people, it has to be absolute textbook consummate examples of what you are trying to accomplish and even then you have to be very careful with it. with again, thank you. that is all the time we have. iis is about an hour and 15. >> host: randy barnett is joining us on booktv. tell us about yourself. >> guest: well, under [applause] legal professor at georgetown law school, where i direct the georgetown center for the const to shame. a farmer criminal prosecutor put county illinois chicago and i had the medical marijuana case and i was one of the lawyers for

the national federation of independent business when they challenged the affordable care act all the way up to the supreme court. >> host: given all that experience, professor barnett, what do you think of the constitution? >> guest: like the constitutional law. i like it more than those who want to change it by creating interpretations of what is supposed to mean by eliminating large parts of the constitution. >> host: here's your book, by the way, "restoring the lost consultation" the presumption of liberty. when we had that argument between a living document in a strict constructionist argument, looking at the constitution, is that a fair argument? >> guest: i wouldn't put it quite that way. i want to follow the constitution and that's what keeps it alive. as first-rate construction, it was justice goalie when he says he went to correctly construe it. neither strictly and are

liberally, but accurately that's the thing we have to aim for. >> host: the subtitle of your book is the presumption of liberty. >> guest: the presumption of liberty is the way of putting that the constitution says into effect by basically saying that the government ought to be about to justify its restrictions on liberty of those restrictions are really reasonable. in fact, under current law, unless you identify a fundamental right at issue are your part of a suspect class of people overseas special protections, the government doesn't have to justify to restrict liberties. to get the presumption in favor and that tends to be a rebuttable. >> host: can you give an example? >> guest: and economic regulation for example would be very hard-pressed to challenge it. for deliberate reasons, the congress and state legislatures are given virtually unlimited power over regulating the economy to one of the reasons we challenge the affordable care act, the only thing is the

insurance mandate because that vista beyond which congress had ever gone before, so we are able to challenge that. everything short of that was very difficult to challenge. >> host: what is the takings clause in the constitution? >> guest: the takings clause is private property be taken for public use without just compensation. >> host: how is that taken away our liberty? >> guest: certain parts of that have been part of the lost constitution. the lost constitution i should clarify or the parts of the constitution that have been taken away. it isn't completely taken away, but the public used phrase has been reinterpreted by the court as meaning public purpose. so rather than taking property for public use, which refers to schools or highways or railroads were something like that, a public purpose has been construed as broadly as economic

development, nick in the world a nicer place in individual homes likes to say kilos home got taken to do it develop that would be on behalf of the company in new london, connecticut, which never got done by the way. she lost her house because of the public purpose, not because of the public use. >> host: what was the end of the case? did she lose her house? >> guest: she ultimately lost five to for the supreme court. finally, the city consented to allow her to the house to another location. the neighborhood she was part of his gone. it's a dumping ground for debris. said the part of the last constitution, the theme of my book is that public use should be restored in place of what the courts have put in its place, which is public purpose. they've either been completely eliminated or key phrases have been substituted. >> host: such as? >> guest: the ninth amendment says the enumeration in the

constitution insert i should not because true to deny or disparage others retained by the people. that would have a dead letter. that is when the courts don't follow. the fourth amendment has been in his classes is no state shall make or enforce any law, which shall abridge villages or immunities. if he came from mars they told you that was in a legal document, you might say that sounds pretty important. wonder what that means. it sounds very important. in fact, it's only been used one since 1873 and i got it from the constitution five years after it years after it was put in the constitution in a case called the slaughterhouse cases. recently when given the opportunity to restore the privileges or immunities clause in 2010, the supreme court declined to do so. >> host: randy barnett, as a former prosecutor, when she taking people's liberties away from them? >> guest: course good advice, government takes people's liberties away when they violate the rights of others and also can properly regulate is on its

regulations are reasonable and can be shown to be reasonable in the pursuit of an appropriate government purpose. i don't know if its nose, but a great many regulations are in pursuit of helping some special interest groups at the expense of the general public were some other competitor. those would not be general-interest types of regulation. reasonable regulations are constitutional prohibitions are also constitutional. i became a state prosecutor because state prosecutors prosecute crimes of murder, armed robbery, theft and those violate the rights of others. >> host: why is the individual mandate in your view in the health care law unconstitutional? >> guest: is actually not only my view. i justices on the supreme court including chief justice robert thought requiring people to engage in economic activity or commerce in order that it can be regulated was beyond the powers of congress. therefore, the individual mandate is unconstitutional and

the reason he was unable to uphold the affordable care act with his view that do this ceiling construction which he changed mandate into an option to either pay a tax combat pay the penalty which he construed as a tax or buy insurance, but you are no longer required to buy insurance because i was unconstitutional, just like we argued. >> host: randy barnett, if someone reads a "restoring the lost consultation," do they have to be a law scholar? >> guest: i hope not. it was for a general lay audience i have people who fret at more than one third event of gifts to others because it really opens their eyes about what is missing in the constitution and how it came to be. it is a serious book. it is not superlight, although i try to be lighter than a material added at the end of the updated edition, which came out of the last few weeks. their 60 pages of new material at the end and i think there's a lighter touch to that than there was the beginning of the book. generally speaking, is

accessible to a generally educated audience. >> host: do you think the constitution is further amended? >> guest: i proposed an amendment to the constitution. the intention is to restore the lost count to two shin. ..

>> host: another one? >> guest: oh, i think there's a proposal to, well, there's a proposal that the court should follow the original meaning of the constitution which is what the book is about. there's a proposal to, basically, repeal the income tax amendment and say congress cannot tax income no matter how derived, but they could have a national sales tax instead. so there's that proposal in there. there's a proposal to ban unfunded mandates that are imposed on states. although there are very few of these proposals that have to do with states across states, they're mostly all to do with individual liberty. >> host: randy barnett, what courses do you teach here at georgetown? >> guest: well, after teaching my way through the curriculum, i teach our course on common law i, common law ii which is constitutional rights, and this book is about both of those things, and i've taught contracts since i started teaching way back when, and i have a case book in contracts and constitutional law as well.

>> host: a lot of our political discussion these days is about national security agency, privacy. what's your take? >> guest: well, i don't talk about it in this book, but i do have a recent piece in the journal called engage published by the federalist society, and i had an op-ed in "the wall street journal" arguing that this bulk data seizures that the nsa has been engaged in is unconstitutional under the fourth amendment and it's actually illegal under the usa patriot act which is what they purport to have as their authority for it. so i'm actually greatly concerned with what the nsa is doing, and i've argued there's serious constitutional questions, and i even joined an amicus brief with jim harper arguing it was unconstitutional. >> host: i think i read that texas has passed a law making e-mail, giving e-mail fourth amendment protections. >> guest: um, i'm -- i haven't heard about that one. >> host: right. but if that's the case, i mean, with the commerce clause and the

interstate commerce clause, how would that play out? >> guest: well, all texas could do is protect e-mail from their own law enforcement officers in the state of texas, which is what they ought to do. they can't really have any effect on what the federal government does when they pass a law like that. >> host: in your view, is e-mail due fourth amendment protection? >> guest: absolutely. i do think they claim to give can it fourth amendment protection when they say they can't read your e-mail, they can only survey the headers, information as to who you send it to and who you got it from, and they're claiming not to be able to read your e-mail, so they're sort of admitting that e-mail is protected already. but be i think metadata which is what they call the headers or in the case of a telephone who you all or how long you talk for, metaa data ought to be protected as well. it doesn't mean you share it with the world, including your friendly government. >> host: when you look back at the supreme court, who are some of the justices that you most admire, some that you don't? >> guest: i actually don't have

very many heroes on the supreme court. most of them i probably am sort of tepid to lukewarm about. i would have to say the first justice harlan who wrote the dissenting opinion in the civil rights cases which was otherwise unanimous besides his vote was -- and also a dissenting opinion in plessy v. ferguson on behalf of a very important reading of the 13th and 14th amendment, he is somebody who at least at that stage in his career i admire. also chief justice salmon p. chase who was an anti-slavery lawyer. his nickname when he was a lawyer was the attorney general for runaway slaves. when he became chief justice succeeding the racist justice roger tawny appointed by abraham lincoln, i thought that was a great moment for liberty, and i've done a lot of work on salmon chase in recent years. >> host: randy barnet, t, restoring the lost easy

for you to keep an eye on what is happening in washington." -- in washington. >> washington journal continues. host: we're back with two authors. .mie parnes and jonathan allen co-authors. what story are you trying to tell in this book about hillary clinton? a couple of storylines.

one is her comeback story. i find it fascinating. i think anyone would find it fascinating. mostly how she would govern if she were president. this is her biggest management job. she manage a 70,000 person bureaucracy and how does she govern and what decisions does she make and who does she surround herself with? all of these things are highlighted in the book. if you are trying to figure out what kind of president she would make, what did you think you needed to say about her? >> we needed to figure out how makes decisions, what she puts an emphasis on, what her priorities are. she has had a lot of experience inside washington. nobody campaigns successfully as the ultimate washington insider.

that might be good on television but not necessarily for presidential candidates. the truth is what we see with a lot of recent presidents is the inability to maneuver in washington and work with congress, a lack of understanding of how agencies and the private sector work and interact. we wanted an idea of her views on those things. is of the things we found that she is seen as having a bias for action, wanting to do things and be willing to take risks, calculated risks, but take some risks in order to try to achieve something. most politicians are risk-averse. host: what did you learn about , her personality, her decision-making process? guest: the bias reaction she has. she is a retail politician in her own right. we think of bill clinton as a

gregarious guy but she does it as well. we tell a story about how she left the state department and cents 16,000 thank you notes to people, 5000 of them handwritten. quite a task. we thought that was interesting and also how she kept tabs on politics. to 112 away and travel countries, but she always had her pulse on what was happening here back home. host: why do you think that matters? guest: it matters in terms of politics. running for president, we detail how she cut the operation and continue to reach out to the business community, to supporters throughout her time in the state department, helped her husband settle scores on the campaign trail, held president obama with the election. it all sets her up in a better 2016, thanking people. a lot of times when presidential campaigns do not work out,

candidates and and it is the end of the world for the them. not only does it help in terms of trying to win an election later, but it helps when you are trying to move them on public holocene issues later on. it is classic politics, the thing all old-school city mayors would do, and something that is one of hillary and invite these ways of reaching out to people. her husband has great charisma in terms of winning people over. she has got to work harder at that. it is interesting there is a lot in here about bill clinton and what he is doing at the same time that she is secretary of the state. why did you include that in the book? guest: they are interwoven. i see her as an individual person, but he is so much a part of her life.

his story is her story. they are tied together for good and bad. host: would her aides like it? guest: i do not know they necessarily like the image. i know not all of these things in this book. land anda hillary eight the world and they make a claim you -- universe and there is a crossover when you have two principles with their own interests, sometimes, it lines up perfect we and sometimes less than perfectly. there are strategies for getting things done. a lot of conflict. did you hear from the former secretary of state? are not talking about who we got it from. we heard the reaction. it's reviews. some clintonites not happy with us. some happy and content with the book.

guest: that is probably a good way to say it. one of them was this hit list where they tracked the people who do not treat her particularly well and then bill clinton went out on the campaign trail and not many of them out in the primaries. nobody in clinton land like that at all. that made news, but there was one part in here where you talk about claire, the senator, by how much she is disliked the clinton camp. why is that? to this day. it is interesting. she has come out early to endorse hillary clinton. to 2006.back the clintons had campaigned and fun raised for her and she was wasmeet the press," and she asked about president clinton, and she said something to the effect of, i think he has been a

great leader but i would not want my daughter near him. that angered a lot of clintonites and following that, she made a quick to a friend saying, she would not want to be stuck in an elevator with her, which we found to be interesting. >> in 2008, she not only it sourced says in -- senator obama, but the issue of a fresh endorsement every day on television, they had -- the headquarters, people were cursing their tv sets every time they saw her on whichever show she would be on. they got very upset or you now where come full circle she is trying to get back into clinton posses good graces. hillary clinton herself and bill clinton will be gracious about that, but when you talk about their -- talk to their aides, they still hate that and it will not change anytime soon. >> i want to go back to her personality and what goes into

it. your book. part of she has something driving her more than just power. a strong moral compass. this is a quote, that she leans into. she does not wear religion on her sleeve, but if you had any length of conversation with her as a methodist and talked with her about her faith, she will be very insightful. oft do you make of the role faith? >> is something she has spoken butt at times before, clearly, it is important to her. we found out she is on an e-mail chain with a small set of old friends. 2008, ah adviser in longtime clinton aide, jesse jackson before them. they s andss religious teaching stuff like that. she does not often want to go to church in public because she worries about disturbing other people's ability to worship

because of the fanfare that comes along when she sleeps in with the secret service or state department detail. it is something that matters to her. her fate is in methodism, a strong component of public service in it. role to do as her things for the better good. not everybody agrees with her view of how that should happen or what is the better good, but it is something driving within her. you writes that played a role in her decision to accept president obama, many please for her to join his it ministration and take over the state department. guest: she dodged him a few times. went out to chicago and they sat and she said no and he said to think about it and sleep on it. calls aed his fault -- few times. what eventually happened was he

offered it to her, and she said, let's talk conditions and called him back one morning and that was a sign. the way she explains it is, if she had been president-elect, and she had asked president -- senator obama to serve for her, she would have expected him to do it. she has a call for public service. she is a politician, but this is something she really believes in. >> there are more details to delve into from the new book, what her role was, what her responsibilities were, what she took credit for, what she did at the state department. we will get into that here. but howard is up first in pennsylvania. a democratic caller. caller: good morning. i think the to say middle-class class, which i consider myself a part of, whether you are a republican or independent or democrat, we are

looking for someone to address the problem of our jobs going to china and india, bringing them and i thinkica, obama made a big mistake by emphasizing health care. i think the economy is number one and our jobs. that is all i have to say. host: you write about the role hillary clinton say -- played on president obama said he would push health care. secretary clinton was generally attempted to stay out of domestic politics, generally not the job of the secretary of state to get involved in politics. because she had been involved in health care in the early 1990's, there was a level of toxicity she might have for obamacare had she been publicly involved. behind the scenes, she was to presidentce obama's his top aides on her

history with health care, trying to fight in the early 90's for insight. she spoke to a few lawmakers for the white house who were considering what they should do with their votes. we write about a cabinet meeting in 2009, right after the tea party summer in september 2009. basically all the cabinet members were getting upset and there was a lot of frustration and complaint are -- for the white house that their agenda was getting consumed by health care and health care would end up bringing down the party and the rest of the agenda. made anclinton impassioned plea for the cabinet members to get behind president obama. that is not an opportunity comes along like this very often. let's get this done now. told in the administration us they felt that was an underappreciated moment, but still a pivotal moment where she was bringing the force of her political weight behind president obama in front of all

these leading democrats. >> you have in the book this picture of president obama receiving a congratulatory hug. clinton had pushed for health care reform when her husband had -- was president. the insistence the lobby past and she spoke up on the president's behalf. let's go to bob in illinois. independent caller. >> good morning. i look forward to reading your book. i have two questions. we are told we should not talk about the past with fast -- with secretary clinton. if she does run, looking forward, i wonder if you guys would rank her accomplishments as secretary of state. with russia, slowing down iran posses development with nuclear bombs, egypt, syria, benghazi, how would you rank those? we saw the photos when osama bin laden was taken down in the white house situation room. as far as we know, hillary

clinton and the president were both in washington when that happened. in all your interviews and research, did you ever see a photo in the situation room or know where she was on that day? let's talk about her competence at the state department. of the biggest things is that she did support the president and was a big advocate for him on libya, the afghan laden,the rate for bin but i think the reset button is also a big moment for her. there are other moments i think john can also talk about. generally speaking, the united states was seen around the world after the first term of obama administration and she was a chief advocate abroad. relationships with european partners, some relationships in the arab world approved. that everything got better, but i think that was an important thing she contributed to.

elevated development and diplomacy as part of american foreign policy for so long in the post-9/11 world. american foreign-policy was all combat. it was all military. that elevation of diplomacy as part of the foreign-policy mix was an important accomplishment and it would've been harder for some folks with less influence to do it as fast in the american government. >> what about weighing in on the controversial issues that the secretary of state has to take on. the middle east peace process. >> there is obviously no middle east peace. she did not get israelis to sit down and join hands. nor has anybody else in a long time. and the white house really wanted to control the -- those particular issues. she had a special envoy for the middle east. ended up quitting.

so yes, she did not make a lot of progress with that. the last time there was an outbreak of violence in the area, the two brotherly palestinians, it was hillary clinton who went in and literally shuttled diplomacy between the israelis and palestinians and the egyptians to get a cease-fire in late 2012. we detail it in the book. she was skeptical of how long that would hold. it has held for about a year and a half so far. no long-term peace deal, but at least they're not shooting at each other. >> before we continue, it is really interesting. her one day came to she cametuation room to lunch, no one knew about it. her aide thought she disappeared for a little while. he actually wanted her buy-in.

we think that is a pivotal moment. he saw she had a so-called bias for action that we talked about. he we really wanted her support on this and was important for him. i was a strong moment for her. really someone she aligned with and they shared a lot of opinions, but this was where they disagreed. >> vice president biden as well, who might run against her in the primary, generally that are in the democratic primary to be a dove, but she was the hawk in the national security meetings and biden was the dove and a president obama ended up taking a more hawkish position then democrats thought he would. she andrite that president obama were in washington the day of the raid. guest: the bin laden rate, yes. before the correspondents dinner, you might recall, there

was a funny moment where there was a whole situation, what happens, what do we do if the whole thing interferes with the white house correspondent dinner and she used profanity and said, who cares? we are not allowed in the situation room but there is no reason to believe it was fake. you write president obama had to change his jokes because he knew what was about to happen later in the evening. not, lot of his aides did including his speechwriter. guest: they thought it was an interesting moment, like, why are we changing this. at that point, they did not know mitt romney would be a nominee. they went through a series of republican nominees and give them nicknames.

they had to change it because they knew the raid was going down, so they changed it. that is one of the fun stories in the book. students's get some involved in the conversation. our big 12 conference tour. today, iowa state university, we have six political science students. i want to start with kristen johnson. go ahead, you are up first. good morning. such an extensive history. it seems remarkable hillary clinton has been able to keep such a positive image for most americans. i was curious what you thought of that? guest: resilience. this is something up and down and when she gets knocked down, she has not stayed down. for her adversaries and enemies,

some of them at least respect the fight in her. for those inclined to like her, they see her as an inspiration in terms of coming back time and again. at one point, amy wanted to call the book of the phoenix because she thought hillary clinton was rising from the ashes one more time. we saw on the campaign trail in 2008, she was -- we see the echoes in 2016. as an underdog when barack obama was beating her, she suddenly gained more popularity and seemed more comfortable in that role. it is an interesting thing. a lot of people identified with the basic comeback story. we think that is one of the reasons the book is readable and enjoyable, whether folks agree or disagree with her. she had high numbers at the state department and largely was told by one of her friends, because you are not in politics anymore. as soon as she is coming back in politics, you're seeing that already. her numbers are coming down.

her friend advised her one day in a car ride. were talking about numbers and she said, once you come back into politics, watch out here at your numbers are high now. i think the clintons are very aware of this sort of thing. gerald is next, a democratic caller in cow -- carolina. caller: how are you on this pitiful morning? -- beautiful morning? please bear with me. veteran.abled vietnam i have got a couple of quick items. i think what is wrong with america, one reason why hillary clinton keeps bouncing back, is that most americans do not confuse the definition of is with proof, versus accusations, which is without proof. we do not confuse that. the second item is benghazi,

somebody brought up this morning. i understand that is a tragedy but most people leave out the senate report that just came out. page 20 and the top of page 21, when the ambassador refused security two times from december 16 -- august 16 until september 11, when the commander offered it to him. one last item, the situation over in syria, russia keeps intervening, the only report they have, why don't we just rented -- hong kong for about 50 years. we could settle the problem over there. with scandaln versus accusations. >> this interesting because of recent papers coming out. lewinsky a little more, and the 1990's, the clintons in the 1990's. they want to move past this. there is disagreement in the

republican party about how to handle it. everything issay fair game. karl rove saying, not so much. there is so much to focus on right now, benghazi, where we dredging up the past? how tove to decide handle that. i do not think you will hear a peep from the clintons on that right now. host: a tweet -- guest: interesting. i think the book probably has the most serious, concise, ,ndependent, nonpartisan description of what actually happened in benghazi, what the foreign policy was there, the decision to go into libya, how hillary clinton first put the coalition together to go to knock them out of power, the effort that was put in there to normalize relations with the government, all the way through

benghazi not only on the ground there, but in washington as well. then the aftermath, talking points, classified briefings on capitol hill, the famous moment shehe senate hearing when says, what difference at this point doesn't make? -- does it make? as far as benghazi goes, she says it was her biggest regret. there is no evidence the request for security in tripoli, a long-distance from benghazi, ever actually made it anywhere near her desk. she says she is responsible. the question for blame lies with the terrorists first and foremost. then there is a secondary uestion, anybody else? the caller mentioned and others weorting we heard since finished the book, basically suggesting, kristi vince wanted to be out there in dangerous places.

-- talking to the linens -- talking to that e libyans. aether that should the decision and ambassador makes on his own is reasonable. i would recommend that readers, particularly read our parts on benghazi. we try to take a serious and fair-minded look. me go back to iowa, students from the iowa state university. morgan, go ahead. when it came to gathering research from your book, what was the biggest obstacle you faced? guest: good question. it was a long complicated process. we started a couple years ago in 2012 around the convention season. the research was really a particularly difficult thing, it was hard to get access.

this is a very insular world. john and i had sources on the hill and at the state department , at the white house. we tried to cobble together our source list, talk to as many people as possible. we talked to more than 200 people. people who like her, don't like her, everyone. guest: it is unusual for two reporters to have completely different source lists. there is very little overlap between the people amie talk to and the people i talk to. that was helpful, we were really talkingg who we were to. another thing i found difficult, the state department summarily rejects a lot freedom of affirmation act requests that seem simple. we had a researcher helping us, you have to frame these things pretty carefully. i was surprised at the types of things that came back as rejection letters.

makes me want to spend more time constructing requests. host: nancy, texas, independent caller. caller: i have two points of view. what we need in the white house -- we do not need all these politicians and old blood. we need new blood and leaders. host: got amie parnes your amie parnes point, nancy. point, nancy. amie parnes? guest: that is tough for the clintons, they have monica lewinsky and the 1990's. i think they would actually fare quite well. thet: that is one of reasons you see karl rove and republican leaders saying these scandals are not fertile ground, if it did not stick to bill clinton and hurt him politically, it is not going to hurt hillary clinton politically.

who was more than a bystander but not much more. and, nearly all female democrats i know one hillary -- want hillary. guest: i am sure there are some female democrats who do not want hillary, it is a small minority. host: what about the female vote, i want to show from her concession speech in 2008. one line, a couple lines she put in there. and the talk about the back story. [video clip] [applause] we were not able to shatter that hardest glass ceiling, but thanks to you it has about 18 million cracks in it. [applause] the light is shining through like never before, filling us

all with hope and knowledge that the past will be a little easier. time?amie parnes, next guest: it was arguably her best speech of the campaign. jim kennedy came up with that 18 which weracks line, discovered in the book. i think she is going to embrace it a little more this time, she was reluctant to do that during this particular speech, there was back and forth with one of her aides about how to address the fact that she was a woman candidate, i don't think she will have the same hesitance. guest: taking that speech apart, we do that in the book, there is a rhetorical refrain where she echoes sojourner truth, the abolitionist and seve uffragist. sojourner truth was famous for saying "ain't i a woman."

hillary clinton is saying at the end, but i am a woman. sort of linking through sojourner truth the women's movement and the black civil rights movement. her way of getting supporters to see obama as somebody making history. that same logic could be applied should she be running for president, to be the first woman president, to talk to african-americans, hispanics, and others who have seen glass ceilings and went to see those come down. it is interesting to see those seeds planted and later in the convention speech, she uses harriet tubman, known as an abolitionist. a little different from sojourner truth, still using one arc of unifying in person the hopes of folks who wanted to see the first african-american president.

host: let's go back to ames, iowa. matalin, go ahead. good morning. you described hillary clinton as a formidable states woman, drawing attention to her adoption of traditionally to achieveraits success. i was wondering, with hillary's success as a strong female leader, do you think she has inspired other fema candidates to defy traditional gender roles and the political realm? guest: she got advice throughout her campaign from people who let people know how strong you are. she had a series of sessions at her house that summer, she learned she should have done

that a little more. it does signal you can be a powerful woman and embrace the fact that you are a strong female canada. guest: -- strong female candidate. guest: i want to know whether these students think hillary clinton could win the iowa caucus? i we have any more students, would like their opinion. host: we can have them think about that. dana says why did hillary resign? guest: it was never her intention to stay longer than four years, most cabinet secretaries do not stay on past a first term. therd air force one, president asked the secretary to hey on for another year, says will you stay? someone told us he did not put the screws to her, she did not want to stay, she left a few months later. guest: leon panetta had told him

he was not going to stick around, hillary clinton was leaving, the successor for hillary clinton, susan rice, the one obama wanted, was getting destroyed on capitol hill over benghazi and the talking points on the talk shows. her charm to win over some of the senators, she ended up making more enemies than friends. where het a situation will have to have a new defense secretary, a new secretary of state. he has got somebody leaving who has become a pretty loyal and strong advisor to him. he thought we can keep hillary clinton for a while and find the next secretary of state, resurrects susan rice a little bit. interesting moment, she just says i am done. the impacthe think could be on john kerry's tenure, what he might accomplish.

if shee overshadow -- decides to run in 2016 -- could he overshadow what she did? sure, he has a few years left, he is reaching for the stars, and efforts to clean up ria's chemical weapons, get iran to give up nuclear weapons, peace in the middle east. on iran, the state department under hillary clinton really started those negotiations. victory, john kerry will get credit, that is a shared victory. we also know there is a possibility for a lot of things to go wrong. a lot of folks thought they were the ones to go into the middle and solve the problem, as we see, assad is still solving his own -- is still slaughtering his own people. , given what ises

happening in ukraine, how do you think hillary clinton shaped obama's decision-making process, how do you react in a situation like ukraine? guest: she made him more of a hawk. that surprised a lot of democrats, she brought him farther than he was willing to go. that is why leon panetta wanted her buy in on bin laden. what do you think? guest: we will see what happens with ukraine. for the u.s., we simply do not have that kind of power we would like to have internationally. there was a time when the u.s. would speak and other nations would respond. i think the american public expects there is something the u.s. can do to affect a situation. really, in terms of affecting foreign politics, often it is a

long-term thing we can do through sanctions. it is very hard to do immediately. if you are in the ukraine and fighting for your life are fighting to put on a revolution, what the u.s. says or sanctions might not have any immediate bearing. host: talking about hillary clinton's career and her future with the authors of a new book, "hrc." ,"ie parnes of "the hill jonathan allen from bloomberg. this line from your book on libya. war." was hillary's hert: this could have been crown jewel, republicans think that was the attack they were taking, then benghazi happened. guest: in terms of it being her

the presidents., and many of his advisers, including update -- including biden werend joe reluctant to get involved in libya. they were already involved in afghanistan and iraq, some knew there was a plan to go after bin laden, another strike on a sovereign nation potentially. europeansnally, the wanted a no-fly zone, americans thought that was ineffectual. you had to get arab nations on board. different politics within them, you had to get them bought in, they were bought into a no-fly zone, then i got turned around -- then it got turned around into a strike. a set of strikes to take out gaddafi. all that was done on the ground in various capitals by hillary

clinton. she came back to president obama and said the coalition is here for this if you are willing to do it. put together this coalition, she had her stamp on it. host: terry, indiana, republican caller. caller: good morning. republican.aul but i love the clintons. guest: go figure. caller: when president clinton was in office, the economy was great. i am sure if hillary was the president, it would be great again. can i ask you why you think because it was great under bill clinton, why you assume it would be great if hillary clinton became president? she forgave her husband, he is still by her side, he

would help her become a great president. host: she is a two-fer. caller: yes. marijuana should be legalized. if that is what she is for, i am cool with them. host: let's leave it there. guest: a good way to win colorado. that is a great example of a nton crossover voter, interesting to see what he would do a favor and against each other. the economy was in better shape during the clinton years than it is now, some of that is a result of policies that president clinton put in place. the economy goes in cycles and the presidents tend to get too much blame for what is going on. it is fair to say there was a clintonian worldview when it comes to how society should operate. the role of government and the

private sector. what is interesting, the clintons seem to believe in both the government and the private sector and that they need to work together to move the country forward and have a economic growth. theblicans tend to favor private sector and have a skeptical eye of the government. democrats tend to favor the government, the clintons have a triangulation of saying we need the private sector and the government as well. would see her you adopt economic policies that were not too different from him. guest: you make the point of a two-for. people say it is a two for one deal, she has tried to establish her own brand away from him. she got upset when somebody asked her what is your husband think of this? she said i am the secretary of state. she has worked hard to separate herself and develop our own brand. host: let's go back to iowa, dakota, go ahead.

caller: hillary clinton is a celebrity politician with a mile-long resume of qualifications. she is dealing with her husband's legacy, she is dealing with potential fallout from 2008, she is dealing with being the novelty of being the first female president, and then all of those preemptive strikes with her being in the front running for so long. i was wondering if you thought -- is she still a viable democratic candidate for 2016? host: let me turn that around? do you think she is? using she could win iowa? iowans i believe that are ready to see hillary clinton in 2016. guest: pretty bold prediction. i think she is a viable

candidate for 2016 right now, if you look at the polls, polls change fast. she is far and away the leading candidate for nomination. she was that in 2008, a change. and leading republican candidates. what happens in the next few years. whether she is viable, i think she is. landscape is already set up for her, she has fundraising and researching going on, they are waiting for her to jump in. host: on twitter, did the dems show their war on women when they chose obama over hillary in 2008? john, pennsylvania, democratic caller. caller: good morning. i have been around a little terser than the commen there, the guests.

there has been a clear deterioration in the integrity of the political class. eisenhower --dent he would never consider. jimmy carter -- his post-presidency has been fantastic. he has been selfless, all for others. instance, whenor they retired and left office, when bill clinton left office, he was in debt. worth 5 years, they were $100 million. books, speeches. he want and was giving speeches for a 15000 a pop minute speech at financial firms, jewish community centers.

host: do you think this hurts her chances in 2016? caller: the fact is, it is really not even discussed. host: amie parnes? guest: i think the clinton people would say they have done their share of good. the clinton has cgi, clinton global initiative, he travels the world and does good things. if a clinton aide were sitting here, they would point out. caller wouldhe call me on my youth and inexperience, it gets me. these are questions that will be answered in a presidential campaign. reporters will attempt to make. to them. we have a scene in the book where hillary clinton has to raise money for the world's fair in shanghai in a short period of time, the chinese has said it will be an embarrassment if the u.s. does not show up.

under the bush administration, there was a decision to not support the world's fair. there was a loophole that allowed the secretary to have some involvement. basically, she hired a couple clinton fundraisers, family raises, to go out and money from the private sector, clintonped into the donor network to build a pavilion at the shanghai expo. showing how involved some of those old donors were to her work at the state department. we have a scene and there will bill clinton inscribes the coffee table book from the shanghai world expo for one of those aide.s s. he says "we did it, buddy." concerned that his network was going to be a conflict at the state department. i don't think we saw that publicly over the four years,

any scandals. was not anitely complete disentanglement of the two clinton worlds. about,ne thing you write the lessons she learned from the two thousand eight campaign. how she applied them to being secretary of state. her first five months at state, she had poured mental energy and resources into making sure that her operation was far more forward leaning that her campaign had been. aware that technological superiority could become the force behind a second bid for the presidency." lesson,he learned this she saw barack obama run circles around her campaign and turns of technology. she said what went wrong? she plucked one of his people and brought him over to stay. he started this movement, she

implemented a lot of what she learned that state -- at state. i think if she were to run in 2016, she would do the same. host: does she have a team built? team, thereas the are a number of new age tech warriors who grew up studying under innovators like jerry cohen, he was a condi rice protége. , a crowd of people who are even younger. they were figuring out how to use technology to affect political movements abroad. train revolutionaries in another country to upload video of the atrocities going on in their country. you can use gps and text messaging to try to warn people of troop movements. you can raise money for the haitian earthquake victims.

all these things they could do to affect political activity abroad could be turned back into a political campaign in 2016. host: she meets with the heads of technology companies and says to them use me like an ad. guest: isn't that interesting? guest: she may not be able to we say she understands technology. there is a joke, she is a person who is detached from the actual mechanisms that are involved but very well aware of how people and organize. what she is saying, in this case, it was in terms of companies being able to do foreign policy, doing commerce abroad, talking to foreign leaders, in some cases threatening foreign leaders. we get into that with syria. she is saying i want to be

helpful to you in spending -- expanding your footprint in a way that helps the u.s. and its foreign-policy goals. a woman who said she asked her doctor to send her first -- her daughter to send her first text message and bill clinton was receiving faxes. host: let's get our next student. go ahead, nicole. caller: good morning and thank you for having me. my question is about your brand," youed "hrc mentioned the photo diana walker took that turned into an internet sensation. did that have an effect harming her reputation and brand for young adults because of that picture turning into a joke? guest: you might have a better

perspective on that than we do. i had not heard that, that does not mean it is not true. there may be a segment of young voters who think it is ridiculous and shows she is trying to be in touch and is out of touch. there is a careful line you have to play with popular culture. as -- is president obama cool because he listens to jay-z or is he just an old guy who listens to jay-z? she is obviously trying to capture some of that magic. host: she use of that picture on her twitter page. guest: she realizes that a human eyes as her, people had this image of her as being a buttoned up woman who did not come through, she wants a lighter side to come through. host: tim, illinois, independent caller. caller: good morning. how are you? i would like to say i don't

believe hillary clinton should be blamed for her husband's dalliances. she could be considered an enabler. the subject i have not heard, we have heard a lot about what she thisrecently about -- at point, what does it matter. i would like to hear somebody issue when file gate hillary clinton was first lady. host: jonathan allen? guest: that is not something we went into in the book, we were focused on the end of 2009 to 2013. we felt like most americans, voters who were trying to judge her and how she makes decisions, needed a better picture of what she was doing at the state department. we did not get into file gate, traveled gate, she fired folks, the impeachment. -- mosthat stuff is

americans who will be voting in 2016 have a pretty good handle on those issues. host: why did you title it "hrc "? guest: interesting question. i actually wanted to call it "the phoenix." people actually call her hrc. e-mails, we thought it was a hip way to refer to her. host: does it go to her brand? what is her brand? guest: i don't think "hrc" is something people knew she was called. it comes from the hill, all the members of congress are referred to by their aides by their initials. barack obama was bho. so, that is where it comes from. as a result, when you see e-mail

communications as a reporter, you see e-mails from people. they refer to her as "hrc." we just thought it was simple. it was easy. hopefully, it brands the book more than it brands her. host: fred, pennsylvania, independent caller. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. a couple questions on hillary's career. before president clinton became president, he was governor of arkansas. if my memory is working, it was a big white water banking savings and loan scandal in arkansas. on the internet, hillary worked for monsanto as an attorney. host: what is your point? caller: you are saying she is a

viable candidate. is it -- what are we not getting? why are these things not brought up? tweet,- host: this is a we already know all the skeletons. will havehink voters that debate if she runs in 2016. the senatee that hearings on benghazi happened in the same room, hart 216 room, where the whitewater investigation went on. it is not that these things were not discussed. you might remember the chairman of the banking committee at the time, the whitewater committee, going after whitewater pretty hard. some of the subsequent scandals grew out of that. that is pretty plowed turf.

benghazi, you write about after ambassador stephen'' body was brought back, there was a moment -- maybe after they get the news. president obama asks of the secretary of state if he can go back with her to the state department. why? her,: it meant a lot to aides described this. it meant he was heartbroken over it. him toed -- she wanted come and see the people, see the faces at the state department who were so heartbroken. that moment really did mean a lot to her. guest: and to address them, to talk to the people who had just of their own, including ambassador who was extremely popular. the foreignne in service with him who had remembered him as standing out. people like chris stevens. president obama can to the state department that next day after he had give remarks in the rose

garden. he made some unscripted remarks to the people at the state department. host: was it reported on? not, ihis comments were do not think there is a recording. the fact that he was there was reported on. his basic sentiment was recorded. afterwards, he met with people who had been close to chris stevens, hillary clinton introduced them by name to the president. people at the state department we talk to who were not in the clinton world cited that moment as a big day in terms of trying to get in the morning and the healing process to begin. it meant a lot to a lot of them that the president was there and that secretary clinton had brought him there. host: john, vermont, republican caller.

caller: two questions and i comment. for amie, early on in the show, you mentioned that hillary had her finger on the pulse of everything going on. i know that benghazi thing has come up. eventually, they blamed that on a video and sent there. over the country landing benghazi on a video. i thought that was a little strange that you would make that comment. in researching your book, both you and jonathan, did you read a body,"lled "ron brown's published in 2004. it is a very insightful book on the history that is being talked about this morning with both clintons. i would recommend anybody to

read it. wndas published in 2004 by books. host: ok. the benghazi video. was a movingk it target at that point, they were trying to figure out what was happening. trying to piece together what was happening. they might have erred into doing that. host: did she refused to go on sunday talk shows? put on?susan wrighrice guest: hillary clinton goes on when she needs to. when she is trailing in a campaign and needs a moment, she will do it. generally speaking, her bent is to stay away unless there is a compelling reason. there was other stuff to do, i think she recognized the potential political danger.

this is me-- speculating -- maybe felt it was inappropriate for her to be on television when there was so much to do in terms of trying to figure out what happened. know, once she was not available and bookers for the tv shows have gone through the state department and the white house asking for her, they quickly moved to susan rice, susan rice use talking points that had been negotiated. one out beyond what some of those talking points said. ambers of congress decided, lot of members, including some republicans, decided she had lied to the public on the television shows. hillary clinton have been doing briefings on capitol hill where she had talked about armed militants going to the compound. most people who listened to