piece of legislation and senator muskie the committee chairman had a rule that we would not do a major piece of legislation without a member of the other party being the principle co-sponsor. you can do it. bob is right about the social media and cable news. i mean those guys are a disaster for good sensible public debate but you also need leadership and unique leadership -- i mean who are the great giants of the senate today? i don't see very many. and frankly unique residential leadership. we have had it twice in my lifetime. one was ronald reagan with whom i disagreed and the other was bill clinton and both times you had successful presidency and i might also add that both came to the white house with an agenda they fought for that challenge their own parties and change their own parties. >> now for everyone i'm going to use my moderator discretion.

we are going to ask them a short question but then to our panel we will have to get grief responses. would you ask your question please? >> governor ehrlich the social democracies of europe by many metrics are providing better quality of life for their people. >> not the freedom metric. >> not the freedom dimension. we pride a market approach to the american people and that seemed to have succeeded in providing a better light to the american people on top of the pyramid. what freedom is a measure of quality of life and is at the perception that you think of

european democracies? >> is it's fascinating to see this equally as income inequality becomes a great mantra. you go to class warfare every time because you go to the person making $40,000 a year but what is fascinating about this whole thing despite all the tremendous tax increases and the progressive new taxes and obamacare is stimulus and all that sort of stuff income inequality has increased during the obamacare is so i would submit to you respectfully that higher taxes and you didn't build that degrading the sense of entrepreneurism and freedom which is what we have always been about. my buddy over here had a comment earlier about equal opportunity outcomes. the democrat --

democrats are about equal opportunity. sometimes you fail and sometimes you fail a bunch of times but the government is not there to hold your hand every time. >> let's move to our met -- next question please maam. >> i'm talking about health care because i have two brothers who died untimely deaths because they didn't have health care so this idea of repealing is repugnant to me. >> repealing what? >> what the that? >> repealing what? >> the affordable care act. my question is ,-com,-com ma in states that don't have enough viable. >> we are going to have to interrupt. >> can you suggest a way to increase that so people in those states have a fair shake at premiums. >> eight barters --

bipartisan idea that should've been part of obamacare is that i think suspending state supervision allowing policies over state lines or you increase choice. choice the markets work including the health care market. >> i want to thank you all for being with us today. sarah pleasure to have governor ehrlich and al from with us and we will be signing books in continuing the conversation so please join us in the activity building. thank you for being at our session. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> that concludes booktv's coverage of the 2014 andapolis book festival in maryland. you can watch all of today's panel again at 1:00 a.m. eastern time.

[background sounds] >> welcome to bend oregon weekend on booktv located in the high desert of central oregon along the river bend is known for its outdoor recreation independent craft breweries. >> handmade books creating, books that are not just the traditional book and so it's more than just the words that are in the book. it's also the structure of the book is also part of the art. the paper that is used whether there is text or no text so it's all of that and it's an unending world to discover and to create and so it's amazing. >> people talk about racism and

it's so big and permeates so much of what happens in daily life everywhere in this country whether people understand it or acknowledge it or not. the challenges of race. what if two people try to understand better issues of race from the perspective of the other? >> dozens of students demonstrated outside as inside the justices questioned attorneys and what legal experts called the biggest student speech case that has been argued in two decades. >> the court decision coming from this case could affect freedom of speech rights for every public school child in public schools across america. >> 's january 2002 was the big

day in the history of juneau and that it was the first time not only in juneau's history but alaska's history the old vic torch run was going to come through town. it was the run-up to the salt lake city olympics and it was a very big civic event and a popular event in town. it was an inch thing a bend in the sense that there was only one way in and out of juneau. you could get there by boat or get there by plane but you get to the city and there's only one road going into juneau and that's on glacier avenue. glacier avenue runs from the airport to downtown juneau and that was the route that the torch was going to take area that morning it was snowing and it was cold and there was a huge turnout. the school district in juneau had excuse almost all the kids from elementary school through high school to line the pathway of the torch run and is the torch runners came down glacier avenue surrounded i camera cars

and pepsi bottling companies handing out pepsi's a kid named joe frederick and 13 of his friends held up a 14-foot banner right across the street from jim douglas high school that said "bong hits 4 jesus." they did this just as the runner with the torch and the camera cars came by. standing across the street was the principal of juneau douglas high school deborah morrison when she saw this banner go up she immediately cross the road with the assistant principal and the custodian and asked the kids conquest told the kids to take the banner down. 13 of them immediately drop the banner and ran off. joe frederick was the instigator of this affair. he stood there and argued with the principal about his first amendment rights saying he was across the street. he was on the public sidewalk. he had the right to hold the banner up andy wasn't going to take it down. the principal gathered up with the help of the two colleagues

ordered joe to meet her in the office and the whole controversy essentially develops from there. what happens is really a matter of debate. it's the subject of serious disagreement. at one point it was sort of a sidebar but it fits in with the timeline. in an early chapter in my book i called rush ayman referring to a famous movie in the 1950s which is the story about a samurai who was killed in a bamboo glade and there are five different versions of the story. you never know exactly what happened. it's presented from different points of view and different perspectives of the individuals. that's exactly what happened in the principals office so it's difficult for me to tell you definitively what happened in the principle's office. from joe's point of view he was interrogating principle back maurice about why she was intruding upon his first amendment rights. he was quoting thomas jefferson

and making the case that he and his friends had the right to banner during the torture -- torch run. he started going to what is called a grid and a great match a student with student penalties and ended up suspending joe for 30 days and as he continued to argue with her he actually went around the desk and looked over her shoulder at the computer that she was working on. she felt intimidated and she had left her door open so the administrative staff could watch. she ratcheted up the penalty and she also added a criminal trespass order which literally bans joe from campus for the duration of his suspension. sojo in his and seminole fashion and by the way going back to after principal morris impose

the penalty she asked him to leave the building and he refused so she and vice principal had to walk joe out of the building to begin his suspension. a couple of days later joe was in the municipal swimming pool parking lot which is immediately adjacent to the high school about 10 feet from the property from which he was banned literally in the face of the administrators. the vice principal and called the police. all of this is by way of -- the weather was a very adversarial contentious relationship between the principal and joe frederick and juneau is isolated and fairly remote. a lot of kids grew up in juneau and at loose ends and don't have a lot to do. joe is one of those kids. he was a little bit more enterprising and started sponsoring concerts and other sorts of activities. a lot of kids run into dead ends and brick walls in juneau and

unfortunately and up doing serious damage to themselves with drugs. at the time we were there and the time this whole situation unfolded there is a serious oxycontin epidemic in juneau. so drugs were on the minds of a lot of the residents in juneau and this banner could be interpreted as drug speech. bomb hits were the first two words so a lot of them said look we have a oxycontin epidemics and these kids are holding up the sinuses bong hits on national television during an event in which we took great pride. a lot of people saw joe is sort of a hero of first amendment rights standing his ground for the rights of students to speech and they would say things like what does "bong hits 4 jesus" mean? for a drink was a lot of help

because he insisted up and nothing that it was a prank designed to get tv time their 15 seconds of fame or whatever. frederick was deliberately opaque about the meaning of the banner but a lot of people held joe up as i say an icon of first amendment speech. another part of the story is deborah morris is something of a recluse. i use that word by sidley. she's not really sociable. she spent a lot of time in the office. she didn't walk the halls and press the flesh with the students. she was seen as kind of remote and the way that played out is here is deborah morris sort of antisocial not having any sense of humor not seeing the kind of irony in the prank. she should've just let it go. joe appealed his suspension and criminal trespass order first of all to the superintendent of schools. the superintendent upheld the penalties. then he appealed to the entire

school board in the school board unanimously upheld the penalties the third stop was the u.s. district court for the district of alaska and joe's sued saying principal morris violated his first amendment rights and asked for monetary damages for the injury inflicted by the principal. john sedwick was the judge who heard the case. he basically sided with the principal on all counts. he said that the principal have the authority to tell joe to take the banner down. he did not uphold the sued for damages and he did it in what is called a summary judgment which is also part of another problematical part of the story because if we are looking at a story that is dividing not only frederick and morris but dividing juneau choosing upsides as to which side was the one they believed or agreed with

john sedwick -- judge sedwick did not help the situation because he never do trial on the facts. he agreed with the principal that is a matter of lawshe of the authority to tell joe frederick to take the banner down. the next up was the ninth circuit court of appeals and typically courts of appeals hear cases in the first instance with a panel of three judges. they don't hear them as an entire court. that is called en banc so three courts of appeals overture jentsch sedwick sided with joe frederick saying he had a first amount right to hold up the banner and then went to this in court and that is how we ended up with morris v. frederick. more. >> frederick is such an important case because the last student rights case was heard in the 80s so it was like a 20 year hiatus between the last case involving student speech

rights and the school authority. the landmark case comes out of the vietnam war. it's called tinker versus des moines and it involves some kids who wore black armbands to school and the des moines public school protesting the war in vietnam and mourning the assassination of john kennedy. the school district told them to take a armbands offer they would be suspended. long story short they didn't take them off and they were suspended. it went off way to the supreme court and by a vote of 7-2 the court famously held that students do not shed their constitutional rights at the schoolhouse gate. that was sort of the baseline however is as they say in the book the tanker decision is tentative and it was not a broad brushed unequivocal endorsement of student rights because what the court said is although students do not shed their constitutional rights at the schoolhouse gate. they have to exercise those rights in a way that does not cause the disruption or violate the rights of other students.

every supreme court decision has always had ambiguities. they are not black-and-white. there are several shades of gray and ambiguities so tanker stood for student rights but exercising nondestructive ways. then along comes a whole series of other cases and i won't necessarily going to do but to answer your question by the time morris versus frederick got to the point it was clear in this balancing between students rights and school authorities that the balance had tipped in direction of school authorities in being able to maintain discipline and pursue the educational issue of school and essentially as we were talking earlier student rights were put in the context of the school and had other responsibilities and obligations. so in the tradeoff oftentimeoftentime s student rights took second place to school authorities and school responsibility.

when joe's sued the school district the aclu joined in the litigation and they hired one of their advising attorneys doug mertz who is a well respected attorney in juneau to represent joe. doug mertz represented joe at the district court level and although it to the supreme court mertz was a member of the supreme court bar and argued joe's case before the supreme court. the school district originally hired a guy named david crosby to be deborah morris' attorney but when it was clear that they lost the ninth circuit court of appeals and the stakes are getting really high they went out and tried to find a high-powered attorney and they found one in canada star. the lewinsky prosecuting attorney, the whitewater prosecuting attorney so ken starr was up against doug mertz before the supreme court.

ken stars the former general of the united states. he hired john roberts the current supreme court justice not only once but twice. in a way it was like david versus goliath before the supreme court. and the way the courtside by a vote of 5-4 was that "bong hits 4 jesus" could reasonably be interpreted as drug speech and as drug speech this principal deborah morris had the responsibility to make sure that it was taken down because it was disruptive. students have rights but those rights have to be executed or exercised in a way that doesn't disrupt other students education or the educational mission. the court basically qualified tanker and said that there is now a drug speech exception. if speech can be reasonably interpreted by the enrolling administrative and is not protected speech and can be

prescribed. the court said this was an extended assembly. what they meant by that was despite the fact the school was technically out in the students have been dismissed they were still on school property and off school property. the event itself was a school sponsored event which extended the authority of the principal and others to the event and across the street on a public sidewalk so they saw essentially a school sponsored event along with which went the authority of the principal to determine whether this was a disruptive speech or not. deborah morris was feeling snake pit. that is not my word. that is david crosby's description of his client and what he meant by that is that after all was said and done she somehow wishes she had somehow never got involved in this because people would come up to her in the grocery store for instance and read her the riot

act or friends she thought were friends with suddenly drop out of her life. she was getting a lot of criticism in the press. she found herself very much unhappy and regretting her whole world in the whole situation. when you think about being sued for damages the school district has an insurance company. if she had lost and their were damages assessed she would have been indemnified by the insurance company but there would have been a judgments against her. legal judgments against you at the lockout. effexor credit rating and your ability to get a mortgage with a whole lot of consequences plus it's a huge stigma. in a word that is exactly how she felt was stigmatized. she thought she had done the right thing by going across the street and interrupting this disruptive event but a lot of people did not see it that way.

she thought that joe was essentially in a way what's the word i want? intimidating is not the right word but essentially had a vendetta against her. both sides took this very personally and she saw joe is essentially carrying out this vendetta against her. she never really understood why. he just didn't let the matter drop. joe unlike deborah morris is not introverted nor shy. he is a very articulate kid. he sees himself as on this moral crusade to defend the rights of students to exercise their first amendment rights. he on the other hand saw deborah morris and dale staley the vice principal and others in the administrative high school carrying out a vendetta against him but they didn't like him because he was an outsider and he was outspoken. he was articulate and they were

essentially out to get joe frederick. there was this clash and that is why title i of the chapter the book, everyone had their version of the story which became t truth and they became a crusade. josiah deborah morris is out to get him and deborah morris saw joe as out to make her life difficult and they were off to the races. what it says is the same thing but a lot of other students rights cases say and that is that student rights are qualified dependent upon the educational context with which they take place and necessarily student rights are limited. they are not the same as an adult burst of men that right which is sort of a difficult pill for a lot of people to swallow because the language of the first amendment is so absolutist. congress call it 10 little words. congress shall make lowdon -- no law abridging the freedom of speech. what part of no lot to you not

understand? the court understands that no law can or must be interpreted contextually so it differs from context to context. in the educational context student rights are dependent upon those rights being exercised in ways that don't disrupt the educational mission. that means drug speech and joe frederick case and glued and -- and matt frazier's case and that means the school newspapers publishing controversial articles they can be censored by the teacher in the principal. that means if the kid goes out for sports they can be subjected to random nonsuspicion drug tests. all of those cases which figured into add up to the principle that in the context of the school environment students first amendment and fourth amendment rights occupy a lower level second-tier.

>> my name is julie winter and i am interim director at atelier also called a6 and we are in bend oregon. we are a nonprofit organization and we are -- our mission is to advance printmaking and book arts as vital contemporary art form so we do that through taking book projects with local authors and we do that through our workshops for students, high school students adults and we do that through bringing in artists and having workshops with artists coming in and doing different book arts or printmaking. book argues handmade books and books that are made that are not just a traditional book so it

can be books that are unbound or bound. all sorts of different structures from accordion to flags to tunnel books to traditional bound books that lay flat when you open it. so it is the book and art altogether and it's all handmade it's more than just the words that are in the book. it's also the structure of the book is also part of the art. the paper that is used and whether there is text or no text so it's all of that and it's an unending world to discover and to create so it's amazing. >> this is another book the most recent book and it's written by ellen waterston. it relates to her trip on the day santiago and tom schultz is

the illustrator for this. he and alan waterston collaborated in doing the drawings that would go with her poetry. this is strictly interesting page because allie says she got the idea to do the book after hiking the trail when she saw a map of it and it reminded her of a woman stretching across northern spain on this ogre mage. and then ron drew the map and also this overlay which is a woman superimposed on this so as we close this page it shows a woman on the map and his interpretation. the artist comes in with a vision and they have their writing and then also when you are working in collaboration so ron schultz who did the illustrations had both the inspiration of what alan

waterston is telling in a writing but also his inspiration that he brings to it influence by what she is describing to him so he does the drawings and she says oh yes that works and that goes together. i like that so it is collaborative. it's not the author just directing necessarily how the whole book goes so it's in that collaboration and then you head east artist -- each artist the typographer laying out how they are setting the image and the type on the page in the letterpress artist so it really is a collaborative process. >> this is the original drawing, one of the original drawings. this is just a painting. the pen drawings are then covered into a transparency and faithfully reproduces the pen work and that transparency is used to burn a photosensitive plate and that is what we have

here. so from that point after the plate has been created then there's the process of inking the plate so i'm using this kind of tile grout spreader to spread the angst to the surface. in this case incorporated is below the surface of the plate so the image will be held in the lines that are etched below the surface. ..

>> this whole process, every step of it has to be done in this way. so, then i have used the same material that we use for bridal veils, it's a soft and pliable cloth. and i will gently rub away the bulk of the ink on the plate. and you can kind of see how the images become more and more clear as i work. okay. so i don't want to press too

hard with any of these materials. we don't want to take the ink out of the low point of the play. once the book of the ink is off. i use pages from the telephone book and gently work over the surface. again, taking more ink off of the plate. and through this process, as the ink is removed, it becomes easier and easier to move across the surface. so it is ready to print. so we will walk on over to the press. because the plate on the back is a steel plate, there is a magnet here that will hold it in place. i will place it down on the template here as i line it up. and then on this template i have lines for where the plate those

and then for where the plate demonstrate so always be centered in the paper. okay. all right. and we put a sheet of news print right here just to keep any ink from getting on the blankets. and then we run it through. [machine running]

>> okay. so there is our print area so it is the same process for every print. that is one of the labor-intensive aspects of this project. it is a cross and people are working on every aspect frontpage design to letterpress printing and illustration printing and the printing of the book. it all involves craftsmanship or it. >> i want to tell you a little bit about this book by carol buckaroo. it is a book that i am the author of. it's a handmade book with lots of support from studio members to get it accomplished. in this case in a juniper box which was made especially for us by the opportunity foundation.

and they did just a grand job. we have put in with the wooden box is about and also information on this original book. it starts with -- the whole idea starts with pat clark. i had written an article about ron miller, and he is a fourth-generation buckaroo. i wrote the article for the high desert turtle. she said lets you above. and so i was really excited about it and started digging out how to go about it. the first thing that i did was write the story and then to put it together, i ordered some cow hides from north carolina. and they had the hallmarks of what the animal had lived through, some barbed wire commissars come it marks that had been healed. and we like that aspect.

and so we cut out the leather cover. so this binding itself is called italian hostage. we have five signatures and i will explain what those are. so the closure goes into a little loop to keep it all together. the pages were hand one individually. it is about 100 pages. so we took a large sheet of paper, and then we actually ripped it to size. each page has been handled quite a few times. in the beginning page is horsehair. and that is the end pages for it. and i want to tell you about the signatures.

it's a group of pages that are folded together. i am trying to find the back of it. here we go. we have five signatures and that is and how it that the book together with the pages. and so one piece of paper, which if you can see it, we call it our little horse because it was made by bennett miller and she drew a horse with glue and then brand that through the press. that is the first page and it is also the last page which shows stirrups and in boston. as we put these pages together, there are five of them, and when you get to the center, the book always lies flat. we get to the center and it shows how it is stitched. so every one of these pages have

actually four pieces to it. that means that when we are printing, we have to know where this page goes. so we print that and then these two have to be printed together as well and the back page. so we would print one part. and then we would put that aside and let it dry and print more. so every one of these illustrations, from drawings, this is one i pat clark, the illustration. the drawings in the photographs and the embossed men's and solar plates. various techniques of the printing. every page has been handled multiple times. >> it's an art form within itself. just the book itself. it is beautiful to hold and read and look at. everything about it, such a

wonderful dance between the words and the images. it puts it in a format that is handmade but not as -- it is an art form. so it puts a end to this that will last forever and it just has a beauty of its own and so the beauty is to see it printed and appreciate all of these different processes that go into creating the artwork. >> this weekend, but tv is an organ with the help of our local partner then broadband. up next we sit down with jane kirkpatrick, author of "homestead: modern pioneers pursuing the edge of possibility." >> this is the road right here. all of these little grades around here in this is the 16% grade. we actually made that because

this was so steep. 16% is about the angle of the cows face. we would go down that road. one of the stories i wrote about in the book is that the four of us went together and i was embracing myself and i just read, go slow. so he starts out and he's going like crazy. and it's bouncing off the side. and i'm worried about falling to the bottom of the hill. and read about here he says to me, and i said how can you do that? why did he go so fast? and he said take your foot off the accelerator. and so i'm bracing myself and my foot had slipped off and jammed his foot onto the accelerator. so the very thing i was accused him of, i was conquered so he had to turn the key off to get

the truck stop. well, where is this point? it's not as far away as what you think. about 2.5 hours east of portland on a very low end of a dirt road along the river. and where did the idea come from to move out there? well, he had been looking for a piece of poverty. there's a lot of men who feel that they are born too late. i guess he was one of those men. he always wondered if he could make it, build a home, have a life. so that was a dream for him. eventually he showed me an ad where he said people use washing machines on their cars and there

was a sale of 300 something acres. and i said well, we can't. and we sent maybe we could get them to split it. so that is what happened. so we bought this in 1979. it was shortly after we had been married. and shortly after his oldest son had been killed. and so not until after we did this and we really look back and think that was one way that we were trying to bury greet a great loss and honor his life going forward. we actually came in august with all of our staff. bischoff in the bond had been built in april. so by august we were ready to go and that is when i quit my job and we started on october 26 and then again on memorial day.

so we were building through the winter. and it was white as winter they had ever had up to that point. so we had to do it through all the kinds of things that we wouldn't imagine. the road got really soft because there was so much rain in the cement company did not want to come down the road and deliver cement for the foundation of the shop. and so we had to put the cement in the back of a dump truck and drive it down. everything we did there was three times more complicated than we ever would have imagined. first we had to design the plans and we had to get many permits to actually build their grade we had to build a quarter of a mile back from the river. so there were state and federal agencies that we sort of had to work through to get permits. and then we began with holding

the shop so we could build cabinets and other things later. so the first structure was a hanger and a shop that was built with a generator. so he and his brother and another man went down there to build them. and then we brought motorhome trailers and that's what we loved and. the first thing we wanted to do was get power. we didn't have to build a house with a generator. so then we wanted to work with the local power company to bring power across the river and bury it and take it up to the shop. and then we wanted to get running water. we were tired of hauling water from 30 miles away. and these are not sequential.

and when i read old diaries about homesteaders, that is sort of a surprise is that there's so much that has to be done right before the weather changes. before something freezes up or whatever it might be it. and so then we had to figure out how to get water. my husband had said that there was a springer and i went and looked at this spring. there have had been an old man who had someone out there who had a hand pump in an area and he thought there was a spring there. when we begin to dig it out it was a spring and i have lots of water. initially there were dead things floating in and i just, there is no way we are going to like this. and this is what it actually looked like. rattlesnakes, the house actually

goes into the serbian. there was only one place that was a quarter-mile back from the river where we could build where we it was back from the river. and so we bought this little used john deere and we use that vehicle is so much. and we bought it and hold it up there. and it did everything. i mean, it helped carry things around when we move from the shop where we have stored everything into the house. we moved the piano and so it became a part of the family. so we contacted the power company and said we wanted to get power out of this place. >> well, in 1964 there have been power to that property. but there were big floods in

1964 and those people in the western number that they lived through it. the farmer who owned it, the rancher, he's another one and there had been power there they gave us permission to restore it. so that helped with all the permits. the phone company it was another sort of surprise. because i have contacted them before we moved inside, we will have the ditch ditches open for the power, costs and come in and we will do the phone lines and now will that will be great. well, it didn't happen and we couldn't get the phone company to come out. finally months later i contacted the public utility commission to find out what had happened. because we really wanted a phone there. so they call back after a few weeks and asked me to sit down.

and they said that the estimate that have been had been given to them by the phone company was $64,000. so of course i just laughed she said i am not kidding you. but they sent an engineer out from the phone company and he came up with some other options. one was that we could very align ourselves. they would provide the line and be would be able to bury it. and then we come down over the ridge and they delivered it. before we could get the big cat that we had hired to do this, the ground froze up so we couldn't do it until spring. so then in the spring the guy came and we were so excited. and so he dug the stitch and the wind came off at one end of the damage. came down at the end of the side

and then we had bury the wire because it would club and hit rocks and had to be 18 inches deep. so anyway, after all that work, it there were little cuts in the wire all the way around. the wire was defective all the way around. so we had to do it again. so i called the engineer after the first disaster and i said, what are they going to do? and he said common sense will prevail. i thought that that meant more than that. but he thought that that meant that we will do it over. [laughter] >> you mentioned the one of the things that was built was a hanger. why was that build on the property? >> after we found this property in 1979 and we went down that road, and i'm thinking -- what happens if the weather is really bad? and i didn't want to be on that

road. the ruts were made by the water running. so my husband said we will find an airplane and we will build a hanger and if the weather is really bad, we will just fly out of that. as we bought this airplane and we initially kept it not in a hanger at all because we didn't have an airstrip yet. we kept it in a little town about 20 miles away. and we had an airport there and we just hide it down there. and so i took a couple of times to work. we did some other things to it. though we didn't actually ever have to use it to get out because we didn't have a weight to get out. so the friends who helped us with a foam the foam on the

second time, they came up in the spring of 1987, i think it was. they came to celebrate and we decided to go with it. you had to fly with an instruction. and so they were passengers in the back of the plane. and we were coming back from oregon and we're going to land in moscow. as we came in over the town it was like an uphill strip area considered somewhat a hazardous drug, but it was paved. and i told my friend who is 7.5 months pregnant, we're going to go here, there will be a little saint, and then we will be right at the end of the runway. it's like the bottom of the explanation point is where we were. and suddenly the sound all changed. the engine is still going, but something had changed my house and was doing things frantically

over here. and i said as i could see us is coming closer to the trees, i heard the locust tree branches underneath, it's like we were bareboat and i thought we could still make it. but then the wind clipped the spruce tree and pitched us forward. i don't remember coming forward, i just remember light and i thought this is it. and after all this work, this is it, we are going to die. my husband and think that. he was still trying to fly at. and i think that he did the best we could do. we did crash greatly missed three houses in the middle of the town and all the power lines. there was no fire. so the two of us have a lot of broken bones, but our friends in the back, she doesn't have any memory of it, which is wonderful. she went into labor but they

were able to stop the laborer. and the baby was born full term six or seven weeks later. and we recovered, but the airplane never did recover because all the local people came up women brought food and they are trying to get set up. we hadn't been on the property very long when this thing happened. the ranchers came up and this is what we look like. and we said howdy do, and he was really careful. and we said we didn't expect other people to get caught up in our venture here. and haven't these people we don't know and we will never be able to pay this back. and they said you missed the

point. we love doing this and you will never be able to pay this back. the best we can hope to do is pass it on. >> the other health scare. >> yes, my husband had bladder cancer and we had some other complications about. we didn't know what it was, but he was getting sicker and sicker than he does have a lot of abdominal pain. and we kept our doctors and our dentist continued to be here as

well and i was two and a half hours away. which is unusual to a lot of people and we traveled to portland and south and he had actually had emergency surgery. and it was getting close when it was always really bad for him. and that's what i started pushing and the time has come for us to be a little bit closer than 45 minutes or an hour by air. i'd rather that we drive to the hospital in 20 minutes or something like that. so that is when we made the decision to leave the ranch. how long have you had you been there at this point? >> 27 years. >> if you think intelligence is

digital. with it being really smart, the clock would be average intelligence and not clock would be kind of dumb and 11:59 p.m. would be really dumb. but it's right next to this and sometimes she can't tell whether it's the smartest thing you've ever done in a significant you've ever done. and you can tell after you've gone through it and survived it. so was the smartest thing i ever did. >> i would do it again and i would like to believe that i had been less obsessive about when things went wrong. it seemed like it took me a lot of maturing time to let go and not be so anxious about whatever is not going to be the next trial. in some ways writing the book and looking back, i thought this

was a terrible time, but i got through it. and i remember there was a day and this is after the airplane accident. and my foot had been pretty badly damaged in the accident. and we had been a wreck and casts and so on. so this is seven or eight months afterwards. a gorgeous day in the sun was out. and i was dusting and he was sitting in the chair with his blue coveralls there is a song by linda ronstadt. and one of the wind and brothere said i would like to dance with you. and i said, well, if i finish

dusting the song will be over. so he said i thought you might say that. so he took my little lemon pledge had and we started dancing. the dogs were spread around, looking at what is going on. and we had to readjust because my foot didn't work right, his have been worked great. not in way that the way that we had danced before. and i thought to myself that that is what it is about. you make adjustments and you change what you are doing. and that is part of what living looks like. so as we sort of moved around the living room floor. i looked out and we didn't have any drapes because we didn't have any neighbors. and i saw the veneer that we have not planted. and i saw the river. and i thought to myself -- and i said to him, i could not be happier in my life than i am at this moment. and i almost passed it up. i almost didn't do it because i was just so afraid. so for that moment alone, i

would do it again. >> while visiting oregon with the help of our local cable partner. the author of gathering at the table. the healing journey. >> people talk about racism and how it permeates so much and how it affects daily life everywhere in this country, whether people understand it or ignored it or not. the challenges of race, the challenge of the 20th century which is still the case today. what if two people try to understand better issues of race from the perspective of the other. so you have a comeback like that from central oregon. in this african-american woman from southside chicago. one of the two of us live this

motto of healing together. so that is what we attempted to do. so how can we be together from such opposite side? for someone whose ancestors were enslaved and others did the enslaving. how can we find piece together? can we find healing and can we grow together through this process? >> when did you first learn about this? >> late 2000, early 2001. i was in my late 40s before i learned any of the history. he was the patriarch, i guess, or the most successful of the slave traders in the family. three generations over about 50 years of this family was involved in slave trade and he was most accessible. they brought something like 10,000 people out of africa and force them into slavery and they said something like half a

million of their descendents could be here today. and he owned more ships than the u.s. navy at the time. and the navy wasn't that big. but he was quite successful in the slave trade. the most successful slave trading family in u.s. history. in the most involved state in slave trading, which is rhode island, responsible for more than half of all slave trading. >> if you have any idea that this was in your family background? remapped zero. it wasn't something that i knew. nothing but my dad never. his father died when my dad was two years old. so if there were stories to be passed down, there was no one around to do that. so no, it's nothing that i knew at all until my late 40s. and then i discovered with this family history.

just a tremendous amount of u.s. is read that was never taught in any school that i went to. as i travel the country is not taught at most schools. >> the first was filled with so much horror of american history. not only was i aware of it, but it was understandable why wasn't aware of it. and so you know about slavery. you know all these terrible things. and the big question is what you do with this information? what is next? and i got home from a group called gather to the table. and they are coming together to

acknowledge the full history of this nation. and it was coming to the table that i met shaun morgan in the spring of 2008. we didn't really hit it off. >> when you hit it off? >> it's funny. she said that i stare at her with these piercing blue eyes. and that i was impolite. and i found her intimidating and maybe a little standoffish. it wasn't anything antagonistic or rude. we just did not hit it off. but about five months after that i was speaking of the redemption of reason conference which is where she lived. and she came to that conference just to greet me and give me a hug. and she said she wanted to touch

this person and see if i was serious about his work. cheap read my book and really liked what i was doing. she was really intrigued by coming to the table. so that was the moment things began to blossom. it is still ongoing. but for the book we spent three years visiting each other's family. getting to the kids and grandkids. and i showed her around where i grew up and she took me through southside chicago, joining all of his of her childhood. we then visited 27 different states, visiting sites of racial terror as well as important sites in the civil rights movement. we've been to courthouses doing genealogical research with each

other's families. we've been to plantations, we've spent the night in a house that was the front of the terra in gone with the win. we went to mississippi where emmett till was so brutally terrorized and murdered. and we went to lawrence kansas this side of john brown and the battle of blackjack, the first real battle between free state and proslavery forces. so wanting to understand this history from the perspective of each other, we spend three weeks and the caribbean in the great houses that at one time was a 600-acre sugar plantation. and we just kind of wanted to visit the scenes and understand history from a perspective that most people do not seek out. >> what we committed to do is just to be really open and also really honest. as well as being really equal in

this discussion. and, you know, we both brought a lot of life experience. so because of the previous eight or 10 years in working and creating the film, being involved with this, my awareness shifted a lot and it grew a lot. so we both brought a lot to the table in beginning a conversation with each other. in this includes a few surprises along the way. returning to my sisters house for thanksgiving dinner in southern california. and she lives out in an agricultural area. avocado trees come or in trees. when we get off the freeway we are driving and we get on this road that is curvy and merrill and has tree canopy is. and she says to me, what if that

creek floods that we just went over? is another way out of your? and i had, what i meant i mean, it's a dry bed. there's a bridge over a dry bed. completely blue skies over southern california. and i said are you being paranoid here? and she said i don't think that's funny. when you're around white people come you have to be. and she explains to me how she had been taught from childhood about how to act around white people. and here she is driving into the territory of the enemy from the way that she has been raised. because in her childhood, the early 1950s, prior to the civil rights movement, you could die. many died. one individual but for his inaction with a white woman.

she has ancestors who are part of the great migration into chicago, mississippi, alabama. because of the fear of not just brutality and abuse and discrimination and prejudice, but the potential to die because of the color of her skin. and so i'm thinking, this is my family, everything is going to be cool. she will be warmly welcomed, which he was. and i would never think that way. and then i remembered lindy and i on our honeymoon. we are fans of bruce springsteen we were going to see if we could hunt him down in asbury park. on the way there between bristol and new jersey's new york city. and we're driving along. and i take an exit that i think is the right one. the next thing i know we are in harlem. and we're driving along a street looking up at the elevated

freeway are above. my heart starts pounding because of things like every single building is surrounded by bars in the windows, people sitting and standing, walking around. some of them are staring at us. and without looking at her, i was like don't make it obvious, but make sure your door is locked and don't stop and ask for directions, just keep driving block after block. and i had no idea how we got back on the freeway and on our way to asbury park, which we did. but i just remember the fear and so those are the things that sharon and i have in common. fear from the opposite side. and she will say maybe now tom will understand why i was nervous driving back to california. and so that was part of the craziness of this adventure that

we agreed to go on. and we also agreed to have each other's back and make this happen together. >> you said you understood where sharon's hair came from. do you know where your fear came from in that situation? >> to be honest with you, i think it is part of our dna is white people. i think it is part of our dna as black people that there is a distrust that is rooted in the woods that had been inflicted. the hessian that white people have visited upon in this country. there are wounds on both sides. i think white people, it may take on many forms. it may take on an unconscious one where we are not aware of why it is that i see a lack i walking on a side street i will move to the other side of street even in broad daylight.

even aware i am a store owner, why is it that i am keeping an eye on the black lady down an aisle and not the white lady down the aisle. why is it that black kids are getting dropped more often than white kids, off the charts more often than white kids down the street. and so i think that with white people, what we have inherited his a sense of distance and a sense of this. sometimes on discomfort that is rooted in dramatic separation based on wounds that have been inflicted. so when you study, which is part of this model of healing, that if it is not healed it continues to fester. and we can go back and forth

through the cycles of violence. they may be psychological or physical or sociological. but there is a cycle of acting out aggressively against others and a cycle of acting in towards oneself. so maybe drugs and alcohol. it may be abusing one's spouse or physically, psychologically, or the separation. we get caught up in the cycles. if we don't find a way to break out and move into a healing journey, then we are stuck there and we pass that on to our kids. i know it is a topic that people can talk about. but we don't because we don't deal with it in the way that we deal with most subjects that impact us. but if we will make the effort to understand and work together on, the coming to the table model that we lived and wrote

about in her book, it is one that exists because people are doing this work together. and that understanding the impact of this historic, on us today and present day circumstances that we can have and should have. it's like when eric holder says when it comes to issues of race we are largely a nation of cowards. but until we start having these conversations with each other and accepting that we won't always say the right things that we need to work on the things together, until we do that we are never going to become the nation that we were supposed to be with the ideals that we are founded on. eric holder was taking the task by people on the right and the left and by his boss by president obama. but he is exactly right.

so through coming to the table a conversation is happening. and it's happening in any other context as well. this just happens to be the group that sharon and i have connected with and that we wrote about and people are finding out through our book, which we are really grateful for. we show that a college classroom and someone has brought their book and we know that it's making an impact and people are recognizing that we are ready for the conversation and we are going to have. >> for more information on booktv's recent visit to oregon, go to c-span.org/local content. >> seven men in the secret of their grievance published by thomas nelson. the author is eric metaxas.

where who are these seven men? and what have they done? >> i have to tell you that these are seven great man. it doesn't mean that there aren't others who are great. if anything this is a subjective grouping, but not entirely subjective. the reason i wrote the book as i thought there was a crisis of manhood and the culture. in a way we have shied away from the idea of saying that this is greatness and this is a great man. and we have celebrated antiheroes. so i feel like it hasn't been so good for us. and i think this generation needs heroes. the real heroes. you know? so i had the privilege of writing a book, which i was on booktv for. a true hero that died for what he believed. i had the alleged of writing

about him. so many said this and i will write a 20 page version i started there. and i thought that, what is it that makes anyone great. in and the way it has to do with self-sacrifice. so it's not about strength but using your strength for those that don't have strength and we can leave it there for now. there's much more. i just got about this noise with which i was familiar with. great man from history. i know that many people don't know some of these stories. so if you know the second half of what happened. younger people don't always know either. so he is one of the seven men in there. and of course george washington,

i have to talk about him. very few people know the whole story of jackie robinson. what an amazing story. if it's a piece of the story and most people don't know that. obviously i am not a catholic but i'm a very pro-catholic non-catholic. and someone i had the privilege of knowing personally. chuck paulson. that's the long answer to your question. would you prefer the short answer? script that was fine. >> short version is that he is the man who led the battle for the abolition of slave trade in the british empire. if anyone knows very little about him, they may know this much. but i didn't know until i wrote my biography of him, amazing grace. one it came out, i was asked,

would you like to write a biography. i'd i've never written one. i've never had the ambition or desire to write one. i figure that is a shot i was in in this lifetime. but it's one of those things that i really thought carefully about and prayed about it. because this was a great man and i thought that the honor and the privilege to tell that story is not something to be taken lightly. so i wrote that in the course of that i discovered what i didn't know and what most people don't know. which is that what he did in the slave trade is really the tip of an iceberg. it's an extraordinary thing to think that one man can affect history as much as he did. and so he was the first to say he was held by others and it was god who did it. but when you study a life like that, you can't help but be inspired to see what might

happen if i turn my life over to some noble purpose. so it was a broken play as. and it's hard for us to believe how broken it was. but the slave trade was only the worst of a host of social evils. i was astounded. this was news to me. i'm not as toynbee's debbie does for decades and decided let me write a book about it. i knew what most people know, which is almost nothing. but in 1785 had a dramatic version experience. very dramatic. and he turned everything over to god. he basically said i have been given wealth and connections, influence, talent, rhetorical skills. how can i put these to the service of others and on my not my own political ambitions. but in the service of others. so the cardinal example of that

is his efforts to end the slave trade, which he led an accomplished to end slavery itself, which he also was successful in accomplishing just before he died. and a host of other things as well. so to me he is a bold example of what's possible through one person. >> so the secret of greatness is what? >> i am referring principally to the idea of self-sacrifice. the new testament version of love. cs lewis famously wrote about it. that divine love, i have known that my whole life. but it doesn't mean romantic love but self giving love. love that says i will sacrifice myself. each of the men in this book either in one dramatic way or in a number of dramatic ways or in a lifetime of obedience to some

nobler purpose sacrifice of themselves and in the case of chuck paulson, whom i have the honor of knowing, there are two things that stick out. you can debate the 1973. i barely remember this. during the watergate debacle, most people made fun of him. and that's like dick cheney becoming a jehovah witness. gimme give me a break, he's not going to change at the end of it. but on the contrary. this tough guy was a nasty political operative who had a historical kind of conversion. the most dramatic example is that he tells his lawyer who got him a great plea bargain to avoid jail time, the red i will not take it. i will not lie to save myself jail time. i refuse.

and i claim to have given my life to god. i refuse to lie and i want to god and he will honor me. but his lawyer, of course when ballistic. he said that's very noble. you are out of your mind and gain. we have a family and you cannot go to jail. and chuck said, well, i'm going to -- i'm not going to disobey what i think is the right thing to do. i'm going to trust god. so he literally -- he refuses the plea bargain and goes to jail. his life was threatened, it was awful. and then when he gets out of jail he says something similar. i'm going to give up a lucrative career. martha stewart gets out of jail. a shiver mention jail? forget about it, move on. chuck says on in the rest of my life not for getting jail, but going into prisons bringing my faith into prisons and hope and

justice reform and that is someone that i can understand that his sacrifice was real. he was not perfect, he was a person just like we are people. but he is someone whose life changed dramatically. whose life was given to a more noble purpose. when you see that, it affects you. even when he died a year and a half ago, many couldn't even believe it. they could leave after all those years that he really had changed. but he had, and that is egret of every one of the stories.

the people really were the real deal even though they weren't perfect. >> eric metaxas, how did you get hooked up with prison fellowship? >> i guess i had a conversion in 1988, kind of age or mattock conversion. my website, a lot of this stuff i wanted to say here. but there's a video. but i know immediately someone recommended the books of chuck colson. i had started reading his books. the most extraordinary example and i thought, who is this guy? he has a strong faith

conversion. clearly the real deal and intellectually honest and dreamily bright. so i read his books and i finally had the opportunity. i graduated from yellin 1984 and so i drove back to new haven to your him speak and i handed him a choice book with a letter, just telling him what i thought about him. i couldn't believe it, this guy wrote me a letter. and he says something about keeping in touch. i thought, oh, sure. in a year later they were looking for writers and editors for break point, which is his daily radio commentary. sort of a commentary of worldviews, cultural issues from a biblical worldview. ended up writing and working for break point and today i am one of the voices of breakpoint. when he passed away they asked me if i would take over. so i have been doing that for about a year and a half now. >> what is the short version of

your conversion? >> well, the short version is that i was raised with some. greek orthodox christian. altar boy, believed in god, but didn't really know the details of why i believed. i didn't even really know if there was something that was intellectually sound. i was not convinced that it was. i thought, jew or greek you go to the greek church. you get good grades, go to a good school. make a good living. well, my faith, such as this was was strongly challenged. but academia and yell, it'd aggressively secular. and do i believe what i claim to believe? and i guess i don't, let me be a open-minded. that is an excuse for saying that i just don't think that

there are answers that any rational person can have. so i will hold the whole thing lightly. and of course that is really tough, so i've floundered, drifted, floated. i ended up moving back in with my parents, which i do not recommend. during a lost time i took a menial job as a proofreader in danbury, connecticut. very unpleasant. and during that miserable time i met a guy who is a pretty serious christian and a generous kind soul. and he began having conversations with me. until one night like a year later i had a dream, a dramatic dream where god revealed himself to me and i did not ask her, it just happened. and it was life-changing.

what can i tell you? either online or crazy with what happened, but i think it happened. and it has given me deep teeth which actually did not think was possible to have. so forgive me for making that longer than it ought to be. but it's hard to tell that story. >> we are here at the conservative political action conference talking with the seven men that are profiled by our author. would you consider these men conservative? >> no, not really. what one calls conservative today is different from 11 would have called conservative 50 or 100 or 200 years ago. i'm less interested in in conservatism than truth. if conservatism is speaking truth, i'm interested in it. i spoke about this two years ago i talked about my values in the

value of an unborn life, loving political enemies. being gracious to those with whom we disagree. and those things are very important. so these men have these qualities. the knowability and the honesty. in some ways he was conservative. in some ways he was not. so it's not always an easy thing to do so if you look at the life of jackie robinson, he was a profound christian. very few people know that his ability and his strength and breaking the racial barrier came from his faith and prayer is on

his knees praying that god would give him the strength to do something that he cannot humanly do. the individual that recruited him as a serious christian and did what he did in large part because of his faith. that's one needs to be told and people need to know that. jackie robinson was not a left-wing conservative, but he was certainly a republican and there's no doubt about that. but to me his faith was just beautiful. >> he you talk about speaking at the national prayer breakfast. what is this? >> two years ago i had the high honor of being chosen to speak at of the president and the first lady and the vice president and members of congress. every big shot you can think of at the national prayer back breakfast. and i didn't take it lightly. i knew it as soon as i was invited that this was absolutely not about me.

that god has something he wants to share with everyone there. but people who are there politically, those who greet me, those who do not. and i wasn't would use the occasion to try to embarrass the president but to reach out with him in love with thoughts and ideas, that's what i attempted to do. i think i was successful only by god's grace. which is not easy to do. so i put it up because it was a crazy morning. and that's look, my speeches and their, the background story -- which i won't tell now -- but i'm talking to joe biden and nancy pelosi and having conversations with all kinds of people in the encounter with the president, something very funny happened. it was hilarious and crazy with the president and then finally i led the president and the number of others of singing amazing grace at the end of it. i was inspired by garrison keillor. i didn't know i was going to do