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>> up next on the tv, "after words" with guest host jane hall. this week, gabriel sherman in its first look, "the loudest voice in the room: how the brilliant, bombastic roger ailes built fox news -- and divided a country." in it, the new york magazine contributing editor provides an intimate and detailed look at the life of the former nixon white house number who started fox news channel. this program is about an hour. >> gabriel sherman, congratulations on your new book. it's generated a lot of interest. including socks in new york and also because i was on a fox news program about the media. i want to ask you what made you read a book about roger ailes? >> guest: i've been fascinated at the intersection of media in

politics that's covered in your times, "washington post," cnn, msnbc. i wanted to do a book about the history. it was the most dominant cable news network. ratings for double cnn and msnbc. early in the reporting of the book i realized the way to tell the story is through the life and career of roger ailes because fox is a complete expression of his worldview. the network is shaped in his image and without roger ailes' unique talent, i don't think fox would be the success it is. it really developed and developed into a portrayed as ailes with fox news is a culmination of everything he'd worked towards and politics in show business and television. >> he said fox news is a political op duration. can you tell us what you mean by that? >> of course. it goes back to roger ailes. roger ailes is a political

person. he got his start in television, but he owes his career to his work as the republican but a close strategist and a campaign adviser to republicans like mitch mcconnell, bill graham, george h.w. bush, ronald reagan and richard nixon who he worked for nick and 68. ailes thrived in the campaign. secrecy is paramount. driving for russia's competitiveness come all the things we associate with fox news is tied to roger ailes' career background. when he came in 1996 and started the network for rupert murdoch, he brought all of the culture, the dna of a political campaign. i write in the buckeye restructured it like a political campaign. there's a group of executives, his seniormost team that called themselves the g8. that is in reference to the g six, which was a group of campaign advisers who worked for george h.w. bush in 1998. you see all these freezes in

saying that come from a culture of political camp pain that occur at fox. more than not, the way the network operates on the structure of a political campaign. it starts with the ada meeting. edouard marches in lockstep. there's a sense of mission and purpose that flows from the top and you see all the attributes to come out of the political world. >> host: tummy some specifics. how do you see on the air what you see as a reflection of roger ailes to hating this agenda in the republican agenda. >> guest: what you see a fox that is so unique and so much better -- >> guest: even his detractors. >> host: he is an eye for color, timing, picking talent that speaks authentically through the screen is really a testament to his talent. but the way it manifests itself is fox tries to use narratives the storylines they really

cannot have the political world. in 2008 with the rise of barack obama, you saw fox pursued the story line through the first term of his president leave. obama sars was a big story in the idea that the administration was appointing policy advisers that had extra constitutional authority. he saw the health care debate was a huge story. i write in the book how roger ailes gave a path to a health care pundit who could go on camera and make the point that the bill is too unwieldy. he could really give an on-air talking head a stack of papers this tall they say she could wave on screen to make a point. you see the scripting, the narrative message that comes out of the political world in b.c. and the programming. >> host: fox is the most criticized the democrats on, dennis kucinich in the prologue. what is your response to that? how is it so unilateral?

>> guest: that's a great point. the critique leveled against fox it is a republican network does not mean they can't have liberal voices on fox. in fact, it is a testament to his talent that he curates the people who appear on this network so there is a mix of voices so you have liberals red meat to conservatives. it's never a fair fight. anyone who watched hannity and combs would never consider skandia column cynical exchange of left and right ideas. in the book i describe how candidates producers created this elaborate ruse to keep columns on board and make alan combs feel like an equal partner in the show when in fact sean hannity was the coexecutive producer of the show. sean hannity would take the talking points and topics and producers would go to alan thompson say what is your

feedback? the whole structure of the shows stick data by sean hannity. it also sort of stacked the deck so conservatives always win while allowing himself to have some liberals on there to give him the talking point to say listen we get both sides. >> host: what do you make of the fact that people say they have good journalist in the washington bureau. not everyone likes the storyline you set out here. >> guest: it goes back to ill shameless as a political messenger. i want to step back and talk about his work on richard nixon in 1968, which will help people understand why fox can be a political organization while having liberals and reporters on its payroll. so let's go back in time. in 1968 roger ailes had come out of the world to daytime tv. he'd been the executive producer of the night of the show. he talked his way in the richard

nixon campaign by convincing nixon he needed to master television. so how did nixon structure his campaign? they travel the country doing town hall events that roger ailes called the men in the arena. staged events were nixon would appear in front of a group of panelists that were just regular citizens handpick did nixon and answer questions from the panelists and the audience at the local republican supporters cheering wildly for the candidates. the entire event was staged to make nixon look courageous, that he was racing prescience from hostile panelists unaffected staging, lighting, audience and everything was put in place and make nixon excel. let's escorted time. fox news. roger ailes wants to communicate a political message. she knows if you just the talking points to the idea it's going to -- it's not going to be authentic. so if you apply the same

techniques the nixon campaign did by handpick candiotti in, having people to confer credibility, that are hostile potentially to his message and that exchange of ideas confers a level of credibility on fox the same way nixon was able to confer credibility on his campaign by having panelists asked questions. ailes in the 1968 campaign out that the best panel, the best townhall nixon did with the toughest, where he had to sweat to face tough questions because the audience wanted to say. he knows the audience wants to see republicans have to fight for their site and ultimately when they went to stoppage more effective. >> host: it's interesting because they have hit pretty hard. they have a combative public relation apparatus. they have said you didn't talk to roger ailes or check the facts at hand.

you have a lot of anonymous sources along with other sources than you have been the most incendiary comment to a source familiar with the situation. tell me how you respond to saying you didn't get our guy. how do you stand on not? >> guest: two things. the book was fact checked. i did team up to fact checkers who spent more than 2000 hours betting every word of the manuscript. just going back to roger ailes. i reached out to have a dozen times in person and rating. i traveled states to see him in person where he was giving speeches at public events. i wrote to his public-relations advisers. i would sit down and discuss every fact in the book. he denied every request to participate. >> host: how did you ascertain the truth if you are in at? >> guest: rechecked

documentary record and ultimately in the end, i feel confident of the veracity of the importance and it's been out now and all the revelations of the book. it is not challenged one single point in the book. >> host: an anti-semitic remark maliciously reported. he has denied some gain. so it's not true that they haven't tried. >> guest: they've tried to. but that will distract from the record because the specific episode is based on a documentary record from nbc from an internal investigation that nbc human resources commission to investigate roger ailes and the lawyer, the essay counts votes of the secret investigation in the documentary record he produced on behalf of an ac. so as a reporter, i reflect their denial from the boat.

but i rely on the historical record. in 1995, this episode is discussed. the man in question who ailes made this remark to set the time the fact he's denying all these years later when there's other factors into play, there's a lot of other factors. as a reporter, i rely on the historical record will give in the subject the chance to deny. postcodes let me ask you something that your encounter with ailes rang true to me. years ago he says see how you say about the i want to elect the next president and it's a church quote. he said you're all wrong and there's a certain kind of kids you are all wrong. he says you are a good reporter, but you are all wrong and that is not what i want to do. obviously, they've had a lot of political people.

people who joke this is a place where future and past political candidates might be. and at the same time, he didn't elect the president. so that seems to be a contradiction. it was reported by others if you try to get chris christie to run. he also approached petraeus. you also say to be stansell. how do you square him saying he wanted to elect the next president with what actually was able to do? >> guest: well, i think that gets you one of the things that makes roger ailes a character is that he had these competing interests. he is a man in a certain way at war with himself because he is the tv man and the party man. posters you can be in conflict with each other. what i find so fascinating is that my book shows in the year 2012 in this campaign we saw the

limits of roger ailes' ability to shape the landscape through the medium of television. for much of his career, television was the all-powerful tool. it propelled its candidates come to shape the perceived candidates. what happened in 2012 is fox news became so powerful that he shaped the brand of the republican party that it ultimately eroded at first a the white house because the image that fox presented to the american public while compelling to the base, while it was a phenomenally successful television product, it was not a winning political message. ailes confronted the limits of his power. my book and some note that it's a story of decline. he traced the rise and fall of his career to the highest power in american politics and is now on the decline size and not this all-powerful tool. >> host: talk about his days.

it is generally perceived as an older way of female audience, which fox news anchors are often very attractive. i guess my question is whom is he appealing to? because there seems to be kind of an angry appeal here. he has himself in the past as when he created the network i'm just countering the liberal bias of the mainstream media. i would think he's different from the republican party. >> host: would've been appealing for the same people for decades. the same people who richard nixon. the silent majority coalition that they assembled the campaign with the republican coalition throughout the years. the reagan democrats, voters who

say that george h. debbie bush in 1988 when roger ailes was running pushes media campaign and to michael dukakis on foreign policy. all distorted notions of pay churches and. these are the sort of middle-class populist white voters often times from the heart to, he grew up in a factory town. these are the voters who felt the america data from the 1950s and early 60s is slipping away. that is why fox is so successful making cultural appears. the idea that american traditions are under siege. these are the voters of getting older. it's important to point out the median age continues to go well. it's an older demographic, wider demographic. the voters that ailes appealed to her getting older every year

and the coalition he's been speaking to for decades now. >> host: do you think he believes that? >> guest: i think it's both. one of the revelations in my book is ailes is a conservative true believer. there's always been this guessing game at fox news. as a cynical television, show business are real? the politics are real and you see it and immigration, else's view on foreign policy is an government spending. he is a committed conservative. that's fine. those are his beliefs. he should on those beliefs. it's interesting why he's not want it to others in the past. he's always wanted to talk his way out of situations. he wants to keep people off balance, never knowing what he says. at fox news, producers can never talk about roger ailes. there's a name in the network when people want to communicate with ailes once on the screen they say the second floor wand for the second-floor set.

in reference to roger ailes executive suite on the second floor. it's interesting ailes want this man behind the men not on his views because that's a separate point. so he is a true believer and is a show business techniques. the warrant christmas is one issue where he does believe the warrant christmas is that christmas is a tradition under attack. that said, he knows that the successful programming strategy and interview with the brother, he looked out at the demographics inside a vast majority of the american people celebrate christmas. so as a marketing strategy, fox should be the pro-christmas network. it should appeal to a christmas supporters and let the other networks fight over the scraps. so that's a great anecdote that showed how ailes is willing to

use his showbiz this to achieve his political end. >> host: you're talking about wedge issues pretty much. let's talk a little bit about the impact of the success of fox news on the other networks. what do you see as the impact? >> guest: the biggest impact, one of the lasting legacies is one of the reasons i argue in the book he's divided the country is because he's divided the media. the notion of a liberal media, which has been a conservative belief going back to the time of next and an even cold water earlier. ailes brought back to the story. the success of fox first immediate to choose sides. let me illustrate that. i go into great detail in my book about how both cnn and msnbc responded to the success of fox in the years after 9/11.

the ratings came in 2002 never turned back. in a book i describe how the executives at nbc in the run-up to the iraq war were really concerned and apoplectic at this idea that fox was continuing to run away. we should be more conservative than fox. we should bring our cells. they put american flags all over the screen. they hired a bunch of conservative talk radio hosts. they try to outfox fox. what is so interesting and no one can match roger ailes unique talents to reach conservatives. number two, after that failed, msnbc found success with keith olbermann during the second term of bush's presidency. and then he decided to go while led in brand themselves as a liberal progressive cable news network. you see how ailes is so successful that he forced other

networks to change their programming try to cheat and is not only change the media through fox, they changed the media through other channels. every media is forced to explain to their viewers, rick conservative? server down the middle? the fact we are trying to argue whether "the new york times" is a liberal newspaper is a testament to find themselves. that drumbeat after 9/11 was very good. i'm not sure you cannot treebeard it totally because people were being asked to wear flag pins on the air or they were being accused of being patriotic if they were waving the flag. >> guest: i interviewed one fox producer told me how after 9/11 they were literally running to times square in new york city to buy flag to put on their anchors and everyone in the

office. there was this fervor, almost a spiritual moment to have ripple effects throughout the culture. cnn as it pains to have some executives say it must be sure to point out even during the worst abuses, fox pointed out. i've agree that there were abuses on the other side. that drumbeat i would agree has been very successful. whether it's attributable to fox, post-9/11, there's always pressure going to war. let me ask you one other question that president obama. he thinks obama is not for the country tell me how obama has complained out that he's been

convicted. what is it about the depiction that you see is driving >> what is so interesting -- >> host: give me specific. but unambitious if they've been a air to president obama. >> guest: going back to the president in 2007, fox news ran with a report that he was educated in madras. they were really skirting close to the line of hiding his beliefs. the obama campaign of the issued the safety of painting them outside of the american mainstream. in meetings obama hates capitalism, that green energy hammer is the lender bankruptcy,

which is a legitimate scandal and a black market for the apollo white house, but emblematic of the idea he wants control of america's economy. the idea of the panel was something that was accepted in a populous culture. it wasn't just relegated to the conservative base. the idea whether the health care bill had to panel and it was a legitimate point of the health care debate because fox is pushing not aggressively. what i think is interesting is obama's candidacy in his election change the mission of fox news. i interview someone close who told me prior to obama's candidacy, they'll saw himself competing with cnn, msnbc, "new york times." fox is the counterbalance in the american media. but obama's rise, ailes saw something different. he saw the america he knew as a child and adult changing any

sought permission to confront this and almost standing up to the president. that's why open the book with an exchange that took base at the white house in 2011 at the holiday party at the white house host for the administration. he's going to greet the president and barack obama turns to ailes and makes a joke is this the most powerful man in the world is here. he says don't believe those rumors, mr. president. i'm made them up myself. what's so which are seen as d.c. so much revealed about these two men. you see the president to end the year 2011 facing a tough reelection while he was making a big, a joke but really there's some truth to it. fox at that point in time really seemed like it was possible to change the political landscape

in america. ailes' answer about making up rumors, you see the humor. you see the ratio self-deprecation. he downplays his ambition and it's really been this big part of his career. i thought it was such a way to open the book to bring these two men together to show how at the highest levels of politics, roger ailes of barack obama were adversaries that way to get into the book and you learn a lot about fox and the president. >> host: you said america was changing. i you apply and it's racial attack? glenn beck is quoted as saying on the air that obama had a deep-seated hatred of white people. what are you saying that changed when obama was elected? >> guest: a lot of it has to do with race. in his news media and there's a reason to have the civil rights movement anymore because we have a black man in the white house.

his words not i'm. people in the meeting told me that. what is interesting is ailes grew up at a time when white christian men were the dominant voice international politics. he was born in 1840. he lives to the women's movements. he lived through. we've had all these competing voices now entered the american conversation. fox is really the channel speaking to that part of america used to feel like they were in the country and no longer do. i think ailes sees himself as a protect turf at america. >> host: just to play devils advocate, you don't have any evidence that this is a racially motivated attack on president obama. >> guest: the politics of race or part of it. >> host: you're talking about disaffected people who feel they are using --

>> guest: on innovation, environmental regulation deity of america becoming a more cultural country, becoming a country that has struck her environmental laws. i look at europe. they have much higher taxes on gasoline, energy use. the idea america would go down these other forms of policy choices, ailes sees a different country and speaking to those americans who feel america should not be open to other ways of governing itself. race is one part of it and the idea obama is a black president validated with addressing and has now done away with this idea we should have affirmative action, civil rights. grace is just one wedge issue that he uses.

you don't know if their views on race and obama are, do you? >> guest: i'm addressing the notion he said obama's presidency means we don't have to have a civil rights movement anymore. roger ailes has black friends. this is not an issue of black versus white and achieve some people specifically. it's a view about politics around race. the idea that as a country we should have a political sensitivity with the legacy of racial history. if you look at the story stocks push around the time of the 2008 election, fox is aggressively pushing the new black panther story, the idea that the obama white house would not punish groups breaking the law because they were like groups. not because they were giving favorable treatment.

>> host: that's going to have to be a free minute. we'll take a break of a comeback but talk about his biography. i want to ask you what you've learned that makes you see him clearly. >> guest: great. >> host: thank you. >> host: isak to his brothers. i want to ask you a type to you given a lot of people are afraid to attack you because they would do it at the end of the trial. i don't think most viewers know much about his background. what was his childhood play? what was he dealing with and what connections if any do you

make to how he goes on to found fox news? >> guest: it is important to point out in interviews he built fox news from life experience and that quote resonated with me. i wanted to understand what was the life experience we see manifested on the screen at fox news. i went back to warren, ohio. a factory town on the outskirts of youngstown, more well-known fact reach out in that area. it is central to understanding who roger ailes is. he was born in 1840. neither of his parents went to college. his father was the fact three for men. blue-collar job. he managed to make its crew. his mother was an ambitious woman, did not have an education, but she pushed the boys. roger ailes was one of three children. she really wanted them to excel. it is interesting to note at that time this was the time of limitless possibility for blue-collar america.

the factories were booming. general motors, the parent company of packard was employing thousands upon thousands of people. you need jobs are plentiful. health care, benefits. packard essentially was a city on itself. a hetero newspaper, picnics, company event. it was really a community. there was a social cohesion and for blue-collar tousle at war and that we see lost today. going back to roger ailes side, he was the ronald reagan picture with his brother. that defined his childhood. the other thing that defined his childhood, the much darker thing was his struggle with hemophilia come a blood condition that you prevent the blood from clotting that someone gets a cut. roger ailes suffered at a time when the average life expectancy for a severe hemophiliac was 10 or 11 years old. there's a very serious medical

condition. this defined his childhood because he lived with the fear that he didn't know how long he would make it. the sense of fatalism and the will to overcome the disability that rocked his competitiveness ever since. an interesting thing to point out the other part of his childhood with his father. his father was a resentful, bitter man. he was pushed around by the planned in his father took it out on his children. his brother told me and roger i consulted the divorce records of his. and testified that he was the pilot man and threatened to kill her. a very dark childhood. out of the dark childhood you see a string of successful people and the will to succeed

and overcome difficulties in the past. the one final thing that defined his childhood was television. he was often home watching tv in the 1940s when television was coming into its own as a medium and you grew up on shows like gunsmoke. classic american shows with strong male leads, plot line, stark divisions between good and evil. the world of television that cap evaded roger ailes had propelled him on his career. he cbcs plan to do more in flowery. >> host: combative quality push around and kind of the populace on. there's a kind of populace and they which are think it's very interesting in the background you talk about. he's also been quoted as saying he loves his dad and yet it was a difficult to deal with. >> guest: at the way he's talked about it in life is his

father taught them life lessons. he is still with this book which i recommend to any reader in an era in addition to reading my book, his own book, if a fascinating window into his philosophy tail stocks about using this idea. he had to save sick people make positive people bring them down. the school of hard knocks that ailes cannot does. he applied it to fox news. one of the things they found interviewing all these people is a sense of loyalty he inspires in a sense of inspiration. ailes channeled this kind of dark childhood that he had into this positive message of making people feel as if they can overcome anything. >> host: again to feed into people feeling their world is disappearing for that kind of contradiction. he harnesses contradictions to repeal us to peoples different

needs. i want to talk about television for a s%needs. i want to talk about television for a second. he ends up at ohio university. a pioneering broadcasting the part and a radio television becoming an industry in the 1950s. ailes is kind of loss. he didn't know what he wanted to do. he wanted to join the military but he was kept out of the air force. he found this mission, his life was the studio. he would come in at 6:00 in the morning, because last to leave. as a reporter, who is interesting see your subject to find their mission in life. interviewing ailes' college friend and hearing him talk about it, you see someone to find direction and he founded in radio and television. >> host: let me ask you something. a lot of people don't know he was very successful. he meets richard nixon so is a

very successful producer. he's the star joe mcginnis' book about making of richard nixon on the side of the president, which was the first idea about packaging the president, which everybody else has noticed more recently. one of the things interesting his he's gotten very good price because he so often quotable and a combative way. he said some awful things about the competition and yet journalists seem to like him. >> host: his charm and charisma has been one of the things that has propelled him to where he is. his ability to charm reporters. his unwillingness to sit down with me disconnect it to that. >> host: tell me about that. >> guest: he controls images of republicans in his media company's channel. but if you think about it, the number one story goes back to

mike douglas show. an adviser to richard nixon in 1968. here comes the "philadelphia inquirer" columnist and roger ailes through his charm, profanity, his charisma he taught himself into being the star joe mcginnis' book. when that book came out, roger ailes, who was wider known to the american public he came in overnight celebrity. even though he was trash talking nixon, they wanted him to do the same thing for nixon. and he became the svengali of this generation. that's a testament to the ability throughout his career has massaged and embellished his own life narrative to a mass power. >> host: what was so interesting for me as a reporter

is to look at the hundreds of thousands of crows skimming through the years to the historical record. the a that mike dougarchive said that mike douglas show, richard nixon presidential library, else time as a broadway producer. i interviewed his colleagues. too much of the version of events at the historical record, you oftentimes that discrepancy. this wasn't a case of trying to save roger ailes tells tall tales. i was trying to see where did he massaged his story to portray himself in a way that would advance his career. he is in this great tradition of american hucksters and storytellers that he t. barnum of the citizen kane and larger-than-life characters real and fictional whoever impressed themselves upon the american consciousness by massaging their stories is what i'm trying to

say. he's a great storyteller. that is a testament to the talent, not in any way a critique. >> host: i want to ask you something your cupboard i didn't know that much about which was the directions of tv ad, which you can explain is a new service and how that in pics what is on the air. as a journalist covering this in as a media critic covering it, it is also his difficult to say where and how someone may or may not be doing some thing on the air that might be put in a thumb on the scale. talk to me what you learned about that operation. >> guest: this is a fascinating little bug part of american history that i hope i book a lebanese because it's one of the most interesting parts of the project. roger ailes is a news director at tv had come a fledgling new service from 1974 to early 76 they went bankrupt.

i enhanced by the mad who is the finance the air. the team the coke of his days throughout the 70s and 80s. roger ailes gets there in 1875. what tbn was doing this packaging new service to sell to local broadcast affiliates. it would balance out the big three. the source of television news. q-quebec a generation were trying to find a way to cut through the mainstream media, even though we were talking about it in the terms that bad. so i consulted these documents at the farmers, a man named robert polley and he teamed to start this network. there were these fascinating

documents, memos for they were strategizing how they could package the news to appeal to conservatives. they would literally send their lineups to a conservative watchdog group called the accuracy in media, which is a pioneering watchdog group. now media matters on the last command is festers on the rate, this idea that tv ad is going to send its lineups to a group to get their seal of approval was showing me how explicitly they were trying to dictate the news from a conservative is. they were focusing on techniques they could use. one memo were a consultant for tvn figured out they could develop the road would be posed. if liberals were hammering the fbi and cia for the abuses of power, conservatives could hammer the whole welfare agency, department of education, conservatives have their own good event to beat up on.

i saw the blueprint of fox news. it's a fascinating story because ailes does not talk much. most interviews he's taught over the biography. he was in this environment, soaking up these techniques to 20 years later he applied a fox news. >> host: what about the idea of repetition? tuc fox repeating the same message throughout the day? >> guest: that is one of the principal techniques as we develop story lines. back in time the iraq war, the run-up to the iraq war -- they develop into simple plot lines. they develop adversaries. let's take it to the case of iraq. remember the whole freedom fries

thing. they were hammering out to zero, eric-based television network, anti-american. michael moore was a fox news enemy. they develop his tears who would be on the opposing side and then they would know that their characters on the pro side, george w. bush president as a hero. they developed these story lines and repeat them through the day said on fox and friends come and go through news hour and are continued in prime time. they discuss how the repetition of stories can be a powerful propaganda technique. >> host: if you watch msnbc and fox come ascendancy feel as if you're watching -- >> guest: fun house mirrors. >> host: parallel mirrors. often been about acorn or so under a working power. but what you say to people who

say, let me just ask you, what is the difference between what msnbc is doing quite are they similar or how are they different? >> guest: msnbc has decided to dismiss as a progressive liberal talk channel. i think that's an interesting marketing strategy. interesting to point at a business decision, not an ideological decision. msnbc was more than happy to write a conservative right-wing network after 9/11 when they thought that is a better marketing strategy. ill start a box for political reasons. msnbc is a business marketing issue. what i think is interesting is msnbc is not as good as fox. s. television producers, the programming is not as compelling because they don't have roger ailes' unique talent, his

ability to foster conflict come his ability to pay talent. if you look at the talent, they were oftentimes dated personalities. o'reilly was set up for when he came to fox and 96. sean hannity had never hosted a television show. ddc was added for. he sees personalities authentic, who jumped through the screen, the viewers can relate to on an emotional, visceral level. msnbc gives too caught up in being ideologically pure and tried to an ideological arguments rather than understanding television is about performance. it's the drama and spectacle. >> host: the people at msnbc would disagree with your proposals they appear they ideological. they seem to have been attracting the de@ ideological. they seem to have been attracting the demographic. very amusingly i thought recently how reported an interview he said he liked but

didn't want to get her into trouble. i think it would disagree with you about how their programming comes across. but that is the talent here, what do you think ailes view of bill o'reilly yesterday? bill o'reilly has this huge success. what is their relationship? >> guest: is an interesting relationship. not particularly close, but they both need each other. this this interesting is o'reilly -- will o'reilly is the one talent at fox who can do almost what they want. >> host: he often can disagree. >> guest: that is a testament to two things. bill o'reilly really made his show. in 1996 he was hosting a 6:00 p.m. show that was really going nowhere and they moved

o'reilly to 8:00 p.m. during the clinton lewinsky scandal. o'reilly connected with the audience who is outraged at bill clinton and don't read the sense of the drama of the story, his ability to take us to engage with him, his fiery interviewing a second irish street cop. he has the detective's ability to laser in on what the issue is. that is a testament has carved out at fox. he's the highest rated show. he is the linchpin of their entire primetime lineup. ailes jokes that o'reilly uses a show to sell his books to promote himself, but it really is because he is discouraging respect that he's a self-made man. >> host: it is interesting because o'reilly has come not in ways that do not fit this scenario you describe on innovation, good control because

these powerful he has o'reilly really is essentially the one talent at fox or some exception who can do what he wants. sean hannity is different. sean hannity is very much in lockstep with what roger ailes wants. it is interesting to know that bill shine, programming deputy was director-producer and the line between ailes, sean hannity where he can get what he wants onto the air or hannity. >> host: let's come back to the 2012 election. there is a famous moment on the air or karl rove, who has been on fox for many years is raising a lot of money against obama and doing commentary about obama disbelieves the call. tell us a little bit about that.

i was a moment where megan kelley the answer, basically said let's go check and looks pretty awful lot not. it doesn't fit the scenario. what has happened in that paul meant for sheep eyeshades insist with good look at the return. >> guest: we should back up to it happened that morning. roger l.'s consent is played in election coverage. in the afternoon they have a new spitting were the anchors and analysts talk about how they n they have a newight. spitting were the anchors and analysts talk about how they will cover that night. ailes was frustrated that chris christie had given obama the photo up on the beach after hurricane sandy. the fox point analyst said our polls don't show that her broadway. well couldn't help. everyone in that room is one of my interview subjects so they felt that ailes did not believe the polls. he felt the polling was skewed and romney had a chance.

so it was this idea that the data, the mindset that a lot of people inside the network had in election night. that's over to the ohio call. the party insider was fighting spain were not going to call it. but bowman woman encapsulated the deny list them. talking heads like morris proclaiming a landslide. >> host: romney was watching fox news. >> guest: the reasonable that resonated was that it showed the world on fox news it was a soft teen universe that people thought romney was going to win, even though the polls showed romney facing an uphill battle. making kelley, which is a testament to listen, we are going to challenge you on this. made for an amazing television going to challenge you on this. made for an amazing television moment. this sort of thing makes him a

television genius. this humiliating moment or karl rove turned it into this television moment where everyone had talked about it and interviewed the analysts said they broke the tie in the network holiday. that is such a fitting into the way fox covered the election. >> host: is it possible to produce megan kelley was an independent journalist? >> guest: i think it is those. making kelley, you know, she has conservative views, but she's also relate to challenge people's assumption. she used it to flex their muscles in the sec to make make great television. >> host: let me ask you this. what do you see is the future of fox news? >> guest: he is turning 74 and may. the future is dependent on roger

ailes. but it's so interesting to see us so far declined to name his access to, at least publicly. he had fun but is not who it is. important to point out is rupert or doc's decision because they don't fox news the ailes is the visionary who created it. fox news cannot exist without roger ailes. so much a reflection of his personality, of his political instincts. everyone waits to take their cues. there is not a strong personality within the networks to rise up to fill those shoes. i think ultimately the future of fox news is an open question. >> host: what about rupert murdoch and his relationship? do you think murdoch envisioned what would happen? is the ideological of the way you per tray ailes has been ideological? >> guest: i don't think rupert>t murdoch could've ever imagined ills created.

fox news is not the single most profitable division of the empire. it generates a billion dollars of reliable profit every year. ideologically, rupert murdoch is the conservatives. he's pharmacy business person and has demonstrated an ability to bacchae politicians when it suits the needs of his business. he posted at tony blair and new labour in the united kingdom. he reached out to hillary clinton here in the state. with that said, the profits give him the independents are programmed program fox sec said. issues like immigration, issues like education, issues like climate change not on the same page. murdoch seals to do it because it suits his business interests. >> host: today we live in a different world and he's acknowledged he was slow to understand or try to put money

behind any web apparatus. you paint him as the man who divided america and that's the title of your book. looking back, when we let back on this, first about two questions for you. what do you think has been the long-term going forward impact on our political discourse? what is the impact on how politics is good if you're in washington d.c. of what is your opinion

partisanship is the ultimate goal in both the left and the right now, if you look at the polarization in congress, the politics now is about trying to get all of your issues across the finish line rather than the compromise. >> host: when you think this is different from how congress operated 100 years ago? >> guest: again, i don't think he has invented a new style of politics, but he has brought us back to the style of politics.

he has made the notion of consensus of a dirty word in american politics. >> host: the other fact is people fund raiser on this. does this well. now you have democrat going on fox and republicans not that often anywhere else. cnn is struggling to find its way. >> guest: as a reporter who believes in this idea that you can god in us question on whether the story takes you is where you go. i think unfortunately one of the legacies is that journalism has now been fully to advance whatever your partisan agenda is on the left and right. perhaps my book what size that. it will encourage people to have more of a central clearinghouse where journalists can report the facts about politicians debate

them. journalists have not supposed to be existing website or the other. >> host: i hope that's true. thank you very much, gabriel sherman. >> guest: thank you for having me. >> you are watching the tv on c-span2. here is their primetime lineup for tonight.

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