>> that so cool. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. [applause] >> thank-you all for coming. >> coming up tonight on c-span2, the communicator's examine wireless infrastructure. setting an 830 eastern book tv and prime-time features books on u.s. relations with russia. first with edward lucas, then berman. ..

>> guest: the demands the consumer are placing on the legislation. >> host: what are issues you agencies is focused on? >> guest: we trying to build out the networks. sometimes there are leaking issues and sometimes federal rules that affect how we deploy or the impact on historic sights or the environment. we want to be sensitive to those issues, but we want to move forward on deployment as well because these customers depend on having a good, strong connection and getting the data

wherever they are. >> host: the spectrum auction; big deal? >> guest: they are a very big deal. there is not enough spectrum going forward for the demand. cisco found there is going to be an eight fold increase in the amount of data travelling over the networks. how do you deal with that is the question. there are three levers we use to meet the demands. they use spectrum and they need more. they can use technology move to forth generation because it is more efficient and travels over the same spectrum and the third level is infrastructure which is what delivers that out there. the spectrum auction is necessarily because it takes many years once spectrum is

allocated to take that data off existing frequencies and on to new ones because we need to change out the handsets people are using and that hands over a year. some are using 3g handset and some 2g voice-only feature phones. so even if spectrum is allocated today and they are not allocating it fast enough so haz why we need the auction to happen as soon as possible. chairman wheeler is being careful and trying to move forward quickly, but we are talking about several years before we get help. so the short-term solution is infrastructure and you know you are in trouble with that is your

short-term option because it take as while to build and make it happen. but it can happen quickly. a carrier said we need to denseify the netwerb -- networks -- and build in so they will have antennas next door. they are talking putting small cells in place and distributed antenna system that might go on a crowding space like a shopping mall or stadium. so why looking at constitutions to deal with the fact there is a tsunami of data being demanded and we want to keep up with that. we want our equipment welcome so it can role out and deliver the service the consumers want. >> paul kirby is here.

>> there is a gap right now that would propose as ways to deploy that infrastructure in a more easier fashion and some localities say it would violate zoning law and their sovereignty, if you will,: i wanted to get your response to the rules. >> guest: we would not have this huge system with the towers and antennas if we had not gotten approval from local authorities. what congress said in the law they enacted in 2012 as part of the broader piece of spectrum legislation was they want to make broadbrand a national priority. we are asking for, in this ru

rulemakirul rulemaking that the affordable care act is looking at, is let's have localities join and they are seeing the importance of broadbrand in these situations. six states have enacted to streamline broadland deployment. we assume the fcc will do the same. there is a lot of reasons for this. we issued a study and people talk about the economic benefits of broadbrand and we said let's put a pen to paper and put a number on it. our companies are making huge investments for capital

expenditures. $35 million a year each year they are investing in infrastructure building this things out. what does that mean? that small investment has impact on the economy in a dispor porti portionate. it is changing how education is taught and all of these things are made possible by wireless broadbrand. it turns out we expect if they allow us to make these investments there is going to be 1.3 trillion additional gdp as result of these wireless investments. that is 1.3 million jobs at a time when we don't have enough

and that is not just the wireless industry, people adding. it takes away from jobs because you might not have many toll operators but let's see if we can sub out the jobs that are loss. >> one of the proposals the industry favored is a few years ago the fcc adopted the shot clock rules saying localities have to act on projects by a certain time and the industry said if they don't do, it should be deemed granted. why is this necessary? >> congress saw in this law in 2012 they passed, if an application is made, it must

must be approved. and that is congress. when you are changing out the existing equipment, you might have one that at&t is on but t-mobile wants to be on that tower. why not let them go on? that should not required a new zoning area because the tower was zoned. the president set a goal of 98% of the country having broadbrand by 2016 and we are asking the fcc to interupt there is no room for delay. >> you mentioned antenna systems and they are not the full towers people are used to seeing. why is it necessarily for the fcc to adopt rules on what those systems are? >> these systems are smalling by

definition. they don't take up the space of a 200 foot tower and shouldn't be subject to the same rules. the fact is the macrosystem of towers is going to be the backbone of the network. but there is a need to fill in spaces where there is extra demand; inside a stadium in a busy urban corridor where they want small cells to target the capacity to where people are using their devices and drawing down data. but if the same requirements go to each node on the antenna system, it will slow the process down and kill the business model. this is expensive building these networks out and the fact they are forced to do this because there is not enough spectrum is something we are seeing. but you can break the back of the business model if it ends up

costing the same amount in term of regulatory compliance as it does building the same regular tower. they cannot be subject to the same hurdles because it will not work. take the example of utility poles. you can put a device on there and they go through regulatory review, it was a transformer that the electric company that owns the pole was putting up. there is none of these reviews because it is different. but the small cell would be smaller than a transformer and because it is what it is it has to go through additional regulatory hurdles. we are saying let's streamline the process, making sure the bas bas

basis --bases -- are covered and they are going to run into issue if we don't streamline the process. the fcc totally gets that and is working with us. >> host: >> host: you talk about streamlining. is that something congress acts on or locality? >> this is federal and local and how they look at the small cell versus the large cell. there are acts that apply and the question is how do you streamline so the fcc isn't caught up it takes forever for the efforts to be deployed. if that happens, it will get slowed down too much. there is no time to wait. congress, the president, fcc, is saying we need to get these

built quilckly. if we are throwing dents in each node, it is going to take forever and kill the business model. that is why we are looking at streamlining federal and state and local regulations. >> host: do you face nimby, never in my backyard, issues? >> guest: we do. we are seeing yes, in my backyard as well, though. young people are cutting the cord. most young folks don't even have a wireline phone anymore and 40% of americans don't use a line. so one of their must have is

wireless service. it is important for property value. my kids have to have their broadbra broadbrand. what about that? the attitude is shifting. people are welcoming these. there are people that don't want it in their backyard. but that is why we are responding and trying to build small systems and build where there is demand. we can hide and do stealth techniques to make things blend into the environment more but in the end we have to build more networks and infrastructure. people are beginning to get that. >> another issue the industry always faced is an init -- initiative -- some localities

try to get ahold on. how do you counter that? >> guest: i think people do need better education on this. all of the studies show this is safe. but i understand people have concerns. we need address them. the fcc is involved in a study of radio frequencies emissions and what the safety implications are, if any. the fcc protects the public and sets the rules. localities by law, under section 332 of the communication, are not allowed to take this into consideration for local zoning, but do it all of the time. they say don't put it near a school. they are using broadband every day on their i-pads and their

i-phones. that is where we need it. some schools gain revenue by sighting school revenue. understand a soccer mom or dad might not know because it isn't what they do. but once the fcc puts out information to the public from a r source that is reputable, the fcc, as to what is not safe, so the parents feel comfortable. every study is coming back to same way. there are no serious health implications here. i believe we need to get this broadband out. it is something we can do with complete safety. but the public needs to be educated about that. i think understandablely so.

>> tom wheeler has been very active. can you give us a sense of how you think he was done so far and are their issues he wasn't addressed that you would nudge him on? >> guest: i think tom wheeler is the perfect guy for the job. he is a person of integrity, a strategic thinker, bold, thou t thoughtful, and careful and remarkable on how many fronts he is moving. he is able to manage, and draw on the lesson of history and understand we are at a pivotal point in history where we can build this network that will change everything, he gets lof

that. commission commissioner pi is calling for moving quickly and i think chairman wheeler is moving quickly to take strong action and get broadbrand for everyone.

at&t talked about 40,000 small cells and that will place a burden on the fcc. there needs to be adequate resources for compliance. there are a number of issues coming up with an overwhelming number of deployments happening that is making it difficult for the fcc to have day toe d day se can respond to consumer demand to wireless data. this big giant prosode -- proceedings -- but just making sure it is there to get it done. >> so you are concerned -- you think congress, or all of the fcc's budget comes from the fees they assess on licenses, but do

you think congress needs to authorize a greater amount for the fcc? >> i think congress needs to approve the full budget the fcc request. they run lean. it is appropriate for congress to ask the right question. but when it comes to people responding to native american concerns -- i come from south dakota, indian country, and this can transform reservations but the rules on them are time consuming because of the nature of ownership of land and the trust. >> >> host: where are we in now in the 98% broadband goal?

>> it varies. there are varying numbers. but we are getting there. we would like to get to a hundred percent. some areas are cost prohibitive. but we cannot afford to delay. it is coverage and capacity issue. the president and his team and those in congress on a bipartisan bases get this. in the old days, we were building out in,000 -- 2000 to make sure everyone could get cellphone towers. and now there is no such traffic in the areas that we need more

to infill the networks so we can denseify the networks, split those cells up so you can use the same frequencies over and over again. >> put it on your former fcc commissioner hat, if you would, and put on your infrastructure hat, sprint/tsprint/t-mobile me. what do you think? >> guest: it is something we with watching out. there has been different signals sent out about it. >> the house is looking to update the communication acts and it is expected to take years. what would you advise them?

would you recommend other things for them to take on legislatively? >> guest: we have seen generations of new technology since this was written. they are going about it the right way to make new one. they are doing analysis and preparing the way about where they are going to head and where the holes are. 5g and 6g networks are coming and one thing the communication act might be revised to consider is tech ntechnilogical neutrali.

why is wireless held to a higher standard. let's try to get it out. we should encourage wireless broadband at every stage of deployment and we are excited to engage with them and figure out how we deal with the big changes that come with the amount of data we are seeing demanded by the consumer. it will take a long period of time. they don't happen in one congress. it will take several congress to get it done. but the time to begin as leadership in the house indicated is under way. >> the first responder network would be a nationwide public safety broadband.

they don't have much money so they want to partner with the private sector because you said there are hundreds of towers out there. what are they hoping for from the first net network. >> the first net network is long overdue. i worked on this before and we failed to allocate the spectrum that was called the d-block that was allocated for public safety in a way that it could work. after 9/11 the priority was let's make sure first responders have access to communication they need. we sent hundreds of firefighters into the building for their death and it was a tragedy and much of it could have been avoided with proper communications. we cannot let that happen again. so it is essential first net

succeed. our members with repair today do everything we can to give the first responders a network that is second to none. $7 billion is a good down payment. congress required they work with existing assets and infrastructure to the degree possible and there is a great, you know, network of existing infrastructure that they can site on about how they can set up their existing provider and they will have to rely on the infrastructure that exist and our members are ready and anxioanxio excited to see this succeed. we want to make sure when the firefighter goes in the building

he gets home to see his kid that night. >> host: should the net nutrality rules apply to wireless networks as well? >> guest: we have not seen complaints about the way they are set up. people are charged more for the amount of data they use. it is like any other service. it is uncapped as well. these are things that worker well. the carriers have to manage their networks and network management is more complex because there is more constraints in wireless networks than wireline networks. they need to move things around so they can optimize the use of the wireless network and the spectrum.

so it is very tricky in wireless in how you do that. all of our carriers believe in an open internet. there are no concerns as far as wireless that are serious about how they are conducting business. consumers are thrilled they can use any app they want on their device as long as they are legal. >> another issue is positive training control. congress is requiring railroads to deploy 20,000 antennas, wayside units, and they are looking to do them in batches. the tribes and state historic officers are concerned saying this will not give them enough

say to ensure culture and historic resources are protected. what should the fcc do or shouldn't do help that? >> guest: this is required by congress to protect the safety of the public so that trains can be controlled. it is huge undertaking and a lot go through native lands but that is compared to the other things we are engaged in. the fcc is trying to figure out a way to streamline this and they need to because they don't have the resources to go through

all of the land. they have been plowed over for years and in some cases centuries. so we are streamlining all of the other issues and that is why they need to do this quickly. the more they can get out of the w way, the more they focused on those things. we have a number of wireless facilities that need to be addressed and it will take a while to get it done, we cannot

afford to have a lengthy process or we cannot get it done. when first net starts to deploy, it will be stuck. we have safety towers out of compliance that need to be fixed. there are a lot of day-to-day issues the fcc needs to go after and i am sure they will. >> host: thank you for being on the "the communicators" >> on tuesday, the free state foundation will hold a conference on telecom policy. representatives from comcast and verizon join fcc commissionersism live coverage starting at 9 a.m. eastern on

c-span 2. coming up next here on c-span 2. booktv in prime time featuring books on russian relations. first, edward lucas and "the new cold war". >> washington journal live every morning at 7 a.m. with the days

headlines, calls tweets and facebook comments. for st. patrick's day we turn to the video library to see how the united states presidents mark the holiday. >> depite all of this, tip wanted me here. he said since it was march 17 it was only fitting that someone drop by who actually had known st. patrick. and that is true, tip, i did know st. patrick. in fact, we changed to the same political party at about the same time. >> once you had a glass of gu guinness with a man in ireland, you are friends.

>> more than 35 million americans claim irish ancestry and america is richer than every 'sullivan -- i should have said mccain. [ applause ] >> well, i just did. >> hap happy st. patrick's day

everyone. >> edward lucas is here to discuss his book "the new cold war." this event is from 2008. it is about 90 minutes. >> he has been covering the region for more than 20 years and witnessing the final years of the cold war fall and the collapse of the soviet empire. the downfall of borris and vladimer putin's rise to power. he was the managing editor for a

"discover magazine," and a correspondent for a london station and worked for a bbc as a journalist. he has a bs from the london school of economics. mr. lucas is the author of a new book entitled "the new cold war" which he is going to talk about this afternoon. >> thank you very much for that gracious introduction for and thank you raidio liberty for letting me talk here. i have very fond memories of

this station from when i lived in the czech republic. so it is great privilege to be here. i want to start off by making it clear that perhaps something particularly important about the last cold war. i am not saying in my book that the old car war is coming back. it was a global conflict, sharp ideaological and there was confrontation. we are not worried about russian tanks giving us the choice of going nuclear or surrender. and i am not saying everything is good. and that mr. putin took over and

re-created the soviet union. that is not the case. but it sporois important to not. and if is important. consequence of the chaos and non-certainty and dislocation of these years. and i want to make it clear this book isn't part of what we might call the boo chorus who are paid to say everything is bad. he pays a lot of money to finance and seminar and conferences and studies that

prove putin is a monster. and there is a man whose name begins with k and he lives in confinement in sibeera and a lot of the money goes toward painting a black picture of putin. i agree with some of the criticism. but i regard the worst aspects of putinism coming from what was developed into the 1990's. moving on to the main thesis of the book which is the huge losses of putin of freedom and locality. you can summarize them as constraint and readdress. in any society of any kind, there is going to be the danger that the weak will get pushed

out of the way. we have mechanisms to make sure that will not happen. we have the free media. we have mgo's and the individuals right to free speech and so on. so it is history under putin these have been sis systemat systematically destroyed. let's start with the elections. i refuse to use the words coming up from russia where the votes will be cast but the choice isn't there. we have a paradox that one of the great russian writers would have loved. an election that is totally predictable. we know who is going to win but it is mystifying because we don't know what it will mean. is the seat staying warm for

putin to return? is he going to play hard to putin? or is the result of some script? is this like "gone with the wind" where people are on the edge of their seat or is this like "casa blanco" we don't know but tit doesn't offer strength. it is easy to criticize russian courts and many people do it. the international bar does it and many others. who was it who said russia was in the state of unparalleled legal nickelism? it wasn't some way out creature of the right wing or washington

think take team. you may say why do we need to worry about this. 80% of russians like putins and we have other thing toes worry about like the war with china, africa, global warming, and who needs another problem. it is certainly true that russia isn't confronting us at every sta stage. we talk about with them about nukes, about north korea and it is true russia is engaged.

but there are two reasons to be worried about what is happening. one is the trojectoajectory and don't want to talk about how disgusting it is you can find on the russian media. if you speak russian, get on you tube and look at the propaganda. the music, images and the ideas. it is poisonous. it is poisoning russian public opinion. every poll is showing the same results. i would like to think they are just crooks. and all of this stuff, this is

all just made up in order to fool the russian people and in fact all they want to do is steal billions of dollars. i am not that optimistic. i think some do believe it. and that is what it is scary. it is changing the russian public opinion and people in part believe this stuff. it is leaking. it is not confined to russia. it leaks to central europe. it leaks to countries that we thought were firmly anchored in the europe atlantic camp. ron howard raised a word that i have not heard since ronald reagan, a rollback. this is us loosing countries we thought gained freedom and democracy and they are coming under the spell of russirussia. i was amazed in how successful

they were at getting into b bulgaria and latvia. i would like to say we are winning, but i can't. i think we are loosing when i travel around. and we are talking about countries inside the europe camp. it goes further west. if i sat here eight years ago and told an audience of europe watchers the severing german chancellor will sign off on an

energy project that would threat threaten the entire region. and that same lead er within weeks of leaving office would then take a lucrative position as chairman of that pipeline. and you would have called security. a you would say this is the west. they took on their audits saying they were okay and when the same companies came under pressure from the crimea, an auditor

would say we said your account were in order but we were wrong. we are seeing an extrodinanormo with russian money. if i showed up in germany with stolen eggs and said i need a bank, a lawyer and a pr firm and i can make money. people pay the police. if you turn up with a stolen oil company, $17 billion stole in daylight, and these pin stripe

gen geniuses are able to spin it and make it look okay. so it is happening here on k-street. it is happening in the city of london. if this was easy to deal with, because communist had a hard sell. but now the first time in history that the police are running thing and they are attacking us with our own money. if we run the society with the belief that only money matters. on that note, i have more to say but will say it during the

question. >> i kept thinking about that, you know, pretty common view that there is n a culture aversion to political plurism and an affinity for a strong hand at the top that has run through russian history and transcends the governmental style of the moment and that is from bizarres and to communism. to what extent do you think that is a factor in what happened under putin? >> i am cautious about taking from the history thoopreseo the. i think one of the stories of the last 10-15 years is we have gone to countries that don't have a history of good

government. and we have been able to help build institutions that make government work. so i am not sure of it being doomed and never being able to be democrat. that is why i think we should offer ukraine to a pathway to europe european citizenship. we need to let them live with more money, prosperity and freedom than the russians it will undermine them. you can not bring democracy to e ex-communist countries but we did. you can't bring democracy to ex-soviet countries we did. you can't to orthodox, or slavic

countries, but we did. if we can make ukraine work they will say you can't make it work in countries named with r and that will make a big dent in that argument. i do think history -- digesting history is difficult. i have a chapter in my book that talks about russia in the 1990's. >> you say we brought democracy and that begs the question what did we do wrong with russia? or did we? couldn't we as the best behaved

differently in the timeframe that might have changed the outcome? >> when i say we, i mean people that believe in the world we do. that includes we the westerns and the brits and we all of the people that helped win the cold war. what did we do wrong? let's do a little experiment. and youpologize -- and i apologize to those who have heard this. let's imagine hitler didn't commit suicide and the second world war never started and the third right survived the decade. let's imagine hitler died like

stalin. there was admitting the holocaust happened and then it was too much and he was pushed out and then economic plight until the mid-1980s we got a reform nazis. and he comes in and they are changing quick. and the national socialist partly loses their monopoly. the ssr is coming under control and the captive nations get their independence. so the czechs and everybody return to a world they were erased from. and then the third right

collapses and we get a country called the german federation. it is mess. the economy is really taken back. we want to help the new countries, the czechs and the danes and we want to treat the german federation when sensitivity and we feel it is difficult because knack they can not get over the nazis in one jump. so we are standoffish in the beginning. then it turns out the ss hasn't been dissolved just renamed. and a lot of senior ex-nancy politicians who came to be democrats still talk about this is germany's backyard and we have to take that into account. so the czechs and danes and dutch want to join nat o.

and we say do you really? and then german politicians say imp imp impermi imperm impermisable. and then we let them in and there is sound and furry in berlin and they say we will never recover but life goes on. then imagine that the 1990s ends in the crisis. and a new politician comes long. he is a former colonel in the ss.

he is poplar and takes over as prime minister and finally that rise counscil and the dutch and such feels bad because they they have bad memories of the ss. and they said we had no excuse for that back in the 1940s, yeah, yeah but he said the ss attract the brightest and best. he has brains and speaks foreign languages. so we swallow hard and try to calm down the former captive nations of the third right. and we say we have to get on with nukes and stuff like that. and everything is okay. and that is my analogy.

i don't think we did much wrong. but if you found they were saying the munich people were legal and you bet the german government newspaper say there were no gas chambers at the camps alarm bells would be ringing. that is what we have in russia. four occasions of the last six months we have had main stream russian media saying that stuff. >> i wanted to ask one more question and then open it up to everyone else and that is what role do you think the historical

truth telling has had in provoking russians or inducing ordinary folks to yearn for a way of recapturing greatness. you had truth telling it describing the revolution as a good thing. and you attacked stalin and lenin and reached back. you had a sense, did you not, of real drift among russians who saw themselves suddenly as without an honorable and noble history. how does that figure into all of this. >> okay. i need prep myself.

who has heard of billy bran? germany can look back on figures who fought the nazis and they can look back on them with pride. and it is possible for germany -- there is a german history out there which is st studied with impressive people that germans can be proud of. let me try a little experiment. i have to get to the right page. i will read out more and i want to see people that can come to my talks before are not allowed to -- let me just look here.

... april the 25th. you can hardly imagine, demonstrate against the invasion. there were. and these are real heroes.

of find the. there was celebrate. it was really difficult. i did not want to cheat. he's going to find out what happened these people invented. it was the beginning. difficult conditions that something to be really proud of. celebrated the incredible human rights. and so it doesn't want that history.

the military music of the stalin era, the speakers here imagine the same as german. 20th-century. now, it was unhappy. and so it was a criminal regime that killed people. how can that be? every reason, i've encouraged much as trying it the really big historical archive. look to see what's going. freedom in russia. it on to the controversial bill

read the top page. all this horrible and kinnear, here's the sores to engage in the debate. that is the point for which the gap is being forged, history. when not using it. >> open it up for questions. there's a traveling microphone. please use it. if you would identify yourself as you begin we would appreciate that. anyone like to start? >> of some really provocative questions. your broadly right, but much too naive.

>> formally associated closely with this organization. there is brilliant as ever. appreciate your comments. you mentioned the ukraine. and the new issue of freedom house, the evaluation of democracy, the former non baltics of the republic of ukraine as a little bit ahead of georgia. after that it's all downhill. you have to countries potentially on the right road to democratic practices. can puente and tolerate that? and the next 12, 18 months we will be seeing a near broad exercise of power that will do everything possible to eliminate those growths of democracy. >> well, it's -- i would like to

think there will be bothering to much. i sometimes feel quite sorry. the economy has done some very difficult issues, inflation, overeating, the investment in difficulty. the collapse, and for structure to all these things. that alone one that wants to get involved a broad. it's encouraging that the russians have locked up. they started the addition of considerable strength. they do it time and time again.

the epitome. it's this company which exists by steel. the money goes into bank accounts and disappears. why they think it's okay to be associated with this. i do not understand. and why. i don't seem. baryon. so yes.

and the georgian leader ship is capable. i think we can agree on that. one of the things and more about , and successfully robeson to do something stupid. that would be potentially very dangerous. i don't know what's going to happen. then the economy. my feeling is that it's not going to go away the eternal optimistic less so-called russian experts who always fall in love.

they represent another sharp turn toward economic and political liberalism. so was interested to see today. one could call the united states and financial aggressor. right. heading for a job at the cato institute. i can see. russian ngos are not allowed to operate. hadn't noticed that one. a front for british intelligence you know, this is to from a remember, there were hauled from their bed in the middle of the night to me that was an echo pretty unpleasant past.

all aboard russian president. the want to say something, establish my credentials as someone. in the want to say something. i might say it's a pity the some of our center of overreacted someone. i would not go down this road. >> next question, provocative or otherwise. >> what is your perception of the eu. do you think that there ever going to adopt a common approach ? >> good question. it's that. it's not hopeless. i have said in the economists think the long slow room, starting from very low point.

the long slow rally is begun. it's been really bad. using germany, austria, the netherlands and italy, france all doing in defiance of the european collectors. it contains. i think the mob tried to overturn the swedish ambassador, on its way to the embassy. that really struck a chord. this really hit home. the cyber attack on people who were totally uninterested. and i strongly recommend preferences in the book, website

. on the cyber tac it shows some very serious than ever in the car really worried. one little thing which exemplifies, reported here. visa free travel may submitted people and should not be able to . it included all the leaders. and suddenly this would go to the russian political they'd. there were furious.

in britain and. the man been one of the reasons why it deteriorated so sharply. them the ability. we should do more of it. starting from a very low base. but i do think the public opinion is now starkly. i think people of tools, russians particular missile much cultural interchange and so. if you look it the pew research poll which showed even in germany and the poor right of 70% in 2001 and now, it's really

touchy about russian. the lead to some extent, agreed on an empty. >> is there any evidence that that actually has an impact on policy? >> we live in conditions of political freedom. that the representatives to it notice. they closed down two weeks later it was meant to be an authentic expression of the popular sentiment. suddenly they just pulled the plug out and it doesn't exist anymore. some great authenticity. so i think the thing -- and the some of them are been worried about access. one of the problems when you get very rich as you can keep the

gold bars and underdog bills under your bed anymore. and keep a couple of million dollars bid it's a huge amount of money. it popped up was just the best ways to keep it. and you've got billions and billions and billions of dollars in the western financial markets . one of the arguments and make is that we need to have the same rules on asset building as we have on money laundering. the canoe turn up at a banquet the suitcase full of hundred dollar bills. no questions asked. and then when we first target to worry about money laundering and people said you can't stop banks taking money. that's what they do. the mice will stand between hundred schoolboy in his lunch. we said no. regard have some rules on this. you cannot pay in large quantities of cash that you

can't explain we've got that from. slowly but rather haphazardly that has begun to have an effect in my argument, effectively the policeman, but on do asset laundering. just as you can't pay the western financial system of money, you also can't sell cub is on the western financial market. if you have tough rules on beneficial ownership, related party transactions and a few other things you can make a really difficult for the pseudo companies, to get into western financial markets. that think that what cost their industry problems. >> yes. hello. voice of america. thank you for the inside presentation. >> big apple little bit. >> in light of because of a

recognition on wondering how likely it is for russia to recognize and whether there's anything at this point we can do of them wait-and-see how russia will react regarding charges separatist region. >> well, the russians would be nice to recognize that. it's like a swiss cheese. they having a great difficulty hanging on. if they start saying this ethnic self-determination, there's going to be plenty of people inside russia is say, yes, i'd like some of that. the russian interest is actually know. it's lucrative. barry's money laundering things the you can do. it's a good place to go on holiday, things like that. these are pawns on a chessboard.

there things you can do to make the georges nervous. but the really don't think -- is too dangerous. it's too dangerous for the kremlin to set this sort of precedent. in many ways that we have, but actually when it became independent did you notice the kremlin jumping a pin down and saying this is a breach of international law, became independent. so you know wants to stop looking into the russians in its pretty high. i do think that what they guy was what they want. that is a perfect situation for them. you have european foreign policy exposing large chunks of european public opinion as if somehow.

>> my name is molly and kneele. now with the johns hopkins university. a one to talk about investment and so on. the western europeans. i dislike task, you don't think there's any reputable russian company in other words none should be? a wet to at least have that clarified. you think there would be awaited do a better vet in? i agree with that. i personally think that to the extent that western companies for example recently the consumer goods area for detergents and things like that, big acquisitions by western companies and to russia. i tend to believe like most people, this kind of thing is

desirable and will hopefully bring about better governance. okay. does not so provocative. the other thing i would say is i would also may be tend to believe that at the margin it may be desirable to have western shareholders in something like. would you say no? >> first of all, let me be absolutely clear. i'm not saying and all that we should have any kind of financial blockade. it's one of the great beacons of hope. and the economic independence is still better. worry about the cost and competition, maybe even the share price politicians and high taxes, that's great. that's natural. the reflexes. in the hope very much that it turns in the middle class, economic freedom.

the political freedom and legality. think that's great. do everything to encourage it. if you're real russian company you're welcome. this money. come see our venture capitalists it's terrific. we should make acquisitions. that scared. i'm worried about a disproportionate dependents. i get worried when people's livelihood is so tied up in russia that they lose sight of the moral and political dimension. and when i was -- the four years i was in moscow, people who were so determined. there were making so much money. it would go to extraordinary lengths to try to squash stories in the economist that might be bad for the market. people listening in just -- heavy lobbying attempts to try

and shift the news to a more positive direction. to some extent it worked. i noticed the newspapers before by russian entities to glorify the achievements of the putin regime. i would hate to think that that had any effect at all on their news coverage. in many cases it probably doesn't. in some cases of suspected does. we need a sense of proportion. the business with russia, that was deeply suspicious. now that becomes a small test. obviously it's preposterous to say you're doing something morally reprehensible by doing business in russia. we need to keep some kind of context. al exposed to this country? how much pressure can the kremlin put on them as a result? what sort of messages are coming out to make the best example,

the german gas industry where the eu is trying to do the right thing, liberalize the european energy markets, get rid of these monopolies and to encourage interconnection between the eu. it's not a strictly free-market approach and that's why. national security. we should not let energy policies be determined just by the interest of consumers and shareholders anymore than we did i love being interest during the cold war. so trying to do the right thing command is being blocked. is being blocked by germany because the german indigene industry does not want. but that is an example. that's what i don't want. >> with our radio free europe allotted to take you back to one

of your original theories that you proposed which was that you did not know exactly the answer but you -- but now i'm going to ask you think a little bit more about it. you hypothesize that may be putin and his group are just crux. if there are correct then we really do need to not deal with them. what is the timeline? are they just looking to make enough money until they can retire? do they want to retire at 60 or 65 or did they want to put their children in place to have a permanent delete study of the second generation of cracks. we have to wait for the grandchildren to revolt against their grandparents who are the crux? with the timeline? >> i honestly don't know. at think you need to know -- is very difficult. during the 1990's you can get to know the people. it was not that closed off. if you're lucky you might end up

-- lucky, if you were from a journalistic point of view might end up. you could talk. you could get a sense of what they wanted. you can get a sense, for example , some of the oligarchs clearly had extremely dodgy backgrounds but were desperate for respectability. that bothered by the pound and a kilo. and you can see, ask yourself, this liberal is trying to change his spots. what benchmarks and by setting to see how that goes. it is so sealed now. there was never given an interview. and it's really difficult. don't even know what they look like little of what they think. so it's difficult. i say we go back to the machine, go back to trying to -- and

can't remember. criminology was will be used to use and people were very good at it to try the analyze what was going on in the kremlin. you read between the lines, who came first. in lines and so what. his picture is on his wall. you really try and workable was pulling on. that seems to be a completely obsolete skill. went out with the telex machine. you know. now we are back. we're making -- that's all we've got. we just don't know. wish i knew the answer. >> you have no doubt heard about the attempts to get registered on the new york stock exchange. what do you think of those chances? secondly, the london market's.

>> the different levels of listing. you can have adrs, over the counter market level one, two, three. i think what's interesting about transparencies, it enables you find things out. i loved it. seemed to have the right. and nobody else. they came to the new york stock exchange and they had to do an sec filing. grade reading. the extensive time in jail for organized crime. the proceedings. it's open to legal challenge. i think the mention that there were frequently referred to as being responsible.

it's what i just said, the sec funding. if you want to get on yet to do this. and so they did it. it was all there. i thought it was fair enough. at least your admitting to the murders bandits. and you are now trying to have, you know, you get to the trouble of trying to come to the stock exchange. you have other shareholders. to some extent you may be trying to benefit them. i won't say hands off, but it was better than if they hadn't done it. so that's what i feel. these markets have rules. let's just make sure the rules are tough and well enforced and we don't get some kind of exemptions being made that enable them. presumably they have to explain their related party transactions i would love to know.

>> u.s. commission on international religious freedom. yesterday ask you about what i think is the way in which russia or i should say the kremlin is building a wall of a round of self in many respects. and one of them you mentioned has been closed at least for now there are other similar groups. factor has been a group formed for the under 12 said. >> right. >> i could never quite get the name. there's another group that is even more noxious. it actually engages the tax. so i've been seeing -- in fact, just the day, pretty specific report which upon obviously is a good sun.

apparently the moscow police finally set up a unit to protect foreign citizens in moscow. of course that didn't help. but in any case that's one aspect of this of this growing phenomenon. but another aspect is the cult of the state. and i think it's connected to these groups. that is internal politics. on the international scene i think russian exceptional as an is also a very important part of this way in which russia wants to be perceived. is an international organization .

>> got it. quite a bit in my book. the unleash something that it can't control. much to teach people politics to organize the demonstration, the people to death and that kind of thing. so i -- the state, it's interesting. a section in the book. these words don't really translates. it doesn't sound right. the whole russian political vocabulary.

quite a lot of collaboration. i think seven democracy, this mixture of autocracy in nationalism was invented. it's pretty much fits the we have. the narrative, academic, the dominant story, but there is another story, these demonstrators with this is not the only slice of russian history. can play this game of what would happen if putin was rising and british history books are american history books. you would find it rather unpleasant and authoritarian figures. j. edgar hoover would be portrayed as a hero, really strong man.

fdr and mccarthy would be elevated as a great fighter for freedom you can play all sorts of games by taking countries histories and pulling strands out and trying to make a story of the. we can do, we have to fight the historical fight and show that these other ways of looking ahead, this isn't the only way. >> either of these extreme groups. >> well, i think what i notice is that my friends don't want to talk on the phone in more. we do skype chat. that is still regarded to fun and often from other people's computers he could pick up the phone and have an interesting conversation. i don't think they have succeeded in creating all widespread kind of fear about beating foreigners in general,

but it is true -- people now get all then by the fsb for having had meetings with foreigners. on multiple occasions this happens. and i think the fears commence a big country, there's still a lot of freedom about, in particular the freedom which is very important. if you don't like him must go abroad. a kind of safety valve. doesn't have that kind of pressure cooker feeling. they're out to did you and there's no way you can get away. but it's actually the trajectory is that. you know, what seems to five things that seem impossible for years ago tomentum like a two years ago. the incarceration. >> your next. >> thank you very much.

the part of defense. you ruled out the military portion of the previous cold war can you comment a little bit about the military now? the provocative actions going on at the same time that we are having a major russian u.s. exercise in germany. the continuity between one. >> i feel slightly awestruck that i should be telling the department of defense a thing about it. thank you for giving me opporunity to a display my ignorance. the russian military is us to the soviet military. and you can just -- them and all down. you can just see, i think the exercises, it's about -- i think they have roughly 20 ships, 20

big ships that are actually capable of going to see. some of those, it's not great. so the navy in the submarines of super silent. there's some problems there. the aviation is antique. some of these planes with they're sending, this is a tribute. they should be in a museum for military aviation. the idea that they're part of some kind of offensive capability is fairly distant. perhaps the most glaring thing is the continued failure to reform the russian land forces. if you have not read pachinko spoke, the institutional is still going on. it's still a loyal mess. what happens is that generals by

bmw's but it does not penetrate down to better living conditions for the troops. so from that point of view it looks pretty bad. there are tracking a lot of money into it. depending on how you counted its 120 of the 140 author somewhere in between. but still that's quite a lot of money if your adversaries georgia, moldova or even possibly estonia and latvia or lithuania. there is enough there to do damage. and it is going up remarkably quickly, very, very rapid increase. now i suspect it's likely that the military industrial base is so rundown of the don't have the skills to make the most of the money they're putting in. certainly they don't have the shipyard capable even of repairing the one they're trying

to sell to india. from the point of view it's still not. what i do worry about coming inside information is a worry about the sales of advanced weapons. for example this underwater brocket, super cavitation, it sounds like something from mike's super cal a fragile mystic xbla dutchess. sexually very scary. coke's water vapor which means it can go very fast, 200 kilometers an hour under water. and that's quite scary if you're relying on aircraft carriers. if they start sending us to the iranians or the chinese which i read is happening or the belfast ship to ship nestle, they change the calculation whether we send

a carrier group -- week, america, the carrier group to defend taiwan are what happens in western farmers. there's a kind of asymmetric which is different from what we can actually do in terms of the old fashioned confrontation. we have so many thousand tanks cut you have some money thousand tanks. the population of 140 million in the demographics. i can see is coming back. what's really troubling is that they feel the need to do this. that is the really -- why on earth i you having staff exercises, and they are only staff exercises on how to recapture the baltic states. what possible reason is there for doing that? >> well, do you think they might want to recapture the baltic states? >> i would like to think that article five would make me think that was a bad idea. you know, one of the things with

article five his aides great. and i heard from friends in brussels that they have been doing some paper exercises on how reenforce the baltic states if it came on the -- they can. you know nato has. we have a very small squadron. they seem to miss everything that goes on. it's not as of defense of the baltic state, it's a bit like west berlin. there symbolically vital, pretty much indefensible. we use them as a trip wire. if you attack and that things will happen elsewhere. but that's not a huge comfort. you know, i have no idea, your perspective, talk afterward and i'm delighted. >> george washington university, i am intrigued by the mention of

trying to list on the nyse. could you comment on the pluses and minuses from the russian point of view as far as the degree to which that could limit them or make them behave. from the western point of view about basically, you know, if it turns out that a lot of u.s. pension funds and upholding a lot of russian companies they're is a stronger interest in maintaining good relationships. >> the thinking among the oligarchs in the 1990's is to be -- steal as much as you can as fast as you can. that worked pretty well. and what he did was to say there may be another way of doing this. that see if we can get the share price up. and he did that. and didn't believe he would do it. when i arrived in moscow in 981 of the first articles i wrote was about the fact that he had just hired.

and an investment bank, the pinstripe brigade. and i had been covering all lines. that thought this was laughable. you have these guys with the council backed out, everything they have done, the aids, the refuse to speak. you know, headquarters guarded by men with submachine guns. this is not to be taken seriously i watched and turn the wrong. the time i wrote an article saying he couldn't do it, but a thousand dollars in the shares by the town of on the apologized one well built system.

and i said i will apologize. i didn't think you could do it and you did. you become a very rich man. that is an achievement. and i think that lesson has not been lost on people. if you are -- if your world consists of shares in russian companies and uc the being traded on exchanges pushing the share price up that will make you a lot richer, perhaps more richer. it would be different, but that is why they want to get. it want to raise money which they badly need because they need to invest. also they become richer. you can use that. >> go ahead. >> mr. lucas you mentioned earlier about the role of truth telling and challenging. i was wondering, you knew and what you see as the role for

journalists in the current russian political climate, if there's a wall or fed is already been muzzled to a point of infections. >> ghali it would have to be really, really bright. i mean about sport. consumer trends. 95 percent of russian journalism is not about policies. i was in the deaths of the other day. ninety-nine channels, none of it was about policy. all this kind of stuff. he can make it very political. in that direction a lot of people don't. what is left is of philosophy.

the majority shareholder. it's good to have a good journalist. but that is pretty much it. you times which is good. if any of you have any control over anybody's advertising budget. i suggested that the tourist board took out large investments they at least could be intimidated. and you know tickets advertised. sometimes it's obviously very good. sometime this nonsense. much better. there's still a lot of

interesting stuff to read, a lot of journalists to find ways of writing it. the trajectory is in the wrong direction. the space is getting more and more narrow. one of the things you can do. we shall see. >> western journalism. how difficult is it to get of the senate? >> i think there were eight british journalists who could not get visas. the russians they said five of them can try again, three shouldn't bother. in no you get on the blacklist. you can't get off. it's not quite like in the soviet union were once you been deported you never get back in again. you are risking other people's

perhaps livelier than perhaps security. he of a confidential source in the russian government organization it tells you things you know he might get a visit from the fsb if the find is been talking. so i wouldn't say the kind of plan this time days of trying to reach people. but it's always pretty tricky. i think there's a degree of caution. we were aware that what we do can get people and trouble. so we have to be a bit careful. the circle of reporting a bit narrow. people in the kremlin and be told. are you just structure do you really believe this nonsense.

>> thanks. it's good to see you again. i want to ask one of the good questions which is transition to what? what's next? a lot of people in washington still think about democracy and free markets acting perhaps correctly would talk as though he has rollback what had been a more less and point. this is something we spend a lot of time on worrying about arguing. i want to know what your thoughts are. >> well as an economist and know it's much better to predict the past in the future. one can see this experiment running at a steam. it is a brilliant paper called reassessing russia, british military think tank which is about 1 millionth of the size of its counterparts in america or counterparts. he says to sit back and let the

contradictions work themselves out. these people and not just cricket and scary but they're also incompetent. you know, a new gas field from scratch. partial exceptions. that was actually done earlier. russia is facing a gas shortage. ahead long winters. the very dependent on gas and turkmenistan. so being optimistic, the key thing we can do is to regain on wall course. at the end of the cold war two things in conjunction. the west did an admirable and enviable just at the time the soviet system really collapsed. my worry is that my best russian friends and not particularly political.

so actually what is really the difference? you know, you have organized crime, a top politician. you have -- politics, most people get on with their lives. why should remind some much? so much of what he does is replicated in the west. and so that's why i feel it's not just a struggle between the last and the kremlin but a struggle within russia for the future of russia because these people about for russia and the struggle within the west as well >> in wrong. >> the lady at the back. >> my question is a lot of the

rhetoric using, the cold war rhetoric, i have read your book yet, but a ban on the block. mention in your suggesting in limiting russia from a al qaeda. his like a lot of the rhetoric to ostracize russia about you feel that is helping to mitigate or really minimize the threat? , assuming that is your goal. >> well, i did not quite incident the book. not give you a quick one. we have to separate pragmatism. i think we should be engaging russia much more than we have done. from example on strategic groups did it ministration as the wrong in saying we have lots. we don't have to talk to anybody i'm not an expert on this, but i don't think it makes america safer if russia is the strategic balance is so skewed in favor of america that russia goes to launch a war. worried about its first strike.

we should be talking about space i really feel strongly that we need to talk, particularly in russia. we can talk in afghanistan. is not as if this movement there. global warming, all these big issues. russia is perhaps not a giant company but china and india, it's a big country. there's been a failure to some extent to engage on these big issues. this team of russian joined the council of europe. the trajectory was very different. it looked as though there was a lot of bumps and imperfections, but were show was going toward the same sort of model of political freedom that characterized. it is no longer the case. we have midnight interrogations' , psychiatric incarceration of dissidents happening again and again.

twice a pretty scary. three times, four times, five times, six times been hit his family still doesn't know where yes. it took 40 days to get them out of the psychiatric hospital. this is something the kremlin feels no shame about coupled with this extraordinary jen a phobic rhetoric. if you're comparing americans with the third reich you can't then expects to sit down on a family vacation. we have to make it clear that words and deeds have consequences. if they want to continue despite the xenophobic rhetoric and continue, cyber attacks on all the stuff, you cannot take

faraway countries to which we know nothing. it is our allies. then there have to be consequences. the regulation, russia cannot be a member of your. in the al qaeda to my always felt that al qaeda was a botched compromise. even on islamic terms russia is not -- it makes much more sense to talk to rush of a semi we talk to china and india and brazil. and that's absolutely fine. we have lost talk about it on global imbalances, reforming the imf. let's seven c-span orgy 14 and talk about these economic issues if there's going to be a democracy that has to be. dennis. we have to send a signal that this is not anti russian are anti russia.

as the kremlin and the things that they say and do the we object to. when that stops with will be delighted. russia -- of rhode about this in the book. one of the release striking things that the kremlin has gone into, for a policy. in the alliance between russia and china is an alliance between to fund the kremlin may claim a nato's coming to our borders. there a thousand times more frightened. so -- it just doesn't make sense . china doesn't even like it. much more long-term. since through this exhausting anti-semitic speeches. russia's a great friend of the

muslim world. you want to be a great friend of the muslim world? this is a genocidal attack on the muslims. and actually if your kind of an nativist chauvinist slavic russia you might be quite scared . one could make the characterization. so dense -- was left? friends with the west. fine. a european country. great. but russia can't be friends with the west. you cannot just be friends with germany. the west is not about bilateral old-fashioned kind of concept of the inner relations. russia and france can be friends it's about values. the stalinist coast that hangs

over, once that's gone, ones that historical hangup is gone and russia can be a russian country. nobody will be more pleased to announce. >> what extent is their cooperation between russia and the west on counter-terrorism? intelligence sharing? >> last time i was looking at the secret file which will get copied in on. i don't know. i just don't know. there is some overlap. incorporation was quite good after september 11th. in know, the kgb often know quite a lot about the islamic terrorism given some of the links that existed a few years back. asher was useful. but i think this is all stuff -- and you can never really know what's going on. i do know that the fsb involvement.

we are not talking the fsb because of this act of terrorism perpetrated on the streets of london which endangered the lives. that was a big deal and britain. >> you mentioned the paper. he mimics a very important point that energy dependence is not a one-way streets. russia does not have the infrastructure descend a lot of their energy in the other direction. has to send it to the west. in that connection what do you think might happen at some point time when because of economic circumstances they're is a real serious problem the road, what does that mean for the leaders in moscow, those who want to go another direction and said this is impossible to continue

stealing and manipulation. others say we have to get real and become a modern democratic society or something equivalent. >> well i do really recommend reading -- it's in english and russian. is a former energy member, analyzed and really quite scary detail the weakness of the russians and in particular gas. there are references to it in the book. how russia codes with a gas shortage is very interesting. the country that knows russia best and the companies that know russia bust of the germans based on the 30-year gas contracts. my suspicion is as the internal price rises it becomes relatively less lucrative to

export to faraway countries. western people paid real money in nobody else but anybody. the ukrainians are russians, they're charging the russians themselves more so the benefits of export diminished. less export gas to go around. the germans will be at the front of it. i would now want to be at the back. this is a weapon the using right now. there in talks with the romanians. the romanians have a spot price. you do a long time gas contract with us to be ..