those islamist out behind bars onto the streets. . . >> host: peniel joseph, who is this? >> he was born on june 24, 1941 in trinidad. he is early going to become a watershed iconic activist of the civil rights and black power

era. he is popularizing that term on june 15, 1966 in greenwood, mississippi. and he becomes this icon of the late 1960s. carmichael is going to be the most influential since malcolm acts. is friends with martin luther king jr. and he also is a black panther. by 1969 he leaves the united states in west africa. and he has this organizer who changes his name to kwame ture in honor of his political mentors in africa. kwame ture has taken them and he

becomes kwame ture. >> host: what part of the civil rights movement was he involved in? >> guest: is involved in all of it. and that is what is so interesting. when you think about stokely carmichael, he's involved in every major action between 1960 and 1965 with the whole period of civil rights cut in half. he is a demonstrator and involved in the nonviolent coordinating committee and he is a freedom rider and he's arrested on june 8, 1961, and mississippi. it's been weeks and penitentiaries. he is a howard university student activists and part of this group called the nonviolent action group and he spent time in mississippi every single summer or he's working with sharecroppers and young people and is working on voter

registration. and in 1964 he is one of the project directors of the second congressional district in the mississippi delta. so he is really just an extraordinary activist. he is part of the christian leadership conference after montgomery. stokely carmichael and his coworkers going to lawrence county, alabama. a county in the black belt of alabama. and they start independent political organization and that is the beginning of the original black panther party. so when carmichael replaces john lewis, he is now representing the radical faith of the civil rights movement and this militant radical insurgency that will become known as lack power. when we think about carmichael

and civil rights, he is a key organizer and the only major black power figure who had done that kind of day-to-day organizing is a civil rights activist. >> host: what was his relationship? >> guest: they initially had a good relationship with john lewis. they meet in 1961 were john lewis is one of the people who will be on the freedom ride in may of 1961. they're going to go into alabama, there's a couple of buses, a greyhound bus and he will be added dinner. stokely will meet him at that dinner and some of the activist call it the last supper. not counting james farmer, a wars. and as we know subsequently they had lives that were in danger.

they were going to be violently attacked in alabama. stokely eventually would join our crusade by june. and they our friends. he met stokely carmichael in the mississippi jails and they're going to become adversaries by 1956 because stokely is going to run for chairmanship and he's going to replace john lewis. he is a very courageous activists and a heroic figure. certainly he wanted to continue to be chairman. once he is replaced by stokely, there are bad feeling that are a result of that. >> host: wasn't because of the nonviolent of john lewis? >> well, it's not because of the nonviolent. with stokely carmichael replacing him, he was a

day-to-day organizer and by 1965 and 1966, he was going to white house conference is and he's really a figure who is not necessarily in touch with the day-to-day activities the same way that somebody like stokely carmichael is. because what they have experienced on the ground, he says that in the south activist experience raw terror. what he means by that is not only police brutality and from local vigilantes, but fact that the federal government was not as proactive in defending the double rights workers and the struggle for liberation and democracy as they should have been. and it's finally a turning point in 1963. because the local mississippi activist formed the mississippi

freedom democratic party and became a sharecropper from mississippi, she is one of the leading activists and organizers of this democratic party and what they tried to do is really organize an integrated delegation to be seated at the democratic national convention in august of 1964. and so they think that if they play by the rules, the democratic party will allow them to be seated. very famously lyndon johnson said people like hubert humphrey and walter mondale said that they are not core to see because lyndon johnson doesn't want the mississippi regulars were all right and segregationist walkout who walk out of the convention to cause a scene and perhaps cause all the southern delegates walked out. so what happens is that true democracy is lost at the

democratic national convention and the irony is not lost on people like stokely carmichael, but people like activist who were organizing in the south with this and those get really trumped by, ironically, the democratic party and that further radicalized of it. except independently and autonomously. and some people disagree with stokely and it continues to be tied. and we are going to see a push for independent political organizing and eventually black power. >> host: the stokely carmichael have any relationship reign.

>> guest: no, there's no relationship with you and johnson. but certainly they talk about one another extensively and they are aware of it. and we have different interviews and he is very critical. he is a war activist, stokely carmichael, and when you look at the 1960 he is really a major anti-vietnam war activist and vociferously speaking out against the war even before doctor king comes out against the war. and it will be inspirational and not something that they even talk about. >> host: in 1998 c-span interviewed kwame ture at his

home in harlem a few months before he died. >> you set on said on the record that you think the fbi may have given you cancer in a. >> almost certainly. extremely advanced and there's no question after the assassination of martin luther king, they themselves have had to change the method with what they consider to be leaders. and of course one of the best ways to do it. and they say jokingly that the 1600 the indians could catch smallpox and they could give us cancer with their laser beams today. and of course america is involved with a warfare.

>> host: did the fbi watch stokely carmichael? >> guest: absolutely. very famously they have a counterintelligence program that has initially been started in the 1950s and is supposed to be anti-communist. and it quickly becomes something that is used to provide surveillance over civil rights activist and pro-democracy activists and black power revolutionaries and carmichael has an extensive fbi file. the state department, the united states intelligence services, the fbi is watching them all the time, especially for the black power speech of june of 1966. he writes in his own biography how federal agents are drafting

him, cars are constantly behind him. so it's something that takes its toll and he's going to be under surveillance. and that is coming directly from lyndon johnson and his special assistant. so the surveillance is very extensive. and then he famously takes a five month world tour and he travels to cuba and london and vietnam. he's in our area. and then he meets up with them throughout. and so the very difficult process once he becomes this national political leader and this international icon and figure. he is definitely under

surveillance. and so is the south africans dinner. >> host: in your 2010 book, you write that black power did not suddenly appear after 1965 as an alternative and instead of existed alongside the most southern-based counterpart. mutual antagonism cut it off with traditional civil rights leaders and on occasions old camps to form powerful a provisional alliances. >> yes. that is true. when we think about black power and civil rights, one of the interesting parts about this is this idea that civil rights is now in 2014 and has become commemorated. especially between 1954 and 1955, this is a hotly contested

and hotly debated controversial movement. many think that civil rights was the good thing. and many felt that the movement was moving too fast. so 50 years later we have embraced that. black power has not undergone that. it was considered the evil twin of the civil rights movement and the movement that rests a more positive movement to social justice and we think about this, we think of gun toting urban black militants and the black panthers and stokely carmichael when we really need to investigate that movement and watch out unfolded. we really something different and that these were african-american activist and willie black activist, some from the caribbean, some from africa as well.

those who are trying to have radical political transformation. and they argued that civil rights reform was not enough. but they had a relationship with the activist. sometime they straddle those with black power. and we think about what was the black power movement. and it was a call for radical and social and cultural self-determination. and it was a call for them to be able to define this on their own gold strategies and tactics and how they define identity and listen showed and also how they are going to define liberation and freedom. so when we think about that is that even though the term is popularizer 1966, the movement predates stokely carmichael and certainly not the max is the avatar of that movement.

in places like new york and detroit and chicago, oakland, los angeles, and it goes beyond the vote. they are fighting for public schools and police brutality ending and jobs and they're doing all of these movements and political transformation and they are also very intimately understanding the anti-colonial struggles that are happening in africa in the third world. between 1957 in 1962 they're going to be about 25 different african nationstates that achieve independence. sometimes violently and sometimes peacefully. they are conducting the studies and the black power movement is really connected with the black freedom struggle that is going on in america.

so it's going to have many facets. it's going to be radical and revolutionary and there will be some who will be liberal and electing more official politicians. trying to get things elected the least in the late 60s and early 70s. what's interesting is how multifaceted and panoramic it is. and we have streetcorner activist and sharecroppers are part of this black panther party

and you have stokely carmichael at the national level and you also have this everywhere from washington dc to san francisco state and city colleges that are reading this and really this movement for black studies. it's a multiple multifaceted movement and ultimately a movement that is trying to redefine not just american democracy but americans died in the united states. and what does this mean. >> in your first book, waiting until the midnight hour, we talked about the importance of this in 1955. >> that's right. it's very important because this is a conference that talks about

third world solidarity with a population of older a billion people getting together and they are really making this argument and they want to be out side of the sphere of influence from either western capitalism and it would really impress upon people this and we have this kind of united front with the political people. not just african americans, but people who are oppressed, people of color. and we see these reverberations of the black power movement and really in the 19 season 70s in terms of social movements that are doing that there have to be these alliances that are across

the board. >> how much fighting was there within these movements? >> we think about civil rights and black power and we were big and broad, things that we need to end police brutality and we need economic justice for all people in the united states, but especially poor black people were not getting their fair share. and there was differences in how this can be achieved. there is a different strategic debate in terms of nonviolent integration with racial separatism and it's really more complex than that. with civil rights activist and

there was a perspective that america was this tidy that could be reformed and transform. if you have the right legislation and the right court or judicial victories and that's where we talk about the civil rights movement and all the legislation that has passed. and the supreme court decisions in the brown decision and may 17, 1954. july 2, 1964, we think about the voting rights act as well and we think about the open housing act of 1968. that is a perspective that says the state can be reformed. the way in which the state or institution treat african-americans and racial justice can win now, when we think about black power radicals and revolutionaries, they have a different perspective a lot of

time. which does lead to fighting. from that active the united states is not a true genuine democracy but a gap between democratic realities and the postwar empire. the black power revolutionaries, the united states was an imperial power. the war in vietnam showed an honest though black people living in urban ghettos and how they were treated as well. and it is a movement that would be critical because they made the argument that they had never achieved quality with african-americans. what's interesting about these either the divergences are based upon different perspectives of

america's history and african-americans in american history. someone like martin luther king junior recounted his struggle. and we sort of stopped in time. from 1963, with the march on washington, where he's opening up that speech with now is the time to make real the promise of democracy. and we remember that i have a dream that he's talking about reformation in this on cash check with insufficient funds and he says that we refuse to believe that the untrained think of democracy as bankrupt. but we find a much angrier and much more vociferous individual that many refuse to acknowledge. in this is part of the triple

threat with racism and materialism and 400,000 people are there. and they meet up afterwards and he said that doctor king just came out 11 days earlier in new york and said that we are going to more publicly talk about the vietnam war. certainly those at the time said that he was following stokely carmichael with the republic criticism. >> host: waiting until the midnight hour came out in 2000

and. and malcolm asked would murder people's champion was confident exterior and perpetual youth would symbolize the historic progress in uncivil, is of afro-americans. >> guest: it is definitely part of the black movement. malcolm asked concluded that figure. i would argue that it's very interesting. because what happened to malcolm in a way parallels what happened with imagination. we think about the aftermath in february 21, 1935, to help these

people died in the same manner that his rhetoric advocated in the same way. and it was published by this after a big publishing company actually drops the contract. there was this major figure within the african-american community. and we really had become rehabilitated in the national content where it had been part of an acceptable figure.

and in terms of books what we have tried to do with different authors and historians, it's really invest gating a three-dimensional figure, that is not just the iconic figure but he says organizer and political activist and he talked about african revolutionaries and really accuse him of racism and human rights violations.

even before he breaks with the nation. it's hugely important and as a figure, but i still think that we are all coming to terms with just how complex a figure he was in really coming to terms with a portrait of malcolm that goes beyond the cliché. saying that such a powerful figure, the most comfortable with the united states of america. and if you are around him his energy is usually captivated. so these are very impressive and important. and there is a relationship between him and people like stokely carmichael who have seen

him and stokely says famously that if you're going to help organize it as long as he can be on the front row when malcolm comes to speak and malcolm is debating. black social democratic activists, the main organizers of the march on washington and had spent time with the conscientious objectives and influence that vary greatly. and when he sees him speak and find out who that is, he says that is who i want to be when i grow up. so it's very interesting that we have debated this in 1961 and

it's been hugely important because he is influenced but he's also listening to malcolm asked to become further radicalized a growing conscience. >> host: good afternoon and welcome to our in-depth program. this is our monthly program where we invite an author on to talk about his or her body of work. this month we have peniel joseph. his first book came out in 2006, waiting until the midnight hour and dark days and nights, from black power to barack obama in 2010. in his most recent book is stokely, it is life. it is brand-new to this month. we are going to put their phone numbers on the screen. 202, 585, 3800. and for those of you further out west, if you want to send in a

tweet or e-mail, apple tv is our twitter handle. if you like to make comment there, front and center on our home page. finally you can send an e-mail to at booktv@c-span.org. what do you teach? >> guest: i teach courses on the black power movement and the civil rights movement and african-american history and a seminar on the black panther party and african-american history and politics. >> host: you also teach at harvard when i. >> guest: i have been a fellow at harvard but no, i teach as well. >> host: were to do it at school? >> guest: i went to stony brook university for underground. and i received my phd and

definitely want to shout out as well. i grew up in queens, new york. my mother is watching and it's hugely influential in my life. african-american boys, she raised two of us. my other brother is a doctor outside of baltimore and my mother was very keen on me becoming a historian and activist because she worked on this endless pot of this situation. she basically was my first

history teacher. also the person who taught me to believe in social justice and standing up for your own belief. >> host: you reference being on the picket line with her. >> guest: yes, some strikes that were going along right there with her. and that occurred more than once. it showed me growing up in new york city, especially during the 1980s. some of which continue to reverberate in that. but it's still very acutely since the 1980s. from that perspective ronald reagan was president and all of these different things were going on. so it's really a very grounding experience to be in a family

that respected history and really the lives and struggles showing that was a great time to be on. the people that were really struggling. >> host: you consider yourself an activist? is not just my voice considered myself an activist in that context. so many women and men who are scholars and poets and artists and she was an activist in her own way and i still try even as an academic. but beyond the confines of the

ivory or ebony towers, to speak at community centers and to do praecox with those who are struggling to want this information. and it's also an honor to be with someone who is a historian and who is a teacher and a writer. and i think that that is our number one thing. getting her phd in so many african-american people were so proud and i would try to tell the story of the black freedom struggle intimate that my life's work. so it's very important to me that this is not just his profession to me that really a vocation that i want to share that with the general public and also people who are poor and those who might be incarcerated.

people who really don't have the same access and privileges that i have had. the. >> host: young since you have been a part of this. we have an e-mail. three years before the rise of the black power movement, to what extent did his political legacy is a black scholar and intellectual influence the black power movement with stokely carmichael. >> guest: i think it is a great question. those of us who are african-american intellectuals could not imagine living in a world where they did not exist. he is the leading sociologist political scientist, and really

one, and one of the best that the united states has ever produced. right there with people like william james and the definitive transformation intellectual of our time. so he certainly influences the black power movement whether it's black reconstruction in revisiting is a history of reconstruction blocking activism at the center of that in criticizing the way in which they prevented blacks and whites from getting together after the aftermath of the civil war. in terms of placing black people at the center of the study of history and sociology and

political science and so it's hugely important. stokely in the 1960s references this double consciousness and certainly he had talked about boys being one of his influences. he writes so much and he's so prodigious. not to mention the activism with the naacp. and he has 10 africanism and he ends up in ghana and he lived 95 years of age. he just has an incredible activist and scholar and not only does the civil rights movement but the movement of black power as well post back

what about garvey's influence? >> guest: garvey and marcus garvey is a jamaican activist and a radical who comes to the united states really does meet up in washington and he really is inspired by booker t. washington's determination. but he takes this in different ways and he has this critique and wants to build black institution that are robustly or even defiantly part of this. so he talks about how you can accomplish what you will. so in a way he is the quintessential black national and pan african asked he speaks defiantly and really sparks reasoning that becomes the

largest black movement in american history and it's really a global movement. they are building businesses and the father of malcolm x. and mother of him go out in nebraska to pioneer and they founded this and they could not have had this without garvey. so really organizing people to believe that this can be created in a way that not this parallels the white institution but redefines what it means to be black. >> host: from black base and white knights, you say obama has accepted the civil rights and black power movement and obama himself represents this.

>> guest: yes, i think that's a quote that has sometimes been misunderstood. and some people read that and think that i'm trying to make a claim that obama, barack obama, whose politics are neoliberal is somehow an inheritor of the revolutionary legacy for someone like stokely carmichael or the black panthers. and he purposely had his iconography and he talked about the fact that howie was the generation that metaphorically represented the and he really used the civil rights movement in the iconography in a way that

the president had ever used it before. and he never really talks about black power. so the argument that i made is that it wasn't just double right that transformed the result landscape, but also lack power radicalism. and it really push the envelope area people like stokely were forced -- they force united states into a different posture. that wasn't necessarily anything that revolutionaries wanted. sometimes the reverberations of the activism took directions that they never would have anticipated were appreciated were approved a very but certainly they were defiantly central when we think of african elected officials and black studies being incorporated and

institutionalized in american higher education. we also think of racial identity and african-americans going from being people of color in the 1940s or 1950s, it becomes central to identities. and that is the nomenclature of the time that was central to reimagine it in the united states and blackeye kennedy in the united states. from that perspective obama is the beneficiary of not just double right but a black power and somehow would approve of obama politics but that he actually benefited from a changed racial landscape.

>> host: this is our book selection for the month of march. brand-new on the market. if you'd like to join the conversation throughout the month, pickup the book and you can go to the tv.org and you will be able to make comments and we will post discussion questions throughout the month as well and we will invite professor joseph to participate as well and keep an eye on that and answer some of the questions. so it is our book club selection through the month of august. we have an e-mail here is to continue to tie all this together a little bit. good afternoon, professor joseph. i have two questions for you in regards to the black panther party. the first question is after the release, what is your assessment

of his decision to relocate the members to oakland and the question is if you were to live to 2014, with what would julie newton's opinion have been of the state of black america. this is from hakim who commented. >> guest: i think that the movement can be a mistake vis-à-vis not understanding the potential. and it's really a decision that is founded in oakland which all are in existence to calm and relocate and when you look at sources of this all across the united states, that is the decision makes in the early

70s. i think that that will be a mistake and many historians say that that decision is really negative and negatively impacts the panthers because a core groups of activists around the country. and the panthers are really in a transition by the early 1990s really for one more pragmatic reform. they make the argument that oakland is going to be the basis of operations for this revolution and they are doing continuous community programs with massive giveaways of turkey dinners and food and close. certainly closing the chapter is not all chapters are open.

some have continued to operate and function and then some have a negative effect. especially when it comes to things like incarceration, we are in a dire state of emergency. one of the reasons why the templars were founded was to end police brutality. this is the impact of the drug war and the victims of that drug war. he would say that it's in dire straits and it's part of that is to advocate in the 1960s and 70s, that it's still relevant to the black community today. >> host: to julie newton and bobby seale remained friends? >> guest: well there was a break. there certainly was a break.

it depends on what historical sources or memoirs you have listened to. and certainly he believed that by 1974 and he dies in 1989 and they leave acrimoniously. so part of this is connected to the struggle in his own struggle in his own personal demon that he is struggling with area so they did not stay friends throughout. >> host: martin, our first caller. please go ahead. >> caller: thank you, professor. i disagree with you in so many areas. i really don't know where to begin. i think people like yourself do more harm in the long run to the black community than they help. i think that you suffer from what we call the plantation

mentality. when you think that the government is the answer to your problems are i would love to see the black community take on some of the values of the present day white community and think of themselves not as afro-americans but as americans. i was a former member of 1199 and it's tinged with one or communist 1199. advocating the social justice. nothing just about social justice is not just a form of communism in the new world. >> host: i think we got your point there. what did you think of stokely carmichael? >> caller: absolutely. many were nothing but racist drones. they did serve a useful purpose

but i think that most of them had done harm for the black people than good. >> guest: i think you get that kind of perspective. but social justice is not communism. their other people who leave and it there are also liberals and conservatives and independents who believe in social justice and it's not just people who are doing this and people that i grew up around as well. and they have many different political affiliations and beliefs. they believe in health care and education and especially for those that are poor and marginalized.

>> post that we have gone from richmond, virginia. >> caller: how are you doing. i want to question. you have mentioned why have blacks and islamists ignored certain aspects. like they never existed and there would be no person named malcolm asked without the nation of islam. there would be just a guy who would probably die within needle in his arm. and there's just no question. >> host: are you a member of the nation of islam? >> caller: no, i'm not. >> guest: i think that when we think about how the nation talks

about the books of biographies of elisha mohammed and books that look at the nation of islam and malcolm asked, and i say that part of it is tapping the history. because the nation will start in the 1930s and it will proceed in one fashion up until his death in 1975. and then it will be transformed by one of his sons and then louis farrakhan is going to reignite and restart the nation of islam that is based on the belief that he is the messenger in the 1980s and i think that part of it has to do with passing a complicated history. certainly i do agree that when we speak with people about this.

who are more interested in the in the nation of islam and certainly as an activist and who he becomes, the nation goes on to talk about who he becomes. >> host: we have this tweet. speaking about the influence that they had on the activism of african liberation ending apartheid. >> guest: yes, miriam is very influential with certain cultural figures and artist and activist in their own right. and that is his first wife. and she was nine years older than she had been listening to me in the 1950s and he famously says that he is going to marry that woman and he actually does end up marrying

her. he was introduced to her by harry belafonte who had introduced them to a global audience. so he was interested in anti-apartheid activism and she had spoke out forcefully against them and were living in exile. and also she's this beautiful woman who is considered as world-renowned individual and someone who wants to be around him. john f. kennedy makes a point of having her come and she's just so proud in 1962. and so it's very important because in a way they provided stokely with this and she is a

more well-known leader of stokely carmichael. by marrying her with different treatments like an official diplomat and they both are. but they will treat you very important and they get the more personalized understanding of the struggle in africa. always saying that black people wherever they are, they are african. and that we are all africans. whether from harlem or haiti or birmingham, alabama, and so what's interesting is their aim is crucial and they are international celebrities. one thing that i think is interesting about politics and

movements in the 60s in a way that is different from our contemporary society is that activism is something that is in a large manner considered to be having an impact on popular culture. and carmichael is that. this is not to diminish him but just to give a context of things, what happens when this activist has done on the cover of ebony magazine and others in all these different magazines and someone who is very enormously charismatic. how would they proceed both within the black community and

there is an iconography of the black panther party not only just a political party but a party that that is very seductive and sexy. and so we think about all of that being wrapped up in here. and she's someone who has a very keen understanding and becomes very close and miriam comes a real conduit to die. >> they did not have any children. and they did not have any children. >> the younger ones i am not

sure. but what from what i understand, between london and new york. >> host: and they participate in your book? >> guest: no, they did not. >> caller: to hear you express this in such an intelligent place, many of my comrades have ran crazy or have been disillusioned. to hear this, we have completely ignored people like malcolm and stokely. >> host: why were you a member of this? >> caller: i grew up in los angeles and i saw a lot of craziness that the lapd projected.

and it changed my thinking. i grew up in a house where people said be proud to be american, and i saw that there were so many hypocrisies that america was not living up to it. and then when the war came there were a lot of friends that went off and die. and all this push me towards that. >> host: we doing today? >> caller: i'm an artist. but still active. >> host: what is the importance of oakland to your generation of african-americans? >> caller: i was always drawn here because there were cultural and clinical things happening area and we were traveling from los angeles to come here for african liberation day and other cultural and political events. to open has always been the

harlem of the west coast. >> guest: that's a great perspective. i think that oakland is very neat. i appreciate the comments. we talked about carmichael, but certainly anita blackwell, so many different activist were a big part of this movement. and so i think that there are so many different people who were a part of this and they have not been given their dues. so i think that part of what is important about talking about people like stokely carmichael, and i think that i try to do this in the biography is look at the activist who held to shape

than and who they helped to shape. it's always this relational struggle and it's really the history of the way in which these activists move up with different people who become teachers. it ended mississippi he found teachers. and these are people who are not formally educated. and these are people that we were not formally educated by. they were the best teachers that he had ever had. and not just him, but people that were part of this. one of the things that makes it such an important figure is that he's able to be humble enough and have enough humility to learn from people who are sharecroppers. these are people who were in the united states in the 1960s. and it was extraordinary. so i think it is important to

give any credence to honor what the activists were able to do to transform america. >> host: he grew up in l.a. what are the important of the african-american community to match and lighted the start in a >> guest: and started august 11, 1965. most of the racial disturbances were a result of disputes between local residents and they had had a pattern of abuse for decades. and they were just trying to enforce the law. and so there was another incident of a local individuals were trying to display and it will explode into this and really the largest civil

insurrection up until that point. so up until that point, it's a game changer on multiple levels. martin luther king jr., he cut short this to watch. heckled by local grassroots people there saying that they don't want to hear about nonviolent and there are a lot of interesting examples with social injustice and the impact of social injustice on this neighborhood in los angeles. birmingham had had rioting were civil disturbances depending on your ideological perspective and it's so big and the irony is that it comes five days after the voting rights act. so in a way and it's also

government access. and the great society is giving too much too fast to african-americans and they were having a great deal of variety. but it was really emblematic of racial segregation and jim crow and economic injustice and it had come boiling over the top. so it wasn't a people have gotten too much access, but that they had too little and it becomes a result of that. and so when we think about terms like burn baby burn and all these are prices that could be used as this, that becomes part of the debate and the idea of the new right in modern-day

conservatism because it becomes a symbol of what people are saying as part of this and liberalism just haven't gone far not. so the activists are an example of the language of the unheard and very interesting in terms of this depending on your viewpoint. it really gives us a perspective of what you think of the 60s and the aspirations for american societies. as an example of excess or people were so oppressed and had so much social misery that the only way that they could respond a century of this kind of segregation and brutalities with that kind of violence.

>> host: a reminder that you can send us a tweet apple tv or send us a question apple tv.com. raymond, hello. >> caller: hello, how are you. i just wanted to say how proud i am of you. all the information that he has. i found out that we have the same ethnic origin and i am proud of being a haitian. i just wanted to lay. [speaking in native tongue]

[speaking in native tongue] i went to toughs university and i apologize. >> host: all right. >> caller: he i just wanted to say that he's the greatest. >> guest: they do so much. >> host: what did she say? >> guest: basically in haitian sometimes people say in haitian creole and basically that he is proud of me and we'll get in touch with me and to keep doing what i'm doing. >> host: i've got several french words in there as well.

>> guest: yes, both haitian and french are languages of haiti. so i grew up listening to my mom who speaks english and french and spanish. >> guest: and i'm very proud to be haitian. because i definitely consider myself location and african-american, having been born in the united states and one in new york city. and i think it provides a unique cultural advantage point to investigate this. especially someone like stokely carmichael, he is from trinidad. this gritty and background is a big part of who he is. washington dc and then lives in

africa for 30 years and there's an extraordinary journey there and all the while he continues to say that he is an african and certainly haiti because it is 1804 in the first black republic in the western hemisphere and the colony of slaves to the public of citizens is very much an important marker. >> host: in your view, where it is stokely carmichael rank it comes to the black power movement? >> guest: i think he rings high. when we think about the 60s, we call him the last icon of the 60s which is a triumvirate of these watershed activists in these truly global activists who have described the world stage

in the also a key figure between civil rights and black power. the fact that he leaves for africa has reduced in the american imagination in the western imagination has placed among the activists. because if you're not here in the united states or if you have not been martyred, the fact that he continues to live in organize and believe in the expiration date make some something and someone who baffles in the mid-moment. so i think he is an incredibly important figure because he is the only major icon activist who

is a day-to-day organizer and some of the biggest hotspots in the south. so you turn up in mississippi and you see stokely carmichael and you are a freedom rider and you see them there. and so there is an incredible victory and by the time he becomes this leader in 1963. the people knew who stokely carmichael was. he included him in his masterpiece which came out in 1965 as one of the young leaders that were included in the anthology. and it takes it to a transcendent level. >> host: next call comes from michael in alabama. >> caller: good afternoon.

doctor peniel joseph, it is a genuine privilege and honor to talk to you. i have two big questions which i will try to make as brief as possible if the people at c-span don't mind. giving them a chance to ask a question before the second one. and he wants to get out. let me apologize for his implication that the government -- blacks expect government to solve all the problems was not what he feel the need to apologize? >> guest: i guess before the region where i come from. conservatism is so rampant that they almost make it out to be

unregulated free-market capitalism. but the united way me such as afterschool programs that demand they do something as a volunteer >> host: i apologize, can you bring this to a conclusion. >> caller: yes, the past causes of so many problems today, any generation of children don't know about and barely remember from history classes the way it was when i was a kindergartner during much of the time that doctor joseph mentioned it. and i heard vietnam all the time on tv without knowing the context. when he addressed some of these

causes that largely white male has done to today's inner city problems during that time? such as ed moses or whatever moses. the new york state superintendent two post up what is your second question? >> caller: right-wing secular conservatives is what i love to see. those nra members that are in different and secular liberals in hollywood with the screen directors guild. >> host: okay, we are just a little bit tight on time. what would you like to respond to? >> guest: talking about one of the points of what happened in the 1960s where it's not just the black community acting

federal government handouts. and when we think about the nation, are our nation is founded in racial slavery area gives us a little snapshot and a portrait of that. something that i was too hard to watch and i think that that response is an example of americans really remembering the crucible of this country and the core of our national saga is it savory that produces a system of white supremacy in the united states. when we think about the civil rights movement after the civil war was brought, there is going to be a century of racial segregation. so reconstruction is supposed to bring about citizenship. and african americans died, they did not have their freedom

handed to them on a silver platter, they fought and strolled and die for it. but immediately after the civil war, what we saw was the rise of white supremacy politically and culturally and socially and economically. so there's going to be another century of rule racial segregation and on employment that black men can only get for labor and this is the united states of america. the wind of the in the home of the brave area so there are huge fundamental contradiction or it's and by the time we get to the civil rights movement of the 19th these, even if there is a whole group of americans who don't realize that backdrop, they are actually participating and not because that history was set up for economic hierarchy

and things like white privilege that became extended after world war ii even for those that had previously been discriminated against. people like italians and irish and jewish americans and this idea and this identity of being white american becomes much more of a multiethnic identity. yet african-americans are still on the lowest common denominator economically and politically and socially and racially. so it's interest in its that it's not that the 60s are social activists demanding that federal governments do more or have more handout, but trying to collectively reimagine american society and american democracy and produce an america that works for all people irrespective of race or gender or class or background.

and from that perspective you can understand civil rights and black power much more easily. it's not about handout or people waiting on the government, but really demanding a government that talks about what democracy was supposed to be and what citizenship was supposed to be and what its own constitution proclaims and it's not just me saying this area doctor king says that, all of these activists and organizations. >> host: we have an e-mail, with all these strong black man, what happened to the black power movement and how did they fail to empower a generation of younger men who have been in dire straits for more than 22,000 dead in the last five years. >> guest: there are a lot of strong black women here do. when we think about why power, everyone from angela davis and there are so many different

individuals who are part of it. they are in the biography as well in terms of specifically black men and black males in initiatives and obviously they're all of these tragedies like trayvon martin. what happened is the movement tries to transform it and in a lot of ways it was. when we think about the 1970s, they are a robust time of radical social activism. labor movement, african-american movement. but the state has a different response in the 1970s than it did in the excuse. they were actual concession to the united states government talked about in terms of the war on poverty in these different concessions. by the 1970s we enter this

time with austerity and by 1973 the economy has no longer grown in the way in the same manner that it had. so when we think about the postwar period, by the early 70s in an are most american citizens. so when it comes to the african-american community, there is actually a huge repression against these activists. many are incarcerated and many lose their jobs. opportunities are lost. when we think about this in a place like new york city that almost goes bankrupt. and we are living in a different united states of america. thing that we can have a freedom budget over 10 years to eradicate poverty.

many of the gains that they had made in the 1960s, by the 70s they are under attack. what is interesting is just a few years after women of action, there are legal legal challenges as well. and the supreme court upholds the affirmative action and really knows that. and right now we have states like california that have completely ended and abandon this is why some college campuses have hardly any black votes at all. in the big part of this has metastasized or the war on poverty and the war on drugs as i outlined michelle alexander's new book. the war on drugs became a war on poor african-american communities and specifically

poor black and latino men. we have three or 400,000 people in 1982 over 2 million in 2014. it has been ratcheted up by felony drug conviction nonviolent offenders in black men became rounded up in this industrial complex. so it's been a number of different things. including economy and public schools that don't work. when we say the economy doesn't work, we mean that economic growth in the united states has been predicated with housing bubbles, wall street bubbles, mortgage and security bubbles. black people inevitably, once musical chairs stop, there is no cheer for them when they stand out. so that's one of them. the public school system is in crisis. especially with a nominally

black and brown neighborhoods, not working, not getting the right resources, there's a racial achievement gap is widening in america. and the racial segregation continues. we call it de facto and so cannot by law. it's by happenstance or circumstance that the ritual segregation runs rampant. we are less likely to go to school together in certain communities than in the 1960s and 1970s and there was actually some racial integration. so this was a lot of complicated issues and the fact that we don't think about this is a national crisis is part of our problem. >> his most recent book is published in upper marlboro

maryland. [inaudible question] >> guest: that's a great question. and the way that it is an outgrowth of this. when we think about it it is this idea that often the african continent, whether in brazil or the united states or haiti or europe. all or part of one community that can be helped in the transformation of africa from a colonial past into a postcolonial path and not a real colonial future. it's this idea of movement and transformation armed with

liberation and an intellectual and you can accomplish what you will when you talk about returning to africa. some people want to make a pilgrimage back to africa and malcolm x. to that and so did kwame ture, barack obama went back as well and he documents on his book as well. so when we think about it, it's really instead of africa as the continent without a history, it is this vibrant historical continent as one of the cradles of civilization and those who have arrived in the new world whether voluntarily or through forced relocation and the trans-atlantic slave trade. and they are all connected and part of a narrative that they

should know consciously and they should utilize athletically transformation. and it still forces today in the united states. certainly the high point in the 1970s and 1980s the african liberation and it continues to thrive in the united states today. >> host: stokely carmichael, a united africa. what was his vision? >> guest: he's going to have a vision of africa that is based upon two political mentor. one is kwame ture is probably the most important pan african

debt had been assumed in the postwar period. he is really having a vision of the united states of africa and he organizes with other african countries and provide them aid and assistance. if africa can become unified with one leader and one army, it would have that much more leverage globally and also be able to help black americans who are struggling. so we think about this in his vision of africa, it's built upon what kwame ture thought and in a way he is the statesman who provides it becomes this host for the first 15 years before he died. so the position of the united africa am a been it will be so

robust and cohesive but it actually aids the african-american struggle with social economic justice. >> host: we have a tweet, what lessons from the life of stokely carmichael did you add to your own after having it walked through his? >> guest: that is a great question. i think that stokely carmichael has a leg the of resilience and a deeply principled struggle and a legacy of your enemy and those who are on the margin. someone who meets with african rulers and celebrities but never forgets who he is and is always comfortable and always deferential with poor black

women who are sharecroppers in the delta were making a way out of no way. i think the lesson is really one of struggle and perseverance and resilient. and it's also a lesson sometimes david seems to defeat quiet. the struggles that he was fighting for an early six days, there was a victory in terms of the struggle for these rights and also for black consciousness and black power which was a victory, making people criticized the vietnam war and chanting now, we won't go, to the point that the state department and the president of the united states is trying to amass evidence to charge him with sedition. those were victories because he was doing the right thing. he was speaking truth to power and he was talking about human rights and about helping people who are powerless and worthless.

>> host: we have rolling the in detroit. >> caller: good afternoon. etroit.ternoon, professor. >> caller: good afternoon. good afternoon, professor. [inaudible] i ran across this and so it's really a good theme. and when it comes to the black community, within the black community, i think that sometimes it is at the bottom of that and i remember back in the day when he was called upon by gay activists to support their movement. within the black community right

now, we had a lot to do with this doctrine. .. >> guest: that is a great question. during -- very fame now his in 1970, a statement in support of both gay liberation and women's liberation. so this is not something -- he

didn't have any homophobia, but in 1970 he comes out in support of gay liberation and says that homophobia is preventing african-american activists from seeing the commonality with both -- with the gay liberation movement. that's important. certainly when we think about the -- referring specifically too being black, male, gay, james baldwin, there were openly gay activists who were a big part of the movement and the struggle. so i think they absolutely should not be ignored. i'm certainly -- predates the kind of robust black gay liberation movement that we have now, but we have always had gay african-american freedom fighters, gay and lesbian african-american freedom fighters. river collective, black,

lesbian, radicals, activists. so, it is an important part, and he supports liberation. >> host: waitingtle midnight hour.; black days and bright lights, and stokley, a bran new book out, book tv's book club section for this month. recently tawnya davis, the producer of the program, visited professor joseph at his home in summerville, massachusetts to learn about his writing style. >> sometimes writers will say it's so hart to right, and i think it's so hard not to write, meaning that if you -- with

stokely, the newest book issue was living with that book for ten years, and even as i was finishing one book, i had another book in mind which was a second book, and he was in there somewhat, but anytime i wasn't working on the book, it is in my head, and it's not just floating, it's pounding a drum beet in your head of how you have to get the subject out. i have things between archival, people's speeches, fbi files, and then primary sources are people's memoirs and own writings, and then secondary forces, and at times my notes are probably divided into two different times. sometimes there's index cards. other times it's just blank sort of copy paper that i write notes on. sometimes you have read the

archival evidence about something, and you're thinking another how to set a scene up and you're writing notes to yourself how to set the scene up. sometimes notes just come to you and you write that down. by the time i'm with the computer, i'm trying to integrate all that into a draft, into a draft of something, and i write -- i tend to write chronologically so i'm interested in -- in the biography i moved back and forth but when i drafted it the first time it chronological. so i would try to figure things out, here's the high school years and the howard university years. how do we break up howard because it's four years and a lot of different things happened. i knew some would be its own set

piece, and i map the evidence and i'm trying to draft because a lot of writing is rewriting. so, a first draft is just that. and there's going to be multiple, multiple, multiple drafts. so this book was written and rewritten and rewritten many, many times over and not just five or ten but many times.

>> host: peniel, you listed abby jamal was one of the most influential and favorite books and authors. why. >> guest: when i was a grad student, the book was very impactful. a former black panther, a reporter, he was convicted of

murdering a police officer in philadelphia, always maintained his innocence, and his essays on both life in -- on death row and also on race, on revolution, this time as a black panther, were very, very important in terms of looking -- one caller asked before what happened to these strong activists, it's strong men or women. one of them -- he had been one of them. 159 years ol' he was a minister of information for the black panther party in philadelphia. he remembers stokely carmichael. long and lean and black as massai warrior, and it'sing? how people are struggling could remain resilient in the face of huge challenges. >> host: 202-58 53882.

585-3881, out west, and also put up our social media addresses as we go. so you can participate in that way as well. fran in toledo, ohio you have been very patient. thank you for holding. you're on booktv on c-span2. >> caller: yes, i was wondering, i have yet to meet win person who can convince me that he or she honestly believes any race is spur or inferior to any other, and i wonder if you would consider it is part of calculated cruelty, not a form of ignorance, and the so-called progress is nothing more than making fairly grudging concessions to simple and obvious justice the order to keep the peace, and there is a same relation to actual good will -- >> host: fran, fran could you just rephrase that quickly? so we all understand what you're talking about. >> caller: i was saying, i

wonder if racism is really a form of ignorance or just a form of cruelty. >> host: thank you. >> guest: you know, when we think -- i think when we think about racism, the bigger aspect of racism is really systems of domination. so racism is a system that identified different bodies, so to speak. they could be black, they could be white, they could be latino, native american, and then institutions in that society treat those folks who have been marked differently. the criminal justice system treats them differently. maybe the military does. school systems. maybe public accommodations treat them differently. maybe the courts do as well. so, when we think about racism, we sort of personalize it. sometimes we misconflate personal prejudice with racism. so people may not have personal prejudice, saying i have black

friends, latino friends. thinking about racism, the best we to -- i spoke with stokely carmichael. kind the term institutional racism. it's the institutions that -- through -- racism is institutionalized and connected to different political and social and cultural projects that nations undertake, and our country, the united states, our first project was racial slavery. the first one. then in the aftermath of racial slavery what he was continued

institutional racism in different ways ways and also hae struggles and some progress in terms of trying to eliminate institutional racism. >> host: peniel joseph, in stokely, a life, do we learn about the personal stokely carmichael? >> i think you do. i think you learn that stokely was hugely carries mat tick, somebody who -- charismatic, friends across racial lines, a leader among leader, men gravitated to as a friend and women gravitated to him as well. so he was somebody who could get along with many, many different points of view as well. even as he was confident enough to maintain and articulate his own. he is quite an unusual figure in that way. he had friends who he disagreed with but carried with him an aura of gregarious. he is a very funny man, very

funny person, somebody who is quick-witted. cracking jokes all the time, and also this intellectual, philosophy major at howard university. him and activists like bob moses, talk and discuss different philosophical theories. and he is an interesting person, and one of the things that occurs as he becomes more famous, his personal life becomes more public so he engages in a very sort of personal relationship with mirian with courtship and marriage and he becomes the property of the african-american community. people want to know what is going on in his life. certainly over time, over the decades, there's a toll that traveling, that fbi surveillance, that organizing in africa and the united states takes on his life. two marriages, two divorces. he has this -- he is traveling

all the time. so certainly there's a toll it takes on his personal life, and carmichael is very sensitive. he is impacted by the movement. we talk about post traumatic stress disorder. people who were part of the civil rights struggles and part of the black power movement and the social movements of the '60s, who experienced what carmichael called war terror, had reactions. sometimes he had breakdowns after different activists are killed. including white activists who he is very close to jonathan daniels in alabama who is killed. sammy young, jr., who is killed and murdered. martin luther king, jr. we talk about king's death. for stokely carmichael. that was a death of a friend, and was even maybe a fatherly figure to him. so, these deaths really impacted him. so he is a flesh some blood,

three-dimensional human being, so there's a price paid when you are this activist who becomes this national, international figure. >> host: did he die a wealthy man? >> guest: no, he didn't. in this case he's really like dr. king. dr. king made at it point of pride to leave no wealth behind. certainly that put his family in a bind but he made it a point of pride. king leaves this world with maybe two suits in his closet, very, very little money, maybe a life insurance policy, and the family struggled, for a time. es chewed trying to gather wealth. there's a point in the 1960s he could have, and the '60s and '70s but all the money, any money he makes from speaking engagements, from books, go back into the organization or his political activism. so he does not die a wealthy man. in fact his medical expenses were taken care of by basically

the black community globally, a network of different friends, activists, organizations, who did fundraising to take care of his medical expenses while he was battling cancer in '96, '97, '98. >> host: were you able to talk to a lot of supportses who were close to stokely carmichael? >> guest: i was able to talk to activists activists who worked with him, especially in the nonviolent coordinating committee. some people went to high school with him. some people had been impacted by him. some people were howard university classmates as well. so i was able to talk to a range of figures who knew him, had worked with him, and loved him, and really were interested in remembering his impact on their lives. >> host: what's been their reaction to this book. >> guest: i think for the most port overwhelmingly it's been -- so far, it's been positive.

i think that when you write about a figure who is so close to different people, people felt he was a brother, a cousin family member, they can have their own viewpoints or open disappointments over what you write or maybe criticism or how you're framing this figure who they knew, but i think that the book certainly is critical but extraordinarily respectful of his life and his legacy. >> host: lawrence from syracuse, new york. hi, lawrence. >> caller: hi. greetings. thank you c-span. like one of your callers said earlier, there's no opportunity, very minimal opportunity for black folks in america, still, to have access to freedom on television. i appreciate it. i look forward to the book.

i have met stokely in the early part of the '90s, as he met with a local leader in harlem. and this is -- in the twilight of his days, and he is a funny man, always smiling. a beautiful soul who was ordinary, and just had outrage about the society which we live in, continued to lead majority of his people out. and we still have a society that still operating that way, and one part i would like you to address, i am looking forward to the book but i'd like to see something -- the racism is not just about the skin color. it's all about economics. white people that will fight for

black people not to leave. look at medgar evers, somebody who they killed because he was talking about, let's good -- let's go back to africa. he was buying ships and trying to connect the economics of the issue together, and the same thing with dr. king and malcolm x. whenever they start to bring that up, the issue becomes -- the issue here is, we have to talk amongst ourselves, as you're doing with this book. the issue is about economic linking those -- >> host: thank you, lawrence. >> guest: i would say that's true. i think when we think about these racial struggles of the 1960s and somebody like stokley carmichael or martin luther king, jr., it's an economic struggle.

what's interesting is initially in carmichael's arc he believed it could be combated through organizing. for example, trying to register and get people voting rights in a place like mississippi was so they could be part of the political process, and then later, by 1965, trying to organize in a really microway, local community organizing, make sure that black folks in the county had the political positions to impact them economically as well so they wouldn't have to be at the mercy of white plantation owners or a white political establishment. also he continues, by 1966-'67, he is talking about the vietnam war and he has a critique of capitalism, this antiimperialist critique as well, this whole idea that america is an empire and that economic and racial subjugation go hand in hand.

right? so he is talking about this, and certainly dr. king and the movement, the poor people's campaign, is talking about this as well. so i do think these movements, even if we sometimes remember them erroneously. march on washington for jobs and freedom. economic component it a big part of it and is connected. racial justice and economic equality are intime maltly connected. >> host: the cover of "stokely, a life." where is that's picture from. >> guest: april 15, 1967, a picture from the unite -- united nations protest -- he made a glorious speech. he speaks before dr. king and they had a -- not a falling out but after the meredith march where stokely had unveiled the

black power slogan with different activists, there's a famous repartee between king and stokely where stokely said that we used you, dr. king so we could unleash this phrase because the media was going to be here. black power. and dr. king says, stokely, i've been used before, won't be the first time. but certain people around dr. king said after the meredith march in june of 1966, we don't want king and stokely sharing a stage again, and they don't share a stage again until april of 1967. what is interesting is that they really find common ground in opposition to the vietnam war. so, dr. king does three really important antivietnam speeches in april of 1967. one is april 4th in riverside, new york. the second is at the united nations in new york. the third is ebenezer baptist,

and it's the end of april and the called stokely carmichael up saturday night and says that, stokely, i want you to come. what are you doing tomorrow morning? and stokely says, dr. king, like a good heathen, i'm not going to be in church. i'm just working for the people. and dr. king says, well, stokely, i want you to come tomorrow, and he says why? and he says, tomorrow i'm going to really come out against the vietnam war, and then there's silence on the line between them. and stokely says that, i'm going to be there on the front row tomorrow. and when you look at footage of king's speech, it's stokely carmichael in april of 1967 who is leading the standing ovation for dr. king's antipar -- anti-war speech. it's incredible the coverage of these activists. by 1967, newspaper reporters and journalists are saying that carmichael and king are working hand in hand together and it's

interesting because we don't remember it that way. they're saying these guys are basically -- one paper calls them the batman and robin of the movement, this antiwar movement. they find common ground in terms of the vietnam struggle, and as two activists and two men, they find common ground with a shared love of black culture and black people. they really are two of the key activists another that period who have a political sincerity and a really appreciation and understanding for poor black people. these are guys who at times are in suit and ties, and with dignity tears. in the meredith march in mississippi, you're in overalls, and it's 95 degrees and if your not comfortable around poor black people, that's going to show, and with these two men, it's the exact opposite. they embraced on the least of these, embraced the folks who

are ex-convicts, the folks who are dirt poor, the folks who don't speak grammatically correct english, they embrace that side of the black community. >> host: a.r. jenkins tweets: were condoleezza rice and stokely carmichael acquaintances? if so, why such divergence? >> guest: they are. this is a great example of who stokely carmichael was. they recall each other very fondly. so stokely meets condoleezza rice when she is nine, ten years old, and he is speaking at spellman college in alabama, and her father is john rice, one of the deans at the college, and he invites stokely to speak, and they form a friendship. he forms a friendship with condoleezza rice, calls her his

little sister. evens a she takes a different path ideologically, intellectually, he continues to visit. he teaches classes for her father, guest lectures for her father, and they continue to be in touch. so, in a way, when you think about stokely carmichael and kwame terei, he could have deep political differences with you but it was never personal. he could still be fond of somebody like condoleezza rice, who he had vehement disagreements with. so very interesting. that's the kind of person he was. you could have huge disagreements but he was definitely understood the human face of personal relationships. >> host: what was stokely carm -- carm michael's opinion of white involvement in the black movement.

>> guest: that changes over time. he goes to a predominantly white high school. bronx science. he tests before this actions. a brilliant student, a popular student, talked to people, the class of 1960, only eight african-americans over 300 graduating students. people knew stokely was brilliant. they knew he would be special. he was very intellectually confident, politically confident. he worked with white students. he had predominantly white friends and jewish friends at bronx science, even though he had african-american friends as well. he marched in pro israeli parches in the 1950s. so by the time the summer project happens and hundreds of white volunteers come into mississippi and some of them stay on, he was comfortable around white people and around black people. so he never had discomfort around whites. he is aware that white

participation in the movement caused certain dangers to black and white activists. somebody like jonathan daniels, who is killed in alabama, is a white -- a religious student, an activist and was murdered. the very fact that you're white and you're trying to help organize black people, really made you a target and made the people you were trying to help organize targets as well. so, over time, he comes to believe that white activists should really work in white communities. they should be trying to do antiracist work and struggle in white communities. but he never advocates any kind of conventional racial separatism, and in the 1960s, once sncc -- there's a vote made while he is chairman, to not exactly key whites out of sncc but it becomes that. no white project or field

workers can directly affiliate themselves with sncc. he is accused of kicking white people out. stokely doesn't agree with that decision. he doesn't go for that decision. so, what's interesting is that his relationship with whites is a complex relationship but he always felt comfortable with white activists. he has a critique of white liberalism, and probably one of his best distillations is the berkeley speech in october of 1966 where he says the problem and why we can't have genuine democracy in the united states is because of white supremacy, and he is telling students at berkeley you have to understand what white and privilege is. the reason why we have to protest and sit in and demonstrate is because of not just racism but white privilege that is infecting the united states from top to bottom and bottom to top. >> you write in "stokely: a life." he blamed sncc for serving as an

unwitting buffer between white society and the black masses as racial interpreters who helped to maintain the illusion that american democracy required little more than reform. sncc and other civil rights groups underestimated the depth of institutional rate simple, the jagged edges of democracy and the deep-seated hostility of white against even the appearance of blackness. >> guest: there is an underestimation, especially in the '60s, somebody who is willing to call himself out and say, we made mistakes. i made a mistake. there was an undersystems. initially sncc is this band of sisters and brothers in a circle of trust who believe that this kind of reform, once people get what they're trying to do and build genuine small "d" democracy in the united states, never existed. alabama, mississippi, the whole country, that people would get

on board. by '65, '66, that's not the case. they had been in error. that the motion of social political justice was something that was revolutionary. the relation of racial equality, economic equality, something that millions of white americans, not just barry goldwater and george wall los angeles icons of racial segregation and neoconserve tim, were in opposition. but what stokely does, he becomes further radicalized and makes the argument that unless black people in '66 -- he got a great essay in the new york review of books in 18966 and the new republic on january 8, 1966, where he says, look, unless black people can get real access to small d democracy and real control over their own lives, their whole country and the premise it's founded on is bankrupt. that becomes his argument.

so initially he is arguing for black power, not just social, political, economic self-determines but black power as democracy's last chance and best hope. that's going to evolve into black power radical revolutionary antiimperialism, anticapitalism, antiwar, but initially that is what he is saying in speeches and in his writings, and what is interesting is his vision of democracy is a radical vision of democracy. it's poor black people, sharecroppers, people who had no voice, being in charge and being seen as leaders. he says when he is talking to stud terkel, he says a person in mississippi is as important as martin luther king, maybe more so because king had all pedigree, the way he speaks, like the white community want. and if we're truly going to be this society that we envision

ourselves to be, she has to be the person that we embrace. not only accept. that we embrace. it's his vision of democracy in that case is remarkable, and certainly it's going to be transformed after a while, going to receipt and going to be talking about revolution. >> we just showed a picture of fanny lou hamer as well. there is going to be a biography written about her? >> guest: certainly. there's -- the -- >> host: what's your next subject, your next topic for book? >> guest: the next subject is malcolm and martin, and i'm very much interested in both their relationship, how that relationship has been misconstrued. what they mean to race, american

politics, the african-american freedom struggle. so, yeah, that's the next subject. >> host: eric is calling from des moines, you're on with professor peniel joseph. >> caller: thank you for taking my call. two quick questions or comments. my first question is for mr. joseph. in your opinion, why do you think we refer to malcolm x as opposed to el shabazz and recognition in the middle east or whatever and kwame as opposed to stokely as opposed to kwame. that's my first question. then my next one is, being a professor, i'm in my mid-40s, and as early as 20 i started becoming what i consider conscious and started talking about -- when you start talking about the malcolm x, the unsung

heroes, very uncomfortable to people, white america, black america, and the professor, how do you handle that? i want to one day become an historian and go on to teach and inspire. how do you handle that with so many people in the beginning of the program. >> host: thank you. thank you, eric. >> guest: the first question i refer to stokely has both stokely car carmichael and qualm temperature uree, kwame turyy and stokely carmichael before. for malcolm x, el shabazz, the name that he took after his hodge to the middle east in 1964. but certainly the iconography has been around malcolm x and el

shabazz and both of them are credible. in terms of stokely carmichael and kwame, both are -- can be used. in terms of the whole notion of comfortablity, i say, yes, mainstreamers talking about black radicalism, talking about black power, makes people uncomfortable. i think what i have done as an historian, as a professor, and just as a teacher, really placed these figures in their larger historical context and why they are not only a part of american and world history, they're central to that story. so, to me, i think that relieves the discomfort when you can empirically show you're not just talking about these folks to talk about them. but you're saying that, look, they're connected to this larger story and they're stroll central

to -- central to themes of citizenship, democracy. >> host: patricia e-mails: can you talk about the significance of stokely's famous comment that, quote, the position of women in the movement is prone and how that complicated the lives of activists? >> guest: that's a great question, and it's really -- what is interesting is that is a quote that is really become decontextualized, taken on a life of its own after the fact. it's a quote from 1964, in mississippi in november, and there was a sncc conferencin' 1964, and mary king and casey hayden were two white sncc activists that, wrote what was then an anonymous possession paper about the position of women in sncc, and it's come to be embraced as one of the

founding texts of second wave of feminism, a text that examines gender blinders, inequality, even as the movement was talking about racial equality. and in the aftermath of one of those discussions, stokely carmichael. mary king there is, different activists, they leave the conference site, the building they're in, and they go to the -- by the water in miss and is good -- go on a pier and they're having discussions and joking around and at one point stokely, who is very famous for sort of at times doing little standup routines, imitating people, being really -- he says that the position of women in sncc, yeah, almost rhetorically, and he says the position is prone. everybody breaks out laughing. it is a joke. everybody who is there knows it's a joke. in the aftermath, that quote has

been taken out of context, almost as if one -- this is how carmichael felt about gender and women's equality, and, two, a larger sort of indictment on the '60s and black power activists or just the patriarchy of the '6s so. there was -- patriarchie and sexism and but carmichael is remembered by female activists in sncc has one of the most responsive and dedicated men in terms of these issues. so, the way in which i look at that quote is, i asked the sources, women who worked with him, how was stokely in the movement? did he promote women's equality? was he somebody who believed in gender equity? and the answers you inevitably get is, yes, this is somebody

who, whatever blinders and whatever sexism was happening at the time, and doesn't mean he is immune to that but he is not just raging sexist or this raging misogynist, so that quote has taken on a life of its own, and he says. so i document he says, a little quote going around, stokely carmichael's -- that's something that has been used by different groups who had the critique of the revolutionary policies of the '60s, sometimes used by different feminists as well, both whites and others, who are saying, well, this is what this guy represents and, it's really not. but being such a public figure he took it in stride and was supportive and almost regretful because it became a long-lasting smear. the way people recall its not as the joke its. it's sexist joke but it's a joke

among friends who are 20 years old at the time. >> heidi in maine, you're on book tv on c-span2. >> caller: thank you so much. dr. joseph, i really appreciate your commitments and scholarship on all of these issues. i am also a westy. i was blessed to meet him back -- and blessed after writing my paper about him and deep democracy to be able to sit in on a few of his classes at harvard. at his invitation, and got to sing my song, mandela, this is my mandate, in his class. i wanted to let you know that one of the reasons why i so care about him is because he really emphasizes the concept of caring

for not just, like you said, about other people and the movement. he also really cares about the economics and also the environment. i think that gets forgotten in a lot of this equal rights and stuff. but i really -- i'm hearing my voice going on, on the inform the other room -- >> host: heidi, do you have a question that you would like -- please ask it. >> caller: yes. i would like to know what he thinks about how obama has not really heeded the message that cornel west has about equality and meeting with him. it seems like tavis and west have gone out of their way to hold things in d.c., but that they don't get recognized -- >> host: all right. we got the point. peniel joseph. >> guest: i think it's being.

i think somebody like obama -- obviously he has an emerge icon otography in the black community. some kwame would be very critical of obama and his policies, and when you think about cornel west and the critique they've had wednesday president obama, for the first anytime american history we actually had an african-american president. that's presented a conundrum for african-american civil rights leadership, because this president is so beloved by the african-american community, that he can bypass the usual channels of political -- and criticizing the president overtly because he faces such staunch opposition from right-wingers, whether it's in congress or just the larger public, has really made african-americans angry. so i think that it's a difficult threshold but it certainly is

important to remember that as iconic as obama is, he is president of the united states and is not an activist. sometimes people mistakenly think that barack obama is martin luther king, jr., and i tell students when you look at a picture of king and lyndon johnson, king and kennedy, when you think of obama, you have to think about president kennedy and president johnson, not as being civil rights leader dr. king. >> from -- >> host: from our facebook page, lydia says the black panther party is not understood enough. how can the party and aspects of black power be aflied 21st 21st century struggle. >> guest: the party is not understood. the black panther party is a revolutionary party, advocating for radical self-determination. they're talking about having a socialism -- a socialist society, free land, bread, peace, justice, full employment,

and we usually think about them in terms of violence and self-defense and armed struggle, which is one facet but there were so many other multiple facets. the greatest thing that the panthers provide us is with a real context of looking at the united states in a critical way. so the panthers, they quote from the declaration of independence in their ten-point program, yet at the same time they have a real critique of capitalism and democracy. so the panthers are very, very interesting group as a black group that is inspired by what goes on around in lawrence county, alabama, in oak lean, and spreads across the country and throughout the world, going to have international chapters, chapter in algeria, and have this burgeoning iconography. there are talking about state-sanctioned violence, poverty. the criminalization of

african-american men and women, even in the 1960s. so the panthers were on the cutting edge of so much of the political activism that we see in the 21 not century, including struggles against mass incarceration, prison industrial complex, open season on young black men. panthers were talking about nat 1966, 1967. oakland, canada, had horrendous record of police brutality and racial profiling against young black men and women, even in the 1950s so a lot of the problems have metastasized, a prison state of over two million people. maybe 800,000, a million black people in that prison state disproportionate of their population of 40 million. so it's very interesting that the panthers speaking truth to power. very critical of the united states government. very, very critical of racism, vietnam war, poverty.

the best thing we can get from the panthers is the way they very much analytically looked at the situation, even though we remember the fireworks, confrontations with police, the leather jackets, theber -- the berets, off the pigs, but why they really did was have this analysis of what was going on in terms of poverty, in terms of police brutality, in terms of the way in the u.s. nation state is not only a gap between democratic rhetoric and reality but really a chasm and attracted a community. >> host: would you you consider writing a biography of huey newton? >> guest: a great question. i think huey is a fascinating figure. certainly i think we need a biography of huey nut ton, -- newton but my folk tuesday --

focus is on hi next book, malcolm and martin. but certainly he is an important figure that needs to be written about. >> host: is that the name of the book, malcolm and martin? >> guest: no. the name of the book is the sword and the shield. political worlds of malcolm x. >> host: when will we see that? >> guest: i have no idea at this point. >> host: willy from portland, oregon go ahead. >> caller: professor, i appreciate and i think most of your listeners appreciate what it takes and the flavors of black history that you have brought to our understanding. my question has to do with what part did -- [inaudible] -- it's the 50th anniversary

-- thank you. i appreciate you comments. >> guest: thank you. leon, activist in philadelphia, opportunities, industrial, corporation -- i'm losing the full name of the group -- really about self-help. more liberal or moderate self-help, but certainly self-determination, very, very important on local activists during the civil rights struggle, trying to provide economic opportunities. in away when you think about leon sullivan, people who are more pragmatic insiders, did agitate. they wanted -- it was interesting, people like leon sullivan, they were very important part of the movement. if you needed radicals, you needed revolutionaries but you also need moderates moderates ad pragmatists as well who can shape the demand and the bread and butter issues, where even as you have people calling for this

complete revolution that people want, in the meantime, how do you get from point a to b before you get to z. and sometimes there was huge disputes over that. people say the person getting from a to b is preventing us from getting to z and that's the era. leon sullivan is very northern terms of economic opportunities on the ground for blacks and urban america during the '60s. >> host: stokely, a life. dedicated for astride. who is astrid. >> guest: my fiancee. i metmer in boston. >> host: what does she do. >> guest: she is in business, vice president of sales at a company. at a consulting company. >> host: next call for peniel joseph comes from seku in mad tisson heights, virginia. >> caller: good afternoon, sire. er doing great job and i have two brief questions. one is, results of the civil

rights movement cause kwame to adopt and -- ideology, and the next is, would he have questioned the cia in reference to -- [inaudible] thank you, sir. >> guest: the factors that led to his adoption of -- is really what he experienced on the ground in the civil rights actives -- as a civil rights activist and a black power organizer and mobilizer, stokely carmichael becomes kwame ture out of a process of experience. so, by the time he visits the creek in 1967, september of 1967, he has visited cuba, visited algeria, on the front lines, speaking to different revolutionaries and is going to go to paris, going to tanzania,

and he comes to feel that revolutionary pan-africanism as spelled out by kwame, one of the definitive pan-african ises of his generation, and ture is one of the most for mettable pan-africaist leaders of the post war period and comes to believe that combining their political thought and action is really what is going to be necessary to lead an african restoration and a worldwide political struggle to defeat capitalism, defeat imperialism and produce freedom and liberation for oprocessed people all over the world. the second question -- >> host: cia and the death of hugo chavez. >> guest: i think kwame -- we saw in the clip -- certainly felt harassed and felt under

pressure by the cia. so undoubtedly he would connect what happened to chavez to chi chi. absolutely -- to the cia. absolutely. >> host: do you support or agree with kwame, stokely carmichael's view 0 about the fbi following hem throughout his life and causing his cancer, as he told us during that interview? >> guest: i think in terms of following him and harassing him throughout his life, absolutely in terms of causing cancer, i haven't seen evidence that shows that. but in terms of following him, harassing him, really -- again, undercutting the way in which you enjoy your live, because you're looking over your shoulder. it's important for our viewers to understand that having people surveil you is hugely uncomfortable. it's hugely upsetting. it's hugely stressful. and to have people surveilling

you from the time you're 25 years old, really until your death, transforms you, and really has a debilitating impact on you. i think he was very, very resilient in the face of that and was strong and not defeated or broken by that, but certainly it's not something any of us would want for our lives. right? because the president of the united states, yes, secret service is trying to protect you. it's different if the people are trying to surveil you to see that you don't do anything that me a constitute in your arrest or something negative against you. >> host: john of laurel new york e-mails: it's my opinion that lyndon johnson felt betrayed by the civil rights leaders who didn't support the war in vietnam. what is your opinion? >> guest: i think johnson feels betrayed in this sense. lbj feels he has done so much for the entire country, and he has done so much for the civil rights movement and racial

equality, that he says, look, he wants martin luther king, jr. on board because he is thinking to himself, the way he is analyzing this, i was onboard for voting rights, i was onboard for civil rights. this cost me commit political capital but i was on board. johnson was what some people call a horse trader, quid pro quo. so from his perspective, people like king -- not stokely charm michael but people like king are ungrateful by not towing the line on this simple agree with that. >> host: patricia, pine bluff, arkansas, you're on with peniel joseph. >> caller: hi. yes, my question is, what is our future as a people? i hear about all the activism, all the intellectuals, people who are knowledgeable in the black struggle, and -- but it

seems like we're fighting for the same thingses we fought for in slavery. ... >> host: patricia, i think we got the point. thank you. dr. joseph? >> guest: yeah. i think when we think about the african-american community in the 21st century, i think it's important to remember that sometimes people say, you know, where do we go from here, and

dr. king wrote a book, he asked our community in 1967. african-americans are dis proportionately overrepresented in negative indicators, unemployment, housing loan, mortgage crisis, health care crises, social disrotation, homelessness -- dislocation, homelessness, all these things. we have to understand why is that happening, mass uncars ration, public schools -- incarceration, public schools. we have two different perspectives. one school of thought says because of the civil rights victories of the '60s, this is all about individual apathy. it's all about pulling yourself up by your boot straps. the reason why brach people are in -- black people are in the position they're in is themselves and their own lack of work ethic. look at barack obama, he became president, you should do for yourself. the counter view is what we've seen since the 1960s is that opportunity has actually not

increased for most african-americans, it's actually decreased. one great example would be the politics of hurricane katrina where we saw the eighth ward in new orleans, we saw african-americans who were living in abject poverty and in a way they could have been living in the 1960s, 1950s, it could have been the 1890s or the 1880s, right? so what we, we don't admit to ourselves in the united states is that we have what people call ghettos, i'll call poor black communities because real people live there. we have black communities that are living in entrenched poverty, right? and they've live inside that poverty generationally. and so from that perspective you have a better understanding not why so many people are poor, but what's remarkable is the few who have actually escaped. so when we think about where we are today, i think too often we focus on those who have escaped really metaphorically the

plantation, those who have escaped that plantation and who are movie stars, who are elites, who are wealthy power brokers, right? but then for those who are left behind with the rest of the country asks how come you're still on that plantation, right? and that's a terrible question. the real question is how come there's a plantation at all. >> host: donald palmer from bumming ham, alabama, tweets into you, prover joseph, why is there so much fear in america regarding the issue of race? >> guest: well, i think that the fear is based on a rack of honesty finish a lack of honesty and based on a lack of coming to terms with our own history. i eluded to 12 years a slave earlier, and i've written different essays for the root on 12 years. i think the reason why that film so important is because it actually shook the system, it shook the united states back into talking about slavery. we hadn't had that conversation about slavery since january of 1977 when roots appeared and was

shattering ratings records. what's interesting about race is that race becomes a very, very problematic subject because our creed is that we are a color blind society. our creed is about racial, ethnic equality. what race points out is really the disjuncture. it points out gaps. it points out inec butties, inconsistencies. in the 19 of 0s the people used to say the contradiction, people would start organizing once they mastered the contradictions between the rhetoric of democracy and the reality. so race becomes sort of the crucible, the way in which welcome really understand and see those con -- understand and see those contradictions. >> host: dan in syracuse, new york, please go ahead with your question or comment. >> caller: yes. first of all, i was a student at

tuts about 15 years ago, and my two questions have to do with your position in academia. the first one's kind of small bore, i was wondering if you engage with cantive publication, the primary source, on campus. and my second question is in your position of power, essentially, in an elite institution do you encourage your black students that come to you for guidance and mentorship, do you encourage them to pursue other avenues in academia? because i came from a high school where, a very diverse city high school, and i was used to seeing black people in power and have influence, but when i got to tufts, i noticed that gerald dill -- who i believe was your predecessor -- was pretty much the only black member of the faculty. there wasn't a black math professor, physics professor, english professor. do you try and encourage students to pursue fields other

than black history? that's my question, thank you. >> guest: yeah. the first, no, i haven't had interaction with primary source. but the second is, yeah, i do encourage. i think, one, tufts has really transformed itself since the time that you were this. i direct a center as well as being a professor. i have colleagues who are also african-american or biracial, mixed racement we have -- race. we have more black professors now at tufts than i think this the history of of entire institution. so, one, that has definitely changed and tufts has transformed itself and i think is poised to be on the leading edge of talking about issues of race and issues of equity and democracy in this country. in terms of my students, i always encourage them to pursue whatever it is they want to pursue. i don't discourage them from

pursuing black history, but i encourage them to think about dreaming outside what they might have come -- outside the confines of their background, right? really saying, really encouraging them to, you know, when i came to stony brook, i was 17 years old, and one of my mentors there was a professor at boden now and was at stony brook was very, very encouraging to me in terms of being a professor. one of the professors who was there, these folks all gave encouragement. so i encourage my african-american students to really believe that they can be the best person in their field so that not only can they be somebody who thinks of a profession as a way to make a living, but really as a vocation and that they can make their mark. but since we talk about, we talk about active citizenship, we talk about social justice at tufts. i encourage them to whatever they want to get into,

economics, health care, science, international relations, history, african-american studies that to think of themselves as somebody who's capable of being the absolute best at whatever it is they endeavor to do. >> host: what was your rick with manny mare bell? >> guest: manny was a deep mentor to me. he was somebody who inspired me. he taught at columbia university for a number of years. he authored about 20 books. i first encountered manny when i was 20 years, 20 years old at stony brook university, and this is before the internet age, this was before texting and e-mailing. hugely kind and considerate to me. we kept in touch through letters, and when my first book came out, he, you know, promoted it, blurbed it, you know, was very, very encouraging to me as a young scholar. so certainly somebody who has

meant a lot to me personally and professionally. >> host: and, of course, he had the posthumous malcolm x book out last year, i believe it was. >> 2011. he won the pulitzer prize in 2012. >> host: verna smith tweets in to you, professor, could you talk about comedian dick gregory's role back then when we think of black politics and civil rights? >> guest: dick gregory is a real hero, somebody who marched with dr. king. he was on the front lines. he's somebody who used his celebrity to further political activism. you know, there are others, giants like harry belafonte, of course, but dick gregory really was somebody who was articulate, funny but was willing to speak truth to power even no matter what cost it had on his own, on his own professional career. and somebody who knew different activists, knew stokely carmichael, knew people in the student nonviolent coordinating

committee on the ground, raised money, gave money. so really one of the true rock solid, you know, heroes of that period. >> host: a lot of our e-mails and tweets and facebook comments have, are about the black panther movement. i'm sorry, the black power and the black panther movement. >> guest: yeah. >> host: this is dane sherman's tweet to you: can you speak about the significance of boeing georgia loose saw, louisiana, and the rise of black power movement? >> guest: yeah. that's where the deacons for defense and justice are coming out of or one of places that they're coming out of, and the deacons of defense and justice really were activists who were connected to the civil rights movement providing armed self-defense or armed protection for civil rights activists in mississippi, louisiana and other parts of the country. so boeing loose saw, louisiana, is very, very important in terms of civil rights and black power,

in terms of the southern side of both of these movements but also this issue of armed protection. these folks were arming themselves not to try to sort of violently confront racial terrorists, but to make sure that civil rights workers were not confronted with violence. >> host: peniel joseph, last month on this program we had women's history professor bonnie morris, and in one of her books she has a quiz about women's history, and so we played that a little bit during the program. when it comes to textbooks, do you think we're learning enough about black history? >> guest: well, i'd say, no, we're not learning enough about black history. i think that there are some textbooks, you know, evelyn brooks hikingen both that many and john hope franklin from slavery is freedom can has been done by professor higgingbotham, mel painter has a brilliant textbook that looks at african-american visual arts, so there are some. but in terms of our high school,

what my students who come in as freshmen understand about black history, they've gotten virtually no black history at predominantly sub you are wan white -- suburban white high schools. so even though the '60s presented us with a real challenge and black studies became institutionalized at predominantly white universities, that didn't really happen at the high school level all across the united states. i think right now the city of philadelphia does require all high school students to have an african-american studies curriculum, and i know one of my friends from grad school, dr. greg carr can who's at howard university, he was one of the people e behind that curriculum. and so philadelphia sort of stands out in a positive way. but what we need in all urban cities, but suburbs, midwest, out west into the west coast would be units on african-american history because it's really american history, right? it's part of our, it's part of our national story and our national saga, and our students

need to know it really to make their way in the world. like it's actually vital in this globalizing society to understand about african-american history and its connection to the wider world. >> host: daniel in boston, good afternoon. >> caller: gentlemen, thank you for your time. mr. joseph, for a young man with indigenous roots such as yourself to be teaching and actively speaking about racial history is a powerful model for our youth, so thank you very much for that. >> guest: oh, thank you. >> caller: one of the interesting as pecks of the plaque panner the -- aspects of the black panther party for me was the free breakfast program for school children who, from what i understand, hoover was very upset about and, actually, tried to end. and the other part of my question is, speaking to some of my peers about topics of racial history, anger seems to be one of the most prevalent emotions that come up at least for our youth, you know, who are young.

so what advice can you give to young men who come into knowledge of things such as the 1999 civil trial when the united states was found to be guilty of conspiring in the assassination of dr. martin luther king? these bring such emotions for our youth, and i was just wondering what advice you could have and thank you for your time. >> guest: okay. well, in terms of the youth, i think that one of the most powerful things that we can use and, you know, malcolm x talks about this in his autobiography was his love of reading, his love of learning. i think part of the problem is finding out the story. and i think that i was very, very fortunate to live in the household i lived in and i grew up in and the minnesota to haves i -- mentors i had to sort of find out the storiment but then also once with you find out the story, what do you do? and anger certainly i understand anger, but you should use that knowledge as fuel to become whether it's an organizer and an

activist, whether it's a teacher, whether it's a doctor, whether it's some kind of lead e right? so i think that anger is best redirected into something that is hugely, hugely positive for the entire african-american community including things like volunteering and mentoring young people. because our young people need to see -- it's more than role models, but examples of a different kind of success. and i think one of the reasons why i was inspired to ride about stokely carmichael is that his life provided a different road to success. it didn'tened up as a u.s. presidency, a billionaire leader of a hedge fund, it ended up with social activism, political activism each in the face of all -- even in the face of all these challenges. so i think what our young people need to know is really the history and how that history informs their struggle. there's so many different black women and men who they stand on

their shoulders, and the more they know about that history, i think the more it arms them to deal with the challenges that they may face. >> host: deborah gill posted on our facebook page, you mentioned two of my sorority sisters, darlene clark hines and paula giddings as some of your favorite authors. are there other delta sigma theta activists such as shirley chism, winnie mandela that you favor? >> guest: well, you know, i mentioned those as my favorites. i didn't realize that they were deltas, i think that's great. certainly shirley chism is an important activist, a congresswoman out of brooklyn unbought and unbossed. certainly winnie mandela, as well, is a very, very important activist. i don't know if they're deltas, but there's many, many, you know, women authors, and i think i might have listed them, rhonda williams who teaches as candidate western university has done terrific work on black women in ballot hour and public

housing. there's just so many different authors who have hugely influenced me, barbara answerby's book on ella baker, jean three yo harris' book, there's just too many to count, and i don't know if those folks belong to sororities or fraternities, but i think i've been very, very lucky in terms of who i've had availability in terms of for influence. >> host: and ms. gill goes on to say would you consider writing about africana women leaders? >> guest: oh, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. i mean, you go -- each project makes you delve and go into a different one. so, yeah, absolutely. and i think within these projects i actually have, but in terms of to have just a study of that, yeah, absolutely. >> host: all right. we have answered this twice, but a lot of people are asking what are you working on next? >> guest: okay. the next book is "the sword and the shield," and it's the political worlds of malcolm x

and martin luther king jr., so it's really a dual political biography -- >> host: where they intersect or compare and contrast? >> guest: it's both. it's really both, you know? i think that dr. king and malcolm x are two revolutionaries, and in surgeon ways we've just been focused on contrast and not convergence and what their legacies really mean in the 21st century. >> host: archie in new york, good afternoon to you. >> caller: yes, good afternoon. i'd just like to say thank you very much to c-span for your excellent program and also thank professor joseph for his diligence. the question that i have is i'd like to know what influenced dr. cannon and dr. clark may have had on stokely carmichael, and thank you for taking the question. >> guest: yeah. i think that they did have an influence. i think stokely, kwame torre read very widely, he read, you

know, these books about africa and black history and black nationalism by these insurgent people's historians like dr. clark. he was influenced bihar hem street speakers, so he didn't just read duboise, you know? those figures like chancellor williams, those figures who provide a different kind of history. dr. ivan certima. i think the influence would be there, and when you think about stokely carmichael during his black power period, he's really drilling down into african-american history and also african history, right in in -- right? saying that you have to understand the african past to understand where we're at today. so i think the influence, his influence intellectually was, there's a big depth and breadth to that experience, and they're inclusive, definitely.

>> host: lisa tweets in to you, professor joseph: history is valuable and necessary, but how do you make stokely or carmichael relevant to a 22-year-old from west tennessee or urban kentucky? >> guest: well, i think by talking about, you know, what this person did and how his activism changed the united states of america, helped change africa, helped change the world in terms of being this passionate leader and this advocate and activist for social and political justice. and also how young he was. the person who's 22, i would tell them, look, by the time he was 22 years old, stokely carmichael not only was graduating from howard university, he was leading an entire project, one of the leaders along with bob moses and ores in the mississippi -- others in the mississippi delta for voting rights at 22 years old. i'd say part of the example is to show how ambitious young people who took on trying to

change the world. no money, no pedigrees, right? and they were the metaphorical davids to the united states' goliath, can they were trying to transform the world. they believed in human rights, they believed in social justice, they believed that poor people should be fed. some of this is just basic, and it seems common sense. they believed that people who were sick should have health care. and even when the united states government didn't believe in those things, these people sacrificed their lives to achieve a measure of that. and i'd say to the 22-year-old, you should try to do the same thing. you should try to be as ambitious. that's the model and the standard that they set. and it's not just stokely. stokely has thousands of come compatriots. he's got thousands, young who were then young women and men, black, white, latino, everything in between who did the same thing, you know? we look and examine his life because of its outside significance, but there were so many people who did the same thing. so the 22-year-old should be excited that somebody did that

at that young age, and i think they should be, find him eminently relace bl in that seasons. >> host: trey is calling from fresno, california. you're on with peniel joseph on booktv. >> caller: thank you. i want to say that what you guys is doing is extremely powerful. best way i can illustrate that power is appropriately saying the word power here is that i'm 20 years old, born in 993, and i'm from that metaphorical plantation that you alluded to earlier, and thank you for doing that because there are things in this world that are worse than slavery now, and the things that are worse than slavery days than they are now. but my question revolves around education. and the question is, i've heard how passionate you are about youth, and i've heard your, the message about accountability. and i want to commit the critical role of those freedom schools and how important the ella bakers and the stokely carmichaels and the dr. kings knew that they were and exactly

what they were which was these organized groups coming to those plantations that you alerted to. because all the true seasons of the word poverty means that we -- meaning that we can't get to you guys, it's not easy to get to you guys. and you guys came to us, and they didn't expect us to do a system that is the education system today, that is -- it's not or more us. it's not going to work. you expect us to get through that before we are able to use our creativity which a lot of us are aching to do, you know? but speaking from the area of the world that i'm calling you from right now, it's very much like a plantation here. >> host: trey -- >> caller: very hard to get out. >> host: tell us about yourself. >> caller: i'm born homeless in 1993. there's a lot of reasons for me not to be here right now, and that's why right now it's a very powerful moment just because

there's no separation between me being able to speak to a stokely carmichael. there's no separation in me being able to speak to a dr. king, an ella baker than the feeling i have right now speaking to you, professor joseph. because as i know them, you know themment those people, those spirits, the message they left behind for us to make our own is just is as powerful as era of the '60s was. >> host: what are you doing today? >> caller: what am i doing to do? i'm going to go into work in a couple of hours at a service job that, you know, that's just, you know -- >> host: are you in school? >> caller: i would like -- >> host: i am in school. i go to fresno city college, and they're all professors like the brilliant mr. joseph there, but they're sprinkled about, peppered about. it's hard to come across them consistently because of the, you know, the inherent problems in the school system that it's just been the very basic structure of

it that streps the good people, the good, beautiful spirits like joseph. it stretches you thin. you exist, but the system because of the foundation of what it's there for, those schools weren't adequate and during sncc's days are the same reason our schools aren't adequate today, and our creative abilities are being suppressed. >> host: all right, trey, we appreciate your calling in. professor joseph. >> guest: yeah with. i think the whole idea of education and sort of reaching out to people where they're at is absolutely important. one of the things i've tried to do as a teacher and as a activist, as a scholar is really reach as wide of an audience as possible and really write in a way that's as accessible as possible so that you can reach people, right? so i do a lot of community work many boston and this -- in boston and in surrounding areas, and i think that one of the things we have to do in terms of education those of us who are in high or education and have all this relative privilege even

though, yes, it can spread ourselves thin, i but really reach as many people as possible. so we can reach somebody like trey. and there's so many brilliant young people like him who are not being given the opportunity. and they are hungry for affirmation beyond the narrow outlines of our contemporary society where we are told we have to get rich, we have to tow a specific line to be famous, and we're not hearing for social political justice unless it's done in a way that the mainstream accepts. so i think it's very important for all of us who have access to really reach out. and i think that in terms of education, you mentioned ella baker, you mentioned these folks. one other person we haven't mentioned today is sept amc clark, and it's manager that -- she's one of the leading

educators born to a haitian mother in 1898 of the whole civil rights period. highlander folk school in tennessee that trained activists, that trained organizers. these are the folks who really helped transform america in a resisting america, right? and that resistance continues, so we should not be surprised at that resistance because it's always been part of, a thread, part of the fabric of our society. >> host: this e-mail is from oakland, california. it's from elvin brown. i'm from oakland, do you think genderfication is changing in communities? >> guest: we've seen that both in washington, d.c. and i go back to d.c. 20 years. new york city from i'm from, harlem, you think about u street, there were times when i was a young man in graduate school i would walk down u street, and i would never see a white face.

and it's completely different now. and, you know, you noted harlem is the same way. i just was at apollo speaking at an mlk event a couple of months ago, and i remember walking through the streets of harlem and never seeing any white people, and now, you know, i see a bunch of white peoplement and the positives of that are economic development and let's try to get racial integration and harmony, but the negatives are -- and this happens in brooklyn, new york, fort green as well which i go back a long way with -- is removing and the forced displacement of poor black people. people who are poor, but it doesn't mean that they're ignorant. people who lack formal education, but it doesn't mean they're uneducated. these are people who are the so so-called salt of the earth types. these are people in beauty shops and barbershops who take care of their children, who go to church, some are atheists, some are secular or who are really part of this american story. but when it come to gentry

gentrification, what it does is lock them out of opportunity, right? so what you want is a gentrified community where you finally, you know, brooklyn brownstones where black, white, latino are mixing side by side but not that we're just displacing poor people who can't afford a brownstone that costs one or two million dollars, or they can't afford a condominium that costs $800,000. so i think gentrification's having a real impact. because urban america is being revitalized at the same time in the '60s we called it negro removal instead of urban renewal. >> host: the first book that peniel joseph wrote came out in 2006, "waiting til the midnight hour." "dark days, bright nights" came out in 2014 and "stokely: a life," brand new, hot off the presses, and it is booktv's book club selection for the month of march, 2014. booktv.org up there in the top there's a tab that says "book

club." just click on that, and you can participate in our discussion throughout the month. peniel joseph, thanks for being on booktv. >> guest: thank you for having me. >> c-span, created by america's cable companies in 1979, brought to you as a public service by your television provider. >> next on booktv, paul kenger presents his thoughts on what it means to be a reagan conservative. this is about an hour and 15 minutes. [applause] >> thank you, ashley. and thank you, andrew. andrew coffman, a grove city college graduate. one of -- can i think andrew was maybe in my first class i taught at grove city