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[applause] >> thank you all for bringing this weather. as i understand it, lest they might have been worse. i might have been delivering this from the airport if we had done this last week. want to begin our story a little bit after the civil war.

on june 13th 1905. it was less than three weeks before his death that john hay awoken his cabin room on the are in as baltic, a great ocean liner that steamed the course from liverpool to new york. at this point john hay was a noted poet and historian, former newspaper editor and railroading executive. he served as u.s. ambassador to the united kingdom. since 1898 he had been a secretary of state, first under president william mckinley and then after his death under president theodore roosevelt. at this point john hay was arguably one of the most powerful men in the world. is spirit was fast burning out of his frail body. he reached for his diary and composed what i think he knew was one of his last injuries and will i dreamt last night that i was in washington and went to

the white house to report to the president, but the president turned out to be mr. lincoln. kind and considerate and sympathetic about my own eyes and gave me to an important letters to answer. i was pleased that this order was in my power to obey, not in the least bit surprised of his presence in the white house but the impression being one of overwhelming melancholy and can only imagine how long it had been since abraham lincoln and faded into the dreams of john hay. "lincoln boys", the book that is published as the story of john hay and john nicolay got to prairie boy's who forged a close that would indore over the course of a half a century. history basically or fortune found them at the right place and the right time, springfield, illinois in 1860. ultimately it offered them a fresh rose seed to one of the most tumultuous political upheavals in american history

then or since. as abraham lincoln's private secretary they became both literally and figuratively closer to the president than anyone outside of lincoln's immediate family. at the time they were still young men in their 20's, living and working on the second floor of the white house down the hall from the lincoln family and perform the roles and functions of a modern-day presidential chief of staff, press secretary, political director, and presidential body man. today you a parolee have to spend 20 years living of the letter. they get to do all of those jobs in one. today at -- above all they did what one reporter called during the last door. that was a journalist to was at one of the many washington insiders who coveted hay and nicolais jobs and felt that they were too big for their britches. a fault that john hay said which

seems to be based on nature. there was little wonder that historians can sold their ratings quite frequently because they were really sparkling letter writers and direst and provide an eyewitness account of lincoln's white house. and so for this reason most scholars of the civil war era know him well. we rely on them to help us document that time. it is actually their life's work after lincoln died that is the unwritten story. the boys, as the president affectionately called them became his official biographers enjoy exclusive access to his papers with the lincoln family close to the public until 1947 which was the 21st anniversary of robert todd lincoln's death and was well, well decades past the time when the principals involved including john hay and john nicolay had passed away undertaking a quarter-century

mission to create a definitive and enduring historical representation. the culmination of these efforts, and extensive ten volume biography which was serialized widely in the century magazine which at that time was america's leading mass circulation magazine, that effort constituted one of the singularly successful exercises and historical revisionism in all of american history. rating against the rising trend of southern apology and they pioneered what some critics call the so-called modern interpretation of the civil war, but it was their portrayal of lincoln that became the standard against which every writer then and since has had to stake out a position. hay and nikolai helped to invent or in many ways stayed in and the lincoln whom we know today. this age father figure, military genius, greatest american orator , brilliant political

tactician, master of a fractious continent to force a team of rivals out of challengers for the throne. the lincoln memorial, lincoln, these are in every sense invention or at least the imagination that was left u.s. now that the lincoln was all of these things in some measure there can be no doubt. he certainly was, but it is easy to forget, and we often do, how widely underrated lincoln the president and lincoln a man were at the time of his death and how successful they were in elevating his place in the national memory. while lincoln prided himself on his deep connection to the people, a phrase he used to a never succeeded in translating that immense popularity with the northern public into a similar sense of regard among the nation's political and intellectual elites who continue to regard him poorly. the profound emotional bonds at

lincoln shared with union soldiers and families and his stunning electoral successes in two presidential elections back-to-back never fully inspired the equivalent on an adequate level of the theme. among the influential men who govern the country in guarded its official history. to many of these men he remained what they described him as in life, the rail splitter and a country lawyer, good and decent, but ill-fated to the men's responsibilities of the wartime presidency. leading into the 1864 election cycle many prominent members of lincoln's own party would have agreed with one senator, republican, who said that this administration has been a disgrace from the very beginning to everyone who had anything to do with bringing it into power which was hardly an isolated point of view. from across the political spectrum, for four years of military stalemate and setbacks

as well as a series of political bunt -- blunders. democrats particularly in the north forget the south and regarded lincoln as a tyrant, a man who introduced the draft, whole host of taxes in order to fight this war. a man who freed the slaves and one to fight a war to free the slaves. even after his martyrdom learned class is in the north continued to turn up in noses when lincoln's name was mentioned. 1972 charles francis adams and he also served in the lincoln administration as minister to great britain and before that as republican congressman. he delivered a memorial address after that that the former secretary of state william seward and portrayed in this address which was widely

serialized, soared as the glue that kept the government together in perilous times. down to this hour no experiment has ever been made as that of elevating to the head of affairs a man with no little previous preparation. this might have been a set up whereby we could have said they got it worked well. he said only by good grace and locked it lincoln actually possess the wisdom to appoint as first minister sioux word, the mastermind of the government and savior of the union. naturally this speech enraged the lincoln family, lincoln's stall or defenders, particularly gideon welles who had served with seward in that cabinet. he issued a stinging rebuke. unfortunately charles francis adams was hardly alone in this

position. and is popular account of the war years the influential if not erratic newspaper editor similarly portrayed lincoln has a bundling leader who had squandered multiple opportunities to end the war early either on the battlefield look through negotiation. loyalists roll their eyes, but the problem was that horace greeley's a lot of books and papers, so his opinion mattered. the end of the day they were uniquely positioned to help rescue the reputation of lincoln from the dustbin of history. they first met in 1851 as a gifted, inquiring student in a small country school in illinois. a was a physician's son and one of six children. nikolai was stirred poor, immigrated from bavaria at age six. by age 14 he was an orphan, parents had passed away.

he was an audit date dad who could count his months of formal schooling on two hands . nikolai rose up from being a printer's devil which effectively meant that that he did everything from sweeping the floor of the week in his paper to set in the print and cleaning the office. he rose within two years from doing that to becoming a newspaperman and within a year or two of that he bought the newspaper and became editor in his early 20's. this was in the early 1850's when the whole country was a fire with the debate over slavery and its prospective spread into the western territories. nicolay quickly became a leading anti slavery newspaper editor who increasingly gravitated toward republican party politics. he was appointed in 1855 as an aid in the illinois legislature after the republican party which was a new party won control of both houses. he sold the newspaper and soon

became what i think you could call the defacto executive director of the state republican party in his early 20's. his friend came from a very different background and followed a different path the politics. he had gone to a brown university courtesy of his uncle milton. he had clerked under abraham lincoln and his prior law partner. after he came back from brown upon graduating in 1859 he announced his parents that he intended to become a poet. they announced to him that this would not have been. at think that there goal would be familiar to any parent of any generation. there was of family council that was called. older brothers and sisters. the parents sat down and basically had to figure out how to get in a job and to move of the house. again, something strange, and some things don't.

they struck a compromise. he could continue his literary interest and enterprises will would have to study for the law with his uncle. back in the day there were no law schools. if he became law it -- lawyer you study the report in existing law firm. the deal was he would move to springfield and steady. it is in this way that john hay came to know abraham lincoln. he reacquaint himself with his old friend, john nicolay around 1859-1860. this is not to say at cajun immediately got interested in politics. he neglected blackstone commentaries and spent the first couple of weeks that he was supposed to be studying the law researching the history of the jazz with water. they were not impressed.

close friends suggested that he might make a career of the pulpit trying to figure out a way to a justify the fact that he had not progressed and his legal studies. i don't think i would do from methodist preacher. i would not seek for the baptist i would fail as an episcopalian. his uncle was not particularly in used until then to go back to his legal studies. john wrote to is college girlfriend, they would spoil first-class preacher to make a third class lawyer rodney. i alternate between weeks of sickness and months of my condition of chronic worthlessness. in the meantime i will read the law. he was not the first person to have to get a law degree who had no interest whatsoever in practicing law.

while he spent his time not reading along lincoln took him on as a campaign aide in the 1860's shortly after winning a republican nomination in chicago. during the post election interlude he appointed nicolay to become his private secretary when he indicated that he would taken to washington. it was during this time that he actually became somewhat influential controlling access to the president-elect has course, if not hundreds of politicians from around the country came to spring field to confer with lincoln and labored alone. i hundred now hundred and 50 letters a day coming in to the president-elect. he effectively became the gatekeeper to the president-elect. when a male in the visitors became unmanageable he began assisting his old friend on an informal basis. there were all working out of the governor's office at the

state house in springfield, the governor of illinois graciously offering the president elect use of his offices until he left for washington. it was at this point that he officially offered nicolay the princely sum of $2,500 a year, almost three times what he had been turning its campaign secretary. not long after this deal was struck he said he thought it might be good to bring the assistant secretary, to which she replied we cannot take all of illinois down with us. i guess we can let him come. and so you went to washington. in demeanor and temperament he could not have been more different. they had never been to washington. only visiting it once. secretary hay had never been to this city. never completely unknown -- unknown. they get to washington and now suddenly taking a presence on the second floor of the white

house, control all access to the president and are, in effect, his chief of staff, generals and the army, u.s. senators. after clear it with them. able to dictate orders to mableton effectively cosign are signed for and field commissions, send them often-them off. within time it became known as the people who understood what is will wasn't it executed. but they were young. they were, of course, aware of the power and influence. they were different in terms of demeanor. nicolay with short tempered. the cat and a brooding figure. williams' daughter who was another assistant secretary who served under their supervision later remarked that he was decidedly german in his manner of telling people what he thought of them. people would all like him because they cannot use them say that he is our and crusty, but

it is a grand thing that he is. hay cultivated a softer image. he was a comely young man with a peach blossom face, would he come ablation manner coming hit deep enough, bubbling over with brilliant speech. he was a would-be poet and he was well into his tenure as white house staffer skeptical of politics and politicians and basically took this job because she was happy to do anything the study the law with his uncle. he told his college go from some time shortly before lincoln was nominated that insanity has not yet changed its form from crime to politics. i will occupy myself pleasantly and they're really hating both sides and abusing the particular company of the tenants that i happen to be in. when that company is divided i will say with murky shiel, a plague on both your houses.

i expect to of this for quite some time unless lincoln is nominated in chicago. that said, hay like his dad is pretty much from the day he arrived. anybody here has ever met a young house said our white house staffer would recognize a certain quality in their behavior. days after moving into the white house john hay-the letter of to his old college co friend on the executive mansion stationery and said if you choose to write me back will get your letter addressed care of the president washington d.c. the envelope was frank. assistant private secretary. at willard's hotel where he and nikolai would take their dinner every evening for the most part unless they dined with the president, hay enjoyed the knowing glances and stairs of the office seekers, wire polers, inventors, artists, poets,. >> , the thomases, mail contractors camauro with

directors and all of the competition's -- politicians. , basically all of the folks to people like hawthorne and hay to spiced. in his first few weeks in washington in happened across. taking in the scene. when mitchell asked him how he was enjoying himself and congratulated him? hay replied, yes, and keeper of the president's conscience. john george hay, only slightly less insufferable around the same time he informed his fiancee that in my position i necessarily hear something new almost every day that would certainly be of infinite interest as someone and sometimes.

it's my duty to say nothing, so i won't. if you have to impress your fiancee with your job at the white house, i think you're still a little green. to one supplicant to stop a few minutes of this time nicolay replied, the president's task is not child's play. not hard to understand why many people viewed him as being a little to break -- big for their britches. this secretary has lost something of their use and they grew to become trusted and the president. midway through the war hay was commissioned to captain in the union army with an official detail assignment to a white house. at the same time nicolay effectively became lincoln's the fact of political director and chief of staff. hay effectively became his direct liaison to the military, but the use and in different ways at different times. usually, i would say, for the most part one third of the year there were both in washington together. other times one or the other was

a way. lincoln said hay on various missions, to florida to try to reconstruct the state unsuccessfully, to niagara falls to oversee horace greeley's ill-fated negotiations with to confederate commissioners. you get a sense of how important it became if the interested hay with the task of going to oversee peace discussions overseeing the messy business . he also counted on nicolay to become -- to go to new york and sort out the mess of patronage appointments that were bothering the political boss of new york. the key to a reelection because without him new york would not have gone for lincoln.

he trusted nicolay deal handle this. the relationship between the boys and lincoln was a sentiment. frequently sent out for weeks at a time on these kinds of sensitive political and military missions, being careful to make sure that one of them was always at the white house, the captain close contact with each other and exchanged frequent, humorous observations. in private they were referring to lincoln as the tight end or the ancient. their relationship was less affectionate. by their own estimation they were daily and nightly witnesses, the anxieties, fears, and hopes which pervaded the executive mansion and national capital. the president gave his secretaries the utmost confidence. there went so far as to claim that lincoln saw them has been affectionately as he did his own

sons. that was the relationship of these two men enjoyed with abraham lincoln. i would add that .. was at his bedside when he died. that night he had been an robert todd lincoln. the rest to the bedside. that is how close they were to him. this father's reputation exceedingly in shambles robert todd lincoln knew that these are precisely the men that he needed to turn to they were particularly troubled by the historical amnesia that was quickly taking hold of the reid united states. it was not just that they were bothered in the way that lincoln was troubled as a weak leader but in popular literature and journalism the war was being recast as a squabble over abstract political principles rather than a moral struggle

which is very much what they viewed the boras. having come out of the republican party, having come of age during the era of the republican party, they could not help but to view slavery as the center of the conflict. they saw magazines and newspapers commonly taking to celebrating the military dollar, arguing in effect the bravery rather than morality was the chief quality to be commemorated which bothered them very much. the authors pointedly emphasized that there were still in tomorrow, and political values that divided the nation before and after the war. they viewed as having the uprising of national conference against the secular law that could never be blotted out against a romance of the union. though nicolay and hay made little effort to mask their bias, they did set out to do with, to write a history that

was grounded in evidence. it was roughly around 1875 the robber told me to give them exclusive access to the papers. by then nicolay had been appointed grand marshal of the u.s. supreme court. served a term as assistant secretary of state and was about -- he was finishing up his tenure. they made little effort to mask their bias when they begin writing, but they did set out to write this history in a professional way round it in evidence. in the early days of the project he spent several months with several individuals who had known. the transcripts of these discussions are still on library of congress and the fascinating to read and informed there work, but they came to pass a skeptical eye on the record

memories of old men and women who were remembering things after the fact and in many times doing so and accurately. it is a factor and an adult could not be confirmed from textual evidence. ultimately decide and that they were discarded with it -- which is a methodology that historians today do not apply. we rely a lot on the kind of post facto memories of people. they did not think that it was particularly useful or reliable. when chapters of their work were serialized a newspaperman who had served as assistant secretary of war publicly challenged their assertion that hay had accompanied the president of the war office to receive the 1864 presidential election return. he said flatly that they were lying. he of course kept a pretty good dirae and said that, you know,

dana is insisting now was not there. he said the part of conceded the old men with bad memories. writing to the former president, he observed that people grew self aggrandizing overtime as emery's increasingly betrayed them. it is impossible for any old illinois and to talk for five minutes without letting you understand that he made lincoln all that he was. we are giving offense to our friends but declining to do so. but to actualizing this for a moment. in the 1860's and 70's some of the most popular biographical of information was emanating from former friends of is who had been is an honor -- in

springfield to had been adjusted aid in the white house and sometime lawyer on the circuit before that. herndon was offended by the kind of apotheosis that we can underwent. he wanted to remind people that lincoln was a human being, man cannot god. he spent three or four years of cellaring kentucky, indiana, and southern illinois for people who had known lincoln in his youth and as a young man. all of this was great and most of what we know about his life before he got to springfield were certainly before he became a state legislator we know from his interviews of so-called informants. unfortunately he use a lot of this in ways that baffled and irritated the lincoln family. the articles published claimed that lincoln -- it is impossible

to list all the claims, that he was the sun -- not the son of thomas lincoln but the son of another man, that he was a so-called illegitimate child and his mother had been born illegitimately. the claim that lincoln had never loved mary todd lincoln and the love of his life had been a young woman named in the wreckage to have died when lincoln was off in springfield or at the old state capital for his first term in the legislature and never get over the loss of an. he claims that lincoln had syphilis. it was not clear to the family why this was helpful. he tried to make him a very alert the figure. the family was absolutely furious. they also look to these interviews and thought that there is no possible way that people could remember with any precision somebody whom they had no expectation would never rise that far and one of his

informants said something really telling lori said, i'm sorry. i wish i could learn more, but when i knew him and was just for a year in our early twenties and i had no idea that he would be president someday. so they relied instead on a vast body of lincoln's papers and any kind of primary sources they could get there hands on, scouring the country by posting advertisements, looking for circulars to used bookstores, by talking to all friends, increasingly people are finding as their parents died diaries, letters and manuscripts in attics, in boxes, under beds and have collected all of this and added to the archives. the oversized first floor study soon came to accommodate one of the largest private collections of civil war documentation and scholarship in the country. later when he lived in washington, when he served as

assistant secretary of state and again after 1885 onward he and nikolai would -- nicolay would walk between each other's houses. so at this point hay had married a very wealthy woman and built a mansion. henry adams and he built side-by-side mansions in washington. that is on the site where the two mansion stood. it is not the actual mansions. i1885 veteran some 500,000 words a biography by were scarcely be the first year of the civil war. he grew increasingly concerned and felt what he needed was an incentive to bring the project to a close. smith and gilder, the publisher and editor respectively of the century magazine which was the nation's most prominent and white is circulation magazine at that point provided that motivation.

we want your life of lincoln. we must have it. if you say so we will give you all the profit. $57,000. i'm sure you have had officer would have enjoyed that. in $1,885. almost from the start it was extremely controversial. by virtue of their exhaustive treatment of lincoln's political career them managed to steer into the national consciousness episodes that have larsa been unknown to the public and themes and arguments that would influence scholars and historians for generations. among the many contributions made to our share historical consciousness were revelations that seward and drafted the closing lines of the inaugural but the president-elect and did those lines and turn them into the work of genius that we know and as.

they explain to us that they were the first to report george mcclellan's glorious assurance that he could do it all when i gave him command of the union army as low as the army of the potomac. the first to reveal a lincoln's great distress early in the war when washington d.c. was cut off from the north and the president was keeping an anxious vigil for the troops and said why don't they come. the biographer's offered unprecedented insight into linkage decision making in the investment a black soldiers and get an insider's view of this interaction of the union army at command. above all what they did was create a master narrative that continues to command serious scrutiny more than a century after its introduction. populating his cabinet with former opponents for the republican presidential nomination he demonstrated his discernment and magnanimity in choosing men who he did not know, recognize them as governors, senators, and

statesman while they yet looked upon him as a simple frontier lawyer and a rival tomb chance had transformed the honored that they fell do themselves. effectively they presage the popular argument that begin formed the so-called team of rivals and insisted the strong personalities and talents who constituted his inner circle did not always appreciate what they called a stronger well and more delicate tax that inspire and guided the mall. that is the way the profession should work. she won a terrific iteration of that argument you will find her but far more engaging and entertaining. it was hate and nicolay who developed this piece is first. they gave prominent place to the elephant in the room. a few white americans were interested in discussing that topic, and his discussion would form the backdrop of lincoln's

political rise. he stated that it is now universally understood if not conceded that the rebellion 1961 was begun for the sole purpose of defending the preceding state institution of african slavery and making them the nucleus and a great slave empire. in the context of the 1880's it was a somewhat controversial assertion. breaking their own rule hay gave credence to lincoln's cousin who recall the journey that had been taken when they were hired to escort a bargain goods down the mississippi river. it was then that is many years claimed that lincoln first saw african slaves chained come maltreated, with, and scores. in his heart he bled. i can say knowing that that it was on this trip that these first formed his opinion of slavery. that story large the comes from hay and nicolay. now has an antebellum politician

he was not a radical but he did baldy a firm that african-americans are human beings and entitled to the natural rights. a secretary follow that moral and intellectual even a during the war they had not been as liberal. that was something he did to them posthumously and something that they came to believe in pretty strongly. a lot of the things that you gain a sense of when you read diaries and letters against the history of lincoln is they often miss the significance of events they had participated in in real time, actors and stirring times, though i finally realized they are so. in november 1863 the secretary that accompanied the lincoln to gettysburg, pennsylvania where he delivered a memorial address dedicating the soldiers cemetery, they did not remember much of it because they had been out drinking and/or severely and over the next morning.

this was a political event and it was their job to go out drinking with the many governors , politicians, congressman, newspaper editors who would converge there. their goal was to work that political crown. nevertheless they did not remember much of the days progress because they had been severely hanover. in their book a dedicated 13 pages to it. clearly they had come after the fact to understand it had been a tremendously important moment, although in their diaries it is clear they did not recognize the significance of the event. part of the project was to take down lincoln's biggest attractors, the biggest of whom would have been george mcclellan who cast himself as a hero of the war. had lincoln listened to him no more would have been over sooner by contrast they basically wrote him up as an inept general given

to divisions and what they called hallucinations of overwhelming force opposing in, a man who rarely estimated the force as less than double its actual size. it was hay and nicolay it is was the now famous story about lincoln's call on the general and his house in 1861 when mcclellan refused to come downstairs and it was they who disclosed to the public that a union private had discovered the battle plans. and so as they rode he not only knew of the division but he knew where its trains, rearguard, and cavalry were, where they were to march and hauled and where they would join the main body. billington whom they introduced to the nation was a death political operator exerting poll to have control daily and hourly

he effectively cut the sense that they introduced to the country the abraham lincoln who we all know today, a storied individual, volumes numbering of retain, a million words, and basically sought to establish his everlasting greatness. yet they would continue to be and to insist on is fundamental humanity. in the case of lincoln has and that of all heroic percentages a certain element of the legend mingles with regis fame. they affirm that he was a man and not god. in decades after their death they left behind eight pieces that remained embedded in historical consciousness to this day. the rendering of lincoln is basically the lincoln memorial, a man endowed with and common humanity but it was fundamentally flesh and blood to be taken barely have claimed to know him better. so it is little one to -- little

wonder that day i left lingering. it would not be until 1947 and any others dollar was able to touch, like that, or consult the papers of the lincoln presidency essentially because of his creed they enjoyed the plain field long after they died. as for what happened, he gave the better part of his letter life, first as a close advisor and and as keeper of the flame. shortly before he died he wrote to a former staff member and said, i don't let any unsatisfied ambitions worry me. he died that year shortly after president mckinley was assassinated. he lived until 1905 and went on to achieve considerable wealth and success. he wrote another diary injury. i say to myself that i should not rebel at the thought of my

life ending at this time. i have lived to be old, something and never expected. many blessings, success beyond all against my boy had, death is the common law and what is universal ought not to be deemed in misfortune to be did instead of confronting it with dignity and philosophy acclaim instinctively to life and things of life as if i had not had my chance at happiness. these were two extraordinary figures. will me think about the business of presidential legacy making. president bush just opened his. you live only a mile from one of the great presidential research centers, the carter center in no small measure helped president

carter to a firm and shore up his legacy. we have always managed history and legacy. and those presidents to die early, lincoln, roosevelt, kennedy relied on families and needs to do so as well. when i think about their relationship i think of the relationship and the partnership between jacqueline kennedy onassis and arthur schlesinger and theodore sorensen and ted weiss or eleanor roosevelt relationships and a number of other people who helped to define the legacy. and so my hope for this book is that it will help us to remember that lincoln was not always remembered as we remember and today there were vast effort that went into that enterprise. i would love to take some questions if there are any. [applause]

>> i think he was trying to do a different project. a very lively account. we're looking at different questions using the same people, but it is a beautiful read. the biography is magnificent. if you are interested in a comprehensive -- i should not say this. if you're interested in a comprehensive biography don't buy mind, by his, but you want to read both. he did a number of other things that i do not cover.

a presidential aide and a great diplomat which is something i only cover in passing, i noted poet, but he stopped writing for writing in the vernacular of his native illinois. he pioneered the practice of writing prose and poetry in that kind of native southern illinois vernacular. he has this remarkable relationship south sphere. a tremendous hot life outside of lincoln.

hmm a different but terrific bo. >> he said that they had determined it would be fact based and not just anecdotal. to what extent is there writing used and was used at that time and still used today for researchers. >> extensively. hay was a beautiful rider but most feel short-story writer, sas. i would not say it was particularly gripping. there were sections of the book that were basically letters. the ten volumes, i would estimate that three or four volumes as direct quotations. they had notes on the side of the book that sort of cited the

sources said the footnotes or endnotes. so that was basically an tell -- how most people were able to access the lincoln papers. they did publish a collected works of lincoln. they put out what they claim are all of lincoln's personal writings. which pieces of his writing more important. in the decade after the road people tended to look at his early life. that is where you could scour up traditional resources.

so nicolai thought this was hilarious. serbs fox then she could possibly do this to turn the ball kinds are written materials commercially speeches, letters. so this is where scholars until the 1940's or able to break new ground. shut off for other than what they had written. >> going to their volumes, sort of an experience. any piece is that you can

identify from the book that a river really shown and can send -- >> certainly, and that is a good question. i enjoyed letters and diaries far more than the actual biography ice. where they broke their own rule and relied on their memory it got exciting. the chapters that deal with the nominating convention are tremendously exciting. nicolay was in the room. all of these descriptions, lincoln suddenly pulls ahead, the third ballot where he describes the silence that befalls the wigwam in chicago and you could hear the reporters he does it from a third person voice of god. he describes how you could hear the telegraph operators clicking our results. that is tremendously exciting as

you can feel the moment and ironically is when they break with their own convention when hay describes personal recollections of conversations he had with lincoln. if you match up his diary against the way they wrote it in the but it is written pretty free form. it is -- he was basically just taking rough notes. he flashed a this out and they kind of violated their own rule, but that is where it gets truly exciting. they could not really help themselves. >> this special bill order, 15 that was initiated by sherman, what is their treatment of that in the volumes that they had. what is your field of lincoln's position. were he not assassinated what is your assumption from that the

trail. as you say, his legacy was not seen as a great humanitarian or save your of blacks at that time he has become that. what is your feel of his actual feeling on that issue? >> they friend that on the larger context of his war policies. they follow the logic through and through. they had to describe northern democratic opposition. they took care to follow the logic. although it is growing concern to about slavery resulted in his advocacy, as war policy had been to use emancipation and the tools of the emancipation and the subsequent implications of it in order to bring the south to its knees. and so these orders were perfectly constitutional. he had the right, as did his

field generals to expropriate property, redistribute property, to liberate slaves when they saw them and where they actually took land. they framed it in a very constitutional fashion. the same time there were other pieces of the book that trend all question of slavery. but even 30 years later at think they were aware of the people still wanted -- one of the raps against lincoln was that he had been as simple it -- simple country lawyer. there were careful to make sure and explained that he was a master lawyer, politician, military leader who understood the expansive war powers that he enjoyed and use them. as for -- you're basically asking what is reconstruction policy would have been had he lived which is the biggest. what would have happened. i think it is purely speculation it is fair to say that it would not have looked like what andrew johnson looked like. and we laugh, but at one point that was the old historiography

of reconstruction, to assume that somehow andrew johnson was carrying out what abraham lincoln would have done and that republicans like that would -- we have long since gone past that history. it would be fair to say that lincoln extemporized a lot, that he made stuff up on the fly as he had to do under those circumstances, and it is clear that is growth was accelerating days before a died. he had the conversation about allowing african-americans to vote, once it were educated and landowning. it is easy to imagine that he would have evolved in a way that would have fallen somewhere between the radical and moderate factions of the party. it is a great tragedy that we will never know. >> where berg the lincoln piper's? >> they were safe in their homes. it was a terrible thing. they swapped them off.

working as a grand marshal of the supreme court he had an office in the capital. and so they decided that they would keep the bulk of them there. the theory was that houses burned down frequently. they figured the capitol was made out of marble. they had a close scared because before they came into possession of them robert todd lincoln captain and has offices in chicago. that, of course, did not work out so well during the great chicago fire when the only barely got amount. they realized they had to put them somewhere more safe. after nikolai died he took possession of all of the papers. after he died his family turned them over to robert flawed -- robert todd lincoln. for about ten years the lincoln family was desperately trying to find one of the last to -- they knew there were five copies of the gettysburg address. there were missing one and could not find it and had no idea where it was.

his daughter helped the family tried to look for them, could not find them. sometime around 1914 his daughter sheepishly told robert that she had found it because apparently your father had captive somewhere else. i think he probably intended to return and at some point but could not bear to put it with the rest of the collection which is funny when you remember that he be not really remember when it was delivered. [laughter] >> your thoughts on this. all of history, what made you focus on the secretaries of lincoln? >> people have written great books on white house staff. a fine book called camelot scored which looks at the kennedy staff. i think this is a time that always fascinated me. the last thing the world needs is yet another book on lincoln and yet i wrote one.

i thought that this was a piece that will allow me to look at the development of lincoln's historical legacy but at the same time be attentive to the important role of staff members playing politics. i was more interested in that legacy. having also worked in politics and a staff position for a number of politicians i found these to to be recognizable and attractive. and all of their importance, arrogance, impetuousness, all of it was totally recognizable. it was fun to live through their eyes and see it through their eyes. also, they were very, very witty , incisive direst send letter writers and are fun to read. you get a picture of the lincoln whitehouse. they are the only people who can give you that portrait and wrote about it in real time. [inaudible question] >> henry todd lincoln.

>> sure. it did not get along well at all. it was a very poisonous relationship in part because like most men of their generation did not take women seriously or appreciate the role she played in his early political career and the influence she had ever the president when he was in the white house. a lot of their conflict were of a personal nature. they clashed on the use of white house expenditure accounts. heard this position and there's mixed like water and oil. it was a tough relationship, and she did not like that the lead in the white house although that was the custom at the time. that having been said, they protected her fiercely. they were very conscious of their responsibility to robber to try to help fix that even as he had a difficult relationship with his mother.

>> did they ever address the idea of a lost cause there were giving to the legitimacy of that? >> this was the time that a lost cause cousin to being. part of what they're writing against was not the historians and the commentators but also way in which the war was being remembered. i think that the lost cause was one piece of it. it really offended by this vote in the 1880's for battlefield commemorations and reunions. ..

so i think that is what you particularly concerned with tears in successful in the way and --

until the 19. we have time for one more areas on. i think we do one more state what did they do immediately after the assassination was an intended date. they were exhausted so lincoln's for he died on and is. he pointed neglect to be the consult general in paris and pointed a two and a exhausted and didn't want to do is turn in at the time they couldn't have foreseen would have been what occurred that wanted to seize the world. i have a long-suffering young

and then he rode faithfully every other day is in illinois and is heard as his letters to her that we have recollections of the war but there was an exchange earlier to the re-election or the duration is right for you most of her letters as are in we only have the one i've dialog you are is's pages are a much and is by the way he was in hell that we were growing apart my flat there is a letter her shortly urged the is a diplomatic post so i don't think we can get married yet. because you are invited that he's writing to say and telling him here's where the wedding is going to be an that man.

clearly the conversation the only way he could have gotten married was in white house. there is a will there is a wide and parents of 18 and that is for work for boeing's and paid to determine as home. he went zero for on a is indiana. that is their