiers among the former slaves and they are both learning their duties. remember i said they were going to be outposts. there was not an expectation there would be any significant combat involved. that's another reason why these positions were so attractive because these were men who are veterans of the shiloh quote and and other battles and was a great opportunity to get a promotion and get an extreme increase in pay. the sergeants pay would be about $17 a month if he were in the artillery and if you got a new officer's position you could get $60 a month so a lot of the officers thought it would be a good job and then there were some who were abolitionists who care very deeply about this issue but there were some who saw it as a great opportunity. so that's the situation and then early june, june 7th. most of the soldiers had not

been in the service more than a month. some of them didn't even know where their caps were. this image gives you a very good idea of the nature of the fighting. a lot of times you can't always rely on these because it is a new artist rendering but this is actually a fairly accurate portrayal of what occurred at the bend. was a lot of violent combat, bayonets, muskets and i will just read a passage here that i think will give you a good idea of the nature of the fighting at this particular point in the battle. the rebel troops charged many of them without stopping to reload. one confederate took time to take a bead on an officer yelling to his men give them

health, give them hell. the soldier wrote his father is a leader with satisfaction and precision. i took deliberate aim to inches below and to the right of the second button and sent a ball and three buckshots and him. he cell with a word es helm and his lips. many of the tenders due to their own unfamiliarity to their weapons could get one or two rounds before the line of battle closed on each other. the fight erupted into a hand to hand where bayonet in the muskets were used, a rare occurrence in the civil war battle. first lieutenant david cornwell, one of the white officers with the black troops watched the initial attack from his position in reserve with two companies of the mind louisiana. the ninth louisiana despite its name is a new unit. the captain and second lt. were accompanied on the far left of the union line. he took up the muskett but the

southern forces poured over the levee like a tidal wave. cornwell salles a few others nearby abs or by the confederate line as prisoners. the comrades overwhelmed and he sprang into action yelling get them as he led his men forward. jackson launched bed ahead. snatching cahal ahead and had shattered in his hands. he was stabbed multiple times with his friend didn't slow down a new bullet struck his arm shattered in the bone near his shoulder but he stayed in the action. the confederate soldiers and a yankee officer to help recounted be charged and fought the bayonet crossing bayonet for one

minute. my antagonist was a negro that filed and missed me and then plug his gun and tried to strike me. i stabbed my his muskett on to the soldier and the rebel fought back. i then sent the bayonet through him and fired in as divine service which blew him all to pieces. the confederate general praise his men and their deadly work. there were several instances where the enemy crossed the next workshop down at the muzzle of a musket. no charges ever more gallantly made in this and the enemies were not only driven but were followed in to the camp. he had mixed reviews including praise. this was resisted by the portion of the enemy force with considerable obstinacy in while they ran almost as soon as the

charge was ordered. that gives you a little bit of an idea of what the fight was like. here is the scene. the confederate forces were all texas troops. the first to engage the yankee forces over here these are the levees right up against the bank of the mississippi river. ..

they had seen action at black river ridge just a few weeks before, had sustained very heavy casualties there. they were experienced veterans. they're really the only battle tested veterans on the field that day. the confederate troops said been in the service for a year-and-a-half that's been most of that time marching around. a week before they had engaged one regiment of white troops at a place called perkins landing just a week before. then it was a cakewalk, pushover . they only had -- the confederate forces only had one man killed in that fight, and the yankees ran. so they come into this fight thinking the same thing will happen here, you know, we will go wind, what the yankees and

begun. well, okay, the union line is disintegrating. the 23rd dialer spent the night of the transport polk. there were just getting into their line of battle with a confederate tide came their way. again, they were veterans. it was immediately unsustainable , so they were treated back to the river banks. the 11th louisiana was the largest bridge and present at millikan's band, but they, too, you know, as this confederate force is coming up this way, they are also overwhelmed car back to the river bank. two companies, the 11th louisiana they stand firm on the far right of the union line. about this time the gunboat opens up on to the confederates from 100-pound shells into the confederate line here, and that prevents the entire annihilation of the union garrison.

the confederates realize there will not appeal to take the position and withdraw. so who won? well, if you ask the enlisted men on the confederate side it was a smashing victory. you know, they had caused great casualties among the federal offenders. they had merely taken the position. it was a victory for them.

i need to talk about the union side. the contenders would through from the field. it had great propaganda value for the north because this was a situation where former slaves were engaged in very severe fights. they did five with great courage even though they were quickly overwhelmed. i mean, you erred some of the descriptions. it depends on who you ask in terms of the one.

he was very disappointed. i've seen says fear of gunboats as the star of the war area so he was disappointed. he certainly did not see it as a victory. dahlia both further and worker bees met was in charge of all of the confederate region west of the mississippi river. so he was the top general out there. and he wrote to tailor that, i hope that your subordinates recognize the propriety of giving no quarter charge negros and their officers. in other words, take no prisoners. kill them. shoot them down. we don't want to deal with this problem. fast forward a little bit. and in august -- well, actually,

let me back up before i get to this. there were rumors almost immediately after the battle that prisoners, union prisoners taken at milliken spend have been executed by the confederates. it was never substantiated, at least not yet to. grant wrote to taylor and said what is this, here? and taylor said to might not know anything about it. so there was -- there were these, you know, great concern about what happened to the black and white prisoners that were taken. about 100 men were taken prisoner. so fast forward to august 1963. union general john stevenson takes a division of man out to monroe louisiana. it is a being a very short expedition because he gets to monroe, and the next day he gets called back to the mississippi

river. so they are not there very long. in that group is a man named major john davis. he was an officer in the ninth louisiana which fought an millikan's band command he made his special mission to try to find out what had happened specifically to captain corporation and heath who was captured and milliken spend. they have not heard anything about him, where he was, what was happening to him, if he was formerly a prisoner what. so as a result of the questions that major davis was asking in monroe, he was talking to confederate soldiers, confederate hospital. he was talking to union loyalists. he received testimony that captain gordon heath and lieutenant from the 11th louisiana which turned out to be

george con had come indeed, been executed there in monroe. bell, at the time, like i said, they got rid of almost immediately to go back to the mississippi river. that is is kind of as far as a gun at that particular point in time. however, there was a report -- in fact, major davis's report ended at the line all the way to secretary of war, and even an investigating committee in congress. so one of the significant points about millikan's band is that that report contributed to, in some manner, to the cessation of prisoner exchanges between north and south. now, what i have since found about the black troops who were taken prisoner, those two officers for the officers taken prisoner. all of the rest of the prisoners were black troops.

most of what i have found indicated that they were not executed, but they were returned to slavery. there is also some indication that at least some of them were treated as regular prisoners of war because they do return to their regiment at the end of the war. cell millikan's band contributed to the breakdown of prisoner exchanges and increased recruiting among free blacks in the north and a recruiting poster that says, our free man less brave than slaves? and it was used to, you know, encourage free blacks in the north to join the union army because, after all, of men who had just been slaves can he could then sell so well in battle, shouldn't you be down there fighting as well? and it, along with port hudson which took place elsewhere in louisiana just a week before the

fight and in fort wagner which took place a month later in south carolina, millikan's band helped kind of wake-up the northern lights to the idea that maybe this idea of investing black men in the in on the night work and a gang. now, americans spend was unique when compared to those of the two battles because at milliken spend the majority of the union forces were african-american troops. that was not the case of the other two battles. in addition, there were former slaves which, again, was not the case is the head to battles. milliken is banned today no longer exists. it was washed away years and years ago, but there have been a renewed interest, but it was, you know, a very small fight, but an important fight. that is part of what motivated me to write the book.

i just had to know more. the more i went on, the greater questions i had. there are all sorts of twists and turns to the story, i expected things like henry mccaw like saying that the black troops falwell. and it is a story that i think has been missing from civil war is tree for a long time. so that is the end of my formal presentation. i do have a website where i try to post my can. there is more a information on the battle there. also, links to e-books if you're interested in those. and we will open it up for questions, no, and i have to tell you that i am leaving out an awful lot of stuff. this is only about two chapters of the book. any questions? and please use the microphone at the back.

>> did you happen to discover how the black jurors were recruited? was there any impressment for was an all volunteer? >> thank you. good question. a lot of impressment. a lot of impressment. there was not such a thing as draft for black troops, but in this region many of the parishes along the river there had before the war in 1860 had 80 to 90 percent slave population. and so, again, keep in mind, these officers, they want to get as many people as they can as fast as they can because then they can be paid. you also have a number of regiments, many, many regiments organizing in an area at the same time. it was almost a competition to see who could reach kirk -- recruit the quickest. and as so many of the men which allegis marched off of the

plantation. recruiters with elan. a. need to see all the miniver here. okay. we are going. another thing that i did not really talk about, but there were large what were called contraband cans which were kind of like refugee camps, and pretty much in this region if you were an african-american man between the ages of 15 and 60, you know, you were probably marched off into the army. >> in your presentation you mention one of the determining factors was a gunboat. a generalized question. in your research, not just common today teacher at west point when gramm was there a coordinated concept of gunboats?

i know that he really use those boats very effectively in the vicksburg campaign, but i wondered, and i thought of this question. i figure you are an expert. do you know whether they had a course in that coordinated warfare? >> thank you. that is a good question, and i am afraid i do not know the direct answer to that. i do know that they had a couple of rare admirals' who were, i guess, specialize in what they called the inland waters, the rivers as opposed to the haitian . there was a particular unit known as the mississippi marine brigade, and i do tell of a bit of a story about them in my book they were kind of a forerunner of amphibious operations in some

way. it was a union unit. it was an army unit even though it does not really sound like it , and they were designed to be kind of like a quick strike force on the river. and so if they were down -- let's say they were up at memphis and of a sudden something was happening, they can hop on a boat, go downriver, jump off command go in and fight . and so that was -- that was kind of what their mission was and what their organization allies, but it was just one kind of peace of the whole thing. so to get to your question i am afraid i really don't know, you know, much about what kind of formal training they add. i suspect -- they did not have gunboats at the time he was a west point, not like they did during the war. and so it would surprise me a little, i think, especially

because camino, the previous low was the mexican war. so very good question. >> when the new officers were sent out to recruit regiments, how many men or in a regiment that they needed to recruit to get full recognition as having done so? how many companies or in a regiment? and then on a broader scale across the war, what were differences guy if there were any, in regimented company sizes between the union and the confederates? >> good question. well, during the civil war in general their regiment was typically, at least on paper, about 1,000 men. that would be composed of ten companies of 100 men. the reality is by this time of the lord the confederate forces had been in service @booktv that

was true on both sides because there were basically using the same man -- same manuel, same type of organization, but by this time of the war the confederate forces had been in service for about a year, year-and-a-half. so their strength was probably down to maybe between four and 600 per ridgemont. the union forces because that is a whole different story. they are not anywhere near that. the iowa troops were only 120 men. that was only half of the regiment which would put you up to about 300, they had sustained very heavy casualties mount long before. i don't know off the top of my head the numbers for them, but i think that probably maybe about 500 men. disease and attrition took there toll, and so it was really

pretty rare that a regiment on either side was actually had a thousand men. one of the other things is that many officers on both sides talk about their companies taking 50 percent casualties and the command. so, you know, it was small, but you know, it took its toll, for short. >> yes. i have two questions. if you could first be to have you came across this research topic. then also, i wonder if you could talk of of that about how your knowledge of archive help in funding research and helped you do your research. >> thank you. >> i got interested in this because of the story of court in east, one of the officers that was captured.

i don't have a personal connection to anyone who serve there. it was just i naturally came across one said that said gordon heath, murdered by royals, july 1862 which was wrong. but it struck me is not it is i thought, well, it is a war, what you mean he is murdered? and, you know, i began kind of taking and that. nibbling at mellon then. and, you know, for a long time i did none of i had a story. it would go back and forth. it does seem like there were executions in and it would seem like it or not. it was really hard to kind of figure out what happened. but i did find, as i mentioned, major john davis's report, did find that, and it was pretty convincing. and so that is the short version of how i got started.

definitely by background as an archivist helps me a great deal in being able to kind of fairy out these resources. hovering that kind of knowledge and background and is the way records separate and the way to really navigate the army bureaucracy. 150 years later it really helped me a lot. and, of course, and a whole lot of help along the way from other archivists as well. a lot of support from my friends are here today. i think we still have a little bit of time. >> the title of the book is still more -- >> can you step closer to the microphone? >> the title is millikan's band, civil war battle, history and

memory. seems like your presentation was mostly the history. wonder if you could speak some about how the battle is remembered now. >> thank you. yes. part of what i began with as i investigated this was that i could not find anything about it. i could not find anything. now and then there might be an article here and there, but they are kind of said the same things and rock and a based on the san sources. it did not get to the death of the questions that i had about the flight. it was one of those things with the more i researched it the more questions i had the more i discovered there was a much larger story in there. it pretty much disappeared from history books almost as soon as it happened. it occurred in june 1863.

well, in early july you have gettysburg and the fall of vicksburg. so everybody was looking at those events. so it the chilly, immediately, you know, boss the headlines right almost as soon as it occurred. i think to some degree because there were black troops involved in perhaps did not hit the press. i mean, in some cases it did, but in other places it did not. on top of that it was a small fine. you know, you had this big seas going on at vicksburg. this was just, you know, a small skirmish in the broader scheme of the civil war. so they kind of disappeared almost immediately. it disappeared literally, you

know, early in the 1900's and get washed away. so the site itself is no longer there. i do spend quite a bit of time in my book talking about vicksburg national military park and there will and remembering or forgetting the battle. for a very long time the history that was presented at the park their was based on what was called the downing school. he was a professor. in the early 20th century had a very paternalistic view of slavery. slavery was not that bad. you know, the slaves were well provided for, that kind of thing answer that was kind of -- because that was considered the current scholarship at the time the was the kind of history that was presented. in addition to that the enabling

-- is specified that the interpretation would concentrate on the commemoration of this siege of vicksburg. so it limited it to the expert proper. so all of the rest of the things that happen for a year-and-a-half before the city fell or not really within the scope of the park. especially since this was a cross the river, you know. but in the past 15 to 20 years there has definitely been increased interest of battle. there has been more -- this has been written about it. i attribute a lot of that to the movie glory. if you are familiar with that, it tells the story of the 504th massachusetts and their assault at fort wagner. again, that was a month after

millikan's band. that took place in south carolina. and it is interesting to see the impact that that movie had, even within the historical profession because you can really see that after 1989 when that movie came out there is much more that comes out about that troops during the civil war. one last thing about the expert, the park, of course their interpretation, they no longer subscribe to the dumbing school of thought. they're much more conscientious, just because our culture is in general, but also because the scope of their part was expanded some years ago said that they could now interpret the entire campaign for vicksburg. i know that they had planned to do additional work in interpreting reconstruction.

in fact, a couple of the regimen is the fog later spent most of the rest of the lore of forming garrison duty in vicksburg. in so what happens to vicksburg after the union occupation and into reconstruction is very much their story as well. so that is still a good summary. there is more to it, but that is to the heart of it, i think. >> i believe you mentioned that there were african-american troops that fought at milliken spend on the confederate side as well or not? >> no sir. >> than the broader question, what role did african american troops play in the civil war, fighting on the confederate side what were the ways in which there were made to fight, did they want to fight, or whether not at all. >> i cannot sit there were not at all. in fact i yesterday i was just talking to a different crew

about various records that i used to my research. and i did not use this for this particular book. but the state of tennessee is you will recall slave pensions. some other confederate states also issue similar types of pensions after the war. and these were given to slaves who had gone off to war with their masters, usually has body servants, and at least in tennessee the slaves had to have served the entire war for, you know, they did not college stars because there were not listed here you know, they had to have a good excuse for not serving the rest of the war. there are various stories out there about black confederates, most of what i have found about that, though, they are not

regular enlisted soldiers. they are servants. you can certainly question now voluntary it was. i mean the south was their home, too. one thing needed to be addressed as in louisiana earlier in the war. there were units from new orleans opposed to free blacks to work in a confederate service but then they later end up to five your lens falls very early in the war. they actually end up turning around and going into the union army in become what are known as the first in the third louisiana native cards. and they fought at fort hudson which was much further south than millikan's band. does not have a direct relationship to milliken spend, but that was the fight that took place a week before this. and they also, you know, fought with great courage there, but

most of what i have read about blacks in the confederate service, there were there as servants more than soldiers. and so much later in the war. there was an effort much, much later, in 65, the manpower situation was so desperate that they did say, well, you know, i've we're going to have to release our slaves. and there was one other thing that i was going to say. no, yes. the interesting thing also is that millikan's band was in june. by september curries man who is the general is said, you know, i have pleaded not take any prisoners, he is actually beginning to think, hey, maybe we should consider this ourselves. there was a confederate general in charge emma road named paul ortega a bear. he may or may not have had

anything to do with the executions of the officers, but he also is starting to think about this idea of enlisting slaves. so the idea was out there, but it did not really become reality in any kind of concrete or false sense and sell way, way late, april 65, was the very end of the war. if him clear. >> other any records they received conversations. is there any sort of marker at the site? >> i will take the second question first. pathe there is kind of your typical historic marker near the site of millikan's band. it is naturally in the middle of nowhere. if you did not know you were going out to see that marker you would not be able to find it.

it is on a dirt road. so it is way down the middle of nowhere. it is there. there is a small section just off the interstate that runs east and west a small plot of land known as grand canal and it is part of the vicksburg part. even though it is in louisiana. there are some informational plaques at that location that talk about millikan's band. it is probably five or maybe even 10 miles from the original site tomorrow because it is expert property they can put that information there. so those are the main primary markers. there is a stationary exhibit between the visitors center at vicksburg national park the talks about millikan's band. they have done a lot of work over recent years to get the

word out about the fight. the pension question, yes, the black soldiers will and -- were eligible, just like any other union soldier. they -- the pensions for the former slaves who were in the usc ts are an incredible, fascinating resource because they've all give you all kinds of affirmation. they will talk about where there were born, on one plantation, many of the folks here in louisiana had come from elsewhere like virginia, north carolina. and it will give you almost their entire migration route. i was so from this man to this man, and then removed to georgia and so on and so forth. and it will talk about the name changes, you know, how did they, you know, maybe when they enlisted the union army clerk

just wrote down the name have whoever the previous level there was, but after the war he decided to my not going to take that name. i am going to take the name of my father. his name was thomas. my name now is going to be benjamin thomas. what have you. there are all sorts of variations on that. and so they are very, very rich resource. now, i have had some frustration and that many of the guys that i want to know about apparently never filed for a pension. and that would be true for white jurors as well. i don't know if that is because they did not know about it. add on know if it is because there was difficulty with literacy. i don't know the reasons for that. maybe it is just my luck.

there is a very good book called voices of emancipation with specifically look said they u.s. ct pensions and what they reveal about the usc al qaeda parents as well as the experience during slavery and the reconstruction. >> we have time for a few more questions. >> i have been to the national archives and done research of my ancestors -- in the civil war. there were union soldiers to all of them, not as familiar with what the records are for confederate soldiers in the national archives, but are the pension records that you spoke of just now for u.s. colored troops located in the same repository from the national archives? >> yes. they are exact this same. >> the process of getting those records would be the same. >> exactly. >> as it would be perry. >> all of the union pension records are one thing regardless

of race. >> if you recall can you give us a chronology of pension filings and when they first began and the political aspects of, you know, became a presidential election topic. there were a lot of people for and against and that sort of thing. these days and times of disagreements over washington financing. >> i will do my best to address that. i don't know that i can pull off cape -- dates of the top of my head and regard. there were some forms of assistance given, primarily to soldiers were those are orphans. right about the time of the war. a little bit after words you had to prove that your disability was related to your military service.

and as you get closer to the 20th-century the very late 1800's or early 1900's if you were a so were soldiers you could get a pension. you did not have to prove your disability. and in the case of him in pensions, again, regardless of race, those are the national archives. with confederate pensions, those are at, not the state of service -- so, for instance, he sticks his troops, the confederate pensions for them will be where they were presiding when they filed for pension. and these were the former confederate states there were issuing these pensions. so if one of these taxes guys went up to californium is not going to get a pension at all because california did not issue confederate pensions. but if one of these taxes guys came here to tennessee, his pension record would be at the

tennessee state library and archives is that would be wary was filing for that pension. >> i had one final question. you mentioned this a lot more authors, it was a member study. can you go into memory studies until us a little bit about where an affirmation came from for the? >> sure. >> well, the study of memory as it relates to history has really kind of exploded over the past, i don't know, seven to ten years, especially. and it looks a lot and how -- literally how we remember things how do we remember the civil war? we as a culture, we as a society , we -- you know, it can vary from north to south or location to location, racial

lines. you know, how do we remember and commemorate things and why do we do that? why do we do it in the ways in which we do it? that is kind of a general answer. add on of a federally describes it enough. memory is one of these cushy topics where it is easy to talk in generalizations. but there is one book in particular that has especially been influential in civil war studies. it is by david blithe call the race and reunion, and it takes a long view at how america has remembered the civil war. and how that has been affected by race, class, time frame, a region of the country, political agendas, even tourism. i recently read a book about gays byrd that is fascinating because it is looking and not

the battle, with the tourism. and it takes it from the time of the battle all the way up to present day and how tourism has changed the town and also what the differences were between the way that the veterans remember the battle and commemorating the battle verses the children of the veterans verses us today. and it is a very, very interesting. so that is a couple of examples. >> thank you. >> we have come to the end of our session. we need to accommodate an expert is coming in, but i want to thank and the for being here with us in introducing this. want to invite everybody to the signing colonnade to speak with wind and hopefully get a book. thank you. >> thank you very much. [applause]

>> that was linda barco from the 20,137th festival books. >> when i was in the fourth grade is the liberal my cluster of killed. a few weeks before the school and so wanted to ask a dance, when i was too shocked. a shuttle bus school that monday morning in randy do until me all about it. a committed year by ginnie? she had killed in a car crest. a tractor-trailer hit her mom. i did not believe him because he was always making of stuff like this, going on about how his dad lived in england, even though this was just something his mother told him. but he just kept going on about it. my mom saw it on the news last night. she's dead. not knowing what was going on and wondering whether was true. it was true. a couple of minutes later i found up from my fourth grade teacher. she said manager desk and put her and said there -- her head

and hands. suppose to be working or spelling book every race stopped and watched. she sat for a second and started to cry. i put the pencil line with center and got to know we won't have to do any work today. another grocery crying. more of -- she walked over, a never had. just her shoulder and has the gall to go to the batter with there. what is up with that? she did not even know her that well pit inside my head was jealous because i wish i could be free. it will to compose herself until this, i know this is an accident. there will be a funeral tomorrow i hope we can all go. i have permission forms. you need your parents to sign them if you wish to iran are we calling each of your parents' night. if it is too much which is stay behind. some raise their hand and said what movie.

ms. morgan says she did not know. she thought maybe as superman movie. and did not say anything there was thinking. the next fiscal year rose picked the funeral. a gun on the bus all dressed up in their shirts and ties, begun a school bus took off. a couple was to not go that day. he wanted to go. made up an excuse and could not go. i sat and watched and they're is a part of me saying, this is great. tutors are we not had to do any work. but after only watching half-hour of superman four realize something important. superman for was horrible. you can see the wires and the road. the microphone was shown in one shot. of a sudden a special needs grow

started crying. i turned to kevin until then to, you put japan's to the mexican losses in the pro rims online at booktv.org. >> here are some books published in 2005. ♪ his eighth year. the assassins kate mr. gingrich was on book tv first after-hours program. >> i was very much shaped by barry goldwater's conscience of a conservative. the treaty by which to begin talking about a different way of solving our problems that had been the dominant in the.

then as a senior in college i saw ronald reagan gave his nationwide address on october october 604th. it permanently changed my understanding of what we are capable of reading and 66 watched reagan run for governor. and you saw the rise of an intelligent populist modern conservatism. and it was -- would never have used the word intelligence. we now know that reagan personally wrote over 600 essays on government in the late 1970's which became his radio shows. but we know that he in fact had fought a great deal of great depth about how

get into this mess. i have been the for seven years. maybe you paris, to do some heavy lifting an airliner. i never forget that. >> visit booktv.org to watch more programs from last 15 years and continue watching book tv all weekend long for more nonfiction authors and books.

>> mr. kennedy talks about the history of affirmative action policies and argues that affirmative action is a morally sound idea but should not be that a ban if. >> thank you very much for their generous introduction, making the space available for me and for all those. i am going to talk for a few minutes about my new book. and then we will have a discussion, monologue bill will turn out fleetwood dialogue, and the flow will be open to questions, comments, and by all means, objections because this is a subject about which people have all sorts of varying opinions, and i would suspect and then an audience like this people have different takes on her subjects.

what is ours of judge? our subject is a controversy involving affirmative action. and this is truly a controversy. everything about affirmative action seems to be controversial , including the very framing of the subject. so you get a little bit of a hint actually on where i stand in so far as i refer to affirmative-action as affirmative-action. as you will quickly see, i am a proponent of making special efforts to advance the interests, the fortunes of various sectors of our society that have historically been kept to the margins were cut down. and so i call this affirmative-action. far richer of color subject reverse discrimination you would know that i have a somewhat different take call with this

subject goes on their wide variety of different rubric. some people say affirmative-action. some people talk about affirmative discrimination, some people talk of a positive discrimination. some people talk about reverse combination. let me describe a little bit. and this goes under various different rubrics and titles, but all of them have in common the basic mission, they're all talking of a special efforts to reach out and to people who are deemed to be affiliated with various groups. to be affiliated with different groups. now we say affirmative-action most people immediately think of race. we can talk about why that's so. that's what i'm man they are to be focusing on.

amelya about racial affirmative action. affirmative action comes in different guises. in massachusetts, a very strong affirmative action program in favor of veterans. veterans to seek to give civil service jobs and given a very strong preference over others. and of course their preference that there is a systematic detrimental effect on the careers of others. there is gender affirmative-action. a line of all sorts are in many settings the beneficiaries of affirmative action. there is a regional affirmative-action in public schools of various sorts to mainstays do this or in state candid it's are dealt with differently than out of state and its. so there is a wide range of

different sorts of affirmative-action. i will mainly be involved with talking about racial affirmative-action. when you talk about affirmative action, not only does it involve different groups, but it has varying intensity. so i will give you to sort spirits imagine if you have a school. you fill the. phil of 99 seats. you're down to last one. you have to candid it's not have the same test scores, grades, and, you know, they are essentially equal. you have to choose one of the other. suppose it is a school where in which there have historically been few women or their have historically been few blacks are there have historically been few latinos. and with that scenario in mind the mission's director puts of thumb on a scale for the woman on the farm on the skill for the black person or thumb on the

skill for the latino. you have affirmative-action. after all, the person could have flipped a coin and leftist completely to chance, but the admissions directors felt that he or she would reach out a helping hand to advance the interest of a person associated with one of these historical marginalized groups. so that is what i think many people would view as a relatively soft form of affirmative action. endo a soft affirmative action causes controversy, it causes considerably less controversy than one might view has a harder form of affirmative action. let's suppose the same scenario, one less seat. i suppose the you have to candid it's. let's make this a black candid and the white candid. and let's suppose that the white candid it's a great are appreciably better than the black and it is. suppose that the white candid

it's test scores are very sure we better than the black and it's, that the admissions director nonetheless chooses the black and it. that is a harder form, a clear preference for the black and it, and that is what is gives rise, i think -- that is what really provides the intensity for the affirmative action controversy. okay. that is what i'm talking about. special efforts on behalf of people associated with varying groups. when the racial affirmative action of this or we're familiar with, when did racial affirmative-action really take root? did take root in 1963 or just a couple of weeks a year? remarked the 50th anniversary of the march on washington. the summer of 1963. people were talking about affirmative action?

some people were. martin luther king jr. was talking about affirmative action, will we now refer to as affirmative action. he says very straightforwardly, for most of american history and indeed for all of american history, special efforts to been made to keep the negro down. he said, in order for us to overcome our racist past special efforts would have to be made to elevate the negro. he was talking about a fraction. but in 1963 that sort of talk was actually on the margins. and the king himself was arson criticized by people, including people who marched with him for taking that position because there were people his said, well, you know, that is the use of race, for goodness sakes. not to say it is a different use

of race and jim crow segregation , but it is the use of race, and it is, therefore, to be frowned upon. so in the early 1960's, even the mid-1960s, you really didn't -- affirmative-action, people were talking about it. it was really on the margins. it does not become really rich kid. does not become prevalent until the late 1960's, the early 1970's. it does not become prevalent until after the classical stage -- after the classical era of the civil rights revolution. why? why does a for red actions start taking word? what pumps the rise of affirmative-action? our number of things that prompted it. one thing is that people saw

that the hand of over to anti-black discrimination -- that was welcome, a good thing, a very good thing. but simply ceasing anti-black discrimination, that was scared. it was useful. open up opportunities for some black people. up in the public in is to my for instance, for black people who had developed the skills, gun education's so when these artificial race barriers, you know, were taken from them there were in a position to march right for. but that did not help so much the many millions of black people who have really been debilitated by jim crow

segregation. what about black people who because of jim crow segregation did not get a good education or were deprived of opportunities? these people, even when the races barriers went down, so there are no races barriers in front of them. let's just about the size of for a moment. no race barriers, but because they have been deprived of opportunity in the past they are nonetheless had a tremendous disadvantage in competition to move forward in american life. there were people his said, you know, that is not fair. in a sense if we don't provide a helping hand to those people, we are permitting -- we are simply permitting the debilitating

effects of racist mistreatment in the past to live on. we are allowing a continuation, a perpetuation of past racial mistreatment, and that is unjust . and that was, you know, the effort, the desire to overcome the effects, the ongoing effects of past discrimination was one of the things that prompted affirmative-action. another thing, very closely aligned with the first, social peace, legitimization. i mean, you recall how lot of younger people now, of course, don't recall. but looking out in the crowd, some of you will recall the late 1960's and early 1970's, some of you will recall, for instance, the long, summers. some of you will recall soldiers

, the army was called out to patrol the streets of the united states in the late 1960's buried every -- the long hot summers, and it was a matter of not whether there was going to be a right or several riots. the question was commute know, how many riots would it be. and remember, that in the late 1960's, the early 1970's, social disruption among violent social disruption, millions of dollars, many millions of dollars went up in flames. there were hundreds of people who were killed on the streets of the united states through social disruption. and there were many people who said that this was a dangerous situation. we need to do something to calm things down. we need to do something to show people who are, you know it --

there were people who are central we're back to of social justice or we're going to burn down. what do you say to such people? you need to show such people that we really have had a change in regime. that we really are going to repudiate white supremacist racism. we're really are going to change things and make our institutions open to all people. well, in order to do that, in order to do that relatively quickly and in order to do that relatively, you know, to do that vividly, to show this, people said, let's reach out, let's make special efforts to bring black people into places where they have not been before, and that was one of the justifications when they had rationales for affirmative-action, social

peace, legitimists in. i mentioned to others. there are a raft of reasons, but i will mention to mothers correctly. another argument for affirmative-action was that, well, institutions say that they have ceased discriminating against people of color. that is what they say. but what do you do if folks don't believe it? and suppose you have a faculty, faculty and some institutions. in the faculty says, you know, we don't discriminate against people of color. but the faculty is nonetheless, all white. well, you know, i mean, people know that for a long time various institutions that engage in racial discrimination. onlookers say, why should we believe you now? you say you are not engage in

racial discrimination, but will we see is a family that is all white. we want more than that. we want more than your word that you are not engage in racial discrimination. you may be lying. frankly, you may be practicing racial discrimination and not even know what. he may be in days -- you may be engaged -- you may be deluding yourself. you don't even know that you are gays in racial discrimination, but you are a. and so to show us that you are not we want some live bodies. that is the only way that we will believe that you are no longer engage in racial discrimination. let me give you one other rationale, one that came rather late in the history of affirmative action. and that is the diversity rationale which has become the prime rationale in many quarters , particularly higher

education, the first new rationale says, well, we want to engage in special efforts to bring in people from all walks of life, all sectors, all regions, all ideological dispositions, all races. ..

>> it has cost. what are some of the costs? there are a bunch just like there are a wide range of just of the cash -- justification in russia now there is also an array of cost. let me start off with a stigma. it is important because some people think immediately of the most vociferous critic of affirmative action at the united states supreme court. the most philosophers critic is the only african-american , clarence thomas and by far the most piscivorous critic. there are more very strong critics but no one on the

supreme court who takes the issue as personally or who is as intense in his criticism or as high style to affirmative action than clarence thomas the first thing out of his mouth is affirmative action does not help the intended beneficiaries. with the other people it does not help the people it intends to help it puts a stigma on the intended beneficiary. again he has been willing to

be very autobiographical. and it is the black person goes to the elite law school and graduates when that person goes for a job or seeks to get a job with the distinguished judge or seeks to get a job with anyplace selective the person that will be assessing this candidate is going to mark down the candidate to some degree because of affirmative action. by the way virtually every

selective law school has affirmative action. so if you have a black person that has graduated from harvard law school or yale law school, they go to the fancy firm they have a nice brownie point they went to the efficiency law school but the person assessing the candidates will say he has a nice halo to go to harvard law school but the person will dim the halo to say they went to the school but i will not credit this person as much as i normally would because affirmative action because they are

likely not to be as good as their peers. that is a bad thing. that is a cost. justice scalia a number of years ago he had a very powerful attack on affirmative action as a law professor. just imagine you are a person who needs an operation. very serious operation. life-and-death. and you try to figure out what surgeon you want to do this operation. you looking into account various surgeons than there is the black surgeon. the very difficult operation in only one life to live you say he may be good but if he

has gotten help along the way maybe this is not the best. the best of the year wray of surgeons i may have see you put a little * next to him. that is a cost is he right or wrong? i do think he is right that he knows that is the cost per brochure. it is a cost. the righties jack harvard law school i started last monday. first year contract. 80 students. i don't know this for sure but that very first day when i marched up to the front of the class, i bet there are some students may be an

issue just ask them. [laughter] but i cannot help but think those that think, a kennedy? [laughter] is the real harvard law school professor? or is the affirmative action ? could but maybe not quite as good as his colleagues? that is a cost. the thinking of it is a cost. are there others associated? sure there are. resentment. that is a cost. there are plenty of people around the united states. millions some have gotten

rid of racial affirmative-action. michigan did. there are many people around united states who feel a tremendous sense of agreement with affirmative action in the white people feel it is reverse discrimination. i am sorry but what has happened to the black people but i did not do anything. i don't want my kids opportunities diminished at all in the effort to help out the black people. people our resentful about that and that has had real consequences and that is a real cost. there is another argument fed is offered to from the

left. often made by people within the right to but there is a critique of affirmative action from the left that goes like this. affirmative action has led to the misallocation of political energy. that is because especially with affirmative-action and higher education that is the domain that has led to the struggle. people say listen. if a youngster is a plausible candidate for its mission to the leaked law school, private or public,

if there are plausible candidate to a selective medical school or law school, that youngster is doing rather well. we don't need to worry so much by definition it is a college graduate and almost by definition has done well because they are a plausible candidates if you can get into university of michigan law school you have done pretty well. so why in the world should it be the case that people like me or lots of other lawyers were people in various organizations, why should they spend a lot of time or energy or money to advance the interest of people who are already doing pretty well?

as opposed to what about the black kids in detroit to michigan who don't get out of high school? what about those who do get out but even then they are functionally illiterate? is it a misallocation of time or energy to focus of the racial communities versus those that are further down on the socio-economic ladder. pushing the point commo one might say it benefits those who are least in need of benefit to and provides little direct assistance of those who need it the most.

is there something to that? yes. the people who make these up not just fashioning these but it seems to me that these are substantial criticisms of affirmative action. , then you might say 10 minutes ago you said you are for it. i am. check out the title of my book "for discrimination" i am because i believe on balance affirmative action has been good for the united states over the past 34 years. i think affirmative action has played a very substantial part in the desegregation of important institutions of american life whether government or

private sector or employment with all sorts of different sectors of american life affirmative action has played an important role. i think part of the proof of the power of the sentiment of affirmative action is to the extent it has been practiced by people who say they are against affirmative action. step outside of the racial sector to give you one of the biggest examples. in 1980 there is a presidential contest featuring jimmy carter and ronald reagan. i'm against

affirmative-action stuff i believe individualism in treats everybody on their own individual as an individual is an individual idyllic to hear about gender or racial affirmative-action none of the group stuff but handle people on the individual merits. that is all reagan. presidential contest comes about and ronald reagan says the following that if i become president of united states, i promise to oppose the first woman to the supreme court. i will get the best woman i can find and if i am president, the best woman jurist i can find will be put on the supreme court. i tip my hat to ronald reagan he makes good on his

promise with sandra day o'connor to break the gender line at the supreme court. if you go back and take a look what were people were writing some people took him to task in said this is affirmative action big-time. he did not back down. said today o'connor goes to the supreme court. in part to because he basically said we can't have the supreme court of the united states that is all male with half the country is women? of the institution will lack legitimacy you cannot have an institution is powerful affecting everybody's interest and remained

monopolized by men. we have to change things and he did. it is that same ease those that has animated affirmative-action and i think it is good that has led to change and good change in america. it has led to younger people thinking i will invest in myself and in this country because they see a way forward. that is a good thing it has happened with women, blacks women, blacks, and others. i have not talked about a lot of subjects i have not even talked about the law was the supreme court but i will subside in the weekend

talk about any subject that you would like but i would like to take the conversations further you would like to take it you have been patient so far so i will subside the floor is no open to questions or comments or objections. thank you. >> another form of affirmative action is giving private schools giving scholarships to the smart kids who don't have the money to go. how do you classify that form that i think many of us have benefited? [laughter] >> that is a relatively uncontroversial because there are all sorts of distinctions made in life in many distinctions made

better not controversial. so we give a special benefit to people who have shown themselves to be especially skilled. a special benefit to those who have shown special effort. that is relatively not controversial. others there are distinctions drawn that we don't think about. if you get on the airplane tomorrow and fly on the airline i go to the kiosk what ticket you want? i want to fly first-class. of course, i never do but i want to i will shell out the many if i am willing to shell and out said here is your seat. no problem in nobody blinks. of course, we would if i

went up to look at the special part of the airplane you could sit in the black part or the white part. first class is a man in the distinction but the muddy distinction is the american way. it is the racial distinction that makes us anxious. and the fact of the matter is there is a good and the bad. the good is that racial distinction certainly the historical distinctions are would have put down people

of color. racial slavery. jim crow segregation. and thank goodness in america there has been a new fides bread repudiation of those racial distinctions. so when they pop up people think oh my goodness people think of invidious the bad stuff. that is good but one of the great triumphs of the civil rights revolution is the stigma. martin luther king, jr. and rosa parks. for the great john lewis did robert moses and i could go

on and on but one of the great things they did was make racist racial distinctions distinct and nobody wants to be associated with them. that is a good thing. and to the extent with that sentiment makes people anxious is ironic. there is a bad thing however that i write about this in the book a good bit and it is often overlooked but i think it has to be said. throughout the history of the united states any policy evincing the fortunes of people of

color, particularly black, has triggered resentment and opposition. let me give you an example. says was made by a florida slaveholder who was fuming. this is what he says to the abolitionist. you all are determined to to give the of nigger more privileges than the white man. slavery has not been abolished but this slaveholder is confronting the abolitionist already has in his mind footrope of of

reverse discrimination. if you get rid of slavery slavery, that means you want to privileged the blacks over whites. we care last but i will give you another a simple. and connected say -- let me give you somebody else. abraham lincoln's successor at the white house. his successor the president did andrew johnson. he vetoed the nation's first civil rights law civil-rights activity in 66. what did that say?

the civil-rights act of 1866 anybody born in the united states is a citizen of the united states and said from now on all persons will have the same rights as the whites not more. to enter into contracts to sue or me sued? the classic civil rights. andrew johnson vetoed that. why? because the act afforded'' discriminatory protection of the colored person. so i objected. the federal government has never intervened for anybody else not for white people. as for this citizenship

clause it will immediately make citizens of former slaves what about the good white people standing in line to become naturalized citizens of the united states? it is discriminatory protection i could go on for an hour next summer will mark the fifth anniversary of the civil rights act of 1964. segregation of senators like sam of north carolina and others they say if you pass title seven with a civil-rights act intel private employers they cannot discriminate on a racial basis that will open the door to quota is in

reverse discrimination against white people. my only point is i am not saying anybody who was against affirmative action necessary the race is with the balance of the benefits i disagree, but fine. are there plenteous of people who are against affirmative action in? because they perceive it events is the interest. that is part of this story also the realistic part that i think people often deny.

>> what about the gate and lesbian transgendered situation what does that mean with the difficulty of sharing saying this legally? >> are there institutions that make a special effort to include people of varying sexual orientations? i am sure there are. >> are they required to? no institution has to have. that is not exactly correct if the institution has been judged to be a purposeful racial discrimination

against a group, a judge could say you have to engage in racial affirmative-action for a certain period of time to make amends for past discrimination so the boston fire department for a good long time was under the affirmative action plan because the judge said you have been discriminating for a long time so they had a situation for every white person you have to hire a black person for a period of time to make amends. after that however, no institution is required to have affirmative action. exact one of the justifications for affirmative action that with public institutions is

subject to regular politics if you're in the state's in those people don't 1/2 affirmative-action utility affirmative-action you don't have to but if however institutions said to have affirmative action it seems the courts should but out to let politics do its thing. of people don't want to it, they don't have to but if they do then it seems they should be allowed to. >> we bought a house in long island by the university they had a number of different models and it was open to anybody.

i don't think there was any discrimination but we sold the house in the summer of 1970 the real-estate agent called the house and is very nervous filler is a black couple that wanted to buy the house said he was asking our permission it was so happy that my wife said it is fine. they looked at the house and decided not to buy it we were willing to sell it but we got a phone call from a neighbor had genu sure your house to a black person? i said yes i did it i just

said take you for calling. >> but there was racism hitting us personally. >> it is near levittown? >> this is more beyond huntington. >> i am interested in levittown of lead in the notorious for excluding black people. >> i did not know that. >> and housing discrimination has been one of the most important and consequential types of racial discrimination in the united states. frankly your story is not all surprising when you first began i thought you were going to say the realtor called to say are

you aware there is a restrictive covenant attach it is still the case that many people it is no longer in forcible but. >> before we bought the house in that development development, and there was a real estate agents in the huntington area and made a comment i don't remember the word that he used may be an expletive but the other real estate said they let the other people in that it was above board. >> sure. that is not all surprising. not until the 1968 that

housing discrimination was a lawful only after the assassination of martin mr. king, jr. the congress was willing to pass a law. housing discrimination was ruling -- willing to outlaw. >> i wonder how you answer people who think affirmative action has been around long enough or addresses the problem to get rid of it? >> there are many whets think about investors also would happen in the absence of affirmative action? we know. there have been a member

states have gotten rid of it brought with glasses or colleges look like? serviette those most selective institutions those numbers of latinos would go down immediately so for a number of years ago a federal court there was a case involving the university of texas the federal court said they could no longer take race into account to two students. what happened? there was an immediate decrease of the numbers of latinos, blacks have the flagship institution its university texas and it went down so precipitously that

the texas legislature passed a law very interesting that we would confront more and more they said we cannot take race into account we know the number of blacks will go way down not talking about reporting liberals, texas. [laughter] and not it will be intolerable with the institution and if that is minuscule, they said we will pass a new law that says if you are in the top 10 percent of your high

school class, you automatically get into the university of texas. no matter your test scores scores, no matter how you fare in competition. if you go to robert e. lee high school i am choosing the name of the high-school. [laughter] in the top 10% you automatically get in. at the same time if you go to booker t. washington high school you see what i am talking about in the legislators knew what they we're doing. they do in texas robert e. lee high school would be predominantly white. partly because of what you talk about. housing, anyone in the

united states the buck to the at booker t. washington and we thought we could get the numbers of latinos and blacks those latino kids will go to latino high schools if we say to upton% then the lead to more minority kids. if somebody says to me it has been around for a quarter century by first thing is what will be your will be yourard the attitude toward the institutions where the

numbers go way back -- way down? review it as intolerable need to do something else the supreme court case with the last term it turned out that not all whole lot happened. i was finishing the book last my publisher and editor with the supreme court case in the offing could hold that up. no. so could we say when the decision comes down i could work around it? no. by said okay.

i said i will think will happen for which turns out they really planted in did not do much. they did not step on the book is selfish reasons i am happy about that. and the top 10% plan is often referred to as of race neutral but is it race neutral? no. and now and it was in the race of the forefront of the mind. this is with legislation having strange bedfellows

those who also like the top 10% plan. these four white kids they too would benefit was a race in the forefront? it was. a lot of justice's sake this is race neutral it is just another case of what has happened so much people using the euphemism this was not raised a natural fit as some have written -- race written on the face it is right there.

>> with their race and class and gender as they think about college admissions did retention rates to use think african-american young men are not persisting that the same rate as african american women? vs a second-generation those are of african descent are highly represented in the elite institutions? and upper middle-class with those policies so given the intricacies in reference to affirmative-action from those perspectives? >> it is absolutely true you

can see it definitely a couple things it is a mistake for people to think affirmative action it is a relatively modest intervention it is important to but by no means revolutionary if we talk about higher education talk about the desegregation of the elites. that is what we are talking about. is racial affirmative action going to substantially affect for racial minorities? no. to take a advantage you

already have to have been doing pretty good to take a vantage of affirmative action in higher education you had to be a pretty good student to be in the running so we will need to supplement rations affirmative-action just because it doesn't do everything there for throw away? no. live it is my view of a modest intervention of historically disadvantaged groups but we need other things to address other equality in american life and it should not be forgotten at all that there are millions and millions in millions of poor white people in the united states

who need help. and we need to fashion interventions. for kipnis sake -- for goodness sake don't be offended with affirmative action but then what about for white people? i get hot and to the caller. some people say racial affirmative-action does not help for black people or poor white people you would think these are raging egalitarian fox the only time they can't is to get rid of racial affirmative-action they will never see a anything else or poor white people the

messages racial affirmative-action. so do we have a gender problems? gender inequality with respect to sexual orientation? yes. terrible inequalities with respect to the class line. millions who are enmeshed in terrible policy to craft intelligent programs to deal with that in with full discrimination high of four affirmative-action. i will amend that i of for sensible affirmative action. can you have affirmative action policies that are stupid? yes. of course, just list like you

could have stopped it -- stupid public policy. dash not for that may promote people to put them in a position where they will fail and not promoting people to positions that they will not give good service. i am not against stupid affirmative-action but sensible carefully detailed affirmative action is could over the course och of forecast 40 years that americans should be quite proud of to

allow older people to say i never would have thought it did is good we live in a country that we can say 30 years ago i never would have thought there would be a chief executive officer of united states that checks the black box on the census. good for the united states. others? [laughter] >> i am just wondering you obviously know with the perks of affirmative-action

if affirmative-action exist? >> a good question rachel and that was not even a plant. [laughter] i actually begin the book the beginning of the book is called growing up with affirmative action and i was quite concerned about this because i have been way out but this time what about my stake i'll say a couple things i've had an

interesting life along the color line board 1954 in south carolina deep south my parents left when i was pretty young they've moved to washington d.c.. i don't even remember. i once asked my father why did you move? he said we moved because i feared if we did not one of tousing is what happened. either i would kill a white man or a white man would kill me. they were refugees from the jim crow south. half of the black people from san francisco or los angeles or philadelphia you will hear a story like this.

after removed to columbia i spent my vacations there i began the book by saying i vividly remember going to see the movie then eddie professor. -- that was starring jerry lewis not the ones starring eddie murphy. that is the young people's version the one that i saw was jerry lewis i went to see "the nutty professor" with my cousin through the side door of the theater the covered people's interest -- and trends in reset in the balcony. i will get this from the point of view of a nine year-old because i thought this was great.

[laughter] because we had a strategic position in the balcony we throw stuff over. and pepper if the people beneath us with candy. was much more difficult for the people below to throw stuff on us. there is other stuff that was not so nice. 1962, 63, 64, those three summers that i spent with my aunt in south carolina i could not go to the public park. why? because it closed all public parks rather than desegregate. all public parks were closed those three years. let me just say this. you have been very patient

along the baseline now with affirmative action i of the affirmative action baby i have been helped at various3 affirmative action baby i have been helped at various points in my life. fed even my high-school. and then a crew of teachers that faber very close to those teachers, a number of them really showed me why, in part to they viewed it as part of their mission to assist young black folks get ahead in their society that is the same at princeton.

william bowen was very helpful to me. later over and over i have been a harvard law school mig-29 years i was all set with my third year of law school to go work with the naacp and defense fund as a litigator then i got a call from the dean of harvard law school that said we have heard nice things about you had you thought about teaching? i said no. but i am game. he said no. we will fly you up and over the course of 80 months he and his colleagues said do this or do that did got me into it. i have been benefited and i like to think i put those benefits to produce for

myself and my family and frankly for society. you have all been very kind and very patient. thank you very much. [applause] >> has a young child i tasted the fruits of segregation and i did not like it. ask my mother come if the other, grandparents and great grandparents why discrimination why racial discrimination? they say that's the way it is. don't get in trouble. don't get in the way. but in 1955 when i was in the tenth grade, 15 years

old, i heard the voices of martin luther king, jr. and i heard about rosa parks and that inspired me to get in the way. the 1966 my brothers and sisters and first cousins went to the public library to try to get a library card and check out some books. bieber told by the librarian that the library and was for whites only and does not for coloreds. july 5th, 1998 when back to the library in alabama for a book signing in hundreds of blacks and whites showed up and they gave me a library card. [applause] hawking with the wind is a book of faith, hope, and courage.

not just my story but the story of hundreds of thousands of countless men and women and blacks and whites who put that on the line in the history of our country to end segregation and racial discrimination.

>> [speaking russian] speeeighteen information that serves to our civilization but information has discredited itself as a way to know human beings. [speaking russian] >> translator: i am interested in human feelings and human turmoil but to try

to make some kind of a guess what is going on inside a people and what has meaning or what causes them to suffer. [speaking russian] . .