>> the order requiring security standards, one of the things it requires is that after the critical facilities listed done, each asset owner identifies the mobilities and it contemplates the day will involve government agencies such as law enforcement assessing the threat and vulnerability of a particular

facility. this is the geography and so on. in addition, these and other agencies in the dhs and the we i have done a 13 city tour around the u.s. and canada to explain the lessons and local law enforcement is one of the main attendees as i understand it at these meetings because as he said it could happen in any community. >> thank you for the question, senator. the most important and most effective security measure is the relationship between the utility company and law enforcement and we recognize that years ago which is why some of us have a standard that buyers if there is any issues of incidents related to cybersecurity that must be reported to local law enforcement and we require companies to establish contact with the law enforcement.

i think having that is very important and we also participated in the outreach. a third of it was in response to first responders and i think going forward and i envisioned facilitating one-on-one with utility companies and law enforcement and first responders to not only make sure in general they understand the critical infrastructure but specifics nations which important with what kind of response would be expected. >> thank you. and that was a wake-up call we all agree upon that. the reliability is essential for energy security and we are seeing more extreme weather events and is distributed this which is more resilient by allowing critical facilities, military bases, hospitals.

and that is why work closely with senator murkowski to support the district energy and other distributed generation technologies and i know that senator murkowski has a wad of stage wins in her state as well. and it's very important that we understand the appropriateness of this matter. [inaudible] >> the growth of the distributed generation is to make sure that our market rules and that two thirds of the citizens that are served by the competitive

market, that these distributed facilities can compete fairly and get paid for their electricity. we have put out a rule in 2013 on small solar installation, we have done this on my wheels and some of the storage applications and the response often relies on backup generation in hospitals and so forth and others and we are trying to make sure that there is fair compensation for them in the market that helps those grits thrive. >> figure. because i just believe that resiliency of the grid is important. and we saw in superstorm sandy, we saw this in places where they were operating in this mode, that it was a good thing for data storage in those kinds of things. >> might on on the matter, princeton, supported law enforcement, as much as new

jersey. >> absolutely, and that is exactly what i am talking about. thank you for bringing it up. >> thank you. senator risch? >> thank you, madam chairman. first of all, i would like to thank the chairman for holding this hearing in the grid is critically important to most americans as with many things, most americans don't realize how important it is to them when an incident happens and everyone starts wringing their hands and saying why didn't we do this or that. so i like to focus on something that is available to electric utilities in the government agent is a lot evil don't know about. in my state in idaho we have a facility called the idaho national laboratory and it is a flagship laboratory for nuclear energy and has been since the 1940s. it is the lead laboratory in america for nuclear energy.

what will people don't realize that is where the first reactor was built in the first lightbulbs lit area but what most people don't realize is that they have a lot of other missions and one of them is exactly what we are talking about and that is great security. since this is a relatively -- and i use the word relatively, new area of focus, although electric utilities have been focused on this for many years, it has become so sophisticated that it takes much more than what would be an ordinary effort. there are a number of facilities that everyone should be aware of area number one we have a full scale test grade that can be used to verify and validate modeling and research, which is being done on the grid. and that is being done here. this is a joint program and it

supports industry and government efforts to enhance cybersecurity of control systems that are being used throughout the electric industry, not only the electric industry but also the oil and gas industry. and so the wireless testing is all forward as we move with great security. so lastly, and this is important in light of this incident that has been talked about here, they are in the early stages of this. but they are working on a project to develop security and security physical protections and others for substations. so that is going to be extremely

critical and we are also very proud of the work that is done at the national laboratory. like i have said they are renowned when it comes to nuclear energy. but they have new areas that they are developing and grid security and it is certainly one of the things that they are going to be focusing on. the reason i wanted to talk about this is i want to make sure that everyone in the government agency knows that these facilities are available. because sometimes i have a tendency to lie under the radar. so i want to state that for the record and thank you for making this available. >> thank you following up on that. i definitely believe that technology is one of our friends here in the solution when we look at the spectrum of things that we have tried to do whether it is encouraging cooperation on

voluntary standards and i think obviously things like relay equipment, storage capacity so that you can move around. so what do you think that we need to do to encourage more of the development is a tax incentives, more regulation, more cooperation? >> i would first respond by echoing the comments of senator risch. i've actually been to the pacific northwest lab and they are very rich resources for the industry with information

sharing and we know of the testing and we also uses resources for training purposes and behind-the-scenes analysis of threats. and the grid is becoming more modernized. particularly in the west. it has been deployed widely in at this point i don't know if there's any particular incentive i would point out, but we are working to encourage industry to get better visualization and awareness and recovery tools out of that increased capability into the smart grid technology. >> anyone else? >> i would like to indicate that tools and technology is one of the things that we are making to try to improve the tools that we have to address this.

i would just also know that there is the emergency transformer program at the electric power research institute that is working on. the department of this at the homeland security department to develop a more affordable transformer that can be developed way. and more money would always be welcome. >> here the stick is the reliability standard and it helps people to meet their standards because they make the grid more reliable. in 2005 congress gave section 219 of the federal power act and we have ruled this for advanced technology and we put better

technology on their line and we have recently adopted a rule allowing them to have certain types of things because the rate regulation helps to support those investments. >> only talk about this, we are talking about the issue du jour and right now the 9/11 service in washington state is down. so it is, why not look at ways to further incident on the resiliency of this. so this is smart grid technology just figuring out why we don't see aster deployment. and why it is in washington state and we have lived and breathed and benefited from an electricity grid for a long time. so it's more of a geek does for us. so isn't there a faster way?

>> unfortunately i have to go though. i think you. >> i would like to hear the answer to that. so please continue. and thank you. >> would like to answer the senators questioned? two i'm going to take that as a challenge to go back and look at how we do our existing transmission. but most of it is governed by formula rates, as people and best they can recover and the question is whether we need to do something to better incentivize those. some of it is happening to market rules and rules that encourage storage technology is one of the things that was mentioned. >> thank you. let me follow up on that question. i'm putting two and two together about what it might be about. it is an issue that has come up several times in conversation

about federal and state requirements for a distributed generation and how that can positively and negatively affect the price of electricity. the ability of the requirement for utility companies to buy back our and so could some of you comment about the current status and also perhaps chairman, you should start. but i would like to comment that we will lose our second panel in about 10 minutes. go ahead and take that if you would. >> madam chair, thank you for the question. there is a wide array of stakeholder interest in this generation. we are working together. we are educating ourselves.

we are learning about the importance of being innovative and allowing customer choice. in time it isn't one from an economic regulator perspective to avoid cost shifting and ensuring that we have reliability that is maintained and certainly this is an important innovation that is happening all across the world. but also from an economic regulator perspective that's something that we continue to be challenged with, making sure that all interests are balanced. the best test to receive back to at any time. the interest of consumers from all walks of life and ensuring the inherent equity of permitting those that like to put solar panels on their

rooftops. so these are issues that we are exploring and educating and quite frankly our commissions are leading the way and being a. >> i want to come back to that question. but i think that senator portman is not. is there a scheduling conflict that we should know about? >> no direct senator portman? >> thank you and thank you for holding this hearing. i know that this is a focus of this panel on cybersecurity and we have also talked about reliability and i would really appreciate your willingness to move forward and i would like to ask a couple of reliability questions because we have some great experts here who could maybe give us a preview of what we will hear and also for us to hear from industry folks. the first, mr. chairman, i would like to hear from you about what

you think we ought to be doing in terms of reliability and price spikes of last week. you were quoted as having said that i'm also very concerned about the price and when you see these spikes it is a simpson that is causing this issue. can you elaborate a little bit on the two and is that an act of quote? >> it was in the context. they said we are mainly here worry about reliability and not price. and they are closely related because when you see this in january and february, that means the grid operates with very unusual things and that usually goes into the customer's pocketbook or its we need to look at what is happening and why. so we are in the middle of one of the biggest power changes that we have seen, particularly increased reliance on natural

gas to generate electricity. and so what we have looked in the tech conference last week is how we can get the rules right to make sure that we have the gas infrastructure in place so that the pipelines are there and secondly that the market rules are written in a way to allow people to buy their gas at a more economic time of the day and we are actually trying to change the timing of this market to make that happen. so the other thing i have been leaving is a look at the capacity market and we look three years or five years out because we needed need it in the system. so we have to make sure that the rules are written so that we are

properly rewarding was very stressed by the short-term gas prices in what could ultimately be detrimental to reliability. so we are taking a very focused look at what it means to survive in the market to make sure that the market price is right. that is very much what this was about. what can we learn and it right here? >> i think it goes to a lot of important issues and one thing we didn't discuss is the impact of federal regulations. and i think that that is important. in her testimony said that we should help them understand individual regulations and what their impact might be on reliability. you mentioned that you would work with the epa on finalizing

mercury and toxic standards and following the development of greenhouse gas emissions. now the epa is currently working on a lot of rulemaking. and it would include the utility. the particular matter, let me ask you this, with regard to those regulations, were they doing to help understand the reliability? >> we tried to be a source of reliability expertise and a lot of our work has been focused on that because that has such a short time. and we have had meetings on this

and a lot of this focuses on greenhouse gas. so i think as rules are developed that we need to be commenters in this stage, such as those that are coming out june 2 to make sure that those rules are achievable by reliability can be preserved and then if you look at the greenhouse gas rules they make changes for the markets and in the structure as those rules come in. i'm looking to make sure t i'm looking to make sure that we are keeping a. >> the front and i hope that you will do not just commenting that analysis for them is what the impact is. we talk about a lot. this is certainly reliability of

a cost and a price spike and we didn't talk about potential which is also therefore brownout and blackout and we have really stressed this in the system. we are at a potentially hot summer as well. as we are at a point where we need your input on the front end to give them comments some comments and also to make sure that these regulations will be any more difficult for us to have reliability. and who they think is responsible for these adequate reserves to maintain and construct a competitive market? >> the states played a critical role in deciding whether generation goes in a lot of

generations are fighting. but in two thirds of the country within ohio that are in competitive markets, we are relying on the competitive market to make sure that this is being paid so that it will be this day online will be built, which means that we have a big role to play in that is why the competitive markets have done a very good job over the last 12 to 15 years in deploying the assets or are in the bill and now we are in a major investment reichel and we need to make sure that they draw the investment that we need to keep the resources online for reliability and i think it has a big role to play. >> i know my time is up, but we do need to work on this issue for the next panel. and i do think that this is critical and i look forward to following up with you on this.

>> thank you. >> senator manchin? >> enqueue, madam chairman. ranking member michalski, i think she will be back. you know my colleague who just spoken about you both to have a hearing on this and i want you to answer this in such an expedited manner. which i really appreciate. there if you think the keep the lights off 24/7 and that is nuclear and coal. and these provide a 65% of the power this country demands. so without that we know we can't function and we cannot keep the lights on. so i'm having a difficult

situation was what we were dealing with. and we have electricity and there is the air conditioning or heat or the ventilator or oxygen, whatever it may be. and so will we have come through it right now, it is still 30% of our power and 30 plus. so you think about this that nearly 20% is being retired. and they are performing a performance standard banning the construction of any new coal plants, so then you start looking at the reliability and how do we maintain the system and keep it running and that is all i am asking this administration to look out.

so the current market, it's unlikely that we're going to build any nukes, and let him try and get we will replace it by 2050. as you know. so how can the system continued to work under the long haul where everything i have asked as part of this. and we are setting ourselves up for a major reliability crisis. a whopping 89%, i have two providers in this date and adp is slated to be closed. just to keep up with the demand. we have spoke to them and i appreciate they came in and spoke to me. but they were saying that this was a critical time and you know

that they would take emergency action to take the wisdom. and they've done a great job and i appreciate all of that. but they said they were down from 500 and 750-megawatt out of 100 warty plus thousand megawatts that the system could have gone down. with that being said they had produced the voltage and with that system there you have 10,000-megawatt coming off-line. what happened? are going to be short next year. slow start with you, chairman. should we be pushing certain kinds of fuel or looking basically at the portfolio?

>> thank you for that question. i would not take this for certain kinds of fuels. all concept of a market is that it uses a generalized product that allows different fuels compete fairly. so if there our preference is for certain kinds of fuels, that is not a fair market by definition. i think that you should try to go by reliability and not with a particular fuel is. >> right now just explained as simply as possible the system and the way it works now. we have producers that are responsible for producing the energy that is neither the goods

into the transmission which is what we are calling the grid and then we have this rpo's responsibility to make sure it is reliable and affordable and dependable, who makes the decision for the reimbursement rate would eat. so if you're saying that we think that the portfolios à la dons and we don't think that you can continue to give us what we need a lot more qualifier or gas generation or more renewables and i believe in west virginia we have been blessed. we have coal and gas and wind and we have it all. and we're using at all. they just don't like it. >> pjm data analysis three is out. and then they run an auction or resources dagan and they say that i have a lunch this and

that and some existing individuals say they will run at any cost. >> some say i'm only going to reimburse unwanted gas plant cost even though i know you need colon i can't do that. >> what you are referring to is embedded in the rules. so those rules have been approved which is why we are looking at the capacity. >> can you overrule this if you think the day have a portfolio that doesn't have a good mix? >> if they think we want to do this and if they save you do that this will happen to my plan, we try to balance all of that. >> super synergy can come to you and say we are shutting down. supercritical that we shut down because we can get reimbursed. >> just to make can do so. and can anyone explain to me the

price spike that went through, i'm hearing that it's unbelievable and they're getting almost double bills for double the cost of their utilities. can you give me a reason why that happened? >> the simplest way to explain it is during time when power was short because there were successes night and day times coal, generators that rely on gas and it's been a lot. >> to the gas companies take advantage? is the pricing structure so that we can't adjust quick enough when it's directed at us around knowledge there was no market manipulation and there was actual supply and demand for how much there was. >> samoan has long-term contract to inspect the price everyday?

>> some people have long-term contracts. but the price spike is more than there is gas. and that is what made it this way. >> it's more variable than a product like a cool. >> you we are putting all of our eggs in that vast. and those around the country will be held hostage. >> and 2010 we predicted the cold be retired. >> we've been working with the epa that overdependence on fuel and gas is not reliable. the other concern is that there is not any discussion in the value proposition of the

reliability provided by these units such as inertia and control and the harder it is going to be to manage liability on the grid. so we are seeing in these recent events are those that allow to operate whenever they'd like to operate creating price issues and not adding to the reliability. so our role is to get that message out there. >> so the difference is that you can turn this on and off as far as i'm renewables, but you can't turn off nukes and cool and once it goes it's got to go. >> senator manchin. >> i'm so sorry. >> that's okay. [laughter]

[inaudible conversations] >> and we have a second panel will focus on this as well. this is a warm-up and we really appreciate that line of questioning. as we close i want to thank you. it's obvious that there are many more questions and subjects to talk about. we have a second panel that will add some wine and illuminate the subject even more red but i do want to put into the record that coal is a very significant thing. and it has shifted quite a bit over the last 15 years. some of it as regulations, some is market driven. that we are going to look forward to drilling down more. >> one quick thing on this. i come from a surgeon and we have a large coal producing state. we have really been driven.

as someone said company come to me and listen. we have a new super fuel and it is commercial hydrogen and we will be ready in three or four or five years. it would be tough but we would adjust. i'm not here trying to push a product you don't want. when we hear from people like you, professionals say we have to have a, you have to have it, but you don't want to, but you know you need it. and that is what we are doing today. >> tank you very much. because you have been a leader and we appreciate your leadership. as the and this panel, let me express do in the strongest terms the american mainstream to abandon the pipeline. and that you cannot discuss this publicly, but this needs to be

responded to and again this gets back to the whole issue of getting fuels to people when they need it. this is about pipelines and electricity generation and extremely important for generating the men and women and consumers. so thank you and i'm looking forward to following up. again, thank you all and the second panel will come forward and we will momentarily. [inaudible conversations] >> ladies and gentlemen, if i could reconvene the meeting, thank you thank you for quickly

adjusting panels. we have six experts on this panel and we only have about dirty or 35 minutes left to go. so i would like to ask each of you to limit your remarks to women in if you can do it unless i would appreciate it because we do want to leave time for questions. also here representing perhaps from a different perspective, we are looking forward to hearing that. the executive director at present operations will also give us some additional in diet into the line of questioning that you have raised. mr. nicholas atkins, president and chairman us eeo and we thank you for being here today. we also have mr. james hunter and i'm proud to have the work

that you all do in the perspective that we bring to this is very valuable. the president and chief operating officer, thank you for being here. finally, we thank you for your views from the clean energy environmental defense fund and a perspective that you bring to this issue as well. so if we can start with you, we will hold two to four minutes so you can have this line of questioning. >> thank you, chairman senator landrieu i have been a member since 2006 and thank you for holding this hearing on this important topic. we have gone through quite a winter on page three of the staff hand out during the polar vortex events.

and he came through. i've consistently said that it is based on economics and affordability and it can be reliability neutral. the subject is too important and we have to maintain liability and we went back in 2011 and my response in house testimony that your which i called for a more formal process particularly environmental to my knowledge in that process has not yet occurred. but i still continue to advocate for it. we have had a couple of unusually one winter's for this one unit 33 weeks we are going to use all of that. sometimes we have a fourth year

were 50 or with some of the other panelists relating to that. so the region has very different messages attending on where you come from. but we are seeing a lot of stress, particularly with prices down. and specifically the midwest is looking at challenges in the summer of 2016 where they reserve the margin that will be a deficit. so although that has been put upwards, it it also depends that consumers will be using less electricity per year enough to dig assumption to make. we also have individualized situations and i referenced one in my written testimony where local area is going to be in a

conundrum as to how they move forward without a coal plant. so on this issue we have a variety of opinions. we have those that can get through this time without any problem. and we have others that are very concerned. my focus has been to try to get the data and where they are in the system, what they provide in terms of not just powerboat voltage or is very important. and as i have called for data, frankly we have had some that are contradictory and some that hasn't been particularly effective in we are not exactly competent and a lot of the numbers. that has me very to turn going in the next two or three years and i recall to the fact that we need to do a better job working with private sector in some kind of a formalized process to analyze the and a lot of it is just going to depend upon the weather, if we have mild weather for the next couple of years we might make it through. but if we have extreme weather

in the summer, the system will be extremely stressed and that is where reliability is paramount and frankly the safety and lives are at stake if we have extended extreme weather and the system isn't able to produce power. >> thank you get the chance to testify. >> thank you so much for cheering for the time. >> i want to thank the chairman and ranking member. i'm the vice president from pjm. we are going through a major transition and we see significant coal resources are tired honor system. it's part of our responsibility to maintain liability and as i mentioned we do run this and we look to procure this plus

inadequate reserve. throughout the next three years we have secured not only the minimum amount that we need but also access. without we believe that we can maintain liability. having said that, i would not will not tell you it will not be without a challenge. it is treated fairly radically with the availability of natural gas and demand response to meet our needs. we need to play a big role in it will still be one third of our capacity going forward. but it is in fact dimension. coal is being replaced by demand response and it is a contractual obligation. demand response is typically not available and it is typically

high-priced. one of the most highest priced resources honor system. so i would expect to see that significant volatility as we will have to rely on them as being part of this. and as we mentioned before we are moving into natural gas. we are going to be about a third natural gas and natural gas also has its challenges as well and typically it has been a very good resource for us and prices have been very affordable. during the winter when it competes with natural gas, we do see some difficulties in managing it and the prices can become quite volatile and may be reflected into the energy prices and the contractual terms have been onerous.

and we have had some of those increased costs as i mentioned previously. talking about the polar vortex, i would say it is probably one of the most difficult winters that i've been involved in last week at sears and we would probably have to go back 26 years to see another winter like that. we saw it demand response of 20 to 40,000-megawatt overwater typical winter would be. it's up 22% on our system and we were able to maintain liability even though it was a fairly difficult time frame. in summary i would mention that it is not realistic for me to say there will be an interruption. the having said that i do believe that we have met the reliability and capacity and we will be able to service and all

of the most extreme circumstances. this includes the energy pricing as saying. >> thank you, mr. chairman, thank you for putting on this hearing. it's been two years in the making there's been a lot of activity in the stated with this, including louisiana, west virginia, and ohio amanda had been certainly an area where we are very focused on the activities associated with grid. we have the largest transition system in the country and we are one of the largest in the country as well. when we look at the issues that have occurred over the winter, it makes us think of all of the

above strategy that includes production and that is not a good place to be particularly in the extremes. when people are living through extreme cold or extreme heat, people died as a result. that is something that i think we are very concerned about. so month ago i made headlines when i said it was called upon to meet electricity demand in january, that is a fact and in fact it is also a concern. those power plants will no longer be available after next year and the market on supporting the development of the generations to replace them. i'm not mean that we should abandon this or any kinds of activities for the war we have been concerned about all one has been what has associated with the transition and needs to occur so we can make decisions on what happens to the grid in the future and how we

accommodate the multiple set of diverse resources and how we are attached to it. so this could include the wintertime operations and we're trying to support several measures were changes to be made in the capacity so that we could adequately have a view of what each generation should look like in the market. we support that and it goes through the notion of not having long-term signals to support an investment and we are seeing over and over again stancil amount that will retire by mid-2015 and certainly i've heard operators saying that they are also challenged if there are not changes in the market.

so there's clear concern that we ensure that we are able to maintain that type of capacity going forward. they are retiring this and there's no turning back on those units. we are honestly harvesting those assets to make this with these facilities and it's a difficult opposition to go through. we are in that process and what we are concerned about is the additional closures that may occur as a result of not only in pending regulatory environmental position that may occur such as greenhouse gas rules and others that could have a more dramatic effect, but the issue we are really having as we are seeing the costs go up as a result of

regulations and other activities at the same time the other capacity markets are not supporting these grades and that is a key concern and that is why we are seeing these multiple announcements of retirements. so going forward when you think about the grid itself, there are many aspects that we talk about the physical security and security associated with the grid from a cyberstandpoint. every bit of employment should be placed upon not only this and the market direct but also environmental regulations impacting the reliability of the great going forward. thank you. >> thank you so much. >> i think nick said everything i need to say. and i appreciate the invite to come here and members, i'm the director and we have about 125,000 members nationally. 220,000 of those are directly

working in the utility industry in the u.s. and canada. the u.s. is facing a crisis and we believe in our generation that has caused by the demand for power that falls in the structure of the system. i have worked in the industry for over 40 years and i have never seen our generation of business in a worse position than it is today. many veteran members are telling me the same thing. we just had a conference with those from all over the u.s. and canada. and everyone is in total agreement that we are in deep trouble. we are not saying not only coal retirements that nuclear retirement and we submitted for the record back in 2011 and at the time the eta was saying 4.7.

all this came from common sense, looking at 40-year-old plants and those that were not capable of staying in service. that number turned out to be pretty much right on the nose. that translates into 50,000 direct jobs that come from real workers, plant workers and those in the industry. the number uses about four to one for any electrical generation employees and we're talking about 250,000 people losing their jobs in the next two years. the impact will be severely barty talked about how many of those pants are running during this polar vortex and we believe that next year we are going to be in deep trouble. we have been told that the issue

has been addressed with orders but we are also told that you cannot alleviate a civil lawsuit under the clean air act. so where are the utilities going to be. i totally agree with mr. akins and we know from the inside that it is an irreversible thing and we have people moving to other plants and we have people moving to other parts of the industry and people getting out of the industry as a. we firmly believe that we need to address some of the issues and the congress needs to address this double jeopardy issue. power plants are the heart of the industry trade hold fire and even the most clean and most efficient, we know that clinton's nuclear facilities are not 100% efficiency last year

and lost $30 million in common sense needs to tell people that there's something wrong with the market, i don't know what else would. we have a situation right now and i agree with senator joe manchin that putting all our eggs in one basket, i have been told that there are no long-term contracts and that we saw many situations where we are doing less maintenance and we have less people and we weren't able to bring some of this online because of that. and so there was one plan that starts the unit and they were able to get gas either. with that, thank you. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. i am the president and ceo of

the corporation and we are an energy producer with 94 plants in 20 states and we produce about enough energy for 30 homes. we are the largest in the united states and 95% of address is natural gas. we have 5000 megawatts of capacity in 90% of those have all fuel capability arguments. we believe the competitive electric sector is shaped in this transition from one of coal and less gas between coal and gas over the next several years. the market is not perfect. there are some changes needed and i will talk about it. but it is working. we strongly believe that competition and free market are

much better as a way to solve problems and having the government picked winners and losers. the market is encouraging investment as we have a power plant under construction right now and we are considering this as well. to talk about the cortex for a minute we all know the facts. very strong winter weather in the law has been talked about. but i think the facts are really important on this. the real issue is that there are 40,000 megawatts in 22% of the system forced out. of those 40,000, 30,000 to 75% were because of mechanical or operational failures due to weather. of those 3000 from about 9000 were natural gas and only about 1500 combined cycle natural gas that were forced out during

winter weather. so this isn't about overreliance but operational readiness and i want to make sure that we understand that because of the lot different than we should have much higher standards for how we operate in extreme weather events. so coming out and going forward, they're about 15 dozen megawatts that will be retiring over the next years and so we will actually have more resources than even after accounting for the retirement and some will be 30% above what it's supposed to be and then we will even be in better shape. so it's almost $3 billion of investment going forward that will create about five and a half of capacity and that 60,000 megawatts. so that being said, i think the

free market is working but there are some changes. first, the renewable tax credit which is now under consideration for extension and alluding to premature retirements. we have billions of dollars of taxpayer money and they actually run so you get the production tax credit. we don't know these resources will be there when we need them in this tax subsidy actually threatens coal plants to be talked about for the reliability of the great writ and demand response has been okay just like we do and they need to have the same walls. they need to be available all year round and not just one of the number of situations. and then third, better organization of power and gas and forth making sure that the capacity markets actually are appropriate. if you take this, you need to be

there operationally and with the fuel and if you say that you're going to be there, the need to have a different financial outcome than today. the second through the fourth, being handled all really put a lot of these processes. with that, thank you for your time and. >> thank you very much. good morning, madame chairman, and bush members of the committee. i am delighted to be with you this morning. my name is cheryl roberto and i serve on the clean energy program. it is not your typical environmental organization and is a former state regulator assert with commissioner in ohio and i likely don't date your stereotype of environmental activist areas we have worked with the critical and environmental problems to make market-based solutions and we are uniquely effective in that

approach the clear message that i want to share with you today is that with or without new environmental regulations, market-based changes are transforming our system and are like yesterday system can meet our reliability needs. as a former regulator and the system operator, no one has a higher premium on safety and reliability more so than i do. ..

>> the very model of a centralized generation itself is no longer part -- is a letter sacrosanct the technologies are falling and productivity is rising. in the digital world consumers have increased demand for power quality and reliability that meets for quantity are predicted to fall. as a result of our system is

transforming from ball one-way power delivery that working in which customers passively receive electricity to the two-way flow of power and information to which customers both receive and produce electricity. if 81 is concerned about reliability as i am it is difficult not to notice the power outages we suffered is not for much degeneration and. with the distribution system in fact, power outages due to severe weather impact costs between 18 and $33 billion per year. the acrid transformation can enhance reliability the energy system is a loosely knit together and to meet energy needs a more cost-effective lee in order to realize we need to unleash the innovation the

essay former regulator that history has demonstrated the non-negotiable covenants reliability. to do that we need to have all tools of our disposal to ensure that a robust reliable an integrated energy system is allowed to dependent exclusively upon centralized generation to the economy and environment generators and workers alike. thank you very much. >> that was excellent. we are under a little time constraint so i will just ask one question to mr. hill then we will turn it over because you have to provide at 12 said the will follow-up then close out the hearing. let me submit for the record

the price of electricity currently today from a high a in do york $0.16 per kilowatt dash hour for teenagers see an 14 california out arkansas wyoming fellow west but in addition to the epa's toxic rules managing compliance is the c i a steady is a little frightening but it does show the potential of natural-gas mr. hill we have had many discussions about the role of nuclear and coal and gas can you reiterate your thoughts of gas as the day's low fuel for electricity

production? what makes that possible? government rule and regulation or technology or the market or a combination of both. >> gas is perfectly capable to be a base load fuel in many markets around the world increasingly here in the united states. what has changed is the shale gas revolution we have been blessed with natural gas which is very affordable. this is not about government but technology innovation having a the resource that is much cheaper to extract than people thought possible now cheaper than other technologies. >> i will come back to a question imphal how experts -- exports with the supply

issues of natural gas in the united states but i will move over to senator murkowski because of time. >> thank you to each of you for very important testimony following up on our first panel. commissioner i want to recognize your of leadership in this issue. you mentioned the letter och when dash in 2011 of the reliability of the electric grid before it was fun and popular and generated a full committee room of interest. when i imposed a series of questions a couple of years ago that began to prompt a more robust dialogue the impact of federal policy on reliability we are finally starting to get some traction it is taking longer than i had helped but i do

hope what we have heard today just goes too much to the heart of this. if there is 1.of agreement of angst everybody at the witness table this morning madam chairman, we cannot be reliability neutral. we have got to ensure that the lights go on and to our electric sources, wherever they may be wherever they come from, they are robust, reliable and of course, they are affordable. i want to ask a question. talking about let is happening with the move from coal-fired power plants to gas-fired and mr. hill as you spoke to what is on line in terms of investment but how confident are read that

we have the gas pipeline infrastructure that can be placed in service in in time to allow the new gas facilities to enter when we need them for reliability. my concern about how this gets together i am not convinced we have a good handle what the investors are doing to move to gas but how do we get it from here to there? >> putting 5,000 megawatts of natural gas facilities it is clear if you go through that process it has to be done in a measured way. not just the resource but the to the for brodie from a natural gas perspective even

the day's low type of fuel you have to make sure that underlying grid is just as reliable as the electric infrastructure. wearily as good as the lowest common denominator. >> enough of the reliability of those systems? >>, had i don't think so spinet there is a lot of work being done not only in the terms of the nomination cycles but the pipeline activities are also looked at for reliability perspective we need to continue the process but you hit on the point is the timing because naturally there are parts of the country where natural gas was not very prevalent until recently. there's a lot of activity there in the self central part that has ben prevalent for years. it takes time to get the

infrastructure in place. >> as an mentioned there are billions of dollars of capital spent on this problem right now provide mentioned $3 billion in the dorothy stallone. what is driving that is the producers it is the market working. you have the polder for text head cassette single digit price hitting a constraint in pennsylvania but then just miles down the road there were a lot of gas producers that care about that and will spend heavily to encourage investment with pipeline expansion for the time period over the next two or three years' investment will follow. longer-term ready to pay close attention. >> i will defer. >> thank you for convening this hearing and i will also

think my colleagues for letting me jump the line before i preside. madam chair i was not able to be present for the questioning of number blind and i've will let you know, i had intended to rest questions about large power transformers and bilbies submitting those for the record but panel to thank you for your testimony. commissioner i think i walked in just as you were concluding comments about a the markets and i know ferc has taken time to look more deeply at capacity markets. given that examination and the performance to believe the capacity markets are performing as they should or are you considering any changes to the constructs or are you planning to receive

any additional stakeholder comments following the challenge the past winter? >> thank you. that would be relevant to the acting chair of the floor. we have read technical conference on capacity markets and at least once we have the staff and analyzing data as an ongoing proceeding that has a lot of interest. i cannot tell you where we are going because i am not sure what the options are but some of the discussion has been to reassign a higher value to those generating resources? whether that be oil, fuel rods, a coal, is there a greater value their? that is one of the concepts

that is help their. do their work as intended? the price was very high and a lot of that was referenced before with of pipeline capacity constraints. you would have gas 100 miles away trading at the national lentil than 20 times that with the different constraint of so you have to talk it more details and i don't take up your time. >> that i have a quick comment before i have to leave. as many of you know, wisconsin is no stranger to extreme weather or cold and this past winter we had a community event with dash 30 degrees. i want to say that things worked pretty well in the state in regards to the

actress is a talk about challenges with propane but with the transmission company in wisconsin and other transmission lines i am wondering with this extreme weather from other regions i would suggest you reach out to hear about best practices said in a given future hearings as senator murkowski and i talk about we want to hear from different parts of the country because we do think we can pick up best practices but it's i think that would be helpful to beyond the of record. >> senator you have the last word. we're limiting him to one hour.

[laughter] >> you have 10 minutes or less. >> first of all, thank you again it is extremely interesting. commissioner some senators believe that basically ferc does not play a policy role only overseas rates for the record will you tell us what ferc does and how much input they may have? >> we essentially create policy daley in terms of the precedents set. >> is that how energy will be produced or delivered? >> we do not have a role in the generation outside as a regulator of tied to a power production primarily a

safety and environmental rule. >> if they are not able you see they are not able to produce because they do have that power. are you able to step in to give them the ability? >> typically we call that a must run and we have several and we anticipate that is the essence of my testimony we needed deeper dive. >> so you have no input whatsoever of policy directory of generation? >> we are intwined. >> could you reverse the closure if ferc to not be

guaranteed cuddy reverse any of the closers letter under way? >> there may be areas where it is a possibility but we have to like it each individual circumstance because we knew these units would shut down for years when the approvals came out so as to be at the bottom of boilers you have to have us enough substantial investment back into the unit than secondly we have to bring up up again and we have skeleton crews for all the units. >> are they all the older units that were not scrub to be to the clean air act? >> small subcritical units. >> have you taken anything off line that does meet the

clean air standards as the past? >> all that we take offline do not have scrubbers. they do have protection devices but it is a matter to make investment decisions based on rules and what is required versus other options available and that takes time. >> were you concerned when first energy to a cough? >> obviously we are concerned when anybody retires a unit cynic but it met to the clean air standards spee milk they felt economically was not viable going forward with. >> because of pricing? >> the prediction of what future marquette's revenues would be. >> you did not encourage?

>> we absolutely got a call to make sure it would be reliable if they would choose to retire from a business perspective. >> but was the average increase that people were hit with? over the past four texts any idea how much debt went up? mcdevitt is dependent on the break with their suppliers. >> what price is repaid over what period of time you have to spend with the average price was probably well over $100 per megawatt power. >> that could double the bill easily? >> on a variable rate contract yes not on a fixed-rate. >> should be opened the gates? we have a lot of people want to exports lng we thought we

would import. should we open the gates on lng exports? >> our view is knows things that are free market obviously there are questions if you export whether prices go up. >> space the pricing of volatility of gas right now in our seats to set a good policy decision to open the unfettered market when we need so much of this market at a competitive price? >> i will not comment but i will say this that there is lots of it along supply curve. >> they told me that before but it did not turn out to be but they thought it was i hope there is as much i knew how much coal because i could see it. cannot see the other. i am taking your word is a you want us to open the

unfettered market i think that is the concern right now we get ourselves in one heck of the blind putting our eggs in one basket to make everybody shift because of the policy now anybody else who wants to try and please do. >> do you believe this government over administration policy or gender is in sync with reality or a head of the curve? >> i knew i should have cut him off. [laughter] >> i have one minute. >> but we do have two other senators. >> what can be done? >> are you put in a bind? vitter take a crack. [laughter] here is the issue. there needs to be a lot more thorough analysis and thoughtful analysis of i

would encourage anything for the existing of registration for the regulatory commission and department of energy to get together to have substantial discussions not only the environmental policy but the work of a other activities. that is what needs to be done. we are in a box because of the aggressive timeline put in place we are adjusting to that. the markets are trying to respond. >> it would be vulnerable for of period of time because it is the substantial transition and that takes time. >> the rule that we have talked about the most there are a lot of other debates including climate change but there is no debate that

mercury is bad for human health and cause says acid rain and smog a and respiratory tissues and the technology is 40 years old. 89% of the units we talk about on an average of 50 years old when they retire its a there is a question but no doubt about the rules >> thank you so much to senators that we will have to bring this hearing to a close. >> thank you. i appreciate being here earlier to hear the testimony from both panels i really wanted to tea at the questions if you have questions on those but let me go to the issue of how do you have the epa

coordination with the private sector? and with the utilities in particular how do you have this reliability? we came dangerously close. my understanding is there lives are at stake. partly because people rely on them for sheets you have to have electricity. we are in a situation that we have a huge problem with consumers having to pay more and get to the epa will continue on without any concern. of a distant and we need to

have regulations they had upgraded equipment specifically on the environmental concerns so my question would be the cumulative effect of the regulations is not analyze with no cost benefit analysis there is not a coordination with the utilities with the new regulatory model which as we talked about earlier is no longer with that historic model in conjunction with utilities responsible. what should we do about that? about better coordination to ensure we don't run into this same problem if we have the heatwave or another polder for tax mr. hunter? >> i think it is a great

point these to hearings are very much alike as we closed down more and more of the plants we depend more on the transmission grid looking at the grid coming from the substation we have a foldable grid in the make it more vulnerable the board that we close down. these epa rules affect nuclear as well we are beyond talking about 60,000 talk about the possibility of shutting down nuclear or super critical call. it needs to be addressed i had in my comments that the coordination and the cost of these new rules that end are cds to cut into the picture. they have significant cost

impact jimmy you're not looking at those. >> just to offer one thing it is important going forward with a future epa rules to allow that analysis to have been and we will be the first to speak up and again this is about time we gave to make the time to make the changes we will make the transition. >> we have all these plants shut down by 2015 that 89 percent is needed as mr. hunter said you shut them down you cannot bring it right back up and i

appreciate what this roberta us -- ms. roberto said that there are changes but in the of meantime my question is what can agree to right now? but if you could comment on that as well. >> certainly agree should take the time to get this rights. with other activities to ensure the right parties come together to make the situation better but it is clearly the notion of capacity markets with a cybersecurity coming together in the same if framework but bond to be thoughtful about but think of the issues that can occur.

talk about first contingency adages the system we plan that a round of the stressful events way take away resources and not on the take away power but of larger focus with the reactive power that many facilities provided. those are key components that maintained the integrity of the grid that people don't talk about with this over-the-top it did not provide that type of resources. to not only think about the power but also the ancillary services that reduced. >> stake to. i am sorry.

>> commissioner endured testaverde you explain you are concerned that epa has greatly underestimated the amount of power it would be retired due to its rules and since august 2011 have been calling for of four rule analysis of reliability of the electric grid and you have proposed the department of energy participates in this analysis that it has never convinced could you share some light to why it has not taken place? >> thank you. i have wondered that many times myself because what is the down side? they are not aware approvals that are driving this. so we have been in the awkward situation. there are informal communications. i know the epa calls every

month if they have something to talk about but they need more transparency and accountability. because it is not just one rule that comes into effect in april 2015 but the accumulation and the reliability consequences steve make you have disagreements back is the administration and the head in the sand or are they actively opposed to conducting the analysis because they don't want to see the results? >> i don't know their motivation. >> mr. hunter, a 2011 several unions testified about the cumulative beamed -- impact of the proposed regulation said to predicted the regulations would result in the retirement of 56 gigawatts and that

represents over 50,000 direct jobs over the next couple of years. the job loss comes from mines, rail workers workers, appliance and you stated these job losses will fall heavily on rural communities where most of the plants are located. why has the epa ignored the concerns of sure unions when issuing regulations? >> we have passed the question numerous times meeting with the epa director, a staff, originally they sat with the 4.seven number that it is not that big of a deal. now it has come true it is a big deal. and day furthermore regulations. california to regulation regulation, coal ash and multiple. everyone has the cost and then recede more plants closing. >> as the epa takes this

issue of job loss seriously when they issue regulations? >> it'll think they take into consideration the cost of their rules. no. >> in your testimony you talk about in sure ability of the electric grid how they could operate under the sub must run order to make sure it meets demand but you also note it must does not exempt from lawsuits are penalties under the clean air act so congress must address the double jeopardy issue between must run or they could be sued under clean air. which your union support legislation exempting to the of must run order under the clean air act? >> absolutely. >> it really has been an

extraordinary hearing. thank you for your participation. the record will stay open and another because. we encourage anyone to submit additional information. thank you for your patience ida you have additional things to add to the record. the meeting is adjourned. [inaudible conversations]

>> i think what we need is akin to the great commission of the bigoted mr. sure the of brad commission during the clinton administration. an outside group with integrity former members of congress no elected politicians to do a complete audit of government from top to bottom every agency has of piece of legislation or a charter, a purpose for cliff it is not fulfilling the purpose we don't to within reasonable budget it should be cut or eliminated. take head start. do you know, and i didn't there are three. early, enhanced and regular. applied to we have three? because the first was not working then the second did not work.

[inaudible conversations]

this hearing on european affairs will now come to order. like to welcome everyone here today and explain our situation very briefly we are in a quorum call to figure out the votes on the floor of the senate. we have been managed to escape but others are likely caught and we may be joined by others every decided to move forward not withstanding the activity on the floor. this is a hearing today a transatlantic security challenges for eastern europe our to vote to bar witnesses today our first panel are no strangers assistant secretary of state news enchant of the second penalty will hear from those that i will introduce later. of russia's invasion and

annexation of crimea has called into the key assumption of to do for centuries transatlantic security strategy that russia no longer poses a security threat to the alliance and the main challenges facing the allies emanates from beyond the ural atlantic region. with the afghanistan make mission please many to believe if nato policies instead russia as belligerent behavior will invigorate the alliance as was observed recently nato has stood the test of time mr. pretended church it will continue to do so. the most egregious security challenges the tens of thousands of troops on russia's border if he plans to invade or seize control or simply used the troop presence and teams to destabilize the ukraine and tell a friendly government can be installed.

recent events crystallize the debates about transatlantic security challenges of calling for increased defense spending and to prioritize territorial defense and energy security at the center of this conversation when we talk about the vulnerabilities of central and eastern europe. to get an update on the administration's response how the allies can and teacher aggression in to help countries in the region becomes strong, prosperous and independent. the local ministry made to make europe at peace. let me suggest a few steps to increase security and have the panelists' comments as part of the increased need a response the united states should consider tripp levels and secretary hagel has already said the third brigade is considered to

decide for us to reevaluate the historically low constraint and in europe devil send us a clear message to friends and adversaries as the tripwire has the same effect as the offense but makes better neighbor of the provisions. the united states and european allies should suspend sales to russia. we call for the u.s. government to end business relationship with the export agency and hoping france will strongly reconsider designed specifically for the impatient that was on the shores of crimea. now is a time for nato to approve the action plan for georgia it has divided the allies in the past not only will he fail to achieve but it is counterproductive.

with the upcoming summit. >> when we were over in an end ukraine we saw a sobering situation we have to face some pretty harsh realities and the tough-talking is fine but vladimir putin i am glad you layout concrete actions to change the calculus teacher vladimir putin in a very forthright and result way the sooner the better because ms. nuland obviously making sure the ukraine is successful with the best long-term strategy we have a short-term problem we need

to change the vladimir putin calculus now so he does not go further so look for the testimony and we appreciate you being here. >> both witnesses are well known we will start with secretary space to. >> thank you. i am honored to be here today over central and eastern europe before early devil take the opportunity to congratulate my friend and colleague of the arab rival of the newest member of his family. for over 20 years united states rory european allies have integrated to the bilateral engagement lead the wto or the nato pressure in council but russia's

actions are an affront to the effort to fundamentally change the landscape of eastern and central europe i appreciate the opportunity of the impact of russia's impact on the ukraine and other challenges in the region. creches occupation of crimea has an illegitimate referendum to tarnish its credibility and diminish the international standings in the eyes of the ukrainians and the overall. and today you craig is a front-line state struggling for freedom and all principles of the trans-atlantic community hold near the united states stands with the ukraine to forge its own passport to a more peaceful and free and unified future we're grateful to the members of this committee including our

chairmen and ranking member for their mentioned for the people of the ukraine. policy approach includes four basic parts the bilateral and multilevel support for the ukraine. the cost to impose on russia for aggressive actions. third, ever studiously the crisis and foresaid referring commended to the security of our nato allies who also live on the frontlines of the crisis. let me address the first three briefly. first the support the ukrainian people and the transitional government in the steps they take to restore economic health democratic choice and internal stability to the country. to have landmarking anti-corruption measures that have taken very difficult steps to reform the energy sector beddy-bye will be painful but they're absolutely necessary and opened the way the united

states loan guarantees will vote to implement the of reform to cushion some of the impact on the most vulnerable members of the ukrainian society and we think the congress for their support of the loan guarantee. also using more than $100 million of bilateral support to strengthen anti-corruption and record a one dash efforts and having people to prepare for free elections. second russia pays a high price of ready that cost local of the pressure does not abate. sanctions already in place are now considering further research -- issues to put pressure on russia. we want to do escalate nfl possible after many weeks of refusing to speak directly

to the ukraine and the russians have agreed to sit down next week including the ukraine, e.u. and u.s. '02 discuss the escalation and demobilization end constitutional reform and we will see how that session and a dose. also the pressure on georgia and azerbaijani and other members it has been under economic pressure either propaganda to associate with the e.u. and renewed his separatist efforts. we're very grateful all that you well-traveled next week or this weekend to moldova they will appreciate the support. we have intensified political and economic support and to the other states and this effort to build be sustained.

the huge trade crisis highlights another challenge the protestors had many grievances but one of the most galvanizing was the pervasive corruption that wasn't used every aspect of the ukraine society as secretary kerry highlighted at the security conference we are seeing a similar disturbing trend where through eastern europe and the balkans for the aspirations of citizens are trampled by the interest that use their money and influence to stifle political opposition and dissent to by the media outlets and we can just roll independence of the judicial lowe's. we also see if these corrupt politicians working together across national lines to help maintain their influence to keep the cash flowing to keep their

system. corruption of this kind does not just brought a democracy from the inside but makes them for the ball from the outside of the country to seek of undue political influence or decision making. in many parts of europe corruption aids to be a higher national priority to protect and defend democracy and protect and defend the state sovereignty for chris to look to shore up what is so vital fighting corruption and must be a more central line of the effort and it will be going for her. some of the the ukraine crisis is a wake-up call to accelerate other work with the more prosperous transatlantic committee and the renewed need runs along

the native eastern border beans the european allies must first city the downward trend in the defense budget has revitalized we must also strengthen the economic ties and a solid growth and job creation of both sides of the atlantic by completing the ambitions partnership agreement. green bus to march together as a transatlantic committee to strengthen the independence and internal energy market to guarantee reverse flows of energy to build in sure connecters throughout the continent. it has intensified the focus on a broad set of transatlantic security challenges and opportunities john tupper wrote to a europe of peace.

i'll look forward to your questions. >> mr. chairman and ranking member johnson thank you for having me here today to discuss the transatlantic security challenges that we face and to strengthen our allies there. after the illegal actions in crimea we augmented nato air police to send additional fighter aircraft. we deployed aircraft and personnel to poland's with the first aviation to dash three and extended the state in the black sea to conduct exercises every will deploy another ship next week to the black sea for interoperable with a. nato has passed a platform to fly orbitz the united states wants to insure they

augmented presence along the borders on the air on the ground and at sea. in addition to reassuring or allies we have taken prompt action to support the nato partners. the department of defense will review and prioritize the assistance request for materials and supplies. the first round was completed last week with the debris of 300,000 of those that were in the field the ukrainians ask for the assistance to be worked hard to accommodate this request. denies states has maintained a senior level dialogue is just last week we had us senior dod team and this morning secretary hagel talked with the ukrainian counterpart by phone. also exploring ways to support and reassure other partners to feel threatened including georgia and

moldova. the illegal military action challenges the fission of a europe whole and free in that piece has rasmussen said but his visit this the greatest threat to european security since the end of the cold war. nato has played a critical role. president obama reaffirmed that are committed to nato is the most important element of national security. this alliance which celebrated the 65th anniversary is the organizing framework for allies to work together to manage a crisis with integrated military structure to take action and represents common values. would never the agree to remains the essential glue to hold the alliance together. keeping nato strong is critical to meet the continuous crisis that has fed responded to a for the

past two decades and underscores the point it comes at a critical time and allies prepare for the nato summit this summer in wailes. allies to have to balance competing issues every reason we must transition the of finance the most challenging operation ever. second we must work to strengthen the relationship between nato and the partners that have contributed from libya to afghanistan. most important we must reenergize the political will of the allies to invest with defense capabilities natalie demonstrating their resolve to allow the alliance to meet the challenges of today and tomorrow. this was complicated by the threat picture that forces to the allies to cut spending including defense investment.

and then with the transatlantic alliance to come from many years of investment this spans across the administration of both parties simply put if nato did not exist you have to amend that. >> record your questions. >> rabil just run through three questions the first of which now is the time to mount a serious defense as to why we need troop presence when i was a member

of the house that made sense to people of those circumstances have changed. so over the course of the decade. >> secretary hagel said what we're looking at attitudes the troop presence that has gone down significantly. so a general and the yukon commander with the steps with the european partners with the allies is the unilateral steps that steps

taken ashley alliance and he will be reporting on the planet next week. i don't foresee major changes from what we tried to explore our ways to leverage these irritations both appointments -- deployments which is of modest investment and of very small print but very significant to transition in through the f-1 sixteens we can augment and build on that. we can work closely with the partners to build the capability but it would be efficient during these times tonight:is requesting to nato brigades. >> that is something general breeds of his working

through so we are waiting for his assessment. second point we initially made with military sales it is difficult to understand how the french could continue tussaud ships to russia that ray identical to the ones used with the illegal invasion of crimea. to you think the european allies are serious about ending military relationships with russia in those make of this crisis? >> we have very frank conversations with our colleagues suspending sales overall. citing the executive order to give authority that those are the things we would consider. we have not done that yet but we have the authority.

so across the government has had frank conversations with several french colleagues about the relationship with russia. >> i will ask this first but for more cobbler on what you believe to be a successful summit. the devil i asked specifically but respect to the question of the march 3. i understand there are serious steps to be taken before they are a candidate with the action plan can have slap -- lots of steps and caveat and hoops to jump through it is of a strong signal to both russia and our allies we are serious about keeping the open door policy if we refer to give a

map to georgia. there are other countries interested but if you could both comment generally and specifically to in georgia. >> i will take the first answer. the door remains open it is something we strongly support and in the case of georgia of the support the ambitions. georgette dod prospective u.s. government as so-called georgia is a terrific partner they are with us in afghanistan without caveat for taking risks they have committed to remain with us post to training in afghanistan they are a strong partner. be are supportive of the bishops' action plan and three have expressed that. this is the alliance decision not that we make

this alone so we work closely with our partners through this process and go be a subject as we feed to the wailes summit. >> he has articulated dutifully but to say the georgians are well aware they do not have consensus in the of finance. . . n supporting them as they make this case directly to individual allies. that happens very soon for georgia is it is on track to sign its association agreement with the european union, which will deepen its relationship with many of these same countries. a are hopeful that will have positive impact on how they assess its worthiness from that. >> i will stay outside ukraine and maybe use a quick second round to talk about ukraine to do you were justin moldova -- abuk