>> that's a good question. what popped into my mind with the other dh lawrence taylor's never trust the tailor, trust detail. detail of carnegie is this, carnegie overthrew religion in his life as a young and. he became sort of a nonstick and revolted against his mother's stern protestantism. interestingly in his late eyes, i was say about mid-40s, the last decade or so of his life, he returned to religion, but in a very peculiar sort of way. he did not return in terms of theology or denomination, but he returned to religion almost as a kind of meditation. in the last book, he talks a lot about the usefulness of religion. it's very much in a therapeutic setting. he says you now, and traveling around the country. i often every day take 10 minutes and i find it church. any church will do.

and i go and and i just sit quietly in a think about little dale carnegie in the big cosmos and the sort of makes everything come into perspective. so the tale of carnegie is a little complicated. there is a renewed religiosity on the one hand, but on the other hand it's very much in the vein of therapeutic self-fulfillment brothers and a kind of more traditional protestantism. that is more or less where he ended. he was very close friends i should add that i can clinch the case of norman vincent field. he once described to him had he put it, they were working the same street. they were just working different sides of the street. [applause] thank you very much. >> thank you very much,

professor watson. the book is herself from barnes & noble in the hall. >> thank you very much. >> a tv interview kevin freeman at the political action conference about his book "game plan." the book, mr. friedman discusses economic and financial terrorism and suggests ways for americans to protect themselves. >> kevin freeman, what do you do for a living? >> time and money management, investment management. >> were he writing books security? >> in 2008 when to stop rocket start to collapse, my clients were losing money and i wanted

to understand why, so i started digging into it. i found evidence of financial terrorism in the 2008 collapse. i shared it with friends connected to the pentagon and the guy in the next thing i knew i was a government contractor doing research, which came out in 2009, found unequivocally evidence of foreign terrorism, financial terrorism in the stock market crash. >> resulted in her first book, which came out in 2012. what is the thesis of this book? >> basically when we were doing all sorts of crazy things in our housing bubble and so forth, enemies of the united states, particularly radical islam, elements in russia noticed our vulnerability, economic ama started using church service style techniques to target lehman brothers. aig, citibank, goldman sachs.

and they started using manipulative techniques in the markets with the intent of crushing our stock rocket. tzatziki conspiracy theory, but it's not. hank paulson, former treasury secretary came out in his memoirs and said the russians approached the chinese and said if we dump all of our holdings of american dead now, we can cratered the american economy. in fact, the russians did the chinese did not. but the russians did in that worse in dire substantially. >> you've got a follow-up, "self-help messiah: dale carnegie and success in modern america." >> cybereconomic. and not only did what happen in 2008, 2009, but a guide to the chinese doctrine, which was written in a book called unrestricted warfare by the kernel parties and the pla wrote this. the best way to impede america is the stock market crash. cyberattacks on the

infrastructure ruined in the currency. so i'm not a limit to what happened in 2008, 2009, but i looked forward to what could have been. what i found was the next type of war will face is not going to be shooting more. it's not going to be guns and aircraft carriers. it will be cybereconomic in nature. this is what all of our enemies essay because they don't want to take the enemy head-to-head now. they said will crash the american economy if we get into a war. that's vladimir putin said just recently when he invaded the ukraine and several slaps sanctions on you, his response was you don't want to do that because i can crash or stop market. i can hack your financial system. the very things i read about in 2008 and covered in "game plan," "game plan" then says that that is that they intend to do, what would you as an individual american, how should you protect yourself? word you save, invest?

what do you do with your money? that is the game plan. >> money-management today, are you in the stock market? >> i am. the stock market performs pretty well. i have with me that i carry zimbabwe currency. that is for a 1998 ,-com,-com ma zimbabwe was producing 100-dollar bills you could expand at thomas cook for $30 u.s. now flip it over, that is that they were producing in 2008. their currency collapse. those are 100 trillion-dollar bills not worth 1 penny. despite the fact their currency completely collapsed coming is the best performing stock market in 2008. so i cover in the book, fake currency collapse happens, you don't want to avoid stocks. is a deflation happens, you won't find. so the question is, what kind of economic attack would we be

facing? what are they going to do and how should you respond? that is why disclose "game plan." you look at the fence and say they are going going to pass. if they passed to me what to pass defense. if you want to run, they run defense. the cover of all kinds of economic attacks in all types of investments and how you respond. >> right now, what kind of defense do we have up against such an economic incentive? >> unfortunately, we don't have anything at the national level. general keith alexander outgoing of the nsa has said recently, in fact he was on 60 minutes. basically our enemies know how to greater our financial system and there's nothing they can do to stop it at this point. we can't stop hackers from hacking targets. we can't stop stealing secrets from the nsa. iran has hacked the navy website. we can't totally prevent this. so it's a very complex topic.

it's a new form of warfare that can attack your system. there is very little we can do is a federal level. we are improving. i've been working to several groups in the government trying to figure out solutions to the problem. in general, game plan tells the individual, imagine you're living in honolulu in 1941 and somebody says hybrid today, the japanese are bombing coming is that you should do. but the russians commit ukrainians, north koreans, chinese start attacking it economic, "game plan" tells you how to respond. >> was one piece of advice? everyone in the financial system cisco electronic paired with every $50 if you take a look tronic statements. don't do it. if you do it, print out actual statements. give a personal life experience example.

in 2001 when the trade towers were hit, i had a line of credit one of the companies deny access to have to pay payroll because all the money dried up in 2001. the bank said not to do. i had to go with my statement and convinced jpmorgan chase of the time it was bank one, to let me have access to the line of credit on all the records were down. if i hadn't had a paper statements, could not done it. that is one thing. keep copies of your stock rockridge statements, bank accounts and so forth because of the whole system is down for a week or 10 days or 14 days, how you pay your mortgage? have you pay your bills? that's one solid individual piece of advice. another one is keep more than two days of food in your pantry in today's of water. if the electric and were hacked and taken down, it might take a week, 10 days bonkers over a series. keep a little food supply on

hand. were the only nation. we live in a just-in-time society, but we are the only nation in the road to does not access to food or water beyond a day or two if the pumps stop working. i'm not talking about being crazy and moved into the basement of the proper and all that. by the way, prosperous and less and less crazy to me all the time. but i'm not talking about that. keep in a week or 10 days worth of food supply on hand on a regular basis because if something did go down, unique two d. you need to have latter. this could have been from hurricane sandy. he could have been from hurricane katrina. it could have been from flood or fire for a change event, which i cover in the book, which is a natural solar flares that could wipe out or electric grid for a short time at least and maybe a long time. so practical advice number two is keep a little bit of food and

a little bit of water on hand. >> in the subtitle, you say this is a common cybereconomic attack. fun is it coming? >> i don't know. but i can tell you with almost 100% certainty it will come. but if 10 million hacking attempts a day. everybody in the government, most sides of the political aisle football you we will have a cyberpearl harbor at some point. al qaeda has recruited some of the best hackers in the world. the ukrainians, supreme leader of iran went down and showed the iranian news networks, showed all the hackers at their training and their intention is to attack the united states and allies. to see an electronic army in 2013 hacks the associated twitter feed msn on a false tweet the white house had been hit. the trading programs at the new york stock exchange picked up on

it and immediately stopped 1%. it is totally fake. what if they did that in conjunction with the terrorist attack? what would have been? that could be down 10% instantly. the plaintiffs will face a terror attack. it is inevitable and we need to prepare for it. >> kevin freeman's first book with secret weapon, how economic terrorism brought down the u.s. stock market and why can happen again. how to protect yourself -- "game plan: how to protect youself from the coming cyber-economic attack" is his booktv and c-span2.

>> biographer diane jacobs' next issue because the relationship between first lady, said bates and her sisters, elizabeth shaw peabody and merrick ranch. the sisters from weymouth, massachusetts dating correspondents throughout their lives, sharing their personal setbacks and achievements. this is about 45 minutes. [applause] >> can you hear me now? good. i am so flattered i have this overflowing audience. anyone who is uncomfortable, soon you will be getting chairs. that is what i hear. well, as carolyn said, this is my book, "dear abigail," a book

of 318th century women. merrick ranch, abigail adams and elizabeth shaw peabody. i know everybody in this room will no doubt know who abigail adams says. in fact, i feel probably living in this environment, you could tell me a lot about abigail that i still don't know. but why, as caroline also said, why is it abigail is the one name we all know? it really is because of her man, because she married john adams. being here today, i feel sort of like i've come home because i've come to john and abigail's home and also home that all three sisters spent a lot of time in. the other two sisters that i think we know less about irq in

my book are, even though they didn't bury presidents, they are equally important in the remarkable women. first there is the older sister and she was stored at the uncrowned queen of the family because in the puritan family, hierarchy that is very important and she was born first, so she was the first war in. she was very important. especially after her brother was disinherited by their father, she was really the one who inherited the first son's role because there was no brother. when she grew up, she proved herself to be a wonderful administrator. even though she was a woman in couldn't be elected to any position, she was the de facto mayor of quincy and her husband

would be appointed to positions, but everyone would know mary would take care of everything. and then there is elizabeth shaw peabody, it always thought neither of her sisters gave her enough attention and was constantly clamoring, listen to me, listen to me. she was also the most literate and best educated of the three of them. she had the ambition when she was young to grow up to become a published writer, a published letter writer was the golden age of letter writing. she wanted her letters to be published lakebed and the seven days. i'll let you read the book to find out whether that actually have been. but she did become, with her husband, the founder of the second coeducational pool in america. so that itself is pretty impressive. the working title for my buck is

three full court and i still think of this book is threefold cord because it speaks to the interwoven nests of these three sisters and the intensity of their bond. a threefold cord is a reference to ecclesiastes and it speaks to of course it's bond over three times in the theater hard to break a record that is wound of her three times. the systems referred to threefold chords throughout their lives. abigail rustem thing i felt was particularly moving in a letter to her son, john quincy. she said never was there a stronger connection, affection, than that which bind your mama and her two sisters. and as i was writing this book, i wanted dag of sister had to

resonate. i wanted the reader to know that while i'm speaking very specifically about three biological sisters, living 250 years ago, that's what is true for them can also be true for women today who are biologically related or perhaps best friends. so i went into more detail. i said a little bit on how i came to write this book in the first place. i had just finished a book on mary wellstone crash. i have loved living in the late 18th century. i loved all the drama. i even loved the guillotine, the revolution, particularly a loved the ideas. i loved but sad to say and i

loved that the character was writing about how bad all of these people. so i thought, okay, let me find some other man or woman and followed them to the same. , francophile as many of my close friends can tell you. so i powwow, if i can think of a french person, then i can just two pairs in the french revolution all over again. but i've been spending a lot of french person who's been in that category. one day a lot of people said to me what you have against americans? i don't have anything against americans. i love americans. i am one. about a week later i was in the shower and all of a sudden, this is true, i remembered a book that i had reviewed for the village voice 15 years earlier

than was called the adams women and which i believe is in the library affair. mostly it was about abigail adams and her daughter-in-law, luisa, married to john quincy. but there is a very tantalizing sections that were about abigail sisters. as i was standing there in the shower with soap coming down my back, i all of a sudden had this image flashed before me of one of the last lines in the epilogue and they said some day somebody would write a biography of the three sisters from wayman. tonight, that's me. there was a lot of work to be done. that moment is always so great. afterwards, the groan, to have the the material to write this book? so i knew that i had the

wonderful massachusetts historical society. i knew that i had this wonderful out of sight and i need to have a lot on abigail. but then my question was, what about mary? i get letters from them? wetted abigail say to them? what did they say to abigail and what do they say to each other? so it first i heard there is a nice collection of elizabeth shaw peabody's younger sister correspondence at the library of congress. i went down to the library of congress and i was delighted because there i found letters from the time when she was a teenager and she was writing her cousin, isaac, and he would give her suggestions about books to read and she would write him back for opinions of the book

and she was very contrary. no matter what he said, she said the opposite. so i thought, wow this is great. i have this really feisty character that i can deal with. also, it was particularly funny because you can see how a isaac was sort of beating her. at one point he writes here about madam disseminate. you must really love this collection because you are just like her. she didn't think much of mary jay neither do you. well, not only was elizabeth thinking of marriage, she was thinking of irene isaac. she was really very strong in her reply to that. so i had elizabeth and i had also elizabeth when she grew older and there are tragedies in her life and i will leave you to read the book to find them out. but there was mary cranch.

what do we have an mary? she was the oldest. i no abigail looks up to her, but what else is there about her and did she have any ideas? i went to the albany institute of history and art and there is a wonderful collection they are. among the letters that they had as a letter where she says to abigail, don't you think it's silly that men think that we don't have the same intellect that they have? .today, like remember the ladies, may seem very obvious to us. at the time, it was anything but obvious. in fact, everyone presumed bases in europe as well, but particularly in the colony that a woman was given to things. and intellect in a and if she used her mind, no wonder she couldn't have children. and she bore children, then no wonder she was so silly and

could only think about shopping in things like that because she had dirty used her one and could. so mary is saying about the end gendered mine meant a lot to me and i realized i was to learn a lot more as well as abigail and elizabeth on the powers of women, the rights of women of mary wellstone craft. the intellectual capacity of one and they all had the feeling that there was a strong intellectual capacity of women. all of them also tutored their daughters in the same way that they tutored three sons. so i had a lot of research material i saw and i was going to have to pick and choose because the massachusetts historical society as well as the two other libraries have so much information that i was really going to have to decide

what to write about. but i hope i did manage to do that. after i came out with these three characters than i thought okay, i have enough research material, then i had the problem of how it's going to to structure the book. i've written two other biographies, with one character, and it was quite easy. the structure that is not the writing of the biography is never easy. but the structure was a cassette row from one person's point of view. now all of a sudden i had three people and so i had to b.c. in the world through three different is. so i thought i would read you a little bit for the first chapter of my book to give you an idea both of how i approach the sisters and also who the sisters were.

it would've been obvious to anyone who met them that abigail, mary and betsy were sisters. the mary was darker in color and betsy was the slowness, all were small and slender with oval faces, narrow decisive mounts, smooth as this, shiny brown hair and clear skin. ..

rather than the moon or she would be impossible to live with, abigail observed. mary with her pleasing ways in most like her mother. she received at the neglect of her mind. we have no one to point us to it. she reminded abigail when you both out of the parsonage. our parents felt the necessity of teaching us from for quality and left the rest to nature. on the outside at least mary was a beautiful first board will abigail was ultimately rebellious and wild. she will make a very bad for a very good woman, a family friend told her. obviously, suspecting the first. abigail committed cycle to proposing her mother's authority. or as she saw, made clear she

was and how her mother can matter most innocent request. abigail was often sent away for long visits to her grandmothers house. she sometimes thought she loved more than her own mother because grandmother quincy did not compare her to marry. oorder to serve more than once f a crime. then it was betsy was just as high-spirited as abigail and even less frivolous. she could not run off to her grandmothers because she was the youngest. also unmarried and far less investors rather, billy, always have duty to perform at home. where billy wasted his chances to learn, she grasped every free moment to read, not just enthusiastically, not with a cultivated taste that would have ranged wider, she was sure, if one duty or another wasn't always calling her from her father's books.

so that's my approach to the three sisters. i know just give you a little taste and i hope you a little feeling of who they are, vis-à-vis each other. these are my main characters, but they are not my only characters. and as i started writing the book i realize there are two other very important characters in this book. and one of them is the one i was most determined to keep out of the book, john adams. i felt so much has been said, and wonderful book about john adams, who needs to add anything? whether realize was i needed him because so many of the great events that happened not only in abigail's life, but in the lives

of the other two sisters, revolve around what john adams was doing. so i thought, okay, i'm going to take him on and i hope he hasn't overwhelmed the book. i don't think he has but i feel like he's a very important part of it. i also hope i have added something fresh to what we already know about john adams because we know what a wonderful husband he was, how devoted he was to his children, but i hope that i'm giving you a feeling for what he was like as a brother-in-law, particularly to mary's husband, richard, who was a very, very close friend of his. he knew richard before he knew abigail. and also as an uncle. and john adams basically known as someone who would not do favors. is best friends would say, can you give me some kind of little

job in government, you know, even his son-in-law, he says i'm not going to help them until the very end. however, for some reason he felt so warmly towards his nephews that when one of them come and this one was the one that mary said he has so many oddities he will never be able to do anything in public life, he might as well stay home and read, but john adams said no, he's my nephew, and he got him a job as his secretary. probably the only job he could've gotten, but he performed so well in that job and went on to have a fruitful life. and his other nephew that -- mary cranch his son, william, one of the been that judges that was appointed by john adams. so john adams is one character. my book begins in 1755 when

britain imposes the first of its punishing acts on the colonies, the stamp act. and it ends 35 years later when adams loses his bid for second term as president of the united states to thomas jefferson. and abigail goes home towards history at last. at times are my this character because they are important to all the sisters. of course, abigail who was frequently in the limelight with john, but really no less during the revolution certainly to mary and elizabeth. they were equally excited, terrified, by the battle of boston, and they were equally as tarnished and overjoyed when the french made -- america has one

of the revolution at last. so these times are very important to the book. they are the times that they lived through. and also what was important for me was that they lived through the times through the ideas of the times. and because of what was happening, because in america we were getting an opportunity to start a nation a new, they had opinions on what it was like to live under a monarch, and they had ideas on what the ideal nationstate should be. and i still found that there were two very large impacts on their vision, on all of their vision. and one was the enlightenment. then already the book that the

enlightenment, they had already risen, for instance, with his views on equality and his views on the general wealth or in the event a very, very big impact and they felt strongly about the quality. abigail at one point said to john, i really don't understand how someone in virginia can have the same passion we have for revolution for the rights of man and women, because they keep slaves. so they have very strong ideas about equality. on the other hand, they were puritans. and so puritans, the most important thing in the world was water. and water was particularly necessary. and in order for there to be water, they'd believe -- order, there have to be hierarchy so

that is why the oldest child was the most important. and that was why one man had to bow to another man, and one family had a better pew in church than another. so these two were competing with each other in their views of what the idea of nation states should be. i have my characters now, and i wanted to be an equal opportunity biographer. i wanted to give each of them equal space, and if anything, pushed abigail a little to the side and say, okay, you've already had your turn, let's year about the others. and what i wanted to do was in each chapter i wanted to divide it into three, andy one-third on abigail, one-third on elizabeth, one-third on mary. i tried that for about four chapters and it was a fiasco.

i said there's no way can we are getting no narrative out of this. this is not working. so what i decided to do was to let the story pulled me along. and in one chapter you'll find it's abigail and she's going off to paris and she's going off to london, and i'm trusting that everyone will realize, particularly because of the letters as she went home to her sisters, that they're also embroiled in this, and they were. when abigail would write a letter it was no she's going to write platoon the whole neighborhood, and mary had a great pleasure of having everyone important in the neighborhood come over and she would read of abigail's letter. -- we've allowed. so i let abigail go off when she did, and then the other chapters, chapters when mary is trying to find a minister for the first church, first congregationalist church of quincy, and she's the most important person to and, in

fact, even john adams thinks, said she's the most important person in quincy. and when they abigail catches him opening a letter that mary has written to her. and she is furious that she says, how can you opened a letter? it's not just any letter. it's from mary, and there's nobody who knows more than mary that i'm interested in. so they were all involved in the. fm there's a lot on elizabeth. she's the sister who endorse the most. she's the prettiest in the beginning, and i probably said the most bill is a wonderful picture out of my book at the end. she was always a magnificent looking woman. and she was very much in love when she got married, and then things happen. and so i spend quite a bit of time with her as well.

so i turned out not to be an equal opportunity biographer, but i'd like to read you a little bit about, and i sort of share abigail seale, a little bit about health abigail felt on equality. and this is in a chapter that is right after john adams has been elected vice president and abigail has left mary behind in quincy and got off to new york. two weeks later very explicitly acknowledged the whitecap between her in life and her sisters. you are in the midst of a busy worker i am almost out of it, she would abigail, who it's even arrived in new york and finding john far healthier than he letter to anticipate. john was always health abigail that he was dying so she would come and join him, not do what she thought she had to get at home. but he was fine and she had been

swept up in a social world. the contras in the lives. after two weeks with no booklet and the lead to a general statement to the people she loved. i was a i have a favor to request of all my near and dear friends. it is to watch over my conduct and if at any time they perceive any alteration in the with respect to them, i beg they will have the utmost freedom to deal with it. i do not feel within myself the least disposition of the time but in the mankind is prone to deceive themselves, she added. but a classic court. >> reflected even deeper view of connections. no stroke of left could separate sisters. there's also intertwined from birth. so abigail found a perfectly

natural to circumvent john's approval and using her daughter as a go between since mary all the profit money she could spare from her own relatively small budget. she did not have a large budget. anticipating their systems anguish reminded her to not talk about obligation, refers the matter and ask yourself if you would not do as much for me or for elizabeth koshy might've added. it was not a democratic process. nor does she think much of equality on earth. hierarchy guaranteed order in which is crucial to the survival of mankind but family rent on a loftier system of government. she and her sisters differed only in birth order where merry reigned supreme. otherwise they always have been and always would be equal,

harbingers of the more perfect world to be. so i'd like to hear any questions you may have for me. yes. [inaudible] >> i thought i made it clear this time. character was the times. yes. >> you mentioned that the school -- >> the academy which was in new hampshire. so i think the first was exeter and this was the second. and really what was so interesting about it was that first of all, the sisters have sent their children to elizabeth's first husband, and then their children sent their

children to her second husband's school. but they didn't, they would write each other and say this isn't because of either husbanded this is because our history is so littered and she instilled a love of reading in them. so it was a boarding school. and it turned out to be very nice. grandchildren, great-grandchildren went to be educated there. >> how did you get such insight? >> millions of letters. i just named a few but they were just so many letters, and they really did love each other so much. it was a good think i had elizabeth being competitive at some point because otherwise i would have had a very dull story of these women who just couldn't do enough for each other. and mary really just felt, she

could feel, they said we feel each other thing. and mary said at one point, we are better wise than anyone will ever know. and they saw themselves really as equals and submit was very happy to do everything for abigail's house when abigail was a way being the wife of the first ambassador to england, and then ultimately the second president of the united states because she felt yes, you know, she's also having such a hard time i have to help her out. and on the other hand, have become filled oh, i have to sed seale gone from low to add to send my sisters anything i can because i'm having this opportunity. so they really did feel so connected. [inaudible]

>> phoebe, she was a slave for their father and he gave them the choice about whether they would free her work after a slave and they freed her. and abigail had them living in her house when she was in europe and phoebe handled the house for her. [inaudible] >> under merry supervision, absolutely. mary watched everything. they were all just these master administrators. yes. >> it seems to me that times where -- abigail and john obviously seem to recognize that the times, the times they were in was a major role in all of their lives. did the other women in -- >> oh, very much.

and richard cranch it was mary's husband was in the state legislature. he was a judge so he was also very much part of what was happening. but they saw the times as really they felt we have a chance to make a nation. first of all, let's get through this revolution. let's when it. and that's totally preoccupied them. and then afterwards when they had won, there was how we going to run this? what i going to do? we are starting a new. we have a chance and they had already the greeks and the romans. so they spoke in a very high level about what their choices were. [inaudible] >> well, there is one whose very famous to me, and i was extremely lucky when i am in, i

am actually several biography groups but i called when writing women's lives, and when i first announced that i was doing this book, the head of the similar came up to me and said, you know, i am the five great granddaughter of mary cranch. so we have now become very good friends and she's a wonderful woman, kathy chamberlain, but she said i have all of this information. she private diaries of mary's daughter, and so i really, she was just a major help to me. and then suddenly she's been so nice. i just signed nine books for her. she went to the independent bookstore near her house and got his nine books and she sent it to all of her relatives. so anyhow, i'm very happy to be associated with them. yes. >> did john ever court mary?

>> no. no, she came in the house after richard was already courting mary. richard actually, richard cranch is the one that everybody gives credit for educating, forgetting these girls to read important books. they were very curious. they went into their father's library, but they had no one to guide them. and richard cranch western england any given one day because their father was the minister and yet the most books in the community, and so he came for dinner. and i did because he initially fell in love with 15 your marriage, just because he was a great guy, he said okay, girls, he came back into to the event and that's why it is about, was the youngest at the time, is the best educated of all of them because she had the longest time with him.

[inaudible] >> i got a lot of information from this site, i'm trying to think, i probably did. and also i got a lot from the former minister of the church. i'm not sure how much i got from the quincy library. i'm sure i got something spent how about the first national library? >> yes. oh, yes, i definitely did. and so much was in the massachusetts the circle society. so sometimes there was duplication. >> did they ever argue between each other, major argued? >> major argument was when they were young. it was with elizabeth. mary and abigail were always joined at the hip, but elizabeth was six years younger than abigail, and so they really felt like, at a given particular felt

like she should listen to us. and so they had very strong -- not mary so much. mary i think kind of stayed out of it but abigail had very strong ideas about who elizabeth should marry and who she should marry. so she was urging her to come to boston. she had some ideas, some suitor in boston and she urged elizabeth, oh, yeah, it's a great time for you to come to boston, i'm here and so-and-so communicant with the implication of that so-and-so was there as well. and didn't elizabeth fell in love with a man she married, john shaw, and for some reason, the or think i could find in any of the letters was he was a calvinist and they were anti-calvinist. and, but she hated john shaw. john didn't. john said congratulations, your sister is getting married. and she said i wouldn't congratulate her in a million

years. and she didn't. she went to the wedding but she never wrote elizabeth when she first moved to where she lived with her husband. mary wrote, oh, how is everything? like a little mother in, but not abigail. finally, but then john was sent off to europe and she was, and abigail was devastated. and elizabeth, who really, she could read people very well, and at that point she wrote to abigail, not say why haven't you written a? why don't you care? by a julie's as nice as our sister but she said, for some people this would be a wonderful thing to get rid of the husband, but for you, this is really a tragedy and i just want to send my sympathy. she lived a lot with the two of them. and she said, this is awful.

i just want you to know that i feel it for you. and at that point, abigail got off her high horse and she said, oh, well, how are you? how is your husband, mr. shaw? i'm thinking of you as well. so it was resolved. always, think because abigail was not married, she was the middle sister and she wanted to be older than someone. and at one point when she was in europe, she heard from mary that elizabeth was sick. and elizabeth who still can't get up and take care of the borders and students, and she wrote her this letter, you can't do this. you must stay in bed. i'm going to write your husband, too. this is ridiculous. and then she thought about it, and her children were boarding with elizabeth at that time. so she felt, wow, maybe i've

been a little hard. so she wrote to elizabeth and said, i'm sorry about the tone i took. i basically know you're a grown woman. i just care about you so much. and elizabeth wrote back, because elizabeth was always like -- she wrote back of course i never missed to anything you've ever said can even when we were younger. to be calling on your eldership. i knew is always because you loved me so much. so there continued to be a little bit of rivalry, but very, very low as they have gotten older. >> it sounds like abigail had held growing up. how did she adjust it when she got married to john adams and

bringing up kids with no help around the house? did you like it or was it difficult? >> they all were housekeepers but they all had, somehow they have their daughter companies are i think that the mother, and they know that their mother and even their father came to their houses to help them. and then their daughters were raised to work in the house with them. they were tutored, so their minds were taken care of. but they also helped in the house was washed a, and i explore that particularly with betsy branch, the daughter of mary cranch. abigail had brought servants to europe and the dq's servants from time to time, but abigail brought servants to europe and shiva this i is a woman and i

meant i really trust and they can take care of everything. then she arrived in paris and she found out you have to have somebody to each little thing, so when does your hair, so when does which -- so much address on. somebody does one room. somebody claims another and. almost literally. and so she was very -- this is ridiculous, i have to pay them a fortune and he was out of the money that john was getting paid so that's why they never had that much money. >> how did abigail and the her sons of allah some? >> well, it was not something anyone talked about. they were two things she didn't talk about, and one of them was a call is him. because the brother had died of alcoholism, and when her son became so ill, all they said was he's a problem. and then it became clear that he was dying and she dealt with it

much better than john. john said, i'll have nothing to do with them with his vices and whatever, but i found a very wonderful letter from john to their youngest son after charles had died, saying my presidency was nothing. i would've given my life for charles to live. so we know how deep the affection was, but it was just such a horrible thing. and then the other thing that you didn't mention was if somebody coughed. if anyone coughed, he just ignored it. if they sneezed, it was all right, but if you cost it might mean you have tuberculosis. he would never, particularly in other would've mentioned that someone was coughing. you might say they have a fever, and then way down the road you

would find out, i mean, just the person had to be just about dead for people to say, fat consumption. >> you mentioned briefly a little while ago, but you write about in your book abigail's grandmother, quincy, and her relationship with her and i probably it was her grandmother that gave her her independent spirit. did her two sisters have the same relationship with the grand of? >> no. i think abigail had a special relationship it has abigail was a bad child. my mother had to send her away. so abigail, and also it's easy to respect a grandmother. i think there was a lot of spirit in the mother as well, but it's easier to have respect and it's easier as a grandmother to be more forgiving than as a mother. but the other sisters d