>> power rangers and univision, a lot of money, and, you know, when he has a conference and people like president obama, hillary clinton, and clintons show up, that's about politics. when the republican-jewish committee has a conference, that's about money. all right. >> how much money does he give? it's all about money. how much money, ana, does he give? >> he's been -- he gives many millions of dollars. >> does it ever go into the tens of millions or hundreds of millions of dollars? >> it probably is in the tens of millions of dollars. >> lifetime? not in a cycle, though. no one compared to sheldon-adelson. >> he had no one to give to last time. he's a hillary clinton person, not a president obama person. >> this could go on for a long time, and i want the other panels a chance to comment. [laughter] >> they turned their microphones off. >> well, turn them back on. ..

the candidates do go to them for money and i don't think there's anything wrong with that. that's presidential races are expensive and candidates on both sides so let's not pretend here that my candidate, they'll do it. i just wanted to touch on two things. i talked about this a little bit before because they are starting to co-opt many the messages regarding hillary clinton, this is a phenomenal acstat is receiving right now. if she does not run for president that democrats are going to be in a freefall for a while and it will be very

interestiinteresti ng to see on that side of the aisle what happens. thank you. >> let's go to our questions. are you a student? >> then go ahead sir. >> thank you. >> occurs to me ironic chief justice powers is an i-84 the peoples democracy. >> do you have a question? >> the question is do you see it as an improvised explosive device dynamiting democracy? >> he is sorted and a jumper life. he speaks as a comptroller for the rest of the justice of the supreme court and i'm very glad

that chief justice, justice ginsburg is an opponent. does that undermine the democracy he is supposed to be being? >> i can address the question head-on but if you really want to camp ain't finance reform how about this for an idea? you allow anybody to donate as much money as they want to any candidate they want but you do it transparently. in 24 hours it needs to be low on line somebody can see. that's the longest 30-second commercial you will ever see. how's that? >> unfortunately sounds great or an applause line but it's

inadequate in an era where you have independent expenditures for the money doesn't go to candidates and that is allowed in private and more that money is in the process in the money to go strictly to candidatecandidate s. >> you are absolute correct. as a matter of fact when campaign finance reform first became an issue molly ivins who was still alive and here debated that very issue. as a matter fact i was recently subpoenaed by the commission of new york for not divulging who the donors were to one of these organizations. that said i have to agree i would preferred to see a world in which they do not exist but then allow people to donate as much as they want to the parties and to the candidates and make that totally transparent, put it on line and as i said before it

will tell you more about the candidate than anything else. thank you. speak to you have a question? >> first a live look of the political scene and i'm reminded of richard hofstadter anti-intellectualism in american life. a -- you spoke of gene gene janine is a powerful woman in politics. are you equally enthused about governor nicky haley and governor jan brewer? >> no. [laughter] >> good afternoon. >> of course not. >> why? [laughter] >> wow. well for different reasons i think. one, i simply disagree with the priorities that they have, on which they have run their states

so it's pretty fundamental. my feminism is very broad and it is not without an underpinning of clear values and priorities so i can say that ana i love what she does on "meet the press" because it's good for all women that she is as capable as she is but i also enjoy from my couch disagreeing with her and that's the way i feel about those two people. >> i actually agree with her because i think the end of sexism and the definition of modern feminism is having the freedom to choose based on qualifications, based on character ,-com,-com ma based on experience and based on the person not based on gender not based on race and not based on those issues. [applause] that is what we have made progress on and broken the ceiling when there's freedom to choose.

>> over here. young man men are you a student? you step up then. you get to go first. sorry. [laughter] we are not going to go away without you getting to ask a question. go ahead. >> first off i just want to say thank you to all the panelists. it's always good to hear a nice debate. as one who is canvassed on local issues and registered voters i am always struck by the disillusionment as well as the frustration of young voters and the millennial generation on the federal government so going forward looking into your crystal ball how do you see young voters play into the political atmosphere and do you look on this in a variety different ways such as if there's a shift of focus from the federal government to seeing progress at the local and state governments as well as the

increasing price of education and then if you have graduates educated versus a number who haven't gone to college. i think you can look at these issues in a few different ways so i'm interested to hear what you have to say on this. >> can i come back with a question to you? if i may did you vote in the last presidentpresident ial election? >> i did. >> and you don't have to answer, did you support the president? >> i did at that point. >> as we know so many young voters played a part in helping to elect barack obama in 2008 and reelect him in 2012 and you are now 2012. you are not dismayed with the president? >> in the past two or three years i have definitely become much more aware of political issues in general through my work with political organizatorganizat ion so i would say at that point that i

wasn't a completely educated voter. as you know many voters can be sweet -- suede rather easily with a couple of sentences for something that they like so that plays into it as well. speak to this point and i think to answer your question the degree to which millennials are going to be involved in the process going forward in the turnout you saw the drop off in 2010 from 2008 among young voters. that explains in great measure not entirely but certainly significantly why republicans did so well in the last midterm. voters simply did not come out when the president was not at the top of the ticket. a lot of young voters also who supported the president are also incredibly disappointed that the world has not changed dramatically because he was president. and i share their pain and in the words of your friend bill clinton i feel their pain because i too thought we would

have a transformational shifts to barack obama. i really believed it was possible. and the problem we have got is that happens incrementally in the system and if young people are expecting that from one round of elections or one candidate they will inevitably just -- be disappointed and that's both a problem and a challenge for people to say okay we have to be in this for the long-haul and to his credit the president from day one as a candidate in 2007 said this is not about me, it's about you. i cannot do this. we have to do this together. yes we can, not yes i can and that will be the question. will millennials adopt that view, we have to do this ourselves? i don't know. >> you know i can't fall to millennials or any age group for

being disappointed, disillusioned and dismayed. the dysfunction going on in washington d.c. is depressing i think for everybody. you have got a congress that can't work with each other. you have got a president that can't work with congress and the bottom line is that very little that affects our lives in a positive way is being done and the american people perceive that. i think it's felt even more by people of your age group ,-com,-com ma not to mention the unemployment of people in your age group. when you voted two years ago you probably had two more years of college left and now you're getting closer to needing a job. i would be at dismayed voter too. >> as a republican i would love to say that old saying you know too beyond

that it's creating, it's creating productivity in the marketplace for people. so a lot of people are being displaced and this is not going to be a solution that we are going to have a solution for immediately and it's going to make it so the pendulum is going to go back and forth. we will blame republicans just as much as we blame democrats. i see the frustration you're going through is going to be similar no matter who's in office until this shakes out. the guiding hope here is that somebody like jeff bezos or one of these brilliant entrepreneurial minds lines a way to make technology work for the less skilled person so i less skilled person using technology can have a higher skill position and you can

create jobs in that way. to look at washington to blame obama entirely for this, to think that a tax fixes the panacea, it's not in these are difficult challenges for washington. it's going to be difficult to see how either party looks to solve these. >> overhear sir. >> i just want to say one thing about the generational look at this. first of all the tip of the midterm elections in 2010 were as much a result of the failure of unmarried women who had voted at an extraordinarily high rate in 2008 so your generation and the generation that is of college age tends not to vote in midterm elections sowed activism is a function of community and

when you are mobile, and this is the danger in the comment over here, when we are unconnected to each other our activism is diffuse and we can't do much as a society. but the thing that is on you while to figure out is how you will integrate the communal aspects of activism or one person has a conversation with another about what's best for the community or the country and not dismiss it with your on line attachment because the disconnection that comes with on line, faux activism of on line, signing petitions on line, that won't do. that won't do. >> thank you. [applause] sees sir. >> i have a short statement. >> please go to a question. we are running out of time.

>> i the question that i would like david to answer and it's a question daniel about your comment about americans have fear. americans are scared of this and americans are scared of that. where did that fear come from? who is stoking that fear? i have an idea and it's coming from one side of the political spectrum. no, i don't believe it's coming from both sides. >> you have asked your question. david go ahead. >> koch. >> check. okay. it's coming from a grassroots movement. people whether they're they are republicans or democrats have felt the pain of not having a job, not getting rehired after the election. this is not something -- certain candidates make hay of it because they think they have a solution and that's fair.

if i believe i have a solution and my jobs program for my tax plan is going to solve that i have every right to speak about that. regardless of what side of the aisle. so i don't, i don't subscribe to the fact that this is being stoked by a party. this is a problem that we are seeing a respected of socio- demographics. it's the very top of the socioeconomic scale. they are not really feeling this but most other people are. >> please. >> in fact i agree that the fear is real. there is no question about it. people are afraid. they were afraid during the cold war. the bombs were about to drop. fear has always been good politics. not necessarily good democracy but good politics but that fear is in fact being coked by

americans for prosperity. come on, it's shameless. americans for prosperity from two people whose combined wealth is $80 billion, they're not sending checks out. they are writing checks to consultants exactly and they are spending a fortune to impact the electoral outcome which benefits their bottom line. it's not creating more jobs except for consultants and in fact the fear that people have over the loss of jobs is real but it is being inflamed and used as a political weapon, as a tool and it is shameful. if these people had any shame, and they don't because as you saw one of the koch brothers wrote an editorial saying he resented being attacked for what he is doing. "the wall street journal" last

week, the poor man. he resents being attacked. well he better be willing to be attacked for doing what he has done and continues to do because he has put his name out there, he and his brother and if they are doing what they are doing they had better be able to take the heat because they deserve it. [applause] >> my question is specifically for ms. hughes and you have touched on it a little bit. anyone feel free to share. you mentioned the renaissance of winning governors in new england over the last couple of years later in the gubernatorial race rick perry has decided not to run again in the democratic hardy is running a big push to turn the state into a battleground state, essentially a purple state. their nominee for the executive spot is windy davis. what you believe are her chances in a democratic state where her

party has not won this state wide election in several cycles but also women in texas and do you all think this will be a successful movement by the parties? >> her chances are zero. >> you could happen. [laughter] >> i actually think that wendy has a shot. it's definitely uphill and i understand where ana is coming from. she has already demonstrated that she's an extraordinary person and i think that the evaluation that we would make because we are political is that whoa we haven't elected any democrat statewide in texas in a long time i think but it is a state that it braced anne richards. it's a state that is constantly changing and its electorate is changing and i think there is a movement which is different than

the gubernatorial campaign and the movement is what is important and what will either help wendy make that case enough to get over or build something that will help in the future. but i think there's a a shop but there's no doubt it's very tough. i would say we will have to see how much that movement carries. >> it is changing and it's going to change in the near future, and the next four to six year statewide democrats will be elected in texas again. i promise you that. >> all right let's see if we can get the last two folks with questions so if you can ask a quick question and directed if you will to panel members. >> my question is washington has become so hateful and it's trickling down into our society.

when in the crystal ball will you see the democrats and the republicans begin to work together so that we can fix america and we can have these types of intelligent debates without criticizing and demeaning each other? [laughter] >> who wants to start? >> politics is a pendulum and i think we are on the far edge of uncivil discourse right now in politics and i am an optimist. i do think the pendulum will swing back. it will be frankly when voters start demanding it and what i tell people is you now get out of your comfort zone. don't just listen to people and speak to people and read people

who think just like you. it's okay, you can have a republican friend. you can have a democrat friend. i tell all my friends you want to get this issue moved, gopher friend and old white straight male. show them it's not contagious. they will be fine. so i think that we all have to do our part to getting out of our comfort zone, engaging with people different from us celebrate diversity of thought and demanded from our elected officials. >> we are accused of recruiting when we do that and that's always the problem. but to that point i associate myself completely with what ana says. we have reached a low point. we can't go any lower than 5% approval from congress. that is from both parties. most democrats and republicans and by the way this red devil was not my feeling about republicans. this is a symbol for a friend good thing it was a conference participant. i don't think republicans are

demons. i don't think that conservatives are inherently the enemy but i will tell you that was a strategy. it was put into place by my good friends former client newt gingrich when he came to the house of representatives because he used language and he said language is going to define us. he said when we take back the house in order to do this we can't just defeat democrats. we have to destroy them and it changed the tone. newt gingrich revolution set the bar, lowered the bar for the discourse and the level of disability we see right now whether he's willing to accept responsibility. he was tactically smart he could save polarize things and it took entrenched minority and turned it upside down and the

republicans did win. the problem with the politics are polarization and demonization is they often work and that is why it's hard to say there's going to be an end anytime soon because voters are not outraged by it. >> you nixon was the one who started that with the southern strategy. but just to say when this is going to end the voters need to feel a little bit better about themselves and right now we do a lot of pulling and we see this. this is a trendline that i see and i don't need to hammer this over and over but as long as we feel threatened ,-com,-com ma voters are going to be argumentative as to how to solve it and want to protect their base. i agree with ana part of this comes from the voters. the other thing that troubles me when i first got to washington in the late 80s republicans and democrats used to bite each

other drinks at the barnacle. today that is so infrequent and one of the factors you see is a lot of congressman are almost ashamed to say i live for time in washington. but there is a factor that really worked when they did. the whole lucre concept. back then they work together. do you know why? they hung out together in washingtwashingt on. the kids went to school together. they had a social connection. there was a social fabric there that today i take my family back to the district and i sleep in my office. you don't have that personal touch to reach across the aisle and say hey we are in this together, let's talk. >> i have to make one quick comment. when you leave the room please exit by the right door here. there's a crowd of people coming in for the next session and quickly i want to make sure you

get your question asked. you can check in. >> my question is best addressed by and ms. navarro. i watched all the republicans base and .12 and almost entirely for the entertainment value. in 2016 republicans allow a panel that will be that entertaining or is there some method to screen out the fringe candidates? >> you know, we live in a country where the constitution allows anybody who is a natural-born citizen and over 35 to run. so it's not going to be about who we lead out. it's can they run? yes. will they have the resources to be able to sustain it for a while? that's the question. the rnc has made an effort and

is making an effort to try to bring some sanity to the debate process. we shall see if it succeeds. last comment from mary. >> to dan's point there is an example in washington of a group of legislators who do exactly what he has described and they are the 20 women in the united states senate. [applause] and we have legislation in this country, a budget. we have protections for personal safety because they work together. so without holding you it's a lovely note to end on. >> lets thank our wonderful panel. [applause] [inaudible conversations]

next u.s. historian and new york university professor greg grandin recounts the story of an 1805 slave revolt aboard a ship off the coast of south america. his book is "the empire of necessity" slavery, freedom and deception in the new world. he spoke at the new public library. [applause] >> thank you. thank you for the coleman center which is a wonderful institution and also gave me an advance look at this great look. it is a great book.

it was a thrill to be asked to do this with great tonight. i come at it as a o historian. i come at it as a reader of theo book butf also as a leader of melville and it seems well fitting that we should be meeting in the new york public library to talk about i think or ambiguously the greatest new yorker who ever lived, melville. and to talk also about the much larger story that he was expanding upon in it. greg asked me to do the honors at the outset in laying out the story which i'm sure many of you are familiar with and may not have read recently. and so i thought i would do that and i remember seeing a document and he played doc every day.

he said i always play a little bach in the morning. it's like a benediction on the house. i think reading a little melville will allow that too read it's the story of the american sea captain macedon of who fesses up on the ceiling ship at the end of a long expedition. the ceiling is running out. that is to say they are running out of seals to kill and greg will talk about ceiling. he is off the coast of where exactly? >> the coast of chile. >> he sees this derelict looking ship in a cove and approaches it this appears in his memoirs the story. melville took the story from dell and those memoir and he expanded upon it in his own way. basically the story is that he went aboard ship.

he saw the ship that looked in trouble. he was aware that it could be a trick and maybe it was a ship that was -- a pirate ship or some sort of ship that would try to ambush him at the side of the road as it were. he went there and thought he brought pumpkins and a good catch of fish. he was a proper new england yankee. he went there and went on board and thought what he was seeing was a ship which had run into all kinds of trouble and where the slaves, the slave trading ship he saw that right away. what he didn't realize from the outset was this was the ship that was in the slave rebellion in the slaves had risen up and killed a great deal -- a slave trader and a lot of the white people on board and returned whence they come which was west africa and senegal. they were asking to go back in the gulf of bonnie off of

nigeria. they wanted to go back to africa and this ended up in a standoff. when they saw this captain delano approaching they created a masquerade and in this masquerade they pretended -- the slaves were now in control of the ship and the captain was their prisoner. they pretended that it was still the other way around and they propped up this fading man who was their prisoner and played the servile slave attending to him. but also controlled and the whole time dylan was on board he imagined the slave was wonderfully attentive and being served by such a person. he thought this is just such a fine relationship and look how careful he is and everything was

a mess that he slightly picked up. future bid it to the idea that maybe this was an ambush after all and maybe he was a sinister guy after all. it's only in the late stage of the drama of a the long day aboard that ship. i thought i would give you a sense of how melville approaches this. he describes the ship 1799 of roxbury massachusetts. the morning was one peculiar to that coast. everything was mute and calm, everything gray. this undulated along the rooms of swells seemed fixed by quave led. this guy seemed gray. flights have troubled gray foul gray vapors among which they were mixed as wallows over meadows before storms, shadows present foreshadowing deeper

shadows to come. he made it very easy for english professors in future years. [laughter] considering the lawlessness and the lameness of the spot associated with those scenes captain delano surprised with somewhat uneasiness. had he not in a person of a cigarette and a stressful good nature not liable except repeated incentives and hardly then to indulge in personal warms in any way involving the amputation of a maligned man. in view of what humanity is capable such a. implies along with a benevolent heart more than accuracy of intellectual perceptions may be left to the wise to determine. so he sets it up very much as delano's sunny view of humanity blinding him to the reality of the slave rebellion of what's

going on and that throughout the book that runs as a theme. i will go now and leap towards the very end where having found that what happened and he saves the need those in this extraordinary exchange where he is with bonito and he is sort of saying you saved my life but really captain delano said that you saved mine because imagine it had all gone awry. imagine he had been more suspicious and acted accordingly why the slaves could have had my head in the second and would have killed me like that so by maintaining the deception you saved my life just as much as i ultimately saved yours. and they are in the boat and don benito is not persuaded by this. he said you generalized on bonito but forget it.

he has forgotten it all in the lucy in the blue sky. they have turned over new leaves. because they have no memory he replied. because they are not human. do they not come with a humanlike healing to you? steadfast friends of the. with their steadfastness mike toombs señor was before boarding response. you are saved cried captain delano. you are saved. what is casting a shadow upon you? some of you may be familiar with that passage as the epigraph to ralph ellison. it's an extraordinary story. melville towards the end of also in his odd way disappears and hands the narrative over to these fictional depositions and

which bonito serino tells his whole story in legal documents translated from some court. how did you get into this? you ended up reading the real documents. this is the real story. how did you expand upon it? >> well there really wasn't a masa bella. i came to the story when i was teaching in class in u.s. latin american history and a friend of mine who was in the audience corey robin suggested i signed the novel. i hadn't met him before and i read it and he signed it. as you convey its gothic on the high seas. it's almost as if the sea captain was lost in and captured by the brontë system. and it takes place all through

the world through the perspective of a masa dell and. readers don't know what it reveals. he is preparing to teach the class and i was reading around. turns out whether he scholars have known that it's based on chapter 18 of the memoirs. this is not a new thing. it's actually true story. >> itself fairly popular sea captain's account. >> wasn't that popular but it was out there. the memoirs are easily available and there was just something, i remember when i read it. the true story based on the footnote it kind of analysis and interpretation of writing. i had to read the footnote a few times. it was kind of like finding out

that the movie million was true. it was kind of the same structure. and then thanks to the wonders of google books you can read or download the masa dalan and the pdf of the memoir. it's 500 something pages. chapter 18 is fascinating. the whole memoir itself is just almost, it's one misadventure after another. it captures something about the early promise of the american revolution. melville's portrayal is a wonderful first fully rented broad forebear of the quiet

american and everything in between. it's superficial but in a superficial way that has depth in residence and says something about the innocence of the united states. the actual real says something even more. he captures something much more profound about the american experience. and his reaction which we can get to later on in the discussion is rooted much more in social rather than economics rather than the kind of linus and cheering is associated with it. so the book that i want up writing basically has to narrative lines one that follows the west africans who staged this remarkable deception and the other narrative line follows masa dalan into the pacific as a

sealer and their encounter in the south pacific. >> lets talk about that for a second because the story is an amazing story. greg has reconstructed it with this shipment of slaves but constantly to give you a sense of the immensity of this trade at the time and to make you understand how much this age of freedom was related to slavery and how much everything was linked to the epidemiology that gets in there. everything gets in there in terms of how the world is reacting to the slaves. they are british, a slave on a british ship that gets picked up by a private -- who is on a contract to offload them to america and this standard operating procedure.

>> i don't speak french but believe it or not he had one arm. i never realized how much i wanted to start a book about a one-armed pirates but i actually did. but yeah he was in the french revolution and understood him as a seafaring gentleman. we have this perception of him being proto-amicus but at least in the case of latin america they were vanguards and seized british goods because the french were protecting ongoing internal war with the british. and brought them in contractual relations with south america and brought the seized goods into buenos aires and the cargo seas off of british ships were

slaves. at least one group of west africans that want up in the trial -- >> the trial being the actual vote? >> that was bringing the west africans from chile to lima, came in from the liverpool slaves on the way to the caribbean and diverted. >> talk a little bit about -- some what aware but not as much as we should be what our country is built on ,-com,-com ma the slave. in the united states and how that worked a little bit. the extent to which it was a huge part of latin america the whole southern hemisphere is probably something you are really expanding on for many people for the first time and is at the core of this book. it was as big a deal they're both economically in terms of trade and in terms of what the

slaves. >> so one of the things the event allows us in opening up of just the extent and fold panorama of the americas where people in the u.s. and students of u.s. history tend to treat u.s. slavery has its own thing. that was really the last stage of this larger expansion throughout the americas to the expansion of free-trade and links to the atlantic ocean revolution that began in the caribbean in 1770 with brazil and south america and then it wasn't until after the cotton gin and the move into the mississippi valley and then west and after the war of 1812 it explodes in the united states. one of the things the story does is not only does it give you a sense of the spatial scope of slavery by tracking the west africans into monta le bail and

into the pacific but also it's in some sense a chronological -- masa dello leads in 1805, 1803 i'm sorry in the ceiling expedition and slavery is by now dying out in greenland and soon to die out in the south. and it's in full swing and south america. 1804 was the height of what the spaniards called free. and blacks. it was the deregulation of the mercantile system. more slaves came in 1812 than in any year previously. many of them came in as contraband. >> that is also fascinating. you have this pirate picking him up and bringing him they there presumably because it's a slightly goofy deal and then he

can't get them off the ship and they have to march across the entire continent of the pacific coast which is an incredible odyssey also because these are not set up deals. in other words it's not exactly clear what's going to happen. >> right, there was. >> the cruelty of it read. >> it was a complex process and even though there were political considerations the viceroy allowed some to be sold as commodities so there were all sorts of schemes in order to convert the commodity. to go back into this chronological what mascarello was doing was he is encountering in the south pacific this race terror and violence that will

later explode in the united states and that is the kind, it's almost circular and melville reads the story when slavery does explode in the united states. so there's an interesting circular chronology. >> also a glimpse of the future. >> right. >> what was the ceiling business all about? we are aware that melville was the great industrial novel is that he but he was the great novelist with the whales but what is with the seals? >> ceiling doesn't play a great part. masa dalan no was from a good yeoman stock family. he came from a family of

shipbuilders and fishermen and came of age during the american revolution and was born during the french indian war which set the stage for u.s. independence. he was in some ways a melville and character in the sense that the american revolution compatible to world history from the american revolution and which he ran away as a teenager, he went from one adventure to another. he could never quite redeem the promise that the revolution you know suggested. and he did for a little bit in the 1790s. it was the first u.s. experience with boom and bust extraction even more than failing. ceiling takes up the --

takes off in the 1970s. they are taking tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of skins. they perfected a technique in order to remove the fur from the hair and trading them mostly in continental china after spices and t. and bringing them back. in his first ceiling expedition he took hundreds of thousands of skins and was enormously successful. and for a while it seemed like he had managed to establish it. >> this is way down south. >> this is not islands off of chile. by the second, by a second expedition he sets out in 1803 the seals are disappearing. what is happening is the chinese market is flooded and the prices are floored.

the skins are riding in the rain and the prices plummeting. that leads to sealers accelerating the killing. so what you have is you have oversupplied and extinction go hand-in-hand on one island after another. during the flush years the cooperation among sealers there is money to be made. ceiling itself is about a system of labor relations and once the seals start disappearing the conflict started merging between sealing ships and dalan no on this trip by the time he crosses paths his own crew is mutiny. first you try sealing and missing when and australia and the seals are gone. >> this is how many years? >> this is 1803 and he's back in

1807. >> is that when the trial happens in 1805? his crew disappears and jumps ship in tasmania and he winds up taking on -- because he's desperate a bunch of escaped prisoners, convex and based on mutiny as he's heading towards chile. there is no money. they go from island to island and there are no seals left. he crosses paths with the trial and we can talk about the deception and his blindness to it and once he realizes that he is basically the victim of a con of this elaborate stage manipulation he rallies his men to put down the rebellion and retake the ship. that brings them together. what's interesting is if you

think of ahab is this kind of, becomes this avatar or embodies a certain kind of charismatic power he is often held up as a precursor to totalitarianism because he is able to, through the charisma and creating an emotional bond with his men in which they participate they think dalan no represents a much more modern form of power in the context of disappearing natural resources and this intersection with race terror. he rallies his men not to hunt the white whale but to suppress black rebels. so it provides a window and social understanding of race violence and slavery and environmentalism. >> i have lost my bookmark. throughout the book greg has

three sections called interludes which are wonderful adaptations of material and also melville mostly and this one is called the machinery of civilization. this is where you do the delano versus ahab comparison and looking at them as ultimately the character today the way we think of ahab synonymous with how we explain george bush's wars to global warming. a request for more and more resources but insurgents like ahab are not the primary drivers of destruction you write. you say those who would be the man who never dissent to carry out the grinding day in and day out extracting process.

you say in a different way he's the american who doesn't actually see the complexity of the drama he is in and you are saying he is an establishment figure in a deep way. he kind of represents and is also interesting that melville creates this diabolical ahab but he likes him. >> he sets them up for a fool prettied blatantly. not a stupid fool but a foolish person. >> not so much an establishment figure i don't think. but somebody is certainly believes in institutionalism and in his memoirs there are number of points. he believed in rights of property and he has an encounter with the french revolution in

the indian ocean. he has a clear understanding that institutionalism is important but you are going to have rights of man. you have to have strong institutions like property rights and he believes in obeying them as he explicitly says the number of times. he is the same time blind to the social world around him. there's a blindness that melville captures and melville seas at envy narrative and captures it. >> that the slave rebellion on the ship, we think of is is this extraordinary story but once melville got ahold of it was an unusual and something they would have made note of? was this pretty much something that went with the territory that happened a lot and you have some other stories of slave

revolts. take us back to africa and the fascinating diagnosis by these medical experts who are brought into analyze why the slaves were so unhappy but don't talk to them. they decide it's a schism of the soul. >> bolts on ship's were quite common. there are spews surveys that have counted 600 but i think that's just a fact. some of the west africans have been involved in two other slave ship revolts coming out of montello léo before they get to the pacific. >> they survive them before. >> there was and sent but my point was none of them are documented accounts of slave shippers bolts. i think it was quite common.

i think what is remarkable about this one is i mean the west africans had been through probably a year and a half before they even got to the south pacific. then they rise up and they seize the ship. they are sailing up and down the coast of chile and peru for 53 days before they are out of food and water. they survived one horrible storm. two women died of dehydration and two children died of dehydration. they have a skeleton crew of spaniards. but think about that context. they are dehydrated and they are starving and they are literally dying. and yet they come up -- they managed to summon the

reserves and resources in order to perform, to shed the trappings which proved to be fragile because they are slipping away every day in the south pacific and assume the role of slavery in order to fool moseldalen. who knows why melville, what attracted him to the story but one of the things certainly has to be the way that these west africans were able to use the things that they were said not to possess cunning and reason and any kind of internal control things usually associated to free men in order to prove the things they were said to be, humble and as fawning and

simpleminded. what's fascinating about bonito serino and the true events also is to compare it to. teachers though's uncle tom's cabin where emancipation presents african slaves and african-american slaves as simpleminded as being somehow more pure christians in their transparency in motives. >> moseldalen proceeds. >> right, proceeds. they respond to the mentality that's inflicted on them with equal were taliban violence. >> one of the last lines is some months after -- he almost never says a word and

he never talks about anything and won't respond to any aspect. some months after he comes to his voice was thin. the body was burnt to ashes and for many days the head the hive of subtlety fixed meant unabashed the gaze of the whites. it's not really being subtle here. you think of the slave oddities. not to only dwell on the melville site but how was that red at the time? >> it wasn't. >> undersold "moby dick". >> it was published 40 years after "moby dick" and "moby dick" was it commercial failure and disaster. this was the moment biographers identified him as a point of the

emotional and physical exhaustion. he published it in putnam's monthly journal came out in three segments in december of 1855. there were notices of it in the time. reading it as a creeping horror but it went quickly and too obscure de. >> when you went about reconstructing and in this mind-blowing footnote 1 you went all over the map that the story covers. what i find amazing is how

intensely documented all of this is. it all the captains were writing correspondence describing the crude calculations of protecting slaves and trading them off. all of that is on paper and preserved. how were you able to reconstruct this exact shipment on its unbelievable odyssey across the ocean and up over the mountains through the andes? >> doing this kind of archival research, when you're trying to reconstruct it at least provides some kind of structure and organizing structure that moves you along. if one were to go out and write a history of slavery and freedom in the americas that's -- but if one is trying to follow the itinerary the protocol records in latin america are kind of in some ways the hidden

history of capitalism with documents and transactions in sales of slaves. that was helpful and the court case in chile and in spain because melville makes the one nature change coming back to the question of sources and researched one major change that melville does is he has moseldalen trying to convert a broke and serino and in reality moseldalen spends eight months trying to get half of the work this surviving slaves in order to maintain loyalty and his crew. they have this falling out and dull and no basically pursues it from concepcion tuscon ta go to lima. those court cases are gone so

there is that legal proceeding of moseldalen dealing with spanish authorities and make in these demands and claims. there is a lot of work related to that. i was only able to document one group as west africans. the west africans staged this deception. they don't become a consignment as such until they are sold to this provincial falling aristocrat who gets into slavery in order to stem his position. that is when they become the 70 west africans. prior to that they are coming through in many different ways. i was only able to identify one stream.

>> still it's quite amazing. >> again it was 1804 and probably more than half of enslaved people for contra brand brand -- contraband and undocumented. >> so you have all of this documentation. what do you make in the end of the original story? is said as much at of a microcosmic story without serino in the novel? >> i think well again the moment that happens, 1804 is a generation after the american revolution and the generation before the spanish american revolution the year that haiti declares itself independent. it really is the apex of the

heart of the age of revolution the age of liberty and it's the convulsing moment of free. and blacks and the liberalization of the slave system and everything that came with it, spanish america and the way it intersects as sealing and this boom and bust extraction and u.s. expansion so even melville turned it into this compelling novella and itself it's a fascinating story. >> you found most of the slaves were muslims. >> they were identified as guests the leaders were identified as muslim by spaniards. there were number of other incidental evidence that suggest they followed and tracked the islamic calendar.

they started their ascent up the andy's at the beginning of ramadan or ramadan started when they were a few days into that absent and they staged their uprising on the holiest day of ramadan. they knew how to read and write in their own language. they forced bonito to sign a contract all indications that at least the leadership was and they were identified as moore's. there was a slave ship and there's a whole chapter in the book that will also, that was also led by muslims and the peruvian viceroy wrote a letter back to spain once again making the suggestion that spanish authorities have been making for centuries. they would bring these perverse ideas. >> too much trouble. >> those perverse ideas again one can speculate.

the viceroy didn't say what the perverse ideas were but i think when catholics talked about islam they didn't have to specify what the perverse ideas were. everybody knew what the problem was with islam without having to lay it out to. >> what percentage of slaves brought to the american slave. do you have any sense of the scale? >> one scholar says -- is estimated based on origins but there are indications and evidence of muslims who were enslaved in the south and it's well-documented. in terms of her sundhage.

>> how much of what was perceived were actually educated and literate? was there a higher percentage of educated and literate slaves than muslim slaves? >> i think that was part of it. they knew how to read and write in her own language and they also knew spanish enough to listen and on conversations with moseldalen to make sure he was not being tipped off. i think beyond diversity there is a sense that islam was a prophetic universal region that's had a strong ethos of solidarity and justice that i think helped enslaved peoples survive in all sorts of ways. >> how conscious other than people like the traders and

viceroy how conscious were the people, the white people of the americas, they are the people of the americas but the fact that they were muslims? was that part of the deception at all or was it all the same as if they were animus? >> it wasn't a problem until it became a problem. in bahia the largest urban slave rebellion in the americas in history was led by -- had strong participation with muslims in 1835 and that became very much part of the counterinsurgent response as islam as a problem. again from really the first, the early uprisings over assistance

were muslims are often identified as the problem and the crowd were constantly issuing edicts about not enslaving muslims. >> let me ask you with the gentleman being down there in latin america as a new england abolitionist, he runs a slave ship and obviously his first idea is that slavery is bad and dying out as you say and then he suddenly realizes that it's actually the slaves who have imprisoned this captain and killed a number of people. he issues a lot of violence against them without hesitation which helped unite his career. where was he really add on this? how did somebody like that regard slavery? did he feel ultimately like its property and property is property?

>> i think he felt both. in principle he saw himself as a modern person. he was a poster privateering and opposed to arbitrary laws of all kinds and he explicitly said he was opposed to slavery in his memoirs. but then he is caught in this vortex of ecological exhaustion and sees it as supply and demand and he responds as he does. in order to keep his crew intact. dalan now has an interesting trajectory. he comes back to the united states. this was his last major voyage and he has basically broke and all of the leaf of self-mastery, he's an early kind of, he is actually -- he has a quite early

cultural pluralism in his understanding and tolerance of other people. he is not a supremacist. in some ways there are a lot of parallels between melville and the understandings of non-western peoples which i found very compelling. he comes back and he becomes increasingly disillusioned with the whole thing of christianity with the united states. what's interesting, he is on this voyage with his brother. he and his brother come back and they have almost diametrical responses to the violence that they are involved in outside the u.s. borders which i think is almost emblematic. in some ways it's the response. his brother becomes a fundamentalist and a christian fundamentalist. he becomes, he raises the fire and brimstone christianity. they come from dox berrien

duxbury was an early town that embraced unitarianism and had a very liberal understanding of christianity and man's capacity for self perfection. a lot of ministers that would go on and be very influential in articulating what eventually becomes unitarianism came from ducks very and the delano brothers came out of that hothouse of optimism. and you see the response is samuel delano becomes a fundamentalist. moseldalen becomes very dissolution and he writes a letter to his brother right before he dies in the early 1820s that basically talks about abolishing christianity

and is very critical of the united states and the missionaries, particularly the missionaries. so in some ways it's almost emblematic. vietnam creates the new left and the new right. this very strong criticism of an american empire. that's embodied and represented in the responses of the delano brothers to their involvement in this race tear and failure beyond the u.s. border. >> it's interesting what you say about delano, is a delano or don't -- delano? >> in new england they say it's not a masa, it's ominous up. c. >> it's like an amazing little

thing. >> there's only one in the bible so it's in the book is of samuel and i think he's a cousin of king david and, or a nephew of king david and he is killed by his cousin joe who pretends to embrace him as he sticks a dagger and in his side and his intestines spill out on the street. >> this is why you don't know a lot of them. >> he named all this other brother samuel william and alexander and they named him a massa which is the namesake. this is off on a tangent but he was named after his uncle. he was named after his uncle a massa delano who was in the seven-year war and was involved

in the massacre of the americans in the canada region and resorted to cannibalism as they were escaping the retribution that the native americans. >> down the connecticut river. >> down the connecticut river. they want to taking one of the native americans hostage and then they were starving and ended up killing her work killing the boy and eating the boy and they themselves were captured by the community that the boy was from and they were massacred. at why you would name, why somebody would be named -- you can imagine you could read a lot into being named that. >> what you say about him having a similarity with melville about his views seeing other people is other people that seems like

something that melville doesn't see. in other words that's the side of him that isn't innocent abroad. it's an exposure to the world that came with all this sailing around in these feet would go on a four-year voyage and would be loading crews and taking crews to wherever they were. they had to have an awful lot more humanity than the people who stayed around ducks very. >> as a little bit of an aside no billions are obsessed with not just the sources of melville's writing but the physical copies of the book. he wrote an annotated and underline.

one can read that memoir and see a lot of melville stories and had some ways moseldalen could be in a sense, he could be his real product the revolutionary war veteran that again as i mentioned is thrown into world history but can understand it. he's encountering these great events and great people. that's moseldalen. there is a lot -- to answer your question what melville read and moseldalen he did transform him and he didn't transform him into a sympathetic character at all. he transformed them into this broad bumbling through the world in some ways a certain kind of emblematic of innocence that can't see cause-and-effect and can't see the relationship of

one's actions to the consequences of their actions. >> i feel like we are just getting started here but we are actually the at the point where we should open it up or questions. the protocol is to use the microphones. you will be on c-span. here is your moment. to talk to the world and to talk to greg. any questions? you have answered everything. [inaudible] >> bob o. in the true vinzant the historical event is the organizer of the deception but he's not the person who plays the role of the body servant.

melville kind of combines those two characters. there has been a lot of speculation among literary theorists what there was about the name y. and although use that name. >> he didn't have a restaurant so he put on a person. >> anybody else? >> i think he started to answer this question. do you have any evidence about how much of delano's memoirs millville actually read? [inaudible] >> he is undoubtedly a more complex character but there is no evidence, there is nothing. there is no literary or traces

of what melville was thinking orser reynaud so there's a connection connection between him and that memoir that his father-in-law plays a role as a judge in enforcing the fugitive slave acts which leads to the radicalization of politics in the 1850s. as a younger attorney in boston he works pro bono for delano. moseldalen writes his number in order to get out of debtors prison. he is certainly destitute and will e-mail sure helps legal services for free keeping them out of jail and defending them in court for drawing up in contract. on the speculation that he might

have given a memoir to melville but melville could have come across it in the ship's library. an enormous amount of copies for rented for some reason. do record of a masa delano and phil reacted when i told him this story. a masa delano dies and his total estate is a 50-cent used hammoce writing desk and 700 unsold copies. >> that's what happens when you are a writer of a ship's captain. [laughter] >> the hammock sounded very desirable.

if i have time for one question i will ask. there's obviously a huge debate you have alluded to among people who read pill mill bill. where was he at on the sunday talk about in the book, the question whether did he look at slavery in terms of chattel slavery and the economics as a. or was he looking at the whole fish thing and "moby dick" where he says who ain't a slave, tell me that. there's a larger existential view of slavery for him as the absence of freedom and the human condition and that doesn't justify slavery to him obviously but then there are obviously cleared things where he feels on the contrary greater bondage and that is for him a defining aspect whether these characters that pop up throughout. how do you read that in where do you see melville coming out? >> well again melville's

engagement with slavery is often on. it's about emotional bondage or psychological bondage or philosophical bondage and i think he was definitely critical of this fetishizing freedom, understood freedom as individual supremacy. he believed that people lived in relations of dependence and obligation and necessity that kind of elevation the notion of freedom obscure it and called it up via liberty in 1876 but there was no real evidence, paneto serino was the one moment where he engaged specific way with

chattel slavery and the realities of slavery as a social institution but there was an earlier moment and it links up with the story. the first instance in which melville talks about slavery u.s. slavery as u.s. slavery he is in this quasi-memoir called redfern. 1850 or 1849, don't remember the days and there's this wonderful passage where he comes this monument in liverpool the character that represents him. he had been to liverpool and the monument is of lord nelson. [laughter] the monument is lord nelson expiring in his moment of victory against the french. every other nelson statue in britain is very simple or you think about nelson in london and

lord nelson on top of the puzzle puzzle -- pedestal. this has nelson falling back with this horrible skeleton of death reaching up to grab his hard and there are these -- at the base of the pedestal on the statue are for captives who are meant to represent french prisoners of war. melville goes on this extended rant about how they reminded him of slaves in the market and it's this almost, almost a stream of conscious riff on the roles of africa and the wealth of virginia and carolina and slavery created them all. the ideas are interesting that slavery created the wealth of the western world is almost what melville was doing was free associating the way slavery kind of creates a stream of

associations and helps structure consciousness. what is fascinating about that is that statue was put up by a committee of some of the best liverpool men and merchants and mostly they were all including the slave john bolton who was responsible, who owned the ship that had seized by the french pirate in 1804. ble for bringing the west african to the americans that will inspire novell years later to write this masterpiece. so there's ways in which that story in itself and bodies the omnipresence of slavery in western consciousness.

>> a good place to call it. thank you. ambac. [applause] [inaudible conversations]. [applause]

>> thank you for the introduction. i'm delighted to be here to play the role of questionnaire of sylviane diouf about her marvelous new book, "slavery's exiles". and at the end we will have a little time for questions from the audience. there's a microphone over there for that purpose. keep that in mind after we finished our conversation. just to remind you what was said, you can purchase your book outside. is well worth doing. i think to begin sylviane diouf wanted to read a little passage from the book. would you like to start that way >> actually at the end. >> okay. we will plunge right in. let me just ask you, since the term mayor round is maybe not totally widely known, what exactly is a maroon? >> actually, the term comes from

the spanish. in the beginning someone who wandered off the farm. by extension it was used for runaway slaves. it becomes maroon in english. now, what is interesting also is that even know the term is used for any kind of run away, it became used in the swamps, but in the united states maroon was actually reserved for the large maroon communities. and in the united states maroon were actually called runaway or of wires.

>> but normally when we think of runaway slaves we think of people coming into the north, in the canada. you're talking about people who established communities in the south. >> yes. so communities also families, and the south and decided to live in an open way in the woods and swamps. >> now how did you get interested in this subject? it's an interesting and unusual one, but not that many people have written about it. how did you get into it? >> i did not really start wanting to write. i was actually reading a lot about maroon in jamaica, brazil, cuba. and i was looking for

information on maroon in the united states, what they're doing, where they lived. and i couldn't find anything. i found references, you know, a chapter here and they're is a team, something on that particular community, but nothing really comprehensive and detailed. covering the entire time. maybe there's nothing to really find to be to let me just look. as i started to look a found a lot of things, so i decided to rip the book. >> excellent. there is an advanced literature on slavery in the united states, as you well know. why is this particular aspect very neglected to make your quite right, maroon as a general

phenomenon in american and seven history. there were some articles here and there, as you said, but not really very much. what you think it has been neglected? >> well, when i mentioned to other scholars mind doing research on maroon in the united states, the reaction was, how, florida. analysts say, no, and thinking about virginia, the carolinas, georgia. and people were always surprised . you know, the idea, when we look at maroon in the united states people think of florida. a large community, and that's what people think about it. to think of brazil, jamaica. and the idea, you know, of the large communities, well, they were the exceptions. for the americans maroon

communities were actually small, not as big as what the founders. and sometimes several months, several years, one generation. and so again, because, you know, the big communities, to look further individuals and groups and communities based on three criteria. and that was settled in the wilderness, in secret and -- no cultural whatsoever. and then i cannot through those criteria, i really find a new world that has very much

remained under the reader even though they represent the majority maroon. my criteria excluded a number of people. for example, there were just there for a few days. it also excluded the maroon of florida because they were not living in florida in secret. and excluded also, the maroon lived. [inaudible] because there were not living in the wilderness. and there were not living in secret either. >> right. there was -- you mentioned the brazilian example. there was a film of a few years ago about brazilian, but that a gigantic some. so given that they are secret,

but it's one of your criteria, how did you find information about them? the maroon did not leave diaries, letters, publish newspapers. they were in secret. what kind of solicitors did you manage to find? >> that's a surprise. i started thinking, while, he going to look for information. and i use for example 1600's, used legal documents ian. a very early on those mentioned maroon. we can see where the maroons work, what they were up to and what threat posed. then you have put the books, the

plantation books, trees. and i also used newspaper articles mentioned when a settlement was discovered or one -- what the maroons were doing, their activities. runaway slave at, very detailed. and you can follow people. and i did that fares several maroons, including the african maroons, what i did for some of them was to follow them from the slave ship. and then sometimes back to the plantation. and then back to the woods. sometimes with shackles on their

legs. and then you also want to -- i found that. for example, there were trials of maroons. a lot of first-person testimony. there were also -- memoirs of former runaways. sometimes they lived in the woods for some time, but also their family members. for example, for 44 years, his sister was maroons for years. she actually had three children

there. and another was the interview. as you know, about 2300. and there my song really the intimate things. because they were talking about my uncle, my end, my father was in the woods and what they were doing and what the community -- what the relationship with the community was. so there were lots of different. by combining and you can really kind of draw the most accurate portrait they can. >> in jamaica, if i'm not mistaken, the authorities, the british government's eventually conducted treaties or agreed to

treaties with maroons communities. anything like that in the united states? >> note : there were no trees of that sort. communities were small, you know, they went to communities of about 18. but there was never that kind of situation. >> what kind of places where these marine communities connect the sort of landscape, are we talking about places very far from the plantations are actually not -- pretty close? what sort of geographic area are we talking about? >> you know, when i started i realized very early that i had

to kind of construct my own tools to really explore and evidence that brett. and i realize that, you know, they did not really reflect the reality. and when i looked at what was going on on the ground i came up with this idea for the maroons landscape. within this maroons landscape, when we think of those, you know, we have this idea of people living in a specific measure global what i saw was that actually maroons lived in of very large area.

the borders of plantations, but they also went to the city's. the people who lived -- and what i mean is that the people were living far away, but they were living in secluded areas, sometimes not very far, but difficult to access. and that -- you know, the border land was part of this maroons landscape. and that landscape, this maroons landscape actually went into the plantation and into the city. so we have a very large measure. and i also saw how maroons used the entire landscape. they moved from one to another, from one state to another. they weren't really using, you know, the entire geographic to

their vantage. >> and what role do family relations play into four communities? when people escape from plantations and live in the woods or in other areas, did there families come with them? did they go back to farms and plantations to see there families? how does family relation play into this? >> that's one of the things that i discovered which was really fascinating. when people run away to the north or canada day severed our relations to their family. it was very, very hard to do. they could spend the rest of their lives wondering. now one of the reasons, one of the reasons -- and there were many, but one of the reasons why maroons became a maroons is that what they wanted to do was to live with their family, to be

free to live free with the families. and what they did was, for example, they're all family leave the plantation and settle at the border. but there were also of the cases. as you know, slavery dislocated families. the slave trade, that became even more dramatic with people being sold from virginia to alabama. so what people did was to use a number of strategies to keep their families together. for example, virginia, alabama or run away to the woods or that

person would then go to alabama and in there was a third strategy. they would walk back to maryland or north carolina. each time at the end of the road and that's the only place they could be with their families. that was the only way they have. >> that's a very interesting. it suggests an your book shows, the way you been describing it, we should not think of a sharp, you know, rigid distinction between marines moving away from

plantation and then people who were slaves on farms and plantations. they seem to intersect with each other, communicate with each other. presumably there was some kind of assistance from slaves who were living within slavery, food, information. >> absolutely. these continued relations between people who were at the border land of the plantation and people on the plantation -- just as an example, we've been talking a lot, for many months. she came a night to the plantation. you know, so that was very, very common. maroons, whether they lived in

the borders or in the hinterland or coming back to the plantation not only to see, to get for love and comfort, if crude, to get information and no role of a community and was really crucial you can imagine people working in night on plantations. the key to families in saved quarters but went to the plantations -- slaughtered cattle and pigs. they went to the cities to trade . so the maroons, talking about the large landscapes.

the maroons really went all over and continued to have a very crucial and a close relation with the people. >> now, fugitive slaves who escaped to the north, some of them became very famous abolitionists, as you well know, speakers, frederick douglass being the most prominent, but quite a few others. and the abolitionists made a big, you know, devoted a lot of attention to talking about fugitive slaves and publicizing what happened. did maroons play a part in this sort of abolitionist's consciousness? did abolitionist's talk about maroons, use them as evidence zeppelin of the evils of slavery or attempt to ignore them? >> they tried to ignore them which to me was kind of

interesting and shocking. well, maybe not-shocking actually. when they mentioned maroons it was. [inaudible] you know, kind of wise themselves. and the idea behind that would show the evil of slavery. people have to live like wild beasts to escape. to escape enslavement at the same time, you know, the idea of black people being so fooled was not exactly what the abolitionists were about.

[inaudible] , that's put it that way. and so they did not mention the tunnel. very, very rarely. >> how did these maroons, my original anyway, our heritage of the old south is that it's full of slave patrols, you know, people looking for fugitives, looking for slaves who were off the plantation without permission, without a pass. how did these battle groups of communities managed to escape just being captured? >> and that's one of the things that is really exciting to see. of course many were captured, but you also have peoplehood who managed to remain for years. i'm thinking, for example, of. [inaudible]

and he, his wife, and their 15 children lived and the world's for more than 50 years. they got out of the was only after. there were people who spent seven years, ten years, 20 years in the woods. you have to really admirer people who were able to go to the plantation. another example of this man who lived a few miles from their wife and children and lived there for five years until emancipation. during that time his wife and children looked exactly him 90 of the two. the time i saw and, you know, it

was the day he ran away. and he actually came three times a week. [laughter] to see her for five years. you know, it's actually extraordinary. the complicity of the community, this would not have been possible because does look add. [inaudible] , one close to the other. people do. people knew. either the general manner, very precisely. there were close to the plantation and did not talk. but one of the ways that people lived, and that to me was a real revelation. when you live with the bottom, you know, it's a very risky

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one thing also that i found so you know you have all these incredible determinations to be free and to remain free. at the same time what i found was that people live underground and newspapers mentioned that when they discovered the caves and nobody had anything to say about that. there was no command. some of them didn't even mention it so this is really i mean, the maroons who lived underground were as unseen by anybody in the american continents. >> that is what i mean when they are references to people living in caves.

whatever they were, they were these underground things that could be fairly extensive in some ways. interesting. how do you think he fits into the larger story of slavery systems. is it a major part of back? is it a small side issue? is a part of the spectrum ranging from people on plantations resisting to slave rebellions or how do you fit it into a story of what we know is continual resistance by african-americans to slavery? >> i think you know again i say that it's a major problem because you know just in terms of sheer numbers and we don't know what the numbers are by the way. i would probably say