but then i think that the japanese -- most leaders could not have seen this plan of attack had it not been for it best. so i think it was an outlandish thing to do and i think that roosevelt was perhaps expecting some minor attacks, even as late as december 1 or where ever. because he saw the troops come and feeding of this attack. which really was a dramatic turn of events. and so i think that the japanese themselves were surprised by it. so i think there is an under estimation of what yamamoto could do. you know, and all sides, almost. and that's my feeling about it.

to military leaders, when you look at the plan, he said no way, we are not going to do it, it's too risky, we cannot win it anyway. and so it risks a lot these battles. >> as come it is hard to estimate this and for example, there is a wonderful film made in japan in 1942 they came out in december and it was commissioned by the imperial japanese navy and they re-created the attack so well and it was one of the first films but is still sometimes used in documentaries about pearl harbor because there is very little documentary footage on it. and one of the scenes shows the

pilots on the aircraft carriers on their way to pearl harbor and they listen and to the american radio in hawaii and a hearing just the cynic. and someone is conducting a dance. and they all giggle and say this is the americans and all they can do is dance and listen to this absurd sort of music. and once they get it taste of the real spirit, they will cave in. and it's a common misperception held not just by the japanese but others as well. and then there were misconceptions on both sides. who really believe that americans couldn't shoot straight because their noses were too big. [laughter] so they can look past their noses. and the same thing in america. and this includes how they

couldn't shoot straight. and so on. and the stupidity of people is usually boundless. >> i'm sure that japan was not the topic of this, but you are probably talking a lot about it. and i want to thank you both for being with us. thank you. until 18, 20 years. spent time with correspondents for "the guardian" and the times newspaper. and now we make documentary films and not part of the world and we've been passing by two

days before the attacks happened in 2008 when the whole city was basically held hostage. unlike 9/11, where lots of great books were promulgated, books by steve: other writers. i didn't really see the book that summed up the terror. kathy and i were determined to do justice to what happened in 2008 and put together what we hope was a tribute to the heroes of mumbai and an explanation for what that kind of terror really means. >> so did you return while i was going on? or did you come back several weeks later? how did you cover this? >> were the last people to the story. so we came back a long time after. we went and spoke to the

families and also to security agencies and the organization that planned the attacks. so any idea, not the story get more information. the reason for her, what they were trying to achieve and get the human stories. >> what were some of the key findings? >> the key finance were like many in the u.k. there are lots of missed opportunities to intervene before the attacks happened. there were several occasions -- [inaudible] they were coming over with the incentive of holding other key locations in mumbai. they cherry to improve security

measures for various reasons. the intelligence agencies in india said it will never happen. it too crazy an idea. watching themselves for mcgehee on the streets of mumbai and holding the city rants on. it's too big and crazy. it's not going to happen. >> did you come to any conclusions about preventative measures or anything that could help determine ahead of time -- >> the one thing you can be certain is the reason were particularly interested in. it's still a powder keg with a hot border between india and pakistan. a post to afghanistan at the u.s. forces withdrawing, there's a power vacuum there. one thing about this book, it's

also an extraordinary human story. you know, for us having worked in the region for 18, 20 years, were interested in telling real stories from the inside. these people, 90% are pakistani and indian contributors. we've try my reflect what they did and they overcame extreme danger, which employees for grand hotels and luxury establishment. if it hadn't been for them, it would've been an absolute massacre. that was one of the great lessons for homeless people overcame. >> was there anything that played a part in anything? >> it kind of is a base for everything. we began at the height of the insurgency. the endless dispute over the contested state provides very

often the makeups. for example, the army as a pure work pier were conceived of and funded by the pakistani intelligence service in the 1990s specifically to make their idea to send over unarmed energy hadith to trigger a war in kashmir. they then subsequently after 9/11, an element within the group wanted to be more like an outsider out there attacking americans are pro-western jewish, not simply kashmiris. >> kashmiris, everyone in south asia and no one really cares. the organization that planned this operation. al qaeda was getting the headwinds. that is the big reason.

>> nearly everything. when you come back to it, and the continuing framing was completely with the sound people as they became familiar with them. there are more people, three times the number have disappeared and never disappeared. talking upwards of 8000 to 10,000 people who vanished in the custody of the security services and field is recently dug up in which 2500 courses, none of which debts could be ascribed to any one agency. it kind of feel that lack of familiarity is a huge issue. as part of what lies behind attacks like these. within the indian establishment in the perspective within

kashmir. >> what originally sparked her interest in this area of the world? [inaudible] >> just love it out there. so much happening in both countries. pakistan and india. we just want to continue working there. >> asia is particularly re-creating itself every day although it has thousands of years of history that kobe for stories like partitions. it's a tremendous feeling of energy there in terms of the new rate being. there sends stunning filmmakers, cartoonists and you really get that feeling of drive. there is no complacency. sometimes i go back to london mcafee and will be working for a

while and the complacency is just staggering. they're making opportunities. that's a tremendous privilege to be able to travel freely and make films in that culture and pakistan. it's been 20 years of repeated third of present giving. i'm glad we've had the opportunities to do it. >> have you lined up your next project yet? >> yes. we cannot tell you. >> it's a secret. [inaudible conversations] >> will return to the same area with similar people. as kathy said, were very influenced by the journalist at a time when poland had no money at all and cnn arrived by helicopter.

we want to come by and then we're going to stay until the end. that's always been our deal with the story. i think it's worth always doing the last interview in going the last kilometer.

>> were talking to karen hooper at the national press club. tell us a little bit about chasing getting in.

>> well, i worked on this book for a year and a half in the tied to the 50th anniversary of the supreme court institution, gideon versus wainwright. my initial idea was to go out and take the temperature across the country to see how this issue of the rights to counsel has played out in the last 50 years since the landmark decision. so i found a huge crisis in the court of public defenders are mostly over were. some of the public defenders were carrying as many cases a 700 at a time. so what i've tried to do in the book is to read a book about this crisis in the court. it is a book written for general readers, not lawyers because one of the driving questions in my book was how can everybody that's involved in the court

system, judges, prosecutors, public defenders all recognized the system is broken, that there is this huge crisis and not do anything? so i went in with a question. the answer i walked out with his most people outside of the judicial system.no about these problems. so i wrote "chasing gideon" for those people who are inches within justice and fairness but don't know the intricacies of our united states. i try to tell the story narratively so that is interesting to all and so you see what it laic. i talked about an 18-year-old in a car accident and charged with the hit to their manslaughter. i talk about a 12-year-old who's

accused because he played with a neighbor boy. i talk about a death penalty case. i tried to tell the story with respect to the clients and what it's like for them gophers can be very overwhelming when you look at it. you walk into any store in the country and you'll see rows and rows and rows of people sitting on benches were standing in the hallways were meeting their lawyers on the first time, don't know their names. but they fill out a story in five minutes. they asked this person to go into court and defend them. this is juggling though many cases who can't really dedicate the time they need.

they focus our nation attention on that supreme court decision. >> what is the core reason for the system being broken? is it simply a matter of not enough money? bars that matter of qualified attorneys, some kind of combination? >> i think it's a combination of things. there's several systemic problems. there's a poster in the court were sometimes among public defenders there is a bravado about how much work can you do without complaining so the cultures of the cores can feel that, also among judges who have an attitude that the cases

along, clear the docket, keep things going. keep the colander clear. so there is that culture. then there is big financial problems and financial incentives. there's often not enough public defenders said the caseloads get too high. that's another huge problem. there is also a problem with the lay public defenders are paid in many states. for example, i'm in washington state, one of the cases i wrote about a day or, they have these things called contract to turn means that they are paid a flat fee contract for every client that gives them their way in a particular county. all of their fees for experts or investigators are any of that has to come out of their own flat fee contract. so there is a disincentive sometimes to do good work.

so there's a lot of different pressure points in the system right now. but i think the biggest problem is the general public doesn't realize that and it's a hard sell to the public because all the people of her hear from politicians are locked them up and throw the key. they really are fearful of getting elected by talking about any of these issues are showing the least bit of fairness their empathy for these people who go through the system. so i think there has to be a cultural shift in the kind of conversation that we have publicly on these issues. ..

>> thank you for your time. >> thank you for asking me. >> up next on booktv, this to win john ferling examines the jm political rivalry between thoman jefferson and alexander hamilton. this program is just over one hour.