[inaudible conversations] up next on book tv "after words" with guest host rich benjamin senior fellow at demos. this week aram goudsouzian and in his latest book "down to the crossroads" civil rights, black

power and the meredith march against fear. and at the university of memphis for fester tells the story of james meredith the first african-american admitted to the university of mississippi who was shot upon his return to the state to promote voter registration. the ensuing civil rights battle rock the black power movement to the forefront. the program is about an hour. >> host: what a pleasure to be with you today to talk about your book. you know i looked at its cover and i was immediately intrigued by it. some say you can't judge a book i its cover but let's start by judging this book by its cover. tell me about the cover. >> guest: thanks for having me. it was actually quite a struggle to pick the perfect image for the cover. it is a picture from the last day of the march june 26, 1966 as leaders lead the final leg of

the meredith march into jackson mississippi and it was kind of a struggle to pick the right picture because on the one hand we wanted to capture its human element and capture the many people who are part of this long three-week civil rights demonstration that started in memphis and ended in jackson. he wanted to highlight the main leaders and that was martin luther king stokely carmichael and that includes the quixotic man who started the whole thing james meredith. you have to capture all three of those as well as a whole sweep of the march. >> host: let's backtrack a little bit and tell us about the march you were march you are offering two and tell us about the title of the book and how you judge it. >> guest: the title is "down to the crossroads" civil rights, black power and the meredith march against fear and it is a civil rights march that began cement is the beginning of june june 1966 and in those three weeks you could make an argument

that the civil rights movement in many way transforms that it approaches its crossroads. the call for black power was first heard. stokely carmichael unveils back midway through march and immediately generates controversy and immediately generates a great swelling of enthusiasm among many black people and a lot of ways it ignites a new direction in black politics. now those changes might have happened over the course of time. what the meredith march did was sit at dramatized this shift and brought together civil rights leaders and regular people white and black from all across the country and put them into this laboratory of black politics is a moose or mississippi and created all these dramatic moments that highlighted the key divisions and some of the key tensions and the key strengths that have long animated the civil rights movement. >> host: speaking of dramatizing the march a lot of people of my generation

especially like people are parents will say you should be grateful for this. we marched and then we teased them behind their backs because they are always complaining about their bunions that they have got. but take us there. dramatize the march for us for people who weren't there first-hand what was it like this particular march and civil rights marches in general? >> guest: one of the marchers that i interviewed talked about how a status symbol of a real march was ventilated tennis shoes. they walked for so many miles that there were holes in their tennis shoes that you are talking about june in mississippi on a hot open highway such as the physical rigor of being part of this march and marching somewhere between anywhere from eight to 15 miles in a day and there are some diehards that did it for most of those three weeks so if you just want to talk about the physical aspect of it, it could be quite rigorous. now mix that in with camping at

night and mix that in with dealing with the fears of possible attack from hostile whites, mix in the many demonstrations that were held along the way, rallies for voter registration and then mix in some of the violence especially in philadelphia mississippi and canton mississippi and what you got was a whole host of dramatic moments. >> host: in those dramatic moments a lot of folks tend to be familiar with the selma march on edmund pettis bridge but this march in particular how to begin and who were the main -- >> guest: its unique story in the sense that it begins in the mind and actions of one man and that is james meredith. james meredith is famous for integrating mississippi in 1962 the so-called ole miss crisis the first african-american to attend this bastion of white privilege and read to severe resistance from white

authorities and prompted the federal constitution crisis ultimately calling the national guard. there was a great right and -- riot and two people died in meredith spent a year at old myths and graduated and faced incredible hardship under constant protection from federal marshals and much of that began in his mind. he was a very singular individual man. he wasn't someone who associated himself necessarily with the large group but he was determined at the same time to combat what he saw as in institutions of white supremacy. after ole miss meredith drifts off the radar screen. he struggles to find his place. he spent time in washington d.c. and accepts a fellowship to nigeria a three-year fellowship that he abandons. he enrolls in columbia law school buddy has a bye on a larger critical -- political career. he arranges this march is a single man's watch. he sees it as having a number of

goals. one is to encourage people to register to vote in. the voting rights act had been passed the previous year and it was stimulating the beginnings of demonstrademonstra tions in mississippi but for your ordinary black person they realize going to the courthouse in the courthouse and registering the voting casting a ballot can be accompanied by serious danger, lots of credit at all sorts of reprisals. the other aspect of meredith's goal was what he called the walk against fear. he saw the role of voter registration tied into this battle against this culture of fear and he also had a personal ambition beneath that as well. he saw this as a chance to resuscitate his career to build a political following in ultimately run for office in mississippi. it was a new dawn in black politics. on the second day of his watch he had just come through hernando mississippi the first town in mississippi. he gets a nice warm reception from about 150 people there who

said they would register to vote and he tells stories of these old african-american men who had been so intimidated by powerful whites for so long but now standing up and even as hostile whites are glaring at them from across the town square they still support meredith. he sees himself as just beginning to achieve his personal vision for this walk. a few miles south of hernando he is going down this dipping stretch of road and there are mississippi state policeman and highway patrol and local police but none of them stopped a man from jumping out of the woods and shooting james meredith, firing three shots. meredith is wanted in all of a sudden this becomes a huge national story. the march had gotten a little bit of attention for james meredith at as soon as he was shot it was plastered on the

front page of every newspaper in america. it becomes a big rallying cry for the civil rights establishment to pass more civil rights legislation. it causes all sorts of excitement and tension in black neighborhoods throughout the country from the south side chicago to jackson mississippi and memphis tennessee. and what began now as one man's walk has transformed into an extravaganza basically every civil rights organization descends upon memphis determined to carry on the walk through mississippi. >> host: what inspired him to join that had inspired him before? >> guest: everyone saw the original walk as james meredith solitary endeavor. he had not invited participation of those ergen stations. he said you can follow but you have to have this hierarchical pitcher of all you and you have to be independent trade this is the big march that will impose on local communities.

we are we are not going to leave people vulnerable to violence. you have to be all to move in small groups and in a family way this walk is going to work. so it wasn't a a walk that invited mass participation but once ardently for king and the naacp and core and snack and all those organizations come in it becomes, it's almost like a chance to replicate the success of selma. >> host: and meredith did not die, correct? >> guest: meredith was wounded when he was shot there was a misinterpretation and the ap report put out a bulletin that he died in this caused more hysteria as you might imagine but quickly that was dispelled. meredith was wounded and ended up recuperating so there were all these organizations marking marking -- marching in his name. it has a somewhat, he accepts that is occurring and he viewed it on some level as the let's

sing but at the same time he is exceptionally frustrated. he saw this being centered around him as an individual and his ideas for how to combat white supremacy and now it's become a mass march starting with martin of the king and lots of media attention and lots of impact on the world that meredith had been concerned about. >> host: part of what i love about this book is your color will portrait of personalities that are so richly steeped in history personalities that we read about elsewhere but they are presented here. the two that come to mind for me are stokely carmichael and of course martin luther king. what was the participation in the march? >> guest: i think i see james meredith artba the king and stokely -- stokely carmichael is the main characters in for carmichael he sees this as a unique opportunity. he is the new chairman of the

student nonviolent coordinating committee which has always been on the progressive vanguard founded a young students pushing for civil rights establishment in new directions. they are really sort of questioning who they are is an organization and want to take themselves in a new direction. they are exceptionally frustrated with what they see as a slow pace is far as federal reforms. they don't want our legislation. enforce the legislation that's on the books. rather than seeing president lyndon johnson as their ally they tend to see them as their enemy. they don't care anymore about lopping white america. they don't care about repealing to the national conscience. they are much more concerned if developing leaders on a grassroots organization so they don't have to define themselves by the idea of the mass marching. by the same token when meredith gets shot they recognize an opportunity because the march

will be traveling through mississippi. snape had done the most organized march in mississippi particularly in the mississippi delta so they urged a diversion of the march into the mississippi delta and into the larger lack communities. where snake -- so they see this as a chance to create a moving of balding demonstration and at the same time show the direction. out of the comes the slogan of black power. carmichael is a fascinating character. not that he is unknown but it's really what catapults him into celebrity. by the end of the march he is compared to malcolm x in a lot of ways. really the voice of lack radicalism. he has a gift for talking to local people and connecting to so many different audiences whether that's in harlem or the mississippi delta. he is charismatic and powerful

and he is provocative harriet it's almost like he makes a rhetorical point to not appeal to white consciousness even when he is pushed and pushed. he is cleverly stubborn about his concern with uplifting black people and not being seen as appeasing white liberals which are uncertain allies. the best part of the what animates this idea lacked power and the other main character he becomes in some ways the moral center of the march. for king it's not the march. a both a local people who sometimes really want to see martin luther king. it is also what draws more federal attention and national media attention and sncc and stokely carmichael realizes it. we need king for the attention that we want to generate on

this. and king is constantly being pushed in multiple directions. i think this march reveals king somewhat at his most morally powerful because he's constantly trying to on one level articulate the intent of the young militants beebe likes to the carmichael but trying to craft it into a larger lens nonviolent action the integration of america and a larger plea for racial brotherhood and to do so he is constantly using his rhetorical gets to try to merge these messages into something. he's trying to find this unity and it's just a burden. by the end of the march he is worn down and he calls the march a mistake. by the same token without martin luther king -- >> host: why did he call it a mistake lacks. >> guest: is towards the end of the march and he is just gone through fairly extraordinary trials. the marchers had just gone to philadelphia and mississippi and in philadelphia it's june 21,

the two years anniversary of the murder of three civil rights marchers are which was of course the freedom summer of 1964. they lead a demonstration through philadelphia but they see this as a unique political opportunity and they ally with the local leadership. because they are also at the root of the march they get less protection from the state police. the people who are supposed to be protecting them in the march of the local police some of them had been directly involved under federal investigation for the murders two years earlier so we are not talking about sympathetic law enforcement. when they lead the demonstration from philadelphia they are essentially attacked by a mob. people throw insults at them and they throw cherry bombs at king's feed and people think

it's gunshots as they are finishing the rally and marching out the full throw rocks at them. eggs. there is one marcher that has an epileptic seizure and people don't lead the medical truck near him for a while. they sort of mock this man having a seizure in the mist of the march. they could've descended into far worse but luckily they were able to march back into the black community in philadelphia before it got much worse. king later said that was the most scared he had ever been. then he went to ride after that he had to go to gaza city which was where the march congregated back in the delta and by the time he got back there there was a large rally going off. some of the speakers like willie ricks who was a member of sncc and thermos thomas was a speaker for an armed defense organization.

they were using very provocative rhetoric and he was trying to pull it back to the core principles and he gave this beautiful moving speech about how they couldn't get their guns out and couldn't get the molotov tales. he talked about the times in birmingham and selma. it was a beautiful speech but he was so worn down at that point by trying to bring everyone sort of under his wide arms that he wondered if he could still work with these young organizations like sncc. >> host: and what were the other tensions or moments during the march besides the philadelphia episode? >> guest: the other major incidents of violence comes a few days later in canton mississippi. this is just a few days before the end of the march and it's a few days after the philadelphia violence. after the philadelphia violence king and others have petitioned the federal government and had said look the state of

mississippi has not had protection we need a federal presence as it existed in selma. we need protection of u.s. marshals the national guard and the justice department personnel. you name it we need the federal government as an ally and they were essentially ignored at that point. johnson had grown over the past year alienated from the civil rights movement. he had seen urban riots in places like watson and the moynihan report which was a government meant report that stigmatized black families and there was a backlash against that and he was seeing groups like sncc which were known as an enemy rather than an ally said johnston capped his distance from grassrootgrassroot s organizations. he basically refuses to have any more federal presence on the march. what that gives the governor of mississippi and basically gives them karp launch against the

marchers. he had been using state police to protect the marchers for most of the march but with the march coming through he knows he's not going to get federal intervention. the marchers have made a point throughout the march to try to set up their big tents on land in the black community publicly because black people pay taxes too. we have a right to use this land. the whites can't dictate whether we use this land but what happens in many places along the way the local white authorities say they can't and they do it anyway. the police let it happen because they don't want it to escalate. when they get to canton at this point because it's close to the end there are 1000 people participating in these last demonstrations. they come to the ball field at the elementary school in the black community which read they were going to set up their tents.

at first the police sort of let them go and then who rolls up but a huge contingent of cars from the mississippi highway patrol the whole patrol by this supposedly protecting them. they launched teargas into the crowd and they are not using teargas as practical to push people off the land. they are launching the canisters direct lean to the crowd to punish the marchers in the name of their way in and they are hitting people with nightsticks and kicking them pulling their hair and dragging them into ditches. it's an absolutely chaotic scene. it's practically dark at that point and it was as harrowing of violence as existed in the earlier movement but because it's dark and smoking and the photographers are running there were no real sort of iconic images and because it doesn't get the support of the federal government, even after that the federal government's response

was lukewarm. we are sorry it happened but there are no retributions to the state. they basically disappear from popular memory. it doesn't have the same resonance that selma does. >> host: that is fascinating and brings me back to the cover and how images in that case were lost and what doesn't get lost. i want to turn to the fate of black power but first i want to talk about white people in this. you know what you described about law enforcement that roy orbison is coming into being jerry lee lewis, johnny cash, elvis is sprouting on the scene. what is going on in the psychology of white america at this time? how are they responding to the civil rights movement in this particular march? >> guest: for liberal whites the shooting of james meredith triggers another round of outrage against the jim crow south. they see it as another example

of violent retribution and people write to their congressman just as they had done with selma birmingham. their editorials in the newspapers condemning the violence and they sympathize with james meredith trade people wrote in to meredith and talked about their own ideas and feelings about race and asked him for advice. there was great liberal guilt in white america. remember the civil rights movement since the citizens of 1960 has been a major news story in american life for the past five or six years and to some extent the march continues that liberal trend. by the same token because of this emerging militancy, because of something like the watts riot and the controversy over the moynihan report we are starting to see the language of backlash. the backlash is starting to develop around this time in 1966 but some whites are increasingly alienated.

they think blacks are moving too fast and the civil rights movement has achieved what it needed to achieve exactly a the opposite of what blacks have said. there were plenty of white marchers, people of conscience and people affiliated with religious organizations in the catholic church and jewish americans long-time activist. it's their single civil rights experience sometimes. some people interviewed it was there all may may experience this all rights movement and they sometimes spend a couple days on the march. so it's impossible to characterize white america when we are talking about a huge swath of people and we see everything across the political spectrum from those who in brace the notions of the black archers there were civil rights activists who were white saying we agreed and other liberal whites who would say we are starting to drift away from the

ideals in terms of particular the nonviolent action and bringing whites and blacks together, integration. while someone like stokely carmichael says integration is irrelevant. the black people need to achieve power and whether there's integration or not doesn't really matter. and then you have got a growing voice of what comes more and more conservatives who see it moving too fast and tight into a broader too expansive liberal programs the political mood that will help to elect richard nixon to the presidency. >> host: you present fascinating glimpses of this mindset on the conservative right that allows a backlash and we are dealing with this to some extent when we talk about obamacare is or illegal aliens in the racial code that elect

conservatconservat ive politicians at least nationally on the back of this law and order racially coded backlash but tell us, tell us before we go to a break tell us what inspired you to write this book? all the episodes of post world war american history of all the episodes of civil rights what inspired you to write this book? >> guest: i had written books that dealt with african-american history before a biography of sydney poitier but i'd never written a classic political history but especially working with graduate students at the university of memphis where he teach that was leading the seminars and reading these different respect is. beyond just simply the story of martin luther king and the story of one demonstration. by the same token there wasn't a look that was then accessible narrative history that captured these ideas in the movement so i

saw these three weeks in mississippi is this great opportunity to tell a much broader story. it's in some ways a narrow story that follows the march from memphis to jackson but it shoots off in so many different directions and tells us so many things about what the civil rights movement was. i saw this is a key way to tell a story. a friend of mine called me from the strand book store new york seven or eight years ago and set i want to read a book about the civil rights movement. he said what book should i read? that was kind of a hard question to answer because there were biographies and textbooks but no one book for me that did make me think someone would want to write about the civil rights movement. >> host: i have one of toni morrison's favor quotes in my mind, always write the book that you would have liked to have read. that's an inspiration. okay, we will be back.

>> host: i wanted to ask you about the title crossroads as a physical place but as a symbolic lace in history. how does this march marked a historical crossroads? >> the march in a lot of ways is a crossroads for the civil rights movement in the sense that it is mostly still in the popular mind associated with the tenants of nonviolence and racial integration is its core goals. underneath that of course

especially among grassroots organizers the civil rights movement is about putting blacks in positions of power into positions where they can left themselves up trade those goals can be intertwined of course but they are not necessarily exactly the same thing. it unveils the slogan of black power. black power launches this new generation of activists. it gives them a name. the ideas that have been out there get crystallized and black power you could argue it grows in the sense that these are activists who have always been working for blacks to achieve political power into unified in their own communities to build strength.

frustrations with the federal government and white liberal allies who don't necessarily seek -- see themselves on the same page. it also grows out of disenchantment and the rejections of lone violence is a strategy does not suggest a violent revolution but his self-defense. if you want to be seen on equal footing he should have a right to defend yourself and its rejection perhaps in the core goal of integration or establishing political parties. stokely carmichael is coming to the march having organized in alabama and independent third party, an all-black party because the choices were he wasn't going to integrate into the republican party. the democratic party is a party of white supremacy so why integrate into a party that is hostile. organize your own political party and create black strength. wherever they are black

majorities whether that's a parliament on the south side of chicago or the mississippi delta organized lacks and majority. leverage that political power is an independent force. >> host: feel this is march in mississippi and this would be a platform to amplify the black power message or he got so frustrated with the march? >> guest: he came to the march with this message and even with the slogan of black power. soon after the shooting in meredith carmichael goes back to atlanta to headquarters to talk to the central committee to the governing body to think about why they should participate in the march and among the arguments is it gives us a platform to advertise the direction of black power and uses that slogan. he uses the slogan before they famous rally but he does not use

it as a chance. he doesn't say what do we won't? black power. that was on purpose. sncc has organized an agreement dating back to the 1960s. there had been advanced organizers who said this is the best place for us to use a slogan and to capture a national movement and black power is used in that way and projected onto the national news. it immediately becomes controversial and something that inspires many black people. they remember the news that night. and it blew their minds. it had this element this is a crossroads if you will and you mentioned crossroads is having a symbolic value. robert johnson of course sold his soul at the crossroads to the devil and the crossroads is a place where you make choices.

there are long expanses of flat land that comes to a crossroads. whatever choices you make have enduring consequences. so when the slogan of black powers unveiled you travel down that road. >> host: black power both as a slogan as an outlook and approach. >> guest: that's a complicated question because black power doesn't have a single definition. it depends on the responses of those who view black power so for many people for many liberals and conservatives alike saw black power as a betrayal in some ways. working against what they had been fighting for and they didn't understand the thrust of being militants that black power has a lot of common -- positive consequences. they talk about in terms of clinical he will start to see black officeholders and black

mayors and black sheriffs and all sorts of political power occurring both in the south in the north. that depends on the notion of black unity and black officials looking out for black interests and they associate that with black power. you also have to think of it in the cultural sense. if it encompasses of taking pride in your heritage and culture and your appearance and your identity, that might be black power but the notion of black is beautiful and black history as being an important aspect of american history. so there is no one legacy. it shoots off in so many different directions close rope positive negative. it's a unifying message but also an alienating message. it's constructconstruct ive slogan for achievement but also distract the slogan in terms of liberal worlds. it's a complex role.

>> host: yeah absolutely, that's fascinating. one of the things that's striking about this look is its physical kinetic quality. there is a sense of motion. how did you go about writing and researching this book? >> guest: i saw it pretty early on the basic structure. it obviously has a natural structure that moves and there are stories along the way and then it ends. in that sense it's like a biography. you know where it starts in you know where it's going to end. that structure starts at the beginning but were developed over the course of the research with each key incidents along the march that was an opportunity to talk about some other dimension of not only the march but the broader civil rights movement. that gives me the opportunity to talk within the mississippi what is the political dynamic the

struggles that they faced to register to vote but within black olive takes their those that work through the naacp who are the more established black mississippians who want to ally with whites and fold into the democratic party and a group called the mississippi freedom movement hardy. so it animates that discussion. when they get to granada mississippi they do a demonstration where they put an american flag on top of the statue of confederate soldier and the whites see it as a grievous insult and they talk about the desecration of the monument. they are still animating these different identities in different definitions of history are shaping black and whites is the place of citizenship in america. when they get to the delta -- delta there is white power in many meetings and jackson it's a

forgotten story. it's the largest civil-rights demonstration in mississippi. at least 15,000 people participated. the national media focuses on there are all these division but if you talk to the people who are dissipated this was an extraordinary moment. the march gave you this opportunity to talk about all these different themes within the movie as there is a dynamic quality in moving further south. ticket back to your question i have the luxury of media coverage. this was covered by local and national papers magazines and newspapers and also because civil rights organizations keep their papers and correspondence and records. there were all sorts of records that could be found in personal papers of civil rights activists. it was a march that was under surveillance. the fbi, the mississippi highway patrol, and a group called the mrs. c's --

the mississippi state sovereignty commission which is an organization they founded in the 1950s with the purpose of how to reserve racial segregation. it included a segregationist armed that but also included a surveillance and there was an informant on the march who was part of the inner circle reporting back to the state of mississippi. it was classified as informant x and i don't know who informant x is by produces detailed reports of what was going on in meetings and civil rights leaders in the midst of the march. that was complex because through the eyes of mississippi state officials they tend to exaggerate these and sometimes they make up stuff but it's important for understanding the different ways in which the march was being watched. the last major aspect of the research were talking to people who march. i interviewed about 100 who were

involved in the march in one way shape or form. with that brought to the story was the human dimension. this wasn't just a national story of political conflicts or ideas but also a story about the actual physical participation of the marchers. for many people as a coming-of-age of sorts and for others it was a unique experience in their lives. for some it was a tragic and disappointing experience. bring out those personal stories gave my story just that extra layer that for me makes it resonate. >> host: were most of them happy to talk about their experiences? >> guest: i would say just about everybody i talked to us more than happy to talk to me. i talked about it with through the civil rights veterans organization in mississippi. that was a great chance to get to the african-american organizations who had a view in the context of their experience

continues to the present day. so they see the march in this larger context and i talk about how it helps to further their mission and how black power was something they did before the march in something they would do after the march. they sort of deflated the national story. i talk to white activists who are part of the veterans organization so i got a chance to talk to different people from different perspectives. i talked to those who agreed with the majority of the marchers intended to be on the classical liberal side and they deflated what they were working for. and then sometimes meeting people led to did you talk to this person and did you talk to this person so i got a chance to talk to regular people from mississippi who decided to march. they got to march with martin luther king and i got to meet stokely carmichael and that shape their lives.

there was an impact on who they were his people. that was the whole point of the civil rights movement. it was in some way supposed to make you think about what possibilities exist for the future. >> host: speaking of the future in a time continuum i'm curious what your opinion is on what are the major civil rights movement in this country today? >> the biggest what we have seen is of course the movement for lgbt equality. if you want to think where that movement was in the mid-90s to now talk about a dramatic transformation. if you had told me in 1995 that most of the american population would see marriage as an implicit right and something that is obvious and should happen i think it would have blown our minds 20 years ago. it's a movement again that started in the mid-90s that

might have been considered a radical notion. now it has become mainstream thinking. it hasn't followed the same tactics because we live in a different context. popular culture in particular helped to shape this movement. think about the radical change in the possibilities. that is one that jumps out at me in terms of comparing and contrasting civil rights movements. >> host: and with other political issues that go on issues around voting, issues on structural inequality that the president just spoke about in december and then you mentioned the lgbt movement. what has changed in the past and what lessons are gleaned from the past from this march in particular from the civil rights movement? >> guest: if you think about the movement for african-american equality as you alluded to what the movement was the most successful act was

folding into basic citizenship rights. the institutions of jim crow and guaranteed access but on the march, the march was very important for martin luther king's evolution in terms of thinking about these issues of structural inequality. at the same time they were just starting to organize a campaign in chicago in the big northern city where there wasn't legal organization and then he comes to mississippi and is a personal firsthand connection to the plight of the poor black mississipians in america. that sort of deepens his understanding and he sees the march as a chance to highlight a national conversation. the press never picks up on that. they never carried the story ends some of it is because the controversy of the black power

movement and some is the backlash and he's never able to shift back to the larger structural area. you can see that tied into drug laws and he can see it tied into the criminal justice system across america. i talk about a little bit in the epilogue and obviously i felt -- focus and an epilogue i tried to follow some of the main characters and a phrase that i use up the book called the long view to freedom that meredith used himself at the beginning of the march. freedom is a long road and a longer road to freedom still. we haven't walked that road yet is clearly the visions rooted in this are tied to class in many ways. >> host: now, to be perfectly honest i didn't care or don't care about your own ethnicity and reading the book.

i love the expertise and to me that's all that matters but i'm sure viewers are wondering about your own ethnicity. did your own ethnicity shape in any way shape or form you're living in the south are their research and writing this book blacks. >> guest: that's an insures in question. it's a big part of who i am and who i've been an moving to the south where there's a small community and in memphis the number of people that i had never met before. sometimes they ask where you from. i am from boston. no, where are you from? they wanted to get at why i was doing what i was doing especially teaching a course in african-american history. it doesn't necessarily fit into my interest in african-american history because i really think i got into african-american history for two reasons. one is i think it answers fundamental questions about what it means to be african-american.

maybe that is tied to my experience about what it means to me. i love the stories. african-american history and in particular the civil rights movement i consider myself a storyteller and i think it provides this narrative dimension that i just find fascinating and to work with. >> yeah okay, that is an interesting figure and the people ask you that? >> guest: sometimes. less is a writer and more as a teacher. the university of memphis has a strong african-american presence and the majority are african-american so they are curious. for many of them they didn't understand why would you want to teach african-american history? it's not your history.

it's everyone's history as americans a more broadly in the world. our culture shape the world so for me i come at it from that broader narrative and sort of broader perspective as an american historian. it's just my perspective. >> host: and in terms of forming a perspective, what historian shaped you? what historian would you recommend everyone reading as truly provocative and memorable that teaches us something? >> guest: i can focus that question on the civil rights movement but if you are interested in this narrative history and want to read a more expansive book there is a great book by taylor branch. the subtitle is -- and it focuses in particular on martin luther king but it's a much broader story and does a wonderful job of painting the broad sweep of the civil rights

movement from 1954 to 1968. for many academic historians they appreciate pushing the movement in different directions so they're two great historians of the civil rights movement who really, change the whole direction of silva writes history. a book called local people published in 1950 for four a story of civil rights in mississippi and when you tell that story it doesn't follow kings like. king comes to it but he's not the main story so he highlights the long tradition dating back to the 1920s and he talks about some of the main aspects of grassroots organizing and when sncc comes in and how that changes in how they work with the local people. the other book in that light is by a historian and sociologist

that really tries to get out why this social change happen? he tries to answer the question from a more analytic standpoint trade how do how do you get people to register to vote? it starts with the process of making those connections on the family level and highlights the importance of women in the movement. the media focuses on male leaders. it's mostly men. it's martin luther king and stokely carmichael but what happens when you look at the civil rights movement on the ground. who are the people that are the glue of them movement? these historians help to highlight that. what i wrote in "down to the crossroads" in some ways i'm trying to merge this approach trying to tell the story within sort of this old civil rights history framework in the sense that it's a great story and it has martin luther king and the

nonviolent march but also incorporate the new civil rights have grassroots organizers shaped the movement and how black power is a much more complicated slogan and a much more positive slogan in the previous historians attested to so to give you a good example for neal joseph among his books waiting until the midnight hour and his new biography of still to come. he sees black power and with a number of other historians but begins to see it in a new frame. he pushes to think of in terms of its positive aspects and uplifting aspects in and the way it shapes the whole movement. >> host: can you speak in a little more detail about women's role in the movement itself and women's role responding to the movement particularly white women? >> guest: when we are talking about grassroots organizing you have to look at the key roles of

african-american women particularly through the institutions of local communities. how do he get people involved in the movement? you have to get them into a church. who does the work for the church? who is it that one of the church in and the community? who is making -- it's very often families. who is the center of the family? it's the mother so women become key connectors between families as well. the social network becomes the political network. i tried to talk a little bit about this and there were insures in sing stories about white women on the march where this is about the time the women's movement is in its nascent form and white women who were on the march who have been active in this all rights movement but at the same time

are seeing, the movement is bringing to the floor with acs gender inequalities as well. some women for example are talking about how they are getting hit on all the time and it doesn't become a public story. if you bring the story of lot male sexuality and white women in a -- that's going to ask away. these women are holding meetings and what does it mean to be either one so one so this generation of ominous is growing out of the civil rights movement. for black women attends to be more complicated story because they still see races they primary impression of 1966. many of them will become feminist but in a later context and in an different time under different circumstances. it's sort of two paths that merge. they are at the same time intertwined. >> guest: i want to revisit a

question that i asked but in a more direct way and that is you are and historian. the air is certainly not new to you and the issues are certainly not new to you but again in with this particular book what did you learn that you did not expect to learn? what review the most surprised to learn after finishing this book? >> guest: actually i learned a lot of things. [laughter] there were two great mysteries to me. just sort of the ministries that i was able -- never able to uncover. when was the identity of the informant x who i mentioned before. the mississippi sovereign commission is paying someone to report back to them about the habits of the civil rights meetings. i don't know who it is and it would have been interesting to know but of course it's impossible. the other great mystery to me involves the motives of james

meredith a guy named abu north. he is in his early 40s and when he shoots james meredith people assume he is another white supremacist and they figure he is associated with the and the early newspaper coverage lasts him as another man full of hate. but once they start to investigate they are confused as to why the man did it. this guy who had never really said anything and had no known connection to any white supremacist organization where the the ku klux klan or what. his motives are mystery. he is still alive and i have obviously tried to call him a number of times and set up interviews. he lives in the same house in the subdivision outside of memphis that he lived in at the time and has never revealed his motive as to why he shot james meredith. just an interesting political story, this to me was one of the

most interesting stories from the march. when meredith was shot a lot of people within the movement figured the police were in on it. he was able to shoot merida three times. despite all the law enforcement it seemed like people were paralyzed. that probably wasn't the case because it wasn't in their interest to shoot james meredith. they would be doing a bad job if that were the case. so i don't think that's sure but the more interesting part is that white southerners think that there's a conspiracy as well against them. they fear that somebody in the civil rights movement paid this guy from memphis. he's not even from mississippi. they pay this outsider to shoot james meredith, to wound him, not to kill him. that is why they used birdshot rather than a single bullet trade there would be a big story and it would turn into a great national march. that conspiracy here there he

doesn't make any sense either. so neal conspiracy i think holds ground that these stories that develop and the conspiracy theories on the shooting of james meredith once was thought it was a conspiracy against them so they use it as a weapon against the cell rights movement i find absolutely fascinating. >> host: so wrapping up what is the final thing you would like viewers and readers to know about this book blacks. >> guest: again i see the book as a way to tell a broader story about the civil rights movement by telling a very specific dramatic story about the civil rights movement. it occurs over three weeks at the start of the crossroads. it's a classic story and historians know something about the meredith march but this book tries to expand it and illuminate it and it shoots off in these different direction so it gives you a chance to think about if you are going to read

one book on the civil rights movement i would hope they might consider reading this one. >> host: as i said it was colorful and it was detailed and well researched and had the combination of interviews and research images made the main character pop. there is a relevance that resonates with today that we have already talked about. thank you for your time, aram. >> guest: thank you. i really appreciate it. a a

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