university, examines the decline in college graduates from low to middle income families. look for these titles in bookstores this coming week and watch for the authors in the near future booktv and on booktv.org. >> up next, author and professor peniel joseph. the black power movement expert talks about the rewriting of postwar black history, misconceptions about the civil rights movement and the obama era's place in race relations. editor of five nonfiction books including "waiting til the midnight hour," "dark days, bright nights," and his 2014 release, "stokely: a life." .. >> host: peniel joseph, who is this? >> he was born on june 24, 1941 in trinidad. he is early going to become a

watershed iconic activist of the civil rights and black power era. he is popularizing that term on june 15, 1966 in greenwood, mississippi. and he becomes this icon of the late 1960s. carmichael is going to be stoically carmichael is going to be the most controversial black activist since malcolm x, he is friends with martin luther king jr. civil rights for the next 30 years he becomes a revolutionary organizer who changes his name in honor of two of his political mentors in africa who were both the first

presidents of their country's respectively. he takes the first name and third name. >> host: what part of the civil rights movement was he involved in? >> when we think about maclean he is involved in every major action between 1960 and 1965 in the civil rights movement, second half, he is a sit in demonstrator involved in the nonviolent coordinating committee, he is a freedom rider, and arrested for the first time on june 8, 1961, in mississippi, spends weeks in parchment penitentiary, the city's worst prison farm. he is the howard university student activist, part of this group called the non-violent action group. he spends time in mississippi

every single summer where he is working with sharecroppers, working with young people, working on voter registration enduring freedom summer in 1964 he is one of the project directors, but the second congressional district in the mississippi delta. an extraordinary activist and he marches with martin luther king jr. in alabama. the christian leadership conference leaves after montgomery. stokely carmichael and his co-workers going to lawrence county, alabama, a county really in the black belt of alabama. they work with sharecroppers and start independent the little people organizing and that is the root of the original black panther party cell by 1966, john lewis is now congressman, he is really representing the radical

face of the civil rights movement and also this militant radical insurgency that will become known as black power so when we think about carmichael and civil rights he is a key organizer in civil rights but is the only major black power figure who had done that kind of day-to-day organizing as a civil rights activist. >> host: what was the relationship? >> they have a good relationship. he needs john lewis in 1961 at a restaurant where john lewis is one of the people on the freedom ride in may of 1969, they're going to go into alabama. there are a couple buses, a greyhound bus, trailway is bus, lewis is going to be added dinner, stoically is going to meet him at that dinner and some of those activists who are going to be on the buses i call it the last supper because there are 12 of them not counting james farmer of course, they are

feeling like their lives are in potential danger. their lives were in danger. airbuses are going to be violently attacked in alabama. stoically eventually is going to join the crusade by june but they are friends. john lewis when he meets stokely carmichael spending time with him in jail they are both in mississippi jails, he likes and on the spot instantly. they're going to become adversaries by 1966 because stokely carmichael will run for chairmanship of snake. john lewis is a very courageous activist, he is a heroic figure but certainly he wanted to continue to be chairman of snake. once he is replaced error is bad feeling. >> host: was it because of the non-violence of john lewis? >> not because of the

non-violence. what is going on with stokely carmichael replacing john lewis, stokely carmichael was a day today organizer within the non-violent coordinating committee. john lewis was chairman but by 1965-66 john lewis is going to white house conferences, really a figure who is not necessarily in touch with the day today activity the same way someone mike stokely carmichael is. snick is becoming more radicalized because what they experienced on the ground. stokely carmichael famously said in the south snick experience brought terror, he means not only police brutality and brutality from local vigilantes' but the fact that the federal government and a lot of ways was not proactive in defending civil rights workers in the struggle for liberation, freedom and democracy as they should have

been. atlantic city in 1964 is a turning point because snick activists and local mississippi activist for the mississippi freedom democratic party and famously a sharecropper from mississippi is one of the leading activists and organizers of this mississippi freedom democratic party. they try to organize an integrated delegation to be seated at a democratic national convention in atlantic city in august of 1964 and they think if they played by the rules the democratic party will allow them to be seated. very famously lyndon johnson sent a different surrogates, famously people like hubert humphrey and walter mondale to say they will not be seated because lyndon johnson doesn't want mississippi regulars who are all white where segregation -- to walk out of the convention, cause a scene and

cost all the southern delegates to walk out of the convention. what happens is true democracy is lost at the democratic national convention and the irony is not lost on people like not only stokely carmichael but bob moses, sandy lew hayman, activists who were organizing in the south, doing the right thing, they were organizing for citizenship and democracy and those democratic stirrings get trounced by, ironically, the democratic party, the president of the united states. that turning point further radicalizes snick and especially stokely carmichael who's starts to argue there is no way to get political power except independently and autonomously. the democrat party is not going to be a vehicle for black political power. some people disagreed with stokely carmichael. for stokely carmichael and snick, we are going to see a push for independence black

political organizing and eventually black power. >> host: did stokely carmichael have a relationship with lyndon johnson? >> guest: no, they never meet that certainly they talk about one another extensively and they are aware that the other exists. what is interesting is lyndon johnson privately talks about stokely carmichael, different interviews where people say they heard him speak about stokely carmichael. he is critical that 18 and certainly stokely carmichael is accused anti-war activist. one of the most interesting things about his life is when we look at the 1960s he is a major anti vietnam war activist and vociferously speaking out against the war even before dr. king comes out against the war. carmichael's anti-war activism is going to be inspirational to dr. king and that is something

they even talk about. >> host: in april of 1998, c-span interview it kwame ture a few months before he died and he talked about the fbi. since his use and on the record that the fbi may have given you this cancer. >> i'm certain they did. the fbi is well advanced in germ and chemical warfare, extremely it fenced and no questions that after the assassination of martin luther king they themselves claimed in their intelligence magazines they had to change the method of eliminating what they considered to be leaders and of course germ and chemical warfare is one of the best ways to do it. >> any number of ways. we say jokingly that if in the 1600s indians could get smallpox by osmosis they could give us cancer with laser beams.

of course germ and chemical warfare. >> is the fbi watching now all the time? >> host: did the fbi watch stokely carmichael? >> guest: absolutely. they had a counterintelligence program that had initially been started in 1950s and to really watch the verses, it was anti-communist. it quickly becomes something that is used to provide surveillance over civil rights activists, pro-democracy activists, black power revolutionaries, anti-war activists. carmichael has an extensive fbi file. stokely carmichael, kwame ture, state department, united states intelligence services, fbi is watching him all the time, especially after the black power speech of june of 1966.

he writes in his own autobiography how federal agents are harassing him, cars that are constantly behind him, it is something that takes its toll and he is definitely going to be an pecans and surveillance. the white house requests twice weekly briefings on stokely carmichael, that is directly from lyndon johnson and his special assistant. marvin watson. the surveillance on stokely carmichael is very extensive. by the time he travels overseas in 1967 very famously takes a five month world tour and travels to cuba, london, vietnam, even algeria, tanzania and guinea, west africa where he meets up with kwame ture. he is being followed throughout. is a difficult process for him. once he becomes this national

political leader in this international icon and figure he is definitely under surveillance. so his first wife was a south african singer. >> host: in your 2010 book "dark days, bright nights: from black power to barack obama," you write that black power did not suddenly appear in northern cities after 1965 as an alternative to civil rights activists. instead it existed alongside its most celebrated setting base counterparts. mutual antagonism cut off black radicals from white allies and traditional civil rights leaders. on occasion both camps did foreign powerful with provisional alliances. >> that is true. when you think about black power and civil rights one of the interesting parts of studying postwar american history is this idea that civil rights is now in 2014 become nationally commemorated.

while civil rights was unfolding especially the heroic periods between 64-65 this was a hotly contested, hotly debated controversial movement. americans did not universally even when you look at public opinion polls think that civil rights was a good thing. people the majority of what americans felt the movement was moving too fast. 50 years later we really have embraced that movement. black power has not undergone the same rehabilitation. black power is considered the evil twin of the civil rights movement, the movement that wrecked a more positive movement for social justice. and urban black militants. urban black -- stokely carmichael, violent anti white attitudes. and watch how would unfolded, we see something different. these are african-american

activists, sometimes not just african-american activists but black activists, some from the caribbean and some dramatic as well. they were trying to have radical political transformation. they argued civil rights reform was not enough but they had a relationship with civil rights activists. sometimes they straddle both camps of civil rights and black power. what was the black power movement? it was a call for radical social, economic self-determination. it was a call for black people to define their own gold strategies and tactics, how they defined identity, how they define citizenship, also how they were going to define liberation and freedom. when we think of civil rights and black power, even though stokely carmichael popularizes the term in 1966 the movement predates and 18. there were other people who used

that phrase before but malcolm x, the avatar of that movement. we think of malcolm in the 1950s and the northern activists in new york, detroit, chicago, oakland, los angeles, st. louis, they are fighting to try to transform existing institutions, the vote is part of it but it goes beyond that. they are fighting for public schools, the end of police brutality, fighting for jobs, they are doing all these movements for social political transformation but also very intimately there is an intimate understanding that anti colonial struggles happening in africa in the third world, between 1957-1962 there will be 25 different african nation states that achieve independence sometimes violently and sometimes peacefully. they are connecting those struggles with struggle against jim crow and racial segregation.

the black power movement is connected with the black freedom struggle that is going on in postwar america. it is not something that just comes into play and it will have many different facets. certainly the main thrust is going to be radical but there will be revolutionaries, some who are black nationalists, some who are marxist but there will be black power feminists, there will be some who are liberal and some who are interested in electing more officials, more politicians. sometimes you have a connection between radicals and liberals to try to get things like black mayors elected and black congressman elected in the 60s and 70s. what is interesting is how multifaceted and panoramic is. it really goes from welfare rights activists, black nationalists who are street corner activists, sharecroppers

in lawrence county who are part of the black panther party, the black panther party for self-defense in oakland and people like bobby seale, kathleen cleaver, stokely carmichael at the national level but you have things like student strikes and sit ins from howard university in d.c. san francisco city college, creating a black student unions and this movement for black studies so it is some multiple multifaceted movement, where ultimately it is a movement that is trying to redefine what politics means in the united states and redefine not just american democracy but american society in the united states and things like citizenship and freedom, of liberation, mean. >> host: in your first book, "'til the midnight hour: a narrative history of black power in america," you talk about the importance of the afro asian

conference in 1955? >> guest: this was a conference that talked about a third world solidarity, non-aligned movement, representatives from 29 different nations with a population of over a billion people getting together under indonesian president and making the argument they want to be outside the sphere of influence from western capitalism or soviet-style socialism but what is interesting is band tuned is going to impress upon people like malcolm x, what we need in the united states is this kind of united front of all politically oppressed peoples, not just african-americans but people who are oppressed, people of color. when you think of the afro-asian conference we will see real reverberations in the black power movement and in the 1960s

and 70s in terms of social movements arguing there have to be these alliances that are across race. >> host: how much in fighting was there? >> there is definitely a lot of disagreement and debate. when we think of civil rights, black power, the things that people could agree on were big and broad like we need to defeat segregation, we need to end police brutality, we need economic justice for all people in the united states but especially poor black people who are not getting their fair share. there were huge differences in how those things would be achieved. the different ideological debate that are happening, different strategic debates that bold these things down versus self-defense and integration versus separation or racial

separatism, it is more complex than that on what kind of society is america. you think about civil rights activists, there is a perspective that america was a society that could be reformed, transformed. if you got the right legislation, if you got the right chord or judicial victory, that is when we think of a heroic period of the civil rights movement, all the legislation that is past, the supreme court decision in the brown decision, the civil rights act, july 2nd, 1964, the voting rights act aug. sixth 1965, and fair housing or open housing, those -- that is the perspective that says the state can be reformed. the way in which the state or institutions treat african

americans or racial justice can win out. think about black power radicals and revolutionaries a lot of time they had a different perspective which led to fighting. united states is not a true genuine democracy. the united states was not just a gap between democratic rhetoric and reality but the united states was building a postwar empire from that perspective. black power revolutionaries, the united states was an imperial power. the war in vietnam showed it in which black people in urban ghetto retreated by the police in state violence, the perspective that was needed was a movement that talked about anti imperialism, a movement that would be critical of capitalism, they made the argument that capitalism had never produced and achieve the quality for african-americans so

what is interesting about these divergences is they are based on different perspectives of american history and the place of african-american history, what is interesting surprisingly historically is where someone like martin luther king jr. fits into the struggle because when we think of the historical memory of dr. king, we stopped him in time, he freeze frame 1963, the march on washington, he is opening up that speech, now is the time to make real the promise of democracy. when we think about the speech, we remember i have a dream but talking about preparation, this uncashed check for insufficient funds and we refuse to believe the bank of democracy is bankrupt. the last year of martin luther king's life we find a much

angrier, vociferous king that nationally we refuse to acknowledge. the triple threat, militarism, racism and materialism. this is the same king who shares the stage with stokely carmichael on april 15th, 1967, massive anti-war protest in new york city that goes from central park to united nations, 300,000 people are there, it stokely carmichael will not support bill bj's rays in vietnam. they meet up afterwards in harry belafonte's apartment and stokely carmichael is teasing dr. king that he came out against the war publicly. his activism is for dr. king, more publicly talk about the vietnam war. different journalists and commentators said indeed that dr. king was following stokely carmichael's robust and public

criticism against the vietnam war. >> host: from "'til the midnight hour: a narrative history of black power in america" which came out in 2006, as black powers glow faded, malcolm x would age best. his progenitor, is confident exterior, fiery speeches and perpetual use would symbolize the historic unfulfilled promise of afro-american. >> the signal figure of the black power movement and when we think of the idea of postwar african-american history, malcolm x is that significant watershed figure, malcolm, martin, stokely carmichael, malcolm is interesting because what happened to malcolm in a way parallels what happened to martin luther king in our

national imagination. we think of malcolm x and the aftermath of his assassination, february 21st, 1965, sort of an evil genius who didn't use his brilliance to help his people and died in the same manner that his rhetoric advocated in a violent way. people are critical of malcolm x, the publication of the autobiography of malcolm x in 1965, published after a big publishing house drops the contract, the immediate best-seller, so malcolm was a major figure in the african-american community. over the last 20 years, 23 years in spike lee's movie, became rehabilitated in the national

context when malcolm proceeds more an acceptable figure even though every now and then you will hear about controversy, public schools saying kids shouldn't study malcolm x but african-american parents say they have to read the autobiography of malcolm x because he was not just come cut profit of rage. in terms of books and what my scholarship tried to do, really different authors and historians and scholars are doing with malcolm is investigating a 3-dimensional figure, a profit of range in this iconic figure. and what is interesting about malcolm x what a major figure he is when he is a live. in 1964, african leaders and revolutionaries, he is planning to go to the united nations and

accused the united states of racism and human-rights violations, organizing across ideological lines even before he breaks with the nation of islam, a hugely important figure but we are all coming to terms with how complex a figure he was common coming to terms with a portrait of malcolm x goes beyond cliche, defies cliche, such a powerful figure that we are most comfortable with malcolm as this person who is hectoring to us, when basting the united states of america. he is certainly doing that but is also a hugely charismatic figure that is usually humorous, funny man who if you allow him and his energy, he is an

impressive figure. and stoically carmichael, who see him when they're very young. he comes to howard university october 30th, 1961, and stokely carmichael famously says he is going to help organize around malcolm's visit as long as he can be on the front row when malcolm comes to speak and malcolm is debating, really hugely important figure, black social democratic activist openly homosexual, organizer, main organizer of the march on washington, someone who has gone to india, africa, studied non-violence, spent time in prison as a conscientious objector, influenced stokely carmichael greatly, he meets him in high school in the bronx, when he sees by rustin speak, he says that is to i want to be when i grow up.

these influences are interesting. we have rest in debating malcolm x at howard university in 1961. and sort of that is acutely important period for somebody like stokely carmichael because he is influenced by byron ruston but is listening to malcolm x and becoming further radicalized. >> host: good afternoon and welcome to booktv's "in depth" program. this is our monthly program when we invite one author to talk about his or her body of work. this month it is tufts university university professor peniel joseph his first book came out in came out in 2006, midnight hour: a narrative history of black power in america," "dark days, bright nights: from black power to barack obama" came out in 2010 and his most recent book is "stokely: a life". .. life. it is brand-new to this month. we are going to put their phone numbers on the screen. 202, 585, 3800.

and for those of you further out west, if you want to send in a tweet or e-mail, apple tv is our twitter handle. if you like to make comment there, front and center on our home page. finally you can send an e-mail to at booktv@c-span.org. what do you teach? >> guest: i teach courses on the black power movement and the civil rights movement and african-american history and a seminar on the black panther party and african-american history and politics. >> host: you also teach at harvard when i. >> guest: i have been a fellow at harvard but no, i teach as well. >> host: were to do it at

school? >> guest: i went to stony brook university for underground. and i received my phd and definitely want to shout out as well. i grew up in queens, new york. my mother is watching and it's hugely influential in my life. african-american boys, she raised two of us. my other brother is a doctor outside of baltimore and my mother was very keen on me becoming a historian and activist because she worked on this endless pot of this

situation. she basically was my first history teacher. also the person who taught me to believe in social justice and standing up for your own belief. >> host: you reference being on the picket line with her. >> guest: yes, some strikes that were going along right there with her. and that occurred more than once. it showed me growing up in new york city, especially during the 1980s. some of which continue to reverberate in that. but it's still very acutely since the 1980s. from that perspective ronald reagan was president and all of these different things were

going on. so it's really a very grounding experience to be in a family that respected history and really the lives and struggles showing that was a great time to be on. the people that were really struggling. >> host: you consider yourself an activist? is not just my voice considered myself an activist in that context. so many women and men who are scholars and poets and artists and she was an activist in her own way and i still try even as

an academic. but beyond the confines of the ivory or ebony towers, to speak at community centers and to do praecox with those who are struggling to want this information. and it's also an honor to be with someone who is a historian and who is a teacher and a writer. and i think that that is our number one thing. getting her phd in so many african-american people were so proud and i would try to tell the story of the black freedom struggle intimate that my life's work. so it's very important to me that this is not just his profession to me that really a vocation that i want to share that with the general public and

also people who are poor and those who might be incarcerated. people who really don't have the same access and privileges that i have had. the. >> host: young since you have been a part of this. we have an e-mail. three years before the rise of the black power movement, to what extent did his political legacy is a black scholar and intellectual influence the black power movement with stokely carmichael. >> guest: i think it is a great question. those of us who are african-american intellectuals could not imagine living in a world where they did not exist.

he is the leading sociologist political scientist, and really one, and one of the best that the united states has ever produced. right there with people like william james and the definitive transformation intellectual of our time. so he certainly influences the black power movement whether it's black reconstruction in revisiting is a history of reconstruction blocking activism at the center of that in criticizing the way in which they prevented blacks and whites from getting together after the aftermath of the civil war. in terms of placing black people at the center of the study of

history and sociology and political science and so it's hugely important. stokely in the 1960s references this double consciousness and certainly he had talked about boys being one of his influences. he writes so much and he's so prodigious. not to mention the activism with the naacp. and he has 10 africanism and he ends up in ghana and he lived 95 years of age. he just has an incredible activist and scholar and not

only does the civil rights movement but the movement of black power as well post back what about garvey's influence? >> guest: garvey and marcus garvey is a jamaican activist and a radical who comes to the united states really does meet up in washington and he really is inspired by booker t. washington's determination. but he takes this in different ways and he has this critique and wants to build black institution that are robustly or even defiantly part of this. so he talks about how you can accomplish what you will. so in a way he is the quintessential black national and pan african asked he speaks

defiantly and really sparks reasoning that becomes the largest black movement in american history and it's really a global movement. they are building businesses and the father of malcolm x. and mother of him go out in nebraska to pioneer and they founded this and they could not have had this without garvey. so really organizing people to believe that this can be created in a way that not this parallels the white institution but redefines what it means to be black. >> host: from black base and white knights, you say obama has

accepted the civil rights and black power movement and obama himself represents this. >> guest: yes, i think that's a quote that has sometimes been misunderstood. and some people read that and think that i'm trying to make a claim that obama, barack obama, whose politics are neoliberal is somehow an inheritor of the revolutionary legacy for someone like stokely carmichael or the black panthers. and he purposely had his iconography and he talked about the fact that howie was the generation that metaphorically represented the and he really

used the civil rights movement in the iconography in a way that the president had ever used it before. and he never really talks about black power. so the argument that i made is that it wasn't just double right that transformed the result landscape, but also lack power radicalism. and it really push the envelope area people like stokely were forced -- they force united states into a different posture. that wasn't necessarily anything that revolutionaries wanted. sometimes the reverberations of the activism took directions that they never would have anticipated were appreciated were approved a very but certainly they were defiantly central when we think of african

elected officials and black studies being incorporated and institutionalized in american higher education. we also think of racial identity and african-americans going from being people of color in the 1940s or 1950s, it becomes central to identities. and that is the nomenclature of the time that was central to reimagine it in the united states and blackeye kennedy in the united states. from that perspective obama is the beneficiary of not just double right but a black power and somehow would approve of obama politics but that he

actually benefited from a changed racial landscape. >> host: this is our book selection for the month of march. brand-new on the market. if you'd like to join the conversation throughout the month, pickup the book and you can go to the tv.org and you will be able to make comments and we will post discussion questions throughout the month as well and we will invite professor joseph to participate as well and keep an eye on that and answer some of the questions. so it is our book club selection through the month of august. we have an e-mail here is to continue to tie all this together a little bit. good afternoon, professor joseph. i have two questions for you in

regards to the black panther party. the first question is after the release, what is your assessment of his decision to relocate the members to oakland and the question is if you were to live to 2014, with what would julie newton's opinion have been of the state of black america. this is from hakim who commented. >> guest: i think that the movement can be a mistake vis-à-vis not understanding the potential. and it's really a decision that is founded in oakland which all are in existence to calm and relocate and when you look at sources of this all across the united states, that is the

decision makes in the early 70s. i think that that will be a mistake and many historians say that that decision is really negative and negatively impacts the panthers because a core groups of activists around the country. and the panthers are really in a transition by the early 1990s really for one more pragmatic reform. they make the argument that oakland is going to be the basis of operations for this revolution and they are doing continuous community programs with massive giveaways of turkey dinners and food and close.

certainly closing the chapter is not all chapters are open. some have continued to operate and function and then some have a negative effect. especially when it comes to things like incarceration, we are in a dire state of emergency. one of the reasons why the templars were founded was to end police brutality. this is the impact of the drug war and the victims of that drug war. he would say that it's in dire straits and it's part of that is to advocate in the 1960s and 70s, that it's still relevant to the black community today. >> host: to julie newton and

bobby seale remained friends? >> guest: well there was a break. there certainly was a break. it depends on what historical sources or memoirs you have listened to. and certainly he believed that by 1974 and he dies in 1989 and they leave acrimoniously. so part of this is connected to the struggle in his own struggle in his own personal demon that he is struggling with area so they did not stay friends throughout. >> host: martin, our first caller. please go ahead. >> caller: thank you, professor. i disagree with you in so many areas. i really don't know where to begin. i think people like yourself do more harm in the long run to the

black community than they help. i think that you suffer from what we call the plantation mentality. when you think that the government is the answer to your problems are i would love to see the black community take on some of the values of the present day white community and think of themselves not as afro-americans but as americans. i was a former member of 1199 and it's tinged with one or communist 1199. advocating the social justice. nothing just about social justice is not just a form of communism in the new world. >> host: i think we got your point there. what did you think of stokely carmichael?

>> caller: absolutely. many were nothing but racist drones. they did serve a useful purpose but i think that most of them had done harm for the black people than good. >> guest: i think you get that kind of perspective. but social justice is not communism. their other people who leave and it there are also liberals and conservatives and independents who believe in social justice and it's not just people who are doing this and people that i grew up around as well. and they have many different political affiliations and beliefs. they believe in health care and education and especially for those that are poor and

marginalized. >> post that we have gone from richmond, virginia. >> caller: how are you doing. i want to question. you have mentioned why have blacks and islamists ignored certain aspects. like they never existed and there would be no person named malcolm asked without the nation of islam. there would be just a guy who would probably die within needle in his arm. and there's just no question. >> host: are you a member of the nation of islam? >> caller: no, i'm not.

>> guest: i think that when we think about how the nation talks about the books of biographies of elisha mohammed and books that look at the nation of islam and malcolm asked, and i say that part of it is tapping the history. because the nation will start in the 1930s and it will proceed in one fashion up until his death in 1975. and then it will be transformed by one of his sons and then louis farrakhan is going to reignite and restart the nation of islam that is based on the belief that he is the messenger in the 1980s and i think that part of it has to do with passing a complicated history. certainly i do agree that when

we speak with people about this. who are more interested in the in the nation of islam and certainly as an activist and who he becomes, the nation goes on to talk about who he becomes. >> host: we have this tweet. speaking about the influence that they had on the activism of african liberation ending apartheid. >> guest: yes, miriam is very influential with certain cultural figures and artist and activist in their own right. and that is his first wife. and she was nine years older than she had been listening to me in the 1950s and he famously says that he is going

to marry that woman and he actually does end up marrying her. he was introduced to her by harry belafonte who had introduced them to a global audience. so he was interested in anti-apartheid activism and she had spoke out forcefully against them and were living in exile. and also she's this beautiful woman who is considered as world-renowned individual and someone who wants to be around him. john f. kennedy makes a point of having her come and she's just so proud in 1962. and so it's very important

because in a way they provided stokely with this and she is a more well-known leader of stokely carmichael. by marrying her with different treatments like an official diplomat and they both are. but they will treat you very important and they get the more personalized understanding of the struggle in africa. always saying that black people wherever they are, they are african. and that we are all africans. whether from harlem or haiti or birmingham, alabama, and so what's interesting is their aim is crucial and they are

international celebrities. one thing that i think is interesting about politics and movements in the 60s in a way that is different from our contemporary society is that activism is something that is in a large manner considered to be having an impact on popular culture. and carmichael is that. this is not to diminish him but just to give a context of things, what happens when this activist has done on the cover of ebony magazine and others in all these different magazines and someone who is very enormously charismatic. how would they proceed both

within the black community and there is an iconography of the black panther party not only just a political party but a party that that is very seductive and sexy. and so we think about all of that being wrapped up in here. and she's someone who has a very keen understanding and becomes very close and miriam comes a real conduit to die. >> they did not have any children. and they did not have any

children. >> the younger ones i am not sure. but what from what i understand, between london and new york. >> host: and they participate in your book? >> guest: no, they did not. >> caller: to hear you express this in such an intelligent place, many of my comrades have ran crazy or have been disillusioned. to hear this, we have completely ignored people like malcolm and stokely. >> host: why were you a member of this? >> caller: i grew up in los angeles and i saw a lot of craziness that the lapd

projected. and it changed my thinking. i grew up in a house where people said be proud to be american, and i saw that there were so many hypocrisies that america was not living up to it. and then when the war came there were a lot of friends that went off and die. and all this push me towards that. >> host: we doing today? >> caller: i'm an artist. but still active. >> host: what is the importance of oakland to your generation of african-americans? >> caller: i was always drawn here because there were cultural and clinical things happening area and we were traveling from los angeles to come here for

african liberation day and other cultural and political events. to open has always been the harlem of the west coast. >> guest: that's a great perspective. i think that oakland is very neat. i appreciate the comments. we talked about carmichael, but certainly anita blackwell, so many different activist were a big part of this movement. and so i think that there are so many different people who were a part of this and they have not been given their dues. so i think that part of what is important about talking about people like stokely carmichael,

and i think that i try to do this in the biography is look at the activist who held to shape than and who they helped to shape. it's always this relational struggle and it's really the history of the way in which these activists move up with different people who become teachers. it ended mississippi he found teachers. and these are people who are not formally educated. and these are people that we were not formally educated by. they were the best teachers that he had ever had. and not just him, but people that were part of this. ..and have enough humility to learn from people who are sharecroppers. these are people who were in the united states in the 1960s.

and it was extraordinary. so i think it is important to give any credence to honor what the activists were able to do to transform america. >> host: he grew up in l.a. what are the important of the african-american community to ma why did they start? >> it starts august 11th, 1965, and most of the racial civil disturbances of the 1916s stars as the result of disputes of local residents and police, local residents argue the police had a pattern of abuse for decades. the police say they were trying to enforce the law. this is another incident of when local residents, they will

enforce the law. it is millions and on edge. when you think about what scum, it is a game changer, martin luther king jr. and is heckled by local press routes black people, watts is an example of social injustice, the impact of social injustice in this neighborhood in los angeles. there had been an uprising in harlem in 1964. birmingham had rioting or civil disturbances regarding depending on your ideological perspective in 63 but watts is so big and

the irony of what is it comes 5 days after the passage of the voting rights act so in a way, it is a game changer. people will argue watts is an example of government texas, the great society is giving too much too fast to african-americans and were paying the nation with rioting but at that point, it misses the fact that what watts was emblematic of was a century of racial segregation and jim crow and economic injustice of racial oppression, people had gotten too much access, they had actually had too land what becomes politically for civil rights, when you think about terms like burn baby burn and this ideas that urban of raising

to be used as leverage for political transformation that becomes part of the debate. when you think of the idea of the new right of barry goldwater and modern day conservatism watts is key there too because it becomes a symbol of what people are saying is liberalism's access. as a black power access it has not gone far enough. civil rights activist light king is saying watts is an example of the language of the unheard. it is very interesting, watts is up to that point of all roszak test, depending on vote you.of whats it gives us up perspective of what you think about the social movements of the 60s and aspirations of american society. is it an example of excess, or people had so much social misery that the only way to respond

after willey, a century of this segregation and brutality is with that amount. >> host: if you can't get through on the phone lines to professor peniel joseph you can tweet at booktv or send the question via facebook, facebook.com/booktv or booktv@c-span.org. raymond in kalamazoo, mich. how are you? >> i wanted to say how proud i am of professor joseph, so much so outstanding and i couldn't believe -- all the information he has but more importantly, we have the same ethnic origins. i am proud of being haitian.

and say is that. might university -- somewhere else. i apologize. i apologize. i am just saying -- he is the greatest. keep up the good work, prof. joseph. >> guest: he was saying in haitians sometimes people say haitian creole, supposed to say haitian and not creole as the language and saying in haitian that he is proud of me and going to get in touch with me and keep doing what i am doing.

>> host: i caught several -- >> guest: the language that is spoken in haiti, haitian and french the official languages. my mom speaks english, haitian, french and spanish, i grew up listening. >> host: did she intersperse them all? >> guest: not at the same time. i am proud to be patient and that provides a unique perspective because haitian and african-american being born in new york city, growing up around haitian and african-american, and a unique vantage point culturally and intellectually to investigate figures in the black freedom struggle and especially someone like stokely carmichael from trinidad so his caribbean background is a big part of who he is yet he comes to the united

states, lives in the bronx, lives in mississippi, alabama, washington d.c. and lives in africa for 30 years and an extraordinary diaspora journey that he takes and all the while continues to say he is an african but certainly haiti because of 1804 and the first black republic in the western hemisphere from a colony of slaves to a republic of citizens, and the black freedom struggle as well. >> host: in your view where does stokely carmichael rank when it comes to the civil rights/black power movement? >> guest: he ranks highly. one of the arguments that i make in the biography is when we think of the 60s i call the last icon of the 60s in the sense that there is a triumvirate when we look at these watershed

activists, these truly global activists describe the world stage, that is dr. king, malcolm x and also stokely carmichael as a bridge between civil rights and black power. the fact he leaves for africa has reduced in the american imagination or western imagination his place among the pantheon of activists. if you are not here in the united states and/or you have not been martyred because if he had been assassinated would have been a different story. the fact that he continues to live and organize and believe in revolutionary politics of the 60s, long past the expiration date in the american imagination or western imagination makes him something of somebody who baffles' an enigma, and the civil rights leader who coined the phrase black power when he was so much more.

he was an incredibly important figure, the only major icon activists of that period, day-to-day organizer, some of the biggest hotspots in the south, and you see stokely carmichael. you are a freedom writers and see him there, sit in demonstrations you see there. an incredible trajectory. by the time he becomes black power national leader, people knew who he was including martin luther king jr. at howard university in 1963 but people knew tufts university 18. look magazine profiled him in 1964. really masterpieces speaks for the negro in 1965 as you can include in that anthology, the black power speech in mississippi takes it to

extraordinary transcendent level. >> host: michael in fayette, alabama. >> caller: it is a genuine privilege and honor to talk to you. i have two big questions which i will try to make as brief as possible. if the people at c-span don't mind if they could give him a chance to answer one of them before i ask the second and then i will hang up. to the previous white conservative scholar at the beginning, martin, he appears as an able-bodied white males under, let me deeply apologize for his implications that, quote, the government, blacks expect governments to solve these problems. >> host: why do you feel need to apologize? >> caller: the region where i come from too many especially

with protestantism conservatism is so rampant down here is that they almost make my savior out to be unregulated free market capitalists. to that, united way agencies , after-school programs and other self-help programs that demand people do something to improve their own lives many of which i have done art therapy and music therapy. >> host: can you bring this to a conclusion? >> caller: the past causes of so many problems today, any generation of children don't know about, and teens hardly remember from history classes, that is the way it was when i was a kindergartner and nursery school drew much of the time dr. joseph is mentioning and i heard vietnam all the time on tv news

without understanding, knowing the context. would he address some of these causes that to me largely a white male has an to today's inner-city problems during that time such as william moses, ed moses, new york state superintendent -- >> host: what is your second question? >> guest: bob moses. >> host: what is your second question? >> caller: one scenario would love to see, right end fiscal conservatives on while st. and other secular conservatives like and are a members who are indifferent to the problem of gun ownership by law-abiding citizens. >> host: what is your question? >> caller: secular liberals in hollywood with directors guild. >> host: i apologize. we are just a little bit not quite on time. what would you like to respond to? >> guest: he was talking about

one of the points that what happened in the 1960s wear the black community is expecting federal government handout. is important to understand american history and this brings me back to the founding of the nation and we think of our nation our nation is founded in racial slavery so we have the movie 12 years as slaves that is a snapshot portrait of that and sometimes people say that movie was hard to watch and that response that the movies too hard to watch is an examplet response that the movies too hard to watch is an example where americans have remembered to forget that the crucible of this country at the core of the national saw that is slavery and slavery produces a system of white supremacy in the united states and when we think of the civil rights movement 100 years after he cavery after the civil war was fought there will be a century of racial segregation so reconstruction was supposed to

bring about citizenship because african-americans fought and died in the civil war in segregated units. they did not have their freedom handed to the-silver platter. they fought, struggled and died for it but immediately after the civil war and this is documented in black reconstruction as well as many other books, what we saw is the rise of white supremaduc politically, t imlturally and economically, brittle, rigid wrenching, racial segregation. and domestics and black men can only get menial labor and this is the united states of america, land of the free, the home of the brave, the sec huge fundamental contradictions, when we get to the civil rights movement in the 1960s even if dohere is a group of white americans who don't realize that

history. they participated in that, when that history suge up racial and economic hiring, and extended after world war ii to white ugehnics that had previouhe cy n discriminated against. people like italians and irish, jewish american, different folks who have been discriminated post world war ii that idea at the identity of being white american is the multi ethnic identity, yet african-american, black folks are still on the lowest common denominator. denominator economically and politically and socially and racially. so it's interest in its that it's not that the 60s are social activists demanding that federal governments do more or have more handout, but trying to collectively reimagine american society and american democracy and produce an america that works for all people irrespective of race or gender

or class or background. and from that perspective you from that perspective you can understand civil rights and black power much more easily. is not about handout for people waiting on the government. it is demanding of government that it distorted and defamed what democracy was supposed to be, what citizenship was supposed to be. what its own constitution proclaimed. is not just me saying this. dr. king says it, malcolm x elevates it. activists and organizations said it. >> host: judith bryant e-mails in to peniel joseph with all the strong black men what happened to the black power movement and how did they fail to empower a generation of younger men who have been mired in dire straits with 22,000 dead in the last five years, etc.? >> guest: there are a lot of strong black women.

everyone from angela davis, tony there are so many different black women who are part of stokely carmichael and in the biography as well. think about specifically black men and the president talked about black male initiatives and there are all these tragedies, trayvon martin and all these things. what happened is the movement certainly tried to be transforming event in a lot of ways it was but many things happen. when we think of the 1970s, the 1970s are a robust period of radical social activism. labor movement, african-american movement, feminist movement, the state has a different response in the 1970s than in the 60s. there were actually concessions the state produced that the united states government produced in terms of civil rights, the war on poverty in

great society, housing, different concessions. by the 1970s, that is a period of austerity. by 1973 the economy is no longer growing in the same way, in the same manner that it had starting in 1946. ideally 70s it ends for most regular american citizens but part of it is when it comes to the african-american community there are state repression, many are incarcerated, some are killed, many lose their jobs. opportunities are lost, in new york city almost went bankrupt, daily news headline says in new york, dropped dead. we are living in a different united states of america. said the aspiration of a freedom

budget in 1966, hundred billion dollars over ten years to eradicate poverty those things become nonstarters and when it comes to the african-american community if many of the gains the civil rights movement made in the 1916s by the 70s are under attack. most famously affirmative-action in 1978. what is interesting is a few years after affirmative action is institutionalized there are legal challenges that it is reverse discrimination, reverse racism. the supreme court upholds affirmative-action but really narrows it and right now we have states like california that complete the ended and abandoned affirmative-action which is what college campuses like ucla and berkeley hardly had any black folks, especially black men at all. of big part of this is the criminal justice system. criminal justice system has the war on poverty, war on drugs as outlined, michelle ng alexander's book a new jim crow,

the war on drugs became a war on poor african-american communities, specifically for black latino men. we have gone from a 400,000 people in prison in 1980 to 2 million in 2014, ratcheted up by felony drug convictions, non-violent offenders and black men became rounded up in this present industrial complex. it has been a number of different things including economy and public schools that don't work. when we say the economy doesn't work what we mean is since 1980 economic growth in the united states has been predicated upon bubbles. housing bubbles, wall street bubbles, mortgage security bubbles and black people inevitably the person who wants the musical chairs stop, standing up and no chair for them.

the public school system is in crisis. public schools and especially predominantly black and brown neighborhoods not working, not getting the right resources, there's a racial achievement gap that is widening in america and racial segregation continues in the united states, racial segregation, what we call defacto, not by law, it is by happenstance or circumstance, racial segregation runs rampant, black and white kids are less likely to go to school together in certain communities than in the 1960s and 70s, 20 years after brown there was racial integration. this is a lot of complicated issues but fact that we don't think of this as a national crisis is part of our problem. >> host: you are watching booktv's "in depth" program, peniel joseph, tufts university prof. is our guest, his most recent book is brand new,

"stokely: a life". in maryland, please go ahead with your question or comment for peniel joseph. >> caller: i am from guinea and my question is to discuss the general entities today. >> guest: great question. when you think about pan-africanism, the way it is an outgrowth of black nationalism, pan-africanism is the idea that all descendants from the african continent, weather in brazil, united states, haiti, europe are all part of one community, one community that can help the transformation of africa from a colonial past into a postcolonial and not colonial

future. this idea of pan-africanism is this idea of movement and transformation and revolution. anti colonial struggle, armed liberation, intellectual and social and political side of pan-africanism. when we think of marcus garvey, you can accomplish what you will, there are certain pan africanist utah about returning to africa. some people want to make a pilgrimage back to africa. malcolm x did that, did kwame ture who stayed, barack obama went back to kenya and documents that in his book. when we think about pan-africanism is this idea that instead of africa as the be knighted continent, a continent without a history, it is the vibrant historical continent that is one of the cradles of civilization, those descendants who arrived in the new world,

voluntarily or through forced relocation and the transatlantic slave trade, they are all connected and part of a narrative they should know consciously and they should utilize that politically for transformation. pan-africanism still flourishes today in the united states. certainly its high point when we think of civil rights black power period you can argue in the 1970s, 1980s, anti-apartheid movement, african liberation, a support committee, pan-africanism continues to thrive in the united states today. >> host: stokely carmichael, a united africa, what was his vision? >> guest: stokely carmichael has a vision of africa that is based on two political mentors. one is kwame nkuma who is the

most important pan-african africa has seen in the postwar period. the prime minister and president of donna --ghana he has a vision of a united states of africa and provides aid and assistance. assistance. if africa can become unified with one leader and one army, it would have that much more leverage globally and also be able to help black americans who are struggling. so we think when we think about stokely carmichael, he's taking his vision of africa, built on the president of ginnie. in a way, he is the statesman who provides and becomes his post for the first 15 years hos

guinea before he dies. people call them tribal but it is not, is ethnic differences, and africa that is so robust and cohesive that it aids the african-american struggle for civil rights, human rights and social economic justice. >> host: jessica tweets in to you, peniel joseph, what lessons from the life of stokely carmichael did you add to your own after having a walk through history. >> guest: great question. stokely carmichael, kwame ture's legacy is a legacy of resilience, a legacy of deeply principled struggle, a legacy of the humanity of people who are society's dispossessed, those who won the margins. somebody who meets with african rulers, martin luther king,

celebrities, he never forgets who he is and is always comfortable and deferential to these pour black women who are sharecroppers in the delta who are making a way. the lesson is really one of struggle and perseverance and resilience and also a lesson, sometimes david can defeat goliath. what the struggles that he was fighting for nearly 60s, a huge victories in terms of the struggle of voting rights and the struggle for black consciousness, black power was a victory, people criticized the vietnam war and chanting hell no we won't go till the state department, the fbi, the president of united states is trying to amass evidence to charge them with sedition and treason. those were victories, he was

doing the right thing. he was talking about human rights and helping people who were powerless, helping people who were voiceless. >> host: rowland in detroit. >> good afternoon. i was watching the nutty professor and got sick of it. it is a good thing. my point here is a dimension lowest common denominator, how black people are at the bottle. what is in the black community, i think that it is at the bottom of that hole so to speak. back in the day, he leaking newton was born by a gay

activist to support their movement, in the black community, has a lot to do with this force that religious doctrine, so called homophobic and they look at the gay agenda as a white agenda actually. there are a lot of black gay people in america and across the world. and so the position is often looked over and traumatized. do you know anything about huey p. newton's position on the game movement back in the day? >> guest: that is a great

question. q e famously in 1970 offered a statement in support of both gay liberation and women's liberation. this is not that he me didn't have any phobia phobic -- homophobia but in 1970 he came out in support of gay liberation and says that homophobia is preventing african-american activists from seeing the commonalities with the gay liberation movement. that is important. when we think about you are referring specifically to being black and gay, james baldwin, their word these openly gay activists who were a big part of this movement and this struggle. they absolutely should not be ignored, this predates the kind of robust black gay liberation movement that we have now. we have always had gay

african-american freedom fighters, gay and lesbian african-american freedom fighters, so many different others, blacks, lesbian, radical activists so it is an important part and huey definitely does publicly support gay liberation. >> host: "'til the midnight hour: a narrative history of black power in america" came out in 2006, peniel joseph published "dark days, bright nights: from black power to barack obama" in 2010, and "stokely: a life," brand new book, booktv's book club selection for this month. recently the producer of this program visited professor joseph at his home in somerville, mass. to learn about his writing style.

>> sometimes writers will say it is so hard to write and i think it is so hard not to write. with stokely carmichael's newest book, for ten years, even as i was finishing one book, i had another book in mind, which was the second book and he was in their somewhat and anytime i wasn't working on the book, it is in my head and not just floating in my head but pounding and drum beating in my head, how you get this project done. i separate things between archival evidence, things you have gotten and photocopied from the archives, people's speeches, fbi files and primary sources of people's memoirs and their own writing and secondary sources. at times, my notes are divided into two kinds, sometimes index

cards, other times, blank copy paper that i write notes john. sometimes the archival evidence and you think about how to set a scene up and how to set this up and you are writing notes to yourself how to set the scene up. sometimes notes just come to un you write that down. by the time i am with the computer i am trying to integrate that into a draft, into a draft, i tend to write chronologically, though i am interested in -- in a biography on move back and forth but for the most part when i draft it the first time it is chronological, trying to figure things out like okay, here are the high school years and here are the howard university years,

how do we break up, it is four years or a lot of different things happen. i knew something like lawrence county would be a set piece in lawrence county and the merit of march would be its own set piece. that is what i do. i am as the evidence and i am trying to draft because a lot of writing is rewriting. so a first draft is just that and there will be multiple multiple drafts. this book was written and rewritten and rewritten many times over and not just 5 or 10 but many times. ♪

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♪ ♪ >> host: you listed abu jamal as the most influential a favorite books and authors. >> guest: when a losing graduate student, life and death row, was

very impact will, a former black panther, he had been a reporter, he was convicted and his essays on life-and-death row and race, revolution, his time as the black panther was very important in terms of looking -- one caller asked what happened to be strong activists, strong men or women, one of them, he had been one of them. he was minister information with the black panther party chapter in philadelphia. he has a great line of remembering, stokely carmichael, long and lean, very influential in terms of seeing how people who are struggling could remain resilient even in the face of these huge challenges. >> host: 202 is the area code if

you want to take part in the last half of our program with peniel joseph, 585-388 zero. stenson full-time son, 3881. further out west, we will put up our social me address as we go so you can participate in that way as well. fran in toledo, ohio. you are on booktv on c-span2. >> i was wondering. i have yet to meet one person to convince me your she honestly believes any race is superior or inferior to any other and are was wondering if you consider the possibility that it is a form of deliberate and calculated cruelty, not a form of ignorance and so-called progress consists of nothing more than making grudging concessions to a simple and obvious justice in order to keep the peace and bears the relation to actual good well --

>> host: could you just rephrase that really quickly? so we all understand what you are talking about? >> caller: i wonder if race is really a form of ignorance or just a form of cruelty. >> guest: when we think about racism, the bigger aspect of racism is really systems of domination. racism is a system that identifies different bodies, they could be black, they could be white, latino, native american, and institutions in that society treat those folks who have been marked differently, the criminal-justice system treat them differently, the military does, the school system, maybe public accommodations treat them differently, maybe the courts do as well. when we think about racism we

personalize and sometimes conflate prejudice, personal prejudice with racism. people may not be personally prejudiced as to say i have black friends, latino friends, asian american friends. when we think about racism the best way to understand it, stokely carmichael and charles hamilton, their classic book black power they coined the term institutional racism. that is a much better understanding, these institutions that profitably racism through discriminatory practices and discriminatory outcomes like racially disparate outcomes. when we think about racism, certainly we can talk about ignorant and personal prejudice but racism is something that is very much institutionalized and connected to these different political and social cultural projects that nations undertake and for the united states, our

first project was racial slavery. that was the first one. the aftermath of racial slavery we continue institutional racism in different ways but also have huge struggles and some progress in terms of trying to of the many institutional racism. >> host: peniel joseph, in "stokely: a life" do we learn about the personal stokely carmichael? >> guest: i think you do. you learn that stokely carmichael was hugely charismatic, he was somebody who had friends across racial lines. he was a leader among leaders, he was somebody planted tended to gravitate to as a friend and women tended to gravitate to him as well. he was somebody who could get along with many, many different points of view even as he was confident enough to maintain and articulate his own. he had friends who he disagreed

with, he was a very funny person, he was quick witted and cracking jokes all the time. you also live philosophy majors at howard university, him and activists like bob moses, one of the key activists of snick, talk and discuss different philosophical series. a very interesting person. and personally, one of the things that occurs as he becomes more famous is his personal life becomes more public. he engages in a very sort of personal relationship with court should and marriage because he becomes sort of in a way of the property of the african-american community, people want to know what is going on in his life but over time, over the decades there is the tolls that

traveling fbi surveillance, organizing in africa and the united states takes on his life, two marriages, two they forces, he has a peripatetic life where he is traveling all the time. there is the toll -- carmichael is very sensitive. he is impacted by the movement. talk about post-traumatic stress disorder, people are part of the black power movement and the social movements of the 60s. they had reaction. there are times he had breakdowns after different activists are killed including white activists. he is very close to jonathan daniels in alabama who is killed. cme and junior who was killed and murdered. and that was the death of a friend, an older brother to him

and was a fatherly figure to him. these deaths impacted so it is a flesh and blood 3-dimensional human being but there's a price that is paid when you are this activist, this national international figure. >> host: did he die a wealthy man? >> guest: he didn't. he was like dr. king. dr. king made it a point of pride to leave no wealth behind. that put his family in a bind but made it a point of pride. two suits in his closet, very little money life-insurance and the family struggles four times, the king family in the aftermath. trying to gather wealth in the 1960s, he certainly could have. in the 60s and 70s, any money in speaking agents made from books

go back to his organization, political activists. he did not die a wealthy man. his medical expenses were taken care of by basically the black community globally. a network of different friends, activists, organizations who did fund-raising to take care of medical expenses when he was battling cancer 96-97-98. >> host: were you able to talk to a lot of sources who were close to stokely carmichael? >> guest: i talked to activists who were worked with him especially in non-violent coordinating committee. some were going to high school with him, some people had generally been impacted by him. some were university classmates as well. i was able to talk to a range of figures who knew him, had worked with him, loved him and were interested in remembering his impact on their lives.

>> host: what is their reaction to this book? >> guest: for the most part overwhelmingly it has been so far it has been positive. when you write about a figure who is so close to different people, people felt he was brother, a cousin, a family member, they can have their own viewpoint disappointments over what you write or criticism or how you are framing this figure who they knew but the book certainly is critical but extraordinarily respectful of his life and his legacy. >> host: lawrence from syracuse, new york. >> caller: greetings. thank you for c-span. like one of your callers said earlier there is no opportunity for black folks in america still

to see themselves on television. i look forward to the professor's book. i am one of those people who left stokely carmichael in the 90s. i was a local leader in harlem. and always from ireland, a beautiful sold, ordinary, had outrage about the society we live in. leaving people out. we still have a society that is upwards in that way. one thing i would like you to address is -- i am looking forward to it. i would like to say something, that racism is not about the

skin color. it is all about economics. white people fighting for black people -- if you look at rutger evers, another side of the struggle. he was somebody who they killed because he was talking about let's go back to africa. what was he doing? buying ships and connecting economics of the issue together and the same thing with dr. king and malcolm x. he should become conflicted so the issue here is to start to talk among ourselves in this book, the issue is about economics. >> host: thank you. professor joseph? >> guest: i would say that is true. when we think about these racial

struggles of the 1960s and somebody like stokely carmichael or martin luther king jr. is an economic struggle. initially in carmichael's are he believed economic injustice can be combated through independent autonomous organizing. for example trying to register and get people voting rights in a place like mississippi was so they could be part of the political process and later by 1965 trying to organize lawrence county in a microwave, local community organizing, you make sure black folks in lawrence county had the political position that could impact them economically as well so they wouldn't have to be at the mercy of white plantation owners or a white political establishment. as he continues by 1966-'67 he is talking about the vietnam war and has a critique of

capitalism. he has this anti imperialists critique, the idea that america is an empire and economic and racial subject asian go hand in hand. he is talking about this and dr. king and the poor people's campaign talking about this as well. i do think these movements even if we remember them erroneously as just movements for racial justice they were movements for economic justice. march on washington for jobs and freedom. the economic component is a big part of its end racial justice and economic equality are intimately connected. >> host: the cover of "stokely: a life," where is that picture from? >> guest: april 15th, 1967. that is a picture from the united nations protest and that protest, stokely carmichael gives a great speech, where somebody could say they upstaged dr. king. he speaks before dr. king.

not a falling out but certainly after the meredith march where stokely carmichael unveiled the black power slogan with different stick activists and others. there is a famous repartee between march licking and stokely carmichael where we use you to unleash this because the media was going to be here and dr. king says stokely carmichael, i have been used before. won't be the first time but certain people around dr. king said after the mariners march we don't want king and stokely carmichael sharing the stage again and they don't until april of 1967. what is interesting is they find common ground in opposition to the vietnam war. dr. king does three important anti vietnam speeches in april of 1967. april 4th in riverside, n.y. and

the united nations and new york but the third is ebenezer baptist in atlanta and the end of april and he called stokely carmichael saturday night, he says what are you doing tomorrow morning? stokely carmichael says like a good he then i won't be in church, just working for the people and dr. king says i want you to come tomorrow. he said why? tomorrow i am really going to come out against the vietnam war. there is silence on the line and stokely carmichael says i am going to be there in the front row tomorrow. you look at footage of king's speech, stokely carmichael in april of 1967 is along with one of his best friends, is leading the standing ovation for dr. king's anti-war speech. it is incredible when you think of the coverage of both of these

because by 1967 newspaper reporters and journalists are saying carmichael land king and are working hand in hand together. we don't remember it that way but you are saying these guys are basically one paper calls them the batman and robin of the movement, this anti-war movement. what is interesting is they find common ground in the viet nam struggle and two activists and two men find common ground with a shared love of black culture and black people. two of the key activists of that period who have a political sincerity and appreciation and understanding for poor black people because these are guys in suits and ties, dignitaries but when you are on the meredith march in mississippi, you are in overalls, jeans, it is hot, 95 degrees and if you are not comfortable around poor black

people that is going to show. with these two men it is the exact opposite. they embrace the folks who are ex-convict, the folks who are dartboard, folks who don't speak grammatically correct english, they embrace that side of the black community even as they are two intellectuals themselves. >> host: jenkins suites in to you dr. joseph, condoleezza rice and stokely carmichael were acquaintances? if so why such divergent paths? >> guest: they are acquaintances and this is an example of stokely carmichael, kwame ture, the recall each other very fondly. stokely carmichael meets condoleezza rice when she is 9, 10, years old and he is speaking at stillman college in alabama and her father, john rice, is

one of the deans and invites stokely carmichael to speak and they form a friendship, he formed a friendship with condoleezza rice, calls her his little sister, even as she takes a different path ideologically, intellectually he continues to visit, teaches classes for her father, guest lectures. they continue to be in touch so in a way when you think about stokely carmichael, kwame ture, he can have the ideological differences with you but it was never personal. .. he could still be fond of somebody like condoleezza rice, who he had vehement disagreements with. so very interesting. that's the kind of person he was. you could have huge disagreements but he was definitely understood the human face of personal relationships. >> host: what was stokely carm

-- carm michael's opinion of white involvement in the black movement. >> guest: that changes over time. he goes to a predominantly white high school. bronx science. he tests before this actions. a brilliant student, a popular student, talked to people, the class of 1960, only eight african-americans over 300 graduating students. people knew stokely was brilliant. they knew he would be special. he was very intellectually confident, politically confident. he worked with white students. he had predominantly white friends and jewish friends at bronx science, even though he had african-american friends as well. he marched in pro israeli parches in the 1950s. so by the time the summer project happens and hundreds of white volunteers come into mississippi and some of them stay on, he was comfortable around white people and around

black people. so he never had discomfort around whites. he is aware that white participation in the movement caused certain dangers to black and white activists. somebody like jonathan daniels, who is killed in alabama, is a white -- a religious student, an activist and was murdered. the very fact that you're white and you're trying to help organize black people, really made you a target and made the people you were trying to help organize targets as well. so, over time, he comes to believe that white activists should really work in white communities. they should be trying to do antiracist work and struggle in white communities. but he never advocates any kind of conventional racial separatism, and in the 1960s, once sncc -- there's a vote made while he is chairman, to not exactly key whites out of sncc

but it becomes that. no white project or field workers can directly affiliate themselves with sncc. he is accused of kicking white people out. stokely doesn't agree with that decision. he doesn't go for that decision. so, what's interesting is that his relationship with whites is a complex relationship but he always felt comfortable with white activists. he has a critique of white liberalism, and probably one of his best distillations is the berkeley speech in october of 1966 where he says the problem and why we can't have genuine democracy in the united states is because of white supremacy, and he is telling students at berkeley you have to understand what white and privilege is. the reason why we have to protest and sit in and demonstrate is because of not just racism but white privilege that is infecting the united states from top to bottom and bottom to top.

>> you write in "stokely: a life." he blamed sncc for serving as an unwitting buffer between white society and the black masses as racial interpreters who helped to maintain the illusion that american democracy required little more than reform. sncc and other civil rights groups underestimated the depth of institutional rate simple, the jagged edges of democracy and the deep-seated hostility of white against even the appearance of blackness. >> guest: there is an underestimation, especially in the '60s, somebody who is willing to call himself out and say, we made mistakes. i made a mistake. there was an undersystems. initially sncc is this band of sisters and brothers in a circle of trust who believe that this kind of reform, once people get what they're trying to do and build genuine small "d"

democracy in the united states, never existed. alabama, mississippi, the whole country, that people would get on board. by '65, '66, that's not the case. they had been in error. that the motion of social political justice was something that was revolutionary. the relation of racial equality, economic equality, something that millions of white americans, not just barry goldwater and george wall los angeles icons of racial segregation and neoconserve tim, were in opposition. but what stokely does, he becomes further radicalized and makes the argument that unless black people in '66 -- he got a great essay in the new york review of books in 18966 and the new republic on january 8, 1966, where he says, look, unless black people can get real access to small d democracy and real control over their own lives,

their whole country and the premise it's founded on is bankrupt. that becomes his argument. so initially he is arguing for black power, not just social, political, economic self-determines but black power as democracy's last chance and best hope. that's going to evolve into black power radical revolutionary antiimperialism, anticapitalism, antiwar, but initially that is what he is saying in speeches and in his writings, and what is interesting is his vision of democracy is a radical vision of democracy. it's poor black people, sharecroppers, people who had no voice, being in charge and being seen as leaders. he says when he is talking to stud terkel, he says a person in mississippi is as important as martin luther king, maybe more so because king had all pedigree, the way he speaks,

like the white community want. and if we're truly going to be this society that we envision ourselves to be, she has to be the person that we embrace. not only accept. that we embrace. it's his vision of democracy in that case is remarkable, and certainly it's going to be transformed after a while, going to receipt and going to be talking about revolution. >> we just showed a picture of fanny lou hamer as well. there is going to be a biography written about her? >> guest: certainly. there's -- the -- >> host: what's your next subject, your next topic for book? >> guest: the next subject is malcolm and martin, and i'm very much interested in both their relationship, how that relationship has been

misconstrued. what they mean to race, american politics, the african-american freedom struggle. so, yeah, that's the next subject. >> host: eric is calling from des moines, you're on with professor peniel joseph. >> caller: thank you for taking my call. two quick questions or comments. my first question is for mr. joseph. in your opinion, why do you think we refer to malcolm x as opposed to el shabazz and recognition in the middle east or whatever and kwame as opposed to stokely as opposed to kwame. that's my first question. then my next one is, being a professor, i'm in my mid-40s, and as early as 20 i started becoming what i consider conscious and started talking

about -- when you start talking about the malcolm x, the unsung heroes, very uncomfortable to people, white america, black america, and the professor, how do you handle that? i want to one day become an historian and go on to teach and inspire. how do you handle that with so many people in the beginning of the program. >> host: thank you. thank you, eric. >> guest: the first question i refer to stokely has both stokely car carmichael and qualm temperature uree, kwame turyy and stokely carmichael before. for malcolm x, el shabazz, the name that he took after his hodge to the middle east in

1964. but certainly the iconography has been around malcolm x and el shabazz and both of them are credible. in terms of stokely carmichael and kwame, both are -- can be used. in terms of the whole notion of comfortablity, i say, yes, mainstreamers talking about black radicalism, talking about black power, makes people uncomfortable. i think what i have done as an historian, as a professor, and just as a teacher, really placed these figures in their larger historical context and why they are not only a part of american and world history, they're central to that story. so, to me, i think that relieves the discomfort when you can empirically show you're not just talking about these folks to talk about them. but you're saying that, look,

they're connected to this larger story and they're stroll central to -- central to themes of citizenship, democracy. >> host: patricia e-mails: can you talk about the significance of stokely's famous comment that, quote, the position of women in the movement is prone and how that complicated the lives of activists? >> guest: that's a great question, and it's really -- what is interesting is that is a quote that is really become decontextualized, taken on a life of its own after the fact. it's a quote from 1964, in mississippi in november, and there was a sncc conferencin' 1964, and mary king and casey hayden were two white sncc activists that, wrote what was then an anonymous possession

paper about the position of women in sncc, and it's come to be embraced as one of the founding texts of second wave of feminism, a text that examines gender blinders, inequality, even as the movement was talking about racial equality. and in the aftermath of one of those discussions, stokely carmichael. mary king there is, different activists, they leave the conference site, the building they're in, and they go to the -- by the water in miss and is good -- go on a pier and they're having discussions and joking around and at one point stokely, who is very famous for sort of at times doing little standup routines, imitating people, being really -- he says that the position of women in sncc, yeah, almost rhetorically, and he says the position is prone.

everybody breaks out laughing. it is a joke. everybody who is there knows it's a joke. in the aftermath, that quote has been taken out of context, almost as if one -- this is how carmichael felt about gender and women's equality, and, two, a larger sort of indictment on the '60s and black power activists or just the patriarchy of the '6s so. there was -- patriarchie and sexism and but carmichael is remembered by female activists in sncc has one of the most responsive and dedicated men in terms of these issues. so, the way in which i look at that quote is, i asked the sources, women who worked with him, how was stokely in the movement? did he promote women's equality?

was he somebody who believed in gender equity? and the answers you inevitably get is, yes, this is somebody who, whatever blinders and whatever sexism was happening at the time, and doesn't mean he is immune to that but he is not just raging sexist or this raging misogynist, so that quote has taken on a life of its own, and he says. so i document he says, a little quote going around, stokely carmichael's -- that's something that has been used by different groups who had the critique of the revolutionary policies of the '60s, sometimes used by different feminists as well, both whites and others, who are saying, well, this is what this guy represents and, it's really not. but being such a public figure he took it in stride and was supportive and almost regretful because it became a long-lasting

smear. the way people recall its not as the joke its. it's sexist joke but it's a joke among friends who are 20 years old at the time. >> heidi in maine, you're on book tv on c-span2. >> caller: thank you so much. dr. joseph, i really appreciate your commitments and scholarship on all of these issues. i am also a westy. i was blessed to meet him back -- and blessed after writing my paper about him and deep democracy to be able to sit in on a few of his classes at harvard. at his invitation, and got to sing my song, mandela, this is my mandate, in his class. i wanted to let you know that one of the reasons why i so care about him is because he really

emphasizes the concept of caring for not just, like you said, about other people and the movement. he also really cares about the economics and also the environment. i think that gets forgotten in a lot of this equal rights and stuff. but i really -- i'm hearing my voice going on, on the inform the other room -- >> host: heidi, do you have a question that you would like -- please ask it. >> caller: yes. i would like to know what he thinks about how obama has not really heeded the message that cornel west has about equality and meeting with him. it seems like tavis and west have gone out of their way to hold things in d.c., but that they don't get recognized --

>> host: all right. we got the point. peniel joseph. >> guest: i think it's being. i think somebody like obama -- obviously he has an emerge icon otography in the black community. some kwame would be very critical of obama and his policies, and when you think about cornel west and the critique they've had wednesday president obama, for the first anytime american history we actually had an african-american president. that's presented a conundrum for african-american civil rights leadership, because this president is so beloved by the african-american community, that he can bypass the usual channels of political -- and criticizing the president overtly because he faces such staunch opposition from right-wingers, whether it's in congress or just the larger public, has really made african-americans angry.

so i think that it's a difficult threshold but it certainly is important to remember that as iconic as obama is, he is president of the united states and is not an activist. sometimes people mistakenly think that barack obama is martin luther king, jr., and i tell students when you look at a picture of king and lyndon johnson, king and kennedy, when you think of obama, you have to think about president kennedy and president johnson, not as being civil rights leader dr. king. >> from -- >> host: from our facebook page, lydia says the black panther party is not understood enough. how can the party and aspects of black power be aflied 21st 21st century struggle. >> guest: the party is not understood. the black panther party is a revolutionary party, advocating for radical self-determination. they're talking about having a

socialism -- a socialist society, free land, bread, peace, justice, full employment, and we usually think about them in terms of violence and self-defense and armed struggle, which is one facet but there were so many other multiple facets. the greatest thing that the panthers provide us is with a real context of looking at the united states in a critical way. so the panthers, they quote from the declaration of independence in their ten-point program, yet at the same time they have a real critique of capitalism and democracy. so the panthers are very, very interesting group as a black group that is inspired by what goes on around in lawrence county, alabama, in oak lean, and spreads across the country and throughout the world, going to have international chapters, chapter in algeria, and have this burgeoning iconography.

there are talking about state-sanctioned violence, poverty. the criminalization of african-american men and women, even in the 1960s. so the panthers were on the cutting edge of so much of the political activism that we see in the 21 not century, including struggles against mass incarceration, prison industrial complex, open season on young black men. panthers were talking about nat 1966, 1967. oakland, canada, had horrendous record of police brutality and racial profiling against young black men and women, even in the 1950s so a lot of the problems have metastasized, a prison state of over two million people. maybe 800,000, a million black people in that prison state disproportionate of their population of 40 million. so it's very interesting that the panthers speaking truth to power.

very critical of the united states government. very, very critical of racism, vietnam war, poverty. the best thing we can get from the panthers is the way they very much analytically looked at the situation, even though we remember the fireworks, confrontations with police, the leather jackets, theber -- the berets, off the pigs, but why they really did was have this analysis of what was going on in terms of poverty, in terms of police brutality, in terms of the way in the u.s. nation state is not only a gap between democratic rhetoric and reality but really a chasm and attracted a community. >> host: would you you consider writing a biography of huey newton? >> guest: a great question. i think huey is a fascinating

figure. certainly i think we need a biography of huey nut ton, -- newton but my folk tuesday -- focus is on hi next book, malcolm and martin. but certainly he is an important figure that needs to be written about. >> host: is that the name of the book, malcolm and martin? >> guest: no. the name of the book is the sword and the shield. political worlds of malcolm x. >> host: when will we see that? >> guest: i have no idea at this point. >> host: willy from portland, oregon go ahead. >> caller: professor, i appreciate and i think most of your listeners appreciate what it takes and the flavors of black history that you have brought to our understanding. my question has to do with what part did -- [inaudible]

-- it's the 50th anniversary -- thank you. i appreciate you comments. >> guest: thank you. leon, activist in philadelphia, opportunities, industrial, corporation -- i'm losing the full name of the group -- really about self-help. more liberal or moderate self-help, but certainly self-determination, very, very important on local activists during the civil rights struggle, trying to provide economic opportunities. in away when you think about leon sullivan, people who are more pragmatic insiders, did agitate. they wanted -- it was interesting, people like leon sullivan, they were very important part of the movement. if you needed radicals, you needed revolutionaries but you also need moderates moderates ad pragmatists as well who can

shape the demand and the bread and butter issues, where even as you have people calling for this complete revolution that people want, in the meantime, how do you get from point a to b before you get to z. and sometimes there was huge disputes over that. people say the person getting from a to b is preventing us from getting to z and that's the era. leon sullivan is very northern terms of economic opportunities on the ground for blacks and urban america during the '60s. >> host: stokely, a life. dedicated for astride. who is astrid. >> guest: my fiancee. i metmer in boston. >> host: what does she do. >> guest: she is in business, vice president of sales at a company. at a consulting company. >> host: next call for peniel joseph comes from seku in mad

tisson heights, virginia. >> caller: good afternoon, sire. er doing great job and i have two brief questions. one is, results of the civil rights movement cause kwame to adopt and -- ideology, and the next is, would he have questioned the cia in reference to -- [inaudible] thank you, sir. >> guest: the factors that led to his adoption of -- is really what he experienced on the ground in the civil rights actives -- as a civil rights activist and a black power organizer and mobilizer, stokely carmichael becomes kwame ture out of a process of experience. so, by the time he visits the creek in 1967, september of 1967, he has visited cuba, visited algeria, on the front

lines, speaking to different revolutionaries and is going to go to paris, going to tanzania, and he comes to feel that revolutionary pan-africanism as spelled out by kwame, one of the definitive pan-african ises of his generation, and ture is one of the most for mettable pan-africaist leaders of the post war period and comes to believe that combining their political thought and action is really what is going to be necessary to lead an african restoration and a worldwide political struggle to defeat capitalism, defeat imperialism and produce freedom and liberation for oprocessed people all over the world. the second question -- >> host: cia and the death of hugo chavez.

>> guest: i think kwame -- we saw in the clip -- certainly felt harassed and felt under pressure by the cia. so undoubtedly he would connect what happened to chavez to chi chi. absolutely -- to the cia. absolutely. >> host: do you support or agree with kwame, stokely carmichael's view 0 about the fbi following hem throughout his life and causing his cancer, as he told us during that interview? >> guest: i think in terms of following him and harassing him throughout his life, absolutely in terms of causing cancer, i haven't seen evidence that shows that. but in terms of following him, harassing him, really -- again, undercutting the way in which you enjoy your live, because you're looking over your shoulder. it's important for our viewers to understand that having people

surveil you is hugely uncomfortable. it's hugely upsetting. it's hugely stressful. and to have people surveilling you from the time you're 25 years old, really until your death, transforms you, and really has a debilitating impact on you. i think he was very, very resilient in the face of that and was strong and not defeated or broken by that, but certainly it's not something any of us would want for our lives. right? because the president of the united states, yes, secret service is trying to protect you. it's different if the people are trying to surveil you to see that you don't do anything that me a constitute in your arrest or something negative against you. >> host: john of laurel new york e-mails: it's my opinion that lyndon johnson felt betrayed by the civil rights leaders who didn't support the war in vietnam. what is your opinion? >> guest: i think johnson feels betrayed in this sense. lbj feels he has done so much

for the entire country, and he has done so much for the civil rights movement and racial equality, that he says, look, he wants martin luther king, jr. on board because he is thinking to himself, the way he is analyzing this, i was onboard for voting rights, i was onboard for civil rights. this cost me commit political capital but i was on board. johnson was what some people call a horse trader, quid pro quo. so from his perspective, people like king -- not stokely charm michael but people like king are ungrateful by not towing the line on this simple agree with that. >> host: patricia, pine bluff, arkansas, you're on with peniel joseph. >> caller: hi. yes, my question is, what is our future as a people? i hear about all the activism,

all the intellectuals, people who are knowledgeable in the black struggle, and -- but it seems like we're fighting for the same thingses we fought for in slavery. ... >> host: patricia, i think we got the point. thank you. dr. joseph? >> guest: yeah.

i think when we think about the african-american community in the 21st century, i think it's important to remember that sometimes people say, you know, where do we go from here, and dr. king wrote a book, he asked our community in 1967. african-americans are dis proportionately overrepresented in negative indicators, unemployment, housing loan, mortgage crisis, health care crises, social disrotation, homelessness -- dislocation, homelessness, all these things. we have to understand why is that happening, mass uncars ration, public schools -- incarceration, public schools. we have two different perspectives. one school of thought says because of the civil rights victories of the '60s, this is all about individual apathy. it's all about pulling yourself up by your boot straps. the reason why brach people are in -- black people are in the position they're in is themselves and their own lack of work ethic. look at barack obama, he became president, you should do for

yourself. the counter view is what we've seen since the 1960s is that opportunity has actually not increased for most african-americans, it's actually decreased. one great example would be the politics of hurricane katrina where we saw the eighth ward in new orleans, we saw african-americans who were living in abject poverty and in a way they could have been living in the 1960s, 1950s, it could have been the 1890s or the 1880s, right? so what we, we don't admit to ourselves in the united states is that we have what people call ghettos, i'll call poor black communities because real people live there. we have black communities that are living in entrenched poverty, right? and they've live inside that poverty generationally. and so from that perspective you have a better understanding not why so many people are poor, but what's remarkable is the few who have actually escaped. so when we think about where we are today, i think too often we

focus on those who have escaped really metaphorically the plantation, those who have escaped that plantation and who are movie stars, who are elites, who are wealthy power brokers, right? but then for those who are left behind with the rest of the country asks how come you're still on that plantation, right? and that's a terrible question. the real question is how come there's a plantation at all. >> host: donald palmer from bumming ham, alabama, tweets into you, prover joseph, why is there so much fear in america regarding the issue of race? >> guest: well, i think that the fear is based on a rack of honesty finish a lack of honesty and based on a lack of coming to terms with our own history. i eluded to 12 years a slave earlier, and i've written different essays for the root on 12 years. i think the reason why that film so important is because it actually shook the system, it shook the united states back

into talking about slavery. we hadn't had that conversation about slavery since january of 1977 when roots appeared and was shattering ratings records. what's interesting about race is that race becomes a very, very problematic subject because our creed is that we are a color blind society. our creed is about racial, ethnic equality. what race points out is really the disjuncture. it points out gaps. it points out inec butties, inconsistencies. in the 19 of 0s the people used to say the contradiction, people would start organizing once they mastered the contradictions between the rhetoric of democracy and the reality. so race becomes sort of the crucible, the way in which welcome really understand and see those con -- understand and see those contradictions. >> host: dan in syracuse, new york, please go ahead with your

question or comment. >> caller: yes. first of all, i was a student at tuts about 15 years ago, and my two questions have to do with your position in academia. the first one's kind of small bore, i was wondering if you engage with cantive publication, the primary source, on campus. and my second question is in your position of power, essentially, in an elite institution do you encourage your black students that come to you for guidance and mentorship, do you encourage them to pursue other avenues in academia? because i came from a high school where, a very diverse city high school, and i was used to seeing black people in power and have influence, but when i got to tufts, i noticed that gerald dill -- who i believe was your predecessor -- was pretty much the only black member of the faculty. there wasn't a black math

professor, physics professor, english professor. do you try and encourage students to pursue fields other than black history? that's my question, thank you. >> guest: yeah. the first, no, i haven't had interaction with primary source. but the second is, yeah, i do encourage. i think, one, tufts has really transformed itself since the time that you were this. i direct a center as well as being a professor. i have colleagues who are also african-american or biracial, mixed racement we have -- race. we have more black professors now at tufts than i think this the history of of entire institution. so, one, that has definitely changed and tufts has transformed itself and i think is poised to be on the leading edge of talking about issues of race and issues of equity and democracy in this country.

in terms of my students, i always encourage them to pursue whatever it is they want to pursue. i don't discourage them from pursuing black history, but i encourage them to think about dreaming outside what they might have come -- outside the confines of their background, right? really saying, really encouraging them to, you know, when i came to stony brook, i was 17 years old, and one of my mentors there was a professor at boden now and was at stony brook was very, very encouraging to me in terms of being a professor. one of the professors who was there, these folks all gave encouragement. so i encourage my african-american students to really believe that they can be the best person in their field so that not only can they be somebody who thinks of a profession as a way to make a living, but really as a vocation and that they can make their mark. but since we talk about, we talk about active citizenship, we

talk about social justice at tufts. i encourage them to whatever they want to get into, economics, health care, science, international relations, history, african-american studies that to think of themselves as somebody who's capable of being the absolute best at whatever it is they endeavor to do. >> host: what was your rick with manny mare bell? >> guest: manny was a deep mentor to me. he was somebody who inspired me. he taught at columbia university for a number of years. he authored about 20 books. i first encountered manny when i was 20 years, 20 years old at stony brook university, and this is before the internet age, this was before texting and e-mailing. hugely kind and considerate to me. we kept in touch through letters, and when my first book came out, he, you know, promoted it, blurbed it, you know, was

very, very encouraging to me as a young scholar. so certainly somebody who has meant a lot to me personally and professionally. >> host: and, of course, he had the posthumous malcolm x book out last year, i believe it was. >> 2011. he won the pulitzer prize in 2012. >> host: verna smith tweets in to you, professor, could you talk about comedian dick gregory's role back then when we think of black politics and civil rights? >> guest: dick gregory is a real hero, somebody who marched with dr. king. he was on the front lines. he's somebody who used his celebrity to further political activism. you know, there are others, giants like harry belafonte, of course, but dick gregory really was somebody who was articulate, funny but was willing to speak truth to power even no matter what cost it had on his own, on his own professional career. and somebody who knew different

activists, knew stokely carmichael, knew people in the student nonviolent coordinating committee on the ground, raised money, gave money. so really one of the true rock solid, you know, heroes of that period. >> host: a lot of our e-mails and tweets and facebook comments have, are about the black panther movement. i'm sorry, the black power and the black panther movement. >> guest: yeah. >> host: this is dane sherman's tweet to you: can you speak about the significance of boeing georgia loose saw, louisiana, and the rise of black power movement? >> guest: yeah. that's where the deacons for defense and justice are coming out of or one of places that they're coming out of, and the deacons of defense and justice really were activists who were connected to the civil rights movement providing armed self-defense or armed protection for civil rights activists in mississippi, louisiana and other parts of the country. so boeing loose saw, louisiana,

is very, very important in terms of civil rights and black power, in terms of the southern side of both of these movements but also this issue of armed protection. these folks were arming themselves not to try to sort of violently confront racial terrorists, but to make sure that civil rights workers were not confronted with violence. >> host: peniel joseph, last month on this program we had women's history professor bonnie morris, and in one of her books she has a quiz about women's history, and so we played that a little bit during the program. when it comes to textbooks, do you think we're learning enough about black history? >> guest: well, i'd say, no, we're not learning enough about black history. i think that there are some textbooks, you know, evelyn brooks hikingen both that many and john hope franklin from slavery is freedom can has been done by professor higgingbotham,

mel painter has a brilliant textbook that looks at african-american visual arts, so there are some. but in terms of our high school, what my students who come in as freshmen understand about black history, they've gotten virtually no black history at predominantly sub you are wan white -- suburban white high schools. so even though the '60s presented us with a real challenge and black studies became institutionalized at predominantly white universities, that didn't really happen at the high school level all across the united states. i think right now the city of philadelphia does require all high school students to have an african-american studies curriculum, and i know one of my friends from grad school, dr. greg carr can who's at howard university, he was one of the people e behind that curriculum. and so philadelphia sort of stands out in a positive way. but what we need in all urban cities, but suburbs, midwest, out west into the west coast would be units on african-american history because

it's really american history, right? it's part of our, it's part of our national story and our national saga, and our students need to know it really to make their way in the world. like it's actually vital in this globalizing society to understand about african-american history and its connection to the wider world. >> host: daniel in boston, good afternoon. >> caller: gentlemen, thank you for your time. mr. joseph, for a young man with indigenous roots such as yourself to be teaching and actively speaking about racial history is a powerful model for our youth, so thank you very much for that. >> guest: oh, thank you. >> caller: one of the interesting as pecks of the plaque panner the -- aspects of the black panther party for me was the free breakfast program for school children who, from what i understand, hoover was very upset about and, actually, tried to end. and the other part of my question is, speaking to some of my peers about topics of racial history, anger seems to be one

of the most prevalent emotions that come up at least for our youth, you know, who are young. so what advice can you give to young men who come into knowledge of things such as the 1999 civil trial when the united states was found to be guilty of conspiring in the assassination of dr. martin luther king? these bring such emotions for our youth, and i was just wondering what advice you could have and thank you for your time. >> guest: okay. well, in terms of the youth, i think that one of the most powerful things that we can use and, you know, malcolm x talks about this in his autobiography was his love of reading, his love of learning. i think part of the problem is finding out the story. and i think that i was very, very fortunate to live in the household i lived in and i grew up in and the minnesota to haves i -- mentors i had to sort of find out the storiment but then also once with you find out the story, what do you do? and anger certainly i understand anger, but you should use that

knowledge as fuel to become whether it's an organizer and an activist, whether it's a teacher, whether it's a doctor, whether it's some kind of lead e right? so i think that anger is best redirected into something that is hugely, hugely positive for the entire african-american community including things like volunteering and mentoring young people. because our young people need to see -- it's more than role models, but examples of a different kind of success. and i think one of the reasons why i was inspired to ride about stokely carmichael is that his life provided a different road to success. it didn'tened up as a u.s. presidency, a billionaire leader of a hedge fund, it ended up with social activism, political activism each in the face of all -- even in the face of all these challenges. so i think what our young people need to know is really the

history and how that history informs their struggle. there's so many different black women and men who they stand on their shoulders, and the more they know about that history, i think the more it arms them to deal with the challenges that they may face. >> host: deborah gill posted on our facebook page, you mentioned two of my sorority sisters, darlene clark hines and paula giddings as some of your favorite authors. are there other delta sigma theta activists such as shirley chism, winnie mandela that you favor? >> guest: well, you know, i mentioned those as my favorites. i didn't realize that they were deltas, i think that's great. certainly shirley chism is an important activist, a congresswoman out of brooklyn unbought and unbossed. certainly winnie mandela, as well, is a very, very important activist. i don't know if they're deltas, but there's many, many, you know, women authors, and i think i might have listed them, rhonda

williams who teaches as candidate western university has done terrific work on black women in ballot hour and public housing. there's just so many different authors who have hugely influenced me, barbara answerby's book on ella baker, jean three yo harris' book, there's just too many to count, and i don't know if those folks belong to sororities or fraternities, but i think i've been very, very lucky in terms of who i've had availability in terms of for influence. >> host: and ms. gill goes on to say would you consider writing about africana women leaders? >> guest: oh, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. i mean, you go -- each project makes you delve and go into a different one. so, yeah, absolutely. and i think within these projects i actually have, but in terms of to have just a study of that, yeah, absolutely. >> host: all right. we have answered this twice, but a lot of people are asking what are you working on next?

>> guest: okay. the next book is "the sword and the shield," and it's the political worlds of malcolm x and martin luther king jr., so it's really a dual political biography -- >> host: where they intersect or compare and contrast? >> guest: it's both. it's really both, you know? i think that dr. king and malcolm x are two revolutionaries, and in surgeon ways we've just been focused on contrast and not convergence and what their legacies really mean in the 21st century. >> host: archie in new york, good afternoon to you. >> caller: yes, good afternoon. i'd just like to say thank you very much to c-span for your excellent program and also thank professor joseph for his diligence. the question that i have is i'd like to know what influenced dr. cannon and dr. clark may have had on stokely carmichael, and thank you for taking the question.

>> guest: yeah. i think that they did have an influence. i think stokely, kwame torre read very widely, he read, you know, these books about africa and black history and black nationalism by these insurgent people's historians like dr. clark. he was influenced bihar hem street speakers, so he didn't just read duboise, you know? those figures like chancellor williams, those figures who provide a different kind of history. dr. ivan certima. i think the influence would be there, and when you think about stokely carmichael during his black power period, he's really drilling down into african-american history and also african history, right in in -- right? saying that you have to understand the african past to understand where we're at today. so i think the influence, his

influence intellectually was, there's a big depth and breadth to that experience, and they're inclusive, definitely. >> host: lisa tweets in to you, professor joseph: history is valuable and necessary, but how do you make stokely or carmichael relevant to a 22-year-old from west tennessee or urban kentucky? >> guest: well, i think by talking about, you know, what this person did and how his activism changed the united states of america, helped change africa, helped change the world in terms of being this passionate leader and this advocate and activist for social and political justice. and also how young he was. the person who's 22, i would tell them, look, by the time he was 22 years old, stokely carmichael not only was graduating from howard university, he was leading an entire project, one of the leaders along with bob moses and ores in the mississippi -- others in the mississippi delta for voting rights at 22 years old. i'd say part of the example is

to show how ambitious young people who took on trying to change the world. no money, no pedigrees, right? and they were the metaphorical davids to the united states' goliath, can they were trying to transform the world. they believed in human rights, they believed in social justice, they believed that poor people should be fed. some of this is just basic, and it seems common sense. they believed that people who were sick should have health care. and even when the united states government didn't believe in those things, these people sacrificed their lives to achieve a measure of that. and i'd say to the 22-year-old, you should try to do the same thing. you should try to be as ambitious. that's the model and the standard that they set. and it's not just stokely. stokely has thousands of come compatriots. he's got thousands, young who were then young women and men, black, white, latino, everything in between who did the same thing, you know? we look and examine his life because of its outside

significance, but there were so many people who did the same thing. so the 22-year-old should be excited that somebody did that at that young age, and i think they should be, find him eminently relace bl in that seasons. >> host: trey is calling from fresno, california. you're on with peniel joseph on booktv. >> caller: thank you. i want to say that what you guys is doing is extremely powerful. best way i can illustrate that power is appropriately saying the word power here is that i'm 20 years old, born in 993, and i'm from that metaphorical plantation that you alluded to earlier, and thank you for doing that because there are things in this world that are worse than slavery now, and the things that are worse than slavery days than they are now. but my question revolves around education. and the question is, i've heard how passionate you are about youth, and i've heard your, the message about accountability. and i want to commit the critical role of those freedom

schools and how important the ella bakers and the stokely carmichaels and the dr. kings knew that they were and exactly what they were which was these organized groups coming to those plantations that you alerted to. because all the true seasons of the word poverty means that we -- meaning that we can't get to you guys, it's not easy to get to you guys. and you guys came to us, and they didn't expect us to do a system that is the education system today, that is -- it's not or more us. it's not going to work. you expect us to get through that before we are able to use our creativity which a lot of us are aching to do, you know? but speaking from the area of the world that i'm calling you from right now, it's very much like a plantation here. >> host: trey -- >> caller: very hard to get out. >> host: tell us about yourself. >> caller: i'm born homeless in

1993. there's a lot of reasons for me not to be here right now, and that's why right now it's a very powerful moment just because there's no separation between me being able to speak to a stokely carmichael. there's no separation in me being able to speak to a dr. king, an ella baker than the feeling i have right now speaking to you, professor joseph. because as i know them, you know themment those people, those spirits, the message they left behind for us to make our own is just is as powerful as era of the '60s was. >> host: what are you doing today? >> caller: what am i doing to do? i'm going to go into work in a couple of hours at a service job that, you know, that's just, you know -- >> host: are you in school? >> caller: i would like -- >> host: i am in school. i go to fresno city college, and they're all professors like the brilliant mr. joseph there, but they're sprinkled about, peppered about.

it's hard to come across them consistently because of the, you know, the inherent problems in the school system that it's just been the very basic structure of it that streps the good people, the good, beautiful spirits like joseph. it stretches you thin. you exist, but the system because of the foundation of what it's there for, those schools weren't adequate and during sncc's days are the same reason our schools aren't adequate today, and our creative abilities are being suppressed. >> host: all right, trey, we appreciate your calling in. professor joseph. >> guest: yeah with. i think the whole idea of education and sort of reaching out to people where they're at is absolutely important. one of the things i've tried to do as a teacher and as a activist, as a scholar is really reach as wide of an audience as possible and really write in a way that's as accessible as possible so that you can reach people, right? so i do a lot of community work many boston and this -- in boston and in surrounding areas, and i think that one of the things we have to do in terms of

education those of us who are in high or education and have all this relative privilege even though, yes, it can spread ourselves thin, i but really reach as many people as possible. so we can reach somebody like trey. and there's so many brilliant young people like him who are not being given the opportunity. and they are hungry for affirmation beyond the narrow outlines of our contemporary society where we are told we have to get rich, we have to tow a specific line to be famous, and we're not hearing for social political justice unless it's done in a way that the mainstream accepts. so i think it's very important for all of us who have access to really reach out. and i think that in terms of education, you mentioned ella baker, you mentioned these folks. one other person we haven't mentioned today is sept amc

clark, and it's manager that -- she's one of the leading educators born to a haitian mother in 1898 of the whole civil rights period. highlander folk school in tennessee that trained activists, that trained organizers. these are the folks who really helped transform america in a resisting america, right? and that resistance continues, so we should not be surprised at that resistance because it's always been part of, a thread, part of the fabric of our society. >> host: this e-mail is from oakland, california. it's from elvin brown. i'm from oakland, do you think genderfication is changing in communities? >> guest: we've seen that both in washington, d.c. and i go back to d.c. 20 years. new york city from i'm from, harlem, you think about u

street, there were times when i was a young man in graduate school i would walk down u street, and i would never see a white face. and it's completely different now. and, you know, you noted harlem is the same way. i just was at apollo speaking at an mlk event a couple of months ago, and i remember walking through the streets of harlem and never seeing any white people, and now, you know, i see a bunch of white peoplement and the positives of that are economic development and let's try to get racial integration and harmony, but the negatives are -- and this happens in brooklyn, new york, fort green as well which i go back a long way with -- is removing and the forced displacement of poor black people. people who are poor, but it doesn't mean that they're ignorant. people who lack formal education, but it doesn't mean they're uneducated. these are people who are the so so-called salt of the earth types. these are people in beauty shops and barbershops who take care of their children, who go to church, some are atheists, some

are secular or who are really part of this american story. but when it come to gentry gentrification, what it does is lock them out of opportunity, right? so what you want is a gentrified community where you finally, you know, brooklyn brownstones where black, white, latino are mixing side by side but not that we're just displacing poor people who can't afford a brownstone that costs one or two million dollars, or they can't afford a condominium that costs $800,000. so i think gentrification's having a real impact. because urban america is being revitalized at the same time in the '60s we called it negro removal instead of urban renewal. >> host: the first book that peniel joseph wrote came out in 2006, "waiting til the midnight hour." "dark days, bright nights" came out in 2014 and "stokely: a life," brand new, hot off the presses, and it is booktv's

book club selection for the month of march, 2014. booktv.org up there in the top there's a tab that says "book club." just click on that, and you can participate in our discussion throughout the month. peniel joseph, thanks for being on booktv. >> guest: thank you for having me. >> fred seigel says the founders of modern liberalism despise the business class and mainstream american values and culture. this