some people are saying he should get a deal for telling the government what he released. first talk about what is your feeling about the revelations. were you surprised to learn what the nsa was doing? the extent they were doing it? >> guest: it covered such a swath of activity and some of what has come out publically i wasn't surprised about. i knew what the nsa was doing. >> host: with the meta data collecting. >> guest: that wasn't a surprise nor was the electronic investigation overseoverseas. but the massive amount of data

and information snowden had access to was shocking to me. i would read the latest one and think i never knew that was going on. so this 29-year-old contractor in a remote place gets the stuff the chief legal officer of the stando cia couldn't get to it. >> host: and do you think it has created a good debate? >> guest: i can there meta data and the phone records were valuable. i don't think this would have happened with the disclosures. but he disclosed so much more that had nothing to do with america and the american

constitution that i think it is hugely damaging. >> host: do you think it is damaging because the technology can't move up fast? you said the countries will continue to work was. >> guest: it will have a chilling affect for a while. there is going to be more reluctance to share what they have and what happens if there is a shard of information ability a terrorisaattack and for whatever reason because of snowden that isn't passed on. >> host: do you think we are at a time where the government and cia needs to assume things will

get out so secrets are not remaining secrets especially in this environment where we depend on the computer to keep secrets. links are inevitable. there were leaks 35 years ago and they will be 35 years from now. they are a fact of life in the community as we know. so we have to live with that. the police are bigger and better at finding them. we have to factor that in what they are planning in say today when we are sitting here. >> host: thank you so much, john, and enjoy the book. good luck. >> guest: thank you.

>> here is a look at the saturday schedule: first up the justice elena. and then actor joseph phillipss and then the med honor ceremony. ...

"the triple package" is the first of three quality, three elements, that in combination -- only in combination -- propel individuals and certain groups to disproportionate success. defined in a certain way. and the three elements of the triple package are, first, a sense of exceptionality and you can get it from different sources but it's just a feeling you're special, and destined for special things. the second element is almost seemingly the opposite, and that is, a dash of insecurity to

offset the exceptionality, and that is a feeling you haven't quite done enoh yet, not quite good enough yet. the third element is impulse control or the ability to persevere and resist temp indication and it's the interplay between the first two qualities that is at the crux of the book. how does somebody simultaneously feel insecure and superior? and we think that that is what precisely generates drive and the feeling, i need to show the world, i need to show other people, need to prove myself. >> then what is the third impulse control? >> that allows you to be able to do it. so, you could have all the drive and hunger -- this longing to rise but if you aren't -- i don't know -- trained or don't have the ability to hang in there and persist, even very

driven people tend to give up. >> host: is there a precise reading of each of these? you used the word dash for the sense of inferiority. are they equally balanced? are there agreedations here? >> we haven't developed a metric yet that would measure the gradation. we we -- from our research, if you pile on too much with any one of the elements it produces bad results. part oft what we talk about when we talk about the pathology that the triple package can bring with it. you need balance but we have not figured out how to measure it. >> it's an an hypothesis. and it's good for individuals. they think of people who are very driven, but of course it's not a -- we haven't been able to

test it in a laboratory. so we don't have -- know how to titrate it exactly, and that's the appoints of the -- the point of the book. we offer it as a new way to look at success. the dark sides and the psychological underpings, and if you have too much of one or the other, it kind of doesn't work and really bad things happen. even when they all are working together as this engine of achievement, it has its own pathologies. >> talk about what kind of success you see coming out of "the triple package." >> sure. just to -- we do not define success as material wealth. the definition of success as far as i'm concerned is simple. success means achieving your goals. whatever they are. we focus on certain conventional metrics of success like income, educational achievement in the

first six chapters of our book, and the reason is, it is an important goal for many people and it's the kind of thing you can measure. we say in at the last few chapters that kind of success is fromly narrow. we think the triple package elements can assist people, empower them to achieve any kind of success, not the purely material kind of. individuals who have these qualities grow up in america, they tend predictably second generation to have a kind of interesting, creative, destruction relationship between their culture and american culture, such that second generation kids and immigrant communities start very typically looking back at their parents and grandparents' generations and saying we don't want to do discuss the way you told us to do. we're not interested in the jobs you said were the only ones and they want to mactheir own decision to be a standup comic or artist. yet we found as --

aspirationally the same qualities can help them achieve very different kinds of goals. >> let's talk about the part of the book i think has the most controversial or the people are talking about most, which is the -- your identification of particular groups as being embodiments of the triple package. talk about which groups you identify and how that triple package manifests itself in their success. >> okay. so we -- this is a snapshot. and i think that's part of the problem. people are seeing just -- saying eight groups are better but it's about in the rise and fall of cultural groups. so the groups that are very driven and disproportionately successful change dramatically over time. different groups ten years ago. different groups ten years from now, and we actually tried to be very, very systemic. we relied kind of straight on census data. we calibrated our own income

figures. had a lot of research assistants with empirical skills working. we're kind of going down the ancestry tables, so the census doesn't identify people by religious. that's not allowed. and we explain which groups we exclude. for example, there's an english american category and that's like 59 people in it and we weren't sure what that was capturing, and we excluded groups i think have the triple package like latvian americans or south african americans because they were under 100,000. i thought we were pretty systemic, went straight down. we looked at eight groups that were most strikingly disproportionally successful according to these conventional metrics of income, professional attainment, educational attainment. we chose those metrics because they're available. very different -- it's difficult to measure artistic success, but

our section on the jews is the focus is on artistic and different -- >> can i interrupt you. you talk about how groups are not identified by religions and six are census identified. more. e mormons and jews are not. so how did you -- >> for these we looked at alternative measures and places look the pew foundation, and independent researchers, do put together income data and they -- we said, these dates don't match up but be tried to be systemic and it's all pretty transparent. in the case of the mormons, they actually don't have that disproportionally high median household income, and they, for one thing, they're -- when you talk about households, they're a much larger percentage of the women do not work. in fact double the women are described as housewives. so that's one thing. we actually chose that group as we described because i think it's maybe the most upwardly

mobile group in america. we compared the statistics. 30 years ago you could barely find a mormon on all street and we lay out their achievements, including in business schools, law schools, professional schools, and so that's what those are different categories. so we look at mormons and jus, which religious groups, nonimmigrant groups, and kind of going down the census tables. indian americans, very, very high income levels. lebanese and iranian meshes, just under that. chinese americans, let's see -- hoe ho and we also look at nigerian americans and cuban americans that -- and we also explained, they are just extreme outliers for their population groups and high rates of up ward mobility and educational performance. we do have look at japanese americans and gone further down

the list but we looked at these eight groups. >> pick one of the groups, favorite group. >> we could talk about the mormons. >> pick the mormons. so, what is -- how do we see the triple package in action with mormons in particular? >> sure. great. so, the starting point of our book was this remarkable fact which many people sense but we documented it, that there's several groups that are really outperforming the national average in terms of income and educational achievement, and aimy just went through the ones we focused on. then we identified those independently as regular rosalias we could. then we started looking at the groups, wondering, asking ourselves, are we going to find any cultural commonality? and before i get to the mormons. why look for cultural commonalities? why not suppose there's something else going on that would explain success. hopefully we'll talk about

alternatives later, but just in a nutshell. look at something lime asian americans, academic success. you're instantly struck if you do your homework by the finding that third generation asia americans are not outprooferring the country, but asia americans overall score higher on the sats in the country, disaproving biology, interrupting is whole model minority discourse and stereo type, by showing there's something cultural going on in the groups in the families. so that's our starting point, there's something going on in the culture. so we looked at the cultures, and sure enough we downs -- we didn't expected to -- this startling commonality. so in the case of the more moans, they have this chosen people narrative. and it was borrowed from the jewish experience. they have their moses, an

exodus, also inheritance from america's puritans. an interesting combination of two histories. joseph smith thinks he has discovered a new religion and his followers believe they're here to redeem the children church and mannedkind and they believe their way of life is morally superior, and the word used in one of the leading discussions of mormon culture is they see themselves as an island of moriality in the sea of decree okay. so they have this strong sense of exceptionality. we call at it superiority complex. insecurity. it's fascinating. they deeply feel a sense of rejection, sense of not being looked on as fully american. they know they've been looked on as a fringe group, cults group from 100 years ago. they were vilified because of the practice of polygeny and even when they renounced

polygamy, for decades they have felt on the outside and the fact they had to hear mitt romney's sons as creepy because they were so cleancut is an example. so they feel and this will be their word, you can see this described and their own autobiographies -- >> the history of persecution. >> they were actually hunted down and chased across the country. so they tell this whole story of their insecurity, which is both a matter of peril and being look down upon, and so they will say words like, we feel a chip on the shoulder. we have to show the country we can succeed as americansed and they seem to be motivated by that combination of this exceptionalitt but living in society where they have this outside persecuted relationship. and finally, impulse control. a fascinating thing. strikes you in the face when you look at them.

they practice practices of habits of impulse control that are very different from mainstream americans. these are well-known. they don't smoke, don't drink. they don't drink caffeine or soda, and they start doing this with their kids, and this turned out to be extremely relevant to our findings. they don't just suddenly start this when you're adults. they start these habits of impulse control with their kids from preschool. they give them little piggy banks where they have to tithe. they have to put 10%way. they start them on practices of having to goo to church and sit still from a very early age. by the time they're teenagers, mormon kids are -- don't smoke as much, don't drink as much, less premarital sex. no stereo type but matter of fact. so all three elements are very strongly present in theirs case. >> what's the result of -- what's the outcome?

>> as will off of the groups, the mormons are experiencing exceptional rates of upward mow million. we can des moines -- demonstrate that in the mormon case what is so striking -- i worked on wall street 30 years spying remember very well -- this is confirmed by many other accountants -- it was difficult to find a mormon on wall street. they weren't there, and you didn't find them in corporate boardrooms and in the last 30 years now, today, they are a powerhouse in some of america's best recognized corporations, american express, citigroup, del, fisher-price, sears, huntsman, and many, many others, jetblue, the list goes on. so we have they three traits, an extraordinary sudden record of success, and then we have a causal hypothesis that these

traits are causing a motivation and drive which, by the way, our account can deliver and no other account of successful groups we're aware of can. >> let's talk about -- you talked about excluding other explanations people criticized your book and say, setting aside mormons and jews for a second, but this is an immigrant -- what you identified is the characteristic strive of immigrants and the reason why it declines in third generation -than - americans they're no longer engaged engaged in the s, and anyone who mikes a journey that hard is of course going to have that in them and is going to convey that to their children. so, talk about why the triple package is not just immigration. >> actually, that part of it, we're very sympathetic to. i don't see why that's a critique. i think most accounts of success, whether you're talking about individual success or group accounts, what they miss

is drive. so, if you have class -- you're born wealthy. of course people who are born wealthy have a leg up. we totally agree with that. and the explanations are, you just came -- you are the children of educated immigrants. that's a big part of our book. of course that gives you an advantage. what is missing from these accounts is motivation. the wasp elite was the most educated group, the most networks, and we're not the first people to say that in the 40s, 50s, 600s, they not only looked the drive, it was gauche to be striving. so to answer your questions there are two types of self-selection hypotheses when its comes to immigrants. putting aside the jews and the mormons. there's this idea that the only immigrants who are succeeding right now are the ones that come over with education, with the

skills, and that unfortunately is just not true. it's the politically correct explanation, which is, we don't have to look into cultures because it all comes from who your parents are. it's definitely a big deal with certain of the groups, like indian americans or cuban americans, but it's not, for example, true with chinese americans, and this is a -- these findings are replicated not just in the united states, l.a., but also toronto and uk. studies show that the children of totally uneducated, chinese, korean, vietnamese immigrants, people whose parents sometimes are illiterate, factory workers, restaurant workers, taxicab drivers. they are risings at academically faster than privileged white counterparts and they're also kind of hitting its out of the park with the test scores and that's the part that has been

hard to get traction on, because of course we acknowledge that if you're the child of a software engineer you have a leg up. there's another piece that is so fascinating, and even when you're talking about cuban americans, people want to say, it's easy. they came over with education. actually it was only a third of that first wave that came over as elite. so two-thirds didn't. let's say the whole pile came over. what's missing from those accounts is the mechanism. how does that first generation of immigrant -- let's say i was doctor back home. i come to this country and i live in a crowded place and i have no job because my degree doesn't count here. so i have to work as a janitor or fruit picker. how does that drive or education, whatever you want to call it, the human capital, get transmitted to the next generation that's where we see our book fitting in. it helps to be an immigrant and most immigrants who come here --

of any background -- el salvador -- i think refugees have the triple package. on an individual level. the question is, how do you convey those traits to the next generation? i think that's where the drive comes in. >> so there's no reason to think that there wouldn't be people in poverty in india who are lazy and not working very hard and absent all trippal package? your book opportunity try to say that india should be most way. yest country on earth because indian americans are doing well? >> no that's backwardses. >> this is not a back that makes comparisons between countries. we don't say that indian culture, whatever that might be, ought to have made india a more prosperous country. the best theory i know about between country comparisons are why nations fail, and the claim is that institutions are

fundamental, functioning free market will legal and protections and inclusivity and political inclusivity. that's what makes nations more or less prosperous. it's american institutions in combination with these cultural traits that allow these people to succeed in this country. >> i like that question because it's not just that it's the institutions that are missing in india or cuba, obviously. it's a great question because it clarifies how we're using culture. we are not talking about this essentialist hinduism or 5,000 year confuciusism. it's more the immigrant experience. they come over, yeah, strong, middle kingdommite. the chinese have a very strong sense of exceptionalism. once you come to this country, that is all mixed up. you're an outsider. you have a funny accent and it's this dynamic interplay. >> may i go back to -- here's

what the immigrant sect different idea can't explain. it can't explain mormon or jewish success. these are two big cases in our book. in addition to that -- there's two ideas of immigrant activity. one is coming over if higher education, and the other is bold. late look at education skills. over half of chinese immigrants do not go -- come over on visas. we have a stereo type who is coming over but most of them are not. so the chinese ones -- this community has been very well studied. the chinese ones who don't come over, there's mostly poor and many of them very poorly educated, and yet their kid -- this is documented because there's a large community of people have done the research. the kids of those immigrants are doing just as well as the kid of the other immigrants, which is odd. that shows you it's in the parental background doing the work. more important for our purposes they're doing better and they're

better educated and better off white peers. why are these groups doing better than the white average? doing better than better educated white kids? and from families higher in the socioeconomic level, we're not saying they're doing better than this other group that is persistentsly low income group. that's not the problem. we're asking how come they're doing better and better educated kids who start from a better place, and our answer its has to be something in the culture and upbringing. >> so you're focusing on the upside, the positive success stories. there are plenty of immigrant groups which are not doing as well as chinese americans are. so, if you look at -- what's a group that itch -- if you look is not doing well. >> well, actually, we look at some of the most disadvantaged groups in our book. we treat them quite carefully, and i think we're pretty -- it's

like on the first page we're saying this has nothing to do with the triple package. >> i want an immigrant group that is not doing well the way chinese-americans are doing. >> there are many refugee groups coming over. obviously they come over with absolutely nothing, and so i'm just -- i'll say sudan or the hmong are a very poor group, and the book -- i think -- injuries why are hmong incomes low and educational achievement low? >> it's a snapshot. right now some of these groups, honestly, that are very poor right now, in one generation will rise disproportionately. i do. we just happened to work with these refugee groups in new haven. first of all there irinstitutional problems. some of them can't get a job. they don't have a work permit so there are all these things that have nothing to do with how hard

they work. it's just discrimination sometimes, and if you're asking me why are some of them not at the highest levels of income, well, some of these people have had their entire families killed. they come over, one person and are working and working. i believe if we can track its they will have disproportionate success. many of these groups. but it's a snapshot in time. so look at the poorest income groups, they are often war refugees and people that have just come through civil conflict and all kinds of historical reasons. >> i think one question i had about the book is, i'm thinking back to the charles marie perfectinger controversy, you remember vividly, and how tense that was, and everyone got upset at murray because they were focusing on -- they were trying to pathologyize behavior of groups, and i think it's great

you're puck ought thing -- picking out things that are successful. i worry without looking at the other side you're cherry-picking the good stuff. so i want to know, what is the negative? if you had to write the opposite book, where would the opposite book land? >> i think it's a totally fair question. number one, as we all know, the murray high possession sis was an iq hypothesis. we refute that in the book. we talk about third generation asia americans which undercuts the hypothesis. people have studied chinese americans and the fining is the iq is not different. so, we look at that, the book excludes this, in my view, pernicious iq explanation which is unfounded. now, we look in our book at the amish, a group that is poor, and we try to show how they don't have the triple package. we look at plame -- appalachians

and show how they don't have the triple package. you can look at -- if you were interested, study the compare -- mexican-americans immigrant communities in los angeles with some of the east asia immigrant communities in los angeles, and we look a little bit at that. our book is not about why mexican-americans aren't as successful. many of them assimilate into a culture and a group which has been for 200 more years in this country, subject to discrimination, second class citizenship, denials of opportunity, structural exclusions, many reasons why some immigrant groups who do not face and don't get assimilated into a group with that history and those continuing structural problems might be so there are many reasons why asia-americans might be doing better than them. that's not -- that would not be so shocking. what is much more interesting is

that these groups are doing better than national average, the white average. that's what we're trying to explain. if you look at the studies they'll tell you that very careful studies that latino american kids in l.a. from immigrant communities are not raised with the same high academic expectations, and we cite these studies in our book and it's interesting. they captured two elements of the triple package. high expectations mean parents tell the kid wes know you can outperform the rest of your classmateses. your capable of it. that's the superiority complex. the expectation and demand adds the insecurities. if you don't do that, you'll disappoint us and you'll fail our expectations. you're going to disappoint yourself. you're going to embarrass our family, and this kind of careful cultural analysis has been done, and the people who studied this most carefully conclude that those high expectations, the difference in the expectations are actually doing some of the work causally in producing

success and it's not a new finding. this goes back 50 years, skoshologyists discovering time after time that high expectations are driving. i got to just add one more point. if what we were doing in this book is capturing the immigrant experience and the interesting phenomenon of second generation success and then third generation decline, that would be exactly what we're trying to do, because no alternative explanation can capture that. not the i.q., they can't explain second generation success and third generation decline, not views about structural bias and structural problems, all which exist but they can't explain the phenomenon which sociologists have found in virtually every grim group and that's goes back 100 years. italians, pols, second generation decline. our explanation the only one i

know of that captures that perfectly. >> want to go back to your question what's the negative. if we were talking bat cultural trade that was exclusive to somebody with this history, that would be dish would disagree with that, too. but we're talking in -- specially when talking about impulse controls -- about behaviors anybody can access. so biggers supporters have been public school educators. we just had so many e-mails, and to give you one example, a school teacher from southern california said, i'm latino and a public high school teacher. can't believe this. i think about culture and class and success all the time and i see with my own eyes these asia american kids have these study habits that lead to better agreeds, so i told my son we're going to replicate that and he is a straight-a student. it's almost more demeaning to not talk about this. if you say, look, the reason,

the only reason that some groups are doing better than others, is external things. it's all discrimination. it's because they came over with better capital, human capital, literally we need to eliminate description, -- discriminatio, we need to change our institutions which should be the first priority, about that's it. that leaves people with no agency and we get e-mails saying, boy, is there not a level playing field. its incredibly unfair. we want to change the world, too, but we also want to know what we can do in our own families, and this is actually extremely useful for us. i'm talking about study habitses or different mentalities and the most interesting study it what i call the reverse marshmallow test. everybody knows about the marshmallow test, you offer kids one marshmallow now or two if you wait 15 minutes and the people who deferred

gratification 30 years later are wildly more successful in terms of family happiness, stability, income, education. last year, they ran this test again in rochester at the university of rochester. first they did a new twist. they lied to half the kids. they told half the kids if you do this, we'll give you cool art supplies, and then they break their promise, and then they ran the marshmallow test. every one of the kidses who had been lied to grabbed the first marshmallow, and this goes right to your question. if, as i believe in the case of many of these poorer groups we're talking about, if the society has let you down, that is if you cannot -- you do not believe you can trust your institutions, you don't think if you work really hard and defer gratification you're actually going to be rewarded, then there was no incentive to do this. so i think you should put that together with the triple package, and i was talking to some former students who are in education, and they're saying, teachers at the high school and

grade school level should know and be trained that some people -- it's not just these immigrants work so hard. they believe in the promise of the institutions. why can't we kind of build these ideas in, take it and acknowledge the certain behaviors, do lead to better academic success. you don't have to all have deck success but it's almost a luxury to be debating what that actually means. build in different frameworks of confidence in institutions and we do do better with education policy. >> all the groups identify, including mormons and jews, do believe in an american dream, in a way that not all americans do, which is interesting. mormons really want to be part of that experience and jews, too, and they were so persecuted.

>> they may even exaggerate their belief in the system. that is they may have exaggerated beliefs in our fair or how democratic the system is and seems to be no doubt in part that belief in institution, which is part -- it's a necessary sea part to make it, seems to be an important success of the groups...

>> i think we have a problem on our hands and cannot have a frank conversation to get the information and we need to anti-poverty programs and the families who want to know how to help their kids. >> a you going to be the person that goes into pork african-american communities that you were not so -- trying hard enough with impulse control or superiority? >> no. i think the support the

whole thesis of ford's early childhood intervention there are great ones that exist. >> you are being a little facetious bennett it is not just children and even single parents or grandparents with a sense of motivation or long-term perseverance. there are not many things but not trying to make it seem easy but with the history of so little success but white tie your he hands behind your back but talk about mitt romney this is so interesting. one of the down sides from the triple package culture and i grew up in this is by

virtue of the insecurity that you have i am not accepted well enough. i need to meet my parents' expectations or show america we are better with the morgan case. that could force people to a narrow form of success that we are criticized of championing because that coulter -- culture we could only be of a doctor or lawyer we have to be on wall street in the younger generations almost all uniformly feel the unpleasant pressure we see this in the asian-american in committee people will not read this because you thank you are reinforcing the minority models stereotype because the whole idea is that first is applied to

something better applied to what you care about. with the academy award for best director. and broke back mountain was revolutionary. his father said now you could be an academic. >> host: i want to go to that you are a very couple which of you has the better triple package. >> no doubt. is my wife. >> it is generational. i don't know anything about you but i was raised that my parents had a strong sense of exception and i think is the shield against discrimination.

when i was little in indiana one guy was making fun of my accent i used to have a chinese accent and she said why do you care? we come from a much longer civilization. who cares? in an impulse control and discipline but he says he got none of that from his family or parents. >> what i brought to the table was the insecurity. [laughter] but one last point on the inner-city education policy policy, we fall into a trap of the false dichotomy that the right wing wants to say the institutions are great the a meritocracy works perfectly all about individual choices then you get into the extreme polar

opposite view it is all about institutions and structural problems and discrimination nothing anyone does can make a difference given those problems you have to be grown up enough it is not one or the other by both. we need all kinds of education reform but the individual side. but these problems exist people go in with the ages of three and four with the education in school they teach what led if it was a triple package group. >> i think we can generalize

more of very good case for the triple package but people never want to talk about this because nobody wants to go there. i think the second element in security coupled with exceptional lissome goes a long way and joking about the insecurity but talk about the holocaust interbreed the baby for a generation jewish-american but you have a part of your history. >> if i talk about myself, yes. i think our count does better to explain to wish success than any other kind that i know. i myself think those studies are not yet to believable i do not take that you but

what we say is true. then is this a group that replenishes the insecurity then to make it into the exception of the decline in and sticking with my own father, up for a butcher comes over my father is growing up he should be getting more comfortable and more relaxed and all of a sudden when he is well for 13, the holocaust happens. for a whole generation of jews that should be getting comfortable instead they have the holocaust. if anything could revive a sense of insecurity in the group is that. now there is israel for all later generation with

anti-semitism. you know, they identify with israel they still worry what happens there. with israel in peril i think coming jews say this to each other i think there is the element of nervousness and anxiety in the psyche but i stink is widespread. >> host: i don't want to belabor the question but is will lead tuesday that huguenots? i am a jew i don't have any deep sense of insecurity anyone is coming for me or worried about israel. is it likely would never capital i have got will dissipate? >> we do raise that possibility. there have been studies recently suggesting for the first time jewish academic

decline. we don't know if that translates into lower income soared on success with the typical decline story but for the first time with lots of metrics when jews used to outperform everybody it not doing it anymore to the same degree in the theory is in the '70s over yom kippur for nell said jews are more secure than they have been over the last 2,000 years. so we would predict or expect decline. >> but we have different views. going back to your definition of success. because of language barriers if you look at the accounts of the jews in the 1920's they sound like chinese

immigrant parents. you have to be a doctor, played the pilot -- piano or violin because those were respectable thing this. you cannot be a poet. my dad is so disdainful of that but now maybe you are not with the physics olympiad but the part that we have not documented their early there are other forms that jews don't have a language barrier. they are directing movies, writers, environment al transformation and become the it is not just the physics olympiad. you cannot speak the language said you could do numbers. >> host: teeeighteen you wrote a very famous book

about parenting of your daughter's. did the triple package come out of that book at all? >> believe it or not we started to think about this book before that in 2008 i talked a seminar with a focus on individual groups at the end of the day the book is about individuals but we started to do the research and higher research assistants then we were interrupted by the global firestorm after things settle down we worked on it again. and i have written books about market dominate authority so i am interested in successful minorities since the 2000's. >> host: how did you divide the work? >> i am the discipline to one.

i managed all the research i love culture and the digging into the sources did reading more sources he is the analytical thinker i am a morning person he was a night person we would never see each other. we have opposite personalities. >> i am also the worst person to take criticism so i would do writing she would edit then books were being thrown at each other. [laughter] but it was quite in even distribution we both did writing and editing. >> i am interested in facts he wants the analytical framework. but wheat interacted but with what i enjoy doing.

so to pull together the studies that was pretty interactive jokes aside but how do we go about this systematically? >> i also have been writing for almost 20 years about america so also see in the countries of western europe to get more and more interested in living in the present from modern psychology to modern art aspect opposed to the future or the past or both. >> host: either. what culture does is orient people in time his son ask them to direct to the future some tell their members live in the now. it is interesting

development of western culture live in the present has become more appealing the connection between that and this book is the triple package seems to turn people into deferred gratification so it is those two interests of american culture to live in the moment. >> but we all want to seize the moment. one of my favorite parts that never comes up is that the yen's jed rubenfeld notes the declaration of independence and the constitution are from completely different impulses. it is about the pursuit of happiness and to your view on the constitution? >> it was interesting time

so the declaration of independence or the pursuit of happiness it is a live in a moment document but it attempts to restrain people as an attempt to tie its hands behind its back in 20 years or 50 years you cannot violate these rights or extend your powers that is what the constitutional structure is. he thought any moment they could do what they wanted but the constitution is like "the triple package" with the declaration live in a moment continentality. of both elements have been part of america from the beginning with the triple pack a hard-working and it fitted the economic failure. this is something new that american recreates through the new free-market capitalism. everyman or individual is to

be measured a success or failure for you have a new kind of insecurity but this is the analysis we get with the last chapter. >> host: i am now fixated if we are looking forward or backwards. what is striking with the tea party movement is a strain of american political thinking on the right living 50 years or 100 years ago. what happens when you get hung up baum that? with you are wrapped up in the past? but according to what we are saying there should be to pathology hung up on the past or too much in the present moment what is more productive for prosperity to achieve your long-term goals is to have the outlook to

decide what you see what your goals are you write your own script did have the wherewithal of the long term goal. whether one is plates definition of mental illness or the immediate gratification to live in the present. >> host: talk about the amish. one is a strong culture with a lot of strength but not the traditional success speed again highlights how we use our terms. the of this have the most impose control of any group in america. no electricity.

sold in the scriptures from early on. the children cannot read fairy tales. impulse control is one element whether or not superiority complex if you ask them they say absolutely not. humility we don't want our children to go to high school because that has that high spirited this but retouch playfully if it could be superiority based we have the most he ability but with that aside with the insecurity highlights how to use the term. we talking in the sense of a system. but to others here weather in my family or a society like the amish live by is their creed is we don't accept the modern world values will go whatever people to feel they need to strive in to what society demands because we reject those values.

so not only as we define its but their religion is based on that. there is a fascinating sections that kids are playing little league baseball and tell they want to win but you cannot be competitive. but they are among the poorest groups because they don't want to be successful in that way. >> certain cultures where striping is considered wrong there is a religious support it is considered sinful. if you look at the tv white protestant society is not sinful but something you would not want to to show you were interested to climb >> although the original work ethic. >> but i am talking the

20th century. in these cultures they lack the element as we define it. they teach to have security with their traditional practices. so feeling you are not good enough ian you have to do more. so you should feel pretty enough. similarly in a different way , privileged whites they don't have to prove themselves but with both cases talk about eaton college they have superiority and also impulse control being exercised. >> but no insecurity.