the way out of afghanistan," is booktv's book club selection for the month. booktv.org, thanks for being with us. >> c-span, created by america's cable companies 35 years ago and brought to you today as a public service by your television provider. ..

him so apple is in is about the ways in which for capitalism works and a modern-day witch isn't always what they think. not just about corporations and privatization. have that it colonize our imagination wound had as a make

innocent people that big of the now? i want to start at the beginning clinton's read it and talk a bit it from being totally in current income have been questions. is it that house are a home? emersons and telegraphed a mystery man things have not bins and. here we hadn't. pay your respects to our new proven to be it into law blocks of india's richest man. i had read about this most expensive drilling and rebuild

in of the 27 floors, three helipads, nine lifts, hanging gardens, ballrooms, whether rooms, gymnasiums the wessex was a parking and 600 servants. but nothing had prepared me for the of vertical long, soaring 27 story highball of brass attached to the best middle grade. the press was dry in patches it did a tent pole of men. clearly trickle-down had not worked. but that's why in the nation of 1 billion india's 100 richest people on assets equivalent to one-fourth of the gdp. the word on the street and in the new york times is order least was that after all that effort and gardening for, they don't live.

no one knows for sure. people still whisper about ghosts and padlock. maybe it's all karl marx's wall-to-wall thus causing. capitalism, he said, has conjured up such a giant -- such gigantic means of production and exchange that it is like the sorcerer who is no longer it will to control the powers of another world who he has called up by his bill. in india the 300 million of us who belong to the new post international monetary fund reformed middle-class, the market. side-by-side with the spirits of another world, the poltergeists of dead rivers, dry wells, bald mountains and the need for speed read the ghost of 250,000 farmers to kill themselves and

of the 800 million who have been impoverished and dispossessed to make way for us. and didn't -- personal worth $20 billion. he holds the majority controlling share and the reliance industries limited, are ideal, a company with a market capitalization of $47 billion global business interests that include petrochemicals, oil, natural gas, polyester fiber, especially economic front, fresh food retail, high-school life science research and stand so storage services. ril recently bought 95 percent shares in in photo made tv consortium that controls 27 tv news and entertainment channels in almost every regional

language. and once the only nationwide which is the technology that will be the future of information exchange. and he also owns a cricket team. so all -- you have these huge industrialists who have this cross-ownership of businesses. and then you have a huge media house is like, for example, newspaper which has a of 17 and a half million readers in four languages. and they own 69 companies which are mining companies, power generation companies, real-estate companies, textile companies. he had this kind of way of controlling information imagination and business and

land in agriculture. ril is one of a handful of corporations that run india. some of the others, reliance owned by his brother. they're race for growth has built across europe and the central africa, asia, latin america. the net is cast wide. they're visible and invisible, over as well as underground. for example, they run more than 100 companies in 80 countries and are one of india's oldest and largest private-sector power companies. they own, gas fields, steel plants, telephone and cable-tv and broadband networks and ron whole townships. the manufacture cars and trucks, on the hotel chain, jaguar, land

rover, a publishing company, a chain of bookstores, a major brand of a iodize salt and the cosmetics giant. the advertising tagline could easily be, you can't live without us. according to the rule, the more you have the more you can have. the era of the privatisation of everything is made the economy one of the fastest-growing in the world. however, as with any good old fashioned colony one of its main export is its minerals. india's new mega corporation, those who have managed to muscle their way to the head of the spigot there is peeling money extracted from deep inside the earth. it is a dream come true for businessmen to be able to sell what they don't have to buy. the other major source of

corporate wealth comes from their land banks. all over the world week, corrupt local governments have helped wall street brokers, agribusiness corporations and chinese billionaires' to amass huge tracts of land. in india the land for the millions of people is being acquired and handed over to private corporations for public interest, for special economic zones and infrastructure projects, dams, highways, car manufacturers, a cargo hubs and formula one racing. as they concentrate wealth on to the tip of a shining path on which are billionaires' pair went tidal waves of money crash through the institutions of democracy to mccourt, parliament, as well as the media seriously compromising their ability to function in the ways that they're meant to. the noisier the carvel around elections the less sure we are

that democracy releases. each new corruption scandal the surfaces in india makes the last one look tame. there was this used telecom scandal in india which involve millions of dollars, but the privatisation and illegal sale of telecom does not involved displacement and economic devastation. such a straightforward out now accounting scandal. one of the things the and have been thinking of for a couple of

years which i find quite shocking is that there has not been a year in india since 1947 which is the year we became independent, there was a transfer of power between the british and the indian elite. there has not been a single year in which the indian county chief of indian army has not been deployed against its own people. so from 1947, with the you think about, the army is constantly deployed against people that are supposedly within the nation. and now because of this new aggressive economic policy which involves selling the mountains, the rivers democratizing and

mining, there's a war going on against people in the forests of central india. but the war is not just in a forest. there's a whole band with the resistance movements inside the forest, the armed now west. outside their militant people, there is a old band with of movement which, you know, academics and journalists like to crossfire esquimau : this is not the end, not violent, violent maoist. in fact, people don't think like that. it thing strategically. so when you are out in the villages and the planes you can't really have a guerrilla army. so you have movements would call themselves ghandi and/or their militant would not armed. in some of the forest which are

now filled with paramilitary forces like in latin america, colombia, peru, you have these huge lead on shoulders billing them, raping the women, trying to clear the forced from corporations. and the prime minister of indian , the people who are certainly aren't the most of their arms are snatched from the paramilitary forces are in those wars with grenades and ak-47s and rocket launchers. so ebay recall india's greatest internal security threat and the government announced something called operation green hunt which was supposed to just want these people down and clearing the forest. so two years ago actually went

into the forest and spent some time with the guerrillas and came out and wrote an essay go walking with the conference. out just read you a little bit just to give you a kind of texture of what is actually going on and. the notes slipped on my door and unsealed on love confirms my apartment with india's biggest, single biggest internal security challenge. i have been waiting for months to hear from a. i have to be there on mondays. that was to take care of bad weather, transport strikes and sure about about. another said should have camera

and coconut. the outlook magazine. the password will be. [indiscernible] i wonder whether the major in the greater will be expecting a man and whether i should give myself a mustache. there are many ways to describe. it's an oxymoron. it's a border town smack in the heart of india. it is the epicenter of war, an upside-down inside out town. the police were plain clothes and the rebels were uniforms. the superintendent is in jail, the prisoners are free. 300 of them escaped from the old town jail two years ago. women who have been raped are in police custody.

of rapists care speeches in the bizarre. across the river in the area controlled by the mouse is a place bullies, pakistan. there the villages are empty, but the forces will people, children who ought to be in school run wild. in a lovely forced villagers, the concrete school buildings of whether been blown up and line in the heat were full a policeman. the deadly war that is unfolding in the jungle is a war that the government of india is both proper and schrempf. operation green hunt has been proclaimed as well as tonight india's home minister and ceo of the war says it does not exist, that it is a media creation. and yet substantial funds have been allocated to it intends of thousands of troops are being mobilized work. to the theater of the war is

being revived and was it will have serious consequences were gasol. did goes so lingering spirit of someone or something that has ceased to exist, perhaps the national mineral development corporation, perhaps it's the harbinger of what is in to come. the antagonists in the four-star disparaged an unequal in almost every way. on one side is a massive paramilitary force armed with the money, firepower, media, and the hubris of an emerging superpower. on the other, armed with traditional weapons back by of superbly organized, usually motivated maoist guerrilla fighting force with an expert mary and violent history of armed rebellion. the mouse and the paramilitary

are all at nursery's and have fought each other several times before. in the fifties, the 60's and 70's, and then again from the 70's on hard all the way through to the present. they are familiar with each other's tactics and have studied the jitters combat mantle's closely. each time it seems as though the malice or the previous avatars have not just been defeated by the truly physically or exterminated. each time they reemerge more organized, were determined, and more influential than ever. today the insurrection has spread through the mineral rich forests, homeland to millions of india's troubled people and not the dream lens to the corporate world.

i arrived well before the -- well in time for my appointment. i had my camera, my small coconut, and the power on my forehead. wonder if someone is watching the end of a laugh. within minutes a young boy approached me with a cap and a backpack schoolbag, cheaper in a polish of his fingernails, no banana. you the one going in? no. and did not know what to sing. and the bananas, i eat them. i got hungry. the really was not a security threat. his backpack said charlie brown,

not your ordinary block it. he said his name was month to. i soon learned the four-star was about to enter was will people who have many names include identities. was like a pound to me. have of not to be stuck with yourself, to become someone else for what. only a few miles away from the temple, already crowded. things happen quickly. there were two men on motorbikes there was no conversation, just i glance of acknowledgement, shifting the body weight, the revving of engines. have no idea where we were going to be repassed the house of the superintendent of police which are recognized for my last visit i candid man. in fact, this man committed suicide a couple of years ago.

rent the speaking this problem can be solved by police or military. a problem is that they don't understand. unless they become greedy there is no hope. remove and instead put a tv. it was a long ride in interior with for suppliers signed. he got off and i did too. the bikes left and i picked up my backpack and followed the small internal security challenge and a force. it was a beautiful day. the force floor was a carpet of gold. in a while reamers and all white sandy bank of the broad, flat river.

obviously monsoon-bed. now it was more or less bus and slack. at the center of strained ankle deep and easy way across. across was pakistan. out there the candid as be had said to me, my boys shoot to kill. i remembered that as we began to cross. i saw a policeman's rifle sights, tiny figures and landscapes. but he seemed quite unconcerned. and i took my cue from him. and then, of course, it goes on, the leaks that are spent in a. but then so the way it works is that the indian below one of the main things as. [applause] who will rot -- it was pushed

back by civil society, activists , but the physical side in the force. seven now the corporations are backing -- were they want to back a government that can actually send out the army in the air force against the poorest people in india to hand over those lands to the corporation. and they want someone who's not going to flourish. you know who's not going to be upset by what happened over the last two years. many people just stood up and said you can't do this. this government point. now we're looking at a government that is not going to blink. but obviously, you know, this

kind of coercion works for the poor. you can bomb the pork, jail them, do follow that. what were you going to do with the owners the army is experienced enough. and just going to read you with the army says. the indian army publicly released its updated doctrine which outlines, and i quote, a planned process of conveying a message to a select target audience to promote particular teams that result in desired attitudes and behavior which affect the achievement of political and military objectives in the country. this process of perception management would be conducted by using the media available to the services. the army's experienced enough to know that blew it will force

alone cannot carry out or manage social engineering on a scale that is envisioned by india's planners. basically want them going to say now is that it wants to move 75% of the indian population in the cities which means something like 500 million people, how do you an engineer something on that scale? certainly not voluntarily. but the war against the poor is one thing. for the rest of us the middle class, the intellectuals, the opinion makers, it has to be perception management. and for this in must turn our attention to the exclusive art of corporate philanthropy. the mining corporations have embraced the arts, installations and russian literary festivals that have replaced the 1990's of session with beauty contest.

sponsoring or creating happiness through competition for young fellow students. the tagline is mine happens. the gender group brings out the contemporary art magazine and supporters @booktv supports some of india's major artists to naturally work with in the steel the principal sponsor, newsmen. but promises these high octane debates. they have a sordid record of its own, among the chief sponsors.

then strategic brand managers will many of the world's best and brightest riders gathered to discuss love, literature, and politics. my reading from his which are book, the satanic parses. the battle for free speech against islamists fundamentalism made it to the world's newspapers and it is important that it did. there was hardly any report about the festival's sponsors will in no warrant for. the bodies piling up, the presence billing of or about the on lawful activities prevention act and the public security act which make even thinking in anti-government thought the offense or reprimand toward public hearing for the steel plants hundreds of miles away in

the collector office compound. where was free-speech them? so now you see what is happening is that sponsoring used foam puzzles, writing festivals, art festivals, college courses, was going to pass the offers. not me who lives of the royalties from corporate publishing houses. we all watch. we surf the net. we ride in taxes, stay in hotels, sip tea and 31 teaspoons. we by bullock's in bookshops and we even eat salt. we are under siege. the sledgehammer of moral purity is to be the criteria with a stone-throwing and the only people who qualify on those who have been silent already, who

live outside the system, the outlaws and the force or those whose protests are never covered by the press. but the literary festivals are on moment. she loved india and she would come again and again, made a sprout. but this is only the burlesque and of the it was an art. and though they have been involved with corporate philanthropy for almost a hundred years now and alex scholarships and running some excellent educational institutions and hospitals the corporations will only recently been invited. the camera, the bird in that word of global corporate governance for deadly for it and . so this is just a little bit.

the last part of it before we chat about foundations like carnegie, like rockefeller, ford and the history of how they started to operate and what they're doing now. there and throwing history which has faded from contemporary memory began in the united states in the early 20th-century wing steve out legally in the form of in doubt foundations, corporate philanthropy began to replace missionary activity as capitalism and imperialism as per the opening and systems maintenance patrols. among the first to be set up in the united states was the carnegie corporation and down in 1911 by profits from carnegie steel and the rockefeller foundation and out in 1914 by rockefeller, founder of standard wrote company.

finance, given seed money, or supported by the rockefeller foundation, the united nations, the cia, the council on foreign relations, new york's most fabulous museum of modern art and the rockefeller center in new york. rockefeller was america's first billionaire and the world's richest man. he believed his money was given to him by god which must of been nice for him. when corporate in doubt foundations made their first appearance in the last there was a serious debate about the legality and lack of accountability. people suggested that if companies had some much surplus money they should raise the wages of the workers. people made these averages suggestions those days, even in america. but the ideal of these

foundations was in fact a leap of the business imagination. non taxpaying the new entities with massive resources and an almost unlimited, wholly accountable, holding on transparent. what better way to parlay economic wealth and to political, social, and cultural capital to turn money and power. how else would bill gates to edmonton in knows a thing or two about computers, find himself designing education, health and agricultural policies not just for the u.s. but for governments all over the world. [applause] over the years has people witness some of the genuinely good work the foundations did, the direct connection between corporations and foundations in down began to blur and the eventually it faded altogether if it in the 1920's u.s.

capitalism have begun to look outward for raw material and overseas markets. foundations began to formulate the idea of global corporate governance. in 1924 rockefeller and carnegie foundation joined the created what is today the most powerful foreign-policy pressure group in the world, the council on foreign relations by 1947 the newly created cia was supported by and working closely with see a far. over the years the has included 22 u.s. secretaries of state. there are five members in the 1943 steering committee the billion dollar grant from mark fowler. all 11 of the world bank

presidents from 1946, men who are present themselves as missionaries the world bank and imf decided that the u.s. dollar should be their reserve currency of the world. but global capitol, it will be necessary to universalize or standardized business practices and open marketplace. it is toward this end that they spend on large amount of money promoting good government as long as they control the stream. in the concept of the rule of law provided they have a say in making long. in hundreds of anti-corruption programs to streamline the system and put in place. corporate and out foundations of ministry and channel their power and placed the chessman on the chessboard to a system of elite clubs and think tanks whose

members are will at and move in and out through the revolving doors. contrary to the various conspiracy theories in circulation will particularly when some groups there is nothing secret, satanic more freemason like about this arrangement. it's not very different from the way corporations use shell companies and offshore accounts to transfer and administer their money but the foundation sphere been set up in 1936. and the ford foundation then really talked about this idea of making america society of those on credit. and this idea was first read it to the department store owner

who believe in creating a mass consumption society of consumer goods by giving workers affordable access to credit, a radical idea that time. it was only half for radical idea because the other half is that he believes in a more equitable distribution of national income. but many years later this idea of, you know, micro credit and so on has trickled down into places like india and bangladesh in and you have people, you know, very poor people in debt committing suicide by 250,000 indian farmers. and then i don't want to talk a little -- a lot about how. all way in which the change the education system the way they changed politics into a form of ngo, the feminist movement, they

basically funded the politics out of the black civil rights movement. what they did in south africa, what they're doing in places like india now. so to understand india is a place where people understand this very well, militant people's movement, understand that even if the ngos are doing good work, the whole way in which it is coopted to serve the international market is something is even more dangerous than direct corporate funding, mining, things like that. it is hard for me to explain the whole thing here, but of course that's what the book is about. maybe we can chat about.

[applause] >> in key. can everyone here a specter? you have a full house. i can see have made everybody happy, not just in the room. the government, military, foundations. to have you left out? so there's some many things i want to ask. let's turn off a little bit with a question about capitalism. i was just very struck by the figures the you ran out at the beginning, india's 100 richest people is equal to one fourth of

the gdp. a wonderful passage about exactly how much they own or how much -- and i support that kind of concentration. we have become sadly quite used to not just in the butter and china, the united states, increasing the crew. but that is very much in the cab was. i'm also struck by this other figure the you have. just a few pages later when you say that after 20 years of growth -- and you have growth, just to make people happy, you right after 20 years of growth 60% of india's work force is self-employed. 90 percent of india's works in the unorganized sector.

is that -- i think that's something that might be worth talking about, especially for those your. could you talk a little bit more about these 90 percent or 60% of a 90 percent piece, you know, what we refer to as the masters of the people. why is it after 20 years of growth that they are working and the unorganized sector? could you explain that? >> well, i think when in the late 80's and early 90's when let's say soviet communism lost the war in afghanistan and became something for the world. and it would choose to be aligned with the soviet union began to see itself as a natural ally of israel and the u.s. did read it changed its economic

policies. one of the things -- one of those dismantling, you know, protections to workers. you know, on the other hand there were loss for minimum wages. it was understood that there were never going to be implemented. and people have seen when your -- might once they have written and follow a lot on the issue of dam building where people are displaced in the hundreds of thousands, told that when there is damage your own good job. there are no jobs. the mechanization and all of that is taking place. so what we have is what is known as jobless grew. and it's not -- minutes to five

beds, you know, one of a great areas of growth, i to sector. but on data -- what you have is a country where a small section of people have become very wealthy, but even a small percentage of the population like india still means it's a very big market. and the rest have just fallen away outside the radar all the in the. >> you have been involved, i think, or you followed some of the labor strikes but get this factory. is that right. >> could you talk of a bit about that and how you see what happens to workers? these workers are essentially former agriculturists who are getting jobs.

since her buying lots of cars and things like that, wind and not doing well. >> i think again there are a few workers your regular, the organized sector. there restaurant organized sector workers. the pressure on them to work faster work to produce more cars, to have less free time, you know, to refuse to fund it refused to fund and not allowed to have a union. and so basically what happens with family, there was a strike. according to the workers there were some people who entered the factories and workers uniforms and were not millworkers. and one management person was killed, the person was killed happens to be the one management person have been put into

prison, the rest of them have been sacked. you have workers just brought in from elsewhere, paid very low wages and you are willing to work as virtually slave labor which is what is happening everywhere. if you go to the outskirts of dili it's worse than the medieval. and support to be the pilot operation of india, no, it's the window. the people in the villages have been some even know, displaced and are losing there livelihoods in the land. now there's trouble in the window was well which is a real problem. >> in terms of the trouble, the growth in 20 years, it is not lead to a much to the people for the 900.

it's been slowing down. what affect is this having on the elections? do you have to -- you mentioned a little bit during your reading that the congress party has been charged since 2004, for ten years. so it has actually overseen this expansion of the market, expansion of the middle class, expansion of the consumers. what the people want the congress out all what do a very vocal section of the lead bidder acquires, well-to-do, one of their want the congress out and the party in? >> you know, i mean, i have connected a little bit to your earlier question. as a great amount of feudalism

and fundamentally in our society. in one of the things the has happened in india since the time the markets were open to international finance, the very same time started a huge hindu chauvinist movement led by the be cheapie. and the communalism and corporatism was going hand in hand. and with the slowdown of the economy and the world what happens is that this huge expectations of this very brash new middle-class has become dangerous. there were sitting in an aircraft up in the takeoff. suddenly it is just frozen. all of those expectations of

turned to panic. of course seen as the and is just deeply corrupt, deeply ron. the impatience of the middle class is taking the form of these huge sword of protests. mainly on the anti-corruption issue of started with pitbull as covered 247 by all these corporate media channel. that was the beginning of, you know, the bjp and the very, very right wing groups backing in at the time.

that was the beginning of the end of the congress in some ways because it was just being portrayed as this week government that could not push through policy. >> and why was seen as weak? because it was not willing to commit itself fully to the kind of majoritarian identity or not as much? >> jack, well, that is a historical defunding to me if you go back in time, the turn of the 20th century you have, you know, and the freedom movement you had these two factions in the congressman has the militant and the moderate. and now they just happen to be too different political parties. they're playing out the same trajectory. so that is in the nature of it. i mean and is absolutely, the

hindu nationalist and congress. the secularism. actually, in fact, like dow was saying since 1947, if you look these wars that the indian army has fought, the wars are always fought against the owners will with a muslim, trouble, sheikhs, christians. >> this is the windows by day with the of the does by night. >> something very marked about this moment with the prime minister can it is the most aggressive.

they're all aggressive, but he's the most aggressive. he has a record of being the chief minister, these incidents took place committee was banned from entering the and states. he was denied a visa to enter the united states partially because of that. now he's very much being projected as this man is a good manager. some vision of a corporate india . there is of brandy. and now even the united states on the u.k. this interview on the verge of excepting in. so is this a kind of, even though there is no difference,

there seems something particularly marked about this moment, what is -- what you think about that? >> i think that, you know, we are poised in a very momentous and slightly dangerous space because in 2002 may be 58 and the programs were burned alive in a train. and following that we still don't know who built them or how that happened. but following now was this sort of genocidal pilgrim against muslims were more than a thousand people are just burned and managed. women were gang rape. and so one. and a hundred thousand were driven from their rooms.

and now we are in a stage where people are saying, oh, what you have to go on about that. this person has made to the view and that idea of being this state which is at the forefront of progress and development has been taken apart. but the reason -- >> how so? >> because you look at the human development, the levels of mount attrition, all those on the internet. >> the reason is back is because he shows himself to be in man who will not link him able to be brutal. when someone is brutal against

muslim dominion know, i learned a huge lesson when the killings happened. and i wrote about the with this kind of, you know, outrage. obviously i was appealing to what i thought. human life, where people would react with horror. and you just got this cold look which says so what. they deserve it. and from -- i mean, there's a huge, you know, community of indians who were outraged. even today there people who still can't believe this is happening. but now the hope is that this brutality will be turned against those who are fighting the big

corporate projects in the villages and the forest. that is what the corporations are backing, all the big corporations are behind it. >> there's a kind of almost colonial process, the extraction of resources. of what are the people movements? the purchase beyond just now was can you talk about that? because you travel what. i mean, you seen this. you travel all over. what do you see when you go to the north the storer correction. what do you see in terms of people? this is something that is completely filtered out from media. we don't see any of this in the media. >> hell husband : how have they

become industrialized a modernized. that has happened to colonialism , colonialism where raw material were used to feed industry. in india and it does not have colonies. you have a middle-class. , people have told me openly that all of these other countries have a history. and by that they have a history of committing genocide. and, you know, some people have to pay the price repress, you know, i have heard many times.

i say this another the understanding of what is going on is tremendous and the resistance movement. and this is, you know, i always find it surprising when people say, oh, she's an international. i don't think it anybody could be prouder of how with such wisdom, with such courage, with certain corrective of intelligence, these battles are being waged. is not just a battle about of this is my land, i don't want to leave my home, it's really a question that is being asked about the nature of happiness,

about the nature of what we call civilization, you know. and that profound question is being posed by people whose bodies are on the one. as i said, these movements are very, very varied. but people, was criticized. so have not announced. in land of ghandi opinion support these people. if the border security surrounds the village and raping women and chasing them, what are they supposed to do?

coming, and hungry people go on hunger strike? and people who don't have any access to, you know, tv go around? the kent. so while theoretically and tv studios and in academia people discuss violence and nonviolence , it's actually strategic. the same person can be found in on the street and announced in the forest. you just have to do what you can do. [applause] >> to you know how they take your book? did you ever get any feedback? >> i had the when you know, kind of very difficult. the force is under siege. it's actually terrible what's going on there. people can't come out, people

can't get medicine. it's just, there being killed. so i think it might have been six months after i came out and after was published. they're is a part in the book where one line a much these young sort of iran months. i say no, i'm in my private streak, thousand star hotel. so six months after the essay was published passed from hand to hand to hand to hand account this thing bit : basket which is this little piece of paper which is folded 95 times. ..

>> you've got a copy of the book, i see. an introduction, and it was accepted in caravan magazine, and it was called the doctrine of the saint. can you talk a little bit about it as well as, you know, what the response has been, what the basic, what drove of you to the project? >> well, an highlation of cost

is the text of an 80-year-old speech that was delivered by, i think, one of mod earn india -- modern india's greatest intellectuals called dr.med begun gar. >> with a columbia connection. >> yes, he received a ph.d. in columbia. but he was born into a family who were at that time called untouchables. and, you know, he, he published a speech in 1936 where soon after declaring that though he was born a hindu, he wasn't going to die a hindu. >> and he converted to -- >> the he converted much later to buddhism. and mahatma gandhi basically replied to this provocation really of his, and it was a

debate between the two. and medgar was really, he challenged gandhi in every way politically, intellectually, but mostly morally, you know? so it's the text of a speech that has existed, it has been read and reread. and a publisher asked me if i would write the introduction, and i took a long time to do it was while i was looking at this debate between began do -- gandhi and medgar, i was just appalled by what i learned about gandhi -- >> you're harsh on him. >> well, i'm not as harsh as i should have been, i think. [laughter] you know? but, so it took me right back to gandhi, you know, gandhi's views on caste which took me -- >> and race --

>> -- when he first ea arrived in south africa -- he first arrived in south africa. and, you know, we, of course, knew that he had been called ma mahatma soon after he came back for what he had done there. but what he did there was extremely disturbing. but anyway, when i wrote the introduction, it was a pretty long introduction, and there was, i mean, it's just come can out, just like a few days ago. so i think the first, there was a reaction from certain scholars who said nobody -- i think people in the u.s. are familiar with these debates too, you know, that no one was not acknowledged who has the right to write about medgar, it's not a position that i would agree with. but again, it would, you know, i think go back a lot to looking

at the ways in which we are now hermetically sealing ourselves into certain kinds of identities in which literature can't exist anymore because, you know, nobody can write about the other without being accused of being, you know, in clicheed ways. but i think that's, you know, the book has just come out, so the reaction in my case almost everything i write for the first six months i have to duck for cover, you know? [laughter] and then the text, you know, because the trouble -- and i understand it, you know? i understand that the fact that i've become a little too well

known for my own good, you know? so you write, anything you write gets so much attention that it seems almost unfair, you know? but, you know, that -- i can't stop writing. i are to write what i have -- i have to write what i have to write, and we'll see. >> books are, i mean, becoming quite problematic in india, isn't it? i mean, the most recent case was when did the history of the hindus and alternate history was called back by penguin, and you wrote to them in protest about that. can you talk about that? this is, again, it's amazing it's supposed to be free market, it's supposed to be democracy, but that a book is just being withdrawn because a small pressure group says that it's to fencive. offensive. do you think this is going to two on, this is going to happen

even more? and you yourself, of course, have these cases for speeches and -- i suppose all the way back to the novel. >> yeah. >> so can you talk about this, this whole, you know, this problem with books in india? >> well, i think it's quite fascinating, you know? as you legislate more about free speech and as you make more of a song and dance about free speech, in fact, in india, you know, what the err due poet could say about his relationship with islam, nobody could say today what the great short story writers would say about mullahs. nobody can say it today. what medgar could say about hinduism you can't say now, you know? i mean, it's almost unbelievable how little you can say now.

and on the issue of when -- [inaudible] it was really sad because it wasn't even as if there was a court can case or a ban order or anything. it was a group of, right-wing hindu group that said sentiments were hurt by her book on hinduism, and penguin just sort of pulled back which frightened many other people. because, you know, at least penguin has the resources to fight a legal case. other people don't. i, when i wrote "the god of small things," five lawyers filed a criminal case against me for corrupting public morality. [laughter] and then, you know, i had to appear in court by which time i had won the booker prize, and so, you know, they kind of wanted to claim me but not claim

the book. [laughter] so the judge would appear in court, and he'd say, he said once every time this case m comes before me, i get chest pains. [laughter] but it went on for ten years, you know? then, of course, there's this threat of sedition, and almost everything you write or say you kind of begin to look for that brown envelope in the post, you know, summoning you or some person had filed a case somewhere. it's really, what has happened is that, you know, it's not like you're living in a dictatorship where the government has terrorized you, and it's creating subversive and beautiful literature. it's not that. what has happened is that the censorship has been outsourced to the mob. so people, you know, people can trash your house, they can trash

your book launches as has happened with me several times. people can, people can do anything, you know? and there are these little vigilante groups who have taken it upon themselves to do it. so you're, you know, you're left to the danger of becoming someone who censors themselves all the time. >> but you haven't. clearly. >> no, i have to some extent, you know? i mean, how do you know what i would like to say? [laughter] >> on that note, why don't we open up the floor to questions? i think we're doing well in terms of time. why don't we do that? >> they're already there. >> oh. oh, my goodness.

[laughter] >> some call you anti-american. what is good and worth cherishing about the united states of america? [laughter] and do you have advice to the anti-capitalist movement in the u.s.? >> that's the next question. >> yeah. well, you know, the thing about people saying so and so's anti-american or anti-national, now, i think it feeds to whoever's saying it the right to decide what is american or what is indian or what is national. [applause] we don't give them that right, you know? we don't give them that right. and i don't actually think that -- personally, i don't think in terms of countries anymore, you know? and i don't mean in this kind of

touchy-feely, hippie way. [laughter] but what i, what i feel is that, you know, the elites have all sort of seceded into outer space and found some country of their own there. and, you know, what is, what is theirs now that we can say, you know, we can say when i say india or when someone says india, i really don't know what they mean, you know? when someone says can you give us an interview about indian women, what does that mean, you know? [laughter] there are indian women who are the liberated, unique and free women that i know, and at the same time you don't have to journey five minutes to foe that there's a -- to know that

there's female fratricide and people are living in medieval times. so how do we think in terms of countries? sometimes i really don't understand it but, you know, i'm certainly not anti-american though i'm anti very many american policies made by the american government. [applause] do i have advice for the anti-capitalist movement in the u.s.? i'm very bad at giving advice, you know? [laughter] really bad at giving or taking advice. [laughter] so i don't have any advice. [laughter] [applause] you mentioned, you mentioned that india is being recognized at the land of gandhi.

however, is it not largely a perception of the western world? is it not recognized in any manner relative to -- [inaudible] the revolutionary who strived to bring india independence prior to his own execution? well, he is one of the very heroic young indians who was hanged when he was 21 or 22 years old. in fact, on the 23rd of march, i think. and the thing is that, you know, he's one of those figures who's just appropriated by everybody know, you know? which is what happens to icons. but certainly, i would say that

singh is a much more important revolutionary and necessary figure than gandhi to india. [applause] do you think that you would have received the same resistance to the doctor and the say about, which is the name of my introduction, had it been published from anlation of cost? -- an highlation of cost? with well, i think there would be a resistance of another kind, but the real problem would be what it is saying about mahatma gandhi when the establishment

considers is at the moral coordinates of india would have created a problem at some stage. but the thing is that i think that the annihilation of cost is a text which is extremely important for people who haven't heard about medgar and who haven't read it to read. and this introduction is to an annotated edition of the annihilation of cost, and i wrote that introduction, and i took care to write that introduction because i feel that medgar is someone who's just been erased from history by the indian establishment. and i wanted to use whatever influence that i had to bring that text to the world which doesn't know about medgar. you know, a hero in india, but

he's virtually unknown in many places. and where there should have been a great solidarity between the civil rights movement and the politics of black hurricane and the dialects of india, you have a situation where gandhi is worshiped by black people if america because they don't know -- in america because they don't know the history of his absolute condition tempt for black people this south africa. [applause] oh, another question for advice. [laughter] any advice for a struggling writer? never ask anyone for advice. [laughter] [applause] when can we expect to read your

next book? look, if i come back here without my next novel, just don't come, okay? just leave the auditorium empty. just say we're not listening to anything more. [laughter] because i really, i really want to do that now, you know? which is not to say that it's not political, but it's a different and more subversive way of being political. how do you see social movements and the possibilities of popular politics in india after the new land acquisition act and the court ruling by the -- [inaudible] against the -- [inaudible]

i think that, i think that social movements and people's movements are going to come under a tremendous, a tremendous amount of pressure. not that they aren't already, but if we do, indeed, see a government headed by -- [inaudible] you know, in a place like that, i mean, all of you must have followed the protests that happened in delhi after the young girl was gang raped and murdered on a bus. of course, you know, the media refers to it as the gang rape as if it's much worse to be raped than to be murdered. but they don't even refer to the fact that she was actually killed. but during that year when that one incident happened, 1,500

women were raped by men, you know? i mean, 650 -- [inaudible] were murdered. but in in this area where i had gone walking with the comrades, a woman, an indigenous tribes woman, a schoolteacher who was accused -- she was captured by the police, accused of, you know, being a career for the maoists or something. a courier for the maoists or something. and she was taking to the police station, and she had stones pushed up her vagina. and the policeman who did it was given the president's gallantly award for bravery. so on the one hand, you have these fast track --

[inaudible] and all this talk about what has happened to women, what is happening to women, and on the other hand you have an institutionalized violence against women going on. and the public security act, it actually, basically anybody, anybody who is resisting this development project can be called a maoist and thrown into jail. and the jails, i mean, we have 3,000 custodial deaths, i think, if prison the year before last. -- in prison the year before last. in kashmir there are, you know, thousands of people who have been killed, thousands who have disappeared. but yet india is known as a great democracy, and there is a part of india which is a great democracy, it's just that it doesn't apply to all the people. it just applies to some people, you know?

so i think social movements are going to be under tremendous pressure. i think we're going to see the army called out against the poorest people and what india's very good at doing in the government is that it'll take young men from kashmir and deploy them in -- [inaudible] it'll take people and deploy them in assam, it'll take people and deploy them in ghana. in this way like a good colonial power, it pits people against each other. >> do you want to take an india question or a writing question? not that they are mutually exclusive. >> food question. >> food question. there are no food questions here. [laughter] not yet.

>> often the discourse and writing, both fictional and nonfictional, within the muslim-american community are highly apologetic and stay within the safety net of acceptability. can only ends up sidelining our identity. what advice would you give to -- [laughter] young muslim-americans and other minority writers in developing a strong voice in their writing? now, look, honestly i really, i really don't know how to give advice, you know? but i think, i think looking for acceptability is a very dangerous part for a writer. you know, because, for example,

when i write, when i write in all the work i've written including the god of small things, it's never written seeking acceptability. in fact, beforehand i know that i haven't, you know, written it from a position where i have a constituency that is going to stand up and say well done, you know? it's always, it's always, it's always something which makes the trouble pass through. and at the same time, it isn't as though you can just be brash and say, you know, the craft of writing is something which i think the more attention you pay to it, the less obvious it is, you know? it's like i remember a few years

ago i was in the hague because i had been invited to speak at this world water forum, it was called. and i didn't go. and then i heard that there was a whole delegation from india that had gone to promote dams, and so i just went to wreck the enterprise. [laughter] and i was sitting at, i was on some panel which was supposed to be a panel of writers. they were not really writers, they were also writers of policy documents for the privatization of water. ask we were all -- and we were all asked, we were all asked to introduce ourselves and say why we write about water. so the person sitting next to me was an american, and he said, well, you know, i write about water because i'm paid to. and i just want to say that god gave us the rivers, but he didn't put in the delivery systems, and for this we need private enterprise. so i said, well, i write about

water because i'd be paid a great deal not to, you know? [laughter] and i said, you know, everyone here calls themselves a writer, but what writers do is they spend a lifetime trying to close the gap between thought and word. can -- and here you are, all of you in this -- not you, i'm talking about them -- here you are doing the exact opposite. you're developing a language to mask thought, you know? so you're doing the exact opposite of what writers do. and is you can't, you can't really, you know, how you develop the craft of saying what you want to say or leaving the gaps or whatever it is, it's -- i can't advise you, you know? but i can only say that

acceptability spells death to a writer. >> we have lots of questions but not enough time. so maybe a last question. >> okay. >> [inaudible] >> what do i read? is that a question? [laughter] >> i pulled it out specifically. >> well, if i -- i read, i mean, i read everything from really bad, you know, human rights reports to poetry to a lot of things. but if i just wanted to, if i just wanted to mention one writer, i mean, not that there are not a hundred i could mention, but i would say for this evening's kind of talking i would read edward doe call the

yang know. eduardo galeano. [applause] >> thank you. i think now we can sort of move to the next state of the program. >> yeah, i think i'll just end with a three minute reading from my first, for from the first political essay that i wrote. >> and she's going to read all your questions afterwards. i'm not censoring them. [laughter] she's going to read. the ones that have asked for responses, i'll give them all to her. of. >> this is from an essay called "the end of imagination." whichs, which happened just after the nuclear test that india conducted. before the bomb i left home for three weeks. i thought i would return. i had every intention of returning. of course, things haven't worked

out quite the way i planned. while i was away, i met a friend of hine whom i've always loved for, among other things, her ability to combine deep affection with a frankness that borders on savagery. i've been thinking about you, she said, about the god of small things, what's in it, what's over it, under it, around it, above it. she fell silent for a while. i was uneasy and not at all sure that i wanted to hear the rest of what she had to say. she, however, was sure that she was going to say it. in this last year, less than a year actually, you've had too much of everything; fame, money, prizes, adulation, criticism, condemnation, ridicule, love, anger, hate, envy, generosity, everything. in some ways it's a perfect story, perfectly baroque this

its excess -- in its excess. the trouble is that it has or can have only one perfect ending. her eyes were on me, bright with a slanting, probing brilliance. he knew that i knew what he was -- she knew that i knew what she was going to say. she was insane. she was going to say that nothing that happened to me in the future could ever match the buzz of this, that the whole of the rest of my life was going to be vaguely unsatisfying. and, therefore, the only perfect ending to the story would be death. my death. [laughter] the thought had occurred to me, too, of course it had. the fact that all this global dazzle, these lights in my eyes, the applause, the flowers, the photographers, the journalists feigning a deep interest in my life yet struggling to get a single fact right, the men in suits falling over me, the shiny hotel bathrooms with endless

towels. would i miss it? had i grown to need it? was i a fame junkie? would i have withdrawal symptoms? i told my friend that there was no such thing as a perfect story. i said, in any case, hers was an external view of things, this assumption that the trajectory of a person's happiness or let's say fulfillment had peaked and now must trough because she had accidentally stumbled upon success. it was premised on the unimaginative belief that wealth and fame were the mandatory stuff of everybody's dreams. you live too long in new york, i told her. [laughter] there are other worlds, other kinds of dreams, dreams in which failure is feasible, honorable, sometimes even worth striving for. words in which -- worlds this which recognition is not the only barometer of brilliance or

human worth. there are plenty of warriors whom i know and love, people far more valuable than myself who go to war each day knowing in advance that they will fail. true, they're less successful in the most vulgar sense of the word, but by no means no less fulfilled. the only dream worth having, i told her, is to dream that you live while you're alive and die only when you're dead. which means exactly what, she asked. i tried to explain but didn't do a very good job of it. sometimes i need to write to think. so i wrote it down for her on a paper napkin, and this is what i wrote: to love, to be loved, to never forget your own insignificance, to never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you, to seek joy in the saddest places, to pursue beauty

to its lair, to never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple, to try and understand -- to respect strength, never power. above all, to watch, to try and understand, to never look away and never, never to forget. thank you. [applause] >> booktv is on facebook. like us to interact with booktv guests and viewers, watch videos and get up-to-date information on events. facebook.com/booktv. >> next on bv,