>> and to -- was it the director or a common policy that it be destroyed? >> my understanding, it is a federal mandate that we cannot keep lists of personally and of a viable information once the of serve the useful purpose. ..

>> the steps included the following: i was asked to go back and understand what schedule processing was going on. at the same time during the week of the fifth a special team arrived from the va office and their focus was to take the information we would gathered and develop recommendations and

give them to improve efficiency. there was a second team that arrived after i left wat was working with the clinic to make sure they were functioning in an appropriate fashion so we were not missing the resources for the valuable care. >> who was part of the second te team? >> i do not recall at this time. >> who was in charge of the va's response? >> the va's response was led by me and phillip mccowski who is putting the supporting documentation in washington together that the teams were using time prove the processes in place. >> if working groups were form

today address the allegations -- formed -- under whose authority were they formed and under what date? >> i cannot tell you under whose authority they were formed. the process began to come into play probably late in the first week of may. as we begin to develop a way forward. >> okay. what was your initial assignment when you were first asked to go to phoenix? >> my initial assignment was to go down and try to understand what was going on and the climate present within the organization and try to identify what information they did have about deaths that may have occurred in their facility. >> are you surprised by the findings in the interim report released today by the ig?

>> not at all. in fact, i would emphasize that i did contact them when i returned to washington and shared the information we found with them. so it doesn't surprise me what they reported. we had shared that information. >> nothing was a surprise? >> we had not looked at the number of patients on the list. that was a surprise. but everything else we had identified during the course of our visit. >> okay. thank you. ms. mooney, in looking at the documents the va has produced in response to the committee's subpoena, are you aware of the response includes any documents or emails dated prior to april 24th, 2014? >> congressman, the subpoena was

responded to by the office of general counsel as it is a legal action. i don't have knowledge of that. >> okay. can you please explain the difficulties that you face answering the questions posed by the committee weeks ago? >> i think in terms of week uzgo with regard to -- weeks ago -- >> when was the spread sheet that was mentioned on april 24th destroyed? >> dr. lynch didn't provide a response to the committee's request regarding the statement because the office of the inspector general was ongoing and his own investigation was ongoing and at the time my

understanding is there were no facts on which to respond to the committee's facts in the letter so my understanding is we stuck to the facts in the letter. >> is this unique to the va? when you talk about your continues, are these technical difficulties common among all agencies or just specific to the va? >> technical difficulties? i am not sure. >> well, the concern that i have is the fact that the committee asked for very basic questions, very narrow questions that would not interfere with the inspector general report and we thought it was something we should be able to get without problems but there seems to be an ongoing delay in getting information to the committee and any time we asked about certain information the standard response is we cannot give that because of our

legal counsel and that is the concern i have. the fact that what appears to be irrespon irresponses from the very basic questions. >> in the case of the susp we had have number of staff working on a continuous bases to provide them. >> why didn't you tell us about the ig investigation and that no facts -- instead of ignoring us? if the ig was doing an investigation why didn't you tell us initially? you didn't respond. >> i believe my recollection would be that as of the april 24th briefing, i believe we knew that the ig was in.

i am not sure. >> the inspector general was in arizona at the same time we were there. we did talk with them to make sure we were not in their way. >> yeah. >> thank you. >> mr. lamburn. >> first, i must call for the resigning of secretary eric shinseki. based on the inspector general report today our veterans in phoenix and maybe other cities haven't been treated properly. this report says quote we are confirmed the scheduling issues are systemic throughout the va. the cause that veterans have

died because of the waiting list is still open. hopefully it will be answered in the final report though not in this interim report. even if the secretary didn't know about this in advance, and i don't believe he did, but they should not have happened on his watch. success in the military does want automatically translate into the success in all realms. we have a failure of leadership. funding isn't the issue. the issue is hands off leadership. even the secretary's response to the ig investigation was a failure. he promised to triage the 17,000 ret veterans.

they should not be triaged they should be seen immediately. the average wait time is four months for a primary care visit and we know of similar stories emerging else where. why are thousands of veterans waiting for months when there is a system in place to treat these men and women in the private sector using fee bases? if the care isn't available at the va they can go to any hospital or clinic. why is that not being done? >> congressman, it is being done. the are plans to contact the 1700 veterans and need for care will be assessed and they will be offered fee-based service if appropriate. there is also a fee-base plan in

place that began a week ago and that is asking each of the facilities to look at their wait list, to identify those patients wa waiting for care and to offer them fee-based services if that is what they request. i am glad you didn't say you are waiting for more money from congress. the money is there. money has carried over each of the last five years from 2010-2011 $1.5 billion and this year even half a billion is carried over. >> congressman, care is the issue. and we need to make sure that if the veterans are waiting we identify the veterans and provide the care if needed >> i would view this as disaster

relief that the veterans are entitled to and the money is there. ms. mooney, i spoke with the directors of the va health care facilities in colorado and asked them about waiting list in colorado and they told me there wasn't to their knowledge but with when the information comes out in a report like this that there are systemic problems throughout the country and we have problems getting the documents we want and trust has eroded. what can we say to the veterans to restore that trust? we have a problem with broken trust. >> congressman, we appear this evening in good faith to answer. the best course of action is the one that best serves the needs of our veterans and we pledge to

work with you to get you what you need. >> ms. brown you are recognized. >> i have been on this committee for 22 years. first of all, before i began, i am going to put in the record a letter that i am sending to the governor of the state of florida. he is grand standing indicating that he is suing the va for the fact that he is sending people to the various va facilities around the state of florida and we wants to take a look at the records. you know this is the most grand stand thing i have seen since i have been in congress. first of all, the state has nothing to do with the va. we have four million people that need medical expansion of health

care that is we are sending back and they are going to die because they are not getting the quality health care we need. can you tell me about the lawsuit and whether or not the governor has sent people, governor rick scott, to the various va facilities throughout florida? i have never heard about that and i am concern it hasn't happened in the history of the united states. >> congresswoman brown, i have not heard of anything like before these instances and i would be happy to take your papers to the organization that deals with the state partners. >> partners. i went to california personally and i came back and reported to

this committee that 400 units that were standing still for two years and no veterans were in these brand new facilities. four hundred units in la owned property. we are not talking about problems that just started at va. it has been problems for years. in fact, i want to commend the secretary because let's be clear, vietnam veterans were getting the run around from the va system. this secretary opened it up and brought in millions of additional veterans. millions. and yes, we have a responsibility to make sure that they are taken care of. but i did my reconnaissance in florida and i can tell you we are doing fine in florida.

we have a new hospital in orlando soon, i hope. i have been working on it. we have a wrap around in gainesville. we have new cemeteries in florida. we serve almost 600,000 veterans a year in florida. so i can truly say i went and talked to various va groups in florida and not one single complaint because we are doing our job and that is what this committee supposed to do. make sure that the va is doing what we committed to the other veterans. and let's forget the grand standing because i have seen a lot of it. i was here. we have money for the veterans. but for years it was just the

talk. it was just a talk for years. but under this president and when we had a democratic house and a democratic senate we got the largest va increase in the budget in the history of the united states. so we do have the money. but we got to know we are not just talking the talk we are walking the walk. now dr. lynch, is there any additional information you want to give me about the overall problems with the va around the country? because i know florida is not included. >> thank you. i want to chose my words wisely. let me begin by saying it is absolutely critical that va

maintains its focus on its mission to serve veterans and its core business of providing primary health care to veterans. it is important to remember we have a good system and i think it is worth saving. the quality of health care does compare with that in the private sector. we have provided health care to over 2 million new veterans in the last five years. our performance measures have become our goals, however. we believed our access numbers but undermined the data when we elevated performance measures to goals. we were told the schedule system was challenged but discounted the reports to con exceptions not the rule. we should and could have challenged those assumptions.

this wasn't apparent while it was happening. having said that, there is a way forward. i think we must first charge or medical center and network directors to assess the int integrity of your organization. we do have the tools to monitor capacity and assign resources appropriately. we will need to establish a relationship with congress as well. this is esessential. in the 1940's, the va system was remodeled and involved academic partners and established research in the va. in the mid-80's there was questions about the surgery care and they have developed the

model and it is now used to address surgical death across the country. in the mid-90s they started to use electronic health records. we have a good health care system and we have a good foundation. we have challenges, i recognize that. i think work together we can solve the challenges and we can provide care to the veterans. >> would you please give me the documented you wanted it can be entered without the record. without objection and i ask our guest join us. without objection.

>> thank you both for your strong leadership in the area. i am going to jump in the questioning in the interest of time. dr. lynch in correspondence sent to our committee on may 7th, 2014 secretary eric shinseki said the wait lis was maintained and destroyed. is that correct? >> that is my understanding, congressman. >> how and when did you become aware of the wait list referenced? >> i first became aware of the reference and i would correct saying this was an interim wait lis. this was a work project that

when patients were canceled it was generated who was canceled so they can be rescheduled. it was a work product. >> what is va's policy concerning the document retention period specifically regarding electronic records under the control schedule guidelines? >> congressman, i don't have the policy available. >> under the directive 6300 it states disposal authority is legal obligation obtained by the united states, national archives records for the disposal of records. next question for the entire panel. what was the reasoning of destruction of said documents. i would like to hear from the panel. >> i will start, congressman. it was my understanding that

they were intermediate work products and had patient-information and when the use was completed it was appropriate to dispose of them. >> i haven't been involved in the investigation nor was i present at the staff briefing. >> what was the reason of the documents? >> i defer to dr. lynch. >> why wasn't the system maintained? >> i am not sure i can answer that completely. i think because records of patient cancelation are preserved to the overall system. this was used to let us know who was canceled so they could get

rescheduled. >> when were they destroyed? >> late 2012 and mid 2013 to the best of my knowledge. >> did anyone from the va conduct varification prior to the list destruction? >> i don't have knowledge of that congressman. >> how long was the interim list in existence and are there other documents currently in use? are you aware of documents like this in use like the interim list? >> to my knowledge there were list that were used to transfer request for care from the emergency department as well as the va helpline. i believe they were referenced in the ig report, i believe the ig also referenced they were destroyed once the information

was entered into the electronic wait list. >> who within the va is responsible for the policy of record retention? does anyone on the panel know? >> we will have to take that for the record. >> anyone else on the panel know? can you please get back to me. did you believe who it might be should be held accountable and penalized under the controlling schedule guidelines if found to have destroyed records without prior authorization? who can answer that question? should they be held accountable? >> i don't think we should answer that question. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman, i yield back. >> you are recognized for five

minutes. >> the va is a huge and complex organization with many many facilities and when and such an agencies is under besiege they run for cover. i remember in africa when they were looking for accountability there was something called the truth commission to encourage people to tell the truth. i was reminded of this by a new york piece dr. sam foot, the retired va physician who blew the whistle in the phoenix situation. he offered an alternative to secretary eric shinseki's policy. he believes they should conduct

an anonymous survey from health care providers and survey them on what thank you -- they think is the waiting times and then they should give a version to report the waiting time and if the numbers match you have reliable data and if not send the inspector general out to odd them and if the hospitals have manipulated the data appropriate action will be taken. this is a way to get reliable and action data. what do you think about it? >> congressman, i think i state the obvious when i say va needs to work hard to establish trust for the veterans. we welcome help from any government agencies in identifying problems and helping us come to solution.

whether that is the best option, i don't know, but we have valued the reports in the past. >> ms. mooney and mr. huff, could you comment? >> we value collaboration and working to provide the veterans the best care. >> i work hard every day to, you know, do my job to get the information the committee needs. >> i took note because it was the whistle blower himself suggested that we try another approach in terms of trying to get accurate information from the va employee's. is congress going to get a list from the va of what other facilities have used?

schedule practices similar to those? i would like to know if my va hospital serves my area is using the same practice. >> i believe the va is conducting a nationwide audit. i don't believe there is any intention not to share that with congress when it is completed. >> this audit is the very issue i am raising. how about how do we get a good audit and that concludes my question. >> dr. row you are recognized. >> i am a veteran and physician and i trained at a va, some of my training was at a va. it is disturbing to me we have created this uncertainty among

our veterans in the country. i think we have lost a lot of trust and i want to ask do you agree dr. lynch with the report and the findings? >> i do. >> and we have a situation where you say 1700 veterans are going to get care. why do we have to have hearing after hearing -- we are hear on a wednesday night about 1700 veterans. why wasn't this just done? the length of time these 1700 veterans wait for appointments will never be captured in a wait time because the staff had not scheduled their appointment or added them to the wait list. it is the ultimate catch 22. and here is -- and this is what

troubles me the most -- i get being overworked and having more work than you can do and more patients than you can take care of. what i don't understand is creating a list to have people waiting to get on another list to show they can get an appointment in the metrics of the va and someone gets a bonus and benefits when veterans are suffering. is that what happened? i think it is. >> i think we elevated a performance measure to a goal. and people lost sight of the real goal of the va which is treating veterans. they started focusing on achieving care within 14 days. >> i agree with you. would you say the goals that the

va set-up and you had people playing games with it hurt veterans? >> congressman, they were flawed measures and they should not have happened. >> do you think it is happening around the country in other va centers? >> i think the evidence suggested this could be a systemic process. >> what i don't understand as a veteran and doctor how you can look at yourself in the mirror and not throw up knowing you have people -- and i cannot go to the va -- i make too much money and i am okay with this. i see these people out there. they live in my communities. and cannot get in and they are desperate to get in and someone making $180,000 a year gets a

bonus. i don't get that. >> congressman, that is unacceptable. but i have to go beyond that because i have to figure out how to fix the system and that is my goal and purpose: to understand the problem and make sure it doesn't happen again. >> thank you for that, certainly. the next is to the panel. why would any information we ask for be withheld because that is creating an uncertainty among us here. if you don't give us the information i am thinking they are trying to hide something. why wouldn't you turn over the documents and they are what they they are? just tell the truth. is there a reason. i cannot understand why there wouldn't be one thing that the chairman and ranking member ask

for that they don't have in front of them. in my mind i am i didn't thi think -- i am thinking they are hiding something from us. >> our goal is to be open and transparent. >> if that were the goal the chairman would have all of the documents. >> the office of general counsel responded to the subpoena in accordance with required. and there are a few documents under discussion. >> my time is expired. maybe we can get a second round. >> thank you mr. chairman. i appreciate all of you being here to answer the committee's question. mr. chairman i share your frustration and i am troubled by

the va's slow pace response to this crisis. what happens in phoenix and clearly other facilities across the country in my opinion is not forgi able to be forgiven. as the ranking member stated in his opening remarks, we must have accountability wherever it leads us. i sincerely believe that everyone in this room wants at a ensure our veterans receive the best possible care in a timely manner but we will only achieve that goal when we have honest and open lines of communication from the va. our veterans deserve nothing less and from the top down and the bottom up the va needs level

with this committee, our veteran and the american people about what has happened and how we are going to fix it. hiding the truth is not for givable. we don't learn all of the facts so we can act upon them. we need the truth and need the va to be proactive not reactive. i wanted to make that statement and i will ask my first question to dr. lynch. dr. lynch the chairman asked a question about the greater los angeles facilities and i wan wanted to follow up on that. given the fact we are having a nationwide audit, i want to know the progress of the audits in particularly as it relates to the west la facility and i want

to know the steps that were taken in phoenix with regards to destroying the word product and documents after patients were inputed into the electronic system still occurring? is that still a practice that is occurring -- i know not in phoenix, but in other locations across the country? how are we handling patients waiting to be seen? talked about 1700 in phoenix but what about veterans across the country who are waiting for appointments as well? >> congresswoman, let me try to take your questions in order.

the audit that has been going on across our system began a week agree. the first phase is focused on medical centers and community-based outpatient clinics serving greater than 10,000 patients. it is my understanding that the review at greater los angeles has occurred but i have not seen the results. the second phase that extended to all va processes has been extended this last week. all medical centers have been asked to identify patients that have been placed on the wait list, patients who have been waiting for care, they are charged to submit that list to the va, and they are then going

to be asked to review their resources, can we provide care enternally and if we can't the plan is to contact the veterans and offer them care in the va and if not offer them care outside the va. >> how long do you think that will take? >> i don't know have the time course. i know the process has been initiated but i cannot tell you how long it should take. i think the plan is quickly. >> how much time are you going to spend assessing the situation before we would contact veterans in other parts of the country? >> i believe the plan is it should be completed in a week or less. >> thank you.

the other question i had and maybe this is for the assistant secretary -- i apologize. i yield back. >> mr. flores you recognized. >> thank you, chairman. and thank you panel. a statistical sample of files were taken and they looked to see what was reported and what was actual and the sample was 226 veterans. the original report was these 226 veterans waited an average of 24 days for their first primary care appointments and only 43% waited more than 14 days. when the ig did the study of

what happened on the same 226 cases they determined the same veterans waited 115 days with 84% waiting more than 14 days. and so, based on the sample, you have to assume that all of the appointment processes is as broken as the 226. do we know who is responsible for reporting the fraudulent numbers to the office? when you look at the facility who is responsible for reporting the numbers up the chain so to speak? >> mr. congressman, i believe the responsibility were reporting from the facility lie with the medical and network director. >> okay viteae i think you touched on this -- what is the

driver that causes them to engage in that activity? one thing i learned from today based on another article that came out is 50% of va executive performance reviews are based on wait times. that the one of the primary drivers causing his misbehavior to occur? >> mr. chairman, i don't know what medical center and vision director percentage that the wait time contributed to their bonus. i don't have that information. i will reinforce what i said earlier. i think that while well intended we had a performance measure that became a goal and that created the potential that information could be misused. >> the last time i saw an example of this it was enron

where the bonus system drove behavior and we know what happened there and i am not suggesting the va is enron but it is something we need to look at in terms of flawed bonus system driving bad behavior. we just heard testimony so far in this hearing that veterans really don't have to wait because there is a fee for service program where the va will send them out to private sector doctors. so why do we have the waiting list? are they not really allowed to do such service? >> i think we tried prior to the information we received, we felt the core business was primary care. we had tried to keep that within va. in retrospect i don't think that was a wise move.

i think we had the potential of waiting customers. >> there is a publication i don't read often that is called the daily beast but they had a quote saying texas va ran like a crime scene. before the president could deliver on the pledge the scandal has blown even further. there is an award winning va hospital in texas is in widespread wrong doing in what appears to be systemic fraud. the facility is the one in temple, texas. are you aware of similar issues that occurred in phoenix as

having occurred in temple? >> i am not aware. >> i would suggest reading the article because they post e-mail pictures of the chain of e-mails. i yield back. thank you. >> ms. titus. >> thank you for holding his late to accomidate us who have to fly to the west coast. i want to get to the bottom of my problem and many of the questions have been answered. the ig isn't going to release the names of the other facilities being investigated primary to protect the whistle blowers so i asked that nevada

be put on the waiting list. i will ask a different line of question because i think it goes to the point of priorities and i think that is the problem we are facing as we look at the waiting list issue. dr. lynch you mention you went to phoenix to check into the talks that 40, that was the number at the time, of people died from the secret waiting list. you spent the easter weekend there with your wife and then you were joined by two staffers on april 20th to work on the issue and in your words understanding the climate. i will ask you how you thought it was appropriate to turn a serious mission into a personal holiday? don't you get that?

you were postponing something that should have been looked into right away. and tell me how i can explain your actions to veterans who are worried about getting an point for possibly a life-saving colonoscopy? >> i don't play golf first of all. i take my job seriously. it was easter weekend. i thought it was appropriate my wife join me. i spent thursday and friday working at the va and monday and tuesday working at the va. there was nothing i could do over the weekend. i went back to get more information congresswoman. i think i took the issues in phoenix very seriously and i think what we found was shared with and confirmed by the inspector general and because of what i did in phoenix we were able to get people on the ground

to begin the process for making recommendations of change. i am sorry you misinterrupted my intentions which are to help veterans to make assure they get good care and see where the system is falling. >> that is our intention to and wefeel like we need to work 24 hours a day seven days a week and not take holidays off. thank you very much. we appreciate it and yield back. >> mr. lynch, you believe phoenix is an isolated incident or did you believe this is a systemic issue? >> i believe the inspector general has made it clear it is a systemic problem. >> we have asked for 18 reports that have been identified coming

back. you had in october and november of 2012 where a report came back -- you talked about a glitch in the system. this doesn't seem to be a faulty computer system that we are dealing with here. >> congressman, i think i made it clear that i think it is important that we need to keep our eye on what is the mission of the va. and i think that we have elevated performance measures to goals. i don't think that is a glitch. i think theas that is a mistake and something that needs to be corrected. i think we should use performance measures as management tools to identify where we have demand and don't have capacity and how we are going to use our resources. >> i don't think anything is clear at this point and that is why you are seeing frustration

coming from the committee. the only thing that is clear is there are 40 brave soldiers that died while waiting on a list. that is the only think that is clear. what is unclear is how many va centers, how many other veterans are waiting and we expect answers. that is all we are looking for here. so you started audits now beyond phoenix. 42 audits have been started? >> i am sorry? >> 42 audits starts? >> no, sir. 150 medical centers and our major see box and now all of the health care facilities. >> how many have been completed? >> i don't have the number but it is well over 200. >> and your intent to not share

with congress? >> i don't believe i said that. >> is your intent to share? >> i don't have responsibility of the report but i don't know why we would not share it. >> palo alto in my area conducted an audit and i sent a letter asking for an audit and review and now i am told by the unit it has been completed but we are unable to see the information. i think every member of congress is going to be looking at their local va facilities and want to know the truth. >> i am sure they are and that is proper and right. >> why is the va returning money pack to congress every year? back -- >> congressman, i can comment on that. i don't manage the budget. >> why are we not using local

doctors to fill in the voids? >> we have been using local doctors. we have implemented pc 3. >> i will share this letter with you today. but i know of doctors in my area that have asked to help out our veteran population. there is no reason if there is money in the system and waiting list why we would not be utilizing more doctors to fulfill those claims. >> we are going to be doing that. >> i will present the letter for the record and present him the other one. i yield back. >> dr. lynch we know there is a

problem here and i appreciate you making it a priority to making solutions. i am the ranking member on the oversight committee so i have been hearing from a lot of veterans in arizona and that is my phoenix even though i called for the system wide audit. i want this fixed in arizona so we can get the veterans the care they want and need in a timely way. i think listening to our veterans is key to resolving the issue. when you did your assessment at the phoenix va did that include talking to the veterans who had experienced these delays? >> i didn't talk to any veterans during the course of that visit. i have subsequently received a call from one veteran and i am working with him to make sure he

gets the care he needs. >> may i suggest we include the veterans a little more. i share the concern expressed about how do we know we are getting accurate information and i think getting it from a couple sources helps with the process. >> i don't disagree with you. i think the veteran is our customer and i think we can learn a lot by talking to the veteran and the experience they have. >> and in verifying what the record shows as far as the wait time. you have identified the 1700 patients who will be contacted by friday. can you tell us more on what contact means? e-mail? phone call? what does contact mean by friday? >> we are going to be using the central business office call center out of topeka, kansas to make an attempt to contact by telephone every veteran on the

list. if we cannot contact them we will send them a letter to make sure we have gotten in contact them and determined their care needs and planned for them as necessary. >> i represent a rural district where a lot of places don't have mail delivery or broadbrand internet access. i am worried they will not be contacted in a timely way. maybe i can work with you about suggests. i know the vso's would like to be involved and sometimes they are the point of contact. i offer that as a suggestion. >> thank you. we are open to anything that helps us contact the veterans. >> my second question is the original purpose of the hearing

which is responding to the subpoena. during the first visit to phoenix did you receive or send send any interim work product that references the destruction of an alternative patient wait list? >> to the best of my knowledge, congresswoman, i don't believe i communicated that by e-mail. i believe i communicated to the office when i came back and the staff the following day. >> thank you and i yield back. >> you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. something i read today touches on the credibility issue. i want to ask you a couple issues about it. first i will para phrase the

last paragraph of page four. to ensure proper oversight ability is not compromised and the ig asked it to be turned back on. are they turned back on? >> i don't know. >> do you know what those switches. >> i read the report at 12:30. i am not familiar with the auto controls. i will find out, i will und understand them and they will be activated. >> following up on the questions, as part of your software, do they have to be turned off or do they come out of the box on the on position?

>> i don't know. those are good questions. i will indicate we need to understand whether that was occurring in phoenix and whether it has been corrected and whether it was occurring else where in the system as well. >> it not only compromises our ability but your own thing as well. >> congressman we are attempting to put the audit tools in place and if there is anything to make them more effective we will make sure they are functioning. >> i look forward to hearing from that. i have a question going back to mr. huff, your notes were given to general counsel, correct? >> correct. >> mr. reese you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman for holding this hearing. i am deeply disturbed and upset

on the record keeping and the veterans having the quality of their care negative impacted. the veterans in my district and the nation deserve veteran. we must answer to the veterans that serve the country. anyone who combubt this breach of public trust and did nothing should be held accountable or resign. i am an emergency medicine doctor and know delays for immediate care can harm the patient. let's take care of the patients. this is the prescription to begin that process and what should be a priority right now. first, do the right thing and immediately ensure that no other forged waiting list exist anywhere else. ...

veterans in my district are getting vacated they haven't and need. >> to the best of my knowledge congressman melinda's been included in that process. and from your expectations and performance my tricks, can you comment on whether or not we have many forged waiting list? >> i cannot comment, congressman to map this time. i have not looked specifically at the data. >> okay. like ford to working with you to insure the veterans of my district and everywhere else will get the care that they need when they needed, and we can lower the waiting times of of this never happens again to any of our veterans. >> rick and i disagree with you. >> thank you very much.

thank you, and you're back my time. you are recognized. >> thank you, mr. chairman. dr. lynch all what is the name of the personages toward the waiting list? >> first of all, i don't believe they were waiting lists. >> to destroy the documents under question here? >> there were schedulers working on the process of -- >> you know their names. >> no. >> can we find out their names? >> i don't know whether we can and not. >> you talk about the motive for this. trying to do this right. you know, by complying with the rules and superfluous lists. danger, loss of information, but that may not be the motive. the motive may be complying with some of the above who want the winless to be short. i think it is important that we identify the people that actually did the destruction of

these things. who is -- what is the name of the general counsel of recommended that we don't have the items year we don't have? >> our general counsel is working with the committee on -- >> we will gun is the name of the gentleman who said that this is a matter of privilege? >> our general counsel is welcome. >> we do not and the deputy secretary. >> have you had any communication about your testimony here today? >> i met with them briefly this afternoon so that i understood exactly what our word for word was? work city of any re