he his book is timely. psychiatrist ask author is reading a short store collection in order to see war through the eyes of a soldier. book tv will cover an e'vette vent with phil clay. check our web site for air dates. ei collar and best selling author of the bell curve, charles murray, is reading, the sun also rises, senior names and the history of social mobile,it. and a quick look at what schools are reading. >> up next, duke university proffer talks bit his book, the honest truth about dishonesty. ...

>> during to learn from those students. >> host: what is behavioral economics? >> guest: the best way to contrast that we have the view of the human being to be perfectly rational you can look into the future to

digest information and always make the right decision. there is the assumption that you assume this is the case. as unassuming and puts people in this situation how they behave. we see how they behave from time to time. in then because of that we have different predictions of what we should do if you build a policy for rational people and why might people be obese? they will eat better saw your post calorie information in the people would realize there is stopped immediately. it turns out that is not the

case of tiny tiny changes but not real. if you think about the mistakes people make you will see about very different intervention not only the study of behavior but the human condition to be better off to get people to have a better life. >> host: what is your background your education? >> i have the be a frontality if in the master's hand ph.d. and another one in business so i and golf -- i have loyalty to go stand after that i

went somewhere else for 10 years then i came back and have been back here since then. is this a special feeling some of the professors are still here it is the wonderful feeling for me going to lew chapel hill which is also a wonderful. >> professor ariely has written two books the first one is completely irrational but his most recent is this one. "the (honest) truth about dishonesty" how we lie to everyone - especilly ourselves" how do you define dishonesty? >> there are lots of ways. but for the purpose of the experiment we give people a

a task we give them a sheets of paper and say go ahead you have five minutes to solve as many as you can and i will pay $1 per question. at the end of the five minutes please stop put your pencils down and count how many you got correct now take a sheet of paper go to the back of their room and a shred it. then come to the front and we will pay you. if they say six problems be paid $6 per cohousing but we played with the shredder it shreds the science but the main body is in tact so it vibrates handshakes you feel it is shredded but it is not. we can find out how many

questions they've really a user they said for but the switch is due to a ton of people in than to recall chicha a little bit. >> host: does everybody cheats? >> around 67% chief you could push it up or down but the people who don't teach her the same people of retired. in each experiment we don't know if it is the same people over and over the we have not been able to do with truck kinds of reasons but it is of the list of things to do. >> host: people hoochy to could justify?

>> the cheaters to do the cross benefits analysis the cost does not worry me but the people who don't care about morality we have a lot of little cheaters who could justify but what causes you to justify? fate of what would help you to justify something. what kinds of things would it help you? >> i will let me answer that question. [laughter] >> for example, other people. it is important to disable a

new look at the cost benefit analysis would do we stand to gain or to induce we don't find much evidence. wed reach change from $0.10 to $0.50 we don't see an increase of cheating there i influenced by the game in fact, if you think about it what causes to be honest or dishonest just one example every time i got to be to ask the waiter if i was the way into each year how would you recommend that i do that? most of the time they give me a good vice. they have suggestions then

how often is do they do that? some time as they get up to leave without paying or they call back. something about the restaurant is easy to cheat or escape now think about illegal down votes. they all to it's a and nobody cares. they don't think of it as a moral issue. if you walk out without paying you can say i forgot with the illegal don't know if you cannot say i did not pay attention. so what stops us from misbehaving that somebody served as we consume food we would feel like trovillion but it is not the cost benefit analysis but the

judge within the us. this is all about justification. everybody else. we do in experiment people get into a big room we have active students sitting in the front row and tuesday excuse me i sold everything. you have no doubt this person is cheating. take the money and go. of what happened to other people in the room? you can have two theories may be because other people realize there is no downside consequence. nothing happens. the second possibility is

everybody else how do we test it? everybody was said carnegie-mellon student in the second version think of the group of students in he is the one who is cheating from the cost-benefit analysis you still learn you can't cheat and get away with it. but this is something people like people we don't like so much. what happens now? what to refine in exceptional with a group that is what leads into this. a funny experiment by own a

vending machine. i wrote on the outside $0.75 per campbell on the inside i set it up to be zero. you press the button and get the money back. how many do they take? to they stop after one? or more? >> host: what is the answer? >> a lot of people took three or four. nobody took more than four but that was sensible. >> nominee people called? zero. nobody called. and they said it is cost

relative i just restore my karma. yet ising that is curious they call a friend to partaken as well. not just me but to other people are doing it. it you think about a like this. to look in the mirror to feel good. you could do one or the other. either you do good or cheat. to justify we could do both. but as long as we cheat just a little bit here is another way to think about it. this is a very nice hotel at

a golf club talking about experiments so we have struggled players when dash the gulf players if your ball fell in the rough and you really, really wished it was still left would you pick it up and move it 4 inches? people said heaven forbid. that is not what golfing is about just by asking the question is uproots you do not know the game. what about kicking it? no problem. the easiest is when you are not looking if you look up and then kick it is the easiest. if you would pick something and move it just the little

bit you thank you could have gone there. that god plays a role it turns out to be incredibly curious and there is a joke little johnny comes off from school that says he took a pencil of the kid sitting next to him and his father is furious and you never steel and a pencil if you made a pencil just mention or ask i can bring you dozens.

>> than taking it from the petty cash box or if they go to buy a pencil so the experiment people to the saving math problems then they said i solve the problem or give me the tokens. they walked to the side if you look at somebody in the eyes that would become very quickly. and all presidents with the plastic. this is one of the most worrisome because as a society we're getting away from money.

dealing with over great distances people could misbehave that means we'd be to be very careful. and we might not have to be as careful about morality but we need to be much more careful. >> host: your book was blurb on the back with the encapsulation the easygoing climate of the page. to reach sheikh to more now than we did 1500 years ago? if think we do. we live in a different world

with more distance. with to interact directly with the derivative markets i think the second thing is there are more great skills and i think a lot of once a year i meet with the undergrads the things that bother them so they're all clients of new things. but it is like 15 cups of coffee. but the german companies are making it so easy. what about the morality?

we'll have some focusing problems. if your friend is exaggerate or what about mckee pds? you can change the value is a strange world. there are a lot of things like that but it is much more nuanced. of dishonesty is much more in the press in the media and recreates situation everybody else has us cents to a higher degree if you think about athletes taking drugs but you might as well do that. is more common because of

that moral fiber almost all young people that i know think it is legal line sure you don't because you don't know how but also your friend is not from the community. a domain of life the fact they become more distant we know more about cheating in think it is prevalent with new domains of life. like the stock market. we have amazing when digital products this is what nobody understands to be david weis

we did not have 50 years ago. we're going in the wrong direction the slippery slope going down. the deterioration that we have to pay for. >> host: the jocasta you tell if a politician is lying? the lips are moving. >> guest: yes. with politicians we did us study of one of the places was washington d.c. with the congressional staffers and where the bankers hang out who is said to bankers are politicians?

but it to details of caution the bankers day-to-day with room for growth. >> host: what was that experiment? we go to a bar we actually change the pavement a little bit with the establishment. >> ventures with the irs. these results is what do we feel comfortable? it is not about punishment.

it is an automatic negative consequence but it is just unbelievably stupid thing to do to be penalized. we don't think about the consequences of our actions. at the moment what do you think is okay? what we found out is when people think about their own morality to ask them to recite or the code of conduct that stays with you for a while in you become so with the irs you sign first.

but then the cheating is over. it is done and then fix everything i need to fix. we propose people's mind up front everything is the church's. it is so natural to think this way. you finish the testimony will they say swear everything so far is the trees. of course, not. with the old traditions re-enter stands wearing of the bible is about preparing yourself to you tell the truth but in the recent tradition we forgot that lesson so people sign at the end we need to do it at the beginning that the i.r.a. says you cannot do a trick is verification news crucial. so let them send and -- signed twice at the beginning and at the end.

then they said that is confusing but if you have seen the irs forms that they you have to worry about. how to increase morality? we would ask you if you want to donate to a task force think about your own morality. but the irs to not do any experiments with us for obvious reasons of a difficult organization they have complexity's to you deal with. but we did it with an insurance company. people say please give us the you odometer reading.

because then the premium goes down. we gave this form to 10,000 people and we got them to sign first. the people who signed first or driving 2400 miles more so this suggests when you invoke people's mind set in a more honest way a high degree of honesty will follow. matter what you think it is not easy to change the moral fiber but what we can do is get them to be more honest for two hours when they do their taxes is or if they're professionals to be honest but said the we don't do enough of those interventions.

>> host: win a deity is invoked as the increase on the state? >> yes. in multiple ways. that when people think about religion in particular it does bring fox about morality. we happened to people in california none of the recalled all 10 commandments but after it was not about believing in god or the people who remembered more or less but thinking about morality caused people to behave better. moral sinking is an issue. -- thinking is an issue.

it helps to create rule. what we don't do well in is the gray zone we digress not because we are bad people but because we are people. how you see things it is more comfortable to see if it does this way. if the referee calls against your team you cannot help but think something like that. it is not a bad person but you want to see the world in that regard. the gravestones don't play well with cognitive about one dash ability because we cannot support ourselves. with religion with forgiveness have some experiments we give them a lot of chances to sheikh to

they do as little bit to feel a good but at some point some people switch. we call it the of what the hell effected if you view yourself as a good bad you could read 92 percent could but if you were 73 percent could is a worthwhile? no. go all the way. if you are on a diet the yeats the muffin i might as well enjoy it. i have been bad today. so we thought if you have the what the hell effect what could you do? there is a lot of reasons for catholic confession that you think up front for gore will go to the gas station and may get caught by the

police said the priest will tell me to do 100 hail mary. but he increases the cost of the crime. we tried this with no explanatory power. and other conventions nes people are better. but we got people to the of lab and they cheated a lot then we give them the chance to confess. their boat things down recently that they regret to for a real. then another sheet to say to whatever deity they believed. what happened after? if this for me is a lesson the religion understands to

open new page is is important to. of you don't allow people then why would you start fresh? why would you be a full? however to reject more open? one example is the truth and reconciliation act how do you move from apartheid? so all of the things we have done it does 90 race apartheid but it does create similarly the dutch painters the netherlands the new regulations of honesty for the bankers with the same idea here is what we promised some of this is an

interesting and promising direction to get lessons from religion but also of uh to implement what could help -- topos to behave better. one other thing about cheating those holes saying is about conflict of interest that people can do it to injury have a tendency to look at people who'd cheeked. here is a personal story. i was in the hospital about three years and four or five years after i come back for a checkup the head of the

burn department says a have a fantastic treatment. and explains when i shave i have black dots of the right side i have no stubble if he wants to fix it with the right side of my face i will be symmetrical. go home coming shave income back tomorrow. i drive home in des think what level of share of the morning or the afternoon shadow? i come back the next day and say can i looked at pictures of other people? they look perfectly reasonable. what happens when they grow older and my hair becomes white? we will laser. i don't think i want this.

then he looks at me what is wrong with you? >> guest: enjoy looking asymmetrical to get pleasure from looking different? he was my doctor for three years, he did any operations i did not do everything but this is the first time he tried to give me a guilt trip. i've left his office his deputies said they had done it for two patients in needed a third for the academic paper and i was a good candidate. it is easy to say it was a bad decision but one dash positioned he was wonderful. this half of the highbrow i've lost it. it was burned and they wanted to fix it. i could care less there were so many things half of the eyebrow did that bother me

but he insisted upon a said the next operation do it at the same time. i went for the hand operation but that took too much space so he had to wait to for nine hours you would think it is an easy operation? no. if you just plant period it will die so he took the lead doppler machine and track to the blood vessels to isolate one that leads to into i've let to reach iraq to to put it has an eyebrow. complex operation into a kim eight hours. he spent all day waiting for the operation to be our then most of the night to give me half of an eyebrow because he cared about a century and about me.

he suddenly died three years ago and i can think of him in anything but the most positive but nevertheless at that moment he wanted the paper out. this is an important lesson because it is not bad people but just people. the moment we have the conflicts of interest bad behavior can happen. look at wall street. to said they're bad people land just replace them? no. this is a system but if you'd take away all the things they rationalize they all show up in wall street. everybody else is doing it, of money, positive economic theory, rationality's so brady to think differently about the system we have

created. we have a rational tendencies' if we build the system into account we will be better off and relax more failures. >> host: we have been talking with professor dan ariely. his most recent book "the (honest) truth about dishonesty" how we lie to everyone - especilly ourselves." >> guest: my pleasure