and if we sit down together, if we seriously address these issues, i don't think we will face any problem in addressing these in solving these issues. cashmere of course it's a very difficult issue, and very difficult to resolve but i think by sitting and talking we will be able to find some way of resolving that, too, because that is a flashpoint. and not only the region but the whole world. and then any solution which can come about will not be able to come about unless the people of all, resides, put their endorsement of this people of india, people of pakistan, and the people of kashmir. and i believe that by talking we can -- and then, of course, we

can have economic relations with india. and there's so much we can do together by announcing a trade and economic ties with each other. >> prime minister, thank you very much. we are out of time unfortunate the prime minister has a scheduled to keep. i want to thank him for being here. thank you for being here, and invite jim marshall to the stage again for a brief presentation. >> thank you very much. [inaudible] [laughter] we try to be. spent thank you all. if you would remain seated while the official party leaves. thank you all for coming. [applause]

>> [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> legs and stomach, please edit from the -- please exit from the upper level of the auditorium.

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] >> we have more live coverage coming up thursday. the house energy and commerce committee will hold a hearing to take a look at the invitation of the health care law and the challenges faced with the enrollment process in the insurance exchange. that will be live thursday at 9 a.m. eastern right here on c-span2. we want to mention health and human services secretary kathleen so this is expected to testify about the insurance exchange rollout as early as next week. according to the u.s. labor department the economy added 140,000 jobs in september.

while the numbers did miss estimates, the unemployment rate fell to 7.2% from 7.3% in august. the government shutdown delay to the september jobs report bought about two and half weeks, the impact of the shutdown will not be revealed until october's numbers come out in a few weeks. the chair of the presence council economic advisers released a statement today saying in part there's no question >> c-span studentcam video competition asks what's the most important issue congress should consider in 2014. make a documentary showing varying points of view and be sure to include c-span video. the competition is open to all middle and high school students with a grand prize of $5000. this year we have doubled the

number of winners and total price. entries are due by january 20, 2014. how you need more information? visit studentcam.org. >> i never ever asked a negativs peon you wan i think it's insulting to theit abouon you want to talk to you. and it creates a bad impression about what you are doing. you're asking for someone's timu because you need informationl that will lead you to a better . understanding of your subject. u sometimes you get negative information when you really don'tdo want it and to haven'tn, even asked for it.reme i know. i remember calling a woman to ask her about a senate wives luncheon in honor of the first lady. she said to me, quote, i know to why you're calling. rep you want me to repeat those us nasty things that nancy reagansh was telling us yesterday about barbara bush. [laughter]

actually, all i wanted to findhn out was how much money the senate wives had raised for mrs. reagan's drug abuse fund. i in a telephone call i got more than it asked for, and i used every single word. [laughter] spent presidential history, political intrigue and american culture. biographer kitty kelley will take your calls and comments live for three hours beginning noon eastern sunday november 3 on both tvs in depth. in the months ahead look for other index guests including christina sommers on december 1 and mark levine january 5. right now online at a booktv bookclub, join other viewers reading walking with the wind by john lewis. see what others are saying and post your own comments. find out more at booktv.org/bookclub. >> the candidates into troy's

mayoral race debated over the weekend clashing on issues such as the city emergency manager fighting crime and he was in the neighborhood. mike duggan is the current front runner when the detroit mayoral primary but write in candidate. preserve as president and ceo of the detroit medical center. his opponent is wayne county sheriff benny napoleon. this debate is just under one hour. >> from cbs 60 do, this is a special "michigan matters." the 2013 my your old debate ♪ ♪ >> moderator: high there and welcome to the "michigan matters" special presentation. the great debate. detroit is this is what the world on wheels with so much has changed for the motor city and it has been found at the challenges brought on by shrinking population, shrinking tax base and major financial woes. with so much at stake this election is more vital. which is why we're pleased to welcome the two candidates who want to be detroit's next mayor.

mike duggan and sheriff benny napoleon who are appearing here in the first televised debate. it's good have you guys want to see. for the next hour we'll hear from them in a conversation we help provide you with a deeper look at both of them. all of us you are pleased to partner with her sister by the station, wwj in bring it is important for. joining me in the questioning is cliff russell, tom jordan, and thompson. if you're tweeting are using facebook be sure to use hashtag cbs 60 to debate. the rules for this conversation as agreed to by both candidates are very simple. each panelist will ask a question of a candidate who has 60 seconds to answer. the of the can and also at 60 seconds. and each candidate has an additional 30 seconds to respond if he so chooses. as agreed to, we will kick it off with a 60-seconsecond openig

statement of by flip of the coin mike duggan will go first. duggan: i want to start by thanking cbs 62 and the michigan chronicle filing giving us a chance to talk directly to the voters. my name is mike duggan and i'm running for mayor because i believe we need change in this city. i was born in detroit because he employed i lived near franklin shed. i went to high school in the city and i've worked in the city every day for the last 32 years and i never in my life thought i would see that kind of thing sourcing in detroit today. senior citizens being robbed and beaten tried to fill their car with gas at the local pub. children on the street because our parks and rec centers are closed. one proud neighborhood been overtaken by block. we can change these things but we need a mayor with a proven history of doing turnaround. a mayor will make sure the street repair crews to show up and get the lights on, it will get the angles and the police to show up when you call and to finally deal with these abandoned houses. i'm burning for mayor because i

know we can we build a great detroit together. napoleon: i would also like to thank tiki 62 and you, carol, for giving us an opportunity to present our plans to the people of the city of detroit to hello, detroit. my name is benny napoleon and going to be the next mayor of this city of detroit. we are facing the most critically election in 40 years. this election will determine the residence for generations to come. who you select on november 5 will be pivotal to the future of this great city. i have devised a plan to revitalizing the neighborhood in this committee that is innovative, progressive, visionary, focusing on the quality of life in your neighborhood, the life that we had when i was growing up in this community. livable, walkable, sustainable neighborhoods. neighborhoods that were safe. neighborhoods where you shop, where you played, and neighborhoods that you worship

him. this is a defining moment for the city of detroit, detroit, the decision is up to you. you have to look for your future and pick a leader. >> moderator: now we will start with the questioning here. i will start it off and other panelist will join us. we will rotate through. i know the one thing we both agree on, that's the emergency manager. if you had your way you both like to undo the law but the fact is kevin or will be the emergency manager for another six months or so after one of you is the next mayor. i will start the question with you and that is, i have many free press readers and readers also send in question that many asked about the emergency manager. how specifically to each of you plan to work with kevyn orr during the first six months? duggan: the first question is is the only here for six or nine months? while the government has said the emergency mention will be over 18 months, his contract is not say that. his contract says he's here as long as governor snyder has

appointed an. one of the questions we've got to ask is how do we most effectively move him out. as long as he is here, nobody has any right. not the voters of detroit and not the next mayor. i intend to come in and i will engage the emergency manager. i'm not going to attack him but i will come in with a very specific plan. i hope the community and business leaders support me and join me to say we now have elected mayor with a stronger in history was a great tournament team and a very specific turnaround plan. plan. at the artist possible date, i hope we will encourage the government to send kevyn orr back to washington, d.c. and returned it would get elected officials. napoleon: i have maintained since day one that i believe kevyn orr is here illegally. i do not believe the governor has the right to impose his will and nullify the will of the people of this community. i am opposed to it. i think it's illegal. i believe the federal court will say that the citizens and democracy will prevail in this

community. that being said, the fact is that we need leadership that is going to stand up for this community. i have a plan. i have a plan that i have presented 63 pages long. i've been waiting for my explain. i haven't seen mike's plan. mine is there. it's out there for anybody to see. he said he had hundreds of people working on this plan for the city of detroit. i do plan to i can present today, not january that today. i think the citizens of this city need to recognize my plan is there. they can see it today. duggan: apparently the sheriff hasn't attended my 10 forms i've done in every council district where i've done and our powerpoint with two other people at the time present a plan to rebuild the neighborhoods. when i finish it, the residents are taking questions for an hour, hour and half suggesting their ideas and we're adding it to the plan. it's on the website and we have a very clear plan to rebuild the

city so that every neighborhood has a future. napoleon: i can show your power points all day long but i want to see a written document put together by 100 people that he said he had during the course of this campaign. he started in november talking about these people get putting this plan together. i have a written document. i also have a powerpoint that i put up for people to see. it's all there. i just want to see the documents. >> moderator: next question comes from cliff russell. >> i have a question for both of you. benny, i will start with you and i might elaborate on emergency manager question to be. as you both know, voting rights have been abdicated in detroit. elected officials have been notified. democracy in detroit, michigan, is dead. i'd like to both to characterize how egregious that is to the citizens of detroit. and as mayor, could you elaborate more on what specifically you will do to make sure that the emergency manager law goes away? and that this can never happen

again and seven i campaigned vigorously against the emergency management law, as it did against the right to work. i'm a history major. i understand the long struggle people have had during the civil rights era. i lived it. my grandparents, from a little town in tennessee, where they were sharecroppers. i saw segregation in its heyday. this is the most offenses assault on democracy that has ever occurred i believe in the history of this nation since the american revolution. we must do everything possible to get rid of kevyn orr. he is here illegally. he is here illegitimately. i, for one, will stand up for the citizens of this community and do everything i can to get rid of kevyn orr. because trying to work with him, he has demonstrated he doesn't want to work with anyone. the current mayor attempted to work with kevyn orr. he is totally disrespected not

just there but the citizens of the city of this community. duggan: personal question, what is happening is very troubling. you have a number of short-term consultants making millions of dollars spending an awful lot of money with no thought it was going to run the city department in the long run. i am concerned about it, and i asked the people of the city, can you point to a single area of city government for your services are better? are the buses running on time? are the streetlights fixed? are you any safer? i don't believe you or. it is my hope to go in on day one and say, i'd like to see the emergency manager go but if not ugly the next mayor ought to be the chief operating officer. the next mayor of to be allowed to come in and put his habit, put in a long-term team and i'm going to come in and engage with the emergency manager. and if i'm allowed to coming up with a team together to turn the city around, i will work with them. and if not, then we'll be in an adversarial situation.

napoleon: i have no plan to work with kevyn orr. i've not thought about working with kevyn orr. my goal is to get rid of kevyn orr. that should be the goal of anyone who is truly going to stand up for the citizens of this community. our rights to democracy have been taken away. i don't think there's any community in this state that would welcome having their vote taken away from them and impose the will of the governor on this community. i'm against it. a warning against it and i will fight against it with every ounce of blood that i have in my body. duggan: this is the difference between us. i'm going to engage in day one. kevykevyn orr will be said manya plan of adjustment to the bankruptcy court that could potentially take with the pension rights of seniors. it could sell the water department and the like. i'm going to be engaged by the one of my own vision that employed to first ask the emergency manager to support, and if not go to the bankruptcy court that says we do not have to sell off her assets. we do not have to cancel pensions. do we have to restructure?

yes. but i'm going to be engaged from day one, not sitting waiting for him to go away. >> moderator: next question comes from tom jordan. >> thank you very much. gentlemen, thank you. i want to ask you both this question and we'll start with mike duggan. so many city in america actively seek advice from in is bound across the country that shows a lot of success in their own municipalities, economic growth, curtailed that, attractive businesses. and they have lowered their crime rates. but detroit has seemed to adopted somewhat of an isolationist attitude. if you're not born and raised or from detroit, don't bother us kind of the mindset. do you agree with that, for one? and are there any cities in america that you see are worthy of seeking advice or have shown success that you see as a city you would like to seek advice and some input from their city leaders? duggan: i think there are a lot of cities in this country doing well, and you always try to

learn from those who are doing it best. i think back to when i was a prosecutor and the violence in this community was at a terrible rate. the city of new york had reduced their funds rate, so had boston. i spent a fair amount of time india in boston and studied what they had done and we brought a lot of these strategies you. what we did was we teamed up with the u.s. attorney, the atf, dea, a prosecutor from the police and the state altogether to crack down on every single gun crime so we investigate and prosecute them and made it clear that he carried a gun in this county, you were going to prison. in my last years as prosecuting 2003 with the fewest murders in 30 years. the other thing they did in boston was they paired with the administer community and a 10-point plan where the provider conflict resolution and mentoring services, et cetera. i think we can learn from the committee spent 60 did and make this a safer city than seven --

napoleon: . i don't necessarily agree that detroit is in isolation. i think the city of -- the people of the city toward want to be respected. we've had attacks on the city predominate coming out of lansing with the people of this community believe that they've been under attack. lansing took away revenue sharing. lansing took away residency. lansing took away the mayor's office, away the school system. detroiters are very proud people so i don't think that isolationist until. they just want to be respected. the second thing relates to folks in other commuters. yes, i had an opportunity to meet with the mayor in atlanta just a few months ago. atlanta was a city very much like detroit at one time. it was predominantly poor, a lot of african-american population and high unemployment, education challenges and crime, and i had a long, long conversation with them. they are doing it right in atlanta. i think there are some things we can emulate here in detroit. duggandetroit.

>> moderator: let's get your next question. senior editor of the michigan chronicle was writing a book about detroit as we speak. >> thank you very much for being here. you talk about lansing, what lansing is done, what the governor has done. this question goes to danny and mike as well. you look at the city up on it. they have come under emergency management. critics of governor snyder have said racist to the center -- given that detroit is a major african-american city, not only emergency manager, we've seen activists, leaders have come out and said if these were not african-american it is difficult to see how the current admin session can come in and take over the city. do you share the opinion, can you say to viewers, voters, this morning that race is part of the agenda? napoleon: i do know that as we

stand today and discussed this very issue, 50% of people in this state to look like you and i have been disenfranchised by this state. but there are other cities in the state that have similar financial judges just like the city of detroit. they see financial challenges yet there's been no emergency manager implemented there. can you imagine if any governor in this country, let's take a southern state like alabama or mississippi or georgia, would have the nerve to go into a predominately african-american city that was in the heart of the civil rights movement and disenfranchised majority of the population, that we would sit back and think, well, it's okay, it's only because they have financial problems. they really need somebody to come in and run the city. i think we'll be up in arms as a nation, and we be highly offended as well we should be.

duggan: there is no question that what it's been happening in this state is disproportionately affecting the african-american voters. it's hard not to feel a sense of disenfranchisement. i'm can't read inside the moat is as to what is doing it but you have to look at the affect and effect is disturbing. what's equally disturbing is the complete failure of the emergency manager in history but if you look at what's happened in benton harbor, highland park, when you disenfranchise local voters there's no evidence that the emergency manager had made things any better. and so my objection is to fool. one it is disproportionately affecting of an american committees second, there's evidence it works. napoleon: i find it incredible that my opponent would stand here today and suggest he is offended by the placing of an

emergency manager into the city of detroit when we had e-mails that will show not only was he a participant in a discussion regarding putting in an emergency manager in the city of detroit, e-mails that will show he was a candidate to be the emergency manager. as opposed to being selected he wants to now be elected. duggan: this is how dirty this campaign has gotten to just make things a. do you know what those e-mails show? a show i've lobbied fiercely against the appointment of the emergency manager. i wrote positive op-ed's sign it will not work and i went to lansing and i lobbied, the chief of staff, the state treasure, one of the government's top aides and said you cannot disenfranchise the voters. you need to hold off with the emergency manager and let the people decide. that's what those e-mails show but the truth is i was fighting the emergency manager. >> moderator: i think this conversation shows that the conversation about race, regulations is very divisive.

the suburbs, this entire state. there was an op-ed talking about the fact that he contacted 100, with supporting you, mike duggan, contacted one of six ministers asking if you coming to speak and 50% although no, they didn't want that. they said it was because the fact it was you were right. regardless i matter to debate that. the question is having a racial agenda and dealing with issues to be trying to bridge the conversation about balance and harmony and had to do all these things, and mike, you have a specific agenda how to deal with these issues? duggan: i'm dealing with issues exactly as i have been. i'm going into people's living rooms day after day after talk to people face-to-face. the only way to get to know people and let them get to know you is talking face-to-face. when you talk face-to-face, what do fight you can stick away. we have in common comes up front. i don't agree with the reverend dick i've been treated well.

i'm in churches every sunday with ministers of opened the doors to be. i've been so busy going to the churches that have welcomed me i didn't know there were once it had an. i think the ministers have every right to decide who they're supporting as does anybody else in this town. i don't agree with the criticism bottom going to keep doing what i'm doing. and i'm running on a platform of unity that we shouldn't be dividing. we need to be uniting. napoleon: i don't think anyone who has the best interest of this region at heart would suggest that this region should be divided along any lines, whether racial, sexual preference. it doesn't matter. we shouldn't be divided. the only way this region is going to grow is that we grow together in harmony. people need to understand and recognize that there are differences among us. but we have to be respected for those differences. i've been in and out of homes in the city of detroit for 58 years, because i've been here 58 years. i understand how the citizens of this community feel.

when it comes to the things that happen to the city of detroit down through the years. we have been, since the last 40 years, the citizens of this community feel that they've been treated as second class citizens in the state of michigan. we need leadership that they're confident, will stand up, demand the community is respected as we get along throughout this state. duggan: you know, it has been very powerful. i hosted a number of homes with a house next door is abandoned and the people who live there say, every night i go to sleep wondering if the house is going to catch fire and spread to my house. i've been hosted by parents with children murder in the police have still not solved the crime. they say we are supporting you because we know there will be a different level of commitment in the city. and then the 48,000 people who believe in change, believe in community, who wrote my name, i want to say thank you because i do believe we'll bring change to the city transit and certainly

transform this is essential. we have some very suspicious. crime and violence in our community is something i've lived with daily since i was an adult. i started out putting my life on the line when i was 19. i continue to do that today, some almost 40 years later. i've been into those same homes, but i've been in before the victims take linda. i've been in before the people have gone to court. i've seen the devastation firsthand time when our next comes from cliff russell. >> another question for the both of you. again, beginning with you, benny. mayor coleman, used to say there's nothing wrong with detroit, that enough good paying jobs can't fix. and it's pretty clear that those jobs will not come from manufacturing and the making of cars like it used to. so my question is, what is your vision for detroit's economy under your administration? and what would you do specifically to bring investment and jobs to detroit?

napoleon: that's a great question. i have wrote out a and economic transmission program for the city that focuses on the neighborhood. we are going to put an economic anchor inside of every neighborhood in the city of detroit. so it would be the kind of community that i grew up in. ..

duggan: and this is a classive example of you can say anything. the idea that we are going to build $3 billion of police stations and malls and the like with a city that's bankrupt, the idea that you're going to draw some circles and say to business people put your $3 billion here is completely unrealistic. if that looked, they would have filled the city up 20 years ago. here's the truth, detroit will come back when lots of entrepreneurs start lots of small companies and feed off each other. and we can do this. just as when i was the prosecutor and took the abandoned homes from people who abandoned them, we can take the vacant storefronts, take them from the owners and make them available to the entrepreneurs for a dollar, we can tear apart the permitting process, and start-up funds so if you want to start a company in this town, you'll have a means to get funding so we can get 15 and 16 and 17-year-olds growing up in

this city that can think i can start hi own company, that's how we come back. napoleon: that's the difference between me and my opponent. i didn't go to the school of i can't, i went to the school of i can. whenever we're talking about doing something that is going to transform our neighborhoods, everybody wants to say we can't do, we can't do. but i believe we can, and that's the difference. i have vision. i believe that this city can grow and be a bigger, stronger, tougher, better city than it's ever been, and it's going to be that when we have leadership that does not have a defeatist attitude. duggan: the last time sheriff that follow poll onwent to the community for a vision of a new jail right here, and we're going to save money. and it was a senseless thing from the beginning. he didn't bother to check out the numbers, didn't bother to check out the facts, and now they're $100 million over budget

and tearing it down. it's easy to say you're going to do something. when i started at dmc, we had 11,000 employees. when i left, we had 14,000 employees. >> moderator: and our next question from tom jordan of news radio 950. >> all right, thank you, and this is, of course, for both of you as well. starting with mike, what do you do with the elderly woman who bought a nice home in detroit back in the '60s which you both experienced way back then, and since then she has watched her neighborhood crumble. she can't afford to move out if she wants to move out. her home is ransacked by scrappers who are taking her windows, her furnace, her cup boards, that's just one of thousands of stories like this. how can your crime prevention plan address that specific issue and people like this woman can once again feel safe? duggan: well, you can go on to

my web site and you'll see the plan which we call every neighborhood has a future. the first thing we're going to do is take the abandoned homes when they're first abandoned and move families into them which i did a thousand times and fix up the homes so we stop the deterioration in the first place. we're going to go to the vacant lots, and we're going to cut the grass and bill the owners of the vacant lots, and we are going to go after the scrap yards to take out the financial incentive to do it. and on the crime side, we need to get the police to show up when you call. and that means starting to make better use of the offices we already have. we've with got more than 50 officers at precincts filling out payroll, dispatching cars. the first thing we need to do is take all the available officers we have, get them on the street and backfill as many cities do and cut the police response time. if we can do those things together, we can make a difference in these neighborhoods. napoleon: i'll use the first few seconds of the answer to this question to comment on this jail

issue. mike as the deputy county executive under mike mcnamara knows that sheriffs and employees and department heads and elected officials don't build buildings, the county executive does. but the elderly woman you're talking about, that's my mother. she's been in the same house she's opinion in since 1960. that's why i've developed a crime-fighting plan that is focusing on making our neighborhoods livable, walkable and sustainable. i've put together a crime-fighting plan that reduces crime in this city by 30% when i was the chief of police. i now have a square mile initiative that will further enhance that crime-fighting plan, and i've pledge ld to the citizens of this community that we will reduce crime right where they live by over 50% during my first term as mayor of this great city. it can be done. it's possible, it's necessary, it's about folks in the neighborhood. >> if you've got a crime-fighting plan, sheriff, feel free to start. you're the elected sheriff of this county.

you've been there four years. you ran for sheriff promising you had a crime-fighting plan, and you were going to make us safer. and in four years there hasn't been a single initiative out of your office that's beenfective. and on that 30% crime cut, what years are you measuring? because we can't figure out what year you think you reduce the crimed, and hope today you'll tell us, which years you measuring when you're claiming that success? match knapp those numbers are posted on the pbi's web site -- fbi's web site. i've never heard of a person committing a crime until such time as a guy like this gets from behind a desk, from away from that computer, puts on a bulletproof vest and walks the streets of this city, he's not equipped to talk about fighting crime. he can't take credit for the work they did. >> moderator: and our next question toms from --

[inaudible] -- comes from. [inaudible] thompson. >> the 70-year-old senior citizen doesn't have time to go on your web site, she probably does not have a computer. so how different, mike, how different is your crime fighting plan from ben nina poll ons -- benny napoleons. give us a stark contrast here. duggan: i'm going to do right back to what i did when i was a prosecutor. the detroit police are heroes and to a phenomenal job, but if the police arrest a prisoner and the sheriff lets them out of jail, you haven't accomplished anything. they go on probation and violate and the state probation office doesn't pick them up, you haven't accomplished anything. when i was the prosecutor, i went to boston and new york, and we created a team of the u.s. attorney, the atf, the dea, the detroit police, the prosecutor and the state because i'm not running to be police chief. we have a police chief in jim

craig. what i'm going to do is take my experience and my relationships to make sure that when someone is arrested for a gun crime, we'll flip to the federal side, make sure probation's followed up and get all of our agencies to work together. that's when we'll bring the crime down. napoleon: the only way proven to reduce crime is use proven crime-reduction techniques; or community policing, crime prevention, direct enforcement and a data-driven approach to crime. that's the only thing that has been proven to work throughout this cup. i have a square mile initiative that will place a police officer in every single square mile of this community. that also will be responsible for taking care of the quality of life issues that citizens have; basketball courts, get 'em out, drug houses, get 'em out. you have stores that are not cutting their grass, getting rid of graffiti, write 'em tickets. residents who are causing

disruption, knock on that door and tell them to be a good neighbor. they'll work with every pastor, every community leader, every principal, every organization in that community to make sure that we have livable, walkable, sustainable neighborhoods. my plan is focused directly where the problems are in the neighborhoods where the people live. duggan: and i'll come back to my same thing. if you've got a crime plan, you've been sheriff for four years. what have you done to make the city safer? you've got all kinds of talk. let's say we stick 139 officers who are going to solve the street light problem and the abandoned house problems, what's going to happen? you haven't fixed the stoplights, the -- street leagues, the abandoned houses, you're going to have cops dialing in an abandoned house that's closeed. those cops need to be on street conning -- responding to calls. of. napoleon: i've done her in one

day than he's done in a lifetime. the fact is that the only way we're going to reduce crime is to use those proven techniques. as sheriff i have my scout program that is working throughout the entire city of detroit that is impacting. in the lyons neighborhood, we reduced b and es by just being there two days a month. i've been working raiding houses, picking up hookers and prostitutes and taking care of this community for 40 years. >> moderator: and we're going to take a quick timeout and be back with our michigan matters special, the great debate for mayor of detroit, right after. ♪ ♪ >> moderator: welcome back to our michigan matters special where we're talking with mike duggan and sheriff benny napoleon who are vying to win your vote on november 5th.

i'll start off with a question that many people have been asking, and benny, let me begin with you. with crime, unemployment, blight, so many different issues going on, if elected mayor, what's the very first issue you will tackle? napoleon: you know, in the first 100 days you have to have a plan to address the issues that are confronting our community. there's no question as a lifelong detroiter, affirming detroit as a safe city has to be the number one issue of anyone who takes over the mayor's office. in addition to that, we have some serious issues with our finances. we need to make sure that we do whatever we can to make sure that kevin north's tenure in the city of detroit is limited. hopefully, he will be gone by january 1st, but if he's not, getting rid of him and getting control of this government back to the elected mayor of the city of detroit has to be a top priority. then you have to focus on the other issues. we have some serious issues as detroiters. one of those issues is insurance.

detroiters are plagued with the highest insurance rates in this nation. so those are things we need to focus on, getting our finances straight, crime, blight and focusing on insurance. >> moderator: mike? >> duggan: i think the mayor of the city should be judged on one standard, is the population of detroit going up or going down? if the population is going down, more people want to leaf than come here. i am going to work very hard to reverse the decline in population. in the first 100 days, we're going to attack three things. one, we're going to cut the police response time. we have to be confident in this city that the officers are going to show up, and right now the criminals are not afraid. second, we've got to repair the street lights. it is an embarrassment when we have so much of this community living in the dark. and third, we've got to start taking the abandoned homes as i did as a prosecutor and moving families in. if in the first 100 days people

see the police starting to show up and the abandoned buildings starting to be occupied, i think we can generate hope, and we can start to go on a path that we can rebuild the city the way we want. >> moderator: our next question comes from cliff russell. >> gentlemen, a question for both of you, mike, i'll start with you this time. we've all heard about the corporate community stepping up in detroit and buying new police cars and making commitments to the city, but many residents i speak to fear that those commitments may come with a price, that it's essentially a pay goal la, these police cars and things, that would allow them to control real estate, to build stadiums, to take over the lighting d.. what department. what are your views, gentlemen, on corporate responsibility and roles in destroys and your thoughts about tax abatements. duggan: so to start with, i think it is important to build a coalition that includes all the community. and i'm proud to have a number of the business leaders in this

town supporting me. i'm also proud to be supported by the detroit firefighters, the sanitation workers, the dpw workers, the health care workers and grassroots organizations like ernie johnson and the community coalition. all of these have a place at the table. and at the end of the day, here's what we ought to do. we have a lot of growth going on in downtown and in midtown, but we are losing way too much population out of the neighborhoods. and so we're going to come back to the plan you will find on my web site to make sure every neighborhood has a future. and that means take the abandoned homes when they're first abandoned, move the families in, take the vacant lot that is next door to your house and sell it to the person who's there. we want many of these businesses to partner with new entrepreneurs and fill in some of tease storefronts, and if we can do sol of these things -- some of these things together, we can bring the neighborhood back. napoleon: i don't think there's anything wrong with the

corporate committee helping out the city of detroit. i believe that as good corporate citizens they should do that. but those are not the people who gave me $3 million in contributions, so to say that, you know, we're for sale, that can't be referring to me. but i have enjoyed the support of the uaw, the teamsters, united food and commercial workers. i've enjoyed a tremendous amount of support from labor. the dpoa, the lieu tempts ander sergeants association. so we both have support in the community. but the fact is the question that's most important is who's going to focus on the neighborhoods. and the neighborhoods have been where i've been since the beginning. i believe that once we focus on neighborhoods, neighborhoods, neighborhoods, we will grow this community. i don't oppose tax abatements, but i believe tax abatements should be given first to people who are already here doing business as opposed to new people. of. duggan: and i'm going to come back to the same question. you have been sheriff for four

years. for the neighborhoods, what have you done? if you look at the three years i spent in the prosecutor's office, i went into these neighborhoods and seized 900 drug houses where we moved the drug dealers out and moved families in. we went block by block and took more than a thousand abandoned houses, and we saved them. we just didn't demolish them. and when you replace the abandoned houses and move people in, the rest of the block, people plant flowers. just like blight spreads, hope spreads. napoleon: you know, i didn't think i would have the give the former deputy county prosecutor a civics lesson. he knows that the sheriff's constitutional mandate is the jails, the parks and the courts. every city in wayne county has their own police department, and they also are responsible for policing their communities. i have a scout program that's worked throughout this community to make it safe. he talks about a few houses, we raided 500 houses a month when i

was police chief. that comes out to tens of thousands discussion course of my tenure. >> moderator: and we're going to continue with tom jordan. >> gentlemen, the state capital, lan sing, is more prominent and important than in past years, also has become very volatile. what specific relationships do you gentlemen have with specific people in lansing that you believe will have a positive impact on the city of detroit and, mr. napoleon, we'll start with you. napoleon: i have worked with folks throughout wayne county. i worked closely with all of the legislative representatives elected from wayne county's 43 commitments. i also worked very closely with the detroit delegation. in fact, i've been endorsed and supported by almost all of that detroit delegation, both the house and the senate. so that is where my strength is, working across county lines, working with people inside this

community to focus on issues that are important to this region. i enjoy a tremendous amount of support throughout this community. i've been in public service now 38 years. i've worked with people during this entire time, and i'm going to use those connections, that focus to go into the communities and make our neighborhoods safer, make them more livable, walkable and sustainable, because it's really about the neighborhoods, the neighborhoods, the neighborhoods. duggan: we need to recognize the reality that detroit is 8% of this state's population. and if all we're going to do is fight with the other 92%, we're going to keep losing as we have in recent years. when i was the ceo of dmc, we were heavily dependent on the state of michigan, and when rick snyder was elected governor in 2010 and the republicans took house and took the senate, i went up and said we're going to lobby for our money. because there was a group of hospitals outstate that

immediately started to change the funding formula to move funding out to the grand rapids area. i sat with the house and republican chair, i sat with the new republican senate chair, i sat with governor snyder, and i showed them objectively that not just dmc, but henry ford and st. johns were doing an outstanding job delivering care for the poor many our community. and when it was done, every single dollar got reinstated back to the city of detroit. we can do it on a bipartisan basis, but we have to work at it. napoleon: you know, that's interesting. let's talk about the fairy tale of the dmc turn around. $50 million came from the governor. huge tax breaks from county executive. $30 million in fines paid to the justice department for bribes, fraud and kickbacks. it was sold a nonprofit hospital where my opponent got millions of dollars in cash and stock options while hundreds and

thousands of people got laid off. that's not a turn around. duggan: it's astonishing how many untrue things you said in three seconds. but let's start with this, the $50 million was given to my predecessor as a bailout before i got there, and it was gone. and when i came in, dmc was on the verge of laying off 4,000 people, closing receiving, closing -- [inaudible] and closing hustle hospital. and we worked together to turn it around. and as sheriff napoleon well knows, every dollar i got in that vanguard sale, my wife and i gave to children of dmc employees. we were not enriched a single penny. >> moderator: and our next question. >> well, gentlemen, let's expand this into leadership. i think what you just said, mike, goes into the leadership section. you have your supporters, people send me lots of e-mails concerned that you both have been part of wayne county, detroit government for a very long time.

sirna pole onas police chief, mike out of wayne county, came under federal investigation for corruption. what can you tell voters who are watching tonight who are not supporting you, they're in the middle wondering what you can demonstrate to them that shows leadership and ethics, and you explain yourself from the police department and from wayne county? i'll start with mike. duggan: well, i will start with this, in wayne county, i was there 14 years. we balanced the budget, we built ford field, and while there was one member of our administration indicted, the u.s. attorney said that i had never been under investigation. on the other hand, mr. napoleon has been under investigation as well. but i think what you really ought to look at is results, and i would encourage your viewers to call somebody you know who works at dmc, people who remember what it was like when you wait three or four hours to

see a doctor and how we came in and delivered that care in 29 minutes, how we went from having almost no cardiology program to one of the best in the country, how we went from 11,000 employees to 14,000 employees, and now when you drive on our campus, there's $850 million in new investment. that's the kind of results that we need in the city of detroit. napoleon: it's no secret that both of us have been in government for a very long time. neither one of us are new. pike has been involved -- mike has been involved in government probably longer than i have, but it's not much different. but the fact is from a leadership standpoint i've always been open and transparent. i've always been open to letting someone come in, look at this agency where i've been, it doesn't matter to see if, in fact, we are operating clearly. i've never been afraid of the feds, i've never been afraid of anyone. because i believe that the

essence of government is that people should have trust in their government. so as a leader, that's what you do, you instill trust. you make sure that people understand. when people do wrong when i'm around, they go to prison. it's just that simple. we don't cover up anything. i've never been accused of it, and i've never sanctioned it, and i would never be a part of it. >> moderator: any response? duggan: no thanks. >> moderator: any other response? and our next question are be cliff russell. >> yemen, i am -- gentlemen, i am concerned about the young people in detroit. one of the issues that people don't talk about but think about a lot in detroit are the scores of young people. they don't have jobs, we don't have the recreation centers we used to have, we don't have the training we used to have. what commitments can you give us now that as mayor you will make sure that these young people have better opportunities for jobs, for recreation and for the

future in detroit that you both say you want to create. duggan: start with me? napoleon: start with mike. duggan: well, i think it is absolutely the center question. there are many things i disagree with mayor bing with, but he basically said police and fire are priority here, parks and recreation are here, we're just going to cut them off. i think that's a terrible judgment because if we do not provide something more these young people to do, we're just going to be hiring police down the road to catch them. now, we may not be able to afford to build stand alone recreation centers in the future, but it doesn't mean we can't have smart partnerships. we could potentially hire staff and partner with them to open these up as opposed to running our own centers. and i want to do more what we did at the detroit medical center where we started project genesis, we hired a hundred detroit can public school high school kids to work for $10 an

hour in the dmc facilities. eight years later kids we hired as high school juniors are in mood today, are working full-time jobs at dmc. we need to do more of that for our young people. napoleon: you know, cliff, i was not born a child of privilege. my grandfather was a sharecropper with a third grade education. my dad was a sharecropper with an eighth grade education. he came here with great promise of making a living for their family. educating our children is the quickest way to lift them up out of the circumstances that they are in. we have to recognize that our kids enter school not equal with, they come in on two different tobaccos. educating chirp in an urban -- children in an urban environment is a challenge that i understand having worked in that environment as the head of the child abuse unit, head of the youth section in the detroit police department, working with

the detroit public school system for years and years, 13 years of my career. the mayor of the city of detroit has to be the strongest advocate for education of any person in this community including the superintendent, because until you get the schools straight, the neighborhoods won't grow. duggan: this is one of few times sheriff napoleon and i are going to completely agree. the next mayor has got to be the best partner the detroit public schools ever had, and i don't believe that means taking over the school. it is hard for our teachers to teach when the children are not in the classroom, and yet the city is not providing the kind of truancy sport that we ought to be doing. and i want to come back to project genesis. it's my intention to go to every business leader in this community and say let's create job opportunities, part time and summer, so these kids can see the kind of career opportunities there are. napoleon: once again i have to say that it's amazing to me that my opponent will say that he's opposed to the mayor taking or anyone taking over our school system when he has served on the

eaa board as its treasurer. that is part of the takeover of the school system that is educating our children. how can you be against it when you are a part of it? that system needs to come back under the control of the residents of this city, just like city government, so that we can move forward and educate our babies from the city of detroit. >> moderator: gentlemen, much conversation about the city of detroit being reinvented from a fiscal standpoint, geography in terms of where neighborhoods are located. mayor bing put forth a plan which talked about shrinking some of the neighborhoods, your quick thoughts on the need to shrink neighborhoods and which neighborhoods should be the ones that would go or add or what would you do and, sheriff, let me start with you. napoleon: you know, i have gone through all of the information that was put out by detroit future cities, and a lot of it i agree with. i'm just not certain that i agree with shrinking the city from the perspective of, you know, putting people out of their homes and relocating

someplace different than where they've been. when i hear that, i think about my mother. she's been in her house since 1960. the neighborhood is not the same neighborhood that she raised her children in, it's not the same area. but to tell her after all this time that she has to leave her house and to someplace else because you want to shrink the city is, i think, a little unfair and insensitive. we have to to be more creative h what we do. as it relates to urban farming, the city of detroit was once a great metropolis, i believe we can do that again. i haven't given up on the city of detroit. we're going to be bigger, we're going to be better, we're going to be stronger. duggan: and this is the difference between us, e have a plan -- i have a plan which is on my web site, dugganfordetroit.com. what to you do with the blocks that only have two or three homes? can we create positive

incentives? here's what i want to do. we're going to go back and take abandoned houses in the neighborhoods that are solid, have one or two vacancies, and i'll do as i did when i was a prosecutor. i want to go to those blocks that have two or three houses left and say to the folks if you want to move, no pressure, but we'll give you the option. if you want to move, we'll give you triple the credit on your house, so if your house is worth $10,000 on a block where there's only two left, we'll let you move into a house worth $30,000 in another neighborhood. i think we can get people to do two things at once, fill in the neighborhoods we need filled in and also allow some people who want to have the option to move. >> moderator: scwhrm are you okay? napoleon: something flying around. >> moderator: a republican fly in the house here. [laughter] napoleon: you said that, i didn't. i have an economic development

for our neighborhoods that will put anchors in every community in this city, in every new council ticket. and from there we will grow out. i hope to see our city the city i grew up in where you have livable, walkable, sustainable neighborhood, where you get rid of the blight, you build nor houses. -- new houses. detroit has a chance to be the great city that it was once again. and i'm not saying i disagree, i just have a different idea. duggan: and let me come back again to the specific plans. so here's the next piece of what i want to do, when we move the folks out of these sparsely-populated neighborhoods, we're going to sit down and say what do you want to do with that stretch of land? do you want to have a community garden? do you want to create a recreation area? and so we'll do two things at once, we'll move some of the people out of the declining neighborhoods, but then we'll partner with the community groups to see what we can do to reuse that property. when we start creating that kind of partnership, then we'll start using our land well. >> moderator: i'm going to ask you both to be a copy editor

here for a moment. it's january 2015, each of you are mayor at this time. what will be different for the city of detroit, and what will they say about the difference you made to the city in your first year? napoleon: detroit, the miracle city. it is bigger, it is better, it is stronger, it is tougher, it is prettier, it is better than it's ever been. duggan: i have a clear plan on what i want to do, so here's where we've got to go to first year. we are going to get the police to show up. we're going to cut that police response time so people feel safe in their homes and wizs feel -- businesses feel safe. second, we are going to stop living in the dark. and then third, we're going to start to take these abandoned homes. if we can do that, we can bring the neighborhoods back. and then the other thing i'm going to do that first year is i'm going to do similar to what we ran at dmc. i want to start a city of detroit car insurance program where with we offer auto insurance. it is absolutely ridiculous the car insurance rates in this

city, it is driving people out of these neighborhoods. >> moderator: and that'll have to be the last word here. as part of what we agreed to at the start, we have time for a closing statement here and by the toss of the coin, mike duggan, you go first. duggan: well, it's been almost a year now since i left the job i loved at dmc, and it's been an extraordinary year. i've campaigned in every corner of this city and this week did my 238th house party. i've been campaigning living room to living room, church to church, and i've been greeted with warmth and kindness in every corner of community. i had some rough times, i got thrown off the ballot for filing my petitions two weeks too early, and every place i went the people in in this city said, mike, do a write-in, we can do this. and we saw some dirty tricks. they sued me, they brought in the barber, people said, don't worry, we can spell. and 48,000 people spelled my name properly and filled in the circle, and i want to say thank you. and i'll promise you one thing,

that if you'll trust me with your vote on november 5th, i will fight just as hard the next four years as your mayor to help build the detroit that the people of this city deserve. >> moderator: and we'll hear now from sheriff benny napoleon. napoleon: detroit, this is a serious election. i have a neighborhood revitalization plan that is online that's 673 pages long -- 63 pages long. it's going to revitalize this community the way it's never seen in the last 50 years. i have a square mile initiative that will make this city safe, livable, walkable, sustainable once again one square mile at a time. but let me just say this, my opponent says that he's been come anything and out of detroit for the last 32 years. how many of you have seen him the that last 32 years before he began to run for mayor? while he was sleep anything lavoian, i put on a bulletproof vest, a 40 caliber block and patrolled this city. we were arresting murderers,

carjackers and break-in men. while he was sleeping, we were getting rid of pony down, young boys i were continued and the chambers brothers. i was taking flags off the coffins of slain police officers who have given their lives for you while your were sleeping. >> moderator: and, gentlemen, i want to thank you both for taking time to be part of this, and that concludes the first televised debate here between mike duggan and penny napoleon. again, thank you both for being here. i want to give my thanks to cliff, tom and thompson for being with us, and if once was not enough, watch again on wkbd-tv, our sister station, at 5 p.m. on october 27th and listen to it again on wwj news radio 950 this coming tuesday, october 22nd. the next conversation will take place at the detroit economic club of which i'm pleased again to be moderating. from all of here at cbs-62 and

your michigan matters crew, thanks for being with us. ♪ ♪ >> the u.s. labor d. today released the september jobs numbers which showed the economy added 148,000 jobs last month. the unemployment rate fell to 7.2% from 3.3 in august. -- 7.3 in august. the september jobs report was delayed by about two and a half weeks due to the government shutdown. the impact of which won't be seen until october's numbers come out in a few weeks. jason fuhrman, chair of president obama's council of economic advisers, released a statement today saying in part,

quote: there is no question that the focus of policy should be on how to achieve a faster pace of job growth by increasing certainty and investing in jobs rather than the self-inflicted wounds of the past several weeks that increased uncertainty and inhibited job growth. shifting over to capitol hill, the house is in this week, and the energy and commerce committee will hold a hearing thursday to take a look at the implementation of the health care law and the challenges faced since the opening of the insurance exchanges on october 1st. that's live at 9 a.m. eastern right here on c-span2. also want to mention that health and human services secretary kathleen sebelius is expected to testify on capitol hill about the insurance exchange rollout as early as next week. we'll be sure to update you when we get more details. ♪ >> c-span's student cam video competition asks what's the most important issue congress should consider in 2014?

make a 5-7 minute documentary showing varying points of view, and be sure to include c-span video. the competition's open to all middle and high school students with a grand prize of $5,000. and this year we've doubled the number of winners and total prizes. need more information? visit student cam.org. >> i think that women are getting a very complex message. i mean, we're in the middle of a social i don't sociological revolution. our young women are told that they have to have a great career, they have to be great mothers, they have to be thin, they have to be good looking, they have to manage a house well, and there is a sense of entitlement i can do everything that a young man does, that includes having a glass of wine or two after work, drinking to wind down, and women tend to medicate depression and anxiety and loneliness. i think there's a lot of anxiety

in this generation in terms of how do i manage it all. and so when we look at who is drinking the most, we're seeing the professional woman, the educated woman, and i don't think this is what gloria steinem had in mind. >> ann dowsett johnston sunday night at 9 eastern and pacific on "after words," part of book booktv this weekend on c-span2. plus right now online join viewers reading "walking with the wind" by congressman and civil rights leader john lewis with. see what others are saying and post your own comments. find out more at booktv.org/book club. >> next, a panel discussion assessing the long-term global energy outlook. hosted by the american association for the advancement of science and moderated by npr science correspondent richard harris, this is an hour and 15 minutes. [applause]

>> thank you all for being here. this is a, this will be a conversation, and i will ask you to participate as the time, as the time evolves here. we're, i don't know what's going to happen, you don't know, let's make it wonderful. it's going to be sort of a spontaneous thing, and i will very briefly introduce our participants tonight, and we'll get the ball rolling here, and in a little while we'll open mics for questions. so let me get started here. first of all, let me introduce vivien foster who is a manager at the sustainable energy department at the world bank. thank you very much for coming here. next to her is howard gruenspecht, the deputy administrator of the u.s. energy information administration, and we need to thank congress, i guess, for allowing you to be on your job today so you could join us today. we appreciate that very much. >> thank you, congress. >> and rob gardner is at exxonmobil, manager in the corporate planning d.. these folks have, obviously, much more elaborate resumés,

bios and so on. but in the interest of time, i will refer you to the worldwide web if you want to foe more about these individuals. -- to know more about these individuals. let me start off, we do not have powerpoints, powerpoints are not allowed, however, we did receive a pdf which will, i think, be put up on the screen. [laughter] and i will ask, it came from rob, and i will ask rob to opine about it a little bit, although he shouldn't really refer to it. [laughter] because that would violate the rules. at any rate, the conversation tonight, of course, is about the future of energy looking out to 2040 which, depending on how you look at it, is a long time from now or not very long from now. and the question we all have come here to learn about is whether, what will energy look like? will there be enough for us? will there be enough for people in the world who have no energy right now, which vivienne will talk about, how much will it

cost? and what will that energy do to our environment, and i'll put everyone on the hot seat about that a little bit. but let me start with the big picture question when you look ahead to 2040, will there be enough? rob, what do you think? >> there be enough? >> will there be enough? >> we believe there's adequate energy for the future to cover the demand growth that we expect, and we think that there'll be a significant amount of supply remaining even after 2040. so i think it's important to keep in mind that technology plays a key role in the world's energy outlook. and how not only in how the kind of supplies, but how we use it. technology is integral in all this. exxonmobil every year does an energy outlook, and we publish it -- we use it internally for our own planning and our investment strategy, but we also publish it so that we can have a discussion about it and share our views of the energy future. and we've done this for a number

of years. we actually go -- we have some in our files that go back into the 1940s. graphics weren't very good then, obviously. >> and this is an illegal powerpoint. i'm sorry to say, somebody has -- it's not even the one that i was promised we would see. >> right. i think they're going to put that up. but let's talk about the world for a minute and energy. >> but what, 2040, what will it look like? i mean, how different will planet be and how different will the energy picture be? >> so today we have about seven billion people that we share the world with, and from 2010 to 2040 we had not quite two billion people. almost all of those are in the developing economies, and they're concentrated in a number of regions, certainly asia-pacific and africa. and as we look at that, that increase in population, in standard of living, in incomes, those are all critical. and that's actually going to require more energy than they

use today in the developing economies. the developed economies, though, today use a certain amount of energy, and we think that's going to be fairly stable going forward other the long term. over the long term. and so we look at two groups in this, we look at the developed economies, the members of the organization for economic cooperation and development and then the expansion economies sort of where all that economic growth and powerhouse is showing up. and what's really important when you think about that and you think about that growth, that group that's growing, so we're going to see almost two billion more people there, but they're going to have a higher standard of living. and, you know, the first thing we think about when we start thinking about that different situation for homes and urbanization increases is infrastructure. they need more houses, they need roads, they need railways, they need power grids, they need sewage systems. all of that takes steel and

cement and energy to build that. they're going to buy cars, and they're going to buy a number of cars. and so that strives energy like oil where we can convert oil into fuel. and that'll be -- so we see an increase in oil demand driven globally by the increase in transportation requirements for the developing economies. household appliances, households themselves, all of that is going to take more electricity, industrial output to produce the materials and to build those homes and to build those appliances. plastics are going to be a key part of that. and so that takes a wide suite of energy demand to supply that. and finally, let's not forget that they're going to go to school, and they're going to use hospitals, and they're going to use commercial centers and shopping centers, so you need a lot of electricity in that area both improving the medical standards and education, lights, all of that is an important overview of what happens in the developing part of the world.

and that's why when we, when we talk about the expansion economies, we say that's where all the incremental energy demand growth occurs. and it's up about 65 finish did i lose my? there we go. i thought i was with, i got the hook or something. [laughter] and so, but when you move from that to the developed economies, their energy demand is essentially flat, but they're using energy differently. and there's really only, there's a lot of things going on across the board this, but electricity generation, we see a fuel transition there as we move away and move to fuels with lower carbon intensity, more efficiency, natural gas, renewables. and that is changing the energy mix in the developed world. and we see transportation efficiency really starting to accelerate and reducing the amount of oil demand as we go forward. >> okay. i want to get into all of that, and i appreciate the global

view, and let's come back to that because i want to turn now to vivien and ask her, i don't know if you glanced over your shoulder at this pdf, but, i mean, let's take a step back and look at where the developing world is right now. how many people completely lack energy, and how do you see things changing between now and 2040? >> okay, thank you very much, richard. well, we see energy access as a huge global equity issue. as of today about 1.2 billion people live without electricity, and i think the first picture we saw illustrated that beautifully, right is if that's the world by night where you basically see each continent in terms of its electric lights, and you can see the developed world silhouetted beautifully there. but africa is almost entirely in the dark. in fact, the amount of generation capacity available to africa today is equivalent to the states of california and oregon, and that services 48 southern nations. so the sheer absence or lack of

energy in the developing world is very, very startling. and we think that achieving universal energy access which has been articulated by the u.s. secretary general as a global objective for 2030 is a very, very key goal. now, of course, energy isn't just about electricity, richard, as you know. electricity is a part of it, but most of the energy that most of us use is actually for cook and eating, and that also poses a huge equity challenge. 1.2 billion people without electricity, there's 2.8 billion that are still cooking on traditional stoves, with firewood or cattle dung or some sort of traditional biomass. and not only is that inefficient and potentially damaging to the environment, but it has huge health implications. mainly women and children are dying from inhaling smoke from this kind of primitive form of cooking. and energy access challenge needs to take into account both electrification and the whole cooking challenge. now, if we look at how energy is

distributed around the world today, it's highly inequitable. we find that about the 20 largest energy-consuming countries account for 80% of global energy consumption. whereas the low income countries consume only about 1%, so that's a huge, huge gap. and, in fact, just two countries -- china and the u.s -- each account for 20% of global energy consumption, so it's a very, very inequitable story. now, even when energy's available in the developing world, there's all kinds of problems with its quality. it's inadequate, it's unreliable, it's subject to frequent interruptions, and it's actually making a huge toll on the economies, the growing economies of the to developing world. at the world bank we do a lot of surveys with businesses around the world, and we find that in about one-third of our client countries, citing energy is the number one constraint to doing business, the sheer lack of a reliable source of energy. not only that, but in parking

lots of the world that have little energy available, it's incredibly expensive. we're used to paying maybe 10-15 cents per kilowatt hour, in parts of africa people are paying between 20 and 40 cents. so the inequities whether you look at it in terms of access, in terms of the quality, in terms of the pricing, the inequities strike you on all sides, and that's why we've got to achieve energy access as a really important global development objective. >> and the world bank's objective is to do this by 2030. are you on track to do that? >> well, by 2030, indeed. this is the so-called sustainable energy for all movement that u.n. secretary-general ban ki-moon launch inside 2012. our president soon joined him as co-chair of that initiative, and under business as usual there's no way we're going to meet 2030. we have to really start doing things very differently. if you look at the past 20 years, we recently looked back over the 20 years of history,

the energy axis is going up by roughly one percentage point a year. if we continue to move at that pace, we'll barely keep up with the population growth that we anticipate over that period of time. so if we are going to meet the universal access challenge, we have to start to do things very differently. we need to have a huge commitment to scaling up resources for energy access which, by the way, today is only attracting about $10 billion of financing a year. we estimate that between $50 and $70 billion a year would be needed if we're going to meet the challenge by 2030. so there's a lot of work to be done. >> howard, let me turn to you. i mean, you are the nation's bookkeeper of energy use, i guess. until a way that's what eia does in part, sort of an independent part of the energy d., quasiindependent at least. >> we provide independent and impartial information. >> right. >> no one says what floor my office has to be on, though, so there are ways -- no, we have a

very strong independence in terms of the work that we do. >> right. and since vivien was talking about this half of the graph a little bit, maybe i could ask you to talk about the other half of the graph. >> let me say a couple of things about, i mean, really interesting comments. didn't know what these guys or were going to say. you know, one thing i was reminded of, you know, sounds like yogi berra, prediction is hard especially if it's about the future. the world will be different probably, and i should say as rob knows because we talk with him and his people quite a bit, you know, we also prepare outlooks that look out, and then in broad terms i think, you know, our, what we call our reference case but, again, the world could develop quite differently, has the same structure here with almost all the growth in energy demand occurring in the developing countries, primarily in asia and also in the middle middle east

as well. and flat, slightly increasing, he has slightly decreasing energy use in the particular developed countries. >> how do we get away with that -- >> well, there's a lot of things. the question always is what drives energy use, and there are three things going on. i think the biggest driver of energy use would be a change in per capita income. and certainly there are many parts that the developing world is growing faster economically than the developed world, and we expect china and india to slow down somewhat from their historical levels but on a per capita basis they're growing, you know, pretty strongly relative to the developed countries. >> they're starting to catch up to our standard of living. >> and that has all those implications. the response to growing income is not the same exactly in the developing countries and the developed world. in fact, income -- energy use in the developing world may be more

sensitive to growth and income because they're going through a stage as was described, you know, where more appliances, more cars, what have you. the other thing is population growth matters, and they're kind offed bed fellows because if you look at the u.s. and china, you know, they have very similar projected population growth actually. you know, india -- sorry, the u.s. and india have very similar projected population growth. europe and china have similar projected population growth. the middle east has a lot of population growth. so the middle east has maybe lower economic growth than china and india but more population growth. so those population growth, economic growth driving energy up, what's driving energy down, i think potentially or -- because we're having some population growth and some economic growth in the traditional industrialized countries, but there's also a reduction in energy intensity. and that's occurring in the other countries as well.

>> can you define energy -- >> well, energy intensity might be units of energy used per dollar of economic output. and that's falling significantly. >> right. in fact, your outfit just put out new numbers that said that carbon dioxide emissions which are related to energy use have fallen by 3.8% or fell by 3.8% in 2012, yet there was, what, too much economic growth, right? >> but on the other hand, it's also the case that, you know, in the united states let's say i don't know how you think of what the economy should have been doing, but, you know, the economy is just sort of getting back to its 2008 level now. >> right. >> and if the economy had grown, let's say, 2.5% a year for four years, it would have been 10% bigger, there might have been significantly more energy use. so the economy does matter for energy use. energy use in the united states took the biggest dive in 2009 when the economy really collapsed. so it's a different relationship

to the economy on this side to have picture than on that side of the picture, but it does matter in both places. but again, this notion of greater, you know, improvements in energy intensity -- which are occurring everywhere, in fact, they're faster, you know, in our baseline projection. again, no facts about the future is a way another eia add mer had put this, even though intensity in china is improving faster than the u.s., it's the higher economic growth that is really driving up their projected energy consumption, the population growth in other parts of the world coupled with economic growth. >> rob, let me ask you one thing that i think your report focuses on is efficiency to explain why the oecd graph so flat, right? the fact that when you look ahead, you're expecting this

efficiency to keep going. could you dig into that a little deeper? >> to give you a couple of examples, as in the developed economies, the oecd economy, as we move into power general ration transitions and the supply of electricity, they are different efficiencies. and natural gas combined cycle power plants are very efficient, 55, 60% conversion of electricity, and so as we move into a power venn ration future that has a different mix, you get more efficiency in there. in the u.s. there's -- i don't know, a lot of different numbers say 20, 25% growth in electricity demand but maybe only a 5-7% growth in fuel from our perspective. you won't see that necessarily in the developing world because they're using a lot of coal

which is not as efficient as natural gas. they may not have the supplies of natural gas, and so you also see other dynamics that are coming into play. transportation, before i leave that, let me just touch one more thing. >> yeah. >> vehicle transportation is important globally, and we do see efficiency really penetrating around the world. the technology is being built into vehicles today, it's really going around the world. and that's have a pretty significant impact, because we're going to double the number of cars on the road, but we're only going to -- we'll see, essentially, flat transportation file demand. >> so that's basically doubling fuel efficiency. >> to a degree. there's a bit of driving differences, but there's a lot of efficiency there. sorry. >> so we have of what rob says i would agree with, some of it i might not agree with. >> absolutely, yeah.

one thing to keep in mind, vivienne spoke eloquently about what we should do and what our goals should be and fairness and things like that and what policy should be. rob's projection, i think, implicitly includes some policies to address carbon dioxide emissions, you know, carbon prices, what have you author rolled in there -- that are rolled in there. and in some sense they drive some of that transition that he sees going on. because we're not a policy group, it's not that we necessarily disagree that we should be doing something about energy fairness or greenhouse gases -- remember, the representative from exxonmobil wants to do something about greenhouse gases -- but we don't build that into our baseline. and that has some, you know, significant implications. >> this it's why your numbers lk somewhat different. >> somewhat. butbut, again, you can build all

these mode els that you want to, but a lot will depend upon behavior, certainly things like vehicle models of travel can be very -- there is a relationship. one thought there was a relationship to employment, unemployment and employment are not necessarily the inverse of each other since sometimes people leave the labor force. that's something that's happened in this country a significant amount. but there's also a change in social mores. we don't know yet, but the internet, other ways of social interaction that may, you know, we look at young people in the front rows here and the licensing rates which we watch pretty closely changing a little bit. some of that might reflect the economy, some might reflect over preferences. >> yeah. the kinds of things going, those are some of the things that are very hard to predict.

>> right. but we have efficiency improving in the developing world on average pretty similar to what we have in the developed world. our difference is that we have significantly higher economic and in some cases population growth in the developing world. >> vivien, let me turn to you because one of the people who are conscious of the environmentallal consequences of this are saying, wow, this doesn't look really good. how is the world bank thinking about making energy available for all without cooking the planet? >> okay. we titled a paper a sustainable energy future for all, so we're committed to the goals i spoke of earlier. we're also convinced of the need to switch to a sustainable energy future. ban ki-moon's saying, yes, let's

shoot for universal access, but let's try and double the improvement of energy efficiency globally and double the share of the global energy mix. and we think these are two very critical policy areas for actually bringing about that shift towards a sustainable energy future. just to clarify, some people sometimes think there's a tension. wait to claire -- i want to clarify. it's actually a very small am of energy that we're talking about to give electricity to all current unelectrified households. that's not what's driving the climate equation, so i think that's an important thing to bear in mind. >> why would it be so little? which because, basically, we're talking about very modest needs, lighting, cell phone charging, television and so on --

>> air-conditioning. i mean, because that's the sort of -- sometimes what about air-conditioning if everybody got near an air conditioner in india, wouldn't we with in trouble? >> the amount you need to meet household needs is relatively small. developing countries have been doing a lot on this issue of energy efficiency that rob and howard have been raising. in fact, we looked recently at the last 20 years and saw that china has saved the most energy as a result of its efforts over last 20 years. it's quite extraordinary how much progress has been made. even today china's parameter is still higher than the global average, but if you look, it's come down by two-thirds, and there's still an ambitious

target to take that further. india has also done a great deal. the one region that stands out, actually, is the middle east, and that's quite worrisome. >> why is that? >> well, because there's a lot of subsidized, you know, a lot of the countries in the middle east provide fossil fuels, oil, natural gas at very low prices for internal consumption. i mean, if you don't like the cost you pay for a cab in washington, you know, take one in riyadh. you can go across the whole city for not too much money given the price of gasoline. you know, in saudi arabia. but, yeah, economists would tend to think, gee, this is like a no-brainer to get rid of, you know, subsidies and the like and that it's better to give people cash grants and let them pay real prices. you know, it can be a very trick key situation with respect to social unrest and other things.

a tendency of pointy-headed types. i used to be a professor before i became a bureaucrat to identify simple solutions that could easily be done. and when one comes to washington or goes to some other capital, a lot of times the simple solutions, you know, don't work same way that they work in the textbooks. so i think there is some effort to work to reduce, you know, some of the energy subsidies in energy-producing countries. i think their governments, in respects, would like to do that. i know many of these countries would maybe like to drive efficiency some other way than having to eliminate their subsidies through things like fuel economy regulations for cars. >> right. >> you know? but it's a really tricky business. >> yeah. rob, let me ask you about your graph on this point because if you look at other renewables, i suppose you could argue that doubles, but it's still over the period of 2030 which is what ban ki-moon was looking at, but it

still seems like a pretty thin line up there. are you expecting a lot of traction from the u.n. and world bank effort to have sustainable numbering for all by 2030? >> i mean, give him a break, you know? if it's not very much energy -- [inaudible conversations] in the non-oecd countries, right? >> i'm talking solar and wind, approaching 8, 9% of power generation -- >> 8-9% of -- >> of the electricity supply. this is the total global mix, and you've got a number of other pieces in there, so when you break it down and start looking at the individual pieces, they grow very quickly. the world energy system is massive, and when you try to -- we see these pieces increasing, but they are starting from very, very small levels with growth

rates that are much, much higher than any other energy source going. and it takes time for scale to build. >> right. >> and that's the key. >> so we now look at this currently of the world together, roughly 85%, 84% of the energy is fossil fuels. and in our, you know, baseline outlook -- which carbon-type policies that rob has built in and does not include sustainable energy for all fossil fuels, you know, in 2040 or on the order of a little more than 75%. but it's still pretty much a fossil fuel world unless the world, you know, takes, makes policy decisions -- which certainly my agency's never going to do. but the question is, you know, what are you going to do, where are you going to do it, and when are you going to do it? those are the three big questions that apply to climate, that apply to everything. we don't have the role of trying

to guess what the policymakers will do. the policymakers come to us with something and say look at this, what effect would it have -- >> right. >> -- we'll do that. but we're not involved in the same maybe game of guessing what they might do or saying what they should do if you want to describe, you know, maybe how we differ. >> yeah. and not because with, again -- [inaudible conversations] >> they don't pay me enough. >> i just wanted to comment on the point of rob's, because i think it's important which is, you know, very much progress have we really made on renewable energy? we all know we've lived through all these double-digit growth rates for the last couple of decades, but the truth is that global energy demand is also growing very fast. so, in fact, if you go back to 1990 we're at 16.6% renewable, and we've grown to 18% renewable. i mean, it's hardly budged despite the enormous revolution that we've gone through. and when you look at what that renewable energy is, a lot of it

is actually bionumbering, it's traditional biomass, a lot of the rest of it is hydro, and the poster child, the windmills, is solar panels, the modern stuff is really just plying about 1% -- supplying about 1% of global energy demand today. so that has a long way to go. >> right. and when you talk about the biofuels, that gets back to cooking with dung or wood, and those are health issues and a lot of other things. >> with it also gets back to putting, you know, crops into your fuel tank. >> right. >> which is another element of biofuel. >> for this country in particular, yeah. >> two things, one, what vivien mentioned earlier is a significant proportion in the developing economies, and it's across africa, india and still in china. and it's actually so inefficient.

any introduction of a modern fuel for cooking or heating of water actually significantly improves the efficiency of the overall mix. and that's one of the reasons residential demand doesn't go up that quickly because you're significantly changing over the efficiency of the overall blend. but i wanted -- howard's kind enough to mention our assessment function. because we use the outlook as a business planning tool, we need to take a reasonable view of where we think the world is headed. so about five years ago we began considering a proxy model in our forward estimating of greenhouse gas policy cost. we're not proposing a particular kind of policy, but we're recognizing that governments around the world will be taking some action, and that policy will impact business. and so we want to take an

assessment of that. so we've also expanded that outside of the oecd starting in 2030 to also include the developing economies but really on a sliding scale. the wealthier ones like china will do more and maybe in africa less, and so we've incorporated that. and that does tend to make, to drive decisions around power generation fuels, industrial fuels, it has an effect on demand, it has an effect on efficiency. and so we're not proposing a particular set of policies, we're just suggesting for us to be prepared for business investments in the future, we need to recognize goths are moving -- governments are moving that way. >> right. and the ipcc came out earlier this month with its first of three reports on the intergovernmenl panel on climate change, the u.n. climate organization. and one of things you said was maybe you could look at this in a little different way saying if we want to hold the climate toll two degrees centigrade, how much more carbon can we put in the

air, and we're about halfway there. do you look at it that way and say is anyone sort of trying to take these graphs and say, first of all, it doesn't look as though we're on target anywhere near -- >> this doesn't meet it. >> right. >> that's not his goal. >> right. is there a way, is anyone trying to look at it in that fresh way? >> you can work backwards. >> right. >> you know, it's not, you're not going to be a genius, and i guess this 2% goal is sort -- >> two degree. >> two degree goal from the pre-industrial level, i think, is the official -- >> right. >> it is the stated preference, but one of the things that, i mean, you -- you're an economist? okay, so often times you could say like certainly in washington we learned that stated preference and revealed

preference can sometimes be quite different. and so, yes, this graph or our version of this graph which is slightly different but close enough is not going to produce that outcome. so that's this issue of, well, when are people potentially if that's what they really, if people want what is stated as the goal, then something would have to change -- >> right. >> and the question is who's going to really do that. >> right. this in your judgment, obviously, implicit in this offis that we are not actually shooting for that two tree goal. >> we don't drive for a particular solution. what we do is we take a view of how policies evolve and what that leads to. and as howard says, if you look around at the iea or other credible, the eia, other credible forecasters, they're all showing that fossil fuels remain a significant portion of the mix. other energy supplies are

definitely growing. tear growing faster, and they're taking on a larger share. but they are not going to be, you're not going to end up with a fossil, with an energy mix that doesn't require a significant am of fossil fuels to continue to drive support world development, economic growth across the world, electricity demand and all those places. >> and vivien, i guess, obviously, that's a tough situation for the bank because you don't want to say, no, people can't have more energy, right? because that would violate this two degree goal. but it must be a difficult judgment for you to figure out how to balance the client needs verse is us the very real needs of -- >> certainly, and it's definitely a tension that we feel very much at the bank. and our approach is in the case of smaller, lower access countries to focus on the access agenda and with some of our larger clients we focus on how to help them shift towards a

more sustainable energy future. and, frankly, you know, this is a transition. we're not going to a achieve this overnight, but we need to work over a number of decades. and where we can see we can really make an impact is, first of all, tapping sources of numbering that are abundantly available and haven't yet been unlocked. an important example is hydropower. be you look across africa and asia, barely 10% of hydro has been exploited to date. so we're working very actively to help countries unlock that. geothermal is an area people are waking up to, again, they're relatively cost effective and available to meet base load needs. but what we're finding is that for many developing countries they simply don't have enough renewable energy resources within their own national boundaries to meet their own growing needs. take case of india, for example. india is doing quite well on renewable energy.

they've had successful experiments with solar and wind energy, they're investing in hydro, but if you look at the amount of potential on indian territory and you look at the growing demand in india, you simply couldn't meet all of that from renewable sources. so what we're seeing the is that off is solution is reasonable. we have to look beyond the boundaries of countries toward a subregion area and try to interconnect countries, try to build those pieces of infrastructure that may unlock a cleaner and more sustainable energy future. south africa is the largest economy in sub-saharan africa, it's very much a coal-fired system, but us f it has huge hydropower resources. south africa could power much of the continent in and of itself. but it's a huge challenge to actually unlock those resources. massive investments are needed, the policy environment needs to be, you know, made ready for investments. often enormous amounts of transmission may be needed to

move power between supply and demand areas, so we're working on a long-term basis. we help countries to meet their immediate needs but always in the context of a longer-term plan that will unlock these -- >> you know, of course, hydro many, many would have significant environmental concerns. again, not us because we don't have concerns about anything -- [laughter] >> just the numbers, please. >> there are, there are a couple of microphones up, and i would invite people to come up to ask questions. but, and as the conversation progresses, rob, did you want to add manager? >> i want to add one comment about, so as part of our outlook we also do forecast what the level of energy-related co2 emissions are, and we show the oecd trending down, down 20be percent percent. -- 20 plus percent. emissions are only up in the

20-25% range. and we actually have emissions plateauing and starting to trend down. countries like china will be part of that shift as they implement their policies. and so while we're not driving to a particular result, we do have a different emissions future than we have an energy future. and so i think that's an important thing to recognize. if you want to look at our reports, they're actually online under exxonmobil. you can look at the energy outlook, it goes into the discussion about that. >> right. and part of today's report for the domestic energy was one reason we saw, actually, a decline in 2012 in the emissions was the switch from gas to coal -- >> coal to gas. >> coal to gas. because gas -- well, actually, if you were talking about the current year, it would actually be a little bit of a switch back to coal. >> yeah. >> so this is all in a country like the u.s. that has a lot of different types of capacity that can be dispatched. the decisions in areas of what

units to run can be sensitive to prices, and in early 2012 natural gas prices were extremely low, and it was cheaper for very traditional coal-fired utilities, especially during low seasons where they didn't need to run all their plants, to run sol of their gas plants in preference to their goal plants. in the year it's up talking technical terms from what it was last year, and that's enough to push back toward using coal plants more. so, you know, all these -- you know, markets are really important to this and what global gas prices are going to be, how much natural gas there's going to be in the world. you know, all these things whether there's an implicit or explicit price on carbon, when i was a kid growing up in new york, electricity demand in the united states was growing at 8 or 9% a year. that means that the amount of

electricity you needed to generate doubled every eight or nine years. you know? now electricity demand in the united states over the last decade grew at under 1% a year. our projection has it under 1% a year all the way out to 2040 and with policies that may or may not be adopted, it could be even lore than that. >> yeah. >> you know, if electricity demand is growing in some of these countries at 3 or 9% a year to return to vivienne's thing, you know, if they have to double barrel electricity generation every eight or nine years, you know, if i was looking at china and whether they're going to succeed in capping out their use of control, i'd look at how fast their demand is going to grow. >> rob, let me ask you about that, i grew up in the '90s in the -- '70s in the oil price, and we were running out of oil to. i think domestic consumption peaked there, so where's all this oil going to come from?

you know, a lot of people might have been heft with the impression that we're, you know, we're running out of this stuff, and we're going to have to have some sort of transition. you don't seem to be suggesting that. >> no. the results we've published would say that less than half of the world's oil supply would be consumed by 2040. talk about where is it coming from. here in the united states we see an oil production from rocks similar to the shale gas. not exactly the same, but close to it. similar technology. oil sands in canada are a big, big supplier. technologies that allow us to drill deeper in other fields. access b other developments around the world. when the gas is produced, we see a liquid, it comes into gas, it's called natural gas liquids. you're probably familiar with propane for a gas grill. that is part of the fuel mix as well. some goes to plastics.

is so we see a wide range of technology access applies. and so we see a significant resource increase in that. and actually from a north america stand poin, we see a lot of those supplies. but gleblly, we see a growing supply. you look at natural gas, the gas resource in the u.s. has grown significantly. nothing changed but technology. and over the last ten years the amount of gas that we belief we can access in north america has grown significantly. and that's true outside the united states. the numbers now would say there's a 200-year supply globally -- >> 200 years. what does that imply for price? i mean, are we going to have fossil fuels as cheap as we do right now? >> you know, it's hard to know. i mean, that's one of the things that is the most -- by the way, if you look at exxon's web page, you won't find much about prices. if you look at ours, we take a

jump at it, but i've got to tell you, oil markets are global markets, what's happening in north america is important, but it's the global supply-demand balance. you know, the middle east remains very important to that. if you can tell me what the political future of iraq, iran and venezuela not in the middle east but also very important are, you know, then maybe i'll have a better view of what oil prices might be. natural gas prices, it's very important to distinguish between technically recoverable resources and economically recoverable ones. now, over time maybe with advances in technology i think rob and i would agree that more and more of what's technically there becomes economically recoverable, you know? but at some point you might get to a point -- i don't know that you will -- where some of the alternatives that are viewed as even cleaner than natural gas, i

mean, you know, might actually economically drive out higher, the higher cost natural gas supplies. but right now we are looking at, you know, for the foreseeable future pretty attractive natural gas markets. i think would have been the wes is are natural gas prices in the rest of the world going to break down toward the u.s. levels which are much, much lower unlike the oil price which is the same everywhere, natural gas prices in the u.s. are far larger than in japan or china or europe. and how that market converges or doesn't converge, economists tend to think it will converge. but exactly where is a very tricky question. and that's a going matter a lot more natural gas. no one's mentioned nuclear yet in -- >> yeah, i'd like to. there are microphones. let me is ask you, vivien, no --

to what extent is the developed world hamstrung by boundaries? is there an economic incentive for them to develop fossil fuels, and do they have enough like africa or india? >> right. it varies fending on the country. one of the very exciting developments in recent years has been the huge, vast discoveries in africa actually. i mean, nigeria and angola have long been known to be major producers, but mozambique has come out of almost nowhere to be energy producers. so that can be the change in question for africa as part of this energy transition. and not only is natural gas attractive from a greenhouse gas perspective, but also the local application impact is minimal compared to coal. and coal is also a domestic issue in countries like india

and china. >> right. that's a big issue for china. i think one reason why rob is projecting that they will eventually start coming down, just not just for greenhouse gas prices, but china really is choking on its coal fumes, right? and they recognize that's a prick health irk -- issue and, i guess, there's some days -- [laughter] >> that is true. i actually caught in pittsburgh for some time, and you could go up to the top of the cliff overlooking pittsburgh and in the little station there was a picture of pittsburgh at noon january something 1919, and it was pitch pack. it was the horrible. one thing to keep in mind, there is some synergy between these twoak issues and the concerns related to greenhouse gas. but as the u.s. has demonstrated, it is possible to separate those in the sense that

putting on scrubbers or selective catalytic reduction and many of the things that many some cases are unstalled in china but for very interest reasons aren't turned on -- [laughter] but it's definitely true that you can, quote-unquote, solve the problems by going from a dirtier fuel to a cleaner fuel. but it is possible to solve the local pollution problems just by doing something about pollution problems and remaining with coal which would be probably unwelcome from a green haas gas perspective. but one should be to, you know, there's often a desire in addition to the gap between stated preference and revealed preference a desire to identify lots of win/win solutions. and sometimes, you know, the twins are not quite siamese, they're not quite attached to

each other. and i think this issue of local pollution and tbreephouse gas pollution -- greenhouse gas produce are not, you know, should not be conflated. >> let's take a question. please introduce yourself and ask a succinct question. >> my name's mike, i live in pennsylvania, and i work locally. so hopefully, that'll help when it comes to greenhouse gas. i had actually go questions, i don't believe that natural gas is as beneficial as is advertised when it comes to greenhouse gases. i mean, there have been studied studieds -- shuds that show it has higher carbon emissions than coal because of the energy it takes to actually extract the gas. and i guess that dose for unconventional oil as well because that is true to say that unconventional oil is more door

bonn intensive than the -- carbon intensive than the traditional oil to. so i guess the question for that would be in this grand scheme and this 2040 plan, does -- do those increased carbon emissions even though they stay at the level but you're using fuels, is that accounts for in any of these studies? i'm getting the impression not pause you're not really looking at carbon. and my second question to do with supply and demand. wouldn't it make more sense if it served some of these developing countries better, the ones that are actually impacted greater by greenhouse gases and climate change, by increasing energy efficiency beyond just doubling mileaging cars, but going even beyond that. in our own country and looking at the demand and the

consumption of energy and in cases, i mean, every day i see ways that we can conserve money simply by, for example, adjusting our thermostats and not leaving our cars running. and the only way to do that is increase the price of carbon. increase what it costs to use fossil fuels. and will automatically change people's behavior because you're not going to convince them at saying that's a good idea -- >> that second question, maybe i'll ask rob to take on the first one, how -- is this energy at the end of pipe? be and how much energy goes into getting us this energy? >> well, we actually do take account of the energy required to produce fuels and the resources of part of the

business that we're in. and we look at that and track that and understand the trends of efficiency in there. recent studies like by the university of texas regarding shale gas developments in upstream emissions, i think, is starting to work on this issue to clarify that some of the statements people made aren't true and maybe those emissions aren't as pie as hemo-- as high as people thought. ..