on four sties you get better advice and this goes to the professional military education in this system and the need to have very rigorous sense of professional military education the counts in an officer's career and as a way station. >> finally, south korea, iraq, still in south korea. >> i give you a strategic reason for having a strong ally in iraq and that is the ability to have a lot of oil for decades to come and i know we all love green energy but for decades to come we are going to be dependent on hydrocarbons to fuel the world's economy and therefore the middle east is going to matter and continue to mater. >> when you fly back to ohio you are not going to take -- >> no. the new saudi arabia, we have shale oil deposits in southeastern ohio.

>> thank you very much. [applause] >> you will be willing to sign books? >> yes. [silence] >> welcome to booktv, 40 hours of nonfiction authors and books every weekend on c-span2. here is a look at some of the programs you will see this weekend on booktv. peter mansoor -- robert edsel author of "the monuments men" takes your e-mails for an hour live on booktv. steven jimenez argues the killing of matthew shepard in 1998 was not an anti-gay hate

crime bill was the result of a drug-related robbery gone wrong. phyllis says lawyer describes her experience as a jewish woman in afghanistan married to a muslim fundamentalist. richard benjamin to talk about down to the crossroads:civil rights, black power and the march against fear on booktv's afterwards. this and much more on booktv on c-span2. the full schedule is available at booktv.org. here is a look at the top 10 best-selling nonfiction books according to indy bounds. number one on the list is everything i need to know i learned from a little golden book. second is duty:a memoir of former defense secretary robert gates. followed by new yorker writer malcolm glad well's david and goliath. these offers recently appeared on booktv and their programs can be viewed any time on line at booktv.org. jennifer senior's book all the

land no fun comes in fourth and examines the effect of children on their parents. the boys on the boat by daniel brown tells the story of the american rowing team. x is brain drain by david pearl followed by charles krauthammer's collection of political columns things that matter:3 decades of passion, pastime and politics. watch the pulitzer prize-winning syndicated columnist's program from the george w. bush presidential library and our web site, booktv.org. rep and the list the pleas are memoirs, kelly gordon's, glitter and luann and hachette's story this is the story of a happy marriage. for more information on these books and others go to

indybound.org. >> women's history for beginners is the booktv book club selection for the month of february. booktv.org, you will see right up there at the top but tab that says book club and you can participate in our discussion at booktv.org. we will be posting video and reviews and articles up there tomorrow so the discussion will begin tomorrow and we will be posting a regular basis discussion questions so i hope you can participate. bonnie morris's women's history for beginners is our february of 2014 book club selection on booktv. >> this weekend on c-span the national governors' association kicks off their winter meeting live this morning at 10:00 eastern with an opening news conference and throughout the weekend with panels on homeland security, early education, jobs and prescription drug abuse. live on booktv, talk to the "the

monuments men" author robert edsel, the task of withdrawing european cultural artifacts stolen by the nazis this morning at 11 on c-span2. un c-span3 the premier of american history tv's real america:archival films produced from the 1930s-1970s my government, industry and education institutions, watch sunday at 4:00 p.m.. >> next panel discussion about "the monuments men," about the allied team task with recovering and protecting european cultural artifacts and not seize stole during world war ii. this is about an hour and 30 minutes. [applause] >> michael, you are down.

[laughter] >> there we go. okay. >> robert's second book is entitled "the monuments men":allied heroes, not the thieves and the greatest treasure hunt in history. this panel tonight will discuss those allied heroes, "the monuments men," the nazi thieves and the greatest treasure hunt in history. with ambassador stuart eizenstat on the panel we will discuss taunt the more contemporary efforts by the united states government to address the loss and return of what in the late 1990s we began calling holocaust your assets. away what has been done since the 1990s is following in the steps of the monuments men using

the records they created as our guide to the past and using them to help turn history into justice, an expression i stole from stuart eizenstat and have used frequently without attribution. we know that world war ii witnessed the greatest murder in history, the holocaust. it also witnessed the greatest theft in history. the nazis and their axis partners took what they wanted. monetary, gold, real property, movable property, intellectual property, communal and religious property. they also took cultural property in numbers that stagger the imagination. they even took gold fillings from their victims. much of what was taken was from the european jewish community. the theft was often in direct as

we learned in the 1990s as witnessed by what happened to jewish accounts in swiss banks and insurance policies issued to jews by german and an italian insurance companies. st was greatly involved in these issues beginning in the 1990s and perhaps you can tell us a little about the swiss bank and insurance issues and whether there has been any resolution of those issues. >> thank you, greg, thank you for hosting this, david. as greg said, the holocaust was not only the greatest genocide in history. it was the greatest theft in history. it was a war within a war in which nazi germany diverted enormous amounts of resources to the very last days of the war to script and jews of everything they had including their lives.

away, the theft of art and other properties is as old as warfare. go back to the 70 a.d. conquest of jerusalem by the romans, the insignia we see of the arch of tightness in wilma, the mona lisa taken on one of napoleon's ventures but what distinguished this theft was its bread, its debt, its efficiency, its organization. so, for example, with respect artworks, it is estimated at 600,000 pieces of art were stolen. 8,000 of which were personally selected by adolf hitler for museum he planned after the war in his home town but art work was only a part of it. so, for example, homes and

businesses, jewelry, gold fillings, insurance policies and bank accounts. let me just mention the bank accounts and insurance policies which will come back to the art little later. what we found through an article in the wall street journal that i read in brussels, a front-page article, and it said that there were dormant swiss bank accounts, accounts that had been set up during the war primarily by jews trying to shield their money in the safest banking system in europe from the onslaught of the third reich and after the war, those who survived or if they didn't, their families who tried to recoup those bank accounts were told that they couldn't be found. in fact, what happened is the accounts were drawn down month after month by charges over 50 years and taken into the profits

of the banks. i got permission from the state department and dick holbrooke who was working on holocaust issues to go to switzerland, i met with the swiss bankers association and gave the makati of this wall street journal article and i sit is this true? and they said yes, it is to an extent. we had our own -- we found that there are 732 dormant bank accounts which should have been returned and weren't and if we plus that of today's values that would be $32 million and we are going to return everyone. not taking the for face value we appointed paul volcker to a commission that work for five years, got major accounting firms, charge to swiss banks $200 million in accounting and we found that there were 54,000 possible accounts, 21,000 certain accounts, and the settlement was reached for $1.25 billion.

with respect to insurance companies like winterthird and many others did the following. there were insurance policies on the lives of individuals and what happened after the war is the family's of those who were killed, life-insurance policies, tried to recoup and they were told that the policies had lapsed because the premiums were paid while people were in auschwitz. this was only discovered again by a single late 1990s, we created the international commission on holocaust insurance claims under former secretary of state larry eagleberger, and in a consensual way after we got everyone together there were 19,000 policies paid over $400 million so the dimensions of this where

peeling back the layers of an onion. one thing led to another. slave labor, ended up getting almost $8 billion in compensation from german private companies and the german government and austrian private companies for their employment of slave and forced labor and the majority of that were for non-jewish laborers that ended up 1 million people got compensation as a result of that. was a very extensive effort of which part was a peace but only a piece. speaking -- thank you. speaking of art and going back to before and during world war ii can you tell us what the nazis took in terms of art? who did the taking and what did they do with what they took? >> i was thinking today about the term we use, nazi looting, the common phrase. i think that gives you an idea

of want in acts of opportunistic looting like a power outage and people break into the television and electronic store and while that certainly, i am sure, occurred, what we are talking about in terms of nazi compensation was much more systemic, bureaucratic, from the leadership down, targeting certain categories of individuals, certain countries, and it was enacted by various bureaucratic arms of the nazi regime. it varied from country to country within germany and austria, was much more through the taxation offices when there were laws passed that jews have to pay certain taxes or later in occupied countries, working in poland and holland and holland

particularly, working with the banks that were taking over jewish assets, and the most well-known organization is the e r r, and that is an arm that was originally confiscating propaganda, something the not these were trying to subdue and was turned into an arm for confiscating the assets of jews in france and belgium so it is important, you can use the term eluding but keep in mind it was really a bureaucratic effort from pataki down. where it was going to go, as we all know hitler had plans to have the greatest museum in the world, he was going to own all of europe and other nazi party leaders were collecting because they thought it showed them to be civilized people and for

collecting them for themselves. like any regime, like many regimes, the nazis really used art to their advantage. >> did they sell part to raise money to support the war effort? >> we saw the currency--the regime that you are familiar with will be used as a currency and individual collectors did that. he was select -- he didn't keep it for himself. he traded it for things he would prefer. it was the kind of currency, in this party to the movement fashion. >> having an extensive knowledge of the nazi theft of gold, art and other property, in january of 1943, the allies issued what

was called the london declaration, declaring their intention to stop nazi plundering and looting and warning they reserve the right to not recognized forced sales of property or sales of property made to under duress. at the same time the allies became increasingly concerned about the damage to and destruction of cultural property. in america this concern manifested itself in a twofold manner. first was the creation of the american commission for the protection and salvage of artistic and historic monuments in work areas. for short is the roberts commission, its chairman was a supreme court justice roberts. the second thing was the creation within the military establishment of specialists to deal with the protection of cultural property so robert, can you tell us about the roberts

commission and the creation of the monuments men? >> yes. >> thank you very much. [laughter] >> it is a little bit boring. a very long name that you heard, greg, some acronyms, but he sensually it really begins three or four years earlier. there is a man named george doubt who was a pioneer in the conservation of works of art who is so cold he fought in the last year of world war i. he saw the destruction and damage their. went into art conservation, worked in harvard's museum and had this vision in between the wars watching the extraordinary damage in spain from the civil war and the advent of new technologies of bonding that were causing fires and a

conviction, due to correspondence he had with friends that worked in german museums many of whom were jews that were having to flee germany and go to england to try to get away from the bad times, he was convinced that this would be in the second world war. matching that with the events he was observing in spain, side disaster on the horizon. the united states might become engaged in this war, trying to defeat nazi germany, destroy western civilization that it would be a permanent stain on the american military and the united states. even before the japanese sneak attack in december 7th. during war, before we were engaged in the war. following december 7th, very much like following september 11th, 2001, the great fear was there was going to be

an invasion of the east coast for bombing of it east coast by the nazi is or bombing by the japanese and museum directors were asked to convene at the metropolitan museum about the third week in december of 1941 to discuss initially the protection of works of art in this country and our main museums including the national gallery of art which largely in the den of night on december 31st evacuated 70 some odd of the most important pictures in north carolina. and where they sat out the war. as happened with september relevance it became fairly clear fairly quickly is that what happened was what was going to happen in the short term and the focus shifted from being concerned about how to protect things in this country to how do we go about avoiding destroying so much of mankind's great creative achievements in western

europe. stout proposed this concept of cultural preservation officers, a new kind of soldier charged with saving rather than destroying and had envisioned a more elaborate setup of secretaries and assistants, typewriters and vehicles, none of which was manifested by the time this unfolded and he was suspicious of museum directors and convince, he referred to them as -- he was convinced by the time they got ahold of these ideas they would so much it up that it wouldn't end up going anywhere. and at some point in time within the next year or so gave up on the idea and went in to working with something else he knew about which in the military was the camouflaging of aircraft. not too far from restoration of the war department dealing with me. his great supporter was paul sacks who was a pioneer introducing the first museum studies course in the united

states at harvard known as the studies course and it was a farm club for museum directors, curators, the cultural country we know today. there were 20 sacked babies that became monuments officers'. for those who are old enough to have seen the old mission impossible tv series you recall lead beginning peter graves would sit down after knowing the assignment and flicked through his dossier of experts to decide which ones he wanted to have to deal with the challenges of that mission. paul sacks performed this responsibility working for the roberts commission, starting with all the students he graduated since 1920 and there were 20 students that were architects, linguists, most had been educated in europe. the key factor was who was already in the military, even reserves because they quickly realized it was going to be much easier to transfer somebody in the military than to get somebody in that wasn't in it.

this was the origin of where this idea comes from, and by late 1942 the idea comes from a lot of different groups, american council of societies, people -- a lot of well-intentioned people including those on this link the name known as the roberts commission, but george stock's idea that was represented in this and it reaches president roosevelt's desk in 1942, april of 1943. he says pretty simply makes a lot of sense to me, good idea, i approve, they are off and running getting the formalities set up but the selections don't really begin until the summer of 1943. and nothing happened by this stage. that is the interesting explanation rather than the

complicated version. >> these units the monuments were assigned to were monument fine arts and archives and the archivists always felt like third class citizens. compared to their fine art of museum column. at any event. and establishing monument men, roberts commission, parallel activities going on in the in the british. ..

and also gathering intelligence about what the nazis were doing in terms of looting cultural property with individuals like rose millard. played by kate blanchet in the movie. robert, can you tell us about her? >> by milo thinking she is one of the great heroines of world war ii. for all the ladies in the audience that that put up with as the guys dragging you to world war ii movies, this is your film. you have a hero, heroine in this film and she is a remarkable woman. kate blanchet is hard to believe she could transform herself into a period as rose, but she does a quite successful. rose is this woman to the french considered a custodian in a mail

dominated environment -- male-dominated environment. we would have considered her a curator. if you have you walked in paris, you walked right past this building with the really kind of an early stage indoor tennis court don't in the 17th century. it became a central headquarters for the nazi looting operations in france and in pairs in particular and it was there that the tens of thousands of works stolen from the great collectors in france, rothschild and others, so many of them also worked your families were brought in and are oftentimes photographed inventory, this was a particularly evil or pernicious album of what they did. they would assign inventory codes to these works of art. so rothschild, the french rock

pile get -- rothschilds would be and are. i've seen inventory numbers up and almost the 6000 of rothschild and even that is an understatement because many other things the monuments officers later found which michael is done a great job in the '80s writing about a lot of this were jewelry chests that might've hundreds of objects in them. that counted as one can or thomas, and monuments officer was the director of -- recruiter told collection that was one object on the inventory but there 10,000 coins in the. so the numbers get to be a steward said earlier be staggering very quickly. rose is there with responsibility of managing this building and the germans know they need your there to make sure the lights are working. but she understands german and they don't know this. her boss who is another hero, director of the french museum

has placed you there with responsibility of essentially spying on activities. so she's making secret notes over a four-year period, and is there each of the 20 times when goering comes on a shopping expedition. that's not being playful with the terms. they make these exhibits they set up with tapestries, furniture. stewart reference things that were stolen to the easiest way to say it was if there's any value to it, the nazi stille. gary would come and it would be champagne and to have a cigar and in one of his 20 michael jackson outfits, white nearly uniform, just amazing the number of different photos we have of him coming in and out and makes selection of things, knowing some of these great things had to go to the cure's collection and those who want to have for himself. rose valland did these notes in her dress and sometimes they're written on the back of envelope.

tuesday in trash cans looking for photo negatives, shipping manifests and over the course of four years she knows largely the number of works that come to picture recognizes many of them because they're so famous, and she knows the location where many of them have been taken. a lot of time with her about rose valland's secret diary. it's not a direct. it's an album that all these different pieces of notes and scraps of paper have been put in one document for people like us to go look at where they're all in one place. at the end of the war in france in deliberation period of august 1944, she survived this. she's very suspect by the people in france that she survived it. she's considered a collaborator, and she doesn't turn over the information, all the information just to her boss on his advice because there's so much collaboration to the one in france knows who to trust. her loyalty is to the works of art over and above being a

patriot. she's encouraged to work with american monuments officer named jim who is at the time the curator of -- six director of the map after the war and they do this dance over a period of about six months of what i really refer to as kind of a dance, a courtship, not in a romantic sense but in trying to see if he can be trusted with this information. and there are two people of destiny, each holding half of the same key. rose valland is determined to find every single thing taken from her country and she presses with this until 1981 when she died never gives up on it and becomes a real pain in the side too many people in france whicho just want the subject to go away. but she as a woman in a man's world she's not part of the military, no transportation. and on the other hand, gym and

wants to fulfill his destiny and do something great and he realizes he can play a role in recovering the works of art stolen from france. he's got transportation, he's part of a second lieutenant in the american army but he doesn't have, doesn't know where to go. this is the dynamic between the two of them, back and forth, her probing and testing to see can he be trusted? will he return these things to france? it's a fascinating dynamic, a story within a much bigger story, and i think it's one of the great parts of the film that both matt damon who plays jim and kate lynch it -- kate blanchet place. >> you mentioned sicily. in 1943, of course the allies invaded sicily and then the mainland italy at this stage of the war there were very few monuments men. they had some successes. they had some failures. and all of this is explained in

robert's third book, saving italy. at robert, did you, briefly talk about some the challenges in monuments men, do they have transportation? did they have maps? >> they -- it was a pathetic beginning. i think we can say that the it was an army of one at the beginning to president roosevelt who realize this is a good idea also understood that they needed to buy time for the selection process to occur and the army bureaucracy to be over, to get some of these guys over there. and on his orders a man named nathan -- links to show fans of people of either graduated from harvard or been to a harvard commencement. okay, you all know who he is because he red commencement at harvard every year from the late 1920s until 1999 when he died, with the exception of the war

years. he was a classics professor at harvard and he was selected by president roosevelt and alone in the theater. they knew they were that far behind the eight ball and he arrives in sicily three weeks after the american british led invasion. he actually flew to algeria thinking is going to be a monuments officer and was afterward to tell them you're just a briefly into we take you to sicily. he said i don't know anything about that area. well, and he didn't, but nathan gets there, ma there's no vehicles, no operations. they don't, they are just winging it. but the thing is these monuments officers and all men at the beginning or into combat our average age about 40. loverly accomplished careers, most o families, many of kids er used to do the jobs of the resource so they didn't find it

intimidating, and were pretty clever in resourceful and try to figure how to do things. while the army didn't help them any, they didn't pay much attention to them either. to the extent they could come up with solutions, they were pretty effective but at the beginning for the first five months the operation fell on his face over and over again to the point that general marshall wrote his protége, general eisenhower, in october of 43 and said, you need to be very careful because people here are reading horrible newspaper accounts of damage in italy by us, by the allies. and perceived hostile secretary-general eisenhower at the outset didn't leave any special orders were necessary. he thought these men and women are part of the civil affairs decision and have a job to do, military structure will work and people pay attention to them. a time and time again it wasn't working. and monuments officers would go

post buildings out of bounds so american troops, british troops couldn't live in them, damage them, take things. and a monuments view the army officers and troops ignored them. and so by the time of november and december when the operations clearly were failing, general eisenhower changes in my view the face of war, and issue the s this directive on december 29, 1943, albeit 6 months after the word in italy has begun. but it says that it's the responsibility of all commanders and troops respectful treasure so much as war allows but and if it comes down to the lives of our men or an object, the lives of our men count more. however, too often times it is used as an excuse of convenience, and that will not be tolerated. and this was a sea change in how wars were fought. because the monuments officers never really got much more help than that. they didn't have vehicles.

the hitchhiker their way around the country and making it up as they go, but the senior monuments officer in italy said it was the first solid ground under our feet. they could go around and see these commanders and show this directive and it had currency within. we should say that general eisenhower and is convinced that went to school on the state they made. and by the time of the normandy landing, that same order similarly worded is issued two weeks before the normandy landing. >> we are way behind schedule, so i ask my colleagues to try to keep their answers short. but once the allies landed in france in june 1944 and allies increased the bombings of germany, the germans began hiding their own property in the

property be looted primarily in southern germany. the salt mines, in monasteries, castles, air raid bunkers. and some germans at this point, especially in late 44, believed they would lose the war. the smartest thing to do is get to all the stolen loot to a safe haven outside of germany. and the united states government initiated something called operation safe haven, to basically bring the intelligence gathering capability of the treasury department, state department, foreign economic initiation to find out where these assets were going. in 1997-1998, ambassador eizenstat oversaw the production of two government reports about the looting, about operation safe haven, about monetary goal

-- gold and the looted gold and victim gold, and these reports were quickly produced and were not well received in some places. ambassador eizenstat, can you tell us what prompted the administration to want to these reports produced and what was the outcome of? >> first, robert has done an enormous service to this book, but i want to try to put it in an even broader context. and that is, it's a great tribute not only to the monuments men but to the united states army and the united states of america. contrast this enormous effort to save cultural property to get it returned to its rightful owners. with the action of the soviet

union coming from the east to berlin, and they were intent on doing just the opposite, stripping germany, stripping its museums of everything that they could that was movable, taking it back to russia as war compensation for their enormous losses. so here we are doing exactly the opposite, trying to preserve it, trying to get it back to its original owners while the soviets are trying to compensate themselves for their losses. with respect to the report, we had lawsuits that were being brought against the swiss banks, and we began to realize that there was a broader story than the amounts put in swiss banks by victims. and that broader story was how did the germans finance a war

effort for 12 years when their currency, the right mark, was accepted as international currency? and to his enormous credit, william, may he rest in peace whwho was then the historian of the state department came to me and said we ought to look into this. they had an agency study with more than one dozen agencies involved including the cia and others come and we could really a landmark study on what happened to the gold that was looted by the germans and went to switzerland. not private swiss bank accounts, not private banks, but as the germans swept through europe, they stole the gold both from jews by primarily in larger amounts from the central banks of the governments that they occupied. and in order to get the hard currency to finance the war, they took the gold and gave it to the central bank of

switzerland which knew exactly what the real reserves of the bank were, realize early on that this was far in excess of reserves the german central bank is, and that these were looted. they converted that called into swiss francs which the germans then used to finance the war effort. and we disclose this in our report. it caused course and explosion in switzerland, and then we did a follow-up report in next year of what other neutral country, portugal, spain and turkey have done to facilitate the war effort. now, to switzerland great's dashindashof switzerland great y ended up taking our report, and if anything, improving on it. they appointed professor to do their own report, his report is a landmark and self-examination. and as a result of our report in his report we ended up getting

20 countries, greg, to set up their own historical commissions to look at their role during the war. we are really running behind at this point. [laughter] i mean, i knew that every single question would be a one day answer, or a one book answer spent we are doing well. we cut it down. [laughter] >> we will skip over basically, and you can read this in robert's book, the whole movement in 1944 and 45, the greatest treasure hunt in history. or you can see against version in the movie are but it was dangerous and hard work. and to monuments men, office, were killed. and american walter, and it bridges major, ronald balfour. siding, these were scholars

putting their lives on the line, iif some cases in both cases thy were killed actually trying to rescue property that was in harm's way your this treasure hunt of where the loot was came from all these different sources. but as the war was ending, though still a lot of questions, where is all the loot, who is involved in taking the loot? things that we know now from the work by others but the latter part of the world, the office of strategic services created something called the art looting investigation unit. it was staffed by monuments men so michael, can you tell us about the art looting investigation you know, where they operate, what they did and what they produced? >> okay. i will try to do it and not in a day or in a book. it's really amazing how much is

out sometimes to a very small group. this was just 10 individuals. three of them were prince with the skaters, art historians. theodore rousseau, laying, professor of women's college, and james clout from the fog museum. and the task was to try to identify where this vast network of hidden assets, their emphasis was on cultural materials, art and archives, libraries. and so there was a lot of concern that this material would become fodder for sale in the black market and financed an anti-resistance. there was a lot of concern in late 1944-1945 that they would be a nazi resistance after their defeat. so during the war, that counterintelligence effort by the allies and about 2000 individuals have been marked as

people who were involved somehow in this black market. so they had names to get an idea of who were the players and from the spring of 1945 onward they go into germany and austria, and the to basically two things. they did an enormous amount of archival research because the records that name -- veteran to mention were located. they were looking at records that were found in the fuhrer bow in munich, and they also interrogate key individuals who were the players in the art market. and i think these three were very disappointed actually. because after the war while rosenberg and others were held accountable, the second tier actually got away with that any indictments, without the senses, and they started business again. but nontheless, they were able to map out where all of this

material was and saved an enormous amount of time and saved these materials from being looted by others and being lost. and they produced a detailed interrogation report on 12 individuals, and also special studies of the project of hitler's and on goering's personal collection, and also on rosenbergs. so this group, this very small group of investigators did an enormously critical job in laying the groundwork for the monuments men's work at the end of the war. >> they help assist the process identified where the art was, it is art, both german owned and looted, ended up coming frequently to collecting points. these are operated by monuments men with immense quantity of art

trying to put humpty dumpty back together again. while i was doing my dissertation on american revolution from michael at the great since read his own what happened to this property, what with the policies and procedures for returning it? >> thank god he didn't. [laughter] >> so michael, tell us how they handled this property, getting it back to the rightful owners. >> -- [inaudible] he had the notion of grading a central connecting point. there were about 1300 repositories with the germans have hidden all the smoking of the most of it in the u.s. zone of occupation. and so you just can't operate and run 1300 different places. so as greg mentioned they set up these operations, an architect with the chief of the money was activity and the operations on the ground. and it is amazing that these monuments officers were able to

just create these places. they don't have a lot of support from the army. but the munich collecting point where it went, in two weeks time by the middle of june 1945, the whole thing, the fuhrer bow is refurbished, security is set up, there is coal for heat, which was absolutely critical actually, and so millions of items flowed been. wiesbaden had mostly art from medicine, some internal art, there was a site for looted jewish material. archives, libraries, religious items, scrolls and so forth. so this individual is critical to ultimate restitution. >> thank you, michael. robert frequently reminds us that the mission of the monuments men is unfinished and,

indeed, as ambassador eizenstat and ultimately, the mission is unfinished. want important activity in fulfilling the mission of the monuments men was the 1998 washington conference on holocaust era assets. this conference adopted was called a washington principles and each of these should have in your program a copy of these principles which were adopted in 1998 and then reaffirmed begin in lithuania in 2000, and prague in 2009. how the principles come about and how this countries fulfilling following them? >> i negotiate the principles but it's important to understand that there was a huge gap through no fault of the monuments men, the basic principle was that the art would be returned to the countries

from which it was taken. rather than trying to go through an impossible task of finding the individual owners. and so art was returned, for example, to france, and to many other countries, on the theory that they would set up their own claims processes to allow claimants to recover their individual art. and that did not happen. in part because much of the art was airless, all the families are killed but in part because they send one to keep the art themselves. a collection in france. and then a major activity occurred the attitude this act of cold war. all the attention of the allies that had come as robert has described, focused on this collection and restitution, was properly focused on the new soviet threat.

and so from the end of the war, essentially into 1997, 1996, there was almost no attention to this issue. there were a number of scholars who wrote about this. there was a bard conference in 1995 that elevated the issue. and then what really brought it to the tension was a catalyst that no one would've expected. there was an exchange, a typical exchange that occurred with a museum in austria to the u.s., to the museum of modern art's, and they have forgotten remarkably to go through the very simple process of filling out the form for the state department which protects these from being seized. and they didn't and they were claimed by a holocaust family.

and robert morgenthau, a manhattan attorney, then subpoenaed the art, and it sent a shock wave through the american museum community. and that resulted in the amt, the american associates of museum directors, under pressure creating a series of guidelines for researching art, for publishing potentially nazi looted art, for establishing a process. and what we did is we came behind that and we internationalized it with our conference in december 1998 at the state department with 44 countries. and were able to get them to agree to a set of principles which was research to see if any was suspect, publish any that maybe, and establish mechanisms and claims processes, and make

sure that you establish alternative dispute processes that are based on decisions on the merits and not technical defenses. and it was a great burst of activity in the american community. by the national gallery, nancy returned a piece of art, which they found which was well known, at the chicago art institute and others. but then what happened is after a terrific momentum creating a search engine, saqlain wouldn't have to go to one or different museums in the united states, they could file one claim and it would go to all 100 museums that would search. to all of this was done christie's and sotheby's established and still have full-time employees look for any suspect art, and i was in any given year a dozen are returned and won't be sold. but here's what happened, and it's a shame.

is that momentum was lost. the leadership that the u.s. showed really began to dissipate, and the museums over time started to assert tactical defense when claims were made, like, for example, the statute of limitations has run. they even preemptively filed injunction suits to prevent claims before they were made. they said they did it after researching it themselves and determining it was alluded but there was no objective measure of that. and then we ended up ironically having started this whole process falling behind and finding that the dutch, the germans, the austrians, the british established their own commissions, and they were functioning better than we. the austrians incorporate the washington principles on the law to return 250 paintings. for sure those commissions are much criticized but at least they exist. we don't have a commission. we do not have the commission.

partly it's because our museums except a national -- private museums. in europe they are public museums. we can do and i suggested that we sent out, for example, a harvard mediation service with no use government money at all and mediation panel so that these disputes could be done without these technical defenses. so i'm sad to say that after this passage of 50 years where we then revived it, through the washington principles and the aamd, that we have really fallen back, we stagnated and we need to get back into fulfilling what robert, the monuments did. get back to where we were been. spent what i would like to do now is have nancy, what is the american museum community doing, and make a short, placed.

>> i would respectfully disagree with ambassador eizenstat that we need the commission in the united states. the commissions that are set up in europe or for totally different category of objects, objects that were recovered after the war, known to some kind of issue and in the custody of those countries. and they need to deal with those. the objects in american collection are here by happenstance. it's more erratic and what the american museums community has done since the 1998 conference which ambassador eizenstat was so instrumental in congress adopt these guidelines for research publication. but they'r their misleading sime guidelines. the research, for example, researchers wasn't something in american museum but this specific research into the world war ii period using these records that here at the national archives are very, it's very competent and is very different from anything that historians have done.

and i am proud to say that the american museum community has partner with national archives many times over the past decade to do multiple training sessions for curators around the country on how to access these materials. we have done to major conferences out in college park and we getting international conference in 2007 and then we did two years ago right in this very room a two-day international conference on accessing these remarkable resources that here at our national archives. coming up in june we have another partnership coming. so i would say that we are trying as hard as we can do research our collection. we are open to anyone has any questions, and no an american museum i can say this forcefully wants to anything on their walls that doesn't belong to them spent i would say at first -- we would need if the museums raise tactical decision of let it be

made on merit. second, your own attorney for the aamd has suggested that having a commission would be a good way of trying to get this out of the courts, out of litigation can get employers out of the picture, getting technical defenses out and making decisions on the merits, and i agree with them. >> i have a few questions for robert and then i will turn to some questions. [inaudible] [laughter] >> this is not my typical role but we will try it out. [laughter] >> i was going to ask you how you get interested, that's easy enough to find with mr. google, but did you actually enjoy doing the research and writing? is that your own treasure and? >> yes. it won't come as a surprise to any of you all, i'm very impatient, and guilty as

charged. but i like to see things happen and make things happen, and yet when i am, this is a big asterisk about me being impatient. when i'm with one of these elderly veterans and i had a chance committee usually takes me two or three questions and they know i care, they know -- i'm deeply passionate about this. they will talk for hours and hours and hours, and i will sit there and feel like i have the greatest job in the world having a chance to listen to what their experience is. so oftentimes never shared with anybody else. and i've had a similar experience many cases with spouses, deceased monuments officers, some of the monuments officers we found in one particular case a woman who got married and we annoyed want her last name was, her married name so we didn't have to find her. it's a joyous, joyce process and it's allowed us to tell the story in a way that a don't think it's been told everything

this is part of why it's resonating with you all. this is a stuart were sitting and talking about works of art and this is important. when we say works of art, library books, jewelry, tapestries, stained glass, paintings, drawings, a whole spectrum of the art. but we are really, it's a people story. why did these men and women who had life made risked their lives to walk away from established careers and families and kids and the risk their lives in combat to do something that was a necessary going to benefit of the united states is going to benefit civilization. we haven't seen anybody do that in wars before. that's the seachange that we've never do anything like that since. from top to bottom to prevent cultural -- who have the absolute best intentions and good training, but what we had

in one or two that made it work is leaders doing only what leaders can do and that's leading. president roosevelt decided this is an important idea and endorser general eisenhower issued historic orders that empowered these men and women to go do their job. we haven't had any leaders do that since world war ii on a public basis about respecting cultural treasures. that's what we need to have happened today. i agree with things that stuart said that agree with things that nancy have said. museums can become easy scapegoats, and i spoke to the american association of museum director earlier this year and i made the comment to them, it is not okay to have a 40 or $50 million museum budget and then leap out of of being able to afford proper researchers. you can do the trick on the other hand, it's easy to pick on me since i say why haven't you done this and why would you done it faster? the research work is very

complicated and there are not millions of researchers out there floating around. and this issue that stuart has raised our questions that we'll have to debate today and it becomes more competent when we go to europe and jeff statute of limitations in fairest countries over there that we to be revisited. but i submit that the best place to adjudicate this is in the most powerful court in the world and that's the court of public opinion. and i can't unless the public opinion unless you all know the story and it's been my effort to try and tell the story, i'm not a trained art historian or write or anything. i just did and passion about this for some 15 or 16 years, the last 13 full-time. i want to let you all have the chance to love these men and women as i have by no investor in knowing what they did and why what they did is so important to the treasures we have today and why these efforts to honor them with congressional gold medals

which is before the house and senate today. and the work of the monuments men foundation with our toll-free number, which george clinton and others have been very supportive of, to ask the public for their help, if you have a veteran wh who brought something up as a summit or took it, i don't care how it got back, come forward to no one has ever asked the public before. no one has had a chance to do it like this. that's the effort that i am undertaking and that the monuments men foundation is building on the early work by michael kurtz to study and write about the money spent as part of his dissertation, on the work of, to help explain the understanding than in saluting, the work of nancy trying to find people, a fancy word for who owned it before you. that's it. we talk in these complicated terms but there it is. you want to know when you buy your home that you own a clear

title to don't and who owned it before, that's what that is. and the work of stuart and his team at state department and others that has been trying to bring worldwide visibility to this through legislative and through the formal judicial system. but i said that the people of been left out of the discussion are people like me don't have any academic training about the history of this, about the legal terms, about art historian. we just like art, we like great stories and we believe that no passage of time should change the character of is that the sun is so w that we can identify who the owner is we should give it back. [applause] >> as i said before we can spend days talking about the past, present and future of this top topic. but i would like to thank the panelists for coming out tonight

and i also like to thank our boss, the archivist of the united states for not only his presence but for his interest in the records of the monuments men and the work of the monuments men. we are lucky to have a boss that has an interest, a subject we have an interest in. i can direct you to microphones on either side if you have questions. >> yes. you brought out, we knew that after the second world war murder was a great atrocity of the germans. first major trial that everybody saw in the world what happened with a number of trials, did anyone discuss these issues that have that number of trial, murders -- there were people there who certainly gearing and others stole and was that brought out to the world? >> yes, it was.

the work of the looting investigation unit was critical. actually grew so did the volume on deering's work actually interrogated him while he was at nuremberg, and so a lot of the documents that were entered into evidence in nuremberg as a related to the art theft and so forth came from the work of this unit and it can really from their research and they went to the german file and located documents and have them verified by these various interrogations that they did. and the actual even brought some of these second tier nazis to nuremberg to give testimony about rosenberg and caring spent what was really most effective was taking the 39 er our album from these photographic album showing you what they taken and really putting them in front of the eight judges and saying here's the evidence spent there

is file footage of the that come from national archives that you can watch that is absolutely riveting. it's all online. you can have access to it. we have at the foundation. >> do we have current monuments men for the wars that are going on recently like iraq and afghanistan? >> we do. we of wel have well intended pen the museums and archaeological community that have advised state department and defense department, and they did so prior to the american-led invasion in iraq in 2003. but for a variety of reasons in my opinion the principal one being the other half of this that has to work which is the leadership from the top, in our country is the ceo, the president of the united states. and well intended -- i say this a politically, i don't care the president or the secretary of defense is, but there was a monuments woman named edith and

93 since it is not enough that we be virtuous, we must also appears a. she understood then the power of appearance. our parents all taught us that. first appearances matter. so we didn't have these monuments officer their because the prioritization of protecting the cultural treasures wasn't there. we protected the oil installations. that was a smart thing to do. you've got to have fuel for your vehicles but we can protect the museums, national archives in iraq, the national library which is not jobs over there were either trying to destroy, flood, damage, and whose problems is that the complex it becomes the american army. it's a big, big problem and so i think what we've got to have today, we sorely need to be training people and we're doing that as people like lori rush and others doing a tremendous job. in the absence of the president of the united states restating in my opinion the words spoken by president roosevelt and

general eisenhower that the united states will respect the cultural treasures of other countries, and that if it comes down to the life of our men and women, or an object, the lives of our men and women would count more. if that doesn't happen, then the best efforts are going to work the way cheape it cheaper hocrid at some point stall and fail. we have people that went over there in 2004 to fix the problems and they did a tremendous job. but which everybody remember for that? to remove what happened in 2003, not what we did in 2004. first impressions matter. so the problem and challenge that issue before us and is a huge part again of our effort, monuments men foundation typicallto ifwe can make sure as around the country know about this, i daresay no political leadethere is going to go into t again and not say with monuments officers? >> i was out of office at the time because the work i've done when we bombed the defense ministry in damascus.

excuse me, in baghdad. [laughter] i wish it had been in damascus. [laughter] spent don't tilt your hand. >> when we did that, the pipes burst and when our troops came in, they found jewish treasures, archival treasures going to hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. and they called me and said, you and your experience, what should we do with the? i said, three things. get it out of the war. get it to the national archives where it can be generated properly, and never return it. two of the three things were done, an agreement was reached with the iraqi government to return this jewish cultural property, which itself was looted, in my opinion, from the jewish community left in the '50s at the formation of israel. that's still a very topical

issue never the congressional senate and so forth. what robert has exposed the still very much a current issue. >> i would like to point out that my wife and/or is went over there and help bring the stuff back and have overseen it ever since. marylin is my wife's mother, she said is a safe over there? it is bobby safer there than you. but anyway, yes, ma'am. >> ambassador, as you know, germany is considering changing their 30 year statute in light of the case of the man with all prices are from his father and he looks -- it looks like he may be able to legally change. do you think 69 years after the end of the war that there will be a way for these countries that have these statute of

limitations to end those statute of limitations the? upgrade question. first of all, with a really minor disagreement nazi and i -- nancy and i have a judgment about whether they should be a commission or not, the amount of looted art in the united states is minimal, very, very minimal. great amounts are in europe, in germany and in particular in russia which has the greatest treasure trove of looted nazi part. they passed a law after the washington principles which said we are going to give our so-called trophy art to babel in effect the war lost, contrary again to our policy and the monuments men, but we are willing to return that art which the red army took, and then turned which had been taken by the nazis from jews. the never implement it. so the real focus needs to be on your.

on the question on your case, it's an incredible case. switzerland to munich, comes to the border, he's asked if he has anything to declare. he said well, i have 9500 euros in cash and they say, where did you get 9500 euros in cash? he said i sold a piece of art. really? they look in his apartment and there are 1200 pieces of art with some having empty cases that indicated he had sold it, and to make a long story short, it turns out that a lot of it was, in fact, nazi looted art. so initially the germans were treating it as a tax evasion case. the guy salter, didn't report his taxes and we intervened, we, the state department intervened, based on the washington principles. based again on what you've done as well, what michael has done, the work nancy has done. and we said this is not just a tax evasion case.

look at the washington principles and published the art which initially they wouldn't do that now, to their great credit, about 450 pieces have been published on the internet so claims community. within the issue is, the question you asked, statute of limitations. i can't guarantee this is going to happen but we urged the tactical defensive not be used. that's what i feel so strongly, and they are seriously considering in effect creating a new law that would waive the statute of limitations. whether they would do it or not still remains to be seen that they have publicly indicated they are looking at it and it would be a wonderful thing and it would be constant with the washington principles. so this story just never end. it never ends. >> let me say about this, that i hate to predict the future, it's a perilous thing to do, but i

believe we will see changes and i believe the principal reason is that the public, the court of public opinion is not going to no what the heck everybody is talking about. it's been stuck with legislators and lawyers debating this thing and using fancy terms, and the general public doesn't know what they're talking about so you have something like the case they the front page of of the newspapers around the world and there's a good and have euro trove of pictures now. you guys help me out on this. is a billion and a half euros assigned to this value. no one has seen the works of art. known as a list of the works but yet somebody has defined a billion and half years. i'm happy because now everybody in the world is paying attention for the moment and is worth hundreds of millions? probably but we don't have the information. to be able to go through and determine exactly what values are. it's a complicated case, a hairball of the case but i think this. i think people around the world a lease in the western countries

are governed by laws. and for the most part people i think feel what i said earlier. the passage of time makes it okay for somebody to keep something including german museums it was stolen we can identify who it belongs to. if we can massage this process by making sure that legislators in germany and others, when we were at the berlin film festival last week we were with the german called to minister for 30 minutes. we were her favorite people and especially monuments officer. if they realized that the voting public not understand the story and it's not just a big, big discovery but it's the whole theft unfolding in slow motion, and i did you get the google alerts like we all do, there is discovers like this in the paper every single day. not that dramatic but they are out there. it's all the same story. the public doesn't know what the story is. the egregious case, an 80 year-old guy, it's complicated tax evasion, et cetera.

this film is not going to reach a worldwide audience in a way that none of us can ever get out and tell it. either adjustments to destroy? yesterday by the principles of what took place accurate? yesterday that people love a chance to look at the case and understand this doesn't seem right that we in berlin made such efforts to discuss and be open about all the things that happen in nazi germany and in berlin particular. everywhere you go there's a museum built to discuss it. there's a sign of something that would be built and yet that same transparency hasn't been evident in how museums and other countries approach discussed in these works of art. but if the public that goes to these new scenes and elects these politicians now knows about this and all the politicians who see movies, too. now the game has changed the that everybody can participate in this discussion. now instead of having legislatures legislate the statute of limitation, now the public and express their view. if i'm right and people around the world for the most part

people of good will feel it's not okay to keep things just because there's been a passage of time, we will see these laws change because it's the right thing to do. >> his father was admittedly in defense for the germans but he was given art back to take to switzerland and other neutral countries, get hard currency and return. he kept some for himself. but what's fascinating is after the war he convinced the allies that he was a victim of the nazis, no not a nazi and so can they be allowed some juice to get out by selling some of art, and this is not his son who has it and he kept this 1200 pieces in a dusty room in munich with trash anything around. it's an incredible story. >> we have five people to ask questions and we have four minutes. please be my guest. >> we discussed europe a lot with similar action taken to preserve art in asian?

>> yes, there were a handful of monuments officers, of course the problem, well, there are some british monuments officers or uk we should say transit to work in southeast asia but we're talking about maybe five or less. and then about five or six, five or six i would say, michael, that work in japan but, of course, they can't get there until after a war is over. so it becomes a very different kind of operation whereas the american and british effort in western europe is about trying to preserve works of art and affect temperate repairs but in japan battle effort has to be skipped as a result of the dropping of the two atomic bom bombs. >> i want to raise the question of providence with regard to berlin, specifically the art museum in berlin which is one of the easiest things in the world to go through room after room, thousands of works of art. there is no providence attached

if those works of art. it is just artist title, that's it. you don't know if they came from the prussian state. you don't know which state or municipal government it came from. you don't know anything. and that's the principal art historical museum of germany. it is very, very weird. comment? >> let me just contrast that with france. france had the so-called collection which was essentially looted jewish art that they really made minimal efforts to locate the owners. but to their credit much more recently and after the washington principles what they did with their art is they signed it so they would say, for example, in fact it was a question of whether the jewish community should claim that hard and have a museum of their own. and they said no, it belongs to the french state.

but what we want and what they got was some history of what happened. and it may say i'm an unknown jewish family there is at least someone who sees it 100 years from now will say gee, you know, what was that all about and will start looking at it. so this -- it is very important even when art is so-called errorless art to identify where it came from. to the credit, the germans -- errorless art. have a wonderful process. there are 40,000 so-called i think called little risers outside the apartments of jews who were expelled with the names and dates, and it's raised about one inch above the sidewalk so when you're walking you have to look down or you will trip. this is all over the country and its a way of saying this should be done again in the museums, that a jewish family was expelled from your and it's again a way of teaching lessons for the future.

>> i will bet that there are actual websites that the german government have put together from which they put up information, objects with missing information at also objects lost from german museums. so there is information out there in a published would get on the internet or in books, whether they labor in the galleries i really can't speak about. >> i really hate to cut off the questioning at this point -- >> no, nobody wants to. >> how much time do we have? [inaudible] >> ten minutes, great. yes, ma'am. >> i noticed in the book aside from rose valland you very rarely mention the monuments women at all. so i was just wondering why you haven't told their story as well as the men? [laughter] >> i haven't been busy enough.

[laughter] the women played an important role. however, during these times the women worked in combat. and so the effort of the women, it plays a role more behind the scenes helping assemble the maps which were used for outlined pilots. some of the early intelligence work, an important curator for joseph widener this collection is one of the early collections to come into the national gallery of art. they play and the story really comes into focus at the conclusion of the war, with integral role that they played at the clicking point helping get those set up and then sorting process for restitution. my three books, the first book i wrote, risking da vinci come loose the name of all these people but it's not really a

narrative story. and the two books that followed, "the monuments men" and "saving italy" tell the story from the origination of the idea and in the case of "saving italy," discussing a lot of historical background of the creation of art and preservation officers going back to germany in world war i, up and to the end of the war of 1945. the answer is not yet. but i'm not unaware of it and it's on my list of things to do. >> i would say that my colleague sylvia, could you raise your hand? will have a blog either tomorrow or friday on giuliana bundgaard, a monuments woman. i'm looking forward to reading that. >> we found one of them in 2009, my labor day was spent at a va hospital in boston in the event of a that we found it was a

remarkable woman, bronze star recipient, and just a tremendous, tremendous women. we had a great express with her commenters is historic that you all will have a chance to know about in the time ahead. >> a member of the audience raised a point about why were there not monuments men now? there are. every site under the arm is still others. there was a plan to see the artifacts unfortunate not implemented but -- efforts were also undertaken by colonel tim and his men to save the treasures of iraq in a city stinking of sewage or an army civil affairs also moved to say the treasures of modern iraq as well as the treasures of a dynasty. ambassador might like to know the there was also ceramic ancient art in the museum that

donny george who headed the artifacts in that country was forced to flee for his life when the assassins got loose but, unfortunately, he died in the boston airport. but the army is still interest in preserving the artifacts wherever we go. thank you spent one thing if the iraqi government had shown any interest in actually maintaining and portraying these treasures, but keeping it in the basement of the defense ministry, what are they going to do if they get it back? >> go ahead. >> i just want to point out every one feels like they're sitting on a gold mine tonight, they really are. i'm steve katz, 1985, two elderly jewish german came into the congressional office of the late congressman, they told a story of austria having thousands of still looted artwork and other cultural property in the government buildings and museums.

and they key to their story was about, did you know, congressman, about all the captured german war records that are in the national archives? i was a young staffer. he sent me over to what was then the collection incitement, but not for michael kurtz, and schmidt, the fine work of the archives, we would never have forced the austrians into a restitution plan. to the point about legislatures, we need them in good democracy. we need to make them better in bad democracies. in austria they vitiated all the laws of the property. we had to get them re-created. the list i came out were frightening in terms of the pressure it took to bring this about. we had a jewish ambassador at the time indiana. he wouldn't lift a finger. people don't want to get involved. so we need champions, but for the national archives, let me tell you, folks, these champions couldn't make the case.

of the records i went through before greg's findings that was created, we have international archives are the blueprints for it was museum. when you see that it's pretty frightening. for his birthday, and maybe robert can confirm this, hitler would actually produce for college brochures about the size of the reader's digest of his favorite looted art in and he would send this to the front lines of his troops. so i want to government the archives, and maybe michael, if he has a second, how do the archives get all this stuff? it includes all the captured german war records mobile salt mines that hitler had the stuffing. and briefly -- >> and all the documents of the first detectives on the scene who didn't understand at the time -- >> it is due to the national archives that we know this. >> back in the late 1990s ambassador eizenstat, i don't recall this but he asked me for some report you are producing

compound pages of material do you have? and i said, 10 million? sounds like a good number. but actually i think i probably underestimated as we uncover more and more material but i think it was created, and receive from our enemies. yes, ma'am. [inaudible] >> you want to respond? >> very briefly. the national archives was the inheritor of the records that was seized by the army. the army or the process of many years and then the national architect of the project, microfilmed the captured german records in order to preserve them. and eventually we restitution records that were sent to microfilmed to germany. and so we kept all the records of the united states army as it relates to all the functions of

combat and postwar operations. and so when i started my research in 1979, there was no google. [laughter] there was no greg -- there was greg but not very helpful. but now one of the things i like to mention also is the united states, the national archives i should say, following up on what ambassador eizenstat is trying to achieve with the washington principles has established and created an international research portal for nazi a room property and it's a treasure my. if you're trying to trace a work of art, you will be able to study what's available online. if you're doing research or you are a historian and due to the work of the national archives, the rn now 19 of the national

archives and institutions around the world in europe i should say that participate in this. so you can do a great deal of research that would've been absolutely physically impossible prior to say five continues ago. >> passport and the right of the national archives and see, i kid you not, these documents, these photographs. it's one of the great privileges of being a citizen to go out there and see the labor us only people that work after assembling these things and making them available, whether it's your day off or whether you didn't research. it's an extraordinary opportunity for everybody spent i think i will let ambassador eizenstat make some closing remarks, at which point we will adjourn to where robert will be signing copies of his book. susan, does that sound like a good plan? i'm sorry that we didn't get to you, but perhaps you can address

one of us afterwards. ambassador eizenstat. >> i can say on a personal note that we should all be very proud to be americans, because what the national archives has as a great resource, what robert disclosed about the hair wasn't of the monuments men, what it didn't streets about the determination of u.s of his armh after all in 43 a war was hardly one. i mean, it was hardly one. normandie hadn't even occurred to him we are in the midst of a cataclysmic battle, and general eisenhower takes it upon himself to issue this kind of the directive. these men and women risked their lives because they think the art is so important. and it's that spirit that we need to get back to to continue

the momentum. that would be the real tribute. i would say also that one wished -- have the effort was put into saving the jews of europe we might not have had quite as cataclysmic outcome but that should not anyway detract from this remarkable, a rogue story. and again, only the united states of america could have taken this upon itself in the midst of a war, and it's a great tribute to the country. it's a great to get to the archives at this and did a great tribute to robert for having brought this to us. [applause] >> well, thank you for coming, and we will see you outside. [applause]

[inaudible conversations] >> that if it was held this past week and joining us here in our studio at booktv is the author of "the monuments men," robert edsel. how did you get started in this business? >> it wasn't my third career. i had moved to florida. i've been living there in 1996 and start studying art and architecture there. what better place in the world to do it? i walked upon the effect you one day and wondered how someone of the works of art and cultural treasures survived in the destructive conflict in history and with the people that saved it? i didn't know the answer and i t wasn't embarrassed by that but i was embarrassed it never occurred to me to wonder but i started asking friends mike and europe and they said that's a great question.

what's the answer? i said julie there, you should know. it was all this way just out of curiosity. i couldn't of course see at the beginning having three books about. now a feature film, et cetera, the monuments men foundation continuing the work but it's been an incredible privilege for me to represent these remarkable heroes, five of whom are still living and it's been an amazing experience spent why did you move to florence? >> i sold my business. ..

i had the determination to be a professional tennis player. i had some qualifying tournaments and had some success, but i came to the conclusion i couldn't be great, and that was important to me, so i had to let go of it. it was a very, very difficult thing to do, but it helped me in ways i couldn't foresee at the time when i was thinking about selling my oil and gas exploration basis, that was difficult too. i'd done it once before or and survive ised that, so it was a great enthusiasm of mine to be able to go take some time off and learn about things i didn't know about. >> host: where'd you grow up? >> guest: i was born in oak park, illinois, but i spent most of my time if dallas. my parents are from oklahoma, but moved to dallas in 1960. i was educated there, went to several different colleges and, ultimately, built my business career working out of dallas. >> host: when did you get interested in art and history? >> guest: i've always been interested in history, but i

really didn't know much about art. my parents were able to take us on some trips and exposed us to going to museums just as tourists, and i was always interested in seeing these things. i didn't understand anything about them other than i thought one was pretty or one wasn't. spent some time walking through churches, but as i started traveling more as a adult and then once with i became married, i had more interest in these things. again, not really understanding what i was looking at. but for me, i wasn't interested in trying to understand it through reading books. i learn best outside a class room. very tactile. so when i was in florence, a lot of american universities there. i hired an american professor to take me around the city one day a week and show me these things through her eyes. i want to see what, i want to learn about these things in a very, very hands-on way. and it was a great, great experience to understand how sculpture moves, why churches that both appear to be the same,

one's more important than the other. and, of course, i'd say europe was my classroom, and florence was my school. and it really was an extraordinary opportunity. >> host: robert edsel, is there a dollar figure that you can put on the art that was stolen by the nazis? >> guest: it's as high as you want to make it. we really get into an exercise of futility trying to put numbers on it, you know? do we approach a trillion? we might when we think about paintings today, some paintings selling for $150 million, $200 million. we have to ask what would happen if a leonardo da vinci could be sold. i'm here we're in the $250-$300 million range. you start to think that in some of these salt mines and castles, these monuments officers were finding 20,000 paintings, hundreds of thousands of ancient library books and libraries, so the numbers just get to be staggering. >> host: how much is still

missing? >> guest: here, again, this becomes an exercise in numbers. a lot of people like to, i think, deal with numbers that are just so large i think it makes it harder for the public to understand. a number that i use is hundreds of thousands of cultural objects including works of art. but, you know, the nazis stole anything that had any value to it, so we're talk talking about tapestries, drawings, important books, documents. in poland alone they have some 60,000 specific works of art that are on their missing database. when we say a few hundred thousand, that's not a random number that's just picked out of the sky. some people use in the millions of numbers, and it's just hard to tell. >> host: 202 is the area code if you would like to talk with robert edsel. 585-3880 in the east and central time zones, 525-3881 in the mountain and pacific zones.

contact us @booktv is our twitter handle, send an e-mail to booktv@cellc-span.org. facebook.com/booktv. we're going to begin with a call from bernie in howard beach, new york. bernie, you on with robert -- you're on with robert edsel. >> caller: good morning, mr. edsel. i read the rape of europa, and in it they talk about lincoln -- [inaudible] going over before the war to buy the. i believe it was before '39 and germany or in sweden. can you tell me something about it? what happened? what did he buy? >> one of the great things i've learned in the course of my work is to speak passionately about the things i know about and be

quick to say i don't know that, and in this case i can't help you on that one. >> host: did the nazis take great care with this art, or were they careless? >> guest: i think you have a whole range of things. in the earlier days when they're in control of things, i think there was some degree of care being shown for works of art for hitler's collection, certainly the things that were intended for gering's collection. but when the mass removals of works of art from people's homes in the east where things -- homes are destroyed, the cities are razed, no, i don't think there's care there. and, of course, in the west as jews' apartments are looted en masse, no, these things are piled up. i think there's -- it's one of the paradoxes of the war that a lot of these works of art survived because of a result of having been stolen and hidden in castles that were off the way of allied bombing, they survived. so there are a lot of

dislocations and paradoxes in the telling of the story. that's just one of them. >> host: andy, kensington, maryland. hi, andy. >> caller: hi. so thank you for all the great work that you've done. my question has to do with the national gallery of art, and i bereave they currently -- believe they currently have an exhibit that's, you know, timed to coincide with the movie. but for about 15 years or so is, i've been really troubled with the national l gallery of art because it turns out that back in the 1980s they put on an exhibition of artworks on loan that included some artworks that had been looted by the nazis. and this was a collection of art of impressionist paintings by the swiss industrialist emil buehler. and once this came out, the national gallery never addressed it. it has never apologized, and it's just sort of like, you know, buried its head in the

sand like an ostrich. and so now they are claiming to be so concerned about this issue, but my question to you is, number one, are you familiar with that issue, and number two, do you have any suggestions in terms of pressure that might be applied to have them, you know, address this issue? all they have to do is apologize -- >> host: all right, andy, we got the point. robert edsel. >> guest: i don't know about the specific exhibit you're talking about, but this is a long time ago now. the issue of providence, which is a fancy way of saying who's owned it previously, is something that really has come into fore now since the late 1990s, and i think it -- i don't really see any point in trying to go back and scold the national gallery or any other galleries for things that might have happened in the 1980s concerning the decision about works of art that are being shown. i don't think that would happen today, and i think that we should focus on going forward i

trying to solve some of the problems that we can fix. and that's really what the work of the monuments men foundation is on a go-forward basis. >> host: stephen hall offal corn state university tweets in, wonderful presentation. my history students at alcorn state are assigned to watch the movie. what do you think of the movie? >> guest: i think the movie's fantastic in this respect: or it's a hugely challenging subject. it hasn't been tackled on the big screen before, a major story about world war ii that we haven't seen on the big screen. it's a daunting task. it covers a wide geographical scope, a large amount of time. these officers never really were in one place together, so there have to be adjustments to the story, but i think george clooney and grant his love did a good job, and as i write about in "monuments men," people are going to know this is an american and british-led operation, it had not been done before on this scale, there was historic issue that paved if way

for this to happen. the policy of the western allies is to return them, the monuments officers risked their lives or were killed during combat. it's an incredibly noble and upbeat story about world war ii, and if someone wants to know the details and more about the people, it's all there in my book. >> guest: monumentsmen foundation.org has biographies on each one of the 350 or so monuments men and women from 13 nations. we have a lot of photographs that we have some that are in rescuing da vinci, my first book, but a lot of information that we couldn't include in the various books i've written. >> host: two events, both at the white house this past week. you were at the white house for a screening, right? >> guest: yeah. we were invited, george clooney and grant were kind enough to include not only me, but most importantly, harry etlinger, 88

years old from rockaway, new jersey, and we were invited to a private screening on tuesday. president obama made a point of having the time for a visit with us, and it was a great opportunity for harry et linger. he's one of the few people that's been to the white house twice under two sitting presidents. >> host: next call for robert edsel comes from are martha in charleston, south carolina. i think this is probably martha barclay, isn't it? >> caller: oh, good morning, peter. >> host: how are you, martha? >> caller: i'm fine. thank you for your work with c-span. because of c-span, of course, i ran out and bought edsel's, robert edsel's book years ago when you had his work on c-span. and you've kind of stolen my thunder, peter, you've asked about the priceless -- well, the cost and the value of art. i mean, it's definitely priceless just as life is

priceless. and the movie, of course, portrayed the two lives lost. i imagine there were more lives lost. have to go back and check my books. my question to robert edsel, thank you for your work. since the age of 39, i think it's marvelous. i kind of had the feeling that movie was like a fraternity party sphere. even -- atmosphere. even though the locations and the artwork, it was of just superb. i'm so glad the story is out, maybe because of of the movie. but i wanted to know the rest of the story at rugges, if you could tell that. >> guest: the rest of the story what? >> caller: at brugges. >> guest: about the madonna? >> caller: yes. >> guest: well, that's the only sculpture my michelangelo to leave italy during his lifetime, and it was one of the focus pieces the nazis stole in

september of 1944. it's such an illustrated situation because human nature you'd figure a few weeks down the road the nazis would turn to save their lives. no, there's still some things that haven't been acquired yet. and there's a group of nazis that go the church in brugges, and it was the same mattress that george stout found it in in the salt mine in austria the following year. it's ultimately taken to the salt mine where the monuments officers find it, but it was one of the key pieces that officer ron ballford was trying to find when he was killed in march of 1945. one of the two officers killed. >> host: good morning, texas, you're on with robert edsel. >> caller: yes. i can't wait to see your movie, but i was going to ask you, i saw a movie years ago with burt

lancaster called "the train," and it was all about them trying to to get the stolen art from the germans. i wonder if that was kind of based on the same thing you're talking about? >> guest: it's a much smaller story. it's a fine, fine film. this is a film based on the great french herr wynn's book, "the war against art," and rose is a remarkable woman. in fact, we've recently translated a wonderful book that's been written about her that's out there. just to focus on her story. i've written a short introduction to it which is available on e-book. but rose is this woman who works in the museum about halfway between the louvre and the palace that la concord and worked under the united states states -- the eyes of the nazis.

she's making secret notes and digging through trash cans, ultimately, she turned over to an officer really a treasure map to go find these things. the story that's told in "the train," very, very briefly, i mean, in a matter of a few minutes, introduces rose, and then it really becomes a tete-a-tete between the french resistance and this fictitious german character trying to get the works of art on the last train back into germany. in fact, this last train never leaves paris, it just goes in a circle around and around the center of the city. but, you know, it's a fun movie, and it certainly raises a few of the same issues. >> host: prior to the german invasion of these european nations, did they take steps to protect their art? >> guest: yeah, and, in fact, i try and mention this in all three of my books, "saving italy," i spend a lot of tomb talking about the art superintendents and volunteers in all these cities.

in "saving italy" the book really begins to one scene we loaned to the film about the near destruction of "the last supper" by allied bombing, and had it not been for the protective measures taken in 1940 just on the what-if chance that a bomb might fall somewhere near the dining hall containing this, then we wouldn't have any da vinci code. we'd all know about "the last supper" from art u.s.ly books because it would have been obliterated. a ball blasts out the east wall of the dining hall, and the painting's exposed to the elements for almost two years, only saved because there was scaffolding and poles bracing the wall. so this is a miraculous near disaster that this masterpiece of western civilization was almost lost by bombing on our side. >> host: what about the louvre? was it pretty much and did it stay intact? >> guest: well, the building did, but the french artificials

knowing -- knowing the invasion of poland bins -- begins, they start the evacuation of works of art taken to french chateaus out in the countryside. this was the standard procedure. it happened in florence, removal of works to some 38 tuscan villas. the great concern was bombing by the allies destroying the museums or other cultural treasures inside the cities. the problem gets stickier once the allied invasions begin in particular in italy and sicily and nap ls. because in the case of florence, the museum officials didn't have the vehicles. the nazis had confiscated them. they couldn't get them from the villas back into the city, and there they are safe from allied bombing, but in the middle of ground warfare. it was a perilous situation, and ultimately, the removal by iss forces taking these things on the basis they were supposedly

safeguarding them. >> host: susan is calling from springfield, missouri. you're on booktv on c-span2. >> caller: hi. thank you guys for being there. my question is about, like, christian art? forgive me, i haven't had a chance to read your book, so i'm new to all this. but i just wonder especially in iraq and places where there might be more religious, you know, type p artifacts and so forth, if they were destroyed on purpose because of obvious reasons that people don't want the world to know that anything else exists besides what they believe in. i just wondered if your research has, you know, turned up anything about those kinds of issues. >> guest: well, one of the things that the monuments men foundation is doing, we're, of course, trying to raise worldwide visibility. that's why the george clooney film is so important, because no book can accomplish what this film can do. it's going to be opening in some

100 countries around the world. so that's a great chance for people not only to know the story of the monuments men, but also to know the heroic role that the united states-led effort played in saving some of these things. this isn't religious art versus christian art, islamic art, it's not really segregated that way. adolf hitler and the nazis feel anything of value, sometimes jewish collectors who collected the great things that were available to be acquired. the monuments officer, likewise, rescued whatever had been stolen or head the attempt to do that. in iraq the great tragedy for our country was followed in the aftermath of the looting of the national museum and the other cultural treasures there. we did not make protection of the cultural treasures if iraq in 2003 -- in iraq in 2003 following the invasion a target. we paid a horrible price in the court of world opinion, and it's one of the works of the monuments men foundation to

reestablish that high standard. we need, ultimately, the president of the united states who's our ceo of the enterprise, of the country, to come forward and restate what general eisenhower did: protection and respect for the works of art of other people is important, and that's the policy of the united states. >> host: brian perry tweets in to you, mr. edsel," the monuments men" movie was fun, but is there an in-depth documentary in the works? >> guest: we're having discussions about that. we worked with national geographic and fox to make a one-hour documentary which show inside conjunction with the are release of the film and also in europe. it's, obviously, a big story. it's, you know, up until this point in time it hasn't been told for a variety of reasons. it's taken years of my effort to get these three books written and more books forthcoming in the future. so i hope that we'll have a chance to do that. i hope what we see is a feature film on "saving italy." it's a remarkable story, and it's a very different kind of

problem, because italy is a partner of nazi germany the first three years of the or war. and it presents all sorts of different problems and a completely different cast of officers. >> host: we just showed the covers, but i want to ask about "saving italy." what is this photograph on the cover? >> guest: it's a remarkable photograph we found pretty well into our research of the david, certainly one of the three most well known works of art. and you think about the story between the mona lisa and the louvre which is moved on fife separate occasions -- five separate occasions, "the last supper" and david. i mean, the three most famous works of art are at ground zero of the story. the david couldn't be moved out of the academia because of the size and weight, so the local art officials entombed it in brick.

the great concern that the ceiling would collapse and destroy the david. dean keller is arriving into the academia, he's standing there watching as the local officials are removing the brick to expose the david for the first time in republican three years. >> host: and on the cover of rescuing da vinci -- >> guest: yeah, here again we see another masterpiece by leonardo da vinci that is, you know, it's funny, we think of photo ops as a modern-day invention. here's a great example of 1945 -- 1946, actually, the monuments officers are standing in front of a train outdoors holding in this painting with their bare hands. they've removed it from the crate. it's one painting on one train car of about 26 train cars filled with stolen works of art from poland, and they're returning it. they've just now arrived in warsaw to get this painting back at the charter rescue museum. >> host: matthew in tacoma, washington, you are on with robert edsel.

>> caller: hi. i was wondering if you found much out about the porcelain factories, the great porcelain factories in your book, in france especially and then also the -- [inaudible] factories in germany, if much of that was destroyed? also i was wondering who your favorite tennis player is and who you prefer, fellowederer or nadal? >> guest: what was the last part? >> host: didn't catch the last part. but if you want to answer the tennis question, more importantly. >> guest: with the things that are missing today, we have to deal in the done text of what's portable and what's not and also degree of fragility. works of art that were porcelain, so many of those things destroyed, coins melted. if a painting rolled up weighed 200 pounds, you know, one person's not lugging that around. so most of the things we're going to find are going to be things which a soldier could take home as a souvenir, put under their jacket, ship home. those are the things i think

we'll see more and more of. favorite tennis player ever, rob labor, a great friend. really remarkable guy. >> host: he was a lefty. >> guest: he was. he was a role model for me about the importance of hard work and discipline. >> host: glenn, waldwick, new jersey. please go ahead with your question or comment. >> caller: hi. thank you, c-span, for having me on. in the last segment, there was discussion of creating a commission perhaps to oversee the issues of the politics and all the other problems that occur when -- [inaudible] what are your thoughts, mr. edsel, on the creation of such a commission and who should be on it, how should it function with authority, should it be given that kind of thing? i'll hang up for your answer, thank you. >> guest: well, that a presumes i agree we should have one without, you know, before getting into all the details and how it should be set up. you know, this idea of having

kind of a master commission to oversee some of the restitution issues has been kicked around. it's a complicated issue. i don't know that that's the best solution. what i believe is the approach we should be taking is to raise awareness about this, because i think this story has been stuck with art historians and some scholars, and it hasn't been available to the broad public in a way that's been accessible to everybody. and i've tried to write about it the way i learned about it. i didn't have any background or training on it, but i spent a lot of years studying it, a lot of years interviewing some 17 monuments officers and maybe a hundred of their kids over the course of time, finding letters they'd written home during the war, many of which we'd not seen. i reallity that the court of public opinion, that's the most powerful court in the world, and that is the one that i think is going to carry the day in reestablishing the standards. because people in government and in the state department k

defense department, they pay attention to what voters know. voters go see movie, read books and, of course, legislators read books too. and i think as we understand more about story, i believe that the answer in many ways is simple. there's no passage of time that should change the character of a theft. that's the law in the united states. if we can determine there's a work that belongs to somebody and it was stolen from them, i don't think that it should matter it's 60 years it's taken us to find that out. it should be returned, and that, i think, is the law in the united states. there have been efforts to make modifications, but i think that's what we need to get back to. >> host: if you can't get through on the phone line, contact us via social media. @booktv is our twitter handle, facebook.com/booktv or ap e-mail, booktv@cspan.org. and from our facebook page is this question from girish, and i apologize if i've mispronounced that name. question for mr. edsel: while we

all agree stolen art should be returned, how far back in history should we go? for instance, should the elgin stones returned to greece and the peacock throne returned to india? also how do you respond to the argument that taking the rosetta stone protected it from local thieves or just neglect? >> guest: i new that's a great question. my view is that it's a slippery slope when we start going back before world war ii and start reevaluating how things have shown up in different museums. i think we can proud about the fact, for instance, here at the national gal ru of art here in washington the works of art have either been donated or acquired through funds donated to the national gallery, and there is no war art there, war -- art that's come in as a result of the united states fighting a war somewhere. but the united states is a much younger country. we know in england, in france works of art in the louver, works of art and the v and a in

london, many of these things were acquired through conquest in more colonial times. 1945, in my way of thinking, is really a sea change going forward. there is a unesco law of 1970 that prohibits the removal of cultural objects from countries without permits and that kind of thing, but i really think 1945 is when de facto that all begins. because western allies have under their control five million cultural objects that they have found in salt mines and caves and castles, five million. about a million of which belong to german museums or german collectors, the german museums or damaged or destroyed, so the united states and great britain forces are custodians of these works of art until they can rebuilt. the four million objects that are stolen are returned to various countries. that's a sea change of how wars have been bought before. but i think it's also the beginning of the end of colonialism. the suez canal changes hands, many of the black african

countries start to gain independence. and i think from 1945 on we know it's not okay to go into countries and remove works of art. that's what a portion of that war was fought about. but to try and go back and rewind the tapes and look at the bust offer iftity or these other things, i think it's a complicated problem. i know these are deeply emotional top you cans. i lived in europe for five years, and i know people around the world how emotive they get in discussing these topics. and do i do think there should be discussions between these countries, perhaps loan arrangements worked out. but i think some legislation to address this thing is a mistake. >> host: wilhelm asks via facebook: when the nazis stole the artworks, who became the new owner? the goth, individual nazis or the community? are there transfer titles? >> guest: no, there aren't really transfer titles. look, the nazis went to extraordinary lengths to try and make all of their looting legal. they were very, very

conscientious about that in some of the countries of the west. adolf hitler having agents that are making acquisitions of works of art, often times distressed sales. of course, there's things that are just out and out stolen, but there was an effort to try and pass laws that stripped jews as an example of their ownership rights to try and, again, make these things look legal. it was a preposterous argument made by alfred rosenberg, one of the chief defendants at the nuremberg trials that we went into these jews' apartments, some 77,000, and nobody was will, so we just took the works of art to safe them. of course not, they'd loaded them up on trains and sent them to concentration camps. these are really hard to imagine events when we read these documents that people keep a straight face and say these things in a courtroom, but they did. so i think that you're not going to find record title or something to document the