good old ricky nelson's home. song.i wanted to be in show buss early on and now the news has become show business, so i have arrived. mary glenn. one or two? that's why i always ask. ♪

very you go. thank you very much. >> so good to see you. that's a good one. [inaudible] [inaudible conversations] did she break her arm or something? and told me that she broke her hand or something.

did she have some other things [inaudible] [inaudible] how long are you in town? three days. >> havhave you already seeing sf the cherry blossoms? >> [inaudible]

any initials? [inaudible] who is that? [inaudible] >> i would love to come. thanks for coming out. really appreciate it. >> my favorite 200. how are you [inaudible]

>> that would be a. >> she definitely wants to get together before she leaves to go home and i told her she ought to talk to you guys. >> we will find something for her. >> [inaudible]

spell the other one. >> daniel. [inaudible] >> can you imagine to have your whole life open before the public. running for office i said it took my mind. >> [inaudible] we will do dinner at your place. >> [inaudible] >> lives in santa rosa

california. >> as a college student today gave me a copy of conscience of the conservative. >> [inaudible] >> it's hard to believe, isn't it?

[inaudible] >> will you sign this for my mom. >> what is her name? >> [inaudible] >> she lives in denver. >> denver may have had less snow than we did this year. [inaudible] thanks for coming out. hope to see you soon. >> what is your name? >> robert. >> [inaudible conversations]

>> you've got to these days. no one can afford to be tired these days and i don't want to be a wal-mart greeter. [laughter] [inaudible conversations] we talk about gun violence and the types of homicides and homelessness [inaudible conversations]

>> in most cases you should have alternatives than incarceration by forcing them to pay back. it makes the individual responsible to the person and reduces the cost considerably to society of warehousing people. the other great line from shawshank redemption where they say i was an honest man on the outside and i came to person to learn how to be a criminal. you don't pay much attention when you put them in prison.

>> it is so good to see you. appreciate you coming out. you have an armed guard at the door. [inaudible conversations] >> so glad to see you back behind me where you belong. i appreciate you making the effort. i know parking down here is a pain. thank you brian lamb for another day of exposure on c-span. you can put that on the christmas real. do you know the first thing that

we met? >> it was in lynchburg. do you mean before the la times -- i just started. yes. >> you found out that my parents lived in lynchburg and i walked in the door and there you were. are you still in lynchburg? >> at the same house that you had of those cookies.

[inaudible] if i knew that yo you are cominn i would have introduced you along for jim. we have at least a couple of the great ones here. thank you for everything you did for me. it's only good stuff. if you want to come up and tell a lie.

[inaudible] thank you so much. [inaudible] [laughter] >> my only time to get on tv. [inaudible] you know the history i'm sure.

[inaudible conversations] when i went to germany through the archives i was fascinated reading the sign to be co- transcripts of the scientists and they were 70 page documents which showed in a very subtle way how the program began so you have these intelligence officers running about hitler's nerve agent program that we didn't know about and the the bl weapons program we didn't know about.

the real decision comes down to should the scientist behind or hired? >> you can wash this an watch tr programs online at booktv.org. we should have finish al qaeda in the 2001. the general was ther general wae than just the general. think that we were attacked on 9/11. 3,000 americans died more than in pearl harbor. we had to call up delete al qaeda and osama bin laden trapped in the mountains. we didn't finish him off. then we lead and to inescapably other side of the mountain because he said that pakistani territory. can you imagine during world war ii when we had the admiral win

the battl battle of midway that changed the battle in japan he sailed across the international baselindate line in the pacificd attacked the japanese committee storing their fleet in 1942 he went across the international date line. suppose you turn back and say that the international date line and japan said if we don't pass we will take part and you take that and we will live happily ever after. we get to these mountains in the middle of nowhere and allow al qaeda to escape. it makes no sense. the entire country had become more legalistic we should have finished it )-right-paren

we had either a very optimistic view, th the change is happenint looks like eastern europe but it is not that they had the view that it is only about the islamists and nothing could be done because they were not ready. in my book i make the case it is neither one or the other but both at the same time. so from 9/11 until 2011, they have efforts in the region. we remove removed it, then to te regime. we get space in those two spots

for the society to emerge and play the game of the democracy. many in washington forget to that of the next two peaceful nonviolent resolutions that had failed but were impressed by what was happening at once and only the baathist party that many political parties it was a democracy but that is how they begin. so, i make the case in this book that the arab spring was influenced on the precedence 1.48 million people in the 2005 rose against the occupation. it wasn't entirely successful because the weapons remained. and the revolution in iran after 2009 but also tried to rise against and they had their own experiment. to answer the question, the jihad us that have been moved.

they are growing in yemen and somalia and i don't even begin with what is happening when they've expanded into lebanon and egypt is fighting them so statistically speaking. now we are talking about the third-generation. next an interview about the book blessed. the prosperity of the preachers like joel's team into joyce meyers. the interview was recorded at the washington duke inn during

north carolina. >> blessed is the name of the book called american prosperity gospel. kate is the author. professor, what is the prosperity. >> it developed a special vocabulary for how exactly they reach out into the invisible and bring back material. it was brought in to tumble openness to the spiritual gifts on the power of god to be spoken through a spiritual time but it is the times and wonders of the mentality that god is just around the corner and you have to keep your eyes open.

so it is one version of that but looks slightly to do different things that pentecostalism. >> when you say things that doesn't mean while. >> they were material, too. it's profoundly american things you could say you're not just an individual do-it-yourself bootstrap are. you're someone that can be a manifestation of the presence. it can be more concretely in the health and a kind of historic tenant. however the little detail in their life would actually prove that they were there. >> in some ways it is an indigenous american gospel of

the rigid individualism, supernatural bootstraps and incredibly high anthropology. there is no information that seems more confident in what they can accomplish than this one. do they call it the prosperity of the gospel? >> some of the features i would include as the most popular. frederick price is a megachurch that yo he will find it a prosperity teacher. no one wants because a prosperity teacher and that was kind of the burden of writing the book. did some of the ministers participating about? >> i managed to visit a quarter of football of the mega-

churches, interviewed some representing the ministry from almost every major ministry went to every major conference. >> what did you hear, what kind of message are the churches preaching? >> i think what surprised me the most is that it wasn't so much about money. i thought it was the most surprising claim. surely this is a gospel about money and what i found his people didn't talk about me as much as i expected them to. the kind of mentality but that their budgets, their families, their marriages, their happiness, their promotions come every little part of their lives were worth the other spiritual

attention. is it more of just a wealth prosperity? >> they would call it a whole life prosperity. in theological terms we would say something as overly realized meaning that we will see more of the presence of the kingdom of god here on earth when traditionally the christians thought that most of the good stuff happens after we die. >> isn't it something and i'm paraphrasing what you give god gives back ten fold? most of the hard numbers people will get from the parts of covenant theology there is a member of three, seven, apparently hundreds, the people are looking -- the desire is a desire to look for a spiritual

formula. where can you find the key to unlock the bank so where there is a member revelation an numbee of the coptic literature to try to find in the formulas. they tried to shy away from the numbers in part because the greater sense gets more in the relatively concrete financial universe, so we cannot promise anyone 100 fold. i guess the mega- churches were easier because there was already a database of the 1600 or so that exist in the country. it goes through every single one and makes my own list based on the shared rhetoric and institutional connections. they tend to go to the same conferences and get accredited honorary doctorates from the same schools.

i figure them if they look and talk and talk like a prosperity dock in this case than i can lump them together. the relationship between fundraising and the large church seems to be kind of natural allies in many senses. we will sometimes find a smaller church who takes on a prosperity theology and then so becomes a prosperity megachurch. only a minority of them are prosperity megachurch is. the biggest of the big churches in the country teaching message and the influence is enormous. it's like the top of the futile.

>> lakewood church, jules dean, 38,000. that is a national weekly attendance? houston texas, the ministries of the dollar 30,000. college park georgia. the $30,000 in dallas texas are those prosperity churches, the top three clicks >> any of the last ones that i listed as a kind of helpful shorthand as to where to find the churches are all prosperity churches and most of them make the top 50 they are entrepreneurial in spirit. the churches themselves are tax-exempt but what they typically do if they are very few misses they split the churches into for-profit. so they have the church and the

enterprises. and he's a great example because he is a producer, writer, film writer i mean. >> and that is the profit taxable side? >> that's right and they would say don't get m look at me necey as someone is taking the money out. i make most of my money from the southern wing and that is sometimes true for some and less true for others. they don't have to justify how much because of the theological infrastructure of the movement. all they have to say is i did it and i can show you how to do it more. >> sunday but spoke at president george w. bush's inaugural windsor village united methodist church 14,000 attendance in houston texas. >> it's one of the big surprises and why it took me so long to

write this book is in order to demonstrate how widespread it is we have to take into account not just the stereotypical prosperity that are nondenominational but some of the denominational ones that in almost every major american denomination we find at least one so that could include united methodist as adorable as they are and disciples of christ. we are just shy of a presbyterian church out there somewhere i'm sure. >> when did the prosperity gospel --'s first voluntary political philosophy, do they talk politics? >> they do but it's a kind of subset. we can think of them as having different species, you are the prosperity to the prophecy leedy into politics dude. there would be a subset that would overlap the christian right but for the most part they don't really need to talk nuts and bolts of politics because

they were offered the runaround for systems that oppress them so what they need tbut they need tt serious about their faith and doors will open. >> when did this movement start? >> i think of the beginning is the message of the postwar revivals in the 1950s so these are pentecostal independent revivalists that showed that the small towns, put up giant cathedrals and attract hundreds and sometimes thousands of people. these have traditionally been healers with the anointing in his right hand they were usually healed from all kind of diseases that we find a number of diseases that need to be healed and reduced and there is the sense that those aren't quite the thing things winning from

preachers and so there's a developing confidence that they have come a new vocabulary that springs up and multiply or see the space is a word that comes to terms. it isn't just a concrete thing but it's a representation of what could happen. it will then multiplied back to you. it was quite discreet and concrete. 10% of what you've already earned the asked to give and receive in the spiritual universe. this is absolutely innovative theologically speaking. >> jim and tammy bakker.

>> i like the fact they started a kind of christian wonderland instead of a church. they had a very see what god can do attitude. she was always two seconds away from bursting into a song, he had a blue suit and a gold watch and a kind of carnival atmosphere in their own life and marriage sites because of that that they were so magnetic and fun to watch and it kind of had that who knows what will open the doors spiritually and see what god brings and. >> who do the ministers appealed to? >> there is little good data on that. there are no resources to draw on. we do know that in the 80s the televangelists were attractive to the silver said, the alternately, the at-home viewers

but now we can see with the megachurch phenomenon this is a middle-class phenomenon everyone thinks it's the indigent poor but this is the kind of thing the aspirational middle-class is going to see to get the practical resources how to think about their jobs and their marriages and their parenting as a spiritual. right now i'm doing anything on latino prosperity churches and it's overwhelming how many started just in the last ten years. they are kind of the new fresh face on the scene because they were largely constrained to the immigrant resources, small churches with fewer means but now like everybody else they have their own tv showsthere are enormous media platforms. one of the offshoots for example

of the crystal cathedral anytime that you have a church with a river i feel like you have a prosperity gospel in and of itself. but the latino church became an offshoot that was favored a church is a bettina prosperity offshoot and they have a whole host between three to 5,000 weekly tenders. >> you teach religion here do you ask duke? what is your religious background? spinnaker income from a nondenominational mennonite background. >> and you considered yourself christian? >> i do. >> when you look at these churches what appeals to you? >> i guess that sense of

possibility. it is such a department from the churches i go to where it is we will run an excellent food program, with help robust the outreach is. they are concrete and very practical and i love the excitement and enthusiasm. i love in a way to spiritualizing of the detail. against dignity to every person in a way that impressed me. >> what does not appeal to you? >> i think i experience but just based on where i sit. the choir is inspirational, it is an optimistic think that if i'm near the wheelchair section sometimes i struggle just to make it through the services when you see people that are so sure their faith has let them down and their bodies are failing them and they have a weekly experience of their own inadequacies because they are

not healed or rich. i wanted to be a place people receive comfort where we are told maybe but not quite yet and if it isn't always the message they are getting. >> of the students at duke, do they admire and aspire the megachurch pastor's? >> for the most part they are methodists of a gentle varieties of your largely stuck in the same kind of mainline problems everyone else is. big churches largely downtown that they can no longer afford so they struggle with their own questions. what happens if they cannot prove in the ministry things will become bigger and better and still have a rhetoric of faithfulness i think it is a challenge. >> they are growing though aren't they? >> they are around the urban

metropolis and they are a wide open spiritual market but they appeal to a certain kind of preacher. you have to be charismatic with a head of hair and an infectious sense that things always will get better. people will rarely attend a church where your kids might not be as smart, your marriage might fall through. americans want to hear things are going to be better tomorrow and the fable of way to churches that challenged that. >> do politicians -- or they'd drawn to these large congregations? >> absolutely. we see it in a kind of battleground state whenever there is a series. latino churches for example in florida are popular. it's a swing vote, pentecostals in a swing state they can become effective ways of mobilizing people and getting the message

out. are there areas where most of these are aggregated? it's easy sometimes to tell where the prosperity mega churches are not. vermont for example, very few. the northeast isn't fertile ground anis infertileground ande mountain west. there are very few prosperity mega churches there i think because of the populations. they put them at the crossroads of major highways and so where we find the open spaces with the major highways and the populations in the sun belt cities those are going to be fabulously fertile ground and also places where people are on the move so places where

hispanic immigration is on the rise. i can talk people right now where to plant churches but it's about the population densities in major highways. >> here in north carolina and a mega churches here? >> there is one prosperity mega church in the area, the world of the newcomers -- and this one from the 1980s. it's kind of an amazing story one of the few that wasn't really urban. it was anytown where the church hahas more people than the town was in. they had the kind of sham and a tammy faye appeal where they have the matching suits and that really exciting kind of attitude. >> what is the difference between a megachurch and a prosperity mega church quirks or

the preaching different gospels? >> mega- churches have a reputation for being nondenominational optimistic, things can get better, media savvy. but for the most part number wife many if not most o most bed to the nomination if they are typically small so most of them are barely getting that threshold at 202,500. prosperity mega churches i look for four things, i look for faith, the sense that it's not just hope for trust but it's a spiritual power that is the least be leaned by the levers and it's an invisible thing that goes out into the universe and draws back. how do you know your faith is working? look for health and wealth. there's a lot of pentecostal churches that preach hope. the last one is victory.

it will put a spinning globe on every logo. it convinces people things are just about to get better. if they preach those that would separate the prosperity mega church from an average. >> how important our spouses? >> extremely. they are the primary witness test whether the prosperity gospel is working. no one wants to see a sad man standalone in the pulpit. what they want is his beautiful wife standing beside him. it's also a great way to divide the ministry. the women can be the women and children and the men can do the heavy lifting of the main prosperity work. that became very popular in the 1980s and has become a major trend. >> do the ministers of these churches flaunt their wealth?

>> absolutely. they will do it in more or less tasteful ways. there was recently some flak for advertising that his helicopter was asking people to donate and i think the number was $52 per person in order to supply more for the ministry. that struck people as too much but that just goes to show you how far they can go in order to demonstrate that their lives are marked. >> so sunday mornings joel's team for half an hour just his sermon. what is a full lakewood church service like? >> it would start with uplifting music by the grammy award-winning singer and songwriter and would have some

called combo and people greeting you into the sanctuary into the gorgeous enormous building designed to be the most beautiful places people are every week so truth and beauty has always been the main appeal. >> how long does it last? >> you will have 20 minutes or so of music and then a typing sermon that would frequently be done by victoria alstyne who asks people to give particular understandings of if you give god will reward you with more than the bucket come out and he will preach for a little less than half an hour and then a spiritual song ground up and that's the service. they are quite efficient. i went to their good friday

service in part what a written tv to initially surprised me because we don't need as much as they need easter. so good friday was what a good friday service look like? i was wished a happy good friday at least 15 times on my way in. they had kind of a living zoo. early on in the service i think it shows you how they want to rush to the end to show do that jesus does all the terrible work so that we can get all of the beautiful blessings. >> a lot of the mainline churches like you said outreach food banks etc.. do the prosperity churches have those programs as well?

>> they do and here you can see the spectrum of the approaches. it's that instantaneous view of the faith and reward. you will find yourself almost instantaneously healed. now the soft prosperity will have a more roundabout gentler appraisal of how the relationship between faith works. there is more of an emphasis on the individual social services, the bootstraps kind of service will be rather than advocating for example for educational reform, they would give every kid a school bag filled with school supplies. so, something cater towards individuals and as a family level. the soft prosperity is a little more open especially among the black man in churches a lot more open to housing, prison reform, the wide macrolevel kind of

solution. though for the most part it tilts away from the structural solution because god has already given you everything that you need in order to solve these problems. >> what has been the reaction of some of the church members to the book? >> i think there's been -- i hope they're spent a little of recognition that those are categories that they use and hold dearly. i think there will always be worried that anyone that's adding the word gospel like prosperity gospel before the word is naturally a big skeptical but for the most point it is that god is too nice and i would rather have been somethinn something people didn't recognize as themselves. >> who says that you're too nice? >> most everyone. even evangelicals are not thrilled with me. one called it dangerous for fear people would read the book and accidentally convert.

i just think it's the word of history. work of history. charity and the humor is the goal and when we try to present things in a way that people would recognize. >> argues church is not evangelical? >> welcome to the boundaries of pentecostal our chorus and we have a line between the pentecostal evangelicals but more and most are straight up evangelical. they wouldn't necessarily espouse the gift as a main part of their theology. and i think that is a new frontier for the prosperity gospel as white evangelicalism books so much like the gospel optimism that it would find it very hard to distinguish itself. >> are the prosperity churches considered anti-intellectual by some? >> yes, i think they are in part because they don't want to play by the same rules. they don't want to go to the same schools or subject themselves to the same kind of i guess historical debates on

where they fall. we should think of them is naturally restoration will buy in polls. people who immediately forget their history in order to think about god's revolution is always falling afresh. so if you ask a prosperity preacher where does the message come from a presbyterian u.s. with them and they will know. you ask a prosperity preacher and they would say it came to me in a train, or god spoke to me. so it is any erasure of history. and in that moment, it allows them to have all kinds of creativity. and early on he got into an affair that had some trouble with theological creativity and which of the sense of the open revelation led him to wonder if maybe each member had their own trinity that came up to nine and it got awkward but the problem especially is that it was in the holy spirit that had already sold millions of copies, so in a subsequent way he kind of walked that back. but he immediately thought like people were laughing at him and that it had just been kind of a

what he wanted as a kind of playful moment other people thought of as not following the sort of rules of the orthodoxy. >> any of these church ideas exported canada, mexico, europe? >> when you ask me it's so hard to tell because almost immediately it is in digitized. it takes on the flavor almost immediately. so there is a canadian version. it's a little bit more staid with a little dancing. but, you know it is fabulously adaptable. so a nigerian prosperity gospel but there is a ukrainian prosperity gospel, there's an english prosperity gospel. it's wonderfully variable. >> kate is a professor of

religion at duke after the divinity school. she is the author of this book blessed the history of the american prosperity gospel published by oxford. duke university professor laura sat down with booktv to discuss the book learning to love form 1040. the professor looks at the history of the federal income tax and discusses why paying taxes once viewed as a matter of civic duty is now viewed in the negative terms. this interview from the college series starts now. >> border and is now joining us on booktv from the duke university. what do you teach here? >> i teach text related courses cut federal income tax, corporate tax, tax seminar. the tax seminar. after the duke law school? >> yes. >> you have written a recent book and the title is learning to love 1040.

the cheers for the return based income tax. a lot of people are going to look at the cover of this book and say what? [laughter] >> i'm sure they will. welcome if it was easy to love 1040 you wouldn't need a book about how to love it. the basic argument of the book is that although there is a lot of reasons to be frustrated with the 1040 and the fact that the vast majority of the population of the united states has to file income tax returns every year, there is also some underappreciated virtues. >> first of all where did the 1040 come from and why do we call it the 1040? >> that is a great question and i don't actually know the answer. the irs has already had an elaborate number of systems for all of its forms but help this happen to be 1040 come and there is another book.

>> when did it come into creation? >> it sort of depends on how you count. the federal income tax was instituted in 1913. the 16th amendment made it possible. and then just a few months after the 16th amendment was ratified by the congress promptly enacted. but the first income tax applied only to the top 1% of the population. it expanded significantly in terms of how high the rates were during world war i, which kind of coincidentally came right on the heels of the first income tax, which initially had been kind of symbolic and became an important revenue. but all the way through the 20s and through the great depression the income tax remained a class tax rather than a massive tax area and in 1939 in world war ii, only 5% of

americans lived in households that were subject to the income tax. by the end of the war in 1975, it was about 75% area i'm sorry, 1945 it was 75%. >> 75% of americans were subject to income tax. and what happened of course is that the government needed a tremendous amount of money to finance the war. there was no way that could all be talking just from the top 5% of the population. everybody agreed that the tax was going to have to -- some federal tax was going to have to be imposed on the substantial authority of the population. it wasn't inevitable by any means that it would be an income tax. in fact, most of the nation's opinion leaders in the newspaper editorials and more importantly in the congress felt the way to go was with a federal retail sales tax. and it was only because the

roosevelt administration, for reasons i don't think making an awful lot of sense was imposed to a federal retail sales tax that we ended up with a nasa income tax instead. >> and we don't know why? >> i know why i just don't think that it makes a lot of sense. >> what was the reason why? >> because the president into the treasury secretary were firmly convinced that the sales taxes are regressive. and by contrast, they thought it was the income tax is progressive, and they wanted a progressive massive tax. the reason that did not make much sense is that while it is true that a sales tax in isolation is regressive, if you consider the combined distribution of the tax burden under an income tax that applies only to the top five or 10% of the population and the sales tax that applies for everyone else versus the mass income tax,

there is no reason to distributions had to be any different. so he was basically thinking of the sales tax in isolation rather than as a part of the system of the income tax. but anyway coming he won the day. the congress wasn't interested in forcing the sales tax over his opposition. and we've had an income tax through which the vast majority of the population has been subject ever since. >> by 1945, what system of deductions and credits were in place as opposed to today and? >> most of the things that we think of as the really classic deductions that individuals take on on their 1044 in place by the contribution that the deduction had been around almost since the beginning of the income tax. the medical expense deduction had been around for a while and there was a -- we didn't think of it as the home mortgage because it was a general deduction but there was a home

mortgage deduction and the deduction for the state and local taxes. they where they are already and they were there even before it became the tax. it was just only 10% of the population cared about it. more recently, the explosion in the tax breaks since the end of world war ii has been by the way of credits vin deductions so there is that thousand dollar per credit. there's the earned income tax credit which is tremendously important and was introduced in 1975. so, to oversimplify, most of the things that you think of as the deductions that you might take on your return have been around pretty much forever. the credit for the most part are newer. >> when you talk about the two cheers for the return of income tax bas base that is the return?

>> well, there's a lot of countries that have income tax systems that don't require people or at least don't require a lot of people to file a return. threturn. they work on the basis of what is called an exact withholding. if you think about the payroll tax it works that way.