allies. i think we can look at the kind of leadership in a way that is described as network which i like for a lot of reasons including anne-marie slaughter it was my director of policy and planning wrote a very influential article about the move towards leadership in the world. it's one of the reasons i asked her to join me at the state department because it's not only round of the usual suspects. there are other organizations and entities that have responsibility and that's true not only in foreign policy but it's true and development policy where what we are doing now is trying to put together networks and partnerships to solve problems that government alone and even international organizations alone would not be as effective in doing so.

i just came out of the clinton global initiative in new york which was really born out of my husband's insight when he left the white house. they were so many different players now in in the world you you who had a role that could contribute to solving primarily development problems that we needed a vehicle to get them together to make commitments to do so. i think the same is true on the security side as well. we are never going to deal with the problem of cybersecurity and lessers of partnership between governments and we are never going to be able to deal with a lot of the trendline problems compound whether it's terrorism or poaching for human trafficking without having a broader network of invested players and leaders. so i don't know that it's some kind of a new philosophy.

it's more a recognition that is the way the world is evolving. if we want to stop elephant poaching and murdering and africa you have to use social media to inform patients that the elephant has to be killed in order to get it so you begin to engage citizens as themselves a chance as well as principles principles in making these decisions. >> i'm going to start grouping questions a little bit because i've a number of people waiting. i haven't gotten to the back of the room so let me take the lady at the checkered skirt -- checkered shirt and a gentleman sitting next to her next. go ahead company you first. >> i'm from the guardian. do you think that's right that there is a proper debate about the oversight of the u.s. and

u.k. intelligence agencies? speeches so we know where we are. the lady next to him. >> madam secretary amy kellogg from "fox news." i'm curious to know what you think -- >> it's a well-known new station. [laughter] c. i love the idea that the guardian -- i'm just having a moment here. i am curious to know what you think about the new momentum in terms of the u.s. and iran and these moves that happening day by day and the developments that look like there could be some kind of -- possibly in the not-too-distant future? >> these are both very important questions and robin says i need to talk quickly. [laughter] on the intelligence issue look

we are democracies thank goodness both the u.s. and the u.k. and we need to have a sensible adult conversation about what is necessary to be done and how to do it in a way that is as transparent as a candy with as much oversight and citizen understanding as can be. and i think that has to be you know the sort of framework because within that framework there are some things that i know from my own experience as a senator and as a secretary of state that are critical ingredients in our homeland security and in helping to protect people in other countries as well. and i also know that at least speaking of the united states much more personal information about many more americans held

by dissidents in the united states and by your government so how do we -- [inaudible] this is a new problem. it's a problem that's a little more than a decade over the capacities have corresponded with increasing our reach to consumers on the business side and increasing concern about security on the government side. people need to be better informed but i think you know it would be going down a wrong path if we were to somehow reject the importance of the debate and the kind of intelligence activities that genuinely keep us safer so i am all for opening up a more vigorous discussion about it. with respect to iran i think it's too soon to tell that there has been no change in policy. there has been no response to the outstanding offer by the

p5+1 two years ago now so when kathy ashton brings together the p5+1 negotiating group in geneva next week i will be most interested in hearing if the iranians are putting any meat on the bones of their hope that there can be a negotiation that leads to a resolution that is satisfying to them and acceptable to us. i think we don't have anyway of knowing that yet. >> coming down to the front now. two questions. would you come upfront please? >> madam madam secretary a presenter with bbc news. can i ask you to reflect on the changing leadership particularly the new vulnerabilities and i go back to what you mentioned in geneva in february 2011 about

the new nervousness the fact that the level of connectivity and no one can hide now. whether you are democratically-elected country or elsewhere and you mentioned the work he was doing with the state department. there are enormous changes happening to incredibly quickly including disruption of leaders believe leadership should be enacted. what are your reflections now? >> that's a fabulous question and it deserves a chatham house process. you know one of the things that i have learned over the years is watch the headlines and keep your eye on the trendlines decodes the trendlines are often much more important and the inner interconnectivity along with the interdependence is very much on my mind because the benefits are quite remarkable but so are the dangers and how

we balance that is one of the challenges of leadership. more transparency can help to fight corruption, can make information more readily available to people. alec roth is my ally in promoting internet freedom which we believe is the speaker's corner in hyde park something that just has to be embedded in the global consciousness that we have also seen more sophisticated use of government power to interrupt internet usage to target dissidents and opposition figures so we are in a formative period the outcome of which is not yet clear. i think it's imperative that government democracy and governments who value free

speech and open debate really unite in trying to protect the underlying values and that is going to be one of the most difficult questions that will face leaders in the next few years because of a concerted effort by a more closed more controlling societies. when you talk about leadership i think it's a great device for learning more about what's going on but it also can be a device that interferes with making tough decisions. you know if you are only watching how many followers you have on twitter or whether people who are responding like you or not that could very much creates static in the

decision-making process. we have got to get back to really looking clearly has the underlying values that undergird our societies and our government and not get diverted by the constant back-and-forth of the debate. use it for informing people and informing yourself but don't use it as an excuse not to make hard decisions. >> i'm going to take -- i'm going to ask three people. he will take them as you can based on time and i'm going to apologize. this gentleman here has been waiting patiently. >> rush just arrested.

[inaudible] what would you advise them to try to get them released? >> i will he reflect on that for a second. i don't offer to screaming or a loudly screaming one. [laughter] see madam former secretary at him no-caps is born london as it is today. [inaudible] do you think turkey and erdogan himself as prime minister is being kicked off sides? >> the young lady has been waiting here. come to the front.

let me say quickly i apologize. >> i would like to ask you there are many women in saudi arabia arabia -- what would you like to save them and you think what these women are doing would lead to a change? [applause] >> we have got that in the last question. >> on the piracy issue there should be a much greater international outcry over the russian arrest and charging the greenpeace activists with piracy. this is both on the merits an issue that needs to be resolved. i know a lot of governments are intervening and speaking out.

.. will decide what he thinks is in his country's interest, but i think that needs to be balanced by a real outcry. but it raises a larger issue which doesn't get enough conversation and that is the future of the arctic and how it is going to be governed and with the rules are and who gets to devise them and enforce them. i've participated in the arctict council which consists of the orctic nations with threeganw neighboring nations. we began working on agreements like search and rescue in the arctic, the oil spill recovery.

this is one of those issues an people are going to wake up in a couple of years and there's ind of thingsll k peopl going on and people will say whh didn't we doin something abouteo this? and the fact is yes countries have jurisdiction in their waters and they can enforceeds e their law on the riewlts of the road -- rules of the road, to speak, in the rules of the arctic. with the changes in the environment, it's going, an increasingly trafficked part of the world. we had a great agreement in the 1950 on the antiarctic which preserved different issues in the arctic. i think there needs to be go back to the u.n. question. there needs to be an more intense effort to support the arctic council and international bodies in helping to make the rules. >> okay. i think that prime minister was a very strong supporter of the syrian uprising, but as i'm sure you know he had other challenges

at home that he had to deal with. but among them were his ongoing efforts with the kurds inside turkey, and some of the activities of kurds in syria began to complicate that. and there's also, as you know, a large alawite population in southwestern turkey. that began to complicate it. everybody has politics. [laughter] it doesn't matter what kind of government you have. his politics became much more challenging for him. i think he remains a strong voice for the humane treatment of refugee. i think what turkey has done in receiving so many syrian refugees and putting them in conditions that were above what might have been expected for refugees had renounce his credit. i think he's got to sort out a

lot of different challenges. he i think remains committed but without a water-base on which to operate, i don't think you're going see him doing more than he's doing right now. and i think that that is unfortunate. i think if there were more movement at the same time a greater international effort he might have been to be participate and lead more effectively. on the saudi women driving. i'm all for it. [laughter] and i think that, you know, it is an issue that is symbolic, as you know very well. it is also, from my friends, who have lived in the kingdom saudi, nonsaw did i alike. it's a major hassle not to be able to go anywhere. to go shopping, to see your mother, drive your kids somewhere. just imagine. you can't do anything without

having a driver -- assuming you can afford a driver or having a male relative who has to be around to drive you places. in today's world it's just hard to even rash lose. i'm hoping there will be a decision made to begin to let women drive, and, you know, if there has to be some kind of phasing in of women drivers, you know, some sort of face-saving way neighbor could be -- neighbor can be worked out. it needs to be happen. it would be an important step for the people not just women, saudi arabia becoming more exeat five -- competitive and integrate to the modern world. >> again, my apology for the people's questions i didn't take. i looked you in the eye. i know, that. and i didn't get there.

we got -- if i may say so. ic a mast -- [inaudible] that's fantastic. both conceptual and practical. and -- [inaudible] as well. i think from my opinion it makes you -- [inaudible] [laughter] thank you very much for coming. for asking great questions. for those i didn't get to, president obama spoke about the problems with the federal health care exchange. he said there was, quote, no excuse for the computer problems that have been happening on the web site but that he's confident the administration will be able to fix the problems.

here is some of what he had to say. >> i recognize the republican party has made blocking the act a signature part of its idea. it seems to be the one thing that unifies the party these days. in fact they were willing to shut down the government and potentially harm the global economy to try to get it repealed. and i sure that given the problems with the web site so far they will be looking to go after it even harder and let's admit it with the website not working as well as it needs to it makes a lot of supporters nervous because they know how it's been subject to attack the affordable care act generally. but i just want to remind everybody we didn't wage this battle and just around website.

that's not what this was about. [applause] we wage this battle to make sure that millions of americans in the wealthiest nation on earth finally have the same chance to get the same security of affordable quality health care as anybody else. that's what this is about. [applause] and the affordable care act has done that. people can now get a good insurance. >> you can watch ought president's remarks at c-span video library and to let you know health and human services secretary kathleen sebelius is going to be testifying on capitol hill about the problems. a spokesman says she will testify publicly next week before the house energy and commerce committee. the date has not yet been set. the committee also has a hearing planned for thursday to talk about the health care issues.

we will have live coverage when that begins at 9:00 in the morning. again the psychiatry spokesman says she can't testify at that hearing because she has a commitment in phoenix on the same day. you can let us know what you think about the health care law. we did a survey under way it's set c-span facebook page. what is your health insurance exchange experience unlike is it good, bad, haven't tried yet or won't be using it. go to facebook.com/c-span and let us know. >> one thing that is interesting. i think it's critical now it was a certification of mobile devices because of of these devices that literally hundreds of millions of americans have they can look and see that fcc stamp because we have to ensure they do not interfere with each other. back in 95 there were not that many mobile phones going through the process. but now it's really important. you have a battle between apple and samsung and motorola and

others the need that certification. the of literally billions of dollars in advertising and then suddenly they are delayed by a number of days so that is a real cost. >> we've had several budget disputes and i think they stem from the budget control act of 1974. this occurs almost every year there is a crisis that goes on and yet after 40 years of this we still are not very good at figuring out how to operate the government. >> the effect of the government shut down on the fcc tonight on the communicators at eight eastern on c-span2. the chinese ambassador to the u.s. spoke last week at johns hopkins school of advanced international studies at the summit president obama missed because of the partial government shutdown the ambassador spoke for about an

hour. [applause] >> thank you very much for your kind words. good evening, ladies and gentlemen. it's really nice to be back. it brings back a lot of memories [inaudible] and every wednesday evening to this auditorium. at the time it was chaired by [inaudible] i have always wanted to have the opportunity to extend my appreciation. thank you for giving me the opportunity today. essey and chinese ambassador i would also like to think my wife

for her continued support with the united states. you are helping to train so many chinese diplomats over all of these years. an alumni association and the top echelon [inaudible] choose what about the policies between china and the united states. i have to confess the q&a session is better than the speech itself. i will not take up 30 or 40 minutes. i will make it relatively short and then we will have questions and answers.

first on china's foreign policy. and i promise i will not repeat the official lines. [laughter] rather i would like to offer my point of view on the official position and how this could be seen in the proper perspective because the chinese foreign policy has been a subject many people have studied, discussed, written about and lectured on. it is a subject that is very often misunderstood. so, every visit for a closer

look at chinese history and culture we have the formulation of the policy is extremely important. and to connect the dots of history, culture and the foreign policy formulation is even more important. the chinese foreign policy could be summarized in a very simple and brief formulation will. the independent foreign policy. here we have to keywords and i believe these two words actually defined the nature of the whole policy. first, independence.

why independence is so important for chinese foreign policy and for the country? of course china has been an independent country for many centuries. we cherished independence very much and it is one of our fundamental values. but from 1840 to 1949, china was invaded by foreign power and lost much of its independence. princetons, china's custom services from 1861 to 1911 was controlled by a british official china was coerced into 343

illegal treaties at gunpoint. within authority million kilograms for the war and china lost 1.6 million square kilometers. so during that period it wasn't treated with respect, justice or fairness on the world stage. they are remembered by the chinese nation as a century of national humiliation. this led to the chinese revolution in the 20th century and motivated generations of

chinese in the struggle with two national independence. the nation cherishes its independence but for china independence was almost lost and was gained. that is why they hold independence so dearly and it is only natural and that it becomes one of the fundamental principles in the foreign policy. but i must emphasize here that when we talk about this national humiliation, we are not talking about seeking revenge, we just

want to safeguard our independence and sovereignty like the rest of the world. we know that two wrongs don't. some are more equal than others is a horrible thing for all. we want to see history as guidance so that what was done to last in the past will never be done to anyone anymore. and that will lead me to my second keyword, peace. how do we see peace in china cracks it is a proclaimed policy goal for almost all the nations of the world.

but at the same time we have witnessed numerous breaches of peace. torment is everywhere in the global village is still a task for the international community. what is the special significance of peace in china there are many practical considerations for peace but today i want to focus on a factor but is not so material but more profound and lasting and that is our culture. if we want to have just one chinese character for the chinese value it is this one.

this could be translated into many english words. peace, harmony, reconciliation and benevolence with many other swa. we believe that harmony can and should be achieved by accommodating diversity. in english it means harmony without danger. we also believe that the spirit brings good fortune to everyone will. the chinese term for peace if we look at these characters closely to think most of you recognize these characters.

if you look at them very closely it actually means and tranquillity is achieved by following the spirit. together they make peace with that is why the most pressing thing and indeed this has been the guiding principle for the chinese society over so many years in addressing all the issues within their group and communities. this is in our nation's dna and it is only natural that it

should find its way into our foreign policy. it is both the means and the end. it is with a matter of policy and a way of life. so, with the appreciation of the culture of the routes it will not be difficult to understand why china values piece so much in its foreign policy were and why it has been a peaceful settlements of the international disputes. of course we will use all of our strength and independence and sovereignty but this is just to make sure that our people can live in peace. we believe it must be confronted with the provisions of the united nations but other

international disputes should dissolve trippi salinas, negotiations and a mutual accommodation. remember that military might can really solve the global problems pursuant to this independent foreign policy of peace that we develop our relations in the united states. and nothing illustrates our foreign policy better than our relations with the united states because this relationship is the most important as well as the most sensitive. the most comprehensive as well as the most complex, the most promising as well as the most challenging.

thanks to the efforts on both sides over the past four decades or so, i u.s. relationship has been in great shape in spite of some ups and downs. the president in china and president obama of the u.s. met twice this year and they stay in close touch through correspondence and telephone. our leaders are just a phone call away from each other and had an occasion at the top level and a guided by the agreement between the two presidents the two countries are now together to build a new model based on respect and cooperation. this model is called upon by the

new realities of the world in the 21st century. it is the in conformity with a lack of interest of both countries and expectations of the international community. china and the united states have undertaken this together and showed the determination of both to break the cycle of the major power and to open up the prospects for the outcome. given this new model of the relationship there are going to be problems ahead but we will have no alternatives if we do not want to have a lose lose situation. this requires wisdom, vision,

trust, determination, and perseverance from both sides in order to succeed. three keywords. first, respect. china and the united states differ from each other in many ways. we have a few more people in china than you do here. [laughter] and in our country it's a little bit older than the united states. we speak different languages, different culture and even eat different styles of food. we have a very different matter of endowment and at different stages of economic development and certainly told a different forms of government. acquiring a comprehensive

knowledge of each other. a truly understanding the differences is even more difficult. because of these differences, we sometimes see things in a different light. our approaches to some of the global issues may not be the same. it is important to keep in mind that these are the products of history that cannot be changed at will kysa to -- it is to show respect to history and appreciate why there are the differences to lay the foundation for the constructive relationship. my second key word is cooperation. despite all of our differences, our common interests far

outweigh those and are still growing. economically we are each other's second largest trading partner. bilateral trade almost reached 500 billion u.s. dollars last year and increase of 200 pounds over our diplomatic relations between the two economies which offers great potential for the mutual and beneficial cooperation. in the fifth round of the dialogue having been in washington, d.c. last july there were substantial negotiations on the bilateral investment. on the basis of the negative

list it was concluded with a tremendous opportunity. in addition, china has just set up located in shanghai. it's not just a business opportunity but also china's reform and opening up. it's also an important international response of devotee where we both have permanent members of the united nations council. and together with other members will show a primary responsibility for international peace and security. moreover, we are confronted with so many common challenges. it's one of the biggest

challenges. also, food security. in alleviating poverty, national crimes, counterterrorism all calling for our efforts. our differences could be turned into a rallying points. economic [inaudible] is a good example of a cultural and educational exchanges are also areas where diversity means opportunities for mutual learning. i would like to commend contributions made before and we look forward to the fourth round of this conversation to be held in washington, d.c. in november.

my third keyword is responsibility. br great countries. our relationship not only affects the future of our two peoples, but also has a major impact on the asia-pacific region and the world as a whole so the stakes are high. we have to manage this relationship with a strong sense of responsibility. responsibility means being prudent. each shell respect the other major interest and concern. each should act cautiously on issues of concern to get their. neither should allow themselves to be taken advantage of by any third party and let other

people's troubles become our problems. there are always difficulties and challenges that the approach will produce positive results. we should always be our best effort to expend, interest and acknowledge the differences in a constructive way. responsibility also means taking the view to immediate gain but too much focus on them for a country like china and the united states we should have the capability to look forward and show there is a responsibility to look to the long-term

interest. so these are a few of my observations of this new model of the relationship between the two countries. the direction is clear but the real test is still before us. i have full confidence in our two great people and i have full confidence in our future. there is already no turning back. let's move forward together. thank you. [applause] i would like to give the honor of the first question to the dean. t want to come over here so the

cameras pick up the sound. >> first of all, thank you very much for that thought-provoking speech and laying out some of the issues the two countries have. you pointed out in your remarks and the importance of not only deepening the relationship between china and the united states but also cooperation between the two as both are now viewed in the context of the world order as the main stakeholder. we often think about the g to in the global power in the united states. so i was wondering whether you felt that the existing international institutions are appropriate and venues for china, the united states to

cooperate resolving jointly the global issues or whether there is a need for the new international institutes and framework created to address the reality of the global order between them. >> very good question now. i think about two types. we have the world bank in washington, d.c. and we have the united nations in new york and in geneva triet china is a member to all of these and we are doing our best to contribute to their work. basically it is after the second world war.

the very first world war with international order. they are here for the global peace and stability and prosperity and to again put him part. on the other hand, the second kind of the international institution is of the g20. both china and the u.s. are important members of the g20 and it is addressing international economic entities of the top level. the progress the g20 has made is very important in many aspects. but the fact that the developed economy and a so-called emerging markets are to discuss the

global issues. we certainly support that. so both institutions could really play an effective role and contribute to the global because of peace and china is certainly willing to take part. thank you. >> if i take the liberty of asking the second question -- [laughter] [inaudible] particularly the u.s. and china face many potential crises or things that could escalate and get out of control, think of north korea, taiwan, the south china sea and i guess my question is do you think the united states and china have adequate crisis management and avenues of communication where we can talk about alternatives

and crisis management and hopefully crisis prevention before they occur? do you think we coordinate our governments internally come adequately to manage these complicated problems klaxon >> roi huge bureaucracies are not always easy to manage. [laughter] increase in the communication on many of the international regional we are doing i think a quite a good job but one of the importance is as i sit in my speech is to show full respect to each other's major concerns and interests and on that basis

certainly call responses to the issue and maybe work together on these issues one. >> i will take the hands as i see them. yes, the young man here and then i will alternate sides will. smith and first time student here and my question is this your expectation for the personal rule has the ambassador juan ann arbor factors you want to contribute to this important position? thank you. >> thank you for the question and confidence in me. basically the role of the ambassador is the role of a messenger. the most important part for me is communication not only

between the two governments but also a deterrent to people what. sometimes the messenger also tries to be the message itself and my message is very clear. our two countries have to work together, have to work with each other, not against each other because this is the only option available if we want to have a win-win situation. i arrived in april to really do something in this regard. >> we will all turn eight sides. >> -- alternate sides. >> pleasure to see you and thank you for your contributions to the u.s.-china relations. i would like to ask a question

about the guideline of many years ago going back to perhaps 1991 will when he had some people say 24 or 28 character expression. but the core of it what it was often referred to is the four characters to keep a low profile but sometimes people translated as played your capabilities and bite your time although i never thought i was a very good interpretation. now this freeze in 2010 in a very important article that he wrote which was published both in chinese and then english, foreign ministry web site. quite unusual for an official to actually use that phrase in writing. it's been done a couple times. but we haven't seen it since then not mentioned in any major speech or article. so i wondered if you can comment on the relevance today for a

chinese foreign policy of the guideline of keeping a low profile. is this still the important? thank you. >> of course a lot of good things. [inaudible] with within china and abroad. it was quite clear and quite simple. the most important part is its own economic and personal development. we can never afford to divert the resources for other purposes so that's why we have to keep a relatively low profile internationally not to get involved in disputes and

conflicts that are not related to less. that is the basic message. but that is changing of course. china is developing and in the late-1980s so about a quarter century ago china is more room to collect and stronger than what we were at that time. we are fully aware of the need to take up more international responsibility and this is a process that takes time and the basic philosophy behind the teaching i think is still a prize. actually this is the basic philosophy. you have to be modest and, don't

overestimate your own capabilities, try to do things within our limits, try to work with others and what i say about this concept is clear and. thank you. >> i will go to the back. i see a hand off on the far left their. the one that's leaving. >> thank you for your speech. i am from azerbaijan and i wrote [inaudible] on the president of the azerbaijan. to make it clear for everyone sitting year the american dream but the chinese president

mentioned the chinese stream. could you give an explanation what does the chinese stream mean? [laughter] >> i don't think it is very different from the american dream. i always believed people all over the world will have very similar aspirations. they want to have a good job and a stable me the increasing income, very good medical care and a good education for their kids and of course they want stability in their own country. so these are the things mentioned when he liked it when

in the 18th party of congress, november of last year. i think for all these things people in china and the united states and elsewhere they do have very similar dreams and the task for the government is to make sure people will be able to win have their dreams come true so i don't think there is anything more profound or larger than that. it's very simple what. if people could be better off in the future than now then you have your dreams come true. thank you. >> stand up so they can see you were.

>> i guess i will have to speak loudly. thank you for the thoughtful talk. i'm a former diplomat and i think i know that in diplomacy and foreign affairs the most difficult questions arise when different aspects of the goals and policies and principles come into conflict with each other. and you mentioned in your talk that china would be defending its sovereignty and also be pursuing peaceful relations with your neighbors. lots of us are concerned about the situation in the east china sea and south china sea where sovereignty and peaceful relations seem not to easily be brought together. and i wonder if you have any broad thoughts about how china and its neighbors can best come

up with an outcome which all of the participants will see as harmonious and consistent with their own basic interest. >> well with our politics have been consistent. we certainly want a stable relationship with all of our neighbors and we are working very hard for that. ..

these territories are left over from history. they have been there for so many years. or even so many decades. and they have to work out to a bilateral dialogue between china and the countries. and if the conditions aren't already yet we have the patience to wait. we're not in a hurry to resolve all of this overnight. this is -- unfortunately, one provocation is made we have to respond. we have to restate our position

clearly. that's about all we are doing. we are just responding to some of the revocations. we're certainly -- an escalation of tension in our region is something we don't want to see. we hope that others will think alike, and it will be a meeting of the minds. >> thank you. anybody in the back want to get a hand up? okay, in the far rear. >> hi. my name is -- i'm a student here. my question is concerning japan concerning japan is a major treaty ally of the united states. there's been a lot of naicialtist anger in recent years in china toward japan. and spons in japan there's been a lot of nationalistic assertiveness. how do you see this --

do you see this relationship improving? if so, how? >> thank you for being that -- asking that question. i was ambassador to japan a few years ago. i still have a large number of friends in japan. china and japan, we are neighbors. you cannot change your neighbors. you can't move away from your neighbors. [laughter] so we stand -- [inaudible] relationship with japan. of course, in the past japan invaded china and brought about huge suffering for the chinese people. we certainly don't want to see this happen again. 35 years ago, china and japan con cliewted -- concluded a bilateral treaty of

peace and friendship. five years ago two governments concluded a statement for these strategic relationship of a mutual benefit and we are still firmly committed to that. what concerns us in japan is some disturbing tendencies in japanese politics. japan's outlook, history, what happened in the past. maybe there are a few people, a few politicians in japan who believe that japan lost the war the second world war because of the atomic bomb dropped by the united states. and just because of that, --

they don't antagonize the united states everything would be okay for them. they don't have to take care other countries. if that is really what they believe, i think it's very wrong and very dangerous. [inaudible] not just by the two atomic bombs dropped by the -- u.s. but by peace loving countries and peoples. the people of the united nations. including china and the united states. [inaudible] just by some weapons but by the strong will and determination of

the people of asia, the united states, and europe. i think politicians in japan help to realize this is the post world war to international order. you cannot change that. we are already concerned about such tendencies in japan and what it means for the united states in the interest of china of the united states of other asian countries and of the global order. so i think this is maybe the most important issue between china and japan. and this is a matter of principle for us. i know such of you may not represent the majority of

japanese people, and i hope the japanese people and maybe together with all of us here will make sure that such a tendency will not dominate the future direction of the country. thank you. >> jonathan? up front here. >> yes, jonathan the brookings institution. it's good to see you in the neighborhood again. i thought i would try to raise an issue about -- i hope it doesn't sound overly academic but about the structure of international relations. china continues to resist. any suggestion there's a g-2 on the other hand, as you have noted, we're in a hybrid world where we have on the one hand traditional institutions of the post world war xii era and newer institutions we grapple with.

left unstated is china emphasized the desire for new framework or concept of major power of relations. what i'm curious about is whether or not the assumption of this framework applies only to the united states and china or something we could generallyize beyond the two states. if so, if i could ask you, would you care to offer us an estimate of who are the great powers? who is entitled to the responsibility? [laughter] you can be a student again. >> thank you very much for giving me another exam. [laughter] you see one of the basic principles is all countries are equal. large or small, weak or strong, or rich or poor. this is still one of the

principles. so -- -- [inaudible] determined by only the few so-called major powers alone. on the other hand, countries have different capabilities, and they should pick up different responsibilities. i think that is why we have -- [inaudible] because in term of countries accounted for maybe about 80% global trade and imagine the finance and so on. they have to work together to make sure that the global economy and is stable and they're going have a higher stakes than some of the other countries i think i would have to --

a balance between the principle of -- that all countries are equal ash they should have an equal say, on the one hand, and the reality, some countries have greater and they should be ready to make greater contributions. [laughter] >> the young lady midway in this section in the purple. >> hello, my name is -- [inaudible] i graduated from university and now. my question is a little bit personal. you are our dearest chinese alumni and schoolmate, and do you have any suggestions for it

and maybe from china or america -- [inaudible] [laughter] to make contribution to the world peace like mainly i'm talking about the china and the u.s. relationship after i graduate. thank you very much. well, already with the career professions -- china foreign service. so i knew when i was in here what i needed. i think most of the students here are just from college graduates or undergraduates here. i think whatever you have done

here will be useful in your career. but in the largest sense, what i talk about here about the relationship of china, the common future, we're really up to you to the younger generations. i think as a relations between -- we have to be handled -- [inaudible] i hope that the students will, first of all, you have to pass all the exams given by your professors. [laughter] and go get very high mark here.

then when you -- when you join the government or the private sector or whatever. you can really make sure that you will and your children will have a better future. and you'll have a better sense of the international situations. we still have too many -- [inaudible] today. but the world yours. [laughter] >> i saw a hand shoot up here. [inaudible conversations] >> hi, my. i'm a second-year student and a graduate from the university. today i've been so grateful to see you and thank you for being here. my question is, like, realist always believe, like, war or military is a zerosome game.

what you proposed and our country proposed as a new major of country relations seem to be a win-win game, and a nonzerosome game. so what do you think this sort of new model can be apply to the strategic relations between china and the united states relations and how this could solve this diser -- zerosome game problem. if there is any problem. i think this new model of a ripe is calmed for our countries are so interrelated aspect.

it will also affect china because it would have a huge amount of american debt. [laughter] [laughter] >> why are you looking at me? [laughter] i don't know if it was good or not. [laughter] really, you cannot have the zerosome game. you cannot say one side will be 100% winner, the other 100% loser. it's not quite possible. besides we are faced with so many challenges that cannot be handled by any sing the country. not even the united states, the most powerful uncountry in the world like climate change, energy needs, disease, poverty, terrorism. all countries have to work together because if china --

if we fail, we fail together. it would prevail together. and also, between china and the united states there are major confidence something neither can afford. it's something neither can wait and afford to lose. i think this is really the reality we are faced today. we have to be careful because -- [inaudible] our two countries would have the wisdom to understand the issues to understand the new reality and we have the capability to

-- [inaudible] is there somebody in the distant back? i don't want to shortchange them. i see a hand in the back. hi. i'm a second-year student here. and again, i would like for you taking the time to speak with us. so my question is also related to japan as well. so with the recent two plus two meeting in tokyo in which secretary hagel and secretary kerry discussed expanding the him tear cooperation between the united states and japan, and also taking in to account japan's recent policy shift toward expanding their military capabilities, i was wondering what your comments or what your opinions are and how that

effects china-japan relations but also u.s. and china strategic relations. >> thank you. first of all, i want to say i'm happy to see many promising young people from china. also, thank you for the question. i think basically they are two outlook for asia-pacific. one believes that this region is economically the most promising dynamic regime in the world. so we should turn this in to a market for the opportunity for everyone. that's cooperation and economic development and integration. and the other outlook this is a place full of confidence and

danger. what they are really look at is to turn it to a possible battle field. so these two views represent two very different futures for asia-pacifics. i hope everybody could make the right choice to borrow a familiar phrase from one of your former presidents "to be on the right side of the history." i think the first view certainly represents the -- of all the people in the asia-pacific. including china, united states, and japan. and the second future, the second outlook we're -- to a great damage to all of us. i think -- i hope all the people especially the leader of the country as the politician and scholars would be very careful about it. and make the right choice.

thank you. >> one last question. the lady there, yes? >> hi. [inaudible] from a long time ago. my question is china on north korea. do you think -- what do you think will happen? will china continue to take some measures to put pressure on north korea or will they sort of stay where they are now? thank you. >> as i said, it would have so many neighbors. japan is one of them. korea is another. [laughter] but we certainly have a long standing relationship with korea with the dprk. but our position on the korean peninsula is clear.

first, we stand -- [inaudible] against any nuclear program, nuclear weapons on the peninsula . we are both in favor of the united nations and the revolution against dprk when it's conducted [inaudible] it this is one of our fundamental goal on the korean peninsula. number two, we also stand for peace and stability. this is interest of the current people themselves. this is also in the national interest of china. because it would have a common border with the dprk. we are neighbors. and confidence and -- of war on the korean peninsula was certainly china's national security interest. and never allow to happen

again. number three, we stand -- because first of all, this is always our preferred option for addressing this. and besides we're going to -- pressure alone nuclear on the korean peninsula. and they made variable effort and con try tbiewtions to resolving this, unfortunately it got stuck for the last few years. but still this offer is the best, at least the most feasible for negotiations among all the

parties. so i hope that the party talks could be early -- when the conditions are ready, of course, and the six countries can really move forward and work hard or some arrangement for long term stability in northeast asia. well, i hope you'll join me in thanking ambassador cui tianka. [applause] turning to the federal health care law. president obama talked about the federal health insurance exchange website today. he said there was, quote, no excuse for the computer problems. people have been experiencing with the site. the energy and commerce committee will be holding a hearing on thursday looking in

to those problems. witnesses have not yet been announced, but health and human service kathleen is not expected to attend. she may testify next week. you can watch this week's hearing live on c-span2 scheduled to begin at 9:00 a.m. eastern time. and let c-span know what your experience with the health care exchange has been like. we have a survey underway on facebook. good, bad, not tried it yet? will you not be using it? join that conversation online at facebook.com/c-span. one thing that is interesting -- it's not that important in '95 i think it's critical now the certification of mobile devices because the devices, the devices that literally hundreds of millions of americans have. they can look and see the fcc stamp on it. we have to assure they don't interfere with each other. and back in '95 there weren't

that many mobile phones going through the process. but now it's important and big. we are a huge battle between apple and samsung and motorola and others. they need the certification. they make the plans and literally billions of dollars in advertising. whatever the plans were, they get delayed bay number of days. it's a real cost. >> we've had several budget disputes blare and i were discussing before i think they stem from the budget control act of 1973. it occurs almost every year. there's some crisis that goes on. and yet, after 40 years of this, we still aren't very good at figuring out how to operate the government. >> the effect of the got shut down on the fcc. tonight on ""the communicators" on 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span2. the head of african affair for the state and defense department testified on capitol hill last week about efforts by

somalia, the united states, and the international community to eliminate terrorist threats to somali security like the al qaeda-affiliated alsha -- al-shabaab. it's just under an hour. [inaudible conversations] i would like tow welcome our second panel today, first, andre, senior research fellow at the strategic studies. founder of the heritage study in mooing -- mooing mooing key shoe.

i would like you to make your opening statement, if you might, to the committee. it is honor to appear before you today. as requested in the invitation, i'll focus my deny international effort to defeat the terrorist group. i would be grateful if my full written statement could be included in the record. it's been weakened as a national insergeantty force. retains the capability to target gorilla against target -- this was vividly demonstrated in september when al-shabaab linked gunman stormed the shopping mall. without additional efforts t only matter a of time before the group and the affiliate undertake additional deadly attack. atsha baseball currently lead by the group ahmadinejad has controlled much of south central

somali 2006. the tide has turned dramatically. it they partnered with former clan malicious that integrated to the somali national army. they pressured to withdrawal from mooing key shoe in 2011 and seized neighboring towns. in 2012 ethiopia and kenya worked. instead the group has shifted the forces to "safe haven" that lie just outside of the reach. example include broadway and lower. from these locations it employ the intelligence wing to place ied and carry out assassination and suicide bombings. they is comprised of hard liners

loyal. statement, al-shabaab's regional governors are essential component of the networking. -- allow terrorist training camps to operate, raise funds through taxes and extortion, conduct recruitment. as the attack shows -- capability. these individuals including both somali and foreign fighters are loosely under the control. nay are dedicated to exporting terrorism across east africa and work closely with affiliates. since becoming the group's leader he personalized command and control and marginalized senior leaders who disagree with his decisions. long standing tensions between him and the deputy broke in to open violence in june of 2013. many analysts hope this internal conflict would weaken however, it's not the case. for several years he has been

building a splinter faction and taking control of the group's funding and operational planning. al-shabaab's long-term strategy remains a matter of debate. nay may be playing a waiting game. retreating from large battle and using terror attacks to stay relevant as long as possible. it's hoped that it will change allowing al-shabaab to resurge. this would be the case if the somali government fails, if al shall -- can align with clan-base oppositional groups. the hard line supporters have no illusion they impose a extremist state if the regional forces don't make the progress they have done and the somali federal government works to stabilityize the area. in this case, the group may be satisfied managing a clan delawares -- struggle it that commits

violence for as long as possible. they lost control of key cities, the group recalibrated the approach and remains and my. united states and the somali and international partners need to redouble effort to roll back the group while supporting the federal government to consolidate security gains. this requires a combination of efforts. first, we must revive the regional offense against al-shabaab. second, it is critical to develop a capability and professional national security structure in somalia that can fide sight by side. third additional diplomacy and foreign aid are needed to support the federal government and the local administration with which it is working to oppose al-shabaab and build a federal structure. they need to negotiate power and resource sharing deals that allow the country's federal structure to function. finally, we must continue supporting the neighbors. particularly kenya, where the west gate attacks took place,

but also tanzania and other countries that serve as hosts as the al-shabaab-affiliated regions. thank you for the opportunity to testify. i look forward to your question. >> thank you very much for that testimony. we look forward to the opportunity to ask questions, with if i might. >> chairman coonses, ranking member flake. thank you for the opportunity participate in the important panel. one year after the formation of the first -- over twenty years there are reasons to be cautiously optimistic future of somali. the somali people are term -- determined more than ever to reclaim the dignity. they have also identified a common enemy to peace and stability. citizens across the country are -- destruction and downstair with construction and hope. sign of economic vie brans are emerging.

and this is where the issue comes in and it's important for the united states to support the flow of remit sincerity to the people of somali. with regards to security gains, with regards to security gains are less encouraging. dispute losing control of most major cities in somalia, al-shabaab fighter remain a throat peace. a place where i came from is under assault. a key challenge to the restoration of stability is the chronic weakness of app apparatus. command, control, -- is weak due to the federal fragmentation of malicious forming the security forces. training on protection of vulnerable civilians remains poor and uncoordinated with many countries running various programs. the forces does not reflect the

somali people. the u.s. government has provided significant report to the forces. and the peace keeping missions for many years. the support from the u.s. and other development partners is literally all that is standing between the collapse of the federal government and the survival. the u.s. government must; however, utilize the support innovatively. tactical counterterrorism measures, surgical strike were necessary for some time. now there's a greater need for strategic partnership. resources must be services that have both qualityive and quantititive advantage over the enemy. they have done an excellent job of recovering region from the tear any. they cannot become a substitute for somali forces. that can ultimately defeat al-shabaab. security is linked to political

accommodation and reconciliation, which is why partially smol will adopted a federal model of govern nabs nearly ten years. a consensus on which time remains illusive. they failed to translate the federal vision to viable member states. frustrated with a lack of progress at the national level, communities across the country are taking matters to their own hands and are carving out thief come along clan lines. the dual-track policy which lead to distribute u.s. engagement with sub national entity sent the long signal that was promoting sectarian policy at the expense of a federal government. the process of fed rating the country faces three enormous challenges. first, provisional is deeply ambiguous about the shape and future of the federal government of somalia. and division of power. the meaning of federalism is broadly misunderstood by the somali people. many of whom are legitimately

nervous about an overly centralized state. it's compounded bit absence of a effective judicial branch. second, state institutions that are supposed to play a leading role in the national dialogue are yet to be established. the intr state commission and the implementation commission. these delays are inexcusable. the federal government garnered an unprecedented support from the somali people following the inauguration in 2012. won an unparallel backing from the international community including formal recognition by the u.s. government for the first time in 20 years. easing of the u.n. embargo, monthly budget support from turkey, and expanded african

union peace keeping mission. they believe it has fallen short of using the positive momentum to advance the dialogues with key domestic actors including existing federal member states. third, neighboring countries are sometimes seen as undermining state building efforts by encouraging and sometimes helping with the formation of more sub national entity to suit their own interest. while ethiopia and kenya face real threat from somalia as we have seen, their interference -- the somali to take place toward the end of 2016. it this is not impossible. while is not impossible, it's highly improbable given the mag attitude of task ahead. it should remain an admiral goal for the current government. we must not substitute state building for process building. elections are not an end in

themselves. but rather a means toward the more vital objective of viable state of forming a viable state. that includes finalizing the constitution, settling on federal structure, and adopting political party laws. the scheduling facing process of -- are tremendous but not insure how aboutble. it's deeply flawed document that contradicts itself and put future member state and the federal government on a direct collision course. somali people and their government need urgent assistance in this regard. priority must be given to the formation of the review and implementation commission and boundary and federation commission. once established they will need financial and human resources to engage in general national dialogue. there a number of american institutions with relevant experience that can provide essential support in this area. second, assistance to somali people to the smomly government must be contingent upon

measurable game. it must be hemmed accountable to the own national plan if none of the commission is established by early next year, somali people will lose faith in the government's commitment to offer something more than the predecessors. the u.s. and the allies should assist the somali people to develop heck noifm hold the government accountable. they have been and will continue to be a powerful force for progress. the role of civil society is worryingly absent. as an important ally to kenya and ethiopia. they have an moral obligation to ease cert pressure to allow the somali people and the government engage in a national reconciliation. the u.s. should don't -- mitigating the security threat

they face but kenya and ethiopia must realize only a democratic strong and vibrant somali state on the borders is a greatest guarantee of prosperity in the region. mr. chairman, it is a time easy to dismiss it as beinger reparable. but as those of us who have given up their comfortable life and family and returned home can attest to progress is possible and it's happening right now. somali has made a profound leap from where it was three and a half years ago when i first started going back home. at the time al-shabaab controlled 75% of mogadishu and almost 60% of the nation. the notion of government was contested acontinue the country. with the support of the -- somali is slowly emerge bhapg it needs it relentless effort.

i thank you and the subcommittee for the opportunity to present my view and happy to answer any questionings. >> thank you very much. >> thank you for the opportunity. of course, the group has been working on somalia since 2002 from our office and we frequently travel the country for research purposes. conditions in somali have improved. amazon now including kenya, has with the help of ethiopia the somali national army. is a serious strategic set back. it has a new provisional government that is better than previous administrations. the international community quickly recognize this government and september it pledged to $12.5 billion in support. however, the federal government only has the fact of control of

mogadishu in part of the south. shall baseball is down but not out. it controls used -- south and central somali and able to hit high profile -- security forces and rebuild. security mogadishu and elsewhere remains dependent and likely for some time to come. neither can impose a peace, stability is only possible through a nationwide process of negotiation, power shariaing, and improved governance. arguably, somali's most intractable issue is a question of federalism. simply put, the there remains serious disagreement between those who like to see somalia become a strong unitary state. one that can stand up to the neighbors and those that fear a centralized government would be dominated by a i think is clan or group of clans. agreement on the power of the federal government need to be

thrashed out quickly otherwise they risk embarking on piecemeal approach. the federal government quickly ran in to trouble on the issue of federalism in jubilant in southern somalia which was exacerbated by ambiguity in the constitution about who leads the process of creating the states. neighboring countries also have significant security interest in somalia and all sizable forces in the country. beyond the horn, muslim somali is very much link to the middle east and egypt, al-shabaab and al qatar, and turkey are active in the country. th -- approach of state building in somalia. however, many somalis see as fly keep their country weak and divided and thus weary of international pressure to involve power. kenya forcefully intervened in

2011 to create the own buffer state. subsequently joined. they have thrown export and not the federal government. publicly kenya is looking for an exit but somali see the claim with create skepticism according to u.n. monitoring group. kenya politician and officers are earning money from the trade including ban charcoaled, pass through and more important most believe kenya wants to control southern somalia because it has large oil and natural gas depositive it. active interest. it allows somali to play different states off against each other particularly muslim

states against ethiopia. international cooperation is also complicated by a host of international organizations including the u.n., the african union and the -- no clear dwig of responsibility. the the greatest problem remains the -- of the au and u.n. it has military peace enforcement responsibility. having been there for the l.a. four years in fielding a forof other 17,000 troops is a major political actor. while the u.n. has a political mandate, it is very much involved in security policy, security sector reform, and issue of federalism. both missions are headed by special representative who reportedly get on well but they and the staff have no clear instructions how to share responsibilities. the west gate mall attack up has been written about the terrorist

attack. it's important this is long been expected and certainly not the first only the most instructive. it is important that the ken began government prevent a backlash against the somali and muslim population unless discuss what alsha back -- was seeking. what do they do in the opinion of crisis group it on the type of federalism the federal government will implement and the -- new state adhere to a rule-based process. it should don't support local and reejtal administration capacity building but this must be linked to reconciliation and measure to ensure minority clans are represented in the government. currently it's very different for eight agencies to -- insecure area. it's in these areas where assistance can be the greatest benefit. congress should -- high reward fund managed by the office for transition initiative

for symbolic project. congress should also note that the 2016 elections are not far away. they are already behind schedule and election should be quickly funded by donors. more attention should be given to countering radicalization in somali and the horn. the u.s. should be giving quiet assistance to such programs. the u.s. government should also place much greater emphasis on reconciliation both with farm factions and on national level between clans. it should provide support local peace and reconciliation that can need to larger regional conferences. it should also provide the new u.n. mission with all the capacity necessary to coordinate assistance effectively. and should insist the federal government does so effectively as well. the state department and dod should also start working with amazon to clearly articulate a multi-year exit strategy for the intervention in somali. this should be linked with

incremental support that the creation of a professional mixed clan national army. lastly, the u.s. should convene an international working group to help create a transparent mechanism to monitor revenue collection in somalia's major port and airport. including an oversight board with a international and somali composition and supported by export as done to ensure that port revenue use -- inconclusion, somali remains an weak and fragile state. the security is depended on the external forces. it is at an inflex point where it's becoming real. if and only if the international community works together toward that goal and somalis honestly confront the government challenges facing their country. i thank you and look forward to your questions. >> thank you. , doctor hogendoorn hogendoorn and work back to the previous.

first, i'll ask of all three of you question about the security situation and the financing of shall baseball and what are the strategic challenges we face? and then, second, about federalism. all three of you had some interesting comments about federalism. on the first question, my sense is that al-shabaab has been principally financed through the trade when they controlled part of the coastline. and through the extraction of taxes from those communitieses they control. and the u u.n. monitoring group described how the regional charcoal trade help finance al-shabaab. what should we be doing here forward to ensure that al-shabaab loses the financial support to continue operations, and what do you see as the most important next step to strengthen amazon carry out the mission of stabilizing the security of the country to make possible a broadly representative inclusive and

professional -- i would be interested in all three of your answers to that set of questions. if we, doctor hogendoorn -- in order, please. >> excuse me. as i mentioned before the charcoal trade is actually banned bit u.n. security counsel and i think that the united states should do more to force its partners to in fact adhere to the prohibitions. i think gnat real challenge with amazon is that it is essentially reached a point where it is extended to the point that can be no longer push farther out and either the international community needs to provide more resources to amazon to increase the true capacity and improve the ability to reach out, or i think more needs to be done on

the political side to stabilize somalia from a political perspective. >> thought on we reduce financing to al-shabaab by whatever means? i think the first thing, we need to know where the financing is coming from. and con vengal belief it was mostly coming from the cities that it controlled and the resources it controlled like al-shabaab and al qatar market. now that's gone, i think many of us are wondering with the financing still seems to be coming through. still control considerable amount of land in south central somali. t an attempt to try to recapture part of that land. i do, though, in relations toment to emphasize the importance of creating indigenous security force. i think it's ultimate where it

lies. ic it's considerably cheaper on the peace keeping mission which is necessary and needed and has done an remarkable job up until the moment. i think syria's attempt needs to be made by the somali government but by the international partner to try to rebuild professional inclusive security sector. >> what time line do you -- national security forces. it's certainly going take considerable amount of time in my view. iraq and afghanistan are instruct toif somalia in both of the time frame it can take. somalia only has 189,000 security forces. half of which are probably engaged in vip protection of

individuals and sleighses. and so, you know, clearly half of them are incapacitied from their main task of dealing with al-shabaab. >> if you might for amazon to be successful, they need -- several of you have recommended greater force projection capability and air lift and attack capabilities. if you might comment more about what amazon needs to be successful. what we need to do to restrict the resource and what's the transition look like to a incredible, national, somali security force. >> thank you, senator. >> starting with the issue of al-shabaab's funding. charcoal, when the movement controlled the port was the single largest foreign currency earner if the group. it also generated revenue by controlling road jux and levying taxes there. extorting money from businesses, which otherwise couldn't

operate. now it lost the control but it can tax the charcoal trade at the source of production rather than on ward destruction. this this sense, their control of the town impact any trade coming from mogadishu and and also to still make revenue off the charcoal business. so in that sense, more aggressive operations to actually dislodge shall baseball from other key towns are going to be the best and fastest way degrading their revenue earning ability and sustaining the movement in that sense. it is absolutely true that they need force multipliers.

they are spread out in multiple. so they are stuck using that limited number in a static security role. the fastest way for them to free up the sources and be able to deploy them in an offensive operation would be if the somali federal government work with local administration to actually craft consensual govern mans in the area. local forces particularly somali national army or other malicious forces. and other spailer of the peace process. federalism there seems to be a attention to be able to resist intrusion from ethiopia, from kenya, meddling by outside forces. one perception goes.

on the other hand there's a suspicious of -- because of experience. the government because of the strength of clans and because of the very different culture and political traditions across the country. managing these with a constitution in the current form has significant internal contradictions around what the federal structure should look like is quite difficult. it is very different from our own article of confederation period there are some striking similarities in that moving toward a healthy and functioning national government for purposes of security. taxation, control of port, control of trade is necessary. but there are significant internal concerns that mitigate against a strong unitary federal government. what role should the u.s. government be playing in advancing federal stour? did our dual-track policy actually hurt that process, and what do you recommend for u.s.

policy with regard to federalism and implementation going forward, if you could. in order. thank you, senator. the fact is that the somali federal government right now is a key actor. it's the key actor going forward in making decisions for the establishment of a true federal system that actually provides some degree of convergence between the local actors in major town across the region and the central government. but the somali federal government is currently only one actor on the scene. if we're talking about the locations where kenya, ethiopia, other forces are operating, if we're talking about those places where we need to fight shall baseball. there are other actor of concern. it's the jubilant authority. this is clan forces that are based working closely with ethiopia. it's the an ton use regional

administration and the self-declared independent state of somali land. in addition, there are many other local administrations local to the movements or other smaller sub clan based administrations. these are actually facts on the ground. there has been a great deal of concern that the u.s. dual-track approach was going to reenforce these in some way dismember somalia. it was going make it a weaker country. the fact is 20 odd years of civil war have decentralized it radically and made it remarkably weak country. the dpiewl-track approach allowed the dwriets engage at the cap at the same time to promote an agenda of convergence. maybe the language needs to be changed at this point in time. but that ability to support both level simultaneously is what is ultimately required to promote these power sharing and resource sharing deals internally within a town but between that town and

the central government. >> thank you. >> senator, it's a good question. i think it's important to highlight that somali people whenever they are in somalia today want some sort of a central structure. it's unclear in their mind. we're engage in research at the moment looking at this. what we found there are universal demands for. basic things in the debate on federalism. every somali wants to elect their own local and national leaders. they want to get government services closer to where they are. thirdly, they want to see an equatable sharing of natural resources. fourth, they would like to see a constitutional guarantee again government intrusion upon the government rights. we believe these are the four, you know, issues that can help and push forward the debate and the framework of federalism in somalia. what could the u.s. do?

i think the first thing is, really, the building and formation of the commissions that i talked about, the independent commissions to review the constitution. the boundary of federation commission, and ultimately the interstate commission. what the three commission can do with expertise are faa -- from the u.s. and institutions that are capable is lead a national dialogue. at the moment, there's virtually no dialogue about federalism at the national level. it's, you know, politicians are talking to each other. and mostly to advance, you know, a group or individual interests. but i think what needs to happen is a national understanding of the options of federalism. when we interviewed people across the country about, you know, if they understood options on federalism and confederation and decentralized state and rev -- revolution of the power. most people didn't understand what the options are. i think a civic education process is really needed but that needs to happen asi