largest demonstration against drones dropping bombs on innocent civilians in the name of the american people, it was a magnificent patriotic witness based on this notion of honor, we are dishonored whenever 200 children have been killed in the name of the u.s. government chasing terrorists but they are collateral damage. ..

>> i think the question is for you. [laughter] >> which one was it for? >> i don't honestly know. sounds like something he would have said. if you missed not just the fight against white supremacy but how it is shaped so much the modern world and our economy and nation say, so forth, others have allowed us to see just how deep it cuts. and dubois of course was part of that. >> he said many times in many context that the problem is the problem of the color line. that is using you don't understand the 20th century. there are things you can understand and i suppose --

>> a lot of blues in beethoven. >> but in general as you try to understand the social world, it just seems to me it's sort of a nonstarter, and the sentry i was looking. now, one should say that, you know, there are moves forward, steps forward and steps backwards but clearly it isn't bending the word justice. i think it is getting better over the long haul and they get worse in various ways. >> dubois also had this in mind, a question have been wrestling with all of his life, how does integrity face oppression? how does decency face insult? how does virtue -- you want to

see some of the greatest examples of integrity, honesty, decency and virtue, the black freedom movement, frederick douglass, martin king, curtis mayfield. unbelievable integrity, honesty, virtue in the face of brute force, deception. black people don't have a monopoly on the special to keep track of integrity, keep track on the best negroes in the country. because they're going through some hell and they still love it. they been handed in intense ways and they still have a smile on the face and they love it. that's also what he had in mind. that's another reason we don't want to lose the positive effect of the difference. a world with no jazz, no rhythm and blues, no emotions, no main ingredient, no whispers. i would've been in saint a long

time ago without luther, you know? so the positive effects that these people who are never achieving that integrity, and it's open to everybody. but brother, you've been very patient. >> first of all, you recognize i have different pronunciation. i spent 45 years of my life in poland, communist country. only racist was totally unknown factor. we had different problems. now, my question is what do you think, most important factor to get rid of racism, not only here but all the world? money for education? one of two choices, thank you. >> wonderful question. powerful question.

>> so i really think that the key thing is co-habitation, doing things together. doing significant things together. if you've done significant things together in groups of black and white and and gentile and -- jew and gentile, it's hard to hold onto bigotry special when you do it when you're young. no amount of preaching at people as a substitute to bring them together to do significant things together. so i suppose i'm abdicating things that cost a bit of money but it isn't education if by education you mean the transition of propositional knowledge. it's about habits of living together, which our segregated

world make very difficult. and if you live with a kind of person represented in your everyday life and to depend on them and you're doing things together, it's very hard -- it's not impossible because i just describe something that's like the situation of many of the jews of germany in the 1920s but, so things can go backwards. but i think that a background, a world in which we are constantly striving to engage in significant activities across all the boundaries that are dividing us, that is a world in which not just racism but all kinds of bigotry will be harder to sustain. look, the most obvious example of this in recent times in our country has been the consequence of large-scale coming out of lesbian and gay people.

you al on the lesbian and gay people now. 30 years ago many of you wouldn't have, and it's not hard to go home thinking to people evidently loved each other whom you know shouldn't get married. it's very easy to think that about two people over there, about whom all of you know is there engaged in a form of sexuality that disgusts you. so i think we've seen it happen before our eyes and a much faster rate than i myself was anticipating, and i think one of the things we face as a country, this country, is we are a country of segregated experiences. and that means -- by the way, what i'm saying is just classic gordon -- in case anybody is wondering. it's not me. this is just a piece of routine psychology i think. i think we opted to get more

safely than we do so that the fact that people sometimes say that the fact of the forms of segregation we have no our voluntary which i think that's a bit of an exaggeration. >> residential, schooling. >> even if that were the result that choices people make, they're having a very bad effect and we got to think about whether we collectively can do things to stop them, stop that matter of fact. now, of course, there are costs. >> yes, absolutely. >> costs to losing black space. but it think they are worth paying because in the end, that you think is a strength this is a topic of which dubois thought a great deal and i think he started out thinking, which is why in the early part of the 20th century he started on the project -- [inaudible] he started out thinking that

bigotry was a question of ignorance. so the solution was knowledge. may be knowledge helps, but it's not, because bigotry is the result of anything, it will not be solved by knowledge. no objections, organizing knowledge about people but i don't think there are substitutes for the social experience of co-habitation which is i believe a basis for getting rid of racism. >> i want to add to that quickly just in terms of the sharing of power. from our own limited vantage point i think that the fundamental problem of poor people in general, black and brown, red people in particular, there's too much poverty and not enough self-love. and you only respond by the sharing of power because it's

privilege, and power at the top, the conclusion that dubois reached once he reached a point of view, he read karl marx, always the poco fire through which one must pass. not a question of agreeing or disagreeing. you've got to engage the role of oligarchs, political ads, corporations, big banks, profit-making. that's the kind of society we live in. that's what a karl marx was talking about. you might reject his conclusion that he's talking about how can we reach a point where everyday people share power as opposed to being dominated? this is true for women, it's true for gays and lesbians, transgender and so forth, but it's certainly true for black and brown and red. said issued a money and education, absolutely important,

but how do you think of sharing power? you can have all the money and education in the world and still reproduce irt. -- hierarchy. the question is how does that money and education, how do you deploy it in such a way that it provides democratic access. i think that's part of dubois great vision as the radical democrat even though he was too silent when it came to the communist world. i'm glad that you point that out because it's silent in terms of -- go ahead. >> thank you very much to both of you, and my question is for both of you. something i've been troubled by what i feel like i've been seeing a lot of in united states. that's fetishized of mixed race identity. not just a simple fact that it exists and yes, but sort of

emblematic of our progress and the path towards our progress. taking the context of theory and sort of exploding it. part of my concern is that i come from a latin american paradigm of race where the use of multiracial, have an operation of white supremacy. so i can see that that informs my concern. and so i was wondering if both of you could reflect on, if you're perceiving this as well and what insight you might share about how can we cynically and otherwise -- sickly and otherwise resisted. to love and form families they want to form, not necessarily will them interracial but that we respect all families in whatever forms a should be come together in, but at the same

time not use for this next race is something so exceptional and better than mono racial is a term i've seen used. >> well, that's a great question. spinning you mean a scribe magical powers to it? >> and the superiority to it that there's an inherent of racial knowledge that is very powerful. >> look, i think from the point of view dubois analysis, once you see how the racial categories have been produced, that thought, because the thought somehow we got black essence and white essence and now we have a brown essence.

this is all preposterous. so yes, it's a fact that it is a sign of a change in our world that you see more visibly white and visibly nonwhite people in public space behaving as couples, whether it's pushing or -- this is a sign of something good. and the fact that in many places they would have been locked up as a lot more, is one of the -- it's a great thing to be removed. but it isn't as if when that happens what is produced is necessarily enjoyed into the. you have to decide to turn this into your -- you can't do it on your own. the couple can't by themselves declare themselves to be

multiracial republicans. so we have to decide whether we think that the proliferation, sort of louisiana 1900, is this a helpful thing to do? i say my own view is it is not. i was actually against adding multiracial incentives because i didn't know what the point of it was. the census is a government instrument which is used to collect statistics that are useful for the government service. i don't know what the point is of keeping track of the number of people identify a small show -- multiracial. has nothing to do with no uniform explanation. whereas i do want to know whether in a liver market where 30% of the people are black, 30% of the people are getting the jobs. i think that's why the government should be interested

in that. it's fine for -- i know what happens. here's what happened. and it's a perfectly decent thing. kids said i don't have to choose between my mother and my father in deciding what and. i want to be able to claim them both. and the parents wanted them to be able to claim. that's fine. but we don't need a new social category. all we need to do is have the idea that you can play more than one identity and that's why dubois central ideas but that idea has been available since the late 19th century in the works of dubois. >> absolutely. what i would say, i speak as a christian. i want to see the flowering of forms of love of self and love of neighbors in a variety of different ways, across different

boundaries and borders. its that the human level. i think our problem in this country is that we still have the white normative days as the standard. before that we see couple walking down the street and it's a black and white couple and then another couple is black and black. somehow we get more excited about the black and white because all my god, that's just a wonderful. isn't that a blessing? i thought it was wonderful. that's love. it's got the same status. see what it means? but the problem is that white normative gays will put more value on the interracial. human human all the way down. not only that but then this notion like the mulatto -- i don't like the term -- let's say these human beings who are a result of this relationship, an open and loving relationship and, therefore, the provide a child, a precious child.

usually that mulatto is associate with being highly successful, and that's not true. this book to her is providing 150 books. i know i'm embarrassing you but it is the truth. free books in the class is always available on friday night. but in prison industry, mainly chocolate, chocolate brothers, but they have some mulatto's in there, too. it's like the only mulatto's in the white house. no, that's not true. that's not true. they are in poor schools in the hoods, with guns and drugs and so forth. it's a human thing with all of the other structures of domination operating. so if we can reach the boy, this is how in brazil and other places they've used multiracial

democracy as a way of reproducing white supremacy because the whites normative gays even in brazil with all those beautiful black and brown people, african people. so that's the beginning of intention to your question. we will now go by my brother's book. that's what we're going to do now. [applause] >> thank you. thank you. [applause] >> several live instantly about this morning their president obama will deliver the commencement address at the u.s. military academy at west point, new york. you can see that on c-span at 10 a.m. eastern and join the conversation about the president's foreign policy on facebook and twitter.

here on c-span2 at 10:30 a.m. the vice chairman of the armed services committee, republican representative mac thornberry of texas will be at the heritage foundation to talk about defense policy are bent on c-span3 george washington university's cybersecurity initiative pulls the chair and ranking member of the house intelligence committee. represent is michael rogers of michigan and dutch ruppersberger of maryland at 11 a.m. eastern. >> one of the stories that resonated with me was the moment when they are dithering about whether or not they need to inject sea water into unit one. and it's a matter of, the clock is ticking and there are just about down to the wire.

and the plant superintendent, who in the end would have to make the final call, knows it's desperate. they need to get water in there very quickly. and meanwhile, everybody wants a say, and the officials and japanese government officials are all just kind of hemming and hawing. and the supervisor gets an order from one of his supervisors at tepco that the government hasn't signed off on yet and jus yes to both. he's already started, and so he basically calls one of his staff people over and says okay, i'm going to give in order but ignored. so he very loudly proclaim so ever in tokyo kinnear community, hope the seawater injection when, in fact, they didn't. to me that was that was the human element in the story in which come in japan where ignoring the rules and kind of

acting on your own is not rewarded. it was a moment where a guy new that if he didn't act, things we do even worse than they were going. >> more about the tsunami and resulting meltdown at the fukushima nuclear power plant saturday night at 10 eastern on "after words," part of booktv this weekend on c-span2. >> now, author ben tarnoff on mark twain's life in san francisco in the 1860s and his relationship with a group of writers known as the bikini is. from city lights bookstore in san francisco, this is 45 minutes. >> i think we are ready to start. my name is peter because like to welcome you all to see to let's. were delighted with his ben tarnoff, a native son of san francisco returned with a new book, "the bohemians: mark twain and the san francisco writers who reinvented american

literature." this is a densely layered highly nuanced portrait of san francisco literary scene of the late 1800s. we follow the lives of mark twain, charles warren stoddard, live a a permanent mark on the later recanted. his portrait beautifully captures the complexity of the relationship between the writers and offers a valuable look at post-civil war west coast and provides the kind of perfect medium for the development of bohemia. double he means is a rich steeped in history that kind of unwinds many different threads. of other writers and the city that helped host the exploits. ben is the author of another book, the counterfeiters paradise, which is published by penguin press, and his writing have also appeared in the "san francisco chronicle" and he's

also worked at the quarterly. it's a real delight and pleasure to have them with us. welcome, ben tarnoff. [applause] >> thank you for that introduction and thank you all for coming out tonight. i should tell you a little bit of the flu so forget warm and my voice gets a little foggy you will have to forgive me. mark twain action when he was here in the 1860s in san francisco wrote a very funny sketch called how to cure a cold. one of the recommended cures was to rub mustard all over your naked just. so if things get to the point i might send someone out for mustard. this is my book, "the bohemians," and it tells the story of four young writers and services but in the 1860s. they were mark twain, bret hart, charles warren stoddard. mark twain is really at the center of the story. and one of the things i've really loved about this project is that it gave me access to kind of an under known part of

mark twain's life. i think when we think of mark twain we think of them in in the white suit chomping on a cigar with the white hair, a grandfatherly façade. that's the twain of the last decade with this kind of best work behind them in his 50s -- '60s and '70s. the mark twain of my stores is in his '20s and '30s when he hasn't really learned to conceal his extreme emotion under that grandfatherly façade. extremely ambitious. he's vindictive, angry. he's vengeful, competitive. he is filled with anxiety about money and fear for the future. he's convinced he will end up in the poor house and he is surrounded by these other young writers in san francisco who really form an emboldened to literary maturity. san francisco was a great place to be provided in the 1860s and there are few reasons why. it's very peaceful. so the civil is tearing apart

the rest of the country. san francisco, there's no fighting, just the coast. address is never applied west of iowa and kansas so it's a great place to sit out the war. also a very rich city. it's the industrial financial and commercial center of the far west and that prosperity finances a range of publications that sustains a class of professional writers including twain. it's also a very urban city. it's got more than 100,000 people went twain is there which makes it by far the biggest city west of st. louis. that population is very cosmopolitan which is a real legacy of the gold rush. you've got time he's -- chinese, europeans, south american, mexicans, australians, you name it. the last reason that san francisco is so conducive to delivery seen is its isolation. it's pretty hard to reach san francisco from eastern united states and that gives a buffer to the culture.

so i thought i would begin just at the beginning, redevelopment of the introduction and then introduce you to these four characters. >> the civil war began with an outburst of patriotic you on both sides and a few battles would result in a swift victory. it ended with the death of 750,000 soldiers and a nation shaken to its core. the wise men of an earlier era found themselves entirely un-equal to the crisis. the great political and military leaders of the past, eminence is like john crittenden and general winfield scott, both born in the present century went into forced retirement, while younger, more modern minds like abraham

lincoln and ulysses s. grant rose to the church. the civil war destroyed old assumptions and rewarded radically new thinking. it triggered a cultural upheaval comparable to the one brought a century later by the vietnam war, a national trauma that made an older generation some absolute and demanded novelty, innovation, experimentation. the 1860s was bloody, bewildering and if you managed to survive, and magnificent time to be a young american. if america belonged to the young, and its future lay in the youngest place in america, the far west. the pioneers who settled it were overwhelmingly young, and untethered from traditional society, they build a new world without the benefit of their parents council but if their intent months often riddled with post-adolescents access, but also offered opportunities unlike any that might be found in the colleges and counting houses of the beast. these to americans with a 10 faced children of walt whitman's poem pioneers, o pioneers, the

vanguard of democracy. when whitman looked west he didn't see a place. he saw an idea, rooted in a mystical tradition as old as the country itself. thomas jefferson had been its founding prophet. he and his disciples believed that american civilization would march and inevitably toward the pacific and the continents limitless supply of virgin land would be settled by yeoman farmers to embody the nation a gala carrying speak. of course, the reality was more often complicated. the region content land that resisted cultivation, and indians who resisted extermination. but as the light of settlement instant steadily forward past the allegheny's, then the mississippi, then the rockies, the jeffersonian dream of the westward empire of liberty begin to look like prophecy. even henry david thoreau went according for his daily walk in concord felt drawn in a westerly direction. the future lies that way to me, he wrote, and the earth seems more unexhausted and richer on that site.

mark twain was born in 1835 and reached young adulthood at the best possible time, just as the country embarked on the most extraordinary period of change in its history. he was a westerner by birth, race on the missouri frontier. the outbreak of the civil war forced them farther west as he fled the fighting in his native state for the region beyond the rockies. there he found another frontier and the social experiment unlike any in the country. in 1848, the discovery of gold in california have triggered a swift influx of people from all corners of the world. as the gateway to the gold rush, san francisco went from a drowsy backwater to a booming global seaport. mostly the newcomers were young, single men. they hadn't come to stay but to get rich and give it. they erected tents and wooden hovels, makeshift structures that made easy kindling for the city's frequent fires. they build a gambling dens and saloons and brothels. they lived among the cultures of

five continents, often condensed into the space of a single street. by the time twain out there, san francisco still roared. it was densely urban, yet unmistakably western. isolated yet cosmopolitan, crude yet cultured. the secret spectacle was on the gas of stages of its many theaters or in the ornately costumed pageantry of its streets. it's wide open atmosphere and give it to the young and to the odd, to anyone seeking refuge from the over civilized east. it had an acute sense of its own history, and the pagan-ish appetite for ms. -- mythmaking and richer. even as the gold rush waned and the miners shanties begins banks and restaurants and boutiques, the city didn't slow to a more settled rhythm. rather come it financed the opening of new frontiers in nevada, idaho and elsewhere, and leapt from one bonanza to the next. its citizens spent lavishly on piece of oysters and terrapin, on imported fashions and

furnishings. they drank several bottles of champagne for everyone drunk in boston. long after the gold rush they kept the frontier spirit of the city a life. they also sustained a thriving publishing culture california was always calling with scribblers. the first generation wrote the story of the gold rush themselves, in letters and diaries and in the pages of the newspapers they started as soon as they arrived. san francisco's printing press is cranked up pamphlets, terry articles and books relating the loneliness and boredom of the frontier. by the 1860s the city it's fun and extraordinarily racing, a band of outsiders called the way he means. twain joined the ranks an encounter which it the entire current of his life. so the first time twain comes to san francisco the spring of 1863 and he's been living in virginia city nevada at the time working as a journalist for a local paper called the territorial enterprise. the recent twain comes was

originally is to avoid the civil war because when a civil war breaks out in 1861, he is working on the mississippi as a steamboat pilot and the warships down traffic so he's out of a job. the other problem that industry at the time you have draft agents from both the confederate and union sides going door-to-door pressing young men into service. he has to get out of missouri hadn't he has an opportunity brother is appointed secretary to the territorial sector of nevada. the two of them, sam clemens, and ryan, his brother, got on a stagecoach and went west. then in the spring of 1863, twain visits san francisco for the first time. san francisco is a place to spend money in the west if you have it. so if you're coming to the big city from the mining boom town and he is looking for a good time. what people remember best about him, aside from his brambly date

was a strange way of speaking, a drawl like fallen branches on the surface of a stream. printers transcribed it with hyphens and dashes trying to render reasons so complex they could been scored and sheet music. he rest in drones, lapsed into long silences, inherited from the slave songs of his childhood. he made people laugh while remaining gratefully imperiously series. he mixed the sincere and the secured, the factual and the fictitious in proportions too obscure for even his closest friends to decipher. he was prickly, irreverent, and vicious, vindictive, personality as impenetrably fast as the american west. and is prone to seismic outburst. the with sam clemens before he came -- became mark twain. he made a decision that brought them one step closer to what he craved. on may 2, 1863, mark twain

boarded a stagecoach bound for seven cisco. the trip to the california coast promise more than 200 miles of terrain, sleepless nights spent corkscrew into the sierras. these discovered didn't deter the young twain who at 27 already had more interesting memories than most men twice his age. he had piloted steamboats on the mississippi, ma rome his native missouri with the band of confederate guerrillas, and as the civil war began in earnest, taking the overland route to the territory of nevada. now he fell in love with the first and only metropolis of the far west. after the sagebrush and alkaline deserts he would later wrote san francisco was paradise to me. its grandeur and festivity exhilarated him and he gorged himself with abandonment. he drank champagne and addendum

of the white house, high society modeled on the banquet hall of versailles. he towards the pleasure garden on the outskirts of town. he made a pretty girl who snubbed him when he said hello, and said hello when he snubbed or. he wrote to the beach and listen to the roaring surf and put his toes in the pacific are on the far side of the continent he felt the country's vastness. he hadn't planned to stay long but a nonstop itinerant of eating, drinking, sailing and socializing captain too busy to bear the thought of leaving. in mid-may he wrote his mother and sister to say he would remain for another 10 days, two weeks at the most. by early june, another letter announced he was still in san francisco but switched launching -- lodging story that showed up and showed no signs of slowing his demonic pace. the city offered many after dark and easements, high toned saloons and die the dance halls,

gambling dens and girlie shows and the ready return home before midnight. he was never at a loss for companionship. he reckoned he knew at least 1000 of the city's 115,000 residents, mostly friends from nevada. the city's main thoroughfare, montgomery street, where crowds and carriages swarmed under gleaming italian façades reminded him of his hometown. spring turned to summer and still twain hadn't let. dreading the inevitable, he clung on for as long as he could but it seems like going back to prison, to go back to the snows and deserts, he complained. in july he finally said farewell. he had been away from nevada for two months. even after he settled back on the dry side of the sierras and the city lingered in his mind. over the course of the next year he would find many reasons to return. first to visit, then to live. he went to chronicle its quirks and hurt the feelings of not a few of its citizens. in exchange, san francisco would

mold him into literate maturity and would inspire his evolution from a scribbler to a great american writer, from hannibal samuel clemens into america's mark twain. so twain continues to visit seven cisco and then he decides to move there permanently in the spring of 1864. when he does he comes into contact with bret harte who was the city's leading literary figure. the two of them are going to form a very complicated love-hate relationship that will continue in the coming years and continue beyond san francisco. bret harte like to be looked at. that season as summer for coulda the city might be seen in a stylish overcoat sporting a lamb collar, brightened by a flash of color of crimson necktie perhaps that set them apart. every fold, every fabric of the young man's outfit would be carefully arranged. a montgomery street he floated through the human foliage like a

brilliantly plumed bird. if your eyes happened to me this, he would smile. if he spoke a few words in greeting his voice would be agreeable. there would be no yarn spinning or risk losing. nothing to remind one of a wild man mark twain. he preferred to be admired from afar. there was much to admire. at 26, harte have become the leading literary light of the pacific coast, no small feat in a state or even the shaggy is minor aspired, and poets were pop stars, declaiming versus teacher and crowds at public gatherings. harte have powerful friends, a rising reputation, a wife and an infant son. his evenings didn't involve drunken roms into virginia city variety. they centered on more domestic concerns, like how to keep baby griswold from disturbing his study. or his wife from getting him to do household chores so that he might have a couple of quiet hours to write.

this shy, soft-spoken dandy must have seemed like an odd choice for the far west literary spokesman. he didn't wield an ax or a revolver. he ridiculed at the region's most cherished, especially the cult of the pioneer. he hated philistine sentimentalist and hypocrites and felt that california had all three in abundance. where others saw progress, he saw decline. a few things escaped the corrosive touch of his subtle reference as his friend later observe. i'd harte wasn't just a destroyer. as he often felt disillusioned with california, this was because he saw its true potential. as an infinitely original civilization with its own unique history and habits, a singular fraternity of spaniards, mexicans, chinese, europeans, australians, indians and americans living free from the troubles of precedent on the far edge of the world. he was the real genuine america coveted by walt whitman, the world of raw literary

possibility the on the wildest imagining of the country's reigning custodians of high culture, and just possibly the seeds of a new national literature. the next character i'm going to introduce is charles warren stoddard who is a very shy young man. in 1862, he publishes his first poems in the golden era which is the city's most prestigious literate paper at the time. he had been staying on clay street at the time you would've seen him pacing back and forth in front of the office with an envelope with a poem in his hand in a cold sweat waiting until it would have cleared off and then he finally would push the envelope through the slot and run away. after having spent hours building up the courage. sure enough the poem appears in the next edition of the golden era, and he starts writing more poems and becomes connected to this bohemian scene centered on

harte and twain and others. so here's a stoddard. bishop on my chemistry sold mostly religious books and bibles. inside its work was constantly dusting. not because he cared much for cleanliness, but because the monotony of the motion made it easier for his mind to wander. as he sank deeper into this daydream to the feather duster in his hands became a palm tree. he longed for the tropics. it falls in love with them teachers earlier while crossing nicaragua on his way to california. he renumbered that syrup taste of the oranges and the mist that spread when he broke the skin to remove the plumage of the birds flicker against the relentless green of the jungle. most of all remembered the natives who adored her nearly naked bodies with necklaces of weeks. one day conference most famous preacher appeared in the doorway cutting him short. celebrities had been in the shop before i never want whom stoddard held in such high

esteem. in my youth i was a hero worshiper he later wrote, and thomas starr king seem to be the most liberal of them all. after a probing glance of the trims in court, he drew a scrap of newspaper from his pocket. did you write these lines, he asked, pointing to his poems? stoddart said he did. the minister responded by reading them aloud. he added words of encouragement to his favorite lines and invited stoddard to visit him with more work. he also visited tickets to upcoming lecture series on american poetry where he would be discussing the distinguished new england poets from stoddard has read as a scoble. then he vanished. i was left speechless -- speechless with wonder and delight. at first glance the young poet might have reminded king of harte. both were slender and delicate built. both had large expressive eyes, not unlike king himself. but harte wrote painstakingly while stoddard's penmanship spilled merrily down the page,

often illegible and the spelling atrocious. harte kept most people at a distance. stoddard held onto them for dear life. started was deeply lovable. harte was not. what people love best about stoddard was his woman to be. is yearning for success, his dread of failure, the pain he felt when criticized and a pleasure he felt when praised. these are the emotional undertow of any writer's life command expensed them more openly than most. twain concealed his insecurities with bravado in which. harte hid behind the city's exterior and get stoddard aired his passion in public. they all loved him for it. this was the true source of what ina coolbrith would call his invincible charm. the all conquering war that many people lower their defenses. they saw their struggles reflected in stoddard childlike faith is that they would always be one part of his personality that they couldn't possibly understand or. his homosexuality.

like country endured abuse from schoolyard bullies because he looked too feminine. unlike harte he pursued close relationships with certain boys for whom he felt an especially deep devotion. a few chums and pals rarely reciprocated the affection and has a child became to expect their rejection, even to take a kind of pleasure in it. he loved being in love. the love man, jack london christened him many years later. yet for some who found solace in the written word you live in a world of no words for what he was. forte love was not only forbidden but invisible. it was never plainly discussed. the last character to introduce is ina coolbrith. by the time ina coolbrith as to when which is endured a lifetime of tragedy. she actually was born in illinois come and her father dies when she is very young. our uncle is joseph smith who is the founder of mormonism it's as

she grows up in at mr. of violent persecution. the mormons were really terrorized at that point in the midwest. she and her mother and her step father, and the rest of her siblings, decide to go west to california and end up settling in los angeles where ina marries a man named robert was very abusive who tries to kill her. so they go through this terrible divorce and ina also gives birth to a child that dies fix all this happened by the time she's 21. it's 1862. the family decides to move to san francisco to bury her past and start over. she starts to write poems and publish them in the golden era where everyone else is writing. this brings her into contact with people like stoddard and harte and twain. the timing is very good because just as she is emerging in december this glue racing, the kenyans have decided to start their own paper. that the golden era has been good so far -- bohemians.

they need their own form. this marks a kind of pneumonia in the literary evolution of the west. building a better paper would bring twain, harte and stoddard closer together but they went from being a queens is to france, from colleagues in the airs crowded area to co-conspirators in the literary crusade of their own. another rider joined him, ina coolbrith. she stayed mostly out of sight from relocating from los angeles in 1862. she taught english at a language school from 10 a.m. until 3 p.m. and then returned home to her mother wash dishes, scrub linens and to the rest of the domestic work. she had trouble sleeping at night, persecuted by members of her past. by the age of 22 she had endured an abusive husband, humiliating divorce and the death of her infant child. she remained wary of what she called -- were bitter verses

about suffering. yet she needed a way out. beyond grief, beyond the burdens of her drew work in demanding family. in san francisco's literary scene she would find friends, fulfillment and finally a life worth living. she first met stoddard at the home of a mutual friend, a slender, delicate handsome figure playing dreamily at the piano from his fingers skipping consulate across the keys. this was how she remembered him some 60 years later. we were a little more than boy and girl, she recalled. he was only 20 but his success has been swift. he no longer put poems in the mailbox and ran away in a cold sweat. he was now a fixture of bohemian san francisco spoiled by everyone because of his youth, his physical peak, magnetic personality, coolbrith them or. and hope he looked the part. the ideal poet and appeared ideal poet and parents should welcome as beautiful as shelley, especially poetic were his frequent mood swings, his moments of moonstruck.

like the other friendships that form what coolbrith later called the tribe, the bond between her and stoddard took time to develop. eventually they became like brother and sister. coolbrith threatened to box his ears as soon as and stoddard acting coy. stoddard would strike others as childlike, confined to the source and solace of permanent adolescence. coolbrith would appear too mature for years having lived a lifetime on her early '20s. neither would ever enjoy the comforts of the conventional adulthood. both kept secrets that preclude traditional paths and they never started families other own but but they remained close their entire lives. the friendship between us has been more to meet the love of a man, she once told him. in december 1863, coolbrith publisher second column. struck a hopeful note describing the seedling of spring growing to its slow yet sure fulfillment.

she was emerging from her shelves just in time to take part in california's latest literary experiment. in recent weeks the area had been buzzing with talk of a new periodical. we laid our heads together over -- and have determined to start a paper. they shared a single purpose, to wage all-out war on mediocrity, materialism and a middleground. they deplored california's intellectual conditions, its preponderance of nervous old dandies and so the young girls, its taste for clumsy melodrama and moralizing. the time had come for a new kind of journal, more discriminating in town. the era had been a good start but the bohemians had outgrown it. they needed a platform of their own. so the story continues and i wish i had more time to keep reading. but i thought i would stop there and open it up to questions. so thank you for listening. [applause]

>> i would like -- at me, i got this book a couple of weeks ago and i have it finished it but i've been very impressed with what you wrote. i wanted to ask you, how did you get involved with mark twain in all of this? i mean, because i read mark twain when i was a teenager, and i read tom's order and huckleberry finn. i never read king arthur. i never read the innocents abroad, but i read essays and a new that mark twain was involved in many different things like interest -- imperialist lead. so i was curious, because it's an excellent book. i really deeply appreciate. >> thank you. well, i think for me i always wanted to write about san francisco. i was always fascinated in california history and they had a sense, many of us who grew up

in san francisco have a sense that twain spent time your but we are not sure how much time. and it turns out, as i learned more about how much time you spend your and our formative those years have been for him a realize that was the star a wanted to write. and particularly you mentioned that twain of the huck finn and tom for, i think twain is the one we think of an our minds i've. were as this is twain to me was a stranger and destiny that these emotions were so much closer to the surface, and to seseem in this kind of embryonic phase where his emotions are a bit more extreme and the fun about aspects of this style are starting to come together. to me that was really fascinating. the california context, for me that was a big plus. any other questions? >> first of all, thank you. really enjoyed the reading and

the book but i do question about stoddard actually. i was wondering, given that san francisco has long been the bastion of the gay-rights and gay literature and culture, what has been the reception community, of the past century or so of stoddard? had he been claimed as a precursor to the life of the castro, or how would you describe his reception later on? >> i think he is. i think he has been rediscovered as kind of a poor father of gays in san francisco. it's tough though because as i mentioned in the passage about a red, the word gay is obvious and not one that would've encouraged in him and it's not even clear how fully he kind of verbalize his own sexuality to himself. he has this correspondence with walt whitman, and he says at one point walt whitman is not replying to his letters. at one point he says in the name of calamus, replied to me. and, of course, these poems the walt whitman wrote about

homosexuality. and in that, and in many of walt whitman's poems there are these items to use metaphor and symbols and images to describe homosexuality but not quite naming it. another favorite phrase of walt whitman's is an adhesive temperament which inherits, and whitman says to stoddard, i recognize in you is temperament. so there are coded ways to describe it, but homosexuality kind of the way we think of it now is not really current for stoddard. but that doesn't prevent us from being able to claim him as a pioneer, certainly. any other questions? >> you are examining the characters with like heavy emphasis on the cultural conduct of the time, right? the gold rush, young men flocking to the city, sort of earned a fortune and then get out, the enormous wealth that's running through the city.

obviously, there are close analogues today, right? people talk about a second gold rush. rewriting with that in mind or with the current situation in mind? >> i think it's next -- i have a live in the city for 10 years. i live in new york now, but i returned a lot and i came back a lot to research it. and i think that that inevitably did shape my thinking, kind of subconsciously. unfortunately, though i don't have any great things to say about those parallels. but i think that there is something obviously reminiscent of the gold rush in the current tech revolution. certainly what it does to the ransom price which you saw back in the days as well. but one thing, the thing i thought about a lot and have really come up with a very good answer is that the prosperity in san francisco in the 1860s really finances its literary scene. because it's such a rich city, you can have so many newspapers

and people have the leisure time to read them. if you go into the library of congress for 1860-1870, you find more than 300 different papers published in san francisco over that period in english, mandarin, german, french, you name it. so that really allows a lot of people to make a living on writing. that's really how this literary scene comes together. i'm not sure what the parallel would be today, whether it's prosperity now would sustain another literary scene, i do know. it's harder to know, suspect people in this room have very strong feelings about that. >> i don't know if this is getting to beyond -- getting to be on the historical you're addressing here but i'm curious, how it might have affected ambrose because he was there and

it wasn't that much later i think. >> i love ambrose. initially was thinking about this book is going to be the fifth character. i had to cut him out because he doesn't get to the city until after the end of the civil war. so he actually does participate in this bikini moment but it's towards the end. he's friends with all of them, and publishes the oberlin mother which is the kind of area article that bret harte edits in which is kind of the height of booking in san francisco. but he is a major figure in this. and, obviously, he stays on later. than many of these people do. twain, harte and stoddard all leave the city, but he remains. he's a wonderful figure and i think he is, if you want to find a bridge between kind of 1860 san francisco literary scene and later decades, he's the ideal link between those worlds.

i wish i was able to write more about him in the book. that would be great. [inaudible] >> i wonder if you could just talk about the style a little bit. they had a manifesto. do you feel like they shared a style of sensibility that they would invent something as a bunch of san francisco writers? >> it's a good question. i think that weirdly enough people in the east were more aware or at least more articulate in describing what they were doing than they were, that harte and twain in particular not very good at describing what was revolution about their own style, but some like william dean howells who as he and editor at "the atlantic monthly" and is really offers a gateway for the san francisco writers to enter kind of new england lit written establishments. he is a perspective -- what they

are drawing on from the frontier that's kind of rich irony, this rambling flow, the use of dialect and slang, the howls is looking at that and seeing as he calls the artists of the new american literature. which for him is necessary to modernize american literature and bring it out of the kind of provincial new england origins and that's really howells crissy. so he was an incredible resource for me trying to understand what was revolution about this style. but as many artists are not always very articulate about their own work. >> so in the introduction you briefly mentioned a parallel between the civil war and the vietnam war, 100 years apart, and reference to the west and east geography and how that influenced the literature at the time. i was wondering if you collaborated that on that further in the book or if you wanted to mention that further

now? >> i think, the cultural revolution that is present by the support is central to the book. ..

the west is really the laboratory where that new america is being created. any other questions? sir? >> so one thing i was thinking about is, when you look back and i have historical context it becomes obvious or can make a case of a certain set of writers was revolutionary or the voice of their generation. i'm kind of curious is it obvious while it is happening or did mark twain see himself that way? kind of a corollary would we see that was happening today or would we not know for 30 years? >> that's a good question. i think we probably won't know for 30 years. you need the virtue of hindsight in that situation. as i mentioned before the writer himself or herself is not a great authority on the subject of what is most interesting or revolutionary about their work. twain himself, i talk about jim smiling and jumping from which is a sketch twain writes in 1865

when he is here in san francisco. i think it is kind of a birth moment for his style and later late airy innovation. he has a conflicted relationship toward it. he doesn't necessarily see it that way. really only with decades of hindsight with later works like huckleberry finn and tom sawwer year this is where you track back where it began. for contemporary scene we won't know for 30 years. we we'll have to wait. any other questions? yes. >> how do you think the whole history of literature and what they were writing relates to the history of vigilantism in san francisco? >> well, vigilantism was a major force in san francisco history, particularly in the 1850s. there are these two vigilante uprisings in the 1850s which

are essentially the, as they're presented, respectable citizens of san francisco cleaning up the town by taking justice in their own hands and lynching criminals and particularly in 1856 they hang two noted criminals and actually control the city for a period of time. by the time these writers are working, that phase is kind of behind san francisco. 1860 san francisco has matured a bit. it is no longer the rough-and-tumble frontier down it was before. you still have the brothels but they're not right out in the plaza. they're a little bit back. all the same activities are happening but they have been forced to become a little more discrete. and the kind of rampant lawlessness you read about in a book called, "barbary coast" and hear about sydney conduction and australian thugs.

it is fantastic reading but by the type the bohemians arrive that time is mostly past. i wouldn't say it plays enormous role in their work. any other questions? >> i'm sure the research into this was enormous and many sources but if you could, is there top three or four that you have that come to your mind as of sources of research that you went to for this book? >> well i would say 70% roughly of the research happened at the bancroft in berkeley. and it was just invaluable. the twain stuff, twain is such great scholarship around twain. you can go to mark twain project.org and v. all of his letters i think until 1881. there are wonderful editions of his correspondence. when it comes to researching twain it is actually pretty straightforward. with these other characters i had to dig a little bit deeper

into the archives, their work, stoddard, their work is not as widely known that is little more detective work i really enjoyed. the bancroft has most of it. i was at the huntington. i was here at san francisco public library and oakland public library and collections on the east coast but i was mostly at berkeley. any other questions? all right. well, thank you so much for having me. [applause] i will be here signing books. if you want your book signed i will be here. thank you for coming. >> or special booktv programming in prime time continues tonight with highlights from book fairs and festivals. beginning with the "los angeles times" panel on

finance at 9:30 p.m. eastern. after that, a gun control debate from the annapolis book festival. later from tucson a discussion on charity. booktv in prime time is here on c-span2. >> the house this week takes up its third of the 2015 spending bills. the commerce, justice and science spending bill. tamar holler man covers the appropriations process from cq roll call. joins us from capitol hill. this is wide-ranging bill. give us idea what is in it and how much is congress proposing to spend. >> house appropriators are proposing to spend $51.2 billion. that is $100 million than currently enacting spending levels. this is super wide-ranging spending bill. it fund the department of commerce, the department of justice rand science agencies like the national science foundation. it touches issues like abortion

and guantanamo. this is truly wide-ranging bill. >> i want to ask about the gun issue. it came out in rules committee in a piece you wrote in cq, after democratic gun provisions turned aside. does that mean the debate on the floor won't see any gunments? >> not at all. the majority of debate time when the house appropriations committee took this up earlier this month and because of the recent shootings ad uc santa barbara out in california we really are expecting to see many of the same gun amendments we saw in committee in addition to perhaps some new ones. >> tamar hallerman is on twitter tweeting about this bill. and a link to that chart at cq "roll call." the charts showing the department, national oceanic and atmospheric administration getting a fair chunk of the money. also with the patent office as well as national institutes of

standards and technology s this year's request, you said it was less than last year's, is it about the same in terms of percentages? >> it is about the same although one interesting thing that house appropriators are looking to do, they want to cut 24% from the climate research side from the national oceanic and atmospheric administration. they want to move a lot of that funding to weather satellites. so an interesting shift there. democrats are definitely opposing some of that they want to see money continue to go to climate research. we'll see what happens with that on the floor. >> in addition to the gun issue which may come up in amendment, there is word medical marijuana and law enforcement may come up. >> yeah. there is very interesting combination of lawmakers from california are looking to back this on the floor. we've got states rights, very conservative republicans as well as some of your most liberal members who are looking to include a provision that would bar the justice department from prosecuting any medical marijuana users who have a prescription for it in states

where it's legal. this is a measure, or a, provision that has been brought up in previous years and it was actually turned down in committee but given the increasing poll numbers for legalization of marijuana nationwide, the number of supporters this will get on the house floor will be something we'll be watching. >> one of the groups opposing the bill has been the heritage foundation. in a piece they published online they're writing about some spending in the bill. they're writing that congress should also require nasa to expand its contracting with private firms to provide space transport tearings and rockets. they point out that the proposed budget has fund established for food items for a trip to mars despite the fact that nasa has no current plan for a martian expedition. when groups like heritage foundation put together a piece like this does it have impact on members? >> especially some of the more conservative republicans. we'll see how many break with groups like heritage and support

the measure. >> this is the last appropriations bill, last cgs appropriations chair for subcommittee chairman frank wolf of virginia. what will his legacy be in terms of this bill and the overall appropriations process? >> you will see a lot of provisions there really his leg basy issues, particularly related to gang violence which something has been an issue in his northern virginia district. he also cares deeply about science funding and he is proposing the, highest level of funding for the national science foundation. i believe in the nation's history. so he is going to definitely step out and defend those science programs from some of more conservative republicans who would rather see that money spent elsewhere. >> looking at cgs debate in the u.s. house, tamar hallerman, covers spending at cq roll call and follow her on twitter. thanks for the update. >> thank you. >> up next the progressive policy institute forum on the federal communications

commission open internet policy and the fcc's recent vote to move forward on a proposed bill that could allow content provide is like netflix to pay for fast lane service. over the next hour and 45 minutes you will hear a panel of experts on the ramifications of the plan and from ruth i milk man, chief of staff for fcc chairman tom wheeler. >> good afternoon, everybody. my name is will marshall. i'm president of the progressive policy institute and i want to welcome you to today's forum ont should theo fcc serve as the internet traffic cop? it's a real pleasure to see so many people here today. frankly we were worried we would have memorial day weekend attrition but i can see that the joys of wallowing on beaches is nothing compared to taking a deep dive into the intricacies of interconnection which is what we're going to do today. thank youh all are very much for

coming out toy have lunch and debate with us on this important topic. the progressive policy institute has done a lot of work, as i know many of you know, on the communications boom in the unitedk states. our chief economist, michael mandel, has talked about the rise of a data driven economy which is the prime catalyst ofo investment and innovation and job growth in the united states and hasti been since the depthsf the late recession. we believe that a high-growth economy requires regulatory policies that strike the right balance between really important public goals, innovation and investment in jobs on one side, and protecting consumer interests and other public values on the other. the ppi's done a lot of work lately on regulatory improvement. just last week, 20 members of congress, bipartisan, 10 and 10 republicans and democrats, introduced a regulatory

improvement commission bill that was modeled on a proposal that we've created to provide a basis for reducing old and superfluous regulation. we think that today's conversation is in keeping with this desire to create a regulatory framework for the continue ages of this innovation that we've seen in the telecommunications internetnu sectors.n and since the 1996 telecom act, the fcc has been striving to get the balance right and we have outdoors, i hope you all get a copy of ppi brief on this topic by ed ehrlich, called a brief history of internet regulations, compulsively readable. an account of how we have wrestled with how to, how to manage and regulate the new information services that have pretty muchna replaced ol'-style telephony. but today our topic is interconnection.

now sometimes as you all know that's often contemplated with the -- conflated with open internet issues, issues of net neutrality. we tackled those last march at at ppi forum after d.c.'s circuit court ruling in another program called new rules for progressive broadband policy. that is separate and distinct issue. that is not really the main focus of our conversation today. the question we want to grapple with terms which networks create to workwh with network of netwos we call internet up till now negotiated between private parties involved should be subject to fcc regulation. we have ao terrific panel of experts here to discuss that. this forum has been organized by hal singer, my colleague. hal is principle at economist ink and ppi senior fellow and really a player coach when it comes to these issues. he will be on the panel later and author of another highly

readable ppi policy brief on mandatory interconnection. should fcc serve as internetr traffic cop which i think really elucidates these issues. and gives us a close analysis of the social costs and benefits of a mandatory interconnection regime which some people have proposed. and offers some very creative alternatives to top-down prescription for interconnection. now all of this is in keeping with the progressive policy institute's central message to our fellow progressives. if we're serious about expanding opportunity, and about reversing economic inequality and i think we are, we have to protect the environment for innovation. that is really the background we're going toa have this discussion on interconnection today. i wouldio like to now introduce, make two introductions in reverse order of the folks you will next bet hearing from.

i willk call our keynote speakeg up to the podium a minute. let me introduce the moderator to take over the show right after we hear our keynote speaker and then i will introduce ruth milk man. larry downs is our moderate do. he has done the job and marvelous at it. i think you know that larry is an internet analyst who writes regularly for the harvard business review and cnet and a "washington post" among othershi coveringng intersection of tech politics and business. he is author of a best-seller, unreesing the "killer ap," which "the wall street journal" called one. five most important books ever published on technology. he has a new book out i want to give him a plug for. big bang disruption. which challenges the conventional wisdom aboutal disruption innovation and how

businesses deal with it. you have to read the back to figure that out but i'm sure it is worth it. larry is director of georgetown evolution and innovation project. it's a great to introduce our keynoter speaker ruth milkman. chief of staff to fcc chair tom wheeler which puts her in the vortex of controversy. i'm sure you have not had many boring weeks lately. she is serving second stint asf fcc wireless telecom bureau. in between these stints she was special counsel to the chairman of innovation and government. between 1986 and 1998 she served as deputy chief of international and common carrier bureau and senior legal advice tore chairman reed hunt. shee is founding partner of lawler, and served as a law clerk to j harvey wilkinson of u.s. court of appeals of fourth circuit. we're very fortunate in the

midst of all controversies swirling around then fcc she is able to takee time out and give us the benefit and experience and deep expertise on these subjects. without further adieu, ruth, please take the stage. [applause] >> thank you for, will, for that nice introduction and hal singer inviting me here and orangean noising such a -- organizing great group of speakers on this very important topic. i've been a communications lawyer for more years than i would care to admit but before i became hooked on telecom policy i was an english major and one of the great novels of the 20th century in english literature is a book called, "howard's end" and has a twoit word preface. only connect. so i'm one of the few people whn

canl honestly say that my degree in english literature actually prepared me for my career at the fcc. since i joined the fcc in 1986, in government and in private practice i've been interested in interconnection issues for a long, long time so i'm really delighted to be here today and kick things off with a few thoughts. interconnection of course is key to all successful networks. a network by definition connects. first a network connects component parts to one another. and that forms a whole and interconnection takes us to the next level. so interconnection is just the connection of onees network to another toso form the network of networks that will marshall referenced. these connections drive a network's value. they're the source of thene positivetw network effects that benefit the public. that's why from the very

beginning interconnection has been a source of public policy concern. this link between interconnection and success is true ofe all networks. so if you think about the nations of railroad systems which evolved from short lines in the mid 18 hundreds to regional lines interconnecting cities and eventually, a transcontinental railroad network connecting the nation allowing passengers and goods to traverse the country with unprecedented speed and ease. so too the electric grid. electrical networks in the united states began as insular systems that serviced specific geographic areas but with the advent of long distance power transmission and the electrification of the country in the early 20th century, the electric grid evolved intoe widespread interconnected network spanning large distances and allowing electric utilities to reap benefits of economies of

scale, increased reliable, and loadin balancing. communications networks are no different. the first telephones were not networked but individually wired together for private use. but as use of the device spread, telephones were wired to exchanges. exchanges wired together with trunks, trunks wired into networks andto eventually netwos interconnected to form the publicnn switched telephone network on which consumers and businesses have relied for nearly a century. all of these successful networks share a common theme. the interconnection that led to theme networks success was encouraged and sometimes mandated by governmental efforts and regulatory oversight. but it is important to note there have been diverse regulatory approaches to insuring effective interconnection. some have involved a lighter touch.

others a relatively heavy hand. often price regulation has been part of the package. at bottom however the fact is that a network without connectionst and interconnectios is onet that simply doesn't wore disconnected t networks do not serve the public interest. with respect to communications networks, interconnection is part of what the chairman, what chairman wheeler has called, the network compact, which is that set of network values on which consumers have come to rely and expect from their networks. the internet's connections have led to its value as a platform for competition, for civic engagement, for economic growth. and as the chairman has said, manner in which networks interconnect to exchange internet traffic is a part of the network compact. those values that have traditionally governed successful networks. thus, it is a question that must

concern the commission. let me take a moment to unpack the question that is posed by's event. whether isps should be subject to the interconnection obligations of the kind imposed on owners of public switch telephone networks. those obligations are really far from monolithic. so i thought it might be worth considering ait few different types of interconnections to the public switch telephone network. think about interconnection of customer premises equipment, cpe. part 68 rulesti establish standards for allowing, technically compatible devices to attach to telephone networks. no money changes hand but competitive manufacture you ares of equipment -- manufacturers of equipment can build and deploy incredible variety of voice and data equipment for use on the public network without seeking

prior permission from either the commission or telephone companies. next, consider long distance interconnection and access charges. the availability of microwave transmission equipment after world war ii significantly lowered economic and technological barriers to entry for long distance communication but to compete successfully competitors like mci, needed to interconnect long haul private lines with at&t's local networko so theynn could connect subscribers to non-subscribers and vice versa. in large par, it was at&t's failure to interconnect with such competitors, including strategies involving degradation of interconnections, that triggered the justice department investigationof that in turn led to the bell system breakup. then in 1982 the fcc approved a postdivestiture access plan

which was an important component of competition in the long distance market. wireless carriers face a different interconnection landscape. wireless providers have long been operating pursuant to what are essentially bill and keep arrangements for wireless to wireless interconnection and thiso framework has proven successful for the wireless industry. in addition the decreasing price of wireless to wireline interconnection over time has facilitated growth.r or at least growth in wireless. finally one more wireless example and i can't help but give you all these wireless examples because that is what i spent most of the last four years doing. think aboutth voice and data roaming obligations for wireless providers, another form of interconnection. recognizing the importance of roaming for mobile consumers the commission has required for a number of year mobile wireless serviceum providers to provide automatic voice roaming n before ven, the fcc adopted rules requiring facilities-based

providers of commercial mobile data services to offer data roaming agreements to other such providers on commercially reasonable materials and conditions subject to certain limitations. for both voice and data, mobile wireless servicec providers entr intot roaming agreements with each other so their customers will be able to roam and receive service automatically regardless of their location. turning back to interconnection for isps. what have we seen and where are we today? as the internet evolved over time, models of interconnection for internet traffic exchange developed, including peering, paid transit, and then the use of content delivery networks ori cdns.v witnessing such arrangements some people said that peering and pay transit could be the model for interconnection pricing for all types of communications networks, not just internet backbones and they

suggested that the fcc could get out of the business of regulating interconnection and communications networks all together. others said that peering and transition arrangements were result of unusual set of circumstances and were not transferable to other communications networks and indeed might not even be stable for the backbone providers. over the years i think it is fair to say that interconnection between isps has not always been seamless. in act 1996, two large isps cut off their peering connections for over a week due to a dispute. in the winter of 1997, uunet, bpn, left the cix router which was the first commercial interconnectionc point. similar incidents continued into this decade. for example in 2005 level level 3 terminated its peering

arrangements with cogent n 2008, combing gent terminated its peering agreement with telia. we have been aware of similarbe disputes. comcast and level 3 in 2010 and cogent, comcast and verizonas earliert this year. rather than depeering outright, theseth disputes seemed to evole degradation of service arising from congestion at peering points, particularly during peak usage times with such disputes as a backdrop the fcc received a number of points of view on the manner in which the current traffic exchange regimes are or are not working. so one question mightno be this. are these disputes just business negotiations that cant be resolved adequately in the marketplace? or are they a warning sign of a breakdown of the functioning marketplace of interconnection and traffic exchange on the internet?

we don't know the answer. we at the fcc don't know the answer, maybe you in this audience do but we know that we need to learn more about how thb marketplace is or is not functioning. so how will the commission learn more? the commission will be reviewing information about interconnection on the internet in a number of contexts. first, as you all know, the fcc recently adopted a notice of proposed rule making regarding rules to protect and promote an open internet. the question of how networks exchange internet traffic such as through peering was outside the scope of the 2010 open internet order and thus, outside the proposed scope of the 2014 negotiates of proposed rule making. some parties though have sought to expand the scope of the 2014 notice to include issues relating to internet backbone providers, including issues of traffic exchange such as peering transit and also cdns.

so we're seeking comment on this question of scope in order to hear from those who may disagree with the suggested treatment of peering and traffic exchange. and we'll learn from those comments. in addition we expect parties will continue to raise concerns and provide information to the commission about isp interconnection practices. these avenues and no doubt others will serve the commission's and the public's interest in gaining a better understanding of traffics exchange on the internet today. but at the moment we have many more questions than answered. and for that reason, among others i'm very much looking forward to the discussion of the panel today and in the future, future discussions on these interesting and important topics. thank you.he [applause]

>> thank you very much. i'd like to ask the panelists to alluc come up now and we'll gets micked up. -- miced up. il will not give long introductions. you have the full bios. i will introduce the panelists once they have had a chance to sit down. hang out here for a second. while that's happening, let me introduce, what you heard about some terms peering an transit and cdns, interconnection. some of you may be very familiar with those. for some of you that may be a lot of technical jargon. what we've done we asked our good friend, jon peha, carnegie

medical tan university will give us a 10 minute, technical background on all the terms, how they fit in, what the architecture is. that is documentdaunting task to do in short period of time. jon will join the panel so we have a more thorough discussion about some of the policy and economic and technical issues involved. so let me turn it over to jon. thank you. >> thank you. so all i will be doing is telling everything you ever needed to know about interconnection and networks in 15 minutes and what the fuss is about. start with, the internet feelsli like one bigke network when we e it but, if that were the case there would be no such thing as interconnection but actually the internet is a network of networks. there are in fact over 66,000 independent, autonomous networks that somehow work as one and each network in there is connected to one or more neighboring n networks. that means information that i

send may travel from network to network to network before it finally gets to its intended recipient. so for. example, i have a studet right now in uganda and i sent her aen message this morning and amazingly from whatever network i am at it somehow figures out how toe get my message to here n uganda. there are some real challenges here. one of them, how does the network that i'm connected to know which of its neighbors can move that file towards her? that's technical problem. that is p a routing problem. also, not only does there have b to be a path all the way to uganda, but every network along the way has to be willing to carry this information. which brings me another question, why should it? there is cost to this. has to be some incentive. so the solution to both of these challenges is buried in the magic of interconnection agreements. an interconnection agreement is where two networks come together and agree on both technical and the business issues of

exchanging internet traffic, including, will i carry any of your traffic and if so which traffic will i carry? i'm talking here about internet traffic. ruth milk spin man describedet telephone world and even though technology is quite different. this is the internet. these agreements are unregulated typically highly confidential. we typically don't know what the agreements look like between most met networks. we know they fit two basic categories and they're peering and transit. let me talk a little bit about each of those possibilities. peer something where networks repip procali provide connectivity to each other's customers. so in this figure and i should, i should thank bill norton,in dr. peering because i'm using his great figure here. in this figure we have a green network and a blue network that are peering with each other and that means an announcement flows from the green network to the

blue network that says, hey if you want to talk to any customers of the green network, they're over here. i know how to reach them. send me your packets.an and a similar announcement goes ther other way from the blue network to the green network. that solves our technical problem. now all of o the customers of te green networkf can talk to all f the customers of the blue network. similarlyet in this figure the blue network is peering with the red network. so all of their customers can talk tohe each other but note pr something not transsieve. green and blue are peering. blue and red are peering but customers of the green network have n o way to communicate with the customers of the red network, not through peering. we need something else for that. that is technically what is going on.ha in terms of the business arrangements theyin vary. traditionally, historically peering was settlement free. we'll serve each other's customers and no money will change hands. that works very well among peers, among equals but in fact a very small network approach as very large network today, that small network is probably going

to be asked to pay some money and that is paid peering. technically the same but there is money involved. the other hangment is transit. transit one network is able to provide access to the entire the internet or in some cases some subset of it they agree to. so, in this case we have a customer and a transit provider. the light blue network in my slide is the customer. and it is going to the orange transit provider and saying, let me communicate with all of the internet. and the transit provider says, okay, here, i'm going to send you announcements. here is every network in the world i know how to reach. if you want to communicate with any off them, just send me your packets. i know how topack reach them. and similarly all the light blue one sends announcement, well, if you want to talk to any of my customers, here is where you reach those. once those are exchanged anybody in the in the light blue network can communicate with anyone anywhere in the world, assuming

the transit provider knew of everybody. everybody in this case includes transit providers directnc customers. since this transit provider inmy my figure f is peering with the yellow transit provider, its includes the yellow transit providers customers too. technically that is what is going on. business hangments, well the light blue network here is going to pay and they're going to pay depending how much traffic they send to the transit network and how muchh traffic they get back from the transit network. once you put those two types of agreements together you can create aut, little order in the chaos that is is the internet. you can create something called ar tier 1 network. a network is tier 1 if it is able to send traffic to the entire i internet without paying anybody peering or transit fees. it is no the easy to be a transit network or pier 1 network. to know about all the 66 and thousand counting networks in the world. you have to be highly reliable.

once you do this you're in a new business. you can now offer transit services to any other system p who -- isp who wants it for a fee which is happens. tiertier 1 networks charge tier 2 networks to provide transit service. tier 1 networks compete with each other and there is a lot of competition. tier 1 networks peer with each other settlement-free. you get hierarchy in the figure where the red tier 1 networks are connected to each other and tier 2 networks get transit service from tier 1 and some cases smaller networks get their service from a g tier 2. that is the internet at least as we understood it about a decade ago but it's been changing. and there are a few new things we need to understand. one of them is tier 2s adecade ago generally didn't connect with each other, that has been changing. more andin more tier 2 networks are peering with each other to bypass the tier 1. so in my top figure here in the

slide, you see, ispa and ispb both connected to a tier 1 transit provider and all the traffic flowing between them goes through that transit provider and they pay for it. say, well, what if they were to connect directly as in the lower figure? that means both of them would no longer have tohe pay transit fes for that traffic. they save money. on the other hand there's a cost. they have to pay for this peering connection which costs real money. if there is enough traffic flowing between them this deal can be worthwhile and they can save some money. increasingly we're seeing pier 2 networks peering with eachr other. another change over thet last decade is the rise of content distribution networks or cdns. the traditional way to think of this, the left figure in my graph and my slide where a content provider says, all right, here's my content. everybody in the world come get from the servers but they may

have to get it from all the way across the internet. that is slow and inefficient and actually much better if you can have them get that content from someplace close by. so they rely on cdns which are a collection of geographically distributed servers on which copies of the content can be stored. there are companies like akamai and limelight and others that offer this service. and they, some of them build their own networks which can be quite big. of course if you're really bigyo you don't have to go to a cdn al all.l. really big might in this case look like google which runs a g huge globallo network carrying n enormous amount of traffic they just run themselves and they can interconnect directly with very large networks because they're very large themselves. so when you put all of that together, if you are a content provider and you want to get your content, customers of a given isp how do you do it? you have three main choices. one of those choices you can build your own big network and

you can peer directly with that isp. second choice, you can contract with a transit provider, there are a bunch of them out there. the transit provider will carry your traffic from your system over to that isp and reach those customers. or, a third option you can go to a commercial cdn, say, you host my content near those customerse any of those are possible. actually, whether a cdn makes sense depend on your application. for some applications this is a great idea. for some it doesn't work so well which is another question. let me bring that to what is probably the most controversial discussion right now in this world which is that comcast and the netflix discussion. let me start with a caveat. i have no idea c what is going n with comcast and netflix. i've read lots and lots of accounts but everything i read i consider basically from an unreliable sources. so i'm going to be a little careful here but it seems that netflix is, for a while, served comcast customers via transit

network such as cogent and level 3 and probably a few others and netflix and also cogent were complaining that there was congestion on the transit connections. and after a while we know that netflix and comcast announced that they are in a peering arrangement. we assume i had is paid peering, that netflix is paying. how do we understand this? how do we think about this? let me first talk about how i think we should not think about this but a lot of press articles i read seem to. they annoy me and as part of therapy i want to spread my annoyance on to all of you. there is a narrative if a content heavy nest work like a netflix content peers with an provider like comcast one group says this inevitably generates traffic that is burden on access provider so the content-heavy network should pay the cost of this burden.rd there is another group that says this kind of peering arrangement inevitably generates traffic

that benefits both networks so the internext should clearly be settlement-free. both of these arguments are wrong. of and they start, you can start to see they're wrong because, peering doesn'tt generate traffc end systems generate traffic. if i am a customer of comcast and i want to watch a netflix video and netflix is willing to show it to me, the netflix video goes through the comcasttw network,or peering, no peering, doesn't matter. it ise the end systems that generate. there are cases where peering matters but n we need to peer a little more closely in terms of how much traffic comcast would have to carry. it matters if the end systems react to congestion in the network and it, those two paths, the peering path and transit path one of them is much more congested than the other. that seems to be what is going i on here, right?? what seems to be happening, we think, is that there was congestion in the transit links

but the direct not have that kindha of congestion. why does that matter? some application it is wouldn't. it so happens for netflix streaming if you're watching a netflix video and you're watching high-definition andng congestion comes along that application will automatically revert to low definition. so it will back off. because of that, congestion reduces the load. so, seems by both accounts there was congestion. the interesting question is here is why. let me stress part of the point of this story you can't look at the peering relationship in isolation. tough look at the broader context to make sense of this. the interesting question is whyh there are some peopleer who say, comcast likes the idea of congestion on their transit links. it got companies like netflix to enter into this paid peering arrangement and have to pay comcast. there are others who say that's ridiculous. comcast wouldn't like congestion. note that wouldn't just affect netflix. that would affect a lot of

traffic. con cast says this was cutting out middleman, about saving transit fees. if it is about congestion it is because those transit providers were being unreasonable and not doing their part to relief it. which of these stories is right? i don't have a h clue. i have got only unreliable sources here. let me wrap that up. interconnection agreements are central part of makingma a netwk like internet work. they take lots of forms. there is peering. there is transit. there is paid. there is unpaid. it is a result of private unregulated negotiations and those agreements are changing, right? there are new rules for cdn panned content provider networks. increasing number of peering relationships and changing financial terms and question isd why? maybe that we'll address that in the next the panel. >> thank you. >> we have discussion on a

number of fronts about this, before i introduce my panelists i want to tell you if you are following this discussion on twitter, the hashtag for our event is #fccnetrules. if you like to post some questions or comments as we're going please feel free to do sog i have f extremely distinguished panel to talk about these issues from a variety of standpoints. let me introduce them real quickly. i will tell you the layout for this. i will ask all of them an opening question, get everybody's answer to them and ask everybody a closing question at the end. in between i have about three hours worth of questions which clearly we're not going to get to all of them. then we're going to save some time at very end, last 20 minutes or so for your questions. if you have them, prepare them and we'll get to you when we can. so let me introduce the panelists from my left down to the end. first is kevinwer bach, associate of professor of legal

studies from university of pennsylvania, wharton school. hal singer, progressive fellow with the progressive policy institute. projeff gerry fall hauber, professor emate tures public policy at university of pennsylvania wharton school and former chief economist of the fcc. annaf maria kovacs, visiting policy scholar at george town university center for business and public policy. jon who you met, professor of electrical and computer t carnegie mellon and former chief technologist for the fcc. let me start with a quick question for all of you. jon just explained that interconnection refers to the back end of the internet, currently it is regulated if you will by thousands of these private ands as jon said, confidential agreements between network operators, most of which, so far at least we understand are even done on handshake basis of the no not a lot of them are even written down. give me your top line here. what ol' if any do you think fcc

should be playing in regulating those agreements? i will start with kevin and go down the line? >> sure. we started off in the exactly it right place. interconnection is essential to all communication networks and i singsal to thet' internet. there is false dichotomy to suggest there is internet worlds which is purely private nirvana and this communications world and which is heavily regulated area where the fcc decides on every agreement. that was a false dichotomy in the past. it is more of a false dichotomy as we go into the future. we all know that. public telephone switch network is converging into an ip network. so i think the fundamentalun question in that environment is iten appropriate to say, there s no role for a public policy backstop? i think that would be the wrong approach. i think for all the reasons we heard. >> interconnection is essential and interconnection is a key opportunity for anticompetitive

behavior and for results that would constrain the information ecosystem. so i thinkyste it's absolutely t to say the t fcc should not micromanage the process. for the most part it shouldn't be setting prices in the same way it has for regulated incumbent telecommunications carriers but i think it is important to have an fcc public policyy backstop. one of the reasons was the reason jon gave us. we don't know. we're all speculating about this because all of these agreements are totally outside of the discussions that we have ini publiccy policy summers, but, al along the fcc has been there in background. the fcc never said we'll never going to have anything to do with internet connection, what they said was, we believe traditionally this is competitive market. that we don't need to get involved in. that was a fact wall determination. the world is changing. >> hal?y

>> thanks.ha so i look at this from a economic perspective, simply what are the benefits from imposing mandatory interconnection, what are the costs? i'vets tried to lay those out ia short policy brief that was left with l you. very quickly on the benefits side of the ledger, if you force these networks to interconnect, you mightnn be able to minimize the amount of disruptions. certainly disruptions of anyone's service impose as serious cost but in my review of the episodes looking back in history of the internet we don't see a lot of disputes. ruth mentioned a few but in fact what struck me was how few there were relative to how many could have occurred. i counted about six major disputes, only half of which led to a service outage for consumers and other half that did, led to disruptions on order of three to four, to five days. so that is on benefits side of the ledger and it is something but it's not huge. if the probability of disruptions occur something close to zero then the expected

benefit of imposing mandatory interconnection is small as well. on theon cost side of the ledger about if youord startri telling networks they mc connect youon could upset the maker bye decision. you could upset goals of to discourage deployment. some point to sprint and t-mobile's reluctance to deploy their spectrum into rural areas. they point to the fact that mandatory interconnection in data roaming agreements causes them to want to take the bayh decision over the make decision. i'm worried what it would do to incentives of isps but middle mile folks and content providers are getting a little taste what is it means to be in last mile access. i try to lay out costs an benefits. i worryd costs may exceed the benefits. that would cause me to look for something a bit less interventionist or less invasive than an outright mandate orob obligation toli internet. >> gerry.

>> i'm also on an economist. i take even simpler view than hal does here. my question is what works, okay? and to note also, interconnection is not just a communications issue. it occurs in virtually any business in which the producer of something that could be canned peas or they could be movies has to distribute something to customers through t distributors like supermarkets or comcast. okay? and they all do this via voluntary private agreements. all over the economy. and what do we see? we see competitive markets. we almost never have any trouble.ro so, my question is, do we want to regulate this? for sakes why? this is working. distributing peas throughug supermarkets works. nobody ish calling for regulatin of supermarkets because of this. and why are we calling for regulation of internet access?

because it has changed? well,us look, you've got 30 yeas of success of, where the problems are at most, diminimus. why are which coming in here and say, well, the fcc has to look at this. they have to look at these agreements. we have to see whether they'reec correct. theth fcc has a pretty terrible reputation as an ajudicator. why is that in any sense going to improve fatters? seems to me this is just really clear. we have a system that works. stay away from it. >> anna-maria? >> my background is as an financial analyst following telecom for a very long time and so i have a very long memory of all of the disputes over accessc charges,e settlement rates, andn international arena,te all of tt through all of that, i think what we've seen in the way of disputes around the internet in terms of disputes over transit

are, truly minimal. and so i also come down on the side of saying, it is essential that everyone be able to interconnect but we have now several decades of history in the internet saying that private agreements can in fact, commercial agreements can get us there and barring a breakdown, we really should not be intervening because the rigidities that regulation would bring tola the system would probably create far more chaos than the occasional disputes you have between parties. >> jon? >> so if i were to create an internet from scratch, i could imagine cases where you wouldha have problems, you would have market failure, particularly if some big carrier, big providers had enough market power. i could imagine cases where you

wouldn't have any problems. i look at the internet today and i a can't tell. i can see something is changing. whether that is an indication of a problem or not i capital. seems to me if, for us to say, the fcc should be involved, we have to first be able to say there is a problem. and second be able to say they can do something to make itit better. in order to even ask those questions, i would like to see more information gathered. i think that is where the fcc can do something constructive is to try to shed a little light on private agreements to see if there is anything we have to be concerned about. >> great. that isa fairly wide range of opinions.it let's dive into thistl a little bit more. so kevin and hal, you have got sort of i wouldn't say dueling papers. but you have papers thatng comet this from different perspective. let me come back to you guys next. kevin, you written in a couple of papers that, interposing the fcc, we won't say interpose and

not say how detailed, some fcc involvement in interconnection both for voice as we make this i transition, i think you said for all traffic aside from voice, would have a lot of benefits. can you kind of briefly list some of those benefits that described? >> sure. and again, i take issue somewhat with the notion that this is a purely unregulated space where we're debating should the fcc be interposed. the fcc has been there all along even though it hasn't mandated the exact kind of interconnection rules we have for title 2 common carriers or telephone companies nor should it. i also think itie is not right o say the issue that we have private agreements or have the fcc? weou could absolutely have lotsf room for private agreements but have the sense there are certaii practices-c that there are anticompetitive and there is regulator get the data.

jon is right, we need to know more. the data doesn't just appear. there is a data appears if there is regime that says the data has to be available in some ways. there are at love ways to look at your question. what ruth said absolutely true. formally this sit of issues is distinct from the issues we're fighting about in network neutrality. this is talking i about what happens to the edge of the access provider's network. this not happens what happens on network of comcast or at&t when the traffic goes the end user. that is what the net neutrality fight is b many ways the same issue. the question is, let's say that what happened in a dispute like comcast netflix is that comcast, access provider, waste deliberately degrading netflix traffic in order to extort netflix paying it some anticompetitive fee. i don't think that is actually what happened. by all indications i read the same unreliable sources that jon does. it seeps like this was resolved in an amicable, reasonable

commercial negotiation. but let's say that is what is happening. fundamentally that is not so different from the net neutrality story that comcast or a similar company would do exactly the same thing, degrade traffic and differentiate traffic on itstr network. so to the extent that we care about the nature of the information environment that we live in. to the extent we care about openness to innovation. that we care any provider can come on internet with new services and reach customers or reach everyone else, without going through gatekeepers, that try to keep it out, to the extent we care about that i think we need to think about having a regulatory backstop on these private interconnection agreements. not just about theat disputes. it is, do we believe somehow magically this will work itself out given the way the network is changing. given we have some providers whe have market power and they have market power certainly once ace

customerrt chooses them. even if there multiple choices for isps, when you have large broadband isps, they control traffic to their customers. so i think in that environment, to say there's no role for public policy, to say some practices are beyond the pale, i think that's troublesome. >> you just, follow up this, came up at the last conversation but you think, when talking about regulatory backstop, you talk about the fcc, you don't think there's a role or alternative for the ftc in this process? >> i think there is a possibility for the role of the ftc. there are different kinds of agencies. the fcc has expertise in communications and it has more of an ability to adjudicate things in real time and just given the nature of the way things have been traditionally done, ition think just saying ts is purely a consumer protection issue which is what the ftc knows how totc do, i think that would be too limited but i think that's an interesting debate to have. i think the first principle is

to say we need to understand that there is a possibility of real harm here, to consumers and to innovationto and to economic growth in the marketplace. andc then, yeah, we can have ais great discussion about the exact methods.th in some of my law review papers i argued for specific adjudication regimes. happy to talk about that i think the first principle we can't just start with the notion anything goes. >> okay. hal, to your paper, the one that you have today, in fact for us, you look more to the cost side of the equation here. . . off 4some of the costs endeared to the system if we had more role of fcc in the near future. >> upsetting incentives of is purchases to continue to deploy and expand their networks. i also mentioned quickly what happens if now google or content provider or even a transit provider knows it has the fcc's backing when it