industrial labor in the late 18th century that would really take hold contributed to anti-slavery movement and indeed there was a proslavery writer in britain by the name of gilbert franklin who claimed that in effect the whole abolition movement largely in the late 18th century was an attempt to divert attention from that terrible exploitation of workers in britain. ..

it was quite a long time ago. what troubles me about 12 years a slave that as you know the free northerner from new york state who was kidnapped and taken for 12 years he argues that the cruelty is mainly the

fault of the system, that you are bound to have people who will exploit civil -- slaves terribly if you have a system like this. he is arguing the system is very uneconomical and if you take solomon northrop's views on free labor versus slave labor, he will not be able to explain why slavery in the south was so immensely productive even though they were using so much to drive the slaves on and on. that raises an interesting question. >> the other part of your question was about zionism. >> zionism of blacks and jewish.

>> were you thinking of that? >> there is a new article in the israeli left-wing magazine which draws a distinct parallel between the treatment of palestinians today and the israelis and black slavery in the world. the author again and again draws a complete parallel and it meds there are few circumstances between the treatment of palestinians and the treatment of the black slaves. it doesn't stand up as all that a convincing case.

but then we had all kinds of efforts to compare human trafficking of various sorts and other kinds of oppression today with racial slavery from the past and i guess that's very controversial. >> professor davis six or seven years ago in london you were the keynote speaker at a conference of historians sponsored by the templeton foundation on the subject, is there meaning in history. >> is there what? >> meaning in history and it was a somewhat controversial subject to some professional historians who ducked the question and they were from penn oxford cambridge and elsewhere and you were the keynote speaker and you deferred

answering a question until the final part of your presentation and you said well i don't know that i can answer that is jen. it's not my day job or something to that effect but i have a hard time explaining how within a short period of 60, 70, 80, 90 years the world pond on its head head -- turned on its head its attitude towards slavery. i can explain it are some -- and in light of your most recent work which you care to amend or extend your remarks? >> i'm afraid i don't remember this at all whatever it was they i said they are. i think my trilogy of attempts to explain as well as i can how there was this revolutionary what i call moral perception so

that from the 1780s when -- well 1777 vermont adopts the constitution outlawing slavery and the gradual emancipation of slaves in pennsylvania and three years later the olmeda mob is founded with london and pennsylvania and so on. in the 1780s you have organizations beginning to rise up and by 1888 even though in 1776 slavery was legal and thriving from canada to argentina and chile in 1888 when brazil finally outlaws slavery

in the space of 100 years we have outslugged slavery throughout the entire hemisphere and i think this is a very remarkable event which i really conclude the book by saying we need not forget that moral progress is possible. ..

how this century that brought into the new world that, that century depended on all kinds events along the way. and i said then. if my friends and i were suddenly stripped of our 20th century conditioning and plummeted back to mis1860, we would take for granted our rural over slaves. and human nature i a many saying in effect is not changed. so a historic achievement like the century that i mentioned really matters and the outlawing of slavery in the new world and represents a crucial landmark of the moral progress that we

should never forget. that is the way that i end the book. [applause] >> you're watching book tv nonfixtion authors and books on c-span 2.

amy chua jed rubenfeld. what is the triple package. where do i get it? >> the triple package refers to three qualities. three elements in combination. only in combination will propel individuals and certain groups to disproportionate success did he finded in a certain way the three element of the triple package are first, a sense of exempttionality and you can get it from a lot of different sources. but a feeling that you are defendant initialed for special thing and the second element is almost seemingly the opposite. that is a dash insecurity. to offset that excepttionality and the feeling that you have not quite done enough yet. you are not good enough yet and the third el is impulse control. or self discipline and the ability persevere and resist temptation this. is the inner play with the

first two qualities that i think is the crux of the book. how does somebody feel insecure and superior. we think that, that is what precisely again rates drive in the feeling like i food ed to show the world. i need to show other people and i need to prove myself. >> then what is the third impulse control contribution. >> that allows to you be able to do thank you know. so you can have all of the drive and the hung longing to rise but aren't trained or if you do not have the ability to kind of hang in there. and to persist. even driven people ten to give up. is there is a precise volume reading of each of that he's. >> you use the word dash a second ago. sense of inferiority. were they equally balanced is there a great way here.

>> the great question here though is that what we do think from our research is if you pylon too much with any one of the elements that produces bad results this. is what we have discussed when they talk about the triple package to bring with it. so yes it seems that you will need a type of balance. but bow boy we have not figured out how to measure their yet. >> it is interesting and an original hypothesis. i this i that it has enormous powers for the group that's happen to be doing well right now. and actually for the individuals you know. you think of people that are very very driven and of course. it is not we have not been able to test it in the lab. so we do not have we do not know how do this exactly. that is the point of the book. we offer this as a new way think success in is a dark side and psychological unpinnings and we have a whole chapter on pathology for having too much of one.

or the. it doesn't work and bad things happen. and even when they are all working together as a engine of achievement that has its own pathology. >> talking about what kinds of success you see coming out of the triple package. >> sure. first of all. just to try to relay a possible misunderstand, we do not define the success as material weather. i mean the definition of success as far as i am concerned is the success achieving goals. whatever they are. we will focus on certain conventional metrix of the success like income. educational achievement and the first six chapters of the book and the reason for that is well. it is a important goal for many people. and second this is the type of thing to measure. we do see however last few chapters that the type of success is narrow. and two we think that the triple package elements actually can assist people in power them to achieve any

type of success. not the purely material type of fact as the individual that's have the qualities will grow up in america they ten to have a kind of not resting and creative destruction relationship. between their culture and american culture. such the second generation and immigrant communities will start very tip i canly he to look back at their parents and grandparents generations and saying you know what? we do not want to do success the way that we told you to instead they make their own decisions to be a stand up comic. artist or something like that and what we have found is at operationly. at least. the same quality will help them to do that. and achieve a very different kind of goals. >> let's talk about the part of the book that i think has been most coming verseial where people are talking about the most. which is the your identification for groups.

being the embodyment of a triple package. which groups have you identified and how the purple package will manifest itself in their success. >> okay. so this is the snap shot. you know. that is apart of the problem. this is people that are saying. 8 groups are better. of course. if you are looking at the title this is all about the rise and the fall cultural groups. so the groups that are very very driven and successful. they change dramatically over time. there was different groups ten years ago. there different groups ten years from now. we actually tried to be very systematic and we relied on census data and cal greated our own income figures had research assistance with working and were transparent and going down ancestry tables so the sense us will not identify people by religion that is not allowed anymore and we explain which groups that we exclude for

example there is an english americans category. that is like 50 million people in it. we are not sure what it was capturing and also we ex-khalid clueded groups that have the triple package latvian americans and south african americans. and because they were under a 100,000. we did not want to do with at group that 50 people. you know. i thought that we were pretty system atic. went straight down. looked at the groups most strikingly disproportionly successful according to the conventional metrix. so income. and professional attainment. educational attain men. we chose the metrix. they are available it. is very difficult measure success. though in the second shonl on the jews most of the folk suspect on artistic. and different. if i could talk to you for a second the way groups are not identified by religion. so sticking with the groups mormon on and jews are not. so so those we looked at at

the alternative measures and places like the pew foundation and in inresearchers that put together income data. and they you know. we essential dates that do not match up and we try to be system atic and transparent in the case of the mormonons as we have discussed they actually do not have that disproportionly high median household income. they for one thing. they are when you look about households. they are a larger percentage of with 'em that do not work. in double. >> that women are you know. described as housewives. so that is one thing. we chose that group as we described. i this i that it is the most upwardly mobile group in america. that is to be compare. rates. statistics. 30 years ago. you could barely find a mormon on on wall street. you know. we lay out all of the different acts of achievement right now. in business schools. law schools professional schools and this is what

they are. different categories. so they are good. we end up looking at mormon onlys and jews religious groups. nonimmigrant groups. and going down the indian americans and very very high. income levels. lebanese and iranian americans unanother. chinese americans. let's see. oh. then also we will look at nigerian americans. and cuban-americans. and we also he can plainled. they are just extreme outlines for population groups and also very high rates of the upper mobility. and very very strong educational performances. as we say. we could have looked at the japanese americans and could have gone further down the list. you know. but we for space limitations looked at eight groups. >> pick one of the groups. a favorite group. what is your favorite group? >> we can talk about the mormon only? what is, how do we see a trim will pack in action with the mormon onlys in

particular? >> so the starting point of the group was this remarkable fact that many sense and we documented it. there are several groups in terms of income and education achievements. they went through the ones that we focused on. and we identified independently. as rigorously as we could and we started to look at the groups. wondering about come onality. before i get to the more moms why explain the success. hopefully we can talk about the alternative explanations but in a nutshell. if you are looking at asian american. academic success. you are insubstantially struck if you do your homework in research by the third generation abe an americans are not out performing the rest of the count rechlt and second and third. asian americans overall. scored higher on sats than

the rest of the count rechlt and they don't. this disproving the idea that biological. interrupting the whole minority. good discourse and stereotype. showing there is something cultural going on in the groups. families. the thought. that really are an alternative ex-plan ages going on in the cultures. sure enough we found. we did not expect to. startling come onality. >> and we have this chosen narrative here. and borrowed really from the jewish experience. they have their moses and exodus. also inheritance from the america's pure tans this. is an interesting combination of the two had histories. so joseph smith. he thinks that he discovered a new religion and followers believed that they had been send to earth to redeem the christian church and man kind. and more over today they

actually believe that their way of life is morally superior. words used in one of the leading discussions of more monday cult surf the sea of decay. so they have this strong sense of chosenness. superiority complex. and insecurity. fascinating. deeply feel a sense of rejection. a sejs not being looked upon as fully american. they know they have been looked at as a fringe group and from a hundred years ago they were vilified from the practice of polygamy and when announced replying meal. a hundred years ago. for decades they felt on the outside and. you know. fact that they would have to hear mitt romney's sons to be described as creepy, they were so clean cut. that is am example they will talk about another and tell you about that. so they feel. this will be their words that you can see this described in sociology.

>> and history of persecution. >> yeah. that's right much actually hunted down and chased all over the country. so they will tell themselves the whole story of their insecurity. that is both the matter of peril and being looked down upon. so they will say words like. we feel a chip on the shoulder we have to prf ourselves show the rest of the country that we can succeed as americans and they seem to be motivated. by that combination of this exempttionality and living in the society where they have this outside persecuted relationship. and finally. the impulse control. though is a fascinating thing it. will strike you in the face. they practice. practice practice habits of impulse control that are very different. they are well-known. they smoke. they do not drink. they do not drink caffeine or soda. they start to do this with kids. and this turned out to be relevant to our findings. they do not just start this when you know.

you are an adult but habits. with kids from preschool and they give moral piggy banks and whatever they have to put 0% away. start on practices of having to sit still. and kids do not smoke as much. or premarital sex. and all three of the elements. in term of income or success. what is the outcome. that you can see. and the upper mobilety. certain kinlz of data in the case. just so striking about it.

you know. i worked on wall street. i remember very well this. is confirmed by so many other account too. it was difficult to fine a mormon on on wall story. they were not there. and you did not find them. in the last 30 years now today, they are a powerhouse in some of the america eat best hunt man and many, others. jetblue. the list goes on. so we. three traits we are talking about. an extra sudden record success. and then of course a cause hypothesis. motivation and the drive. our account will deliver. no other alternative account success we are aware of can. talk a little bit about you talk about excluding other explanations from the people that have criticize.

i am sure that you rope them back in. but this is an immigrant what have you identified is the characteristic driving of immigrants. in the generation. in the struggle. you will see self selected. and ambitious and hard working and anybody that makes the journey that hard of course be having that in them. they will convey much of that to their children. talk about why the triple package is not just immigration? >> actually. that part of it. we are them they the i can to it. we are kind of. i think most accounts of success. whether you are talking about individual success or group accounts. what they miss is drive. you know. so if you have class. you are born wealthy. of course people were born wealthy. they have allege up. we agree with that. and you know. the explanations are that you came here. and you the children of educated immigrants.

that is a big part of the book. of course it will give you an advantage. what is missing from the accounts is motivation. >> you normal. the belief was the most educated group. they had the most networks. and we rnl the first people to say. you know. 40s. 50s and 60s not only did they lack the drive but it was a little bit goesh to be striving within the hunger. so to answer your questions there. are two types of self selection hypothesis when it comes to just immigrants and puting aside the two most important cases. jews and mormons the idea that only immigrants that are succeeding right now. are the ones that will come over well education. with the skills. >> than you fortunately is just not true. this is the politically correct ex-plan which is we do not have to look into cultures. it will all come from who your parents are. it is a big deal with the groups. indian americans and cube

americans. but this is not for example true with chinese americans. this is a findings replicated not just in the united states. l.a. and also toronto and umkc over and over studies that the children of the totally uneducated chinese, korean, vietnamese. immigrants. they are the people that have parents some illity rat. factory and restaurant workers and taxi cab drivers. they are rising at academically faster than privileged white counter parts and also hiting it out of the park with the test scores. >> that is the part that has been hard to get traction. on. of course. acknowledge that if you are the child of a software engineer you will have allege up. there is another piece of it that is really fascinating and when you are talking about cuban-americans. they came over with action.

a third of the wave so 2/3 did not. what is mean from the account is the mechanism. generation of immigrants saying. the country. that i live in a crowded place and i have no job. so i will work as a fruit picker. how will that drive or education whatever you want to call it. fed transmitted and. most immigrants that come here. and refugees have the trip pack. next generation that is where the drive comes in. there is no reason to think

that there would not be people in poverty and in india that are lazy and not working very hard and absent. and your book doesn't try i to say that india should be the wealthiest on earth. backwards. this is not a book that makes the comparisons between countries. we do not say that indian culture whatever it may be ought to have made india a more process country. the best days out there. are why nations fail and the claim there is that institutions are fundamental. that is what makes nations less prosperous. american institutions in cultural traits than allow people to succeed in this

count i like the question. this is not just the institution that's are missing in india. and cuba. obviously. it is a great question. it will clarify how we use culture. right? we are not talking about this hinduism or interaction of people but the experience that they come over. strong. middle kingdom identity and the chinese have a sense. strong sense of exempttionalism. when you have come to this country. that is all mixed up. right? as an outsider and you have a funny accent there is a dynamic interplay. >> can we come into this for a second. >> sure. this is the selectiveity can explain. they cannot explain the more monday success they are third, fourth. and fifth generation, and the two big cases in the book. in addition to that. this is see there are two. coming over with the meyer levels of education and others are becoming more

bold. motivateded. you have to look at the two things separately. it turns out that over half of the chinese immigrants do not go there with ves as in half of the independent yainl grants. we have the stereotype in the head of who is coming microsoft of them are not. chinese are mostly poor. and many are poorly educate and this is documented many have done the research and their kids. the kids of immigrants are doing just as well as the kids of the other immigrants which is odd it. will show that you it is not a parental back ground that is doing the work. but for the purposes they are doing better than the better educate and off that is what we are looking at the why are the groups doing better than the average. why are they doing better than better educated white kids. families are higher in the social economic level we are

not saying they are doing better than the other group. that is low income group of americans that is not the problem that we are trying to solve through the triple package but how come they are doing better than bettered educated kids that start from a better place. the answer is that it will have to be soming culture the up bringing. >> so you are focusing on the upside and the positive success story. who are the plenty of immigrant groups that are not doing as well as the chinese americans are. so if you look. what the group that if you look is not doing well? >> well actually. you know. we look some of the most disadvantaged groups in our book. we treat them carefully. give me an immigrant group that is not doing well. >> there are many many refugee groups that are coming over. they come over with nothing. so i am i will say sudan or

you know the book i think. why are incomes for them low and educational achievement low. why is that happen. >> that is a snapshot you know. actually. i this i that some of the groups honest of thely. some of the groups that are very poor in one generation will rise disproportionly. i do. we happen to work with the groups in new a end and i see the qualities and first of all. there are institutional problems. some of them cannot get a job. they do not have at work permit and things have nothing to do with how hard they work. it is just discrimination sometimes. if you are asking met. why are some of them not at the highest levels of income? some have had they are entire families killed. they come over one person. working and working and i about of that if we can track this, they will have disproportionate success.

you know many groups. this is a snapshot in time. so if you look at the poorest income groups. this reoften war refugees and often people that have through civil conflict. and a lot of historical reasons. >> one question that i had about the book is i am thinking back to the charles murray controversy that you guys remember. vividly. and how tense that was with concern. and everyone goupt set at murray. because they were focusing on they were trying to have behavior and groups. you know. i think that it is great that you are picking out thing that are successful. i worry that without looking at the other side that you are cherry picking. the good stuff. so i want to know. what is the negative? if you had aed to write a opposite book. where would the opposite book land? >> it is a totally fair question. as we know. the hypothesis was an iq

hypothesis we were refute that can in the book. let's be very clear. i mentioned about third generation asian americans that really uncut iq hypothesis and people have studied chinese americans and they have done the iq studies and the find something that it is not different so we look at that. and the book excludes. we look in the book amish. a group that is poor. we will try to show how they do not have a triple package. how they do not have the triple package. mexican-american immigrant communities of los angeles with some of the east asian communities of los angeles.

you know. we look a little bit at that. why they successful. many of them owe they a simulate into occult you are and a group which has for 200 or more years in the country. subject to discrimination there are so many reasons why immigrant groups that do not face and don't a simulated into the group of history and the continuing struck problems may be so. there are reasons why the asian americans are doing better than that that that would not be so shocking. what is much more interest something that groups are doing better than the average that is what we are trying to explain. they will tell that you from the latino american communities will not be raised with the high academic locations what are

the expectations? >> they captured two element triple package. on one hand. parents are telling the kids. we no he that you can out perform the rest of your classmates. you can do it. you are capable of it. that is the superiority complex. will you disappoint us. and will you fail expect takes and disappoint yourself. and embarrass our family. this type of careful analysis was done and the people that study this the most carefully. will conclude that the high expectations the difference of the expectations are some of the work. and producing a success this. is not a new finding. it will go 40 to other years. going into the groups that seem to be more successful and discovering time after time that the high expect takes are driving. and if what we are doing in the book is capturing the immigrant experience and the

interesting phenomenon of second generation success and third generation decline. that exactly what we are trying to do. no alternative explanation will carry that. not the iq ones but they cannot explain that second and third generation decline. and not views of the stuctural bias and problems in side all of which exist. they cannot explain phenomenon that sourceologists have found never immigrant group. exceptional decline after that. the explanation is the only one that i know of to capture that perfectly. going back to what is the negative. i this i that it gets at the misunderstanding. if we were talking about the cultural trait that exclusive to somebody with this history, that would be. i would disagree with that too. we are talking about when

you are talking about impulse control and behavior that's anybody could access. so believe it or not. public school educate or that's we e-mails. to give you an example. >> a schoolteacher said i am latino. a public high schoolteacher. i cannot believe this. i told my own son we kept kate that. and is he a straight a student so it is almost more demeaning to not talk about this. if you say look, this is the reason that the only reason that some groups are doing better than others is external. human capital. and literally. we will need to eliminate. change our institution that

by the way i think will be first priority. that's it. it leaves people with no agency. we will get the e-mails that there is not a level playing field this. is so unfair. to change the world too. we also want to know what to do in our own families. this is extremely useful for us to what i am talking about the in case. study habits and the different mentalities. and the most interesting study that i think in the whole book is what i called the reverse marshmallow test. so everybody knows about the marshmallow test. where you offer kids marshmallows now. or two if you wait 15 minutes and it turns out that gratification 30 years later they are wildly more successful in terms of the family happiness. stability. income. education. they row again. but first. they did a twist. they lied to half of the kids and told them first if you do this, then they broke

the promise and ranl the marshmallow test. they grabbed the first marshmallow. this goes back to the question. right. f as i believe in the case many of the groups that we are talking about. if the society has let you down. and if you do not believe that you can trust your institution and if you work hard and did he ever gratification and there will be no incentive to do this so putting it together in education. they say that teachers in the high school and the great school level should be trained. they believe in the promise of the institutions so why can't we build these ideas in. you know to take it. acknowledging the certain behaviors to lead to better academic success.

form this is the luxury debate it means. but to build in some of these different frameworks and mentalities and levels of confidence in the institution. and do better with the educational policies. with the groups that identify. and including mormons and jews they believe of in the american dream that not many many do. and that they do want to be apart of that experience. jews too. rootity they are a highly persecuted group. they may exagerate. a belief in the system. with how fair and the system is. yet there is seems to be no doubt in part that the belief is that it is a necessary part that you can make it.

and and that mormonons want to be apart of the boy scouts. and you know. mitt romney wants to run for president in the time when the presidency seems to be a poison challis so it is wanting to part of something other americans are have i are to say another thing about the topic. i think that we may want to ask ourselves what type of conversation that we should have on the issues. if you say that you this i that asian kids' sturdy habits responsible. the significant part for doing better on the sat. it seems like people want to sigh that doing that again. if that the response to that very simple statement that in fact must be true we will

have a problem on our hands. we will not be able to give the information that we need to the anti-poverty programs and not to mention to many, many families out there that may want to know you know. how to help kids out there. >> if that is the case. you are going to be the one that will go into poorer african-american communities to and having a sense of superiority. >> i think that the support not us importantly but the whole thesis will support the earlier childhood intervention. they were great ones in boston and new haven. >> it is you know. essentially. all about how talk about parents. grandparents here. with the sense of actually

the motivation and the long-term persevereence. there are not so many things that would you teach earlier on. and we are not trying to make it seem really easy. it is just that in the history reef so little success. education and anti-poverty. it is like why tie your hands behind your back. talking about mitt romney this. is so interesting and having to be from a package and cult you is that by the virtue of the security that have you. i will meet the parents expect takeors in the case. need to show americans that we are even better. that will force people into very narrow forms of success. and they are the types of being criticized of championing. we are saying that the

culture will you know. in order to prove to everybody that we are so great that, we can only be a doctor or a lawyer or run for president. and we have to be on wall street. and younger generations of the group almost all uniformly feel. and unpleasant pressure that we have received. and there is so much in the asian american immunity and they have the model stereotype. and a first generation is too narrow and to take that energy and the focus which we have on to apply this to something you know. to abc a stan up comic and a jazz musician to apply what you care about. and gets the academy award for the best director. something that we all want and for the "brokeback mountain". revolutionary. and this is something that says you know. you are still young and

maybe be an academic. >> let's. i want to change. gears a little bit. and go to you guys. a married couple. which of you has the better triple package? >> there is no doubt about that. >> that would be my wife. >> no it is different. generational. >> jed is more like you. i do not know anything but you but i was raised in a thing where. you know. my parents had a strong sense and gave me a strong sense of exceptionality and i this i that as a cheld shield against discrimination. when i was little i was in independent in. a guy would make slanty eyes and accurate sent that i had a chinese accent. and i remember telling my mother once about this and she said why do you care about that guy? we come from along civilization. if he is making fun of you. who cares. and impulse control and discipline here.

>> when you have none of that from family. you are just a individual. >> what i brought to the table the insecurity part i brought that. one last point. in the city. education policies. this is the thing. >> i this i that a lot of us fall into the false dichotomy. to say you get into the polar opposite view on the stuctural problems and discrimination. and nothing anyone does will make a difference given those problems. so we need stuctural reform of cities and segregation.

we need educational reform. can we say there is a individual side of it and that these educational policies. we can address those. the problem that's we say existed. they are programs that people will go in for perseverance. character and interest in education and school. so they are teaching all of the thing that would go into it if they were a triple package group. so it will make perfect sense. i think that we will again lies and as i wrote the memoir about. this is a jewish case that is no longer imgrand group. and if you asked people other theories. people do not want to talk about the jews. it gets to the biological one. and nobody wants to go there. even if people think it.

i this our second element insecurity and exceptionalism will go in one way. this is a group the holocaust and fourth generation jewish american. but have you a part of history. yes. >> i saw this my own father and i this i that our account will do better at explaining jewish success than any other that i know there. are people that i believe it is iq based and i myself think that the stirred he's are not yet believable. so i do not think that is a view that i will take. what we are saying is true. then what you would be looking for is, is this a group that would replenish. insecurity over generations? >> that would be the surprise that would make it into the exception of the usual story of decline. as i with my own father. coming over. this is a long timing a and

my father is growing up. he should be getting more comfortable he should be getting more relaxed according to the normal generation decline and whether about you know 1 or 13. the holocaust happened. okay. it happened for a whole generation of jew that's should be the ones getting comfortable and starting to go passing the declined story to their kids. initial stead a holocaust. >> if anything. we have a sense of insecurity in the group. obviously that would be it. and israel too. for later generation of the jews the sense of anti-some nichl. and married jews identify with israel though americans they worry about what happens there. and in parallel i think there a you know jews will say this to each other. i this that i there is a element of the nervousness and anxiety in the psyche. that i am not saying that i have it myself but i do think it is widespread.

i do not want to belabor the jewish question but i love it. are we heading r jews going to be. in the generation. i mean. i do not. i am a jew. i do not have a deep sense of insecurity that anyone is coming for me. or that i'm not worrying about israel. is it likely capital that i have triple package capital will dissipate in my children? >> we do raise that possibility. there have been studies receiptly. that are suggesting for the first time that jewish academic declines. we do not know if that translate lower incomes or other types of nonsuccess. but in the metrics where people used to out perform everybody terms of academic competitions. me rnl doing that anymore to the same degree.

so more secure. if our theory is right. we would predict and expect some jewish decline. and that is evidence suggesting this. >> and probably we have different views on this. you know. this will go back to the definition of success. because language barriers. if you look at the accounts in the book of the jews in the 19 s and 20s they sound like chinese immigrant parents. you have to be a doctor. and play the piano. and the vie linl. the respectible things. right. >> you are afraid your kid will not survive. you cannot be a po so. now. there is a metrix of maybe he will they very much i

this i that this part. we have document thoroughly. jews are directing movies writing things and transforming environmental transformation. and it may not be n physics anymore. it is a immigranty type thing to do. and you can do numbers. >> so i want to go back to you guys right now. amy. you rote wrote a success famous and controversial book about parenting of your daughters. did through the triple package come out of that book at all. >> believe it or not. we started the book and started to think of the book before that. and in 2000 i taught a seminar on the focus this actually on individuals groups and the nations and in the end of the day. the book is all about individuals. but we started to do the

research. and started to hire research assist and the and were interrupted by a global firestorm. and we you know. after things settled down. we started to work on it again. we started to think about it before. i have written books about so-called market dominant minorities like things indonesia and africa. and initial rested entrepreneurial minorities 2000. >> how did you divide the work? who did this work? >> i am the disciplined you know. aunt. the -- i managed research and i love culture. digging into all of the you know. sources and reading more sources. then amassing research. jed is the analytical thinker. they pictured a morning person. is he a night person. we never had see eachother. we have the opposite personalities and opposite skills. >> also i am the worst person in the world at taking criticism so i would do writings and she would

edit and the next thing you know. books would be thrown at each other in the household. it is an even distribution of doing the writing and editing you know. you managed research and assistance that is true. >> i am interested in the facts. i think that jed is interested in the analytical framework. >> is it your framework or your fact. >> we will interact always. as to what i would enjoy doing to get every book ever written on am issue to pull together the stirred he's and then you know. i think that it was interactive. the jokes aside. you know. how do we go about this systematically you what is the organization. what is the point going to be also i had been writing for almost 20 years about america. about interesting development in american history and the culture that you can see in the countries of western europe.

and society has gotten more and more interested in living in the present. and you can see this in modern psychology. art. and relevance to the book which. as opposed to the future or the past? >> well or both. >> it could be either but for this. this is one of the things that the culture will do one of the most important things is or internet people in time. so the cult asked members to generate in the future of a kind or and some tell members more and more. will you need to live in the now. this is an interesting value development of western culture that the live in the present has become more and more appealing to people. that connection with this and that book is that one of the things that the triple package will seem to do is turn people no deferred gratification machines. >> that is what runs up against the american culture so it was really a combination of the two interests. the successful and ethnic minorities and mine in

american culture and to live in the moment and you are not. this is not just a book that is he criticizing and living in the moment. we want to seize the moment. i mean. one of my favorite parts in the group is constitutional law parties that in the end. jed who teaches konls tuitional law notes that the document. declaration of the constitution would have a different im. up to this point. and declaration of independence pursuit of happiness and rebellious document. and the view on the constitution is --. >> yes. this was an interesting too imin history. declaration of independence. pursuit of happiness. a break from europe this is the live in the moment time of document andever song did not believe in the constitution. constitutions would attempt to restrain people. >> that is an attempt by people tie hands behind the back and say that in 20 years to 50 years. you cannot things to violate rights. you cannot extent powers more than this.

and this is what the whole constitutional structure is. jefferson did not believe in it. he thought any moment that people should do whatever they want to the the trip package here with the declaration to be more of the live in the moment and having alive in the moment mentality. and both of the element were part of? eric from the beginning. rebellious part of america with this type of triple package and hard work. make money. and security of the economic failure or not. this is something new in america. that america will create through the new market institution. something that every man and every individual would measure a success or failure based on the economic success that was not true before. so you will get a new type of insecurity. also with this type of american rebellion this. is the analysis that we will give in the last chapter. >> fix ating looking forward here. at the moment.