rubenfeld and their latest book, "the triple package: how three unlikely traits explain the rise and fall of cultural groups in america." and that, they argue the most successful ethnic groups in america have all had to use one of three characteristics that constitute the triple package. superiority come in security and impulse control. they also say that despite the respect and success of the groups, all three traits have a dark side that should be avoided. this program is about an hour. >> host: amy chua and jed rubenfeld, what is the triple package and where do i get it? >> guest: the triple package is in reference to three qualities or three aliment that in combination propel individuals and certain groups to disproportionate success to find a certain way. the three elements of the triple

package our first defense of exception nowadays and you can get it from lots of different races, but it's a feeling that you're special and destined for special things. the second element is almost seemingly the opposite and that is a dash of insecurity to the exception à la the end of the feeling quite done and are not quite good enough yet. the third element is impulse control or self-discipline and the ability to persevere and resist temptation. it's really the interplay between those first two qualities that kiss at the crux of the book. you know, how does somebody simultaneously feel insecure in superior? we think that is what precisely generates drive and this feeling like i need to show the world. i need to show other people. i need to prove myself. >> what is the third impulse

control? >> that allows you to be able to do it. you can have all the drives and hunger, but if you aren't trained or don't have the ability to hang in there and persist, even very driven people tend to give out. >> is very precise volumetric reading of each of these quakes use the word -- a second ago for the sense of inferiority. are they equally balanced? >> guest: we haven't developed a metric yet that would let us measure. it's a great question now. what we do think from our research is if you pile on too much at any one of the elements, produces bad results. this will be discussed in the talk the pathologies triple package can bring with it. it does seem you need some kind of balance, but we have not figured out how to precisely measure it yet.

>> it's an original hypothesis. i think it has enormous explanatory power for the groups that have been to be doing well right now and for individuals. people who are very, very driven. of course we haven't been able to test it in our laboratory. we don't know how to tai chi did exactly. that's the point of the book. we offer it as a new way to think about success. its dark side and psychological underpinnings. we have a whole chapter on pathology which essentially fear too much of one or the other, it kind of doesn't work in really bad things happening. even when they all are working together as the ascension of achievement that has its own pathology. postcode talk about what kind of success you see coming out of the triple package. just go sure. of all, just a treachery race and possible misunderstandings, we do not define success as material wealth.

the definition of success as far as i'm concerned is simple. success means achieving your goals, whatever they are. we focus a conventional mention of success like income, educational achieve in in the first six chapters about the get the reason for that if it is an important goal for many people. we do say however in the last two chapters that that kind of success is extremely narrow. two, we think the triple package element actually can assist people in power then to achieve any success, not be purely material. in fact come as individuals who have these qualities grow up in america, and they tend predictably second-generation to have that kind of interest in creative destruction relationship between their culture and american cultures such the second-generation kids in immigrant communities start very typically looking back at

their parents and grandparents generation insane we don't want to be successfully told us do. were not interested in those jobs he said were the only ones. instead, they make the decisions to be a standup comic or artist or something like that. yet what we found is aspirational at least the same qualities can help them do that and achieve very different kinds of goals. >> host: let's talk about the part of the book i think has been most controversial and people are talking about most, which is your identification of particular groups has been an argument that the triple package. talk about which groups he identified and how that triple package manifests itself in their success. >> guest: okay, so this is a snapshot. that's part of the problem is people are saved eight groups are better. of course if you look at the title, it's about the rights and all of cultural groups. the groups that are very, very

driven and successful change dramatically over time. different groups 10 years ago. we actually try to be very, very systematic. we relied kind of trade unsent this data. we calculated around figures. at a lot of assistance and were very transparent. what kind of going down the ancestry tables. the census does not identify people by researching. we explain which groups would exclude. for example, in english american category. we weren't sure what that was captured. we have sought the triple package like south african-americans because they were under 100,000. we didn't know what to do at the group of 50 people. i thought we're pretty systematic, went straight down. we elected a groups that were most striking a

disproportionately successful according to these conventional metrics. income, professional attainment, educational attainment. we chose those metrics because they're available. very they are difficult to measure artistic success. although in our section, most of our focus is on artistic and all kinds of different -- >> host: can i stop you for a second. six of the groups to identify your groups that are more men's and jewish or not. >> guest: those elected alternative measures in places like the pew foundation independent researchers put together income data and reset the state don't quite match up. we tried to be pretty systematic and is pretty transparent. as we discussed, they actually don't have that disproportionally high median household in kind and day, for one thing, when you talk about

households, a much larger percentage of women do not work. double the women are described as housewives. we actually chose a group because i think it may be the most upwardly mobile group in america. the rates, statistics 30 years ago you could barely find a mormon and we laid out the different axes of their achievement right now, including business schools and law schools, professional schools. so those are different categories. so we ended up looking that more men's and jews and going down. iranian americans, chinese americans -- that seek to borosilicate nigerian americans

and cuban-americans and we also explained, they are extreme outliers for their population groups and also very high rates of upward mobility in very, very strong educational performance. as the sake, we could looked to japanese-americans. he could have gone down -- further down the list. at their space limitations elected a groups. >> host: pick one of your groups paired with your favorite group? >> guest: we could talk about the mormons. >> host: how do we see the triple package in action with more men's and particular? >> guest: this remarkable fact many people sense that we really documented several groups that are really outperforming the national average in terms of an common educational achievement. we just went to the ones we focused on. we identified those independently as rigorously as we could. then we started looking at the

groups, wondering come asking ourselves if are going to find many cultural commonality. before i get to the mormons, why look for cultural commonalities? lightness of the something else might explain the success? afula talk about alternative explanations later. in a nutshell if you look at something like asian-american, academic success can instantly struck if you do your homework in the researches are finding that their generation come asian-americans are outperforming for a asian-americans overall score 140 points higher on average than the rest of the country and yet their generation don't. disproving that is biological. interacting this discourse in stereotype, showing their something cultural going on in those groups in the families. so that's our starting point because ruling out alternative explanations there something going on in the culture.

and sure enough we found -- we didn't expect to. startling commonalities. they have this chosen people narrative that is borrowed from the jewish experience. they have their moses, exodus. it's also inherited from american puritans. an interesting combination of these two histories piece of joseph smith when he found smarminess and really thinks he has discovered a new religion and his followers believe they've been sent to her to redeem christian church in mankind and moreover today they believe their way of life is morally superior and the words that are used in one of the leading discussions of mormon culture as they see themselves as the island of orality or a sea of decay. they have a strong sense of cents now the recall superiority. in security is fascinating. they deeply feel a sense of

rejection, a sense of not being worked on is fully american. they noted that but time as a cold group from a hundred years ago. there is vilified because of their practices polygamy. for decades they have felt on the outside and the fact they had to hear mitt romney sounds described as creepy because they were so clean cut as an example and they'll talk about that in the field and this will be their worst. this is described in their own autobiographies. >> guest: persecution, too. they were hunted down and chased across the country. so they tell themselves this whole story of insecurity, which is a matter of peril and being looked down upon. they'll say words like we feel a chip on the shoulder. we have to prove ourselves we can be just as big rent tuxedos americans and they seem to be

motivated by that combination of this exception now the living in a society where they have this outside persecuted relationship and final impulse control. it strikes you in the face with a look at the. they practice practices and habits of impulse control different from mainstream americans. these are well-known. they don't smoke. they don't drink. they don't drink caffeine or soda and they start doing this with their kids in this or not to be extremely relevant to her finding. they don't suddenly start this when you're adults. they start these habits of impulse control what their kids from preschool. they give them banks were they have to tie up. they have to pay 10% away. they start them on practices of having to go to church. still from the very early age. by the time they teenagers, mormon kids don't smoke as much,

dr. to. it's not stereotype. it seems to be a matter of fact. all three elements are present in the case. >> host: what is the beneficiary presold terms of income for success? what is the outcome? >> guest: as with all the groups we look back, the mormons are experiencing exceptional rates of upward mobility. now we can demonstrate that for some of the other groups for certain kinds of statistical data. what is so striking about it is i worked on wall street 40 years ago and i remember very well that it was difficult to find a mormon on wall street. he didn't find in the corporate boardrooms much either. in the last 30 years now today they are powerhouses in some of america's best recognize corporations that american express, citigroup, fisher-price, sears, hudson and many, many others.

jet blue, the list actually goes on. so we have the three we are talking about. extraordinary seven record of success and then of course we have a causal hypothesis that these traits are causing through motivation and drive, which by the way our accounts can deliver and know all countries other groups can. >> host: let's talk a little bit about -- he talked about excluding other explanations. some criticize your book say setting aside more men's and jews for a second model yogurt and backend, what you've identified a secure eristic striping of immigrants in the recent decline in third-generation chinese-american insist they are no longer engaged in an great struggle. they are self-selected to be ambitious and hard-working and anyone who makes a journey that card is of course going to have that in them and convey a lot of that to their children.

talk about why the triple package is not immigration. >> guest: that part we are sympathetic to. i don't see why that's a critique. i think that most accounts a success, with the talk about individual successor group accounts, what they miss is drive. so say you're born wealthy. of course people were born wealthy. we totally agree with that. the explanations are you just came, you are the children of educated immigrants. that's a big part of our book. of course that gives you an advantage. what is missing is motivation. you know, the most educated group had the most networks and we are not the first people to say the 40, 50, 60s, not only do they lack the drive, it was to be striving in this hunger. to answer your question, there are two types of self-selection

hypotheses when putting aside her two most important cases, the jews and the mormon, the idea that the only immigrants to our succeeded right now are the ones that come over with education, with the scales. that unfortunately is just not true. as a politically correct explanation, which is that we don't have to look in the cultures because it's all for your parents are. it's definitely big deal with groups like indian americans, cuban-americans. but it is not, for example, true but chinese-americans. these findings are replicated not just in the united states, l.a., but toronto in the u.k. over and over, and the studies show the children of totally uneducated chinese, korean or vietnamese immigrants and these are people whose parents

sometimes obliterate. factory workers, restaurant workers, taxicab drivers are raising academically faster than counterparts and they are hitting it out of the park with these test scores. that is the part that is hard to get traction on because of course we acknowledge that if you're the child of a software engineer that you have a leg to. but this other piece that is so fascinating and even when you're talking about cuban-americans, people want to say they came over with education. actually, there was only a third of the first wave. let's just say the whole pile came over. what is missing from most accounts is the mechanism. how does the first-generation of immigrants, unfair that in a crowded place and i have no job because my degree doesn't count here. have to work as a janitor or a fruit picker. how does that jive with

education, whatever you want colic, that human capital get transmitted to the next generation? we agree that it helps to be an immigrant and that most immigrants who come here actually think -- this is of any background. el salvador, sudan. i think refugees disproportionally have the triple package on an individual level. the question is how do you convey this trace to the next generation? that is for the drive comes in. >> host: there's no reason to think there would be people in poverty in india were lazy and not working hard and absent a triple package? your book doesn't try to say that india should be the most wealthy unders because indian americans are doing well? >> now, that's backwards. >> guest: this is not a book that makes comparison between

countries. we don't say indian culture, whatever that might be odd to admit india more prosperous country. the best thing i know that you compare since her why they failed to claim its institutions are fundamental a functioning free market with the color protections and inclusivity as well as political inclusivity. that is what makes nations less prosperous. american institutions in combination with cultural traits that allow people to succeed in the country. it's not the institutions may seem in india or cuba obviously. it is a great question because it clarifies how we are using culture. we are not talking about the essentialist hinduism or five gazetteer confucianism. it's the interaction of people. they come over strong middle kingdom identity.

chinese have a strong sense of exceptionalism. but once you come to this country, that is all mixed up. you're an outsider, a funny accent. is this dynamic play. >> host: okay can be yours for it can explain. it can explain morgan's success, jewish success. these are two big cases in our book. in addition to that, to ideas of immigrants. coming overtired levels of education. one is more bold, war but a faded. let's look at the education and skills. turns out over half of chinese immigrants do not go in just half of indian immigrants do not come over. we have a this stereotype in ahead of his coming over. this community has been well studied. they are mostly poor and very poorly educated.

as a large community of people who have gone and done the research. those immigrants are doing just as well is the case of the other immigrants which is odd. -- chasseurs not the parental backgrounds. more important for our purposes, doing better and are better educated and off. that's overlooking a period one of these groups doing that are than the national average, the white average? and from families high on associate economic level, we are not saying they are doing better than this other group that is persistently low in a group in america. that is not a problem we're trying to solve. we are asking how come they are doing better and better educated kids who come from a better place. it's got to be something in the culture. >> host: you are focusing the upside, the positive success story. their plan of immigrant groups not doing as well as

chinese-americans fire. so what is a group if you look is not doing well. >> guest: well, actually, we look at some of the most disadvantaged groups in our book. i think we are pretty -- it like on the first page we are saying this has nothing to do with the triple package. >> host: i want an immigrant group. what is an immigrant group not doing well? >> guest: there are many refugee groups coming out very. obviously they come over with nothing and so i will just say sudan for the hmong are a very, important group. you know -- >> host: why are hmong income level in educational achievement low? >> guest: is a snapshot. we are looking -- some of these groups honestly that are very poor right now in my generation will rise disproportionately.

i do. we have to work with refugee groups in new haven. i see these qualities. first of all, institutional problems. some of them can't get a job. so there's all these things that have nothing to do with how hard they've worked. it's discrimination sometimes. if you were asking me why are some of them not at the highest levels of income, some people have had their entire families killed. they are working and working. i believe if we can track it, they'll have a disproportionate success. it's a snapshot of time. if you look at the poorest income groups they are war refugees in people come through civil conflict and all kinds of historical reasons. >> host: i think one question i had about the books are thinking about to the charles murray elk grove controversy,

which i'm sure you remember vividly in how tense that was. everyone got up saturday thing because they were trying to the college i behavior groups. you know, i think it is great you are picking up things that are successful. i worry without looking at the other side you are kind of cherry-picking the good stuff. so i want to know, but make it if? if you had to write the opposite book, where would the opposite book land? >> guest: is a totally fair question. as we all know, the hypothesis was an i.q. hypothesis. we refute that in the book. it's be very clear. third-generation asian-americans which undercuts the i.q. hypothesis. people a steady chinese-americans. they've done the i.q. studies and may find that the i.q. is not different. so we look at that. the book excludes, in my view,

pernicious i.q. explanation, which is unfounded. we look at the ominous, a group that's poor, try to show how they don't have the triple package. we look at appellations. we try to show how they don't have the triple package. i think if you're interested, studies that compare mexican-american immigrant communities in los angeles with some of the east asian communities in los angeles. we look a little bit at that. our book is not about by mexican-americans aren't as successful. many of them assimilate into the culture and group which has been for 200 or more years in this country said it to discrimination, second-class citizenship from its massive opportunity, exclusion, many reasons why some immigrant groups who do not face and don't

get assimilated into a group of that history and is continuing structural problems -- there are many reasons for asian-americans may be doing it at the net. that would not be so shocking. what is much more interesting as these groups to better the national average. that's what we're trying to explain. if you look at studies, they will tell you very careful studies the latino american kids in l.a. from immigrant communities are not raised at the same high academic expectations. we cite the studies in our book. what i expectations? actually capture two elements. the expectation is on the one hand. so the kids come away and you can outperform the rest of your classmates. you're capable of it. that's a superiority complex. the expert patient and insecurity could do that don't disappoint us. you're going to fail

expectations. don't embarrass her family. this kind of careful, cultural analysis and conclude the attacks were haitians are actually doing some of the work causally in producing success. it's not a defining if this goes back 40 or 50 years am i going into groups that are more successful in discovering time after time the high expectations are driving. forgot to add one more point. if what we do in this book is capturing the integrate experience and the interesting phenomenon of check second-generation success in her generation declined comment that would be exactly what we're trying to do because no alternative explanation can capture that. they can't explain second-generation success in her generation declined. not these of a structural problems, all of which exist. they can expand the phenomenon,

which sociologists founded virtually every amick at group. this goes back a hundred years. the second-generation decline after that. our explanation is the only one i know if it captures that perfect day. >> host: i want to go back to your question about what is the negative? i think this gets at some of the misunderstanding. if we were talking about a cultural trait is exclusive to to somebody with history, that would be -- i would disagree with that, too. especially when you talk about impulse control, and behaviors that anybody can access. so you know, our biggest supporters actually have been public-school educators. one example, you know, a schoolteacher from southern california sabatino, public high school teacher. i can't believe this. i think about culture and class all the time and i see with my own eyes that these asian

immigrant kids have said he had the deadly to other grades. i told my son were going to replicate that. he's a straight a student. to me it is almost more to the name to not talk about this. if you say the reason -- the only reason to groups did better than others is asked her most things. it's all discrimination because he came over with human capital. literally, what is to eliminate discrimination, which by the way should be a first priority. but that leaves people with no agency. we get e-mails saying biased or not a level playing field? it's incredibly unfair. we want to change the world two. we also want to know what we can do in our own families. this is useful for us to talk about our study habits are different mentalities.

the most interesting study in the whole book is what i call the reverse marshmallow test. everybody knows that the marshmallow test at stanford for you do one marshmallow now or two if you read 15 minutes. the people with the gratification thirty-year satyr wildly more successful in terms of happiness, stability, income, education. last year they ran the test again at the university of rochester. but first they did a new twist. they like to have the kids. they told have tickets for us if you do this we would give you these cool art supplies. and then they broke their promise. and then they ran the marshmallow test. everyone of the kids would like to grab the first marshmallow. to me this goes right to your question because it is i believe that case of many poor groups were talking about, if the society has let you down, and that is you do not believe you can trust your institutions.

you don't think if you work hard at deferred gratification you're actually going to be reworded, then there's no incentive to do this. i think he should put that together with the triple package. i was talking to some students and education and they are saying teachers at the high school in grade school level should know and be trained at some immigrants work so hard to believe in the promise that the institutions. so why can't we build these ideas and, taken acknowledge success. for a lot of these people it's almost a luxury to be debating that successfully means. you know, bill benson some of these different frameworks and mentalities and levels of confidence in the institution and maybe we can do better with education policy. >> host: this is interesting. all the groups you identify actually do believe in an

american dream in a way that not all americans do, which is interesting. did mormons really want to be part of that? >> guest: and it's happening. they were so persecuted. these are very highly persecuted groups. >> host: they may even exaggerate their belief in the system. they may have exaggerated police and how fair or meritocratic system is and yet there seems to be no doubt in part but necessary part of believing you can make it seems to be an important criteria in success of these groups. >> host: is interesting mormons want to be part -- and that romney wants to run for president at a time when the presidency seems to be a challenge. wanted to be sensing something other americans feel. >> host: run for president as joseph smith did it at the very beginning. one more thing about the same topic, which is site inquiry

might want to ask ourselves, what kind of conversation we should be having it should be able to have on these issues. if you say that you think asian-american kids study habits are responsible are better on the s.a.t., it seems people want to say this cultural racism. it seems that people want to say that's doing it again. if that's the response to that very simple state that, which fact it must be true, i think we have a problem on our hands. we are not able to have a frank conversation and were not able to get the information we need to antipoverty programs, education policy and not to mention many, many families who might want to help their kids. >> guest: where we come back or not is that the case would you be the person that goes into poor african american communities and appalachian tell people you're not studying hard enough.

you don't have impulse control and you have a sense of superiority. >> guest: definitely not. the supports non-us personally, but the whole thesis supports early childhood intervention. these programs that were great ones in new haven. it is essentially you're been a little facetious, but it is about is to inculcate not just children. a single-payer, grand parent with the sense of actually motivation and long-term perseverance her day was -- not many things that early childhood intervention programs. for not trying to make it seem really easy. it is just against the history of so little success in education and antipoverty, it's almost like white tie your hands behind your back? is talk about success in that romney and i think this is so

interesting. you know, one of the downsides of being from a triple package culture and i grew up the mess so i know is by virtue of the kind of insecurity you have, which is not accepted well enough for sometimes up in the family i need to meet my parents expectations for the mormons case you need to show americans were even better. that can force people into very narrow forms of success that are the types that were being criticized when it's the opposite because we are saying that culture in order to prove to everybody that we are so great we can only be a doctor or later a run for president we has to be on wall street. the younger generations of these groups almost always uniformly feel an unpleasant pressure. so much in the asian-american community where people wanted to break this book because you're

reinforcing. others suggest reading five pages of it because the whole idea is the first generation is too narrow and if you can take some of that focus and apply it to something -- be a standup comic, something that applies to what you care about. the best director and broke back not mistake revolutionary. now you can maybe be an academic. >> host: i want to change gears a little bit and goats you guys. you're a married couple. i'm not sure if the audience knows that. which e.u. has more triple package? which it is better triple package? >> guest: no doubt about that. that would be my wife. >> host: is generational. i doubt anything about you, but i was raised in a paradigmatic

name. my parents gave me a strong sense of sexuality and i think as a shield. when i was little i was in indiana, guys making santi issa may come and making fun of macs that because these serve a chinese accent. i told my mother and she said why do you care? if he was making fun of you, who cares. and a lot of impulse control. you got none of that from your family. >> host: i think what i brought to the table was the insecurity part. just one last point on inner-city education policy. here's the thing. a lot of us all into a trap of a false dichotomy. the false dichotomy is as follows. the right wing wants to say the

institutions are great. the playing field is level. meritocracy works perfectly. every individual perfectly responsible for some outcomes. then you get an extreme polar opposite. it's all about institutions. all about structural problems. all about discrimination. nothing under a desk and make any difference. we has to be grown-up enough to realize it's not one or the other. it's both. many structural reform of inner cities, segregation. mass incarceration to deal with them and need all kinds reform. on the other hand, can we say there's an individual side and educational policies can address those programs we were saying exists. these programs where people go in at the ages of three and four and work with the families. what they're doing is teaching perseverance, motivation, character and an interest in education at school.

they teach all the things that go into if these were triple package groups. two s. that makes perfect sense. i think we can generalize more or as i a memoir. the jewish case is fascinating and a very good case into triple package because it's no longer an immigrant group. if you ask people at other theories, people never want to talk about the jews because it gets biological. i think our second element, insecurity coupled with exceptionalism goes a long way. you were joking about the insecurity, but okay, this is a group that had the holocaust intervened in 1945. you have this part of history. >> guest: if your going amick they talk about myself, yes. i saw this with my own father.

my countess better explaining jewish in america. people believe it's ip-based. those studies are not believable, so if what we are saying, is this a group that replenishes insecurity over the generations? that would be the surprise that might make an exception to the usual story of generational decline. i was just saying this a grandfather. my grandfather was a poor preacher. it's a long time ago. my father should be getting more comfortable. he should be getting more relaxed according to the normal generational decline. all of a sudden when he's about 12 or 13, the holocaust happens. this happens for a whole generation of jews he should be comfortable and pass the decline story onto their kids. instead they have a holocaust. if anything could revive a sense

of insecurity and a group obviously would be done. israel come much for another later generation and anti-semitism to identify with israel, even though they're americans, they worry about what happens there. i think there is -- jews say this to each other. this is nervousness in anxiety. in that scene ahead of myself, but i think it's widespread. >> host: i don't want to belabor this jewish question because i love it. are we headed -- are they going to be the huguenots in a generation? i don't have any deep sense of insecurity that anyone is coming for me. i'm not worrying a lot about israel. so is as likely that whatever cultural -- whatever s. god is going to dissipate in a

children? >> guest: we do raise that possibility. in our book there have been studies recently suggesting for the first time jewish academic decline. we don't know if that's going to translate into lower incomes or other kinds of non-success and some typical decline story. but for the first time we're jews is to outperform everybody in terms of academic competitions are not doing anymore, at least not to the same degree. are you curious yes whereas in the 70s there was a big yom kippur war. now for the first time for attempted jewish americans are more secure in the united states then have been anywhere for the last 2000 years. so at first serious threat, we would predict and expect some decline and there is some evidence suggesting that. >> host: there's other views on this. this was accurate definition of

success because of language barriers, if you look at the accounts in our book in the 19 tens and 1920s, they sound like -- you have to play the piano or violin sonatas because those were the respectable things, right? your for your kids not going to survive. he can't be a poet. but now -- these matchups about vb -- [inaudible] to have a documented thoroughly, but there's other forms of success that jews don't have a language barrier. they are direct the movies. they are writing things. transforming environmental transformation. it may not be in olympia anymore. it's a very immigrant teeth kind of thing to do. just take a language, you can

need numbers. >> host: i want to go back to you right now. amy, you are obviously a very successful, famous and controversial book about your parenting of your daughters. do the triple package come out of that book at all? >> guest: actually, believe it or not we started thinking about this book. in 2008 i taught a seminar -- that focuses on individual groups and nations. at the end of the day the group is about individuals. but we started doing the research, started hiring research assistant and then were essentially interrupted by a global firestorm that after things settled down we started working on again. we started thinking about it before. i've written books about dominant minorities in indonesia and africa. a athanasius in ashburn maryland versus successful minority since

2000. >> host: how did you divide the work? who did the work? >> guest: i and the disciplined,, you know, aunt. i managed out the research. i love culture. i love digging into all of the source says in amassing the research. he said in a person. we never had to see each other. i would say we have the exact opposite personalities and skills. >> host: and the worst person in the world at taking criticism so i would do some writing, she would add it in the next thing books are being thrown at each other in the household. i think it was actually quite an even distribution. we both did writing. reposted editing. you managed out the research assistants, absolutely true. postcard very interested in the facts. jed's interest in the analytic

framework. we interacted. we always interact. as to what i enjoy doing, i'm the one that says i need to get every book ever written on the amish and put together studies. it was pretty interactive jokes aside. how do we go about this systematically? does kind of what is the organization, what is the point going to be? >> guest: i've been writing for almost 20 years about america in this interesting development american history and culture and a society that has got more and more interested in living in the present. you see fred psychology to art and it's relevance to this the. >> host: the future or the past? >> guest: either. it is one of things coulter does. orient people and times. some ask their members to

generate. some generate themselves to receive future of some kind. some tall members who got to live in the now. it's a juicy development in western cultures that live in the present has become more and more appealing to people. the connection between that and this book is one of the things triple package seems to do this turn people into deferred gratification machines and that is what runs up against american culture. as a combination of those two interests, successful minorities in american culture to live in the moment. >> host: but it matches studies criticizing the been in a moment. we all want to see a moment. one of my favorite parts in the book that never comes up is the constitutional law party but at the end judges constitutional law. our two foundational documents, declaration of independence and constitution have completely different impulses.

it's about pursuit of happiness. it's a rebellious document in your view on the constitution is. >> guest: is an interesting time in american history. declaration of independence, pursuit of happiness, but as they live in the moment kind of document. jefferson who wrote it didn't believe in constitutions because constitutions attempt to restrain people. it is an attempt by people to hide hanssen for 20 years, 50 years you can't violate these rights. you can extend your powers more than -- that's what the whole constitutional structures. jefferson didn't believe because he thought it's more like triple package share of the debt ration being more of a live the moment, having more of a live in the moment mentality. the rebellious live in the moment area but this triple package work make more money. the security of the individual

is sound then you knew that america creates. suddenly every man, every individual is measured success or failure based on economic success. also at this american rebelliousness, individualism, the analysis in the last chapter of the book. >> host: i'm not fixated on the question of whether we are looking forward at the moment. one thing striking to me if you look at the tea party movement in particular, there's a kind of extreme american political thinking on the right, which is within 50 years ago for 100 years ago. what happens when you get hung up on that? it's like a victim ologies theory that you get wrapped up in the past and you can't go forward? >> guest: according to what we are saying, there should be two kinds of pathologies.

one living in the past into living to mention much in the present moment. what is more productive for prosperity and achieving long-term goals is to have the wherewithal and the outlook to look forward with your life, to decide what you want to live for, write your own script and have the wherewithal to go present satisfaction in the name -- and the service of achieving the long-term goal. that would be botched up by getting hung up in the past, which was first definition of mental illness or been too much interested in immediate gratification are living in the present. >> host: talk a little bit about the amish. there's a great example of the book of a culture, which is a strong culture, which has a lot of strength, but not traditional success. casca without this case because it highlights how we are using our terms.

the amish have the most impulse control about any group in america. no electricity, just so many from early on the children can't read fairytales. so they know they have impulse control. whether or not they have a superiority complex, he asked and they say absolutely not. we believe in humility. thus the high-mindedness. we touch on some of fatefully whether or not it could be a superiority based on the most interesting thing is insecurity. were talking about insecurity in the sense within a system. i have driven myself to people to others here. whether it's in my family or society in precise we the amish live by is their creed if we don't accept the modern world's

values, we don't want our whole feel they need to strive into a society demands for 60 msas because we reject those values. they don't have -- but only to did not have insecurity as we define it, their religion is based on that and the result is there's a fascinating section or some other the kids i played little league baseball and that's fine until some of them start singing like they want to win. they can be competitive. for obvious reasons they are among the poorest groups because they don't want to be successful in that way. >> host: it's interesting because there's certain schedules the amish cultures considered in full. if you like a delete white protestant society at a certain kind of place, strain it was not in full but at some and that you wouldn't want to show that you

are interested in claiming. >> host: the original work ethic. >> host: kentucky mid-20th century. but we are saying is they lack the elements of insecurity as we define it. the amish are teaching their kids to find security in their faith and their traditional practices. so here's an insecurity is your feeling you're not us. you have to do more. they teach their kids no, you should feel good enough for the simple things we have. similarly, but in a different way of privileged whites in america. aristocratic waits to strive. don't feel you have to prove yourself. that would be embarrassing. you see in both cases, and factor were just reading something about eden.

just got even lots of impulse control remain of exercise. no insecurity. according to the article, no rising from where they started. they start off wealthy and that stay that way. it's described as a favorite review. >> host: was close by talking about the united states. you've touched on in a three-story historical document. are you both seem worried that we were more a triple package nation and for a variety priest as we talked about. is that possible? it sounds like groups and individuals. do you define yourself in to something. it's kind of an experiment by we do save some ways it was blowing

that these three elements. everybody knows about the american exceptionalism. we have the best instead. we always had the insecurity of being underdogs. you look down by european ict show ourselves the soviet union in the puritan origins of impulse control. but it's always been this airplay of rebelliousness and questioning authority which makes america what it is. you have these rules of immigrants that come in with a lot of triple package elements. in a good way, some of that gets exploded out and you have new energy so not everybody is working all the time. what we say in the end of the book is after the soviet union, for the first time in our entire history of the vietnam war rifle and maybe we were left with major superiority complex at the

expense of the other two. as we say, it is better when the spirit of complex has massive problems anyway is tempered by a little bit of needing to prove yourself. >> host: the first question would be which he won a country to have the triple package? that's a serious question and requires an intelligent man who before you decide really what our country to have it. they may country do terrible things, people do terrible things. america has available to any sense of exception i'll be based on equality, democracy, please submit it back to be the basis of an american superiority complex for you. in terms of insecurity in impulse control, i think i would be willing to say americans could use a dose more of impulse control. so many domains you could identify the problem of the

national debt, inability to stop our week even though we threw this huge debt on the shoulders of the next generations or obesity or whatever it is. in security, i think there is a good argument to be made that people do better in times of adversity. maybe there is a kind of perverse coming in now, silver lining to some of the financial and political military problems we've had over the last 10 years. >> guest: is going to say we are exercising impulse control. >> guest: china right now is a good example of a country that describes a strong sense of superiority. we have been humiliated by the west. that's nice for us. that's what happens. >> host: amy chua, jed

rubenfeld, thank you for us to talk about "the triple package." >> guest: thank you very much. >> here's a look at works being published this week.