african-american admitted the university of mississippi who was shot upon his return to the state to promote voter registration. the ensuing civil rights battle as merideth recovered profit black power movement to the forefront. the program is about an hour. ..

>> stoically carmichael and caught the man who started the whole thing, james meredith and we were like sheep -- lucky to capture all of those. >> host: let's backtrack about the march how did you choose the title? >> guest: the title is "down to the crossroads" civil rights, black power, and the meredith march against fear" the civil-rights march begins memphis and ends three weeks later in jackson. during those three weeks the civil-rights movement transforms with the crossroads.

the call for black power is first heard. so to unveil the slogan to generate controversy it immediately generates swelling of the enthusiasm with the black people and a new direction of politics over the course of time because it brought together a civil-rights leaders from all across the country to put them in to a repertory of black politics moving through mississippi that highlighted the key divisions and also the key strengths. >> host: speaking of dramatizing of march the people of my generation especially black parents will say you should be grateful for this.

then we are always complaining but take us there. for people who were not there firsthand what was it like? is the images the pure physical act one interview talk about the status symbol called ventilated tissues they walked so many miles they had holes. talk about mississippi of the hot highway just the physical vigor to be a part of the march in a rare between eight or 15 miles in one day. some die-hards did it the whole three weeks. just the physical aspect, it could be quite rigorous in dealing with the fears about possible attacks of cost

while whites in the many demonstrations along the way. the rallies for voter registration and then the violence especially philadelphia and mississippi you have a host of dramatic moments. >> host: and with these moments to be familiar with that selma march but this one in particular how did it begin? >> guest: this is a unique story that it begins in the minds of one man. meredith is vegas for integrating the university of mississippi 1962 called the old this crisis as the first african-american to attend a the bastion of white privilege it was the federal constitutional crisis to call in the national guard it there is a

great ride and two people died if he spends there is one year with incredible isolation and hardship. image of that began as a very singular individual man he was not associated necessary with the movement but tried to combat what he saw institutions of white supremacy then he drosophila of radar screen and spends time in washington d.c. with the fellowship to nigeria in the roles and columbia law school but he envisions this march he gives us the walk and sees it as a number of goals. number one to encourage people to vote and starting

to stimulate the vast voter registration but for the ordinary people they realize going to the courthouse could have a loss of credit or serious danger. the other aspect is a walk against fear. he saw that tied into that battle. also personal interest as well as a chance your resuscitate his career and run for office in mississippi. , the second day of his march but he gets a warm reception with 150 people there to encourage them and tell stories of these

african-american men that were so intimidated for so long but now standing up a big loss stylites declare across the town square to support meredith. he sees himself with his personal vision of the walk. a few miles up he continues going down a stretch of road and there are highway patrol , and agents, local police, none of them stopped a man from jumping out of the woods firing three shots verge shots. said he is wounded now it is a national story. the march was a little attention but as soon as he was shot it is plastered on the front page of america. to reach a national audience it is a rally cry to pass

more civil-rights legislation. it is all sorts of excitement intention to jackson to amend this now one man's walk is transformed into an extravaganza of civil rights organizations to carry on his walk through mississippi >> host: what inspired him that had not before? >> guest: the original walk was just james meredith solidary endeavor. he said you can follow me but you have to be a man. and you have to be independent. this is not to impose of local communities or try to raise us do it and then leave.

move in small groups. the only way it will work. so it did not invite mass mark messier to station but then court and naacp then it becomes almost like a chance to replicate the success of so much. >> host: but meredith did not die? >> guest. he did not die. when he was shot there was a misinterpretation the ap reporter put out a report that he died the that was quickly dispelled. he recuperated he was in new york. so all these people marching in his name he accepts the that is occurring. but at the same time he is frustrated because the march has diverged from his vision

and is a mass march said he did not want. his ideas how to combat white supremacy not to have the mass march to have media attention or impact on the local communities. >> host: parts of what i love about this book is the colorful portrait of personalities that are reached -- richly steeped in history. besides meredith the two that come to mind for me are carmichael and martin luther king's bet each encourages participation in the mark. >> for carmichael he has a unique opportunity he is chairman of the student nonviolent coordinating committee founded by young

students to start push this a new directions. in the late '60s they are questioning who they are as an organization. exceptionally frustrated what they see as the slow pace with federal reform and boating tax rates was passed but they say the legislation on the books and the ioc johnson as the ally but the enemy because he is reluctant. they don't care about appealing to the national conscience they are more concerned to develop local weevil's one dash local levels as a grass-roots effort. at the same token when meredith is a shot there recognized an opportunity because traveling through mississippi sncc was the most organized especially in

the mississippi delta. and the largest black communities in mississippi where he made his name with connections. this is a chance of the evolving demonstration at the same time the slogan black power comes out. carmichael is fascinating. he is an unknown prior to the march. put it puts a mess of celebrity by the end he is considered the voice. she has a gift for talking to local people, a charismatic speaker to connect to choose so many different audiences weather harlem or the mississippi delta. charismatic, a powerful and he is black. almost like he makes a

rhetorical point even when he is pushed he is stubborn very concerned with uplifting black people even those white liberals are seen as the allied. >> host: that animates the power of black power in some ways he is the moral center. is king's name and presents but local people sometimes they just want to see martin luther king. the also draws more federal attention and national media attention and sncc realizes this march does not mean anything without key and we needed for the attention to generate. team is constantly pushed in multiple directions.

he is constantly trying to articulate the discontent of people like carmichael but crafted into the larger language of nonviolent action, integration of america, a plea for racial brotherhood. he is constantly using the rhetorical gift to merge these messages into something coherent. to find a unity by the end of the march he is worn down but by the end it does not have power. >> host: what was that point? >> get the end of the march it is called a mistake. the marchers had just gone to philadelphia june 21st june 21st, 1966, exactly two years weeder of the

murder of three civil rights workers. which was so large national story 1964. they commemorate those murders it was actually off the main route but it was a unique opportunity with the local black leadership of the county. with their of the route so they get less protection from the state police. people who were supposed to be protecting them where the local police who had been directly involved some of them under federal investigation for the murders so it is not as sympathetic law enforcement. so then they are attacked by a mob. people throw things at them them, a cherry bombs bombs, gunshots, as they

finish the rally people throw rocks, eggs, one marcher has the epileptic seizure and they don't let the medical truck near him they mock him. incredibly stressful it could have descended into far worse but they're able to march back into the black community before it got worse. later he said that was the most feared he has ever been. right after that he had to go to the delta where the it started. then there was a large rally of black power. and some of the speakers like for the beacons of defense that was self-defense and sncc were using provocative rhetoric.

keane was trying to pull a backing gave a beautiful moving speech he saw a brighter vision to talk about birmingham in selma but he was so worn down with everyone under his arms. he wondered if he could still work with these organizations. >> host: other seminal moments during the march? >> the other major incidents of violence is two days later in canton mississippi. a few days before the end of the march. and of few days after the of philadelphia of riots. there was a petition to the federal government the state of mississippi is not adequately protecting us.

we need protection national guard or u.s. marshals or other personnel. is essentially they were ignored by johnson. he had seen urban riots and a big controversy that seemed to stigmatize black families in a couple of weeks but johnson kept his distance from the grass roots organization. he basically refuses to have any more federal prisons. paula jones thing gives them carte blanche to use violence into use the police to protect them but now he

knows there is not federal intervention so they make up point to set up the big tent in the black community publicly. we have a right to use this land. what happens is many places along the way they say you can't but they do it anyway. when they get to camp at this point it is close to the end there is about 1,000 people participating. they come to the ball field of the elementary school in the black community even though the police arrested the advance crew. then they let them do it.

then the say mississippi highway patrol that was supposed to protect them puts on right gear and launches tear-gas into the crowd not just to push people off but launching them directly into the crowd to punish. then they are hitting people kicking them dragging them into dishes -- to choose him pulling their hair. it was as terror wing violence that existed because it is dark and smoky and the photographers there is no iconic images in because it does not get the support of the federal government because even after that the response is lukewarm. we are sorry that happened.

so it disappeared from memory it does not have that same resonance from the bridge one year earlier. >> host: that is fascinating how images make history. so first to talk about white people we know what you described about though white law enforcement with jerry lewis, elvis, johnny cash is on the scene, what is going on but the psychology of white america? how did they respond to the civil rights movement or this march? >> guest: james madison has another rage against the jim crow south for as violent retribution.

just as they have done with birmingham the newspapers that condemn this violence some of the documents they came across with their feelings of some of the great liberal guilt. there has been a major news story so to some extent the march continues that liberal trend but by the same token because of the of watts riot we start to see a backlash that phrase is a buzzword around 1966. they say blacks are moving too fast and we need to slow

down from what black activists are saying. people decide we will join the march to give people conscience catholic church, a jewish americans americans, longtime activist people was their own experience for something they had to be a part of. it is impossible to characterize white america. you do see everything from those that embrace the notions those that said we have been fighting for black power all along. or those that we are starting to drift away particularly the non-violent action to bring to whites

and blacks together with integration. also carmichael would say integration is irrelevant they need to achieve power. then a growing voice of the new bright more conservative is -- conservatives that is to brodeur with the expansion of the liberal programs as knicks soon comes to the presidency two years later as reagan goes to the governorship about the same time. >> host: you have fascinating mind-set on the conservative with obamacare or illegal aliens conservative politicians on the back of this law which

-- coded as a backlash. before we go to break what inspired you? of all the episodes what inspires you to write this book? >> i have written books that deal with african-american history but especially working with a graduate students the ways dollars to broaden the understanding with one demonstration but by the same token nonassessable narrative history so there was this great opportunity in some

ways it sets up characters but it shoots often so many directions to tell us of what the civil rights movement was. it was a key way to tell a broader story. a friend called me about seven or eight years ago justin interested reader and said what book should i read? hard question to answer their textbooks and biographies but nothing did for me what somebody would want to read so you could argue that is my answer. >> host: always write the book you would have liked to have read. we will be back.

>> host: i want to ask you about the title "down to the crossroads" as a physical place but also how does this march marked a historical crossroads? >> guest: the march you could argue is a crossroads for the civil rights that it is mostly associated with the tenets of nonviolence and racial integration at its core of the popular mind. underneath that is a similar occurrence with grass-roots organizers that the civil-rights movement is

about putting blacks in positions of power where they can lift themselves up. those can be intertwined but not the same thing. but it unveils the slogan of power and black power is a new generation of activist to give them a name. the idea that with black how are you could argue a civil-rights movement but also rejecting civil-rights. it grows in the sense these are activists who have always been working for blacks to achieve political power. but it grows out of frustrations with a federal government and allies who

don't necessarily see themselves on the same page. but it also grows out of disenchantment and the rejection for non-violence as a strategy. not that it wasn't a violent revolution but if you want to be seen with equal footing you should have a right to defend yourself. it is a rejection of integration and carmichael comes to the meredith march as the independent third-party because the choices were he would not integrate to the republican party and democratic party was white supremacy so by integrate into a party that is hostile to york interest? he said organized your own party. whether that is our love or sell side of chicago or the

mississippi delta. that is black power. use that. as the independent force. . .

and to sort of capture what power is used in that way it's projected out and becomes the controversy and immediately becomes something that inspires many black people and did not generation they remember the news that night when power was introduced and it blew their minds. so it had this element of this is a new direction and you mentioned the crossroads as having a sort of symbolic value. robert johnson of course told his soul into the crossroads is a place you make choices and there are crossroads with long expansions of the flatlander so if you come to a fork in the road or a crossroads and whatever choice you make they

have enduring consequences because you are going to travel down that road. >> and what has become the fate of black power both as a slogan and as an outlook and approach? >> that is a complicated question because it doesn't have a single definition. it depends on the responses of those that view black power. for many people, for many liberals and conservatives alike they thought of it as a working against what they had been fighting for and they didn't understand the new militants. but it has a lot of positive consequences as well and there's a whole generation of scholars who are emphasizing these point to talk about how you start to see the black officeholders and black mayors in the black sheriffs, all sorts of political power occurring in the south and in the north but it depends on the notion of lack officials

looking out for the black interest. people associate that with black power and you also have to think of it in cultural terms. if it encompasses the ideas of taking pride in your heritage and your culture and your appearance and identity that might be the legacy of black history as being an important aspect. so, there is no one legacy. it shoots off in so many directions. it's also alienating, a constructive slogan for the achievement in terms of the liberal goals of the civil rights movement it is complex and means lots of different things. >> host: absolutely, that's fascinating. and one of the things that is

striking in this book is the physical quality and the sense of notion. i fall pretty on the basic structure it starts someplace and it moves and there are stories along the way and then it ends so it is like a biography you know where you are going to start and end time and within that there's all sorts of stories to tell comes with the structure i could see from the beginning but what's developed over the course of the research is with each chapter and each instance along the march, that was an opportunity to talk about some other dimension of not only the march but the broad civil rights movement. so they do the first registration and that gives me the opportunity to talk about what is the political dynamic and the struggle to register to vote but also within the bloc politics there's those that work during the naacp that are the more established black

mississippians that want to allied and fold into the democratic party and also a group called the mississippi freedom democratic party that is an independent black political party that running in the democratic primary as well. so it animates the discussion and when they get to grenada mississippi beat of a given then station where they put an american flag atop of the statute of a confederate soldier and they see this as the desecration so that gave me the opportunity to talk about the visions of the civil war 100 years later and how they are still animating these different identities and the different shaping of citizenship in america. when they get to the adult and of course in greenwood they have a chance to talk about the black power and its many meanings. it's a forgotten story it's the largest in history at least 15,000 people participate and the story gets lost because the media tends to focus on their

saltines debate with these divisions that if you talk about the people that participate this was an extraordinary moment in any. so it gave this opportunity to talk about all these different themes within the movement as there is a sort of dynamic quality of it moving further south and ending in jackson. going back to the question of how the mighty research, i have the luxury of the media coverage, for one thing. this was a march covered by local papers, national papers, magazines, you name it and also because the civil rights organizations keep their papers and correspond to records and there were also some records that could be found in the personal papers and also in the organizational ones. the fbi, the mississippi highway patrol, and a group called the mississippi state sovereignty commission which was an organization founded a decade earlier in 1950s with the expressed purpose of how to restore mississippi so it

included a public-relations in the positive light to the rest of the country but it also included a surveillance and there was an informant on the march part of the civil rights inner circle reporting back to mississippi. classified as the informant and i don't know who the informant x. is but they produced detailed reports of what was going on in meetings among the civil rights leaders in the midst of the march of the controversies. that was a complex source because you have to read it through the eyes of the officials that exaggerate the differences and sometimes even a stuff up but it's an important source for understanding just the different ways the march was being watched. >> in the last major aspect of the research talking to people that marched i interviewed about 100 people who were involved in the march in one way, shape or form, and what that really brought the story of the human dimension that this wasn't just a national story about political

conflicts or ideas but it was also about the actual physical participation of the marchers. it was a coming-of-age of swords and for others it was a unique experience of their lives, so it was a tragic and disappointing experience. bringing out those personal stories i think gave this, my story just that extra layer. for me it made it resonate. >> host: one must have been happy to talk about experiences were nervous? >> guest: i would say everyone i talked to was more than happy and i talked with people from all sorts of levels, so i talked about it with the civil rights veterans organization in the city and that was a great chance to get to the african-american organizers. they see the march importance within the context of the longer experience that started well before 66 and continues to the present day so they see the march in this larger context and talk about how it helped further

their mission and how black power was something they were before before the march and after the march and they inflated the story. talk to white activists who were put up the civil rights veterans organization that was a chance to talk to different people from different perspectives and again for those who agree with the majority of the black organizers tend to be on the liberal side and deflated what we were working for. and sometimes you just -- meeting people there to you should talk to this person and that person so i talked to people who decided to join the march and it was quite an experience they got to march with martin luther king and stokely carmichael. it was an important impact on who they were as people and how they sold themselves into that possibility. so it was supposed to in some ways shape them to make you

think about what possibilities exist for the future. i'm curious what your opinion is on what are the major civil rights of the country today? >> we were relatively young and of course the movement for the lg dt quality. where that was from the '90s until now to talk about it if you hav had told me in 1995 that most of the american population would see marriage as an implicit right and something that is obvious and should have been a think would have blown your mind 20 years ago so the movement started again in the mid-'90s it might have been considered a radical notion and now it's become mainstream thinking and hasn't followed necessarily the same tactics.

we live in a different context, popular culture in particular pr does shape this movement but think about the radical change in the notions and possibilities in that aspect that's the one that jumps out in terms of comparing the drafting of the civil rights. spin again with other political issues that go on around voting and structural inequality the president spoke about in december and then you mentioned the movement. what has changed in the past and from this march in particular from the civil rights movement -- >> if you think of the movement for the quality as you are alluding to in particular what the movement was most successful at was folding into basic citizenship right to destroy the institutions of jim crow and if they guaranteed the access to

the vote that on the march it was important for martin luther king's evolution in terms of thinking about the issues of the structural inequality and the same time in chicago you're talking about a city yet he has a sort of personal first-hand connection to the plight and that sort of defense is understanding and sees the march of the chance to highlight and create a national conversation and that is one of the tragedies for him the press never picks up on it and carry the story the way he wants into that as the controversy that is in the nature of the press at that point and the backlash and he's never able to shift and can see

that in the criminal justice system. i talk about it a little bit and try to follow the main characters in the talk about the phrase i used throughout the book called the idea of the long road to freedom. freedom is a long road and there is a longer road have two talkback because the division is rooted in race. >> i didn't care or don't care about the efficacy and reading the book. i love your expertise and to me that is all that mattered. but if you're wondering about your own ethnicit ethnicity didn any way or form living in the

south and get your research and writing about this book picks >> it is a big part of who i am and there's a relatively smaller community and the number of people i met sometimes they ask where are you from and i'd say i'm from boston. though, where are you from. especially if i was teaching the course in african-american history. but i don't know that this necessarily has fed into my interest in african-american history because i think i got into african-american history for two reasons. one i think it answers fundamental questions about it means to be an american to use the phrase to put a mirror to america and maybe that is tied to my experience because i thought about it means to be

american. but i love the stories. african-american history in particular. it provides a narrative dimension that i just find it fascinating and i want to work with. >> do people ask you that >> more often when i'm teaching a class that deals with history and the university of memphis to teach the course of the majority will be african-americans are curious sometimes because for many of them they didn't understand why would you want to teach it it's not your history d i try to explain it is everyone's history of americans and more broadly in the world. so for me i come at it from the broader narrative perspective

it's not the only way. spin it into perspective what would you recommend everyone reading it truly provocative and memorable >> guest: i can put us on that if you're interested in this history and want to read the more expensive works that there is a volume of the movement by taylor branch into those are stories the subtitle they focus in particular on martin luther king, but it is a much broader story than that and he does a wonderful job of painting the broad sweep of human history from about 1954. many appreciate the work that

they are also trying to push the movement in different directions. so someone like the two greatest historians of the movement who shape the future direction of the studies that one of them is named john and the other is charles king published in 1994 and you told that story it doesn't follow. it's not the main story so he highlights the longer traditions of the organizers eating back to the 20s and 30s and he talks about some of the main aspects of grassroots organizing how that changes in how they try to put the local people. and the other book in that light is like the historian and sociologist in the light of freedom, there is much more analytical work that really tries to get a flight of social change happens and how those organizing work and he tries to answer the pistons got from the

standpoint o but how do you get people to register to vote it starts with a process of making those connections on a family level and give to the importance to highlight the importance of women in the movement. you look at the cover is mostly men. martin luther king and stokely carmichael but it happens when you look at the movement on the ground who are the people who are organizing the meetings and who are sort of the glue of the movement picks it is often the one in highlighted that. so in some ways i am trying to merge these approaches in tow the story within th the old civl rights framework in that it is a nonviolent march and to incorporate the ideas of the new civil rights history of aggressive rights organizers shape the movement and

international context is important and als also how black power is a much work complicated story and much more positive slogan than the previous to give you another great example of the black power in america. one of the books was waiting until the midnight hour. and he gets us to the black power and with a number of others in terms of its positive aspect. >> can you speak more in detail about the movement itself and responding to the movement >> when we are talking about the idea of grassroots organizing you have to look at the key role particularly for the communiti

communities. does the work for the church. who is at the center. the women become key connectors and the families. in the march there are interesting stories about the light went on the march who are right about the time when the women's movement the limit on the march of connected in the civil rights movement at the same time are seeing within it the movement is taking to the floor what they see or gender inequalities of 11 are talking about how they are getting hit on all the time and it doesn't

become a public story because if you pick up the story on sexuality with -- and in the context of the civil rights that is going to escalate but underneath the service they are holding a beings into talking about what does it mean to become equal and so on. they still see that becomes a greater context and in a different time under different circumstances. there are sort of a two path that merge at the same time. >> i want to revisit the question in a more direct way and that is you are a historian and it's certainly not new to you.

the issues are not going to be, but the beginning and launching into this particular people did you learn that you didn't expect to learn, what are you the most surprised to learn after this book lacks >> guest: a lot of things. i learned a lot of things. there are two great mysteries to me. the mysteries i was able to beat could never able to uncover. one is the identity of the informant i mentioned before. the commission is paying someone to report back to them about the happenings of the civil rights meetings. i don't know who it is. it would have been interesting to know. the other mystery to me involves the motives of the man that shot james meredith and we haven't met him yet. at the time he's in his early 40s, hard-working and memphis, and then he shoots james

meredith people assume h he's another white supremacist and they figure that he's associated with the clan and the editorial just blasts him as a man full of hate but once they start to investigate if they are confus confused. he never said anything about the civil rights movement, had no connection to any white supremacist organization, the ku klux klan or what not. i tried to call him a number of times, he lives in the same house in a subdivision he lived at the time and he's never revealed his motive as to why he shot james meredith and i it was an interesting political story. this was one of the interesting stories when meredith was shot, a lot of people within the movement figured it was a

conspiracy. the police were in on it because he's able to walk out of the woods to shoot him three times, walk back into the woods and they arrested him later. that probably wasn't the case because it wasn't in their interest for someone to shoot james meredith. i don't think that conspiracy is true but the other part is white southerners think there's a conspiracy as well. they figured somebody paid this guy, this outsider to shoot james meredith love to kill them, to wound him, that's why they used the shop rather than the single bullet that would be a story that would turn into a national march. that doesn't make sense because again this is a fear of march by one man when it started.

started. but these competing stories that develop is that white southerners really thought this was a conspiracy against them. that is absolutely fascinating story. >> amazing. so, wrapping up what is the final thing that you would like the viewers and readers to know about the book lacks >> i think it is a way to tell about the civil rights movement by telling a very specific and dramatic story about the civil rights movement. it occurs after three weeks after they had their sort of crossroads. it's classic and historians know a lot about the meredith march but this book tries to expand and shoots off in different directions, so it gives you the chance to think if you are going to read one book i hope you might consider this one. >> i hope so too. it was phonetic and colorful, detailed info searched.

it made the characters pop in the issues we've already talked about. thank you for your time. >> guest: thank you. i really appreciate it. in which authors of the latest nonfiction books are interviewed by journalists, publi public poy makers, legislators and others familiar with their material. :after words airs every weekend at 10 p.m. on saturday, 1210 and 9 p.m. on sunday at 12 a.m. on monday. you can also watch "after words" online. go to booktv.or and click on "after words" on the upper right hand side of the page.

>> spinnaker you're not in a post-feminist era. i'm very concerned about the war on winning. we are rolling back access to reproductive rights and there is no end to the regrettable statistics on violence against women. we have not stopped shaving girls about their bodies. to be loved or popular with a, e problem in terms of defining feminism, it is true that what unifies a lot of the women globally is what it does to women about victimhood that is a very important critique. they want to push forward by making the possible and the

statement. but there is so much work to do and globally the statistics are frightening in terms of the whack of access to everything from education to health. women's history for beginners is the book club selection for the month of february. you'll see right at the top there is a tab that says club and you can't dissipate in the discussion at booktv.org. people have articles appear tomorrow in will be posting on a regular basis discussion question so you'll be able to put dissipate in the command history for beginners as the

2014 the close election. >> this podcast at the center of every media policy debate. i don't see this being in the public interest. i think they should block the merger and it's why we have antitrust laws to prevent these kind of deals and i think that for most americans a deal like this seems to be unthinkable in that it's gotten this far it is being debated. but for me there is no condition that is good enough to put a deal like this go through. the transactions are frequently used as a way to shape our so there are a lot of conditions that can be placed be it a trilogy, low-cost offering were two schools for the president to

connect to the initiative to upgrade internet access to 99% of america's schools. there are things some of it to the conditions agreed to three years ago when it talked nbc universal. so i can see it's being seriously considered that the fcc something that they would approve that a lot of condition. ..