those are. >> guest: i'm sure there's an objective answer to that and one writes books freely for reasons that are powerful and autobiographical. i don't see myself as a sort of profit who has a message for the world. i do see myself as a person trying to understand and situate myself, and then the well educated and the broad minded liberal air force officer who was to look after me had lots of chaffetz that i find interesting and he told me he wanted to create in my mind an impression i might have gotten from the media that the u.s. air force

academy was full of strange radical were sentiments. he told me something very big. when people come to this country they should learn the nation's language and i didn't think that he was speaking [inaudible] i said i agree everybody should learn spanish. i asked him what is the state. there was later an argument on that point and it made me realize that even when you are liberal, broad minded, education, kind and humane americans don't realize what the country has got with this alternative history which doesn't get from south to north

from the protestants that start with spanish missionaries. >> host: you start the book in the 1500's and puerto rico. it is interesting to me when you contrast to the methodology of the english settlers in the north with the three pigs. >> guest: it started by producing livestock with the idea that when the colony is arrived there would be something there for them to eat. they were the first permanent european colonists with three fingers and puerto rico in 1585 which is more than the first english colony established on this way all of this country. and it didn't take anything away from the tremendous creativity

and achievement of the anglo history of the united states because here i think there are wonderful stories of pioneering and fortitude and fusion, which are very impressive. but the need to show that which constitutes the hispanic side which is a story that hasn't yet been exhausted, so i just wanted to get people to see a little bit more of that history, not to displace the image of america that they've already got, but to modify it to see aspects. >> host: it's quite timely given the fact the population is growing and we keep hearing about hispanics or latinos in the united states on a daily basis, and you and i before the show were talking a little bit

about how businesses are trying to attract that marketplace and the growing market and it's a young market and bilingual market, so it is an interesting time for the book to appear. >> guest: i came across a j.c. penney photograph on the web that said now hiring bilingual speakers and that is a sort of icon of our times for which president obama did me a tremendous favor by giving people the impression that this is true that hispanics had elective him. while that kind of tells you something about america, about the united states today which has a very strong perception that you speak and the country is being transformed by the hispanic demographic.

>> host: very much so. obama -- i want to drill down on that point a little bit because obama did win in the last election more than 70% of hispanic votes, but you don't think -- >> guest: there are places like mexico and colorado and florida which are always going to be critical in general elections in the country where he could have on this basis but i think if you break down some in the case of obama's last election he won by such a margin that even the statistic. >> host: you mentioned florida even talking about obama just now. in the first chapter of your book that's where you say it was the first time that anglo american and spanish america

fused. what did you mean by that? >> guest: well, we started in places which were very far removed from one another and that's really because the spanish empire pre-empted all parts of the hemisphere that were accessible from the outside and economically exploited and colonized, but partly because of the way the wind and current of the atlantic condition was shifting routes between europe and the americas control more of those natural ports and harbors and that's why they colonized florida. the spanish never made any money

out of florida. they had to keep the missions but it was kind of worth it to keep. at the same time the english were going further south. the importance of the first to be exchanged between the two empires and put in the 17th century, florida was a very general name for a large part of the southeast of what is now the united states including what is now the georgia and in some respects it stretches right of into chesapeake in the north where the spaniards tried to control or at least find a presence. it's sort of extended frontier which the south colonization --

they used surrogates especially germans and of course black slaves. >> host: the detail in the book was amazing. tell me about the research you did for the book. how long did it take to put this together and what type of documents and sources were you looking at? >> guest: i didn't know how long it took. i had a story with a very bad memory for dates and all that. i describe that the air force academy i can't tell you now. you know when that was but i always write my books in my head. i think about them for many years before i start putting anything down on paper and let the thinking sort of match her what -- until it is pretty

corrupt. as far as the resources are concerned, i wanted to make the book on a human scale. i wanted to tell all of the stories about individuals. i don't think it was necessary to go over the u.s. history because everybody in the united states needs that year after year to study of american history over and over again. i didn't think it was worth taking the high level of analysis. so i looked for individual stories. it's always been my practice and probably terkel vice which my fellow professional historians would condemn i tried to find things that what never be found in any bibliography sort of wandering around the library

shelves in books that would accumulate a lot of dust on them and obviously haven't been read from a long time. that's how i found some of the i think more vivid stories in the look like the 18th century mystic in mexico or cleveland the england settler who wrote a wonderful memoir about a life in new mexico in the late 19th and early 20th century is. that is the kind of thing i was looking for. it's human interest. or telling the story, you know, the hispanic experience in the united states in the late 19th and 20th centuries. i looked for the books that recorded all of the war testimony and people's

experience and what it was like to cross the border as a mexican immigrant or to seek work tomato packing or something. those were the kind of things i thought would make the book interesting and the statistics -- the stories of heroism and struggling and achievement and tragedy, which really the story was a history of -- everybody in the united states and had never been an easy place to live. the climate, the topography of the land, the way the economy in cases long journeys and such.

everybody's story in the united states compounds triumphs and tragedies and the hispanic immigrants also had to endure discrimination and the impoverishment and deportation. it's even more moving and has many other people. >> host: going back to the sort of mythology that you are working through in this book, you mentioned in the second chapter -- where we are going from mississippi to the rockies and we hear the story about munez -- and you mentioned that the spaniards legitimized the conquest through their writing. can you tell about how was that a part of creating this pathology? >> guest: the culture of the spanish and hires people sometimes call it in their early modern period was on a strong

element of conscience which connects the catholic religion. and unlike the british, french and dutch and hires in the americas -- and we should find people bellyaching about what are we doing here and what is our justification and what right have we got to boss these nations around? in the spanish case, that is an almost inescapable part of everything for anybody that comes to the new world rights when they write anything at all. and indeed, the spanish crime was demanding and they produced justifications in my theology of why they had to write fighting off their enemies -- >> host: with a supportive or protective?

>> guest: it's interesting. it does rather contrast with the indifference of the most the other european community's that came to this part of the world. they wanted to protect and keep them alive, not i don't think really ultimately because spaniards are moral than anglos but because of the kind of area the spaniards took in, the americas and joined the spanish markey either by conquest or prescription. you have a very peculiar kind of environment in which the nation's labor is absolutely critical. so you had to keep them alive so they would perform otherwise you

couldn't exploit. in the parts of the united states that the english colonized, they could either rely on imported labor in the form of farmers from europe or they could bring in black slaves they don't ask why broadly speaking to the anglo american exterminate and expelled the nation's whereas spanish america tried to conserve them and keep them alive. it's not to do with different moralities. it's to do with different environments. >> host: how are the spaniards making their way across texas and new mexico and engaging or sometimes, adding with the indians, how do these interactions differ from what

they had experienced in the caribbean in florida, for example as the native tribes they were encountering? >> guest: very very crudley. this is to say you don't question, it kind of con calls me to respond with a liberalization i'm not happy with. but jerry crudley speaking, the caribbean florida and indeed in mexico and the hot land, the more productive parts of the spanish, the spaniards made naturally -- mutually agreeable accommodations with the nation's the spaniards could make use of each other. if the comanche didn't see the spaniards in that way, they didn't as a whole see them as useful. they saw them as enemies through

pillage or conquerors to resist so that was on the spanish monarchy in the new world. and of course of the comanches were a different people who regarded their power and a very large numbers in order to create a sort of empire of their own in which they were controlling and exploiting other native american people's. the apaches were a group of loosely related people who could never collaborate and create an enormous state as the comanche did. but of course, you know, because of these three worlds met in what is now the southern united states, there were lots of opportunities for interactions

between them. the spaniards were respectful of the comanche in particular they recognize the people and you have all kind of peaceful trading interactions and alliances of the comanche and spaniards, and more commonly alliances with apache and spaniards against comanche because the comanche were bigger in france and much of what was now the southwest to the apache independence much as the spaniards were. >> host: you mentioned the word entire in this last answer, and in your book you said that u.s. citizens, and even some historians, are reluctant to call the united states and empire; why is that? >> guest: as a foreigner one might say why should people in the united states have potential reasons a foreigner has the

arrogance to tell about -- in some ways i think it helps to be objective. sometimes you can see things in a difference and there for a helpful way than if you are immersed in the country and if you are a product of its education system. so yeah, i do see the united states as an entirety i said it looks like an empire and walks and quacks like an empire than it is an empire. this was a country that was created in the 19th century by conquering the land at other people's expense. the native americans and indians and canadians and later from the filipinos and such. but it expanded like every other conquest, buy taking over other people's territory.

that was the way that the united states continued to be shaped until 1917, which is this year in which the last overseas territory was absorbed in the country and they took over in 1917. so there is a long history of imperial construction at the heart of the making of this country. and i don't think it detracts from the american greatness. i think you can genuinely love someone -- you can genuinely loved america if you acknowledge the imperfections which are deeply etched in the past of the united states and in pretending it didn't happen. ..

>> if you asked her to describe she will say the

fee bill that she is a female and he is very ugly but some sort he would say they are revered creatures they own the have to eyes. when i looked at the english shooed the spanish i try to see it objectively. ended to see this profile trying to conquer these empires. and as a result of the culture to various parts of the world and spitters to

shape the world it is incredible with how many games were invented and spread even if no way part of the imperial breach we have adopted but with shakespeare. >> host: one of the other that comes out what is that? talk about how american students learn something

that americans see. >> guest: du talk the history. >> host: that is the iconic message that people take away. so liable little familiar with that culture. >> guest: absolutely. they are getting away from nowadays but don't get me wrong.

but also they will protect sometimes to be simply candid with each other. had with those stories, the told of the storybooks it just is not true. they were looking for they could impose their own

culture. and eddied they did conform with the ideology. >> for example, people who did not conform persecution and with three generations of mothers and fathers said massachusetts to persecute minorities but in order to establish a democratic tradition and the my grandson but of course, but

they didn't because of religious persecution if they did not persecuted half. i am amazed they do not realize they were already exiled and then they stopped to pick up a few more migrants. >> host: before we take care breaks the big question spanish or latino? spee backed the idea that you should call that the big

question in. >> i called myself that i can't see any good reason for abandoning from someone of spanish origin and or the spanish american and so it is more inclusive. >> headed people are happy that i am happy to reflect that back. >> host: we will be right back.

>> host: talking a little bit about our history spanish forces lettie now looking as say puerto rican woman who was also a woman multiculturalism coming up occasionally how to identify as an american and delaware p.r. and it seems to be an issue and to talk about creole and the

by cultural identity to take shape. to talk about these identities that people have. >>. >> i can speak a little bit i can understand. >> so typically to switch. >> it is like a layer cake. people tell you they have to slice the layer cake to have the single identity of a

family who has lived for centuries and bad also to be european. a better approach to you to be opened from your world. with the same equivocations. >> betty wanted to distance themselves that those were people from the south of spade. >> they were not allowed to because strictly speaking they were not allowed to

take part of the overseas empire. id with the 19th century there was more of the catholic empire than the spanish empire but it reminds be the spanish professor to give a lecture about the conquest of colectivo hispanic percent who said how dare you tell us this story of your issue ancestors brutalized but it is true with. >> chapter four we get into california and back end in

particular he paid to a fascinating picture of and sellers who began to get to the state. what was south america and mexico but for the trends happening there that could influence what is now california? >> obviously strictly speaking but that really didn't begin until 1760 after the result land exploration and mapping. they did not colonize convert the natives and tell

parian they to by that stage when i refer to as the spanish monarchy in the in these you have a fabulous cities and the enormous wealth and engineering projects it is so remarkable for 81 from the united states from bolivia or as far as south america and mexico so you kid see how they were. with a great grandeur and

prosperity of course, it did decline relative to those empires. but the of lovell of achievement in the creation of these great cities the dynamic economy it is extraordinary. all of the very late 18th century but they are animated by what was represented by the great populist economies and dave

wanted to create something like that and california as quickly as possible. when you ask why why do they sacrifice so much time and effort to you and money and manpower, why is there so much why do they found so many workshops from candles to metalwork and munitions because they do you could create a great european style world in the environment is you could

turn the forgers into productive citizens of the spanish monarchy like we were talking about the different attitudes as a force of nature as the citizens had to elevate like a child who could raise to adulthood. so i feel a model of what you could achieve but they're rarely influences. >> one of things that struck me living in spain it means the united states and the list we call ourselves american pripet that is

north and south and canada canada, is there any thought to why that is but not with a girlish? >> guest: you probably know about the characters the spaniards would call him because he thinks it implies the words that we use for each other to have the residents but obviously for what it is to other americans that it is america '01 of the betty in the hemisphere.

i don't want to get into trouble trying to tell you but but i am not so sure of the future of the greatness of the united states. it is a country that i it meyer we all know it is in crisis the world that would remain the top super power to affect continuing future then they realize the hemisphere opportunities that indeed to be embraced

that the hemisphere will continue to fulfill its potential you will just make your task much harder but also the and exploited wealth outside the united states you need is taken that you will not get one. >> host: on all sides of america. >> yes. canada canadian oils tunes -- sans it is opportunity but put it this way. i think i am not sure but what makes few devastates

change from a marginal form of the country into world's great power house issued a superpower? with the previously exploited from the prairie above all this that formerly was a desert that then became the best farmland in of the world. they had unexploited resources. the relatively speaking your oriole even those resources are being depleted you have to look elsewhere. and also with argentina if

you want of a piece of those >> host: go we in to part two of your book we begin to see the rise of what you call institutionalized racism in the united states and now the have blacks, hispanics, blacks, hispanics, spanish, indigenous folks years of now this is becoming a much more complex racial demographics that the of his state's is starting to deal with. tell us about that. what was the rise of institutionalized? give us some examples. >> it happened partly because we reject common

feature of you did psychology to seek people you can identify with as well as those that you exclude from communal tensions are those that is the attention of you would psychology. if you want to sympathize with some people to it differentiate from others. but the basis of that you talk about with a particular historic period beattie and 20th centuries because science endorsed it it was

supported by pseudoscientific analysis with the relatively uninvolved and relatively more involved. you can see racism at the expense of black people with the saving which and the deep south and was transferred to hispanics by people from those regions. so icy to with the people

scientifically because it would animate or characterized cultural attitudes. >> host: speaking about race the way hispanics are counted to dave by the census with ethnicity and as a brace you would check how many boxes both racially and ethnically. flood of the things that are considered now is to eliminate that to change that so hispanic is considered a brace of itself. was are your thoughts? >> guest: i don't understand why do we classify otherwise? it is completely meaningless.

we do good or bad or useful citizens come with these things happen if they to do much less with their ancestors but the genes are powerful enough? fair very useful to universities because day get a lot of credit with a grant making institutions but that is a silly goose i thought we were passed by now. >> host: are we entering into the post racial society?

>> guest: in some ways, we have domesticated the language of race, we better cells comfortable because we think we don't want her have these hostilities that are based on race do therefore we take all lots of freedom but since it doesn't mean anything very useful, i preferred not to talk about it at all. right to use the word race of fair amount spent talk about objective realities. >> as we make our way through the final chapters of the book you begin to talk about the rise of political activism in the hispanic community.

we talked earlier if the president won more than 70 percent of the hispanic vote in strategists try to figure out how to capture the latino vote. you can see marco rubio, what do these figures represent and can democrats assume they have a latino voting bloc? >> i think so. but i say this tentatively, but if you profile those who are brought to action with a

look more like republicans they you democrats typically they have very high longevity. but the whole republicans are better represented than you'd democrats. so the american elections seems to be decided by be coming from europe it is social values not the economy stupid. it is very interesting to look at the psychological profile and hispanics typically say 10 and to be

much more committed with low rates of family and stability that you find more strongly foisted a republican and rhetoric of that the regrets. hispanics even if they are not catholic they tend to be much more sensitive about the rights of the of board that ray identifies them with the policies so i am more convinced the democrats are losing cope with the hispanic base because they sympathize with the democrats recently because of social policies that favor the deprived a of the

pork hispanics over representative but in the long run that will even self out. in the immigration issue with those attitudes to victimize the so-called = humanity and kindness to talk about immigration issues also the inevitable future of this country to remain great that is the embracing attitude cannot

see why they should not become just as an enthusiastic. >> host: you mentioned a link wages in your book i will give you a datapoint from the census bureau. the number of hispanics speaking is expected to double from 11.1 million up that 20 million in 2020. what impact do you see that having? is language one of the unifying elements? at. >> guest: notes node no. it is very widely assumed to when i first came here i was shocked to find people have obsessive attitudes to english that it cannot be a country if it has more than one language that is

completely contrary to every successful state in the past. there is more than one language you need one to share a common allegiance with a common endeavor. i do predictive the book that hispanics will maintain their language and they may regret that because it is a terrible shame because it would be twice as good. [laughter] if you learn more languages

so you know, how this enriches your wife to have more language it doubles your vocabulary. the kyushu more access to literature agent to the united states they don't understand what bilingualism is they think it is spanish and english speaking children if you're english-speaking child did you could really have a bilingual country and some much more exciting. i suggest it would generate so much more achievement if you look at every other great society in history has more than one language. >> host: then one of the