>> we now have secular norms instead of theological norms that govern our acceptance or rejection of the ways in which a god or gods or a goddess can speak and what impact that has. for instance the branch davidians. you have david koresh who says he has a special insight to the bible and these insights help other members of the community understand the bible better and it allows them to live in the end times.

well that by itself doesn't seem to be a problem but when it leads to other elements, then that trigger of law enforcement concern as well as the popular press is concerned, then suddenly this idea of somebody listening to god and having his followers do things that seem to be aberrant to national norms, that's dangerous and that needs to be policed and controlled. >> we are talking with karen houppert. tell us a little bit about

"chasing gideon." >> i worked on this book for a year and a half and it's tied to the 50th anniversary of the supreme court decision gideon versus wainwright and my initial idea was to go out and take the temperature across the country to see how this issue of the right to counsel has played out in the last 50 years since the landmark decision. so, i found there is a huge crisis in the courts that public defenders are grossly overworked some of the public defenders i have talked who are carrying as many cases as 700 at a time so what i tried to do in the book was to write a book about this crisis in the court but that was written for general readers, not lawyers because one of the driving questions in my book was how can everybody that is involved in the court system, judges, prosecutors public

defenders, cops all recognize that the system is broken and there's this huge crisis and not do anything? so i went in with that question and i think the answer i walked out with is that most people outside of the judicial system don't know about these problems. so i wrote "chasing gideon" for those people who are interested in justice and fairness but don't know the intricacies of our united states court system. and i tried to tell the story narratively so that it's interesting to people and so that you see what it's like to go through the courts from a client perspective. i talk about an 18-year-old who was in a car accident and charged with the aqm manslaughter. i talk about a 12-year-old who is accused of assault because he played with the neighbor boy

allegedly and i talked about a death penalty case and other cases like that and i tried to tell the story through the a perspective of those clients and what it's like for them and how important a lawyer's role is, because the court system can be very overwhelming when you look at it and you walk into any court in the country, and you will see rows and rows and rows of people sitting on benches are standing in the hallways who are meeting their lawyers for the first time on the fly, don't know their names and they thrust out their hand and spell out the story in five minutes. and then i ask this person to go into court and defend them. and this person is juggling so many cases, can't really dedicate the time that they need to do justice to this persons person's case. so i wanted to tell that story

in "chasing gideon" and just to focus our nation's attention on that 50 years after the supreme court decision. >> what is the core reason for the system being broken? is it simply a matter of not enough money or is it a matter of there not being enough interest by qualified attorneys to do this kind of work, some kind of combination, something else? >> i think it's a combination of things. there are several systemic realms. there is a culture in the courts where sometimes among public defenders there's a sort of her gbagbo about like how much work can you do without complaining, so the culture of the courts can fuel that especially among judges who have an attitude of move the cases along, clear the docket and let's keep these going, keep the calendar clear.

so there is that culture and then there is big financial problems and financial disincentives so there is often not enough public defenders so their caseloads get to hide. that's another huge problem. and then there is also a problem with the way that public defenders are paid in many states. for example out in wishing to an state one of the cases that i wrote about out there, they have these things called contract attorneys. and they are paid a flat fee contract. for every client that gets sent their way in a particular county. all of their fees for experts or investigators are any of that have to come out of their own flat fee contract so there is a disincentive sometimes to do good work. so there are allotted different

pressure points in the system right now but i think the biggest problem is that the general public doesn't realize that and it's a hard sell to the public eco-'s all that people ever hear from politicians are kind of you know lock them up and throw away the key, three strikes you're out. they really are fearful of getting elected by talking about any of these issues or showing the least bit of fairness or empathy for these people that are going through the system. so i think there has to be a cultural shift in the kind of conversation that we have publicly on this issue. >> any good news? >> there are some places that are doing a good job. washington d.c. is one of them. they have the crème de la creme a public defender systems. ronk's public defenders has started a national movement to

limit caseloads and to try to deal more holistically with all of the issues that defendants might be facing like if they come into the system because they have been stealing and that is related to drug addiction or homelessness or whatever. those new programs are trying to have public defenders offices deal with the source of the problem and deal with the root of the problem and deal more broadly with the people that come through their system. so there is some good news out there. >> thank you for your time. >> thank you for having me.