junior. and he said, the picture shows you. he said you look like an, but there's a tape recorder they are and you have your notebook. and that picture saved me. he's right. i looked at carper marks in the picture, but that was the proof. host or just in seattle, you've been very patient. url with kitty kelley. >> caller: hi, katie, how are you doing? >> guest: hide. >> caller: i was wondering about a couple of your books. >> host: just then, i am going to put you on hold. as you were told come you got to turn the volume down on your tv, otherwise there is a little bit of a delay. so just hang on for a few more minutes. we are going to try this call

from ron in everett, washington. >> host: >> caller: good morning, good afternoon. i was one in which her educational background is, where you went to school. did you have any historical methodology type that says our writing classes, that everything? thank you. >> guest: well, you might be very pleased to know that i finish school and graduated and started graduate school at the university of washington. isn't he from everett, washington? which is for a scoop jackson and i think. i majored in english education. i wanted to be a schoolteacher and i wanted to go on to graduate school and get graduate degree and eventually teach in college. but i never finished graduate

cool. >> host: why? >> guest: because i guess work out of the way. i came to washington for the six-week job and then i was going to go back to new york city. and i thought i'd work there. and i had hoped i'd work at the ford foundation and continue my graduate work. but i guess i just got so caught up. at the time i worked for senator maccarthy, it was before, during and after the vietnam war and his presidential campaign. it's really quite a turbulent time. in fact, i am convinced that métis and 68 is probably one of the most years we have her there too. i have respect for maccarthy when he set up for the president

against the war in vietnam and that really -- all of us on this staff were working 24 hours. so i put aside those that maybe there's still redemption. maybe i still have time. >> host: tania davis who is the producer of this program often we'll talk with author's ahead of time and ask them what they're reading, but are their influence is, favorite authors. we want to show you that right now. this is booktv on c-span2 and we are talking to kitty kelley. ♪

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♪ science and engineering escape to do because they'll see everett large on the paper. there'll be cause for engineers to help us go fishing on your robe over there is liquid for billions of years.

we're going to dig through the soil to look for life. look at the nasa portfolio today. it's got biology, chemistry, physics, aerospace engineers, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, all the stem fields. as technology, engineering and math in the nasa portfolio. nasa is a slide that society caps for innovations. >> host: kitty kelley, you write for you told us that you think philip roth is a genius. why is that? >> guest: i do think philip roth is a genius. first of all, his writing, his

imagination, his mind had. the alchemy of the whole thing is some pain. i think american pastoral was a phenomenal book. i haven't read every single thing and i can hardly wait to finish what i have stacked up beside that that. it authors may. you know, if you came into the house, you would think i'm part of the collier brothers. i had "the new yorker" staff to, and newspapers. i sometimes think, do you think these books are just going to come into your bios knows this? but i have been piled up to read. i do think philip roth is a genius and i am so sorry that he

said recently that he isn't going to write anymore. >> host: if you are currently not working on an unauthorized biography or another but, what is your daily life right now? >> guest: i clean my sock drawer. i read. i have worked all of my life and work to me, especially now, because my husband, i wish i had -- if they focus. it is a purpose in life and i have to believe in what i am writing. and i need to work. so to not be working makes me crazy, crazy. so i don't like to go too long without working. >> host: do you have children?

>> guest: i don't have children. i don't have children. >> host: (202)585-3880 in eastern central times i would like to talk with kitty kelley. 585-3881. in the not in our pacific time zone. go ahead and file. if you can't get the wrong phone lines, send kitty kelley a comment via twitter@booktv is our twitter handle. you can send an e-mail, booktv@c-span.org. finally, make a comment on her face but page. we have an hour and 20 minutes left with our guest, kitty kelley. eric posts on her face but h., barbara walters said looks like kelley is all about finding dirt, not the truth. >> guest: i remember when she said that and that is an accurate quote. i don't agree with it at all. i think harper walters is coming in a very negative point of view. she was the subject of a very

hostile biography and she feels that way. she said that when the oprah book came out and she refused to have nailed the view to discuss the book. i sent her a copy of the book. i told her i read what she wrote, what she said. i disagreed with the. i thought it was beneath her really as a journalist and that if she read the book, she would see what a complete and honest and good portrait abayas of oprah winfrey. >> host: do you think the "oprah" book, the "nancy reagan" book, the george bush book would have been different if you've got an interview with opera, mrs. reagan, some of the leading bush's? >> guest: well, i did give her some of the leading bush is and i did get people very close to each of those people. it would have been different in

that i would have had to give up editorial control. they would've had to control. there was nowhere in the world they would have given an interview and giving me control. no way. and that's the difference between unauthorized biography and an unauthorized biography. i am not saying that unauthorized biography doesn't deserve its place on the bookshelf. it does. henry kissinger can write his memoirs, but i also want to read seymour hersh's take on henry kissinger as the man responsible for the bombing of cambodia. i can learn a lot through kissinger's memoirs, but i want the balance and i still believe that an unauthorized biography gives me a better chance. >> host: knowing what you know about jackie kennedy, john

kennedy. if you had known that, would you vote for john kerry for president, again knowing what you know now? >> guest: knowing what i know now and knowing what i know now about richard nixon, yes, i would vote for john f. kennedy. not simply because my last name is kelley. that would not have been the reason. i would vote for john f. kennedy based on the speech he gave in june of 1963 when he talked about civil rights and he introduced civil rights legislation. i think that speech ennobled his presidency. and his presidency was flawed. the cuban missile crisis, the step up in vietnam. but what he said on civil rights to me was a shining moment.

he taught about civil rights is a moral right, as something that's clear is the constitution and the soul of the scriptures. that night, after he gave that speech, his popularity went from 60% to 47% like that. ebbers was murdered that night. john f. kennedy went into the presidency as most presidents do, thinking foreign policy is going to be their biggest issue. with kennedy, it really wasn't. civil rights became an issue that he really hadn't seen and didn't know how to cope with. but i thought the speech he made in june of 63 was phenomenal and based on that, and knowing everything that we know, i would

vote for john f. kennedy. >> host: and in your book, "let freedom ring," the president afraid he might well democrats, southern segregationist dragged its feet on proposing comprehensive civil rights legislation. those who wanted him to stand tall on the issue of race came up short. >> guest: that is true. they did. they felt very strongly. in fact, many of the big 10 leaders of the civil rights march in washington felt that the president's legislation didn't go far enough. now, kennedy made a stance on civil rights. limited though it might have been and it took brandon johnson and kennedy's assassination to get the voting rights act and the civil rights bill passed. kennedy did not want that march

in washington. he thought martin luther king. this book, "let freedom ring," it's really the biography of one day in our life. august 28, 1963. and it shows you the tussle between president kennedy, who didn't want the march on washington, felt that the city was going to be covered in blood, chaos, violence. and martin luther king, who said the march will go on. and the two of them. there is negotiation after the negotiation. finally, in that picture you showed of president kennedy speaking to rfk. he said, well, if we can't stop it, will control the thing and they did. the march was decided it would be on wednesday so that people

couldn't take weekends on either side and stay in washington too long. they only got a permit to be on federal grounds from 9:00 a.m. and they had to be out of the city. out of the city by 5:00. they nationalized the national guard, the fbi. the establishment in washington, including the owner of the "washington post" just felt there was going to be chaos throughout the city. restaurants closed, retail shops closed. the government closed. employees were told to stay home. and the only person really who caught it, who understood what was going to happen was the comedian, gregory. he said, i'm telling you, he said i know all the senators and congressmen in the place is going to be put on fire. but he said it's going to be a sunday picnic.

and it was a sunday picnic. 250,000 people gathered in the nation's capitol. they came in by bus, by train, by charter planes. one guy rollerskate at from chicago. and it was a sunday pic name. the president had refused to attend and he would meet with the leaders before hand. he wouldn't speak at the lincoln memorial. but he did invite the leaders to come to the white house after the whole thing was over. president kennedy was absolutely ecstatic. he was so pleased by the march on washington. but with the kennedys were worried about, this is august of 63 and he's got to run for reelection in 1964. said he was very worried because

cli live southern senators and he had to get their vote in the south to be reelected and that was going to be impossible with the civil rights association. >> host: here is a picture of martin luther king in the big ten of the civil rights meeting with the speaker of the house at the time, john mccormack and majority leader carl albert. we want to show you this picture. kitty kelley, did you have a chance to talk to stem a tragic? >> guest: i didn't talk to stanley much about this. but i talked to him about martin luther king. stanley continued to follow king. and there's a picture in this book. it's a wonderful photograph from an artistic stand point, taken in chicago. you see these steps in a housing complex. this was in 1965.

martin luther king, by this time, was getting so much pressure from people who are losing faith in his blood and violence. stanley admired the same things in martin luther king that he admired and president kennedy. i think he saw two men with visions that were above and beyond the pedestrian. i think he saw a in martin luther king a real man. we were gifted to be given martin luther king at the time and i think stanley recognize that. >> host: >> guest: yes, i did. i used to visit coming in now,

stanley and i were very, very good family. one time when i went to his house he had this marine corps locker that he used as a coffee table. i said stanley, what do you have been there? he looked at me and he said new pictures. that stopped me. i didn't say anything else. so i went to other things. fine, fine, the years go by. after stanley dies, the marine corps locker sent to the house because i inherited. >> host: dgi you were going to? >> guest: no, i did not know i was going to inherit it. it was delivered. and john, my husband, so i i think that what is that? i said it is stanleys marine corps locker. he said within their? i said new pictures. he said were? i said stanley told me that

there were pictures. he said open it. i said no, i'm not going to open it. i don't want to remember stanley that way. john said i do. i said fine, you go ahead and open it. i went upstairs. john opened it and he didn't come upstairs for about an hour and a half. and when he came upstairs, he says you're not going to believe this. i said what? he said there aren't any pictures then mayor. he said there's a trove of letters from president kennedy and jackie and there are pictures and memos that stanley wrote to his editor and diary extracts that stanley had typed about covering the kennedys. i said you're kidding.

and we went downstairs and we went through everything. but one thing i could never get an answer to, there is a yellow guest towel, the kind you would hang in a downstairs bathroom. maybe you're in l.a. or somebody. and it was yellow light inc. and blue cross stitched initials, jfk. and there is no notation in the trunk where it came from. now, there was one note from jackie that said stanley much loved jackie. i thought, would she have really sent a guess that stanley? and then i thought, do you think maybe stanley pinched that when he were to hyannis or that somehow it got into his camera

bag? for one thing i never could answer. when i was doing the book, i thought it made me remember stanley ainu. i didn't know stanley during the 60s when he was so close to the kennedys. i was still in school. but one-time stanley drove me through washington d.c. and pouring it to a building that was deserted and nurses dirty, filthy towel in the window. stanley said that's where i came from. and i looked at this photographer who is so well-established and wore cashmere sweaters and drove a great car and lived in a townhouse. i said really, you came from that kind of poverty craxi said deanna, that towel says it all. well, when i found a towel,

eight guest towel, and his strong, that was his rosebud and the defendant came. i can't answer. >> host: where is this picture i.d. taken the flap of the boat? >> guest: that was taken at the reagan white house and eastern. >> host: the photo shoot you were talking about? >> guest: now, this is a different photo shoot. this was when stanley went to the white house i think to photograph make detert. the photograph where i met and see was during the winter. and just to show you her power and her influence and how she

knew everything going on, the white house photographer had sent me the picture holding the light shield in stanley is taking a photograph of president and mrs. reagan. and so i said, could i get it autographed? and they sent it back to the oval office. the mrs. reagan must have known who it was. and so the president signed it ronald reagan. i thought i was telling. >> host: here is the iconic image that stanley took of jfk and john junior plane in the desk. robert in cooperstown, new york, uri with kitty kelley.

this is booktv on c-span2. >> caller: in 1950 weight avocet the time a correspondent in chicago in life magazine sent me to los angeles to do a piece on the teco when the gangster who had recently gotten out of the neil allen federal penitentiary. i had known niki and i got it wrong with him. i spent a week with him. one night when we went out to dinner, and we walked in a restaurant and sinatra was sitting at a table. as mickey walks by, so not sure reached out like a funding cut the wanting a pat on the head. mickey walked by and snubbed him. when we sat down at the table, i asked mickey, why did you snob sinatra? he said he is not a man, he's not a man. what do you mean he is not man? i'm going to use an expletive

deleted here. and mickey said well, johnny stomp and not go has been expletive deleted. sinatra said to me, i want you to get into stuff. i said me quite she was your wife. you are the man, you do it. he said he never did. i didn't know who stomp anonymous until a year or two later when lana turner's daughter stabbed him. >> guest: how i wish i had maggio when i was doing this sinatra book. i believe every word of that. based on information and belief in all of the research i have done, true story. >> host: hotted frank sinatra get involved in politics and why did he go from jfk to ronald reagan? >> guest: well, his mother, his mother who is euphemistically called the

midwife in hoboken. she did abortions and she also delivered babies. but she terminated a lot of pregnancies. that's very controversial at that time. it was a very catholic 12 square block area. she was a big democrat and she was part of the democratic machine. so he grew up as a democrat. and he was very much for harry truman. he claimed to have remained a democrat all of his life. both frank sinatra, what drove him was trying to be part of the most respectable petticoat he coded coat in our society. that would be the president of the united states.

he despised ronald reagan back in the 60s, despised and. he would sing, the lady is a and instead is saying it is cold and it's. that's why the lady is a. but he also said he'd leave california if reagan never became governor. he was governor for two terms. and then, when reagan became president, sinatra came around. before that, he has supported hubert humphrey. he supported hubert humphrey in the midst of the vietnam war, when humphrey would not go against lbj. sinatra is with him. but then he went with nixon.

he raised a vast amount of money for those men, a vast amount of money. >> host: to his relationship with jfk suffer after jfk got it? >> guest: it did. it did because rfk went after organized crime and sinatra was it just connected to organized crime. he did business with organized crime. he was part owner of a gambling place in lake tahoe with sam gioconda who is the mom washed from chicago. years later i interviewed judith campbell asner, who was what they called a party girl. she was then having an affair with sinatra. sinatra introduced her to jfk.

she many years later showed me documentation and had taken messages from jfk to sam g. but the relationship changed. sinatra felt that his house and he completely rejected. he had a plaque on one of the doors there that said this is the room that jfk flopped and in the date was engraved. ..

>> and peter lawford told me that he took a sledgehammer to the heliport landing and busted up the rooms. just went insane. and that was the end of the relationship. up to that point, they had been very, very close. sinatra had campaigned for kennedy, raised a lot of money, created the campaign song, he'd flown to hyannis port.

very close to them. but after that, no. >> host: a couple of conspiracy theories, and this is from lawrence, an e-mail from lawrence. did you come across any evidence that george bush was in the plaza when jfk was killed? >> no, i did not come across evidence that he was there, but there is a letter in the fbi files averring that. but i did not come across any evidence. it is interesting, the assassination has raised so many conspiracy theories that most people, polls show, believe that we don't know the entire story. >> host: what do you believe?

>> guest: i believe that it was one lone gunman. but i'm a minority. and i suppose i believe that because i haven't seen any solid evidence to the contrary. >> host: kennedy family, marilyn monroe, were they involved in her murder? have you investigated that issue? >> guest: i didn't really get into that. not that i avoided it, but again , there was no solid evidence. yes, there is a lot of evidence that marilyn monroe had an intimate relationship with both president kennedy and robert kennedy. but i interviewed peter lawford for several hours, and -- not that that would have been the beall and end all of that -- be

all and end all of that question, but with i just have never seen any evidence. it would be embarrassing to the family, and this is probably how the conspiracy started, because marilyn monroe's death, if that brought up the involvement at that time with president kennedy, that would have been the end of the election. i mean, think about it. we're talking back in 1961, '2 and '3. we didn't really know anything about president kennedy's extramarital affairs for many years later. >> host: kitty kelley is our guest this month. rita in wilmington, delaware, please go ahead with your question or comment. >> caller: hi, thank you. first of all, if i had won the lottery, i would give it to you just to be sitting in that care

right now. next to this remarkable human being. cat, my admiration for you is -- i had one comment i was going to make, and now i have five or to six pages of notes i've been taking. you have courage that -- [inaudible] once said that mass media would be the saving grace of the public because it would expose the people who were -- sexual abuse of children, etc. but it would eventually turn on itself and become so big that it would be what it's become. i don't know if you're familiar with matt, the aibi who writes for "rolling stone" mag.

he said i can't understand why mass media, all these tv shows and everything can can't find all these facts that little "rolling stone" magazine can find. and it reminds -- and, in fact, taibi, as in cat, the guy that reminds me of you because -- i'm trying to get all this out -- you fascinate me. first of all, i thought you would be all wrinkled and older, because, you know, you've written so many books, and i look at this woman who is, you are absolutely beautiful, first of all. and i think i love barbara walters, but there might be a little bit of jealousy there. i could say a thousand things to you right now. >> host: all right, rita, in wilmington, delaware, i think we got the point. >> guest: i want to marry her. [laughter] she did mention a fabulous

journalist, and, rita, i have to tell you when the nancy reagan book came out, it was extraordinarily controversial. and one reason it was, was a story that was placed on the front page of "the new york times" about the book. it was written by maureen dowd, and it was a straight piece. it wasn't a column, it was we got an advance copy of in this book, and this is what it says. well, the fact that "the new york times" had beatified kitty kelley by putting this book on the front page caused their journalists to go crazy. by that i mean they a really got upset. and there was a big staff meeting, and there was a big hullabaloo. and later harrison call lis bury -- sallies bury who was an

icon at "the new york times," foreign correspondent, he said that the outrage is that it took kitty kitty kelley to put these things in print instead of the media that covered the reagan administration. and i always thought it is better to be an outsider looking in you're looking to write the truth. now, that's all find and well and sounds very righteous, you also pay a price. >> host: this is from joe in los angeles. i wanted to know which biographers or biographies you admire. also i believe in your biography on sinatra you were the first to find that frank sinatra's mother was arrested for practicing abortions. >> guest: yes, that is true about the sinatra, about

mrs. sinatra. but that arrest record budget as interest -- wasn't as interesting to me as finding out that frank sinatra had been arrested on a morals charge, and he'd been put in jail for three days. the only reason i really cared about that is he testified under oath to congress that he had never been arrested. and when i was researching the book, i did not know what a morals charge was. this is in 1939. and i have to tell you, when you're writing about someone and you're trying to find sources, the hardest people to find are women with because they change their names. and they go from smith to whatever. so i wanted to find this woman who had leveled the morals charge and had put frank sinatra into jail.

and it was one of the hardest things i ever did. first, i had to locate her, i had to get the arrest record, i had to verify that he had, indeed, been in jail. and when i finally found her, i found her in lodi, new jersey, live anything a tiny little place -- living in a tiny little place. i didn't call her because i thought she'd hang up on me. i thought if i wrote her -- i didn't know what to do. and i asked a friend of mine, and he said just show up. i said, show up? he said, show up. knock on the door. i said, i can't do that. but i did do it. and i was terrified. and she let me in, and i had the records, and i laid them all out on the table for her, and you

know they always say leave your tough questions til the end? well, i don't do that because i'm afraid i might get with kicked out, so i start with the -- and i laid it all out. i said i just wanted to ask you about this. and she told me that she had that frank sinatra thrown in jail because he had promised to marry her. she was pregnant, and he backed out of his promise. and her uncles were policemen, they arrested him. dolly sinatra begged her to get her son out of jail. and this woman taught me, she taught me so much because i asked her why she had never told in this story before. millions of books had been written and magazine articles, and this had never come out. and she looked at me and said

nobody ever asked. it was such a good lesson to me. and i have to keep learning it every single time i write. >> host: first part of joe's question, wanted to know which biographers or biographies you admire. >> guest: i admire judith thurman who has written about isaac benson, and she wrote a book on colette. i love david mccullough's book on john adams. he writes a happy ever after kind of book. i loved his book on truman. justin kaplan. i should have a list long, long,

long. but i'll think about them and go back to that question. >> host: kitty kelley is the author of several books, jackie kennedy, elizabeth taylor, his way, about frank sinatra, then nancy reagan, the unauthorized biography came out in '92. the royals came out in '97, the real story of the bush dynasty, 2004. then oprah, a biography, 2010. her most recent are two photo books with her writing capturing camelot, stanley's images of the kennedys 2012, and then this year, let freedom ring, iconic images of the march on washington. what's been your biggest seller? >> host: well, it depends. "the royals" gives me the right to tell you that i've been published in 36 foreign languages. so i can act laity da about

that. frank sinatra sold a million copies in hardback. so it depends. and five of them have been number one on the new york times bestseller list. so i don't know which has been the most successful. i'd like to, i'd like to take the most recent one, "let freedom ring." i'd like to do a children's book. i have just joined the board of reading is fundamental, and they do such good work with the underserved children many our country -- in our country. i would like to write a children's book based on that. i don't know if i can, but i might try. >> host: vicki, st. augustine, florida. please go ahead with your question or comment. >> caller: yes, good afternoon. peter, i'd like to compliment you on your level of language and your dignity no matter what

guest you have, but particularly today. what motivated my phone call is ms. kelley's comment about her intolerance for hypocrisy. i share that as well, and i think perhaps she owes that gift to her father who did not encourage her to pretend that she wanted to be a nun instead of -- [laughter] my parents did the same thing with me. they always called a spade a spade. and what i'm interested in is this, another one of your great guests on "in depth" was david maraniss who wrote the story of barack obama: the story. up to and including his entrance into college. i'd like to see ms. kelley pursue that story after mr. obama leaves office. i'd like to see her pursue the story of his life and his wife's life, particularly i'm curious about how this man who was not that prominent in american politics was skyrocketed to the

presidency, and even though many of his policies are not popular, he is still beloved by so many of our people. so i'd like to see her do a chronicle of his life after he leaves the presidency explaining his success in politics and perhaps how the hypocrisy in both his family and his father's family and his mother's family may have influenced him. so i'd love to -- >> host: thank you, vicki. kitty kelley? >> guest: well, i hope some publisher was listening to her. [laughter] it certainly would be a worthy, a worthy project. a worthy project. >> host: just to note, that caller mentioned david mare ran mis-- mare ran mis. booktv covered his first

volume of "barack obama: the story," and, in fact, we traveled to kenya with him on that trip. he is currently working on the second volume, it'll probably be a while before it comes out, but he is working on that second -- >> guest: well, there you go. now -- >> host: barry tweets in, how has the obama administration acted regarding foia requests? do you have any experience there? >> guest: i know only what aye read. -- what i've read. i haven't had any experience of filing with the this administration. i do know that the president has said on more than one occasion that he wanted to have a more transparent administration. however, i've also realize that they've sort of finish read that they've sort of gotten in the way of those foia requests. it's very hard. i mean, i know when i was doing the bush book i filed freedom of

information to find out about george bush's -- george herbert walker bush's uncle. he had been dead for many, many years. now, he was the family's black sheep, there is no question about that. and so it was not in the bushs, it wasn't to their advantage to let this information out. i kept filing and filing and filing for it. he had died, he'd been dead for years, and they would not release it. >> host: so you've never gotten it? >> guest: well, i finally found state department employees who were able to fill in the fact that he died sad, blind, alcoholic and that george bush, who was head of the cia at the

time, had the body flown back to connecticut. and i went to the family grave site, and you can learn a lot sometimes by going to a cemetery. it's interesting. prescott bush has this great headstone, and then there's a very humble one for his wife and others. and way down if the corner there's a very small headstone for james bush. but i never got the freedom of information. it's still pending. >> host: in "the family" you write: bearing the brunt of presidential wrath has its consequences. after almost 30 years as a contributing editor for the washingtonian magazine, i was suddenly removed from the masthead. when i asked why, the editor said he disapproved of my book, its timing and its treatment of the bushs.

he decried my writing about the first family's private lives. this from a pan who oversees -- a man who oversees the magazine's personals for escort services, massages, exotic dancers and toys. phillip merrill has had a long relationship with george h.w. bush, george w. bush and vice president dick chainny. merrill currently serves as the president of the xm bank, an appointment he received from george w. bush. >> guest: i was contributing editor to the washington taupe yang magazine -- washingtonian magazine for over 30 years, and i did notice my name off the masthead. i was never called. i never got a letter. so i called jack, and i asked why. and he said it was because of the bush book and because of the intimate details of their

private lives. i said that's what a biography is. you never had any problem with jackie o., you featured it in the magazine. you never had any problem with nancy reagan, with frank sinatra, the british royal family. why this one? click. and so i do think it was because of the connection with the bushs. phil merrill subsequently took his own life, and his daughter is now running the magazine. but it is true, you do pay a price. you cannot expect to write a book like "the family" and then

be invited to a white house state dinner. [laughter] you'll pay your price for standing up. >> host: greg from hawaii asks, is kitty kelley your real name? it's very catchy. [laughter] >> guest: it is. but as i said earlier, i was with raised catholic, and at the time i was born you had to have a say about's name -- a saint's name. and when i was born my father said her name is kitty kelley, and the nun apparently said, mr. kelley, she needs a saint's name. and daddy said, she's pretty kitty kelley. and then said there is no saint pretty. [laughter] my father said, all right, legally she will be known as katherine. and so the first thing i learned when i went to catholic school was about saint katherine. and i learned -- to this day i

can tell you st. katherine, st. katherine, please come to my aid, pray that i may never die an old maid. a rich one, st. katherine, a poor one, st. katherine, but anyone better than no one, st. katherine. >> she was the patron saint of spinsters, old maids and -- >> host: is that a true prayer that you just told? >> guest: you don't think i made this up on the spot? [laughter] yes, it is a true prayer. and i learned it and had to learn it so often that i can still remember it. >> host: two questions for kit ty kelly -- kitty kelley, this was from robin heidi in palm springs. have you uncovered things about subjects that were too violative to reveal in print? >> guest: yes. i haven't, i haven't uncovered them in the terms of absolutely

documenting them. but i have been given information, for instance, when i was writing the sinatra book, i got a call from hogi carmichael jr., and he said to me you might not know my name. i said, well, i know hogi carmichael. he said that was my father. and he said my brother had worked with sinatra before, and he has a terrible temper. i said, yeah. by this time you know about sinatra's temper. you just are sort of fascinated by which direction it's going to take you. and he said you ought to call my brother in such and such a place, here's his telephone number, and ask him. and i said, well, what would i be asking him? and he said, well, he said i think my brother was there when

sinatra threw someone off a plane. and i said -- by this time i was kind of, oh, so he threw him off a plane. and i said what'd he do, just leave him on the tarmac? he said, no, he threw him off the plane. i said do you mean in flight? [laughter] and he said, yes. i said, he threw him off the plane in flight? and he said that it was a private plane flying from las vegas to palm springs. i said you sure about -- he said call my brother, just call my brother. well, i hung up the phone, and i thought, well, this is insanity. i mean, that's murder. and then i thought, well, call

the brother. you don't have to ask about that, you can just -- so i called the brother, and it's always helpful when you're doing something like this and you can call someone and say so and so told me to call instead of just calling cold. so at least i could say your brother hogie said to call. and he said, oh, how's he doing? i said, fine, i think. and i said i'm doing this book on frank sinatra. and he said good luck with that. and i said, i understand that you worked for sinatra for a while and there there was a pau. he said, yeah. i said, what was it like? it was okay. and that one word answers to everything until finally i said

hogie said that you were there one time when frank sinatra threw someone off a plane over lake merced going from las vegas to palm springs. and there was a pause, and he said hogie should never have told you that. now, was that a true piece of information, was i set up? i went back, i filed a foia with the faa to see the if there had been any deaths. i looked in the newspapers, i tried everything i could to document that, and i couldn't. so, of course, i didn't use it. and you don't know. you could be set up. very easily by someone.

>> host: well, rob and heidi have a follow-up question. >> guest: oh, dear. [laughter] >> host: how do you feel about government secrets and what edward snowden has done? >> guest: um, i believe in whistleblowers. i mean, i do think that whistleblowers perform a public service, especially when there's corruption in government or pharmaceuticals or harming people and they step forward. i'm mixed on snowden. i am mixed. i do believe that there's certain secrets that you have to keep for the security of our country, and perhaps i've changed a little bit on that since 9/11.

but i don't know quite what to make on the snowden thing. parts of it, parts of his disclosures i think have gotten us into a national debate and conversation that's constructive and good. and i don't know about the rest. i'm sorry to -- i'm not copping out, i just simply haven't come down hard on one side or the other. >> host: about 30 minutes left in our interview with kitty kelley, this month's "in depth" guest on booktv. phil in north hollywood, california, good afternoon. >> caller: hi there, peter. really love your show. i always get some new insight from writers that i've known or just discovered. ms. kelley, just curious to know with all the wonderful people you've met and some of the unwonderful people that you've met as far as celebrities or historical or political people, was there anyone that you kind of had a preconception or a

different perspective on that maybe changed that you were rather impressed with? and also just a second little follow-up question, a fun one. if you were going back into a time machine, who would you love just to sit down and have an interview with? but i'll take my answer over the phone. thank you so much. >> guest: i think the most impressive person i met was nelson mandela. i was in london researching the british royal family, and i had just come from watching the queen do this in a carriage, and i walked into the athen ian hotel, and everybody was so excited, all the men came over to ask, well, what was she wearing, and i looked over at

the elevator, and i said, um, who is that at the elevator? and he was standing with two men. and the concierge said, oh, someone from south africa, i think. but anyway, what was the queen -- and i said is that nelson mandela? yeah, that's the -- yeah, that's the name. i said, he's here in the hotel? and they were getting very impatient. they wanted to know what the queen was wearing, the broach and the this and that. and finally donald, the concierge said, if you will tell us everything, i'll let you meet him. i said, okay. so i gave them all the details of the queen's apricot suit and her hat and which way the feather went and so forth. and then i got a message the

next day that mr. mandela would like to meet me. oh, please. at such and such a time in his hotel room. and i went down to the front desk and said you just made this up, right? and they all said, no, i said that there was this writer from washington, d.c., and he said he'd really like to meet you. so they took me up to nelson mandela's room, and he wanted to talk to me about american publishers and why they were demanding that he put more of his personal life in his book and why, why would he do -- and we talked for about 20 minutes. and i was so moved to meet him. i asked him if he would sign, if

he'd give me his autograph. i mean, i feel like an idiot, and he was so gentle and kind and said i don't know why you'd want it, but, yes, can i say to kitty? i almost started crying. i said, uh-huh, you can. we talked a little bit more about publishing, and that was it. so this was somebody who more than lived up to what i thought. and i forget what was the rest of it? >> host: his second question was about being in a time machine, who would you like to go back and interview? >> guest: probably some bishop. [laughter] cardinal richelieu.

maybe st. katherine. will you go. there you go. >> host: are you still a practicing catholic, and what do you think of the new pope? >> guest: no, i'm not a practicing catholic. i can only say that because my father has gone to the angels. but i have -- and this might be where the hypocrisy, the anger at hypocrisy comes from. i can't stand what happened with the priests and the cover-up and the lives that have been damaged because of it. the -- this pope sounds great. this pope, he doesn't want the popemobile, he doesn't want the red gucci shoes. he seems to want to sidestep the divisive issues and concentrate

on the things that might bring people together. and just from what i've read and seen, this pope might be the real deal. who knows? i am not practicing, no. >> host: dana e-mails in to you, in the ariana stephanopoulos bio of maria callous, she claims onassis was at the white house the evening jackie returned from dallas in '63. do you know if this is true? >> guest: yes. i think -- i forget now, but, yes, they did know each other. it was on nasties' yacht in -- onassis' yacht in october of '63 where jackie went with franklin roosevelt jr. and his wife and

lee -- [inaudible] and her husband. and i think that onassis was at the white house, yes. he, in fact, the picture you showed, the iconic picture of. john john under the desk was taken when jackie left washington to go to greece, and the president called stanley can and said the coast is clear, you better get over here now, jackie's gone. because jackie was ferocious in protecting the kids and did not want caroline and john used for political purposes. and she had made it very clear to pierre salinger, the press secretary, and to the president that the children couldn't be used. but stanley had been communicating with the president for 15 months and wanted to do a

story called the president and his son. so as soon as jackie left to go on the yacht, the president called, and stanley spent four days and four nights photographing the president and his kids. and stanley showed him all the pictures afterwards, and kennedy was ecstatic. when jackie got home from greece, he showed her the pictures and said i know you're going to kill me, but -- and she said, according to stanley's notes, well, jack, this is an election year, i guess you can use the kids, and i'd even pose in the bathtub more you, whatever you need to get reelected. "look" magazine made that their cover story, and there was a six week lead time in those days. and that issue was on the flight to dallas. and mrs. kennedy told stanley later that she was so glad that

the president had violated everything he promised and that stanley had taken those pictures, because she would never have had them. and she said to him these will be my most precious, precious momentos. so stanley then, he became very close to mrs. kennedy, and he loved john. and mrs. kennedy invited him to john's little birthday party a year later. and stanley took him a helicopter because john john loved planes. and mrs. kennedy took photographs of stanley on the floor with young john trying to put the helicopter together. and she wrote a note to him saying now admit it, you have

never seen such action-packed photographs as the ones i took of you. so onassis was known to the family. >> host: and the reason jackie was on the yacht in october? >> guest: was because the kennedys' third child, patrick, had died. he was born, and he lived about 36 hours. and president kennedy was filled with such sadness. it was the first time he ever cried in public, and lee had told aristotle onassis, and he said i'll make my yacht available. have the first lady come. i don't even need to be there. and jackie was so grateful, she said, no, please, have him stay, it will be wonderful. so she went to onassis' yacht,

and that's where she recuperated. >> host: and dallas was one of the first trips she took, or the first trip she took after she got back. >> guest: that's right. >> host: there is a picture here in the kennedy book, the "capturing camelot" book of president kennedy and a woman named evelyn lincoln. and you write, kitty kelley: the president with his secretary, evelyn lincoln, who had worked for him since 1963. kennedy told ted sorenson whatever i do or say, mrs. lincoln -- in ten years he never called her evelyn -- will be sweet and up surprised. if i said, mrs. lincoln, i have cut off jackie's head, would you please send a box be, she would say, that's wonderful, mr. president, i'll send it right away. [laughter] did you get your nap? [laughter] >> guest: it's true. it's absolutely true. the very, very sad thing is that mrs. lincoln ended up on very bad terms with can the kennedy

family because there came a time when she tried to sell some of her keepsakes, things that she had collected, and jacqueline kennedy was very, very angry about that. jacqueline kennedy did a lot to create the myth of camelot, and anybody that got in the way of that myth incurred the wrath of the family. and i suppose the most outstanding example -- and it's the only example i can think of an authorized and an unauthorized biography -- was william manchester who wrote "death of the president. " and it is one of the best books i've ever read. it is the biography of one day, november 22nd, 1963. and manchester, who was a magisterial writer, had written

an adoring profile of john f. ken birdie, so mrs.-- kennedy, so mrs. kennedy went to him and asked him to write about the president's death. and she opened up all of the friends, all of the family, everybody to give him interviews. he was paid $40,000 advance, and he gave that to the kennedy library. and he said that he would give all the royalties from the book to the kennedy library. when he published the book or he got it ready for publication, and jackie couldn't read it, and the attorney general didn't want to read it. it was too raw, so they had their aides read it, and they objected to several things in it. and they a got into a real tussle. and jacqueline kennedy did not want certain b things published like -- certain things published like at that time no one realized that she was a heavy

smoker. when she was coming back on air force one with the president's body, apparently, she looked in the mirror, and she saw wrinkles, and she said how old she was getting. she had told this to manchester. she'd given him ten hours of interviews. she didn't want any of that in the book. he took some of it out, but he kept a lot in. but anyway, she said if you don't do everything i say, i'm going to sue you. and manchester, who was a marine with a purple star from world war ii, adored her and adored the president and felt that he had done b a really good job, so he wouldn't agree. anyway, she filed an injunction. and minutes before the trial was to begin, she backed off because at that time robert kennedy was getting ready to run for the senate from new york.

when i wrote "jackie o.," i wrote to william manchester because i wanted to know how much royalties the book had earned given to the kennedy library. now, mrs. kennedy was furious that the sellerrization rights had been sold for something like $700,000, and she said the writer and the publisher should not profit from this book. and the publisher felt they'd put in a lot, and manchester felt that he'd put in a lot, and they felt that they were entitled to that split. he wrote me and said at that time ask that book was -- and that book was written in 1978 -- $1.1 million in royalties had gone to the kennedy library. and i recently wrote to ask what

the royalties were, and i couldn't get an answer. but that's, that's the price you pay for an authorized biography. and yet you couldn't write about that day without her opening all of those people to talk about it. >> host: a few minutes left with our guest, kitty kelley. larry in spokane, washington, hometown of kitty kelley, please, go ahead. >> caller: hey. quick question. do you have any outstanding memories of tom foley? there have just been two memorials, and it would be interesting to have your take on it. >> guest: oh, i do. i attended the memorial here in statuary hall. it was a proud moment for spokane, washington. it was wonderful.

in statuary hall president clinton and president obama, vice president biden, vice president mondale were there. the speaker of the house, john boehner, spoke. mitch mcconnell spoke. jim mcdermott, congressman from seattle, spoke very movingly. it was a wonderful service. i loved tom foley and was proud of everything he did for our district in spokane. i love his wife, heather. they've been very, very close friends of mine. it was a wonderful ceremony. it honored him as a man of integrity, a man from our very small town of spokane who grew up to become an important figure on the international stage.

it was wonderful. really wonderful. >> host: next call for kitty kelley, terry in brooklyn, new york. hello. >> caller: big fan of booktv. this truly has been the greatest "in depth" i've ever seen. you guys could easily do another three hours. ms. kelley, my wife thinks your neck piece is very, very beautiful. [laughter] >> host: what have you enjoyed, terry? have you read any of kitty kelley's work in. >> guest: got all her books. the sinatra book is the greatest book i've ever read, one of the most fascinating. ms. kelley, have you read the george jacobs sinatra book? >> guest: yes. and i interviewed george jacobs at length for my book. yes, i did read his book. it's hysterically funny -- >> caller: i'm sorry. please, talk peter into having him on? [laughter]

>> guest: george jacobs was the valet to sinatra, and he traveled with sinatra. he used to sign for sinatra. he was a very funny man. i'm afraid now that he's, i'm afraid he's kind of slipped into dementia. but he was a wonderful source. and, yes, i did read his book. it was very good. you know, i told you that sometimes you turn down -- you're turned down for interviews, and i had tried to get an interview with this woman, nancy gunderson, who was not only a romance of sinatra's, but then became a friend of his. so she really would be someone to interview, and she wouldn't, she wouldn't give me an interview.

and two years ago i was out in the desert in palm brings with my husband -- palm springs with my husband and gave a speech someplace. this woman came up to me afterwards and she said, quote: do you want that interview now? and i thought, maybe she's -- what's she talking about? and she said, no, i'm serious, do you want the interview? and i looked at this very attractive woman, and i said i don't quite understand. and she said, nancy gunderson? i said, you've got to be kidding me. and we had lunch, and we became friends. and i said i would really like -- i know it's way past the sinatra book, but i'd like to write a piece on you. and how this came about.

and your recollection of sinatra. and why you didn't marry him can can -- and how. and she said, fine. so 0 or 40 years -- 30 or 40 years after you write a book, you never know what'll come your way. >> host: well, as our caller, terry, probably knows we don't do much on celebrities. we're politics and nonfiction, history, public policy, but we did manage to work in a little frank sinatra. the one person we haven't worked in yet is liz taylor. could you very quickly assess your opinion of liz taylor after writing this book? >> guest: it was my least favorite book. i thought it's all husbands, jewelry stores and hospitals. and that's unfair. the politics part of the book is fascinating because she was a liberal democrat x -- and she

married john warner. and she really helped get john warner elected. and i think most people thought that he wasn't the most impressive when he went to the senate, but he became impressive. and worked very, very hard. she was bored to tears, she hated washington. he was paying no attention to her. he worked around the clock. so the political side of the liz taylor book is interesting. but it was my least favorite book. >> host: because of the topic? >> guest: well, it shouldn't have been -- >> host: because of who she is or because of what you found? >> guest: i don't know. peter, and i'll tell you when i wrote this book, i had access to all the legal files at mgm, and they were fabulous files on

every movie, who did what, directors and producers and co-stars. and she really was the last star of the studio system that doesn't exist anymore. and for that reason i chose her because she impacted our social culture so much. but i wasn't, i wasn't drawn in. and after that i knew that i wouldn't write about hollywood again. >> host: did you have a favorite of all the books you've written? >> guest: well, every book that you finish is your favorite. it really is. every book you finish, because you just think i'll never get through this, i'll never --

getting the interviews is tough. doing the research is tough. the writing is excruciating. so my favorite part is writing the acknowledgments. so i'd say i love doing all of the books with the possible exception of that one. >> host: agnes, jacksonville, oregon. hello. >> caller: ing hello. i'm very happy to hear about st. st. katherine, may she be of hope someday. [laughter] anyway, you talked about the kitchen cabinet, and i was in the bay area, i believe it was representative mccloskey who was a republican, and waiting in

his outer office when i was reading this huge picture that was draped up on the wall, and it had all the members of the kitchen cabinet. and i realized as i started laughing out loud nobody in the republican's office had read everything. that name -- [inaudible] contractor connected with the nsa, national security. and -- >> host: okay, agnes, i

apologize. we've seen -- she's got a lot of connections here, kitty kelley. >> guest: i don't know how to put them all together. i thought she was going to say that she saw this photograph, and they were all white men. and i was ready -- but i don't know quite where she was going with this. but the connection to the nsa brings us back to what the man asked -- >> host: perhaps the power in this town and where does it reside? >> guest: well, it certainly resides here. this is the capital of the country, and the power resides with the supreme court and with congress. and be then with the president. >> host: amy, portland, oregon. when ms.-- i'm just going to read it verbatim -- when ms. kelley leaves this world,

what will happen to all of her interview and video recording? >> guest: amy, i do have them all. i do have them all, and i've saved them because you never know -- i did it in the beginning to document all my work for lawyers. i don't know what'll happen to it. >> host: you haven't decided? >> guest: no. and when i inherited the archive of stanley's photographs, people said why don't you donate it, donate it to a library. and i said, no, it'll get lost. it'll never be shown. i mean, library of congress has got vast, vast materials that never get shown, and i was determined -- stanley had trusted me enough with his work, and i felt that i should share

it. and i really felt strongly i should not profit from it. so that's why the "capturing camelot" book will go to the d.c. public libraries. i've already paid royalties to them, and please buy "let freedom ring" so i can pay royalties to the children's defense fund. so those photographs i haven't donated, i've kept, and they're online for people at -- can i give the web site? >> host: absolutely. >> guest: , >> guest: , www.stanleytretick.com. >> host: and if people want to contact you after this interview? >> guest: they'd better call you. [laughter] oh, i'd love to hear there them. >> host: do you have a web site? >> guest: oh, i do, thank you. [laughter] say good night, gracie. it's kittykelleywriter.com.

it's kelley, fancy irish, writer.com. >> host: kitty kelley has been our guest for the last three hours. jackie o was her first book in 1978 followed by her least favorite, elizabeth taylor: the last star, '81. his way: the unauthorized biography of frank sinatra, 1987. nancy reagan: the unauthorized biography, 1992. the royals, '97. oprah: a biography, 2010. and her most recent picture books, "capturing camelot," and "let freedom ring: stanley tretick's images of the march on washington." kittykelleywriter.com is the web site. this is booktv on c-span2. thank you for being with us the last three hours.

>> guest: thank you.se]

>> in to think the center for the committees that vendor built for sponsoring this talk today ian to sponsoring a series of sessions taking place today and tomorrow with the pitfalls of modern medicine id we have some some pamphlets appeared feel free to come and take one. i will introduce dr. victoria sweet and associate professor at the river's did california's santa cisco a prize-winning

historian ph.d. in history. she works at a chronic care hospital though ddt in 67 for the city's destitute and ill. that is her she began writing her recent book "god's hotel" a doctor, a hospital, and a pilgrimage to the heart of medicine" it won the award for nonfiction and what she will tell us about today i cannot agree death of the review of "the new york times" is compulsively we've -- readable chapter to go down like a sip of cool water in it is like a shot of gin. i love this book so much that i signed it last year to a class of 16 undergraduates almost all

plan to go into health care. inspired by dr. sweet criticism of delivery with the efficiency and they were cheered by what they call her slow madison personal and face-to-face to give the patients have time to talk and think that with their argument is the assertion not only humane for those who were foldable but better for determining the right diagnosis or the right treatment it is far more efficient. and i give you teeeighteen. [applause]

>> i have to pay attention. they q very much. she covered all my main points so we could just stop right there. [laughter] that was one of my favorite reviews because said chin part was really nice. i thought it would be a good time to look at the books to condense it to give the main points a general feeling to read a page at the end of this 30 minutes then open for any questions or comments. i have organized first i will talk about myself as a doctor then the hospital where i practiced medicine for 20 years in san

francisco. said last a little about the pilgrimage i took across europe as well that is about the book. so first let me say i never thought of myself as a natural born doctor. i never thought growing up i never watched dr. shows i never volunteered at hospitals i did not want to seize six bodies i told my family i was going to medical school they were shocked. i a discover the riding of carl young the psychiatrist and i loved him in the meeting and death he brought to his life in the why he says -- in the way he said of his life to see will pay

inarticulate patience in the eliminating manuscripts in the afternoon. i decided that is what i wanted to be and why i went to medical school. it turned out i like to more than i thought i would. but to listen to what they say are with they don't say to find out what the diagnosis was. said that it was brilliant

to start my psychiatric residency with the only locked word in they were not the most particular patients they were severely psychotic they found out they were more with the anti-psychotic mood edison after ray got the residency we practiced in the committee for several years that was a wonderful place to practice because community clinics uc everybody every time there was a war we would get a wave of immigrants different cultures different ways to look at the illnesses. i saw the parasites in three

cases of leprosy very fascinating place to practice but it got me to think about different ways people say of disease. i was more impressed by modern medicine and. but also i was more impressed what it left out naturally anything that was not logical the and i looked at homeopathy in chinese medicine and. both of what i found fascinating 30 chinese source sanskrit that i could understand the systems from the inside. but finally i realize even if i did learn chinese i

would still not be able to understand. it was too different from my own culture. at this restaurant -- discouraging moment iran into another book that intrigued me. hildegarde was 12th century also an a stick and a composer and theologian and had written a book about her. that was not the eye of newt toe of frog medicine that i expected but it was real medicine for real patients but based on a completely different model of the body from power mechanical model. i did not understand what

she was trying to get back. i decided at that moment i would go back to school to get a ph.d. of pre-modern medicine and in use that as my source. but i did not want to stop practicing so i looked for a part-time job the only place that would offer everyone at the time was the hospital in san francisco. when i saw it for the first time i was absolutely shocked because it looked like a medieval 12th century monastery cream-colored walls and red tile roof with turrets and a bill to our the the medical director took me around and the place is enormous on 62 acres of land almost 1200

patients taken care of those open ward with a live-in priest cover president nunn nunn, a chapel that looked like a church with stained-glass windows and solid wooden pews and crosses along the walls. we walked around to see the gardens. there were extensive the medical director should be the aviary, the greenhouse and even the barnyard. so patients could pot plants, watch the chickens hatched from aids even see the animals as they were bet bound. then they offered me the

job. i was not sure. laguna honda was like nothing i had ever seen or imagined but the only place that were offered me a part-time job as it would come for two months and a state 20 years. it turned out to be a wonderful place to practice medicine in a regionally it was the san francisco almshouse. it looked like the monastery this was the original one built in the same place late 1860's. how we use to take care of the pork before health insurance we did have a system. it was simple. free county hospital for the cute then there would be almshouse for everybody

else. chronically ill, rehab, and no place to go, lazier crazy that you did not know what to do with would go to almshouse and laguna honda was the one for san francisco. it is called "god's hotel" and french. that is what they are called as god's house is. so what happened with almshouse or laguna honda it takes care of the bottom 1% so what i found they had nothing in common but from the standard deviations the tallest in the shortest the tallest in the fattest the

oldest in the august of the the patient they ever had with almost every disease in the world i would seek to with three cases of it was a fascinating place to practice it took me awhile to realize how much was learning about real medicine and. i ask myself if i had to summarize in one sentence it would be medicine is personal. not personalized but never that means. so when it is personal it works. what i mean is the patient is happy come with a doctor

is happy the right treatment and all for the least amount of money. this jelled the day i met my a good friend dr. kurtis who was coming back from outside the hospital and i asked him where he was going. he said he was going back to see a patient who had been added laguna honda for months ready for discharge but every time dr. kurtis saw this patient on rounds he would sit around on his wheelchair. i asked him why is he still there because he can walk? no issues. i need special shoes they are waiting for medicaid to approve it. how long have they been waiting? >> three months so

dr. kurtis thought about that then said what size shoe do you wear? size nine. dr. curtis the about the charts he had to do and the forms he had to right then got in his car went to wal-mart bought a size nine ready to $60.99 now coming back to put them on the patient to right the order of discharge. as i watched him i realized he reminded me of what i always loved but had never understood. the secret of the care of the patient is caring for that patient. loving them or at least liking them. i thought there must be more to it i found in a talk to

the medical class of harvard in 1927. it turns out what dr. peabody really meant was not that the secret was carrying about the patient but for the patient which he said meant doing the of little personal thing this. was a that the most efficient way for doctors to take care of patients but that is what created the personal relationship between doctor and patient that secret is a healing. said is very ironic because right around this time laguna honda was discovered

by health care efficiency experts favor coming to the hospital to find any efficiencies. i am sure if they knew about the issues they would have thought it very inefficient and very costly of the time of a highly trained physician. but whether you think about it it was very efficient fame for him to have done. he got the right diagnosis, the right treatment, and all for the least amount of money. so i started to call this the efficiency of the deficiency. -- inefficiencies' so i was pursuing my study so i took a lot of class is.

i've learned latin a and medieval latin and the medieval german that i realized she actually wrote this is on a printed text and wanted to look at the real text so i took a lot of class says it was a lot of fun actually and experimented with her potions i made the herb medicinal piers it even made her anti-a depressant cookies then i began to understand what was differentgan to understand what was different with her medicine. we look at the next as if the body was a machine. this is wonderful we seek

the of rain as a computer said kid these are filters and the doctor is a mechanic. hildegarde's model was more the body is a plea at and the doctor was the gardener. what a difference. someone has to fix a broken machine but a plant can heal itself. she called that power the power that means agreed a and she believed higgins have their own greening power natural healing power and the role of the doctor is to step back in remove

whatever was in the way said to fortify with basic good food, sleep, rest, stuff like that. i grasped the idea to radically but not intel my patient that i really understood. terry was homeless living on the streets with her boyfriend mike a smoke and drink and it took drugs. one day she woke up and was paralyzed from the neck down. so like to occur over she was admitted and worked up transfers myelitis that is a very rare viral disease that attacks the spinal cord

causing paralysis new treatment usually gets better over time. so the center over and she was my patient and she did get better. over the first few weeks but then the first of the month cater amount and mike showed up. and he said he would take her out he did not say this but the first of the month is with the homeless get the welfare cash from city hall. said he was showing up to take her out for a few hours of course, he to occur and they disappeared for about one year. it turned out later i found out over the course of that year living on the streets she had been in the emergency room 28 times and developed a huge bedsore from sitting in her wheelchair all day and had

grafted but every time the first of the month rolls around mike took her out and even took a two by four to her breaking her skull and they can drop to an abandoned her on the streets of this city finally the bedsore was too big to treat so the surgeons center back to laguna honda and she was my patient again. when i saw her for the second time i was shocked. she looked so much older, a tired and depleted and the bedsore i was shocked. it was the biggest open wound i had ever seen with anybody from the middle of her back all the way down to her tailbone and spee and her in tire back and was so deep i could see bones i could see her spine at the bottom.

in the middle was a decade tissue from the failed skin graft. it was too big to graft it would take years i thought for that to heal on its own and in the meantime what would stop her from having an overwhelming infection to kill her. i had nothing left in my black bag because she would get an infection and build up immunity anyway. i was staring at a plant a patient had plotted in the greenhouse and had given me and had grown all over the ball of my office. i thought she is going to die of this medieval to seize.

i thought how would hildegarde have looked at this? i thought about greening power coursing through her body was a natural power. i thought maybe hildegarde would not have done anything at all but just have removed what is in the way of her own greening power. so what is in the way? all the dead tissue had to be removed and the medications she did not absolutely need at would take away. anything that caught her attention uncomfortable mattress or bet clothes i would remove. fear. uncertainty, hope. then i thought hildegarde would fortify her greening power with deep sleep

sleep, rest, food, that is what i did and it was amazing to see how fast her prescription begin to work. then the first of the month rolled around and mike showed up he was still pretty cute wearing his levis and the nurses and i stood there isn't made him wait in the waiting room and we told terry and watched her wheel herself to go see him. they were in there a long time. finally the door opens and mike came out a loan and he left. terry had thrown him out and told him never to come back. then she stopped smoking the appetite back into started to eat.