>> i first met this friend of mine in 1995. i had come to new york and i was looking around for stories to do and decided to do one on indian journalist who were rising in the mainstream business. when i was interviewing the

people who reached the top positions someone mentioned anita. the person describes her as the bright kid who was going places. she was reported on the security industry. she did go places because i met her again just a couple years ago when a group formed and anita was appointed the london chief of burro. let's start off, you have been wanting to write about the whole south asian area and what was so compelling about this case? >> i was fascinated by the fact

that raj rajaratnam, this sri lankan street fighter had inspired the best. you would rajat gupta who went to the finest schools in india and i wanted to know what raj had that casted a spell over india's finest. >> don't you think it wasn't the brightest time to be telling the story? >> i think through the story you were able to tell the tale thof rise of the community because of

the individuals involved in the case came off the immigration laws that were relaxed and did well in a short period of time. so you had the whole trajectory of the community. its highs and lows. >> i love the title. how did you hone in on that particular title? >> if i can start by saying we had many titles before this one. sun of the morning was the first and my favorite. it captured this idea of the indian-american elite that were caught up as being the best and brightest of india.

not everybody knew the hymn from boarding school so that was cast aside. and then we played with two kings because raj was the king of health in a way. and raj was a different king. a king of thought and a strategist with a certain ability about him. i don't want to give away trade secrets, but another book was out there with the title two kings so it had to be cast aside. and finally we wanted to focus a bit on you know what was the

book about. i think we came to the idea of the the billionaire's apprentice: the rise of the indian-american elite and the fall of the galleon hedge fund" because at some point raj wanted to have what raj rajaratnam had and that was the billions. >> i thought maybe you could read a bit from your book and that sets the stage for the discussion. >> okay. i passage i am going to read from is from the beginning of the book. it is rajat gupta at the start of his life. it tells you about him and his father who was a prominent freedom fighter to spent many years in jail. a cousin of rajat told me jail

was like a house to him. i am going to start with that. every since he was born, rajat gupta was likened to his father. he had the same jaw line and it gave both men a sense they had privilege that went beyond health and skin color. both rajat gupta and his father were clear skin. a clear advantage that afforded them a natural superiority. they had friend and loyal followers, but beneath the surfaces, the similarities ended. rajat gupta came of age in an occupied country. as a descendent of one of

indian's oldest blood line he was one of the chosen one and was chose to perform like a foe english one. he received a proper british education, rajat gupta respected servitude. on the morning of 1964, november 5th, his son dressed himself and draped his best white outfit over his body. the youngest born after the family moved to new dehli he was used to helping out. this parents were a two career

couple. his mother taught at the local school. and he took up journal ism. he was dispatched to talk about the dead leo events. the county's first prime minister called him by his first name. gupta was trusted by ministers and they would seek his counsel on how to deal with press. he became an insider in modern india.

s his father laid in the coffin and the body was washed in purified water and dressed into lose footing shirt and a white doty. when we arrived at the hospital the previous day, he was told his father was died. but he saw a plastic bag bubbling and he thought the doctors made the mistake. but at 56, rajat gupta was dead of kidney failure. leading up to his death, his son spent a lot of time with him. his father was introduced to tb

in prison and he had scars from brutal interrogation. he later recalled this father never spoke ill of anybody and i would have thought he would a lot of resentment. neighbors, friends and admirers descended upon the house. door to door laundry men watched as the coffin was placed in the hearse. they cleared a path for the procession. at 9 a.m., the hearse departed.

as it approached to the top of the street, there was an shrine for the hindu man. on the other side of town, people ran to catch a final glimpse of him. on his last guest, he found the right destination. clenching a fist full of flowers, he made his way beyond the row of bodies stacked into the line to be cremated. after pushing his way through, the former prison guard made it to the coffin. histi histine -- his teenage son was

just finishing the paperwork. then he helped roll the flames into the flames. pray not a grain of hatred remains mingled in your asheash. i tried to return for my own sin. they might have heard the tender voice of rajat gupta beseeching a higher power. who will show me the way and the world. >> you know, anita, this is incredible amount of detail. how difficult was it researching and reporting the book? what sort of reactions were you

getting? the backdrop was this whole scandal. and you have been a very dogged reporter but writing a book of this scale and depth, what was the experience like? >> it was very difficult because so many members of the indian-american community who helped me on many many stories before were quite reluctant to speak about this story because it cast a poor light on the community. i think the diaspora didn't want to draw attention to it. i had to tap all of the sources and convince them that the

shadow on the community reflected the vibrancy in the united states today. the fact we have prosecutors and people who meet out justice as part of the, you know, the american society is as a sign of strength. when my parents came, indians were confined to being doctors, and engineers and college professors. we have movie makers, writers and prosecutors today. >> it is a much more diverse field. being an indian yourself was that a help or a henderence?

>> it helped because i know the difference between a sri lankan and an indian. or if you have read the book, midway through the book, one of the men is having marital parties and goes to a friend's house to pray because the friend is a hindu unlike the wife who is a muslim. so it helped understand the cultural roles in the story. it was a challenge, too, because one of the central protagonist

of the book was rajat gupta. and here is me writing a book that is going to shine a spotlight on his missteps. and how do you do that in a way that doesn't open you up to accusations of, you know, just taking down a hero. i was aware of that as i wrote the book. >> in large part of the book, your portrait of gupta is an upright figured and principled. what do you think since you have got into this in such detail -- what was it tipping point? that is the question everyone wants to know: why? >> there were a number of

factors, i think. but you have to remember that rajat gupta built up his career after being in scandinavia, chicago and late in life, in the late '90s, he comes to new york and he is thrust into this new bright light big city phenomenon. he is lingering with people and i think in some ways he looked at his 30-year career as a mckinsey salary man and said what do i have to show for it? it is interesting because all of the descent happens after stepping down from the realm of mckinsey. he is closer to roger starting

in 2005. in 2004, he gives a talk at columbia and i watched the tape of the talk and you have this sense of a man casting about trying to figure what he was going to do and how he was going to achieve a new high. he was really struggling. >> that success wasn't enough at mckinsey. he was far more ambitious. i read the book and was up nights reading it it was so good. it is like a novel. it is like a great shakespearean tragedy. i got the sense there is an underlying sympathy you have for

rajat gupta. that might not have been the case in your interpretation but underlying the huge wave of sympathy for him; is that correct? >> that is why i wanted to read you the passage i did. i picture of rajat we saw was a stoic man. this dignified statesman he was. when i went to calcutta, and i went there before he was indicted and they spoke to me openly and i said was rajat affected by his father's death because he talked about it. his first roommate at mckinsey told me he didn't know rajat was

appear orphan. and his cousin said of course he was. he was wondering around in a comatose state. he came to calcutta after finding out his father was hill ill and the moment he learned he died he was in a daze. >> when you met -- you met almost 200 people researching this book. >> some were on the phone. >> i thought you were super human so i am glad to know that. you talked to 200 people and hear all of the different voices and how do you sift through that? how do you arrive at a true and fair picture that reflects

reality? you must have gotten a lot of static as well. >> there were certainly a core of people at mckinsey who didn't like rajat and thought he had taken the firm in the wrong direction and argued that you could have predicted what happened. i felt the crime received such press and rajat suffered so much because of the crime. his lawyer at the end of the trial said this is a greek tragedy of epic proportion. >> despite him being so high

profile and written about extensively and i remember meeting him on several occasions and interviewing him and visiting him at his home. and i thought this is it. this is what success means. he had the golden life. but there was always that sort of barrier. he kept a part of him very private. i think you were able to penetrate that through this book. did you find that difficult? i mean was it what people, you know, from his past? you met, i know his secretary and you used every source, was that difficult for you? i think going to calcutta was very helpful and and helped to

understand rajat. his cousins spoke freely. and they knew the young rajat. and i remember a story on a family trip he got on the roof of the car and he would not climb down. and they had to climb with sweets before he would come down. and you got this sense of a boy who was quite alive. and suddenly at 16 he loses his parents and his whole persona changes. and that struck me. >> moving fast forward, do you

think the whole economic meltdown of 2008 sort of made caused this whole case to escalate the way it did? do you think that was justified? >> a lot of south asians asked if they thought the were being held culprit to the case. prosecutors are not too different from the rest of us in the way they do their jobs. if there is an easy case to do. and this was an easy case once you had the wiretaps of them

receiving inside information from various players. if you have an easy case bring you will bring an easy case. and trying to prosecute the creators of the mortgage fraud debacle is far harder. you can probably bring cases against brokers who sold these shotty mortgages but how do you tie them to the head of the bank? too many layers to penetrate. this was just an easy case to bring. >> do you think the sentence was too harsh for both of them? >> you know -- i don't know want to comment on the sentence because i don't feel it is my role to. but you know, again, i think

that a lot of people have remarked to me don't you think rajat gupta got a severe sentence, and i actually think rajat gupta was lucky getting the sense he did. if he was before another judge, i think he would have gotten many more years. in a way the crime he committed was far more serious than the one that raj rajaratnam committed. he was a board member. he had a fiduciary responsibility to keep the secrets in the board room. >> back home, people in power have a sense of entitlement and almost expect immunity. and this thing wouldn't happen.

do you think that sense of entitlement is something they bring here? this kind of blatant behavior that comes across in your book, what made them believe they could get away with this? is that to do with that sort of indian thinking of power giving you immunity? >> i am not sure it has to do with that. one of rajat's best friend, bill clinton, also thought he was untouchable. so i think it is just one of the attendant atributtes of power. you have a sense of being

invisible. and rajat was at that point in life where he thought he wasn't going to be affected by this. when rajat first found out he had a problem, the reaction at first wasn't to be concerned. >> i was wondering if you could read and give us the flavor of that time. when he was at the peak of his career. >> okay. this is when rajat gupta is at the height of his power and just before he finds out he may have a problem. it is his first inkling. but i will not get to that.

it was tuesday, november 24, 2009 and rajat gupta was headed to the whitehouse for the first state dinner hosted by president obama and his wife mitchell. three years had passed since rajat gupta had stepped down from mckinsey. but he was busy and sat on boards like goldman sachs, american airlines and others to name a few. he was in the throes of building his own company from scratch. jetting around the world and living from a suit case he wanted to be a game changer. dressed in a black suit he made his way to the white tent on the south lawn from the east room that served as the staging area.

at every turn he ran into the friends. he chatted with the new age physician who was wearing his eye glasses. he met with a top lawyer and bobby jindel who was the republican governor of louisiana. his parents migrated six months before born. jindel was typical quest that evening. they were there to honor the indian prime minister, but it serves for how far and how fast the immigrant group had risen. if gupta wanted to make small talk with the fortune 500 ceo he

could approach a few of the different ones. a television presenter was there as well and he could chat with either one. hollywood was represented at the event. as one of the premier indian achievers in the united states he was known by many. gupta advised others to follow their dreams when parents pushed them toward doctors. as you looked around the room that night, it was breath taking

to see the diversity. there were ceo's, doctors, hotel owners and office holders. there were people that grew up poor in india but now they were the ceo's. you could feel how alive the american dream was in that room. there was no question rajat gupta would be invited. he was friend with almost all of the indian business men. they views him as one of the most treasured exports. he never lost his affection for the homeland either. he was described as the david

rockefeller of india. rajat gupta's most important relationship, one that helped secure an invitation that evening was his friendship with dr. sang who was the guest there. despite mckinsey's prominence in india, he helped them thrive on the restructureing move and played a critical role in

rebuilding areas. they opened in the suburbs of new delhi. he went global with the idea after it turned out to be a hit. he preached to companies that were eager to cut cost and pushed them to move work and legal transition and analysis to india. clients were thrilled. and in india he was a corporate rock star. labor leader andy stern, the president hof the company's second largest union was his

tab table mate. over the dinner, stern took the opportunity to nudge the key party some consider responsible for inthfading -- for the reading of the prospects. stern wanted profits more distributed to the rank and file. overhearing the conversation other joined in. if anyone told gupta he would have worked at mckinsey and been

invited to the whitehouse they might have had an easier time convincing him he would walk on the moon. >> you report in the particular time when the first goldman sachs legal counsel talked to him and his reaction there, i think was, he is rushing through the airport, you know, it is just doesn't sink in. it is not the reaction of somebody who is doing something wrong. is it the reaction of someone who is innocent. how do you pair that with the final conviction? >> i don't think to this day he really believes he did something

wrong. may take the feds investigating you for raj rajaratnam. and i chalk it up to arrogance and a belief that if this is a problem it will go away. i am too powerful to be touched. a bit like bill clinton. entertaining someone in the oval office and thinking no one will hear of it. >> do you think you could read a couple from there? it sets the stage for the book if you can locate that passage.

i think that is important for the audience to understand. >> while i am finding the passage in the book -- >> isn't it earlier in the book? >> well gupta's reaction to this is later. i mean he is rushing through and you want the conversation and that is later. but if you would like to ask me something while i am looking for it. >> you talked about casting a bad light on the community in

this whole case does it call into the question the whole, you know, indian success stories so to speak in the united states? is it going to make it that much harder for the next generation to reach the heights that rajat did? >> indians had have a magical journey in the united states. they came in great numbers starting in the '70s after johnson's reforms. in one generation they have, you know, gone on to become top lawyers in the country. today we are at a point where we have leaders that are likely to

be federal appeals court judges in washington, d.c. and as you can tell from the opening passage we had movie makers and politicians. and i do think the scandal involving rajat gupta and some of the other indians will cast a shadow on the community for a while. i remember when i started writing the book i was at a gala and a prominent indian-american who heads a bank came up to me and said anita, why this book? why this book? and you could tell his own sense of security felt threatened by this episode even though we had nothing to do with it. >> well you know, i was just

thinking it was ironic you mention afterward in the book that kumar had a money trail and a link between raj rajaratnam where that was want the case with rajat gupta. you came to the conclusion because they were business partners and indirectly he is benefiting. but in kumar's case there was clearly a tale. he got away, though. so it seems unfair. as you write now, he is probably getting a second career back home. do you think that rajat could rehabilitate himself back home easily?

>> i think it is likely he will. i was talking to an american who came back from india. and he said the press into the united states is negative but in india he is somewhat of a hero and has been mistreated by an unjust legal system. so i think he is going to rehabilitate himself easily in india. >> would you like to complete the reading? >> sure. this is actually 17 days after the first scene at the whitehouse that i read from. and gupta is about -- he is at philadelphia international airport and about to board a plane. he gets a call from greg palm,

the general counselor for goldman sachs. he started off the call on december 11th, with two tip offs the conversation was going to be uncomfortable. he said he had a colleague listening on the line. since the topic was sensitive, it was important there was an extra set of ears and hands to record what was said and monitor's gupta's reaction. gupta didn't register yet the call was going to be different. we are representing the corporation and not you. palm wanted to make sure this he knew this wasn't a prive conversation. the contents of his conversation

could be handed over to law enfore enforcement officers. what can you tell me about raj rajaratnam? gupta was taken back. he said what are you talking about? they said they were told he might have provided him with information about the firm. gupta was calm and denied he ever provided raj rajaratnam with information about goldman sachs. then he went on to explain why it was absurd. he said they were businessman at

one time but they had a falling out. gupta poured $10 million into an entity and gupta's investment went to 0. he hired accountants and was planning to sue him but he was arrested. why would i help out someone with whom i had a dispute he ad rhetorically. >> just a couple more questions, panel questions before we open it up to the floor. you have kept one very interesting juicy part of the story at the very end, and i don't want to disclose that because really that is something that anita has uncovered and it isn't common knowledge, but i can disclose the title of

chapter which is family secrets. it is pretty explosive secret which gives a different complexion to gupta's background. i will not disclose the secret because we want to you to buy the become. >> or rather enjoy the book >> or read the book, sorry. but how did you chance upon this? >> this is common knowledge in calcutta. no one really wrote about it out of deference to gupta's father who was a journalist.

of course, i was not going to write about it based on the chatter i had at my disposal in london, which were the archives of the british library. i had a sense of when the incident happened. i started looking through old newspapers and i found out that this was -- this incident was in calcutta in the 1930s and newspapers ran daily store as about the incident. it caused great shame and dishonor to gupta's family because so many of them were steeped in education and a

academics. by going to calcutta, i interviewed a number of people who knew gupta's father. they were very old. i learned of the circumstances of what really happened. and i hope -- i felt it was important to include the story because i think it was this burden the family carried for many years. everybody was aware of it. people talked about it and hushed them up if they had he did something he should have never done speaking about gupta's father. i think it casted a fall over roger and his siblings. yet the was something honorable in the dishonor.

>> finally, anita, what is the key take away from this whole saga? some would say that this really paints indians in a bad light. but how do you view it? what would you like the readers to understand from the book? >> i think it shows that we as a community have arrived in america. we have finally large enough in numbers. we are economically significant. and as a result, we have our own crime that will be prosecuted and there will be episodes like

this. but it is a celebration of the community's strength rather than we weakness. >> i think we can open it up to the floor. do we have a mike? please come forward. just briefly introduce yourself >> i am a physician from new york. both of you are from wall street. so insiders. >> i am from the large street. >> does the inside trading happen much more often and fewer people get caught or is this a rare phenomenon? >> i think there are ways and i think insider trading is ramped. it probably happens less than in

2008-2009 but i think it is common feature of the landscape. it is inevitable because you have information that is private and some is pure rumor. so yes, i think it is an endemic problem on wall street. >> you are right up front on the first row. thank you. >> thank you very much. the timing of your story was crystal. i have a question, will you be able to distribute the book into your country? >> yes, i think so. i think there are plans to do that at some point. we are the world's greatest

democracy. you can do a lot of things in india you cannot in many others. >> the business group might buy up all of them. i think right there. >> you said people are trying to pick the low hanging fruit when he went after rajat. there is not one shred of evidence presented to hold him responsible. in spite of all of the hours of wiretapping there is no evidence. do you find that funny? >> south asians focus on

wiretapping being evidence. this was the first case where wiretapping has been used in insider trading. the circumstantial evidence was compelling >> by that you mean the timing? >> just after the board meeting. and on the day of the goldman sachs and the warren buffett investment -- >> [ [inaudible conversation] >> that is not right. there was a case in 2008, the u.s. attorney office couldn't at trial show that money had gone

to the banker. there was no benefit. they were trying to allege there was a man in pakistan who may have gotten money and was kicking it back to the credit swiss banker but no display. benefit is a term that doesn't have to be money in suit cases handed over. it can be benefit as, you know, general business ties that will lead to greater business. >> there is a little description about the judge saying there were no suit cases of cash.

this wasn't as an exciting trial as the previous ones. can we just have -- >> was rajat's father a financial failure and because of that he was determined to be the opposite and all of the grief came from that? >> rajat came from very humble root. and as his father came out of jail, i discovered a document in the british library, he had something like 10,000 whoopies in debt and that was a lot of money at the time. and in the talk rajat gave at

columbia he had his father was if anyone asked for the shirt off his back he would give it to him. he said he were lucky because if it had not been for our mother who put aside money we would have been starving and on the street when our parents died. so i do think he grew up at a young age learning the importance of the security that came from wealth. >> right. >> hello. i wanted to ask you you had said that you believed that this scandal and problems are going to reflect badly upon the south asian community. i happen the economist magazine disagreed and said that analysis

was quote unquote non-sense. i want to know why you think the action of two will reflect on a billion worldwide. and if you can answer the question why was it in your journal investigation why were these two wiretapped if that wasn't standard process? why were these two wiretapped? and lastly, as a sri lankan, are you including all of the south asians or just people from india. >> let me answer two. they were not the only two that were wiretapped.

a number of others were. in the summer of 2009, they tried to get a former associate of stevie cohen to record him and imcrhe didn't take the bait. to the question three, my book, while raj was the person who you know was a catalyst if you will will. ...

i read a number of the comments and i find comments to stories more fascinating than even the stories actually. and it was stunning to me but there were a number of people who said essentially what do you expect? these are south asians or you now, so i do think it will have an effect on the community. i am not saying by the same token i did mention that sri

lankans are going to be confirmed for the federal appeals court in d.c.. it's not devastating but it will in the short-term short term i think particularly on wall street. [inaudible] >> yeah yet been confirmed by the senate. >> do you think in another context back home so to speak woods raj, would they be friends? you know they just seemed like two different people. >> i personally don't think they would have. look, you know they weren't friends outside of business. they didn't socialize together.

he didn't go to raj's 50th birthday party in kenya. this was a mutual interest for a particular period of time. >> right back there. >> you were there ipers them. >> yes, for raj. >> you are therefore rajat gupta you wrote a piece on it. >> yeah i had someone there. >> i was there let me just ask you quickly. there are two points the wiretap of september 24 and october 24 seems to be -- the u.s.

attorney's office. >> there is no september 24 wiretap. there's only an october 24. that is not a wiretap. that is just a phone -- phonecall. >> to me the time appears difficult for rashad so what is your take on it in terms of what you heard from the public? >> obviously it's a panel of three judges. i think one of the judges is seen to be generally prodefense, just my reporting of the judge. the other judge -- yes, that's right. the other judge is pro-prosecution and i think --

that's right and john newman, yes but john newman i think rashad's lawyers look to john newman as being kind of thing wild card because he is very intellectually rigorous and i think they came away disappointed by the questions he asked. right there. the second row. >> hi. i worked in the 2000, 2003 managing partner there and thinking of somebody who was knowing a lot of college -- colleagues there the sense of betrayal is so acute that it's mind-boggling. a firm like mckenzie the absolute key is -- to the extent

that eight years after he left mckenzie i still won't talk about it. that's the first in the second is the impact on south asians. a lot of consultants, mckenzie consultants who were indian origin just the chatter that goes across the dash have felt that they will be set up for special scrutiny and they feel like they are part of the indian mafia and there is a disparaging shadow and i'm not saying it could be widespread or long-lasting but there certainly is a bit of fat. >> is that i question? okay. right here in the second row. >> hi. my question is did you speak to

her interview rajat for this book? >> i don't want to comment on sources. >> okay and i'm also kind of perplexed if you were talking to family members or cousins, did they know the subject material of the obviously it's not putting them in a good light. >> they did. >> did they give you all this information? >> i mean a lot of book is about various people have said it's a very sympathetic for trail of him. that is what they achieve it it too. >> well must thing about this wiretap. this conversation that he had after ward meeting, is that on tape or not? >> no, there is no wiretap and when i was answering the previous gentleman's question what i was trying to say is that this is the first case where

wiretaps have been used and there have been insider trading cases in the 80s and the 90s post-millennium against caucasians and others and all of them have been brought using circumstantial evidence. the swiss banker that i mentioned when there was no benefit shown there was justice allegation that this man was tipping somebody in pakistan who is based in. , this man was sentenced to eight years in prison on circumstantial evidence. >> wasn't there one phonecall? you know that conversation? >> its july 29. >> where he talks, raj is complaining and said a million bucks for what end he says you

should be more mindful. >> that was a wiretap conversation but that was not a charge, that was not part of the charges because the information being passed did not rise to material. >> the one for which he is charged on september 23, that wasn't on the tape are the wiretap because he came up during the hearing and rajat. [inaudible] so they don't have it on the tape. >> right. >> here in the second row, please. >> should the title of this book

have been the rise of rajat gupta rather than the american elite? i have not read the book yet but i looked at the table of contents in red the expert -- excerpt from --. in entitling books that way perhaps you are going to cause a self-fulfilling prophecy casting a shadow. >> no, i think i was trying to do was i think rashad gupta was an important member of the community and i think his journey was similar to the journey of many in the community the explosive rise in such a short period of time. sometimes you use one character to show what a community has

done and i think certainly it was emblematiemblemati c of the communities. [inaudible] >> i actually think the book spends a lot of time on his rise. we can count pages later. >> the title of the book is "the billionaire's apprentice" so it's clearly about one person in that sense but at least in the broader con -- context that's how i understood it. right there. that corner. >> hi, and good evening. i am part of that waive of diaspora you spoke about that came in the 1960s. although i have not read your book, i find that it takes a tremendous amount of courage and strength for us as a diaspora to

be reflective and look back at ourselves and despite all of our strengths and all of the success we have i think it's very important for our growth to also recognize some of the things that we have not done with good ethics and have not conducted ourselves in the way in which we should. so thank you for that. my question related to that is what insight or perspective would you offer to the next generation of diaspora that is up-and-coming now that is applying to college and looking at their career path? what perspective could you offer? >> i actually think they have an advantage that certainly my parents generation is the same generation as rajat's generation didn't have and they grew up in the united states and they are

assimilated and they i think have a better appreciation of the rigidity if you will of laws in the united states. the lack of gray, you know and i think that's why this is a story about salvation's but it's also a story of two different generations of south asians. rajat gupta, they were one generation and even though he was worn in india he came here when he was two. he is a different generation and i think what we are seeing is you know i think the assimilated

indians will be very successful in this country. i don't think they need any advice. >> hi. i attended the rashad gupta of trials last summer and was fascinated just seeing the whole family whether it was acting or genuine grief and regret going along. but, i would like a little more on the tipping point that you brought up very early in the conversation, where in that colombia speech that you referenced they seemed confused about what's next and how to go higher. how does wanting to hang out with henry trafford's and that sophisticated billionaire clamorous set and at the same

time wanting a little more money via roger rat him -- i don't understand how he won the pole. instead of wanting to be in that elite class of sophisticated billionaires, is it simply greed by your analysis? is it simply greed that attracted rajat gupta and like this gentleman here, i never heard on tape anything, any words from rajat to say that he had given the tips. my second question and that is what i'm even more interested in is did the wiretapping of roger

began because of speculation about his association with terrorists and in sri lanka giving financial aid to the tamil tigers? in other words is that collateral damage for something else that the government was interested in? >> to your second question he certainly feels that you know he told me that he wrote a letter in 2006 to the u.s. state department saying he is funding the tamil tigers and if you haven't read the book -- was also the one who wrote the recommendation to do when he

applied to harvard business school from m.i.t. and he felt that he had sort of paved the way for the feds to start looking at roger rhatman. i think again, i think it's sort of the sausage making is far messier. i think there were two parallel investigations going on by two competing u.s. attorney offices of. one was in the u.s. attorney's office and the other was the investigation in the eastern districts into the terrorism activities and the manhattan u.s. attorney's office which is known as the solvent district of new york eventually won out and

the insider trading case went forward. to your first question, i think rajat saw roger rhatman as someone who could help him make up for lost time in terms of wealth creation. rajat had this wonderful rolodex and he talked about wanting to quote unquote monetize his rolodex. he needed more money to manage and so rajat saw himself as possibly teaming up with him and making that into a legal dimension. >> there is that point where you talk about how the balance between the two shifted. rajat wanting to get plugged

into those higher places and when rajat gets the kkr offer he asked roger rhatman what do you think? do you think that balance of power had shifted and roger rhatman had --. >> i think when raj got close to roger rhatman i think each thought he came from a position of superiority. he was the one who had the great contacts, the remarkable rolodex but by the time you get to that conversation he is asking his man who his entire life had been giving advice to other corporations, advice to boards. he was the one who had actually

worked at the preeminent firm in the financial services industry. here he was asking someone who had never actually succeeded in a firm like kkr for a device on whether he should take this job. it's sort of a stunning turn of events. >> can we go to the back please? >> you my question is related to his college days in new delhi. he probably graduated sometime in the late 60's or early 70's. >> 1971. >> right, so i read that rajat comes from a humble background where roger had financial troubles. how could he afford to go to harvard? >> he got a scholarship.

>> okay. a related question is how did rajat manage to grow? was the high merrily during the late 80s that they recognized there were ample opportunities outside of the european markets so they needed someone who would go out into the nation markets? was he simply the best? >> you have to remember mckenzie is a partnership so rajat got the top job because he was elected by his partners. there is no board or anything appointing him. i think one of the recent rajat was elected to the top job was

because in the early 90s again and there was this generational's let at mckinsey. there was the old guard that was represented by people like don wade and herb hensler and there was a new upcoming guard and rajat was the perfect candidate. he was thoughtful and he was soft-spoken and nonconfrontational. i think the new guard gravitated around him. jeff skilling who was at mckinsey at the time and was actually you know people laugh but he was very, i had a lot of correspondence with jeff skilling and he is a beautiful writer and very eloquent and a very smart man. he's sort of laid out the landscape at mckinsey during the 80s and 90s and the

tensions between these two different generations. i think rajat came out of that fight successfully. >> i am asian but not indian. very obvious, right? your comment please on how the reforms in the banking reform would have affected many of these events and more importantly the future of those financial wannabes. i'm talking about the transparency brought about by basel iii. >> i'm not sure the transparency brought about via basel iii would have affected these insider trading cases. i'm not sure how that would have affected it to be honest with you. >> hi anita. we have talked a lot about rajat

gupta and i'm curious to hear more about raj rajaratnam and his motivations and the dynamic of him and his family and also ramon rajat who is facing prosecution was going to happen there if you have any comment? >> raj rajat -- raj rajaratnam to use his own language would say i am a rogue. i am a rogue, yeah and i think that's what he was. he liked to push the envelope for her to he could. he liked to play people. there is this episode in the relationship between rajat and raj. it's the end of 2006 and rajat has arranged this high-interest

loan for his friend and a consortium to buy a bank in south india. the loan is paid back in time and raj sends rajat an e-mail saying if the money doesn't arrive i'm canceling all further lunches regarding tosh capital which of course was the south asian money manager that rajat was trying to build. so raj had this you know keen sense of people. he was very street smart. he could do circles around the mckenzie men. in terms of roche's brother it's interesting to see that he is taking a very different approach from his brother to his recent indictment on charges that

insider trading. it appears that he is trying to work out a plea with the u.s. attorney's office. i suspect if he does plead guilty he will plead guilty and not cooperate. if he wants to cooperate he would also have to give the prosecutors information about his brother's and there is still one brother that you know they would be billed -- interested in building a case against. >> i know at this rate without disclosing the whole book we will take a last question. >> this may not get question. it may just be a comment but the one comment was first of all i

never thought gupta is indian and i never thought about it i was interested in the case. a lot of people that i know never really said indian. i am not an indian and i didn't discuss this with any indian so i wonder whether maybe it's just that it's an indian theme. mike parents are nigerian and i work in financial crime compliance. and it's always oh god nigerians [laughter] so i wonder if it's like oh and indian. another comment that i had was if this is just like a -- the stereotypes of indian people are they are docile and hard-working i wonder if this is i don't want

to say progress but -- [laughter] i'm really not trying to be funny. i wonder if it's just, i'm listening to everybody talk about it. there's not a very good stereotypes attached to you and this is one bad case. i don't know if my talmud is an indian. this is the second one. [laughter] >> anita i don't know if you have any comment at this point? anita is going to be available to sign copies of the book if you're interested in purchasing it and thank you so much. that was fantastic.

thank you very much. [applause]

>> the banker's new clothes is a new book by stanford professor and not as knotty. what's wrong with thinking and what did do about it is the subtitle. what is this cartoon on the front of the book? c. it shows a few bankers just wearing ties and this mother and child just staring at them. it represents some of the book unfortunately. >> you open the book with the emperors new clothes clothes story. why? >> when people say something with a straight straight face and they're dressed nicely and they have here like they know what they're talking about people think they might be missing something or they might not understand or it's just not good business to say something. it's just more convenient not to challenge what they say. we try to actually do the opposite to expose the flawed

arguments so it refers to a whole collection of -- >> host: a major reason for the success of bank lobbying is the permissive myth that banks are special and different from all other industries of economy. anyone who questions the claims are at risk of being declared incompetent to participate in the discussion. >> guest: yes, it's true. >> host: how strong is the banking lobby lobby the states? >> guest: very strong. after the crisis of 2009 it was senator durbin who said frankly wall street owns the place. the politics is a little different.there is a good political problem and that is what i learn more and more as they became involved.