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tv   Key Capitol Hill Hearings  CSPAN  May 9, 2014 6:00pm-8:01pm EDT

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these services and programs contribute significantly to their ultimate academic success. they include academic advising, career counseling including baylor provide very high quality computer service and study
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lounges. student athletes also receive financial benefits which help them progress to a degree completion. the tuition and board fees for educational answers. the purpose and offering financial assist answers to encourage to complete their academic work in the vast majority do. the legal issue of employee status is ultimately a matter of congressional and 10 and we agree with that. in the instance however, the direct or has mechanically and we believe erroneously applied a rigidly wooden tasks draw from that, mom, notwithstanding his chairman suggested, the absence of any congressional intent
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athletics as an employment dania. the private institution creates a dichotomy. for example, the decision rightly knows the northwestern university's nonsectarian. but the nlrb has been struggling in various dimensions with religious liberty limitation on its own jurisdiction. so we should reasonably expect some private religious affiliated universities to challenge the voice authority to be regulating institutional missions expressly grounded in a religious view. the second and more structurally significant disparity is the decision in pacific's question of state institutions in intercollegiate ethics, private universities compete the same institution in this will likely create many discrepant these. >> thank you.
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mr. livingstone, here recognized. >> good morning, mr. chairman and members of the committee. as the supreme court is to become the principles developed for the industrial setting cannot be imposed in the academic world. while fully support purposes allowing employees whether or not to form a labor union. the nlrb itself has recognized a problem of attempting to force the student university it into the traditional employer employee framework that problem is apparent. the universe via primary mission mission is to educate his students included student-athletes. do not think there neither hired by a college nor providing little services. at least there's units who are participating the programs with the tool and role as both student and not late trading these participants as employees
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were a student at late professional athlete are also students. but even as student-athletes could be considered employees, the term is undefined in the nl ira, employee status conflicts with the principles in that act. consistent consist of and agreements from other industries, they can negotiate over the scheduling duration of practice time, distribution of playing time from the scholarship allocation by dollar value and play a position non-darkening players come in this case walk ons, the right to playing games. in a broad range of statutory wages, hours another term and conditions of employment described in the nlrb precedent. they can negotiate academic standards, including minimum grade point average, requirements, the number of four-month examination papers in any course. grievance procedures to challenge a professor's great
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and even potentially graduation requirements. unlike with statutory requirements, the college cannot refuse to bargain over changes to its own conference or ncaa rules. eventual differences in the conditions under which collegiate teams practice and compete will guarantee competitive imbalances. if college football players or employees, the nlra makes it clear they will organize an appropriate bargaining unit, not the most appropriate bargaining unit. because the petition for unit will be considered appropriate and must larger or now shares an overwhelming community of interest with that group, the color should have difficulty proving the remainder of the football team shares an overwhelming community ventures juicy to represent just the teams quarterbacks. different rules among discrete groups that compare to what will happen under different work
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rules negotiated with respective unions. in professional sports, every team is a private employer renders the nlra's jurisdiction that can therefore be covered under a single collective bargaining agreement. the major professional sports leagues have their own multiemployer collective bargaining agreement to cover the leak and all of its teams. those agreements provide a relatively level playing field whether a salary caps, minimum wage progressions come in free agency, drug testing protocols, even revenue-sharing. unlike national league scum of the same will not be turned college football because its jurisdiction is limited to the private employers the nlrb is creating rules for athletes and only 17 schools. fewer than 15% of the participants. it's almost certain the regime for recognizing and bargaining with union will not apply to the remaining 80 factors and better public universities governed by his date and beyond the nlrb
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jurisdiction. some states expressly made it public sector bargaining. others off and are limited to certain objects or types of employees. other states that no laws or prohibit public sector beckoning entirely. a bill before ohio house of representatives clarifies this did not plate at public colleges and universities are not employees. conversely, connecticut legislators indicate build reduce legislation stating that public college athlete are in fact employees. but that unified collective bargaining agreement like the nba or nfl, every college team must send for help with its employee athletes. athletic departments that can afford it may be able to hire the best employers. institutions with fortunes of job offers are not as robust may attract lesser talent. the resulting patchwork of conflicting statuses as employees are not bargaining rights, labor contracts as
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inaptly rolls will create competitive imbalances. the national labor relations act is not an appropriate vehicle with disputes athletic conference's or the ncaa. for these are the other reasons in my writ testimony with the student-athletes of employees covered the nlrb is simply unworkable. mr. chairman and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to share my thoughts with you today. >> thank you. mr. schwartz, you are recognized. >> chairman kline, thank you for allowing me to testify in issues related to college football. i minishorts, economist who is antitrust and economics the college words. the partner with the us cayard testifies olea mail behalf. as members of the committee now, the nlrb authorized an election for northwestern football
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athletes set to start it want to provide a few facts of those proceedings. scholarship football athletes at northwestern develop 40 to 60 hours per week during the five-month season in 15 to 25 hours or read the rest of the year. they receive academic credit. they're not super that faculty and football is not a direct part of the curriculum of undergraduate majors. i understand the panels focused on unintended consequences of a messy college football so i want to explain the biggest threat to college words from collective action is the current price fixing ncaa. i'm focused on how division i schools including mandolin at stanford stifle economic competition through pollution to impose limits on all forms of comp patient. college football is an enormously popular consumer product that generates passion from seeing them believe the revenues from schools for broadcast television networks for merchandise companies. fbs football is a professional
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sports industry. football and reported 3.2 billion in revenue in the most recent federal filings. do i backslide it to another 1.4 billion. individual athletic departments regularly generate more revenue and almost all nhl and nba teams. former ncaa president myles brand x and maximizing revenue was the only responsible path for college sports. that's exactly how he diapered as they should behave. there's an economic darkside which is price fixing. the nlra antitrust laws work together to make sure when they perform partnerships, negotiations are failing at a choice failing industry since allocating a nice collective collective-bargaining path or more free-market approach given by the antitrust laws. given the one-sided power imposed by collusion come it's not surprising players have turned to vapor lock into unionization for a modicum of
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countervailing arcane power. other american sport negotiating with the union to achieve a competitive outcome. leeks generally encourage unionization. in 2011 the nfl players thought to minireunion, but the nfl went to court to demand they remain the union. again the players wishes. as an economist, focus on the free market value, which is high, but it did in the capital is focused things. enhancing educational safety component of bargains and radical coverage, reducing head trauma on improving graduation rates and establishing educational trust fund to ensure athletes can finish their degrees. because the time of limits also might i point to make the rest for question period. because most athletes do not want to work in the nfl, ncaa collusion effectively denies 90 fibers and are more of college athletes are therefore best for 13 years that their entire career. for some, those navy therefore best earning years.
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and if i would go to that place hasn't had funneled to coaches and elaborate recruiting policies. college football coaches make as much as $7 million a year. shunting money to coaches also deprives women athletes of title ix matching funds. collusion shifts the burden from a private school at northwestern to taxpayer-funded holograms, sometimes the fans or by forcing students to leave school to support their families. the current tax code exempt from taxation the tuition portion of the next scholarships as well as tuition remission beats university employees as part of a broader compensation package. nothing in the ruling should change that initiative, congress itself has the power to make sure it doesn't happen. finally, d&c limits consumer choice at this centrally planned one-size-fits-all product offering. i also want to say that turned student-athletes itself was created to dodge legal responsibilities for athletes
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safety and to avoid economic competition. the resources for new tv deals alone are sufficient for orderly transition from a command-and-control economy to a market-based one. americans have the legal right to economic markets free of collusion. until that right is respected for college athletes, of course they will see collective alternatives. an athlete who has bargain individually or collect way to ensure he is well fed, given rail access to a full range of majors at the school. the flower head trauma and a lifelong disabilities going to be in a better position to benefit from a true education in a hungrier concussed factly forced into a dead-end nature. thank you for your time. >> thank you. >> chairman kline chimeric member miller and members of the committee, i am pleased to be here to provide comments about the extent of student-athletes at stanford university. the comments are specific to
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stanford and are not focused on the details of the case currently before the national labor relations board, but i hope to help the lemonade some of the larger issues addressed today. stanford has 7000 undergraduate and a nearly 9000 graduates to hear the university recognized internationally for academic quality. we offer 36 varsity sports, try for women in exchange for men. 900 students participate in intercollegiate sports. 53% of men and 43% of women. the most successful programming in the sports for the last 19 years. we are proud of the athletic achievements arrested not rates. but i want to emphasize in my testimony this morning is that than athletics we never lose sight of the larger mission. danford is a university first and academic mission comes first. the most important thing for athletes walk out the door with the stanford degree. 97 senator student-athletes
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achieve this goal, including 93% of student-athletes. the athletic experience is not pursued at the expense or separate and apart. each enhances the other. one out of every undergraduate students at stanford as a student athlete. this is not a separate group. having a separate experience from the rest of the student
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in other capacities. i discussed these issues were extensively.
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i want to address the relationship that i revenue from athletics is used. the stanford football manifest will generate revenue through ticket sales and tv contracts. the vast majority 36 sports do not. all the revenue the university receives from the sport is used to support the overall athletic or graham i
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others are likewise interested in improving student-athletes across the country. thank you. >> thank you. mr. eilers. >> mr. chairman, ranking member miller, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today present the ongoing quest to improve the environment for student-athletes on college campuses. before i do so, i would like to
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make one comment on strictly my own. although i was a student at it at the university of notre dame and later obtained a masters degree from graduate school of management at northwestern university, i do not speak for nor do we represent these institutions. i speak only for myself. i graduated from university of notre dame in 1889 with a bachelor of science degree in biology and also pursuing a second undergraduate degree in mechanical engineering, which i received a year later. wire is a student at notre dame i played for your sparsity fuzzball and also played on varsity baseball team. a transfer from yale university to begin myself react and had a fifth year of academic eligibility affording me the opportunity to complete my second degree. i transferred to notre dame to pursue excellence in the classroom and on the football field. i felt notre dame offered me the opportunity to do well in both. while it lets me see, is
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certainly was achievable. the infrastructure was and remains in place to assist student-athletes to achieve notre dame. i have a daughter who is currently a collegiate student-athletes are. a witness even further improvements such as mandatory for all incoming athletes. i am not an attorney and first in law, so i will leave the legal argument to the experts to my right. the impetus for today's panel is the nlrb ruling that college athletes are deemed employees, which would enable them to potentially unionize under the national labor relations act. the union pursued as a means to an end, a vehicle if you will to implement improvements to our athletic system. there's little debate about necessary logical improvements, which i will describe. i believe the debate today should instead be focused on
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seeking the most effect vehicle to cause the implementation of these improvements. the crux of the problem is that the student athlete should be students first and foremost. i am concerned college athletes employees will make that system more of a business than it rdas. in my mind, we need to gravitate collegiate athletics toward the student centric model, not the other way around. i also worry about the unintended consequence of being deemed an employee in what unionization could bring to college athletics. that said is a former student not late, i support many of the goals of the national college players association and the college athletes players association that the ranking member describing friend. i've mandated for your scholarships, health insurance benefits inspected.
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i will address transfer eligibility briefly. for your scholarship as a student athlete should maintain an athletic scholarship for at least four, debatable five years in the date you enter college, assuming you maintain the school is academic and disciplinary standards
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made up of colleges and universities, but also affiliated groups, end of quote. perhaps because of this charter committee appears to me the ncaa may not have been able to take that this premise to verse membership on these issues. i don't have a solution to this
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problem, but i question the need to unionize, to effectuate the implementation of these initiatives. one final note come it is difficult to maintain that we truly have a student athlete system given the relatively low graduation rates for student-athletes at many institutions across the country. this is not an acceptable outcome and i don't see how classified the student-athletes at the employees is going to improve the situation. finally, i was a student at that at notre dame. i was not an employee at the university nor did i want to be one. conversely, i played six years professional football including three here for the redskins where i was an employee and i wanted to be one. thank you. i would be pleased to answer any questions you have. >> thank you. think of the witnesses. panel of true experts. because your honor voltaire, mr.
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mr. eilers, i will start with you. a guy from st. paul going on to do other things. notre dame you're part of a national championship team and i'm deeply disappointed you couldn't help the vikings be a super bowl team. you mentioned that your daughter is played lacrosse at notre dame. with her -- watching her experience in your experience, i am wondering if you are ever discouraged at notre dame from taking a class or pursuing a major because you are a student not late. >> i was not in a not enacting further they encouraged us to pursue our academic passions, mr. chairman. >> and he wisely moved on from a bachelors degree in elegy, which i had also vowed. if you -- i think probably most
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of us on this panel, i know i can't recur everybody on both sides of the outcome at the mention a lot of issues that could be it should be addressed, injuries would start of a list of things not to be looked at in your conclusion was that it sent a the university is coming notre dame and all of them come including baylor and stanford are to be addressed being a member of a union, the student-athletes being a member of the union employees would help that. am i oversimplifying your position? >> i don't think you're a recent find. judge starr's baylor, bernards from the stanford, it is an option to provide for scholarships. each of our institutions provide that for athletes. that is not universally adopted across the country and i think for a student athlete not to graduate from university with a a degree in hand is a total
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disservice. >> thank you. i think judge starr, you mentioned some elect 86%. could you talk about your graduation rate for your student athletes again very quickly? >> this last academic year 82% did in fact graduated. i never did in fact go on to pursue degrees as well have advanced degrees, graduate degrees. here is the key point. it is individual choice here but it's the culture? that's the responsibility of the university. does the university create a culture that encourages the student to do the best he or she can? they're obviously important issues to be addressed. we completely agree with that we are part of a conversation that is nationwide with respect to what can we do better? we know there are things that can in fact be improved, especially the full cost of
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attendance. completely agree with that. the real question with respect to the nlrb, mr. chairman, is are we going to in fact use the national labor relations that as a tool for negotiating improvements? it seems to be exactly the wrong way to go. for starters, if i may just make one additional point, the collective bargaining agreement or the collective bargaining unit recognized by the regional director doesn't include the entire football team. so if your walk on, if you're one of the 35 members of the football team at northwestern, a representative come if the union is in fact elect it is not quite be represented. you will be outside the unit. quite apart from the nonrevenue spores and that is a fundamental issue. we are treating all of our student athletes the same that we want to in fact encouraged this culture that we want you to go to school. we want you to earn your degree
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and we want to help prepare you for your journey in life. >> thank you. in your testimony you talked about football and basketball were moneymakers and that money went to the other sports. could you just remind us again how the distribution goes? your microphone. >> the tv goes back into supporting 36 ports in our case, which is one of the larger offerings run the country. but it is to enhance all of our student athletes that we support them so we can have a theory port. >> thank you. mr. miller. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i assume you are calling for a larger bargaining unit. [laughter] >> it does raise, mr. miller, the issue. the continuity adventures, the community of interest. >> mr. eilers, went to thank you
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for your testimony because he testified a very straightforward matter about the issues about the student said her thruster we're racing veteran .. i believe to the football programs around the country. the security of the scholarship before your scholarship is supposed to year-to-year that can be used as a weapon to student performance to that somebody else to the squad, the health insurance benefits when you suffer disability as a result of battery booster likability in your scholarship, and these things start to accumulate and send students. the second issue you raised and the transfer issue. these are the issues the students thought necessary to form a union around because the marketing satisfaction and i suspect you would find that if you travel to the college campuses that are sports programs that the students feel they are caught up and only there for four years, whatever.
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this time and they are not being addressed. i find it interesting that other witnesses have held their testimony to that notion and that is their belief this is a student athlete. your student athletes at northwestern said what about the athletic side of the? what about where he spent 50 hours a week? what is the imposition of a security do they have? apparently that can never quite get address. that brings me to you. if you read mr. livingstone's testimony, he could tell you by this integral work at trade conferences, colleges and maybe even the media would not be a shield against issues raised by the bargaining unit. they could travel all over any that go into the academic side. that same network as used as a weapon against the athletes.
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the same network as used as a weapon when they want to talk about unfair statement feher because they don't have any voice and not at all. the school is happy giving you a four year -- but that is not every school in the leak. maybe not even in the pack 12. but we have to check with the conference. we are bound by the rules. also remember today the conference to get in. conferences are like commodities painted the front to generate tv revenues. it's no longer allegiance of the fans or the old libraries. it's what are the revenues generated midweek, we can playoffs. >> you want to explain if you're a handful of sudan and the northwestern program for the high you are heard and get results during your career? >> sure. as i could address a couple things.
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one of the statements i heard his baylor treats all of us to athletes the same. there's a cap on how many students can receive scholarships on what kinds are prohibited from proceeding scholarships. broussard and sunsets a caste system that is created. that is a term used to describe pain at the distinguishes between scholarship that is another athletes who likely would get a scholarship if the school were actually allowed to exercise individual choice. instead, there's a cap that prevents it. directly to your point, the way i like to think about the claim that schools are poor in their athletic departments is that it is similar to sail wall street banker who brings in a million dollars of salary, but maybe he's been divorced twice a week valid point in. pbs kids in college. maybe a couple mortgages. once he's done paying for those things, there's not a lot of money left. >> i think that is sort of the
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point that the knight commission founded 2010. there's not enough money to provide the scholarships. there's not enough money to help the other sports. the escalating coaches salaries are created and unsustainable growth of athletic expense this. so you could bury $7 million in two salary, $3 million i recognize that the exception. more and more people join the fraternity. but then you can't quite take care of your athletic obligation campuswide. i think we see here bnc 2a is constructed an overwhelming network to be used against these questions being raised, even commissioned as prominent as the knight commission that examined this impact in the relationship has student athletes to not display the students chose to become employees because they recognize the situation they were in their classic employer
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employee relationship. thank you. >> pajamas time is expired. i ask unanimous consent the american council on education comeau schwan street in certain athletes would have a range of negative and troubling consequences. >> i will submit an article from the stanford daily. student-athletes have access to easy courses. >> without objection both will be entered into the record. dr. fox. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i want to thank all of our witnesses here today. you have provided some fascinating information to as and i am grateful to you. somebody spent a lot of time in education and higher education that was student-athletes and students who weren't athletes. so i appreciate the information. judge starr, i understand the other's priorities education. tax, all of you have talked about that.
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we do describe a balers that the grants work with the academic programs to ensure athletes can prioritize their studies while also meeting commitments to the team? >> one of the keys, dr. fox covers the planning process that goes into developing the nature planning, the schedule was student-athletes do have registration, so we do not have a crowding out kind of question. throughout the academic year, there is a careful monitoring of as students progress and if there
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tax law, fair labor's and it's not could all be implicated. would you tell us your thoughts on the possible implication of these flaws for baylor and stanford? >> the very serious issue with respect to title ix in particular if the football scholarships to athletes are all employees, been infected is going to create very serious issue in terms of the balance with respect to title ix
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requires. there's a whole host of other issues as well. we are very sent this to that and therefore does osha have jurisdiction in the context as well. >> we want to ensure many issues that is student its rays are already covering at stanford. the path we call her student-athletes employees with the relationship and the things making sure the broad offering. >> mr. bishop. >> thank you for your testimony.
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i went to thank you for your testimony because you've highlighted some of the issues that i want to talk about. you've described the effort at northwestern as a means to an end. i think it is also fair to describe it as a cry for help. i think that we talk about having the student not least interest at the center of what we do and i used to run a college, division ii school. but there's really nobody talking for the students. i think what is happening at northwestern as this is an effort to get somebody to listen. and so i want to address this to judge starr. you're both represent highly regarded, very prestigious institutions that have preceded both on the athletic failed and in the classroom. you both are members of very large conference is. and i want to just go over with the players at northwestern are asking for.
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they ask for efforts of paint, risk. they are asking to prevent players from being stuck paying sports medical expenses. they're asking graduation and educational opportunities be protect it. they are prohibited from use in a permanent injury suffered to reduce or eliminate scholarship if they ask to establish and enforce uniform safety guidelines in all sports to help prevent serious injuries and avoidable deaths and they are asking to prohibit the punishment of college athletes that have not committed a crime. is there anyone on that list that i've mentioned that unreasonable? is there any pieces that your institution with a now i'm awful sorry, we can't do that. or let me phrase it positively. would you reach the right to leave enough for in your
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respective conference is to see to it that your fellow member institutions they absolutely, guys. you're absolutely right. we are going to do it. the right thing to do. >> mr. bishop, i think that series of questions are in fact important. they are legitimate and we are in fact continually working towards addressing them. take the concussion policy. the ncaa does have a concussion policy requires members -- our conference requires that we have a concussion policy. we continually monitor that. their studies underway for the university of virginia and the ncaa has personally -- has directly funded a study. so this is involving science. so yes, what to do. >> question. i don't need to be rude, but i only have five minutes. should we not -- if unionization is says that his government if you think it is, should we not use this as a catalyst?
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not just talk about conversations and not just talk about yes we are looking at it. let's do it. you are very powerful institutions in very powerful conferences that people look to for leadership. can you not just say we are going to lead an effort to make this happen? >> truthfully, i believe it is happening. can we move more quickly? of course you could always move more quickly. it is in fact a serious conversation with the narrative issues divide the rest are under serious review. the division i in this conversation who is seeking the student athlete. >> there's multiple individuals including the student-athletes themselves. a number of our constituencies, both on and off campus posting we need to student-athletes and certainly we are being attentive
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to that. our presidents are at the table. they are constantly thinking about this, trying to take leadership roles is he so mentioned. i was not flooded rectors raided yesterday. this is a prominent discussion point because we do want to make sure the student athletes experience is the best it possibly can be. >> let me just say one thing. i hope it can somehow collectively get to the point where we hold student athletes. a coach can break a contract with impunity. when you left you a university, you have to sit out a year. i don't understand why a coach can break a contract with impunity and a student athlete is penalized if he wants to move from one is petition to another institution that he thinks better services needs. >> mr. eilers commensurate to comment on that quick >> i cited in my testimony that i do think if you are -- i don't understand why we can't get her. people should go to college and
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get degrees first and foremost be a part of the educational experience, at least for me, was participate in a sports related program like someone would do trauma, speech, debate, what have you. it has made me who i am today. it's been a better father, better husband, better businessperson. i would disagree with mr. schwartz's characterization that separate and distinct from educational experience. i think it's integral like any of those things. what we need to do is make sure student-athletes have the ability of to go to an institution for four years centered readably with the degree. so if that's the case, i would respectfully disagree that there should be some quick pro-crow. that person should make a commitment to that coach to give them four years of service coming out of high school. if we don't do that though, then i would submit what you are suggesting that we should allow people to send fool around. it should be equal. i wanted to raise street to be
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equal for both parties. >> javelins time is expired. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman here just to clarify a couple thinks mr. schwartz started with full disclosure. the head basketball coach and athletic or why went to college did both jobs for a long time. this is a made division i school and i am absolutely committed to college at addicts. i donated the money to build the athletic academic center college. mr. schwartz come a point at how much money and i agreed the end paa is scum of the most out of it the lofty level. i just pulled up on my ipaq right here most colleges lose money in athletics. a few of the big areas, big schools do, but it is a $9 million budget. not a $90 million budget. there's schools at that level are struggling. this is unionization in a private university.
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not a state university. athletes, mr. bishop come a couple things you can transfer now without loss of a time. if you transfer a different level. division one, division two committees can play immediately just to clarify for everyone. either mr. livingstone or maybe judge starr, i think this ruling, what concerns me, at least when i played sports, it was fun. it sounds like some kind of treachery here. for the most part sport are fine. that is why you play sports. as mr. eilers clearly said, he added a six years as a student athlete and it made him a better -- you mention it very eloquently. it taught me -- i learned a lot on the playing field i would never have learned in the classroom. i think this ruling could potentially call schools just to drop football or sports.
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>> well, we have to consider all options in terms of the best interest of the university. i know the president at the university of delaware has said he was a suit athlete and of the university of delaware would not be able to continue. so it really is raising a host of serious questions. it could in fact have a minimum cost programmatic curtailments. i think it raises the issues we talked about under title ix, how do you achieve the title ix very important balance to achieve as a matter of policy and as a matter of law. it is completed the wrong way to go to address these very issues. the number of questions that i raised first though the area. they are just remarkably wide-ranging. i don't think there is a real and there for most these questions. the fair labor standards act is yet another. the antitrust laws themselves that were emphasized earlier.
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so it is bringing us into a sea of complete uncertainty. >> excuse me, go ahead. >> if i might add, the issues that mr. schwartz talked about in terms of the protection for entire leagues, where they'll be long under one collective bargaining agreement is absolute correct for professional sports. that does not exist in college sports. the nlrb only recovered 17 out of the approximately 120 schools to play football. and so, you end up with a potential arms race for those that can afford it and others, may decide to make a decision to get rid of it. sports are competitive, said the teams that want to win are going to pay their way up to win. >> i think if northwestern unites us that they will play 12 homecoming games is what they're going to do. the event the student-athlete union ices and can agreement
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terms and conditions, it is possible to student-athletes will strike. >> is a traditional tool and collective bargaining. and that itself raises not only just the idea, seems to be a thinkable that the football team goes on strike, what about the non-scholarship athletes. again, the incoherence of the collective bargaining agreement. but does that mean they also lock on a class? if they are employees, what is the relationship to the academic enterprise? >> i think mr. eilers i will give you the final comment. when i was in college, true student-athletes, our quarterback is a physics math major and there's many people that use a lead asked to do what you've done to enhance and you obviously are an incredible athlete because he played professional football. i think your comments are absolutely spot on and that is the waiver should look at it as a student athlete. he pointed out some students play in a band.
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they does for hours. some go to rotc. they were carting drama and other things. so i could be the final say on this. >> the gentleman time has expired. brilliant timing. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i think listening to the testimony, most people i think would agree that what happened at northwestern was because the ncaa has created a vacuum in terms of students being treated fairly. if you look at the missions even at the college athletes players association, one of the nationstate and item is to provide better to process and sanction actions. again, i represent the university of connecticut. we had an exciting spring. shabazz made you made to incredible acting courageous comments during the course of the lead up to the tournament number one describing in a way that might be embarrassing to
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some that sometimes he went to bed hungry at night and that is because of the nickel in time for the mickey mouse ncaa rules in terms of defining what universities can provide his due to. i mean, it was almost comical to see mr. amer rushed to announce a new rule in a row 15 and now has. of course not because of what mr. napier said, but for a lot of us, it seems at times the only thing that changes is the external pressure. frankly that is what i think this event at northwestern has produced. we would be having a hearing to talk about the plight of student but for the actions of those students. there were other times in the process is far more pernicious than maybe missing a midnight snack. you know, we look at what happens when you ban us. the due process, and i use that term loosely if the ncaa geisha parts are many times she's the
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bystander in an effort to comport with some masher of student athletes. that score was banned because of a cohort of sudan who had poor academic performance and there's no one going to dispute that. in 2007, not one player on that team was around at the university when those scores triggered an ap are finding that was four year look back. and yet they found themselves in a situation where they were banned from postseason play because of a rule that makes absolutely no sense. by the way, other schools are doing a one in a system, which tried to explain that to the average person why that is okay and get a suit is punished. he's going to graduate in a couple weeks. he's getting his full degree. he is getting punished for some need somebody you never knew was that doors seven years earlier in terms of their performance. that is where again i am very
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skipped both frankly of the protection for students who get swept up in the bizarre byzantine system of to comport with student-athletes and with all due respect to the witnesses here, i don't think colleges and universities because they have their own pressures in terms of not rocking the boat to really step up and provide real honest to god advocacy for students who are getting swept that. kerry chose the third was disqualified at baylor because his mother took three small loads but he was a high school soft or before he even went to baylor and yet he was punished later on in his college career because his mother was in desperate financial situation took a short-term loan. no one wants to vouch for that. nonetheless, why would he get punished for that except for the ncaa's desperate attempt to try and somehow comport with the definition of student athletes. mr. short, i guess when we talk
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about treating people with dignity because that is to be what is really so offense is about the way, you know, the ncaa violated patient rights and demand investigation. the power they can exert again tramples on people's ability to even have basic due process rights of the sanction hearings and investigations. i'm wondering if you could put your comments. >> it is a great step in the ncaa has started famous: to give that he anneal if they're allowed to. previously, the individual choice to be tenafly was prohibited beyond a certain number of meals. that is the level of cartel control here. you're exactly right that the issue is not whether a benevolent organization wanting to provide the people who bring value with some crumbs. it's advocacy. i don't know how often james brown is quoted here.
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he sang at a want nobody to give me nothing. open up the door, i get amazed out. that is effectively what the movement is about. give it some avenue. let us come in. it's an ncaa violation to come ask for money right now. you permanently banned. >> to gentleman's time has expired and i want to commend the gentleman from connecticut for getting a little bracket without actually mentioning the basketball word. [laughter] dr. desjarlais. >> i appreciate you offered any expertise. i want to go to mr. livingstone first and ask a few questions. mr. livingstone, the nlrb regional or his decision in northwestern applies solely to private universities because state universities as state government because state universities of state government entities are excluded from nlra
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coverage. that being said decision only applies to a portion of the universities in each conference and division. however, state law applies to public colleges. what are the differences between state and federal laws regarding the collective bargaining and the mandatory subjects of bargaining differ? >> there are a variety of differences. the state actually vary widely. the nlra covers organizing roles, broken a determination, subjects of bargaining in the right to engage in economic action. all of the stiffer under various state laws. for example, sudbury the public sector market entirely. others permit very limited terms. others don't have the right to engage in academic action. others, for example would have different subjects be negotiated by different routes in different bargaining agreements. ultimately would end up the playing field.
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when they compete, unlike professional sports, you've got something that i simply don't think is workable. >> okay, yeah, that is an important point that scholarship athletes to organize the union universities will bargain over terms and conditions of employment and the parties are compelled to bargain over mandatory subjects of bargaining. ..
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hours of work so in terms of schedules and potentially even class attendance. while campus schools may be limited right now if they are eventually certified of some organizations may be they become greater than any other union wouldn't be limited to the goals we have heard today. >> no vent that a student athletes unionize they will pay dues to the union. where are these payments coming from? >> the dues are an internal matter so they -- how they decide to do it is up to them but under section 302 of the labor relations act is clear that the employer can pay. the employer would have to bargain over checkoff for example but that is bargain over wages so unless we are talking about wages in some form the unions would have to answer that
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or any of the union. >> we touched briefly earlier on on taxation. these universities and organizations are tax-exempt. if the student becomes an employer aren't they subject to taxation and if so does that affect programs abilities to get student loans? how do we go down that road? >> beyond my area of expertise but i do believe that others perhaps can answer that question. >> is somebody else have a quite quite -- comment on that? >> section 61 of the internal revenue code has a very capacious definition of what is income so if an individual is an employee then very strong arguments. obviously this is a big question but it's going to open up serious questions about the entire range of services including the scholarship itself. there are issues presently with respect to how scholarship is treated but if they are
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employees than its compensation and is presumptively taxable. >> if they are employees and we presume you would have to pay taxes on it i would presume that the goals of any scholarship negotiation and wage negotiations would be to increase that amount to take into account the tax consequences. >> thank you. i yield back. g-men yields back. ms. fudge. >> thank you. >> thank you very much mr. chairman and thank you all for being here today. i just want to make a couple of comments about things i heard in her earlier testimony. i want to go back to something my colleague mr. courtney said. i happen to have gone to ohio state university and i knew a lot of the football players when i was in school. this was an issue then and it is today so why hasn't been taken care of in more than 30 years? there's no reason for it and but for the courageous actions of these young men's we wouldn't be talking about it today. i want to put that on the record and for you mr. livingstone you talk about the ohio statehouse who has determined that our
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athletes are not employees just because they said it doesn't make it so. these are the same people that wanted to restrict voting rights so just because they said that doesn't make it so. as well we do know the student athletes that scholarship athletes are treated differently than those not on scholarship. we know it and we just need to admit it and not pretend there is some difference. the restrictions they have and the time commitment is much different than students who are nonscholarship students. the first question i would really like to ask mr. schwarz in your written testimony you mentioned the level of profit the ncaa is making off its student athletes. do you know if any of that profit is dedicated in any way to providing health benefits to the student's? >> some of it is. i mean most off field injuries the immediate cost of that injury is covered. it's not required but it is
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covered. long-term injuries that linger typically are less likely to be covered so it's not always the case. can i add one quick thing real fast? you mention since you are in college there has been a problem. the reason there are are is because the ncaa and voted them away in 1973. they have been claiming that they have been talking about bringing it back now since 1973. in 1986 some and was tried but did not pass. now they are telling you it's coming real soon. there has been a long history of its coming real soon. >> thank you. the ncaa also doesn't want these young people to be able to make a living a little bit that they can as well. that was around then the whole scandal happened at ohio state about the kid selling their own shirts. the shirts they take off their backs they can't sell them by while go to that one. i would like to ask mr. starr and mr. muir what are your football and basketball coaches making? >> i don't have a number of the top of my head.
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it is substantial. it's a free market so we want to keep our coaches. i can get those for you. >> would you please? >> i'm not at liberty to share the numbers. >> is it a secret? >> is just something we don't share at stanford but by the same token. >> up to living and want to ask. >> another answer for baylor. the coach made in 2011, 2.4 million scott drew made 2.1 million in the women's basketball coach made 1.3 million. at stanford the numbers aren't published but in the one year that jim harbaugh rose above surgeons with a top five employees made a little over $1 million. >> thank you very much. mr. starr you said earlier the goal of attending a college or university is to obtain a degree and i would assume you would agree on that point. you also realize for division i football athletes and men's basketball players their
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graduation rates across-the-board hover around 50%? >> at alar it's higher. at baylor at 62% for a men's basketball team that i could not agree more ms. fudge, we need to create a specially and men's basketball but to a considerable degree in football as well this culture of student athlete. it begins with the head coach but the entire infrastructure has to be oriented toward that. at the same time these are young men and young women who are making their own choices. they decide what's important for them. all we can do is create a culture of encouragement and of genuine support. >> thank you very much. my time is gone. i will yields back mr. chairman. >> i think the gentlelady. dr. bucshon you are recognized. >> thank you very much. anyone can answer this question. do athletic scholarships give
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potential academic opportunities to students who otherwise would not have them available to them because of sheerly based on their ability to play a sport? mr. muir? >> i would say the opportunity to attend an institution like stanford to be afforded the opportunity to compete at the highest level as well as getting a quality education we have 5% admitted this past year, 40,000 applications so 2% young people can opportunity to come and compete at stanford it's a wonderful experience and our kids as soon as they get in the door they understand that opportunity great as i said with a high graduation rate they understand they are part of the fabric of the place. >> there's an opportunity for our first-generation college attendees so it is a door opener. it has been historically. i believe the ncaa has approximately 15% of student athletes who receive scholarships are first-generation.
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no one has attended college on their family so it's a great part of the american story. >> thank you. i have a brief comment. i think we all here today people testifying in members on both sides know there are substantial issues we are discussing today and i'm hopeful this discussion will continue and make things better for and improvements to our college athletic system so that young people across the country can continue to compete but also as many of you have outlined more importantly have access to an educational experience that helps them in their future careers and down the line so with that i yield back. >> the gentleman yields back. ms. bonamici. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. it's a very interesting hearing and i appreciate the expertise of all the witnesses here today. mr. eilers?
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did i say her name correctly? you talked about how the debate should be about what's the best way to address the goal and i really appreciate that. i know that some of my colleagues have mentioned the importance of addressing the goals of the college athletes have set out. i was reading an editorial that came out after the retail director's opinion that said the college sports establishment has brought this trouble on itself by not moving to address players legitimate grievances. obviously the regional director found some differences between what northwestern is doing and what you described in your experience and of course mr. muir and judge starr. i wanted to ask a quick question. i know mr. eilers you have an mba from calyx school that you are not here representing northwestern. mr. livingstone do you happen to represent northwestern? >> i do not. >> i was just curious about that because we have heard different experiences here and different facts about your colleges like
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mr. muir at stanford is doing. what we are talking about is a decision specific to northwestern and one of the things that the regional director found was that the scholarship players are identified and recruited in the first instance because of their football prowess and not because of academic achievement in high school. is that similar? mr. muir you are shaking your head no. is that different from your experience at stanford? >> that is definitely different. in thinking about what our coaches do to identify people to potentially come to stanford. the first process they have to go through is making sure they can pass admissions and make sure that they can enter school just like they general student. we are weeding out individuals because they don't have the academic record. it doesn't matter what the athletic, which meant sar if they are not able to in order to meet the needs of ensuring a
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good education that's not going to happen. >> always try to figure out from reading part of the regional directors opinion what happens if a class in scholarship player wants to take because of his major or i should say his or her major because maybe this could be expanded to women's sports as well come to what happens if that class conflicts with practice? what does the college due? >> when when i attend when i attend a practice sends icier student athletes practicing getting ready for competition there's many a time rival see a football student walk off the field because they are attending a lab or attending a class. that comes first. >> they are not penalized for that? they are permitted to do that? was that your experience too mr. eilers? >> there are sacrifices made. i took organic chemistry one summer between my sophomore and my junior year because of that
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fact and trying to take the labs. i would only submit one additional item which is i think what stanford has done is incredible in football and what they do on the academic front accomplishing both. there was a brief moment in time before we ran into an unfortunate game against alabama in the national championship. i was most proud of notre dame having the highest graduation rate for the football players as well as briefly being ranked number one in the country. so you can do both. speeds interesting because the regional director i believe found at northwestern has a 97% graduation rate for its players which seems to be pretty high. i wanted to ask also what happens during the recruitment process because i mentioned with the finding was about northwestern that they were recruited as if their football prowess but what happens during that recruitment process? how are the prospective athletes made aware that all of the
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opportunities that are available to them, how did they decide what they are considering during that consideration process? who informs him whether they will lose the scholarship if they don't stay on the team? mr. muir and may be judged starr you can respond this will. >> first of all in terms of the recruitment process i have personally seen what that process looks like and it includes a very thorough introduction to here is the academic support. they will meet people from the academic support staff. they will see is their diagnostic test done by the university. in terms of any learning disability. there is a holistic introduction to a university as a whole including the academic side and usually the parents or parent or loved one is there with the prospective student athlete. >> my time has expired. i yield back. >> i think the gentlelady.
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mr. rokita. >> i think the gentlemen for your testimony today. you know i think from what i heard judge starr essie would being a former judge kind of really clarify the issue and that is are we going to use the nlra as a vehicle for the improvements that you have all talked about today? i suspect no. i can imagine the authors of the law to cover the situation but let's poke around with it. let's explore a little bit. mr. livingstone if the students were to strike or the athletics department or university were to walk the players out like you have the steel mill let's say during the collective bargaining process with the students be able to attend class? >> the only experience we have in professional sports where the entire league typically goes on strike or is locked out.
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>> professional sports. >> in college because we don't have it. >> for the college you have classes. >> would they have to vacate their dorms? would they have to leave class of? those are unanswered questions. >> certainly the law or the regulations or anything else. northwestern is than the big 10 conference as you know along with two schools in indiana won one in perdue in my district. let's say that northwestern students athletes were to unionize and proceed to either strike or be locked out. how would that affect the rest of the conference? using your knowledge. >> not being at northwestern i don't know if it's appropriate for me to jump on that. >> i said using your experience and knowledge what you think would happen? how do you feel? >> would be difficult to continue to schedule and continue to have competition.
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>> at stanford were in a similar situation what would be the affects? >> if that was the case stanford might not opt to continue to compete at the level we are currently competing at. >> kind of two dr. roe's point that he made earlier. my district also has st. joseph's college which i'm proud to be a board member of. it's a division ii school. if i understand right you can share scholarships at that level between students and our there are limited funds. again experiencing looking into your crystal ball will be the effective division ii students with regard to this? >> again i'm not a legal expert but if this were -- of the students at wanted to unionize it would affect whether institutions can continue to have these offerings which is part of the fabric of higher education. intercollegiate athletic so that would be a shame if that all of a sudden changed very at. >> these questions and your
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answers continue to bring clarity to me that i don't think those laws even attended -- intended. >> mad at something? we are talking about scholarships as a finite limit. the union would be able to bargain about the number and of course the value so scholarships scholarships -- have scholarships versus full scholarships are organ by the nlra. >> thank you. judge starr coming to you we often talk on this committee and in businesses across the nation and the union halls about the cost of unionization. the cost of bargaining and the cost of dues etc. whether or not a union member should have to pay dues voluntarily or not have a choice in that. what do you think in your experience would be the cost of unionization for the employer and the employee's? can you estimate the cost of student athletes unionizing at baylor for example? >> we have not punched through
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the numbers enough to even come up with a reasonable estimate. what we do know is the whole idea of collective bargaining is in fact to increase the whole reservoir of duly agreed-upon commitments by the employer. so i think part of the question is what can we do outside the collective bargaining which has never been contemplated before. that's the ultimate policy question is seems to me that you have rightly focused on. the unionization process is just raising a whole host of russians that we can't answer today but we do know costs will in fact go up including issues than with respect to how is that student going to be treated as an employee in terms of taxation medicare and the like? >> thank you enough for segue to my last question for you judge starr. considering that the world is a jury watching today people might get the impression that the
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acknowledgments and improvements that need to be made is in and knowledge meant that someone was caught or this just started as a reaction to this recent decision. can you give us evidence otherwise in your testimony? >> yes. >> i'm sorry judge. the gentleman's time has expired. mr. scott reid. >> thank you mr. chairman. mr. schwarz in many cases the scholarship requires you to play in most cases? >> my understanding is until 2011 the ncaa mandated the scholarship could only be for one year whether schools wanted to give one or not. if we stop playing during the course of that year you are allowed to continue for that year. afterwards the scholarship would not be renewed. the current deal. >> some colleges to get a scholarship and you can continue with the scholarship would be a play or not.
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isn't that right? if you have a needs-based scholarship. >> features not to play football the schools have the option to terminate the four year deal at the end of that year. >> you indicated the number of hours that had to be committed. is an athlete required to comply with that schedule? >> in the nlrb hearing i have heard mark say similar things. about half that off-season. >> guinness student before the ruling could a student be an employee of the college if they were to the library or something like that? >> the stanford daily editor-in-chief i think makes $45,000. >> in that case is the status of a student does that affect the student of an employee?
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>> students employees are mutually exclusive concepts. >> and the part-time job could be in essential part of financial aid package. you get a certain amount of a scholarship in a certain loan and we will make sure you get a part-time job in the library. >> at sunlight if you quit your job at the library you would lose the rest of your scholarship. >> i think that's right. there are lots of ways that students outside of sports can be compensated. at stanford there was a class that required students to sell an app on facebook and to commercialize it was part of the requirements of the class and they got credit for doing that rather than losing. >> is it possible that some student athletes require -- would qualify as employees under this ruling and others not qualify? >> my understanding is the ruling applies only to ask a yes vote el-adly to receive a scholarship.
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>> now, what would the difference be for those -- i mean if you have a scholarship and a couple of hours a week like swimming but doesn't have the time commitment is the possibly could be a student athlete and not an employee? >> it's a term of our design to dodge legal agreements. if you say college athlete i think college athletes if they go to college and play sports. >> and it's possible that someone qualified as employees and some would not. >> i think that's right. >> of the college were to avoid the union problem they could treat them like college students and not like employees. is that right? >> i'm not sure if i fully understand. >> i mean if you get a scholarship for the chess club or something or band and are not required to put in these kinds of hours i think you would be a
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college athlete. >> that's right in the reverse is true. right now the chess team has more rights because the chess team can say i want a college scholarship the covers more than just the athletic scholarship. they have the right to bargain back foot all athletes don't. >> is possible under this ruling that someone qualified as employees and others would not. >> i think that's correct. >> mr. eilers you indicated the issues of the right to scholarship medical treatment, that the right to minimize brain trauma and other situations like that a union could engage these issues. if it's not the union who would be in a position in a bargaining position to engage these issues and have the resources to do the research and make a presentation on behalf of the athlete's?
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>> mr. scott as i said in my testimony i don't have the a solution. to me it should read the ncaa and the member institutions and it's clear and just to clarify on what i think are some misconceptions schools operate differently. at notre dame there's a specific instance of a scholarship athlete playing football who decided after his sophomore year not to play football anymore. we honored his scholarship. he graduated with a degree in four years from the university of notre dame. there may be other schools operate differently. are walk ons were treated just like scholarship athletes. maybe at ohio state they warned. so there needs to be an elevation across all i think only did sports to make sure that we are delivering for the student. >> the gentleman's time has expired. mrs. brooks. >> thank you and thank you all for your testimony. i am the daughter of a high school college -- high school
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football coach and the mother of the t-1 soccer graduate from the university who suffered a serious concussion in high school in the last game of her high school career. after wonderful medical treatment and proper healing she went on to play for years of d1 soccer. now many parents and people who are helping these athletes get scholarships which they all worked so very hard in their lives to achieve those scholarships compound parents advocate for these young people. the students advocate. the student athlete advisory committee of the ncaa advocates. i would assume the president of the university's and representatives of each of the conferences that represent the ncaa on their board are advocates for these athletes and i would submit that there are
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many avenues to rectify the problems and there are continued problems for college athletes. but these athletes make these choices as to which schools to attend. one thing we haven't talked about enough is the role of the coaches in all of this process. and the coaches who are employees of the university who report to the athletic directors who report to the college presidents who report to the board of trustees, what mechanisms are there in your universities for the students to voice their concerns with the coaches and the coaches to voice their concerns to the ministries in? i will start with you judge starr. >> is frequently the case that where there is a student athletic council so these are student athletes themselves who have come together. they are elected by their fellow student athletes so they have direct access to the athletic director. they can also communicate with someone who we haven't talked
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about and that's the faculty athletic representative who is to infect bring an academic perspective to bear in terms of the entire athletic program including reviewing specific cases. you're absolutely right there are numerous avenues for voices to be heard. the ncaa the final thing i would say the ncaa itself however believes in its governance historically it has not done well in terms of assuring the student athlete foists voice. so there are reforms underway that i think will be adopted that will in fact better ensure the student athlete art fair and and -- >> thank you. mr. muir? >> we have an number of opportunities to hear from our student athletes from our coaches. the student athlete counsel at stanford the cardinal consul. i just met with him two weeks ago and it was a chance for me to check in and hear their concerns and how we don't and we survey all of our student athletes after every season.
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we provide feedback. they can do it anonymously and we have information on just how there experiences going and also the coaches have an open door policy. they look for that one we select our coaches in the proper leadership. we think we have one of the largest leadership development programs on our campus so that's another opportunity for student athletes to engage. we have administrators. we have counselors and tutors all all on united front to make sure their experience is the best it can possibly be. >> is it fair to say that your coaches in part are judged on their successes on the graduation rates of their athletes? >> we look at a number of things and we are opposite looking at the graduation rates and what they are doing in the classroom and what they are doing to make sure they are solids did -- citizens in the part of the university fabric. >> i know there is always tension when student athletes have to leave and may miss classes or tests or labs and so forth but as judge starr
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indicated they are faculty representatives and there has to be that relationship of the faculty and the elf but it parp meant -- department. ..
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>> no, as i said the issue of cost of attendance stipens has been around since the ncaa took them away. >> i agree there are lots of advocates out there but they are not very effective right? >> it is a one-sided discussion. >> there was a comment played the college athletes have choices. what would you say to that?
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>> i am advocating for a free market opportunity. they don't have choice over the full package they receive because the schools fix the prices and everyone offers the same thing and it limits choice. >> the ncaa has $3.2 in revenue and they can make all decisions to make sure it doesn't go up but cannot address five issues except to say it is coming soon. >> the idea this is a money loosing industry it is incredible. you would not see rising pay, firms flocking to enter the industry. 19 schools are entered and none left. you would not see bonuses for 10: 1 for sports results instead
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of academics. the money is in the system it is just being denied into the primary generators. >> you made another point. you said money is being funneled to coaches instead of to the male athlete and some coaches make $7 million. when the money is going to coaches in lieu of financial aid it puts a cap on that and female athletes get the title nine. >> that is why male coaches can make so much more. it applies to financial aid provided to students and if the aid is capped, which it is, a lifting would result in equating pays: so the cap on women is a gap on men as well. >> i will quote you. amount of financial aid must be
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in the same proportion for the rate of females and males. but when i look at the department of education, it shows baylor spending 55 cents for every all on men but 44 on women. the department of education is saying there is a disparity of one percentage point you have explaining to do. so explain the differences on the dollars between men and women at baylor. >> that is a dynamic and fluid process that may change from year to year. if there is a disparity it has to be addressed. we have to come forward with explanations as to why there maybe a temporary disparity.
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we created two new women's sports with scholarships. we have created equestrian and acrobatics and tumbling. >> you believe this is a temporary issue? this isn't a year to year thing? are you saying with knowledge or just guessing? >> i don't know the specifics of that disparity so that is information to me. i know the atletic department does have to focus on this. with the title 9 compliance officer who reviews these issues to determine -- >> i am just disturbed that the nba is the answer to these that ought to be address and that is wait for the next decade and on the title nine questions you are saying you are working on it. i think we should all be concerned.
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>> i have the same frustration. and that is why i am here today. i would like to see this implemented. when i was a student athlete at notre dame trying to open up against michigan and preparing for class and i could not think about threatening to strike or getting to the morning of the football room and not leaving the locker room because the demands are not being meltism i don't think the student needs that burden. but we have to get there. >> they need to take drastic action to get the conversation started. i think we ought to acknowledge that. >> the gentlemen's time has expired. mr. wallberg. >> i didn't participate in a revenue sport. i was in an olympic sport but wrestling and it was the best
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training for life i ever had and did it out of the joy of sport and made it by choice and suffered four shoulder surgeries as a result of that in later years but i look back and i would do it all over again. i appreciate the aspect there has to be care taken for our athletes. and i respect what you have said about your concerns on that. in your testimony, you state stanford has taken steps to cover medical cost for injuries, promote safety, and research prevention and effects of concussion. can you elaborate on those steps and are they consistent with ncaa rules? >> they are consistent with ncaa rules. we have our stanford medical team doing a cstudy and we cannt
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say here is how we prevent it from happening but they are observing this. they have pieces in the students mouth that track where the blows come from. it is an on-going study. the student welfare of the athletes is something we hold close and dear and it is important we try to enhance those things as we move forward. >> do the student athletes understand this? are they made aware of opportunities, consideration, programs? >> they are testing -- they are the ones wearing the mouth pieces and getting educates on the risks that are involved and what the research we are trying to do and there is obviously great discussion about what the future hold and so that is something they engage in and i think it has been worthwhile to
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have the leadership role. >> you state stanford takes steps to support medical scholarships for students disqualified. what are those steps? >> we have three athletes that were awarded scholarship because they were not able to continue their senior year. we honored the scholarships and look forward to them contributing once they are healthy. and we have other students who were hurt but we honor their scholarships. we are hear to make sure they get their degree and we will do everything to make sure it happens. >> what about baylor? >> same policy in place. we care for the student athletes if they are injured and the scholarship continues and we believe we have the moral obligation with an injury sustained in football ever n
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post-graduation. >> notre dame as far as you know? >> as far as i know, notre dame is consistent with the other testimony. >> mr. murr, i would like you to comment here. this year it appears the ncaa will revisit the stipened issue. we have talked about that. what is the major concern with the stipend issue from your rer spective? >> the major issue is that each institution is trying to pay up to the cost of attendance. for each institution that cost is different and trying to figure out the exact number where we can try to be equitable. and the resources necessary to provide that is another thing.
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not all schools are able to meet the cost of attendance and it is a concern for them. or they will have to make other decisions and that is a difficult one and that is why we spent many years trying to figure it out. we are closer and need to enhance the experience of the students but it difficult from school to school since so few a truly making revenue and they are able to far exceed their expenses with revenue it makes it hard and difficult. i think we are making progress but it will take more time >> and i would tell you i was -- my parents, i was lucky they were able to give me out of pocket expense money when i was an scholarship at notre dame. my little brother was there, two years younger man me, and he was with a college all-american and i played with him on the chicago
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bears. he had no out of pocket money and it came down to people. his teammates and his mentors to make sure we could go to dinner with us and do laundry and i think that is wrong. >> i was wrestling at chicago vo-tech. >> time expired. >> i am the former chancellor for the post-second education in the state of alabama and i am a former lawyer who recognized committees on the act a number of cases. i have dealt with this issue both ways. our two year colleges, which is the department we deal with, does have athletic programs.
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in fact, we had a golfer named bubba watson. we are very proud of him. but we are proud of all of the athletes and the vast majority will never do what bubba does but we hope they come to us and get a good education. now, you know, when we are dealing with students and that environment, they bring their life issues with them. they may be students and athletes, but they are young people and they have life issues and we have coaches and counselors that deal with them on stuff that happens on the field and stuff that happens off the field. you cannot take them apart. they just come together like that. and i guess what bothers me about the issue and i want to share the concerns i have heard about the ncaa and i think that is a separate issue and we are using the wrong tool to get at
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the ncaa issues. what concerns me is if students organize and we have to deal with a union representative instead of the student what does that do to the obligation, responsibility, and i know you feel it from your instew -- institutions -- to deal with the life issues and the stuff not on the field? what does it do to that? >> i think it would be disruptive. i think you are right. the relationship is individual. it isn't just the coach and coaching staff. it the entire battery of support services like the tutors, and the faculty members and the representative to the student athletic counselors. at baylor we have the chaplain as well.
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so there is a spiritual aspect. so trying to set everything into a labor law issues with terms and conditions seems to be very artificial and arbitrary and not serving the ultimate interest of the individual student athlete. >> mr. murr do you have an advantage point on that? >> i think about the relationships we build with young people. we start early in sophomore and junior year of high school and obviously when they are seniors. and that carries through. we want them having a relationship with us once they graduate and have the degree. that relationship is important. and we have students with other issues that need to be dealt with in coping and manage but they feel open and they are able to come to someone here in the university setting whether that is at a faculty member, coach, or administrator and that is the
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beauty of the college environment and important for us to keep in mind as we move forward. as we noted, there is many issues that need to be addressed and i think we will work our way to gets those done. it is always evolving. >> i would ask this question to the two legal council. you heard the advantage point of dealing with the athletes that goes far beyond the athletic work, if you call it work. is the nrla the right tool to deal with the issues that people seem to have with the ncaa -- and ncaa doesn't have anything to do with the two-year colleges, so if we create a bigger definition of employee, it is going to affect a lot of people, not just people governored by the ncaa. so is this the right tool? >> that is a great question and
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why i don't think it applies. everybody has certain right and based on recent decisions this would violate them. the coach requires the players to be a facebook friend. the schools monitor facebook friends and prohibit interviews and that violates the right of any employee whether in a union or not. so at all 17 schools the framework already violates that. it isn't the proper tool. >> gentlemen's time expired. we are on closing remarks so i will yield to mr. miller. >> thank you very much chairman. i think this is a very important hearing. you know, america is in the throes of celebrating on a daily
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bases socially and economically in every way possible entrepreneurs and those who take risks. the least of grievances these players presented is one they could have presented 5-10 years ago across the college student but they have not been addressed. these players are put on the position of being the edge, scholarship, no scholarship, play don't play, classes no classess. that is an interesting place to keep the employees you care about. i think they would play better with more certainty in their life. but the ncaa doesn't let you do that. you know you are not typical across the board of high stakes
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football in the country. and we know the athletes are not typical. you are graduating people but we have clusters that go to athletes for concern reasons go to class that are not applying to their degree about they are short so they go. that is why the night commission was set-up; to look at the landscape. no easy critics out of the industry. but the fact of the matter is that this landscape has changed dramatically. i have been in congress long enough to know when i see tough issues on academic side, you don't meet the college president, you meet the college coach. and we know that the education journal, sports journals, shows, a constantly debating who is the
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most powerful person on campus? the president or the coach. we know all hell can be paid for the mishandling or firing of a coach. these concerns that these young men were willing to take the risk on exist on every campus whether or not you have the security of a scholarship for how long. whether or not you will have health insurance. what is going to happen if you lose your scholarship. stipends and transfers. we have been over this. i held the first concussion hearings, i think. this isn't proper for public discussion. this is a sport. this is volunteers. people play. until they started seeing the extent and damage done. i worked with many nfl coaches
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and many nfl players. we could not get to first base. i had coaches telling me documents are here, we know what has taken place. and then the players association went the court and the rest is history. that is just the beginning. the fact of the matter is the determination was made it was better to run the organization in a way the owners wanted to run it than deal with the information. it is changing the way tv portrays it. they don't rerun the big hits because the audience knows that is a damaging hit and there is a consequence to that. but before that was a highlight. highlights are now a liability. so we can have all of the cradles about what could happen if there was unionization. why don't you think about what
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would happen if you took care of the program and if the schools got back in control? i understand there has to be rules and regulations but we see arbitrary decisions by the nc2a. why are students who had nothing to do with infractions loosing the right to play? if you think you are going to the nba or nfl and you cannot get into the finals so people can't focus on your performance? that is a huge discouragement. they want to show they were tough on the students who were not there when the infraction took place. there is a lot to think about on the campuses. we talk about higher ed a lot and i think you are here because you are leaders in this field.
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you are not immune from this. this is the list of easy classed that everybody said wasn't existing? they major in eligibility. i guess the senate is going to hear on north carolina. there you are. s you know we have been through these scandals before. like the nba and the nfl, you better address the problem. this is college sports. not nc2a. it is college sports. i appreciate and stood on the sidelines and i was so proud there. happened to be with a big donor of usc and notre dame. most exciting moment in my life
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and never knew it could be that exciting. i played a lot of football but never on that level. they are student athletes. i don't think you treat the other students like this on campus. you know? i think somebody better take control of the situation again. and in most of the journals i read, the president is loosing in this war against the coaches for the say in the standards on campus. this is like that cab in compton, california. it is always coming, but never arrives. the ncaa can't make decisions so we get arbitrary actions against the institution and students and now sometimes against the coach now and then. there is a lot to think about. i have been here 40 years. i have watched a lot of people deny the problems and go after
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the symptom which is a decision to join the union. a rational decision by these young people. there is no other outlet for them. i would not be so concerned about whether or not they are not going to go on the field on weekend. that is not the make-up of the young men. i remember talking to bobby night when the networks decided they needed a mid-week game and now we have it depending on the conference and depends on how many days of school you miss. you can keep defending it. i would work on changing it. thank you very much, mr. chairman for the hearing. >> i want to thank the gentlemen and the witnesses. i appreciate everything you had to offer. quite a diversity and experiences and positions in. somebody who was a top-level
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college athlete and went on to play in the nfl and has very strong fieldings and opinions about these issues and has pointed out eloquently we have problems out there that need to be addressed. what brought this hearing together was the actions of a regional director of the national labor relation board who suggested the athletes are employees and therefore could, if they chose, vote to join a union. so we explored some of the possible downsides of that issue and we heard from witnesses here that talked about how would this deal with class attendance and practice times, attending games, how many games, what about walk-on players, what about universities who are public and don't fall in the nation's labor act and host of potential
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problems. i appreciate the testimony of the witnesses today as we start to explore that. i don't think there is a person on the committee that doesn't agree we need to address the issues we talked about. the question is is unionization of some sports, some players and some schools the appropriate tool to get to that end? think i have been clear to say i don't think it is. and we need to then focus on, i think, all of us perhaps in congress and certainly those of you in the field as it were, as athletic directors and college presidents and those concerned to do the sorts of things mr. miller was talking about. we should address the issues, but i don't believe that
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spuradic unionization -- i think it is the wrong law and tool to use here. okay? there being no further business the committee is adjourned. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]
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>> a house hearing on local marijuana laws. then a hearing on tracking space debris to prevent collisions in orbit. and later, congressman delaney on the highway trust fund and then a talk on employment benefits. washington, d.c. has vote today decriminalize small amounts of marijuana. the law must be approved by congress before going to the effect. a hearing was held on the proposal. this is just under two hours.

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