go on to the -- >> let's get some response to that. i know that it's not only a matter of availability of resources, it is the direction of resources. we were talking earlier about the fact that we're seeing now a lot of high schools in this area are getting turf fields for football. baseball is being ignored. >> if i can address that issue, because we faced it a lot, you know, on the college level, you know? obviously, you face weather issues in this part of the country. we face it in north carolina in the winter time, obviously, with our season starting early in february and really not being able to to get outside and practice appropriately. and then when you do that, you're strapped for facilities on the inside. so, obviously, that goes to the core of how can you train. and one of the best ways to train when you can't use traditional methods, okay?

we're fortunate enough where we do have indoor batting facilities, but what if you don't, okay? then you have to be creative to do that. well, if i may suggest, there are, you know, secondary, you know, training things that you can possibly use. obviously, tennis balls are good training methods thatting use indoors, okay? you can also get whiffle balls, all right? and you can use those inside gymnasiums. ..

and depending on your application, they contributed considerable amount of money in terms of grants to all kinds of baseball and baseball development programs. you can reach kathy action from it's called the baseball tomorrow fund. it is kathy bradley at mlb.com. kathy dot bradley at mlb.com. >> i don't have any other credentials other than i have been a lover of the game since i was this line. but when i coached most of the parents were interested because their kids had no knowledge about baseball. never threw a ball, never hit a ball with the bat.

they just want them to of the baseball experience. they wanted to know what it was like to put even if they work very good. i remember one kid didn't get it all year and the parents were thrilled because they got to have a season of baseball. we need to find a way to infect the kids at an early age because it does cost the most but we need to find to reach every kid. if we don't come little league baseball is losing one to 2% i believe a year and probably more. we've got to infect decades as early as possible to get them -- bust into a game, the whole ball team. take them for free. would've you can do. i don't pretend that any answer but i know i caught the bug when i was five years old. it even earlier. got to reach the kids. [inaudible] >> my biggest problem that i see is that parents, how do we get to change the mindset of parents? i literally have seen parents take their boys out of baseball

and place them in football. i mean, you can go to a baseball practice, you might have five or six cars parked outside while yoyou in baseball. g20 football practice, it's like going to a football game. can't find a parking space. how do we change the mindset of the. the parents are responsible for these young kids. if these young kids are not pushed into it or experience the fact that they want to play baseball because a lot of kids do want to play baseball, but the parents, no, play football. i think it's taken right out of my class, you are in football. >> you mentioned mindset. that may be more literal than what you just said, but there's a pendulum swing away from baseball because of brain injuries. and as it is it's a lifetime for major league baseball, the union, and i said before, public policy legislators at the state, county, municipal levels to say

look, our kids are getting concussions in football. let them play baseball. so, coach, get permission from your principle to go to the city council meetings, the school board meetings, the county commission meeting, the state legislature meeting. and ask for appropriations. as doctor leon said before it's not so and resources, it's redirecting the resources. i think as a matter of when national security and then maybe preserving our kids mind and their brain and their schools, it may be time that we shipped natural resources towards non-combative sports like baseball. >> i would also like to add that are two components of this. one, we need to do a better job of educating really some of the richness of the sport. it is going to be a long road. it is going to be more at a cognitive game may be. some kids want to play, but that's what appeared comes in. the parent is decide what's in

the best interest of that young person. i would argue that baseball hands down, but through the parents perspective, one of the things that jeffrey i -- and i are addressing is the scholarship issue but i do know if some of those parents are choosing to matriculate that student or the young person over football or basketball more than baseball, even if baseball is their choice and what they do better. the reality is football and basketball more likely to give you a full scholarship and baseball is presently. so tom times that she just urges economic impact. and we plan to address that. >> i'm trying to get the question in order to hands are being raised. this jungle been over here in the corner. [inaudible] -- this gentleman over here in the corner. >> this is a league that is an alliance, all around the united states where it has maybe 12 leagues around the united states

that are sponsored by major league baseball. we are probably the only ones that actually owned and operated by african-americans. we've been in existence, which is completed our second year and we're primarily looking for african-americans, you know, after all around the country that can come in, that can play at this level of baseball to give them opportunity. we noticed that a lot of guys were getting draft, 35-40 guys get drafted out of his league and there's your african-americans. we consist probably 70% of african-american athletes from all over the united states that we bring in and just what you're talking about, mr. hammons, about expense. we pay for everything. corporate sponsorship and a lot of money through our own pockets. because when we play we didn't get the opportunity to play and we want these kids to have an opportunity to play and for something to go on for quite some time. but our problem is finding. we pay for stadium these. we pay for bats.

he doesn't pay for uniforms. he comes in, we have balls. where playing with brand-new baseballs, you know, for batting practice and so want to try to get these guys an atmosphere of playing professional baseball because it is a link to delete. since then delete has recognized us as far as being a good program, good up-and-coming program, something to keep an eye on to try to reach, ms. lewis, and i talked to william a couple times but i never got the pleasure speaking to you yet. i want to bring this to your attention, this is what we're trying to do. what we noticed is this isn't a problem that's just going on the east coast or on the west coast, you know, down south but this is going on all over the united states. these are problems we're trying to address. we look at our fan base. a lot of times we don't have very many african-americans coming out to see this thing. we have white american to come out and say man, i can to so

many black kids are playing baseball at a high level. so we are looking to bring guys in. just like you stated before, as far as having a franchise, plenty of opportunities just like mr. burnett was a. is going to be a broadcaster, we have room for the. we've internet radio. names like that. we have marketing programs. different things you can get involved in whether you play the game of baseball or not. there are plenty of guys i love the game of baseball the can play at this level, and are looking for opportunities to do something, to participate in this game and had a chance to move on to the next level. such as want to let everybody know, little kids out of, you do have people to look at, coming, you might want to listen to us on internet radio to see the things we're doing, and we need everybody that's in here to help us to do what we're trying to do, to create that atmosphere for african-americans to recognize and be appreciated in this great game of baseball.

>> thank you. let's go to the back. [inaudible] >> our home field is the national academy. i wanted to make this point that, and part of our commitment was to assist in the inner-city programs. we have to spend an hour each day, every practice day to assist in inner-city program. i just want you to say it is an opportunity for inner-city kids there, you just have to come over and find out about it. thank you. >> this gentleman here in the blue shirt. >> my name is robert. i'm a high school baseball coach. one of the ways that we have done to get kids more involved through park and planning committee clinic this past saturday. we had over 100 kids to attend. and i'm not able to show a lot

like a used to so had an assistant coach do the showing but i do chance to talk to parents. after talking with parents, the arm many ones who didn't know the opportunities for baseball. they did not know about, you can fail seven times and be successful. we have to continue to tell as many people that. ask them if your sons making 30% of his tackles, 30% of his free throws, will they be successful? we have to market that. i have a passion for baseball. i moved here in 1970, 71. i'm from cincinnati, ohio. we grew up playing baseball. i tell my kids the challenge, i coached against my high school. our players, i've a tennis ball, rubber balls, there's a wall. that's how we learn to play the game. kids ask you, how can you still had? i don't know. i just watch the guys at that. they say, you what? i could we get a constructor. you're wasting your money some

time. coach, how do you know that? i watch people play. i emulated people. i think if we have enough people like the coaches here who have a passion for the game and to what and sell the game, we can get it back the way it used to be. because i can tell you right now there our kids, once they get the love and hit the baseball a couple of times, they love the game, they will continue to play the game. strategy, technique, fundamentals. and always used the analogy, if we're fundamentals have we will have fun. if my kids are not having any fun, i don't want to coach. i have not won a championship yet but i played on some championship teams. kids need to have fun playing this game and bring baseball back. [applause] >> this woman over here. and while you're getting to her, not only watching, but listening. commentate.

because i've learned an awful lot about, i learned as a kid, i learned an awful lot not only from watching it but from listening to the play-by-play and why isn't joe morgan on baseball? anyway, joe morgan needs to be back on television to talk about baseball. go ahead your combat choice. it was a bad choice. >> i wanted to talk about editors with because what we're talking here, i have no credentials except i'm a mama, two kids, two little boys and we're talking about baseball fields and talk about baseball costs. i challenge the numbers are coming up with as far as the cost of raising a baseball player. i think looking at four to $500 to outfit them is probably a lot higher than that. >> those are average numbers. >> one of the challenges i found as a parent having the kids growing up in this league is that there's even, we go in, i was the moms have never by mice

at a two or three or 400-dollar that, ever. i would never be that crazy. however, he tried to play ball with these boys into the field and these are the kids are using bats that cost three and $400. so what do you do? you want to give them the opportunity so you sacrifice. you buy them at the back. are you buy them is that it is so expensive and in a couple of years you go to the game and they said wait a second, let's check that out to significantly. a look at the bat at that and say guess what? that that is a longer approved to be used. that's a huge process. we're investing this money into our kids and we're not able to use the equipment long-term. one thing i wanted to mention women are coming to the lakes. we're playing in a very affluent part of orlando. we looked into my sons, it was daddy's ball 100% as i want to get away from that and i want somebody to coach like it who put the basket in that position from whether it's my child or not. we looked into travel ball.

we talked about that. you addressed it. travel ball, that these were looking into in orlando, florida, two things bothered me. first of all between seven and $800 was the court for two children to play. in addition we have to travel with these kids. so we have to go and we have to pay all the fees associated with the child. the second part of the travel ball that we're looking at and was the biggest problem is that it is very unregulated. who looks after these kids? icing kids that they have practices before four to five hours during school nights, for five hours a day, 45 days a week. so there has to be some insight into what -- because when i look into it there was these kids can pitch, they can pitch today, they can pitch the next day. it's something he needs to be addressed and it's a big concern for actual parents. >> to the pitching think i just know what i coached baseball i had pitch count.

no matter how well my kids were pitching, i had a pitch count to a user went through three pitchers a game because i was not, i can what the number was but i would not allow my ballplayers to pitch over a certain -- let's go to this gentleman here in the front. >> two quick questions for the great panel by the way. first question is, have there been any ramped up efforts to reach young people where they are? is simply reached out? i was listening to one of the ringtones as we wrote up, a key town called lifestyle they were playing, but i don't see these kinds of figures that holding a bat and ball. he spoke to the. audit any plans of that? number two, as far as on the cognitive in, is there a curriculum out there that you know of? already and half of the iceberg

more baseball maximum, metaphors. reverend jackson for the penal system said for balls, three strikes and you're out. that's a great way to teach through the game. do you all know of any things for both of those men? >> no. [laughter] not that we don't want to. i mean, but we just came back from minnesota, and i was kind of surprised by the programming out there. talked a little bit about a magic dragon. we need you. i know we need, when i say we need you, we need you to pay attention, go to the game and get mad about it, the in between ending songs and the whole rent the. we need to hear your voice. how do we always get our message across? we just yell as a collective unit. i would love to bring our guys back in but, unfortunately, we

don't hug mccutchen. we don't hug weeks. we don't hug harris down pittsburgh. we don't hug our guys. when i say of them, we don't wear their shirts in the committee. there's no business in the. we bring to chains out there. where's the business in that? we've got to create business. we know we've got to come to the ballpark and be a viable entity and major league baseball. as a player you love looking up. when i played in cincinnati, we loved that. we loved the groove. you can have to -- there's not that many of us out there so we do notice when you're in the stands. we try to get that attraction. we want you to come out. nelly, he comes out to the celebrity game. allen iverson is another game -- name who can play the game. but bottom line, i don't care where we are, we are strength in numbers. so to chains.

so they are around. puffy is around. new york, l.a., san francisco, chicago, atlanta. they are around. how do we bring them into the gamecocks how do we bring them to the program? to change is going to do a concert on saturday night with eric davis insisted next year. with you put that on your calendar? maybe. you would? said yes. say yes. i need to hear that so when i go back i can do that -- i don't if they will do that on their side. but we can better to on our side. spent i know you don't want speed you saw that? >> we might need to get him out of there. >> that was terrible. >> i live in richmond, virginia, and i have one of those kids that play all three sports. so yes, i'm a busy mom like you,

and he plays music and everything. he's back there, my mr. dimple face. so he needs to make me some money. but anyway, i can piggyback off a lot of things the people of said here today. we play in mjbl lead. ifad nine teams before, played in every division. unfortunately, this year i didn't anybody back. side put him on an of the team. i have reached out, i didn't everything that pretty much everyone else done. ifad strategies of assistant coach once a couple years back. i have done things like the hula hoops so the pitcher can just shoot at that target. coat hangers on the bench, whatever i have to do to try, and wiffleball. i've been everything i could do. i have parents who complained, it's just too hot for much out to play out do. it's all of these little, you know, excuses. i costly tell them to look, i am a mother who had a child at 42

years old. i'll be 51 tomorrow, thank you, lord jesus. [applause] and so what i'm saying is i played high school softball, fast pitch. i've done all these things. my parents were right there. my father had a little team, longer than i'm alive. he's always taking kids to games and stuff like that. they don't want to go. he pays out of his pocket and they don't want to go. and this is football, this is based but, basketball that he's willing to do, and these are his, the guys that actually, that's on his little league team can visit their children and grandchildren that he's trying to take. so it's like they don't have the interest and it's really sad because you have somebody who is reaching out, you have to pay the money. you have to pay for a hot dog. somebody who has a love for the kids want to take them out there

to entertain the sport, get them involved. some going to have to work hard this year to work for next year to get my teams back to i do know what got to give them going to try to use every avenue, every whatever to try to get the love of baseball back. [applause] spent final question in the corner. then we have some presentations we have to make. >> former congressional staffer. i used to work for the late congresswoman mcdonald's. she was and cement and working with mlb and the players association to get the baseball academy in compton but i think when the challenges to near and long-term challenges is how do you get young kids, young minority kids, particularly african-americans involved in the game? you mention allen iverson. great athlete, decided to play football in high school and decided to play basketball moving forward.

baseball has historically been a great game and you don't have to be 6'5". you don't have to be 220. you've got to be able to see that ball. and be able to make contact. i think the job that mlb is doing with respect to the academy is the right thing but i think you need to expand it to places beyond the dominican republic. one of the things, just to point out, i've got little ones. they play sports, whether it's soccer, baseball or football. living in virginia, they have cut the local government and school board have cut funding for athletic programs. consequently all these kids out here, you know, if they are like mine, it's 100-$200 a pop per sport. so if you've got a kid that wants to play basketball and wants to play football, but really likes baseball, as a

parent, and if you got multiple kids, i've got five, so it gets a little pricey. lately i've been like, do you really want to play soccer? but what do you also want to consider engaging, and this is more of a point, and it may be helpful on some level. i don't know whether it's an oldie or the union, is to encourage school boards and people when they go on these rants about cutting taxes at the local level, understand that they are cutting the sports programs. and they cut the music programs. and then at some point your curriculum or your classroom sized expanse. that's another topic for another day but as you engage, i mean, look, we just got back from orlando, florida, with my son who played aau basketball. we were down there for eight days, and anybody who's been to orlando, florida, knows it's a big tourist town and you're not going cheap. so you know, i think it's good thing on the one hand but challenge, it's a challenging thing on the other hand. but i would encourage you to

keep making the sacrifices, go at it with commitment, persistence and resolve, and courage. and i think things work but appreciate, i just want to say thank you because i was there when the late congresswoman mcdonald decided to partner with mlb and the players association. and you see that academy, i don't know if you've all been to compton but everything you may have heard or thought is probably true and then some. that they fit athletes and they've got good kids. good kids made it big. come out of places like compton, east st. louis, flint, michigan, et cetera. so thank you. >> final question. >> jr richard right handed and i was a switch hitter. i just want to thank everybody that was invited out to this event, especially the baltimore

dodgers, phil lewis, some former athletes, and, of course, glenn harris, thank you for talking about me although that there because we go back, way back in the '60s, high school. and they heard about funding, and, of course, they can associate with since their 2000 i was coaching howard university is trying to find the players and i went to this organization to try to find players. i came back with like three of them. and i've been associated with them since then. on always going to appeal to anybody who wants to help me to organizations like ours can step up and do it, please. i'm going to bounce around a little bit. i coached at howard university and happen to be, our general manager is one of our place to i played against the thunderbolts. their coach was one of my players at howard university. and so the game kind of evolved.

it evolves around as you stick with it. i want to talk about countries. i even took up the game of umpire. i want to appeal to all the coaches, get the knowledge. you got to teach these guys the basics, the basics. how many outs there are. where the baserunners are. who are the basement. it's just a different. it's the simple stuff you need to learn. to teach these kids. and i tell my kids, you might not be as good as derek jeter but you can be as good as derek jeter. if you get smarter on the field, you'll be a better baseball player. [inaudible] we tried to incorporate softball. i don't want to leave the ladies out. get smart, teach the basics, and, and again, thank you for

coming, everybody that was invited. thank you very much. [applause] >> hey, bill. how do you want to do the presentations? okay. coach? [inaudible] >> before and make this presentation, i'm coaching the m.j. lb national commissioner as a gender first of this year. and i heard chicago brought up quite a few times. i'm from chicago by the way. i'm a chicago man. i just want to make two points because the coach back and mentioned about, a lot was talkitalking about sandlot. when chicago, chicago partnership, a few years back when you had to pay to rent the fields. so those inner-city 14 minutes when he turned on the news, wgn that goes rent and seize 86 shot, nine children when we can, they have nothing to do because

those communities can't afford to pay $35 per team to rent a chicago park field. when i get my tax deal, already incorporates your taxes pay for the funding of those parks. nobody addressed the. number two, it's established major league baseball is a business. the reason, the decline of african-americans, nobody addressing the fact that black dollars i'm tapped dollar in professional sports. so, therefore, if they're not eating in the stand, not getting in the seats, they're not interested in putting out on the field and less you're a superstar. nobody is addressing that part of it, but this is part. i coached college baseball and the coached high school baseball and i scouted for five major league teams so i know this like the back of my hand. just want to let you know that part. it's all about business. that's what they're investing money in academies and third world countries and in japan because they are tapping into the untapped dollars and they get them over there. they haven't good how to t.a.p. into the black dollar where

blacks commit from all of the they haven't figured that out in professional sports. that's why you don't see blacks a realtor interest in getting more blacks in the game. so i'm like you and your rep. i believe in telling the truth. >> all right. we go make a few presentations today, ladies and gentlemen, no doubt well spent. but i approached mr. forrester early in the year. the gentleman needs be recognized for their dedication and service to mjbl. i've been in baseball 35 years. i've seen peewee league. i felt that mjbl needs to honor those people that are making this program what it is today. so first of all we want to, there's a national tournament that brings teams in from all

over and we want to change the names of the awarding. no names affiliate with it. so there's people that were pioneers in this organization that we want to acknowledge, and the first one is the founder of mjbl, founded in 1966 by dr. william forrester senior and it was found as a result of this song being denied the right to play baseball in his hometown through segregation that went on in those games -- days. 40 acres later as dr. william foster junior established mjbl, 40 or so you have over 17 states that upon black baseball independent. out of 50 states, so you have a third of the states t that bring together african-american baseball players for a week of entertainment.

i was introduced to mjbl about three or four years ago. i was strong across the country playing baseball with travel teams, summer teams and i've never seen that many african-american baseball players playing baseball in all my days of travel. i've been in towns where we were the only black faces, from chicago, in the whole town. and he just excited me to see that many black kids play baseball. black teens playing baseball together with no problems going on. no shootings, nocona, none of that stuff. we have to. we have to to be that to dr. william forrester junior -- senior, i'm sorry, in his vision to start this mjbl program. so this award that we're going to present today to the forrester family says to ensure the accomplishments of our founder, metropolitan junior baseball league inner-city classic black rural series, 12 and under age group will be

entitled that doctor william t. forster division from here on. [applause] >> [inaudible conversations] [applause]

>> so that means throughout the rest of the mjbl history, when the championship is being presented it will not be known as 12 year old. it will be known as doctor forrester championship. [applause] >> another distinguished gentleman that was one of the charter members of mjbl, a college professor, he founded the free press newspaper in richmond, virginia. he was the editor and founder, and i had opportunity earlier this year when i flew in and is by one of his last interviews he did with us before he passed. you passed a few months ago. that would be, i'm going to call him doctor, doctor rabe own,

editor of -- ray boone. we thought it was only honorable to acknowledge him to be one of the blood and sweat, tears of this organization, through thick and thin. and also he came along and he was a great financial supporter of mjbl organization. so not only was he a founding board member, he also supported this program with his hard. and i think when i came into early in the year he had been in the hospital and he just got out i think that day or two and he was so -- to introduce me to him as the new commission. you're so excited to meet me and had a nice time with them. i was a little shaken when they called me and told me he had passed. utopia is on borrowed time but he looked good. and on and recognition of the

dedication committed to our first chairman of the board of a metropolitan junior baseball league, inner-city class, 14 and under age group will be entitled the doctor raymond h. boone division. i gave him an honorary doctoral. [applause] >> you will accept on behalf of of mr. raymond boone, his wife contacted me yesterday and said she was under the weather and they're going to try to get a family member up. evidently they couldn't get it, but when you have no one else when mr. boone was always there, i did not black kids were playing baseball in richmond. mr. boone had a story in the paper. if you didn't know it, you

didn't read the paper because mr. boone was going to publicize what he was doing. it was a baseball guy, and we really miss him. thank you, on behalf of the boone family. [applause] >> all right. there's another distinguished gentlemen in this room today. had a chance to meet him in person. in january during mjbl all-star game down in georgia, and i kind of took a liking to. i don't know if you like me are not but i kind of took a liking to him. this gentleman has been a part of the mjbl, active member of the mjbl and board and a chairman, let me get right -- what's your title? i've got to get right. chairman of the board. i want him to tell you himself the first 56 years now, let's and gentlemen, over 50 plus

years he served 18 years as the commissioner of baseball conference, 10 years as chairman of the tiac, retired from the state of north carolina. and this gentleman passed up his mail course required -- i'm good at butchering names i won't say the name of the church. i let him say. mr. jim a free. [applause] -- jim free. >> come on up here. i'm going to read you this to acknowledge the sincere commitment of our chairman of the board.

the metropolitan junior baseball league, 19 age group would be entitled that doctor ken free division a plot back. >> thank you. really enjoy. i do like -- anytime they're giving out awards, i like it. [laughter] >> you're going to make me blush. >> before i say anything else though i want to commend the outstanding panel of loss back -- [applause] i want to thank you for giving me an opportunity to volunteer. i was a panelist come and ask them at the end of the evening if he needs any help, call him.

so i got home that night. i had a call in my room and i've been volunteering every sense. and i appreciate and enjoy. you can tell that resignation i gave you -- [inaudible] >> keep supporting mjbl. good to see glenn and his brother, too. i don't want to talk too much. i have to tell you, baseball has been everything to me, but to let it be known, i would've paid them to play baseball. thank you. thank you very much. [applause] >> i want to thank everybody. thank the panel. i guess i can go back in the

background now. give dr. leon a big hand. [applause] >> he and his son had to catch a flighflight today, soviet to prematurely the butter want to thank all of you, particularly the young men and young women who are not today, but the young man who are playing baseball. remember that this is not just -- it helps to keep as a thoughtful person so thank you all for coming out. thank congressman scott of virginia for hosting us today, and travel well. [applause] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] >> president obama this week is welcoming african leaders to the nation's capital for a three-day summit with a focus on youth trade and investment in the region. u.s. trade representative michael froman kicking things off today with a discussion on renewing trade agreements. on tuesday president obama and the commerce secretary put his faith in a business forum looking at ways to strengthen trade and financial ties. the summit wraps up wednesday with african leaders meetings. on our facebook page where asking you whether you think the u.s. should invest more in africa. got a facebook.com/cspan to share your thoughts. news at this hour the former white house press secretary

james brady has passed away, according to his family. mr. brady became an advocate for gun control after he was shot and wounded during the 1981 assassination attempt on president reagan that left mr. brady partially paralyzed. a federal law requiring a background check on handgun buyers bears his name. james brady was 73. tonight on c-span at this years meeting of the national association of latino elected officials with discussions on immigration, so brides and the midterm elections. labor secretary thomas perez was among the speakers who talked about meeting with kids who are already having run-ins with the law. >> the civil rights division, i traveled the country and i saw all too frequently that there were too many school districts that remain so many years after brown separate and unequal. i saw the school to prison pipeline result for black and brown kids all too frequently,

access opportunity and deny. and being denied really remarkably perversely. i did an event once in meridian, mississippi, with about 10 kids who are sitting up on a dais just like me, and you're sitting right down there. and i could see under the table, there's footwear and what they all had in common was that they had an ankle bracelet on. these were kids 13 and 14 who were already in the system. and asked them, what did you do? well, one person had the wrong color tie. 1% the wrong colored sock. one person spoke out. one person was guilty of flatulence. i might think i'm not making this stuff up. and that got them into the school to prison pipeline. >> watch this year's entire naleo meeting, tonight at

eight eastern over on c-span. and all this week highlights from booktv in prime time here on c-span2. tonight a look at the middle east beginning at 8:30 p.m. eastern with juan cole and the new era, -- the new arabs. >> booktv tonight in prime time here on c-span2. next, hearing assessing veterans health care. witnesses include legislative directors from veterans service organizations including the american legion, disabled american veterans and veterans of foreign wars. a hearing was hosted by the house veterans' affairs committee. >> on our second panel we have ms. verna jones, veterans

affairs director for the american legion, welcome. mr. ryan gallucci, deputy director of the national legislative service for veterans of foreign wars of the united states. welcome, sir. mr. carl blake, acting associate director for government relations for paralyzed veterans of america. welcome, sir. mr. joe violante who is a national legislative director for disabled american veterans. welcome, sir. mr. rick wieden, executive director of the government affairs for the veterans, again vietnam veterans of america. welcome, sir. and mr. alex nicholson who is alleged to director for iraq and afghanistan veterans of america. welcome, sir. thank you all for joining us here this morning. thank you so much for your patience. your complete written statements will be made part of the hearing

record. ms. jones, if you're ready, you're now recognized for five minutes. >> i wonder how may people in this room would bet their last $40 on a longshot chance to make a trip to the. mr. vice chairman, ranking member michaud, on the other 2.4 million members of the american legion, thank you for your diligence and oversight during this crisis. the american legion has spent the last six weeks in five cities setting up crisis centers. we've seen over 2000 veterans. i've been at each one of those crisis centers and i can tell you firsthand it is bad and i'm deeply saddened. the american legion is sad and. we've to veterans and widows and children who one by one told their story of broken promises, pain, and this treatment, delays and just even death. many of them full of hurt, anger, confusion and uncertainty

just want to be heard. yet they told the stories many times on their pleas have fallen on deaf ears are during these dummies the american legion listens because what they have to say is important that we want to help. as woven into the fabric of who we are as an organization. i'm going to tell you about a minute and fort collins, colorado, who spent his last $40 on a cab ride to get to an american legion crisis and because he literally had nothing left. i met a widow in phoenix, arizona, 70 years old reduced to sometimes sleeping in public bathrooms because the va couldn't get her claim correct. she came to us in tears. we are able to put her in front of the va and get those errors fixed on the spot in our crisis center. in el paso, texas, within the first three days with 70 for veterans we would have $462,000 on the spot for those veterans.

who were entitled to those monies. i read a letter from the office of special counsel about va and the harmless errors that included a veteran waiting more than eight years for psychiatric appointment. eight years. we have veterans taking their own lives, 22 veterans today here in america, and it's a harmless era that a veteran has to wait ages for an appointment? we saw in north to lend a better put been working on lanes for 14 years. as he left the crisis center he said, i can't believe it took me 90 minutes to fix what i've been working on for 14 years. that's what we've been doing. five cities, and we have half a dozen more scheduled. we are making the extra effort. that's what it takes. we all learned whistleblowers talked to this committee about the boxes of mail in pennsylvania. you could have identified them as she said. it just takes a little extra effort but they don't allow you to make the effort.

as an employee wants to make extra effort to veterans at the va, that employee should have her car vandalized or subjected to harassment. we need to promote that kind of employ. i hope the va is listening. how about you take the whistleblowers, the people with the guts to stand up and say, that's not the right way to treat veterans, and put them in leadership positions so they can be the example for the people who work for them. you can make some move for them by getting rid of the ones who covered up veterans waiting for care so they could earn a little extra money every year or overstate accuracy to look good. i want to be perfectly clear the. this is not about tearing down the va. it's about saving the va. the american legion wants a good va for all veterans. abraham lincoln said care for him who has borne the battle for his widow and his orphan. i didn't read the part that said no and boyd if it affects your bonus. -- null and void.

we talked to veterans in every city he wants a va, place that belongs to the. they want medical professionals to understand that their service understand their needs but when the american legion says the has a problem with axis and agassi and leadership, we don't want to throughout the va. we want to help restore, make it what it should be for veterans, make it would veterans deserve. and that i told you about and colorado has been let down by the system. the system was supposed to care for them. he was broke, he felt broken and he spent his last $40 on a cab ride to get the american legion crisis and. all of his worth of possessions on his back in the knapsack. he arrived at the crisis center after close that days when to sleep at a gas station waiting for us to open. and exported were able to get him in front of the va and the gentleman was placed in a housing program and received his services that he really needed. our chairman of veterans affairs rehabilitation of american legion was so effective give it to my back is $40 because the

american legion truly believes that no veteran should have to pay for services they already paid for by virtue of their own service. we have served over 2000 veterans in the crisis centers and life-changing decisions have been made. we appreciate the support and collaboration of the va, those the employees came into the crisis centers and work with veterans and they get a great job. this is what happens when all come together and do what we know is right. while we as an organization have been on us to love, the question still remains, why did have to come to this point in the first place? thank you for listening. >> thank you, ms. jones. thank you so much for that testimony. now we recognize mr. gallucci for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. vice chairman and ranking member michaud and members o of the committee, may have of the veterans of foreign wars, thank you for the opportunity to testify and restoring trust in the va system. the allegation allegations madee our outrages and members are rightfully outraged.

plus the vfw were is the loss of trust among veterans has the potential to be more harmful than some of impropriety we have seen. when the scandal broke the vfw worked quickly to in drug on half of veterans. we advertise our help line 1-800-vfw-1899 where veterans returned to citizens or share their expense. we conducted a series of town hall and directed surveys and over the first two months we receive more than 1500 comments, most of which were negative. the vfw worked with the leadership to help resolve more than 200 critical issues. we sorted through the status to identify trends and make recommendations to fix the system. as we seek to resolve these issues we must be careful not to dismantle va or abdicating of its responsibility care for veterans. va cares are too important. many services cannot be duplicated on the sibling site. my full comments are submitted for the record. are a major issue facing the

health business is time access, even veterans who really positive expenses for the vfw still shared concerns over unreasonable wait times. to date the vfw outdated appointed schedule -- antiquated patchwork system slipped through the cracks and makes it impossible to manage commission workload. is what the scheduled system is rife with fraud and money pollution and why veteran care suffers. one veteran who contacted the gift of he shared his problems transferring into the salt lake city va system. at first va said it would take six months to see primary care. after six months to settle be another six month. later he was informed he was this enrolled because he had not been seen in more than a year. we have to do better than this. it's like august must provide the resources necessary to acquire a modern appointment scheduling system. next that if dubya acknowledges the a must fully leverage its knowledge or authority. however, the it must have the responsibility and resources to properly coordinate and deliver

non-va care otherwise veterans will suffer. earlier i spoke with a better caregiver in this her to recount a recent minor receiving non-va care. that better need a routine knee surgery but va was backlog and had to send him out for the procedure. what followed was a bureaucratic mess. acted outside provided for the operation the veteran was quickly discharged and told the hospital had no for the responsibility of meaning that enhance caregiver had to drive directly to va to receive proper medication for recovery. the vfw understands the va may have been best suited to provide both but this would not communicate to the veteran prior to the procedure. moreover, the caregiver reported that the '90s a silly was in flexible in providing basic assistance to a better who is clearly in pain while still in their care. this is a prime example of why outsourcing care is not a catchall solution. va must continue to serve as the guarantor of such care and congress must ensure that the a

referral teams and private networks can make responsible, timely health care decisions. finally, we all know accountability is a major problem for va and it probably goes to executive employees. secrecy and low morale focuses on internal processes rather than patients. veterans tell the vfw that resources are stretched too thin but employers are afraid to speak up and worse as we are today, penalize when they do. va has to focus on patients first by changing the mindset. this demand strong executive leadership and strong whistleblower protections. the vfw also worries that the current bureaucracy incentivizes retention of poor performing employees over termination and replacement. and he acknowledges they can take up to a year to fill vacancies. it's va cannot quickly hire top talent, we cannot expect the va to fire bad employees. if the va cannot find that employs we can ask the va to deliver timely only care to the veterans who need. thankful that everything the vfw

hears about va care has been been. nearly 40% of veterans who contacted us praise be a. just this week several veterans sought out our professional staff at our national convention to sure how va doctors have stated it was but others offered perspective on how the system has improved. we believe the system can work but it cannot work without congress taking action. this week at her national convention members passed a stern resolution calling capacity act and a candidate acted both chambers have agreed that these are forms of veterans receive timely care which is what our members insist congress absolutely cannot go into the august recess without passing this bill. when the current scandal broke every legislator in washington agreed this was a national imperative. however, some have recently backed off caring more about cost and the veterans who are waiting for care. we had an opportunity here. we have an opportunity to show our veterans and those still serving in harm's way that our nation will live up to its promise to care for those who defend. we have to get this right to

grab to restore trust and confidence in the va system, and the vfw will do whatever it takes to make that happen. this concludes my testimony and i'm happy to answer any questions you may have. >> thank you. not recognize mr. blake for five minutes. >> thank you, vice chairman, ranking member michaud, members of the committee but on behalf of paralyzed veterans of america like to thank you for the opportunity to testify today. it truly is frustrating and disappointing to see the things that have been reported. yet not a thing we have heard is surprising. vba members, are the highest percentage of users other the health care system in the veteran population. i can promise you that our members have experienced long delays and appointment scheduling gimmicks that have been disclosed. i'm a regular user of the va. it has happened to me. as a regular user of the va. however, we are fortunate

because pva 30 years ago develop an agreement with the va to allow us to annual site visits to fully understand what goes on in the fbi system of care and to ensure that adequate staffing and adequate resources are devoted to that system. the sad reality is that that veterans who try to access the larger the health care system do not have that luxury. the fact is that we're all responsible for these problems. veterans service organizations should have provoked greater examination of our concern by encouraging congress and senior va leadership to examine face of these problems as we saw it. meanwhile, the administration should have been fully honest about the resources staffing needed to meet actual demand on the system. not manipulating the mandated and statistics to make things better than they obviously were. finally, congress should actually listen to what we had to say as advocates. and as we've been saying for years. these problems commuters on went back to 2003 when the va had to

begin denying enrollment to eligible veterans who were seeking care because it does not have the capacity or the resources within. ..

>> i can tell you i prefer to go to my va doctor. the question was asked about the v-a cancel out. that shows that the va isn't a generic function. the hospital association representative at there and admitted they would need time to understand the nature of the veterans population before truly meeting demand. another representative said they had long-standing concerns about

reimbursement. are we not concerned that the people we turn to admit they don't understand veterans as patients and are worried about how much they will get paid. their motivation isn't our motivation. their mission is not the mission of the va. pva finds it unacceptable that far too many veterans have waited too long for care and haven't been seen yet. not a single veteran should have to wait for care and it is important for all at this table and the folks behind me to get this right. it is time for the rhetoric to stop. thank you again. i will be happy to answer any questions you have.

>> thank you vice chair and members of the committee. when the allegations of the secret waiting list came to light we were outraged but wanted to wait for all of the facts before coming to conclusion. today there is no doubt that the problems uncovered by this committee and validated by va's oig are really and must be correct corrected. over a decade ago they faced similar problems and a representative appointed by bush reported the follow and i will quote from this book as of july 2003, 236,000 veterans were waiting six months or more for first appointments or initial follow-up. a clear indication of a lack of

sufficient capacity or at a minimum a lack of adequate resources to provide required care end quote. the ptf concluded there was a mismatch in va between demand for access and available funding. as pointed out earlier at a hearing here in september of 2004, the secretary sat at this table and stated i asked omb for $1.2 billion more than i received. one year later after stating unequivalently that the budget was sufficient, secretary nickelson admitted va needed an additional $975 million for '05

and $2 billion more for '06. even when va accurately indicates it's needs they pass back a lower number in the final budget. that is why dav and ib partners have testified over the last decade that the va structure budget wasn't adequate. the funding provided for medical care was more than $7.8 billion less than what was recommended. for next year we project it will be $2 billion less. here is what was said in a report and i quote under current law for 2015 and the baseline projections for 2016, the va's appropriation for health care are not expected to keep pace with growth in the patient population or growth in per

capita spending for health care. meaning that waiting times will tend to increase end quote. in addition, over the ten years the funding appropriated for construction has been about nine billion dollars less than what was needed. and that is based on va's own internal analysis. mr. chairman, in 1905, american philosopher george santana wrote quote those that cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. the question is will we learn from the mistakes of the past? in our view, the debate on whether there is a mismatch between the demand for va health care and the resources provided is a settled issue. why else would the house vote 426-0 and the senate 93-3 for

legislation to expand access for veterans to health care that cbo estimated could cost $30 billion for two years of coverage and up to $56 billion annually after that if there was already enough money? acting secretary gibson testified about the progress made over the past two months adding more clinic hours, filling physician vacancy and using temporary staffing resources. secretary gibson testified that in order to continue the expanding access initiative for this year and the next three years va will need supplement resources totaling $17.6 billion. va's proposal would have an immediate impact by continuing va's expanded access initiative

and its purchase care. we support the supplemental approach. it has been said the funding for decades was inadequate to meet the needs and the veterans and sadly, history has been proven correct. it is up to congress to take the steps to end this and work to stregthen the va health care so enrolled veterans receive high quality, timely and convenient medical care. that concludes my testimony and i am happy to answer questions. >> mr. wideman you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you very much. we are a simple bunch and our legislation agenda for the 112

and 113th congress consisted of two things. number one, fix the va. secondly, is that there be true accountability. when people lie they get fired. if i lie to our national president i am toast and i agree with that. you cannot run an outfit where people unblushingly don't tell the truth. the third thing is they have adequate resources and i have to agree with my colleagues and we have been saying they don't have adequate resources and lastly on our agenda is addressing toxic wounds which hasn't been done for any generation. not those exposed to radiation after world war ii and it wasn't true of the vietnam with agent

orange and the gulf war victims with serin gas. they have not addressed that. it needs to change in the system. not an add-on but change in which the way va approaches their mission of veterans' health care. it isn't a general health care system that happens to be for vets. it has to be based on military exposures whether that is all of the things people talked about in terms of spinal cord injuries, vision impaired, pr prosthetics and on and on. and toxic exposure certainly. that is why we have the cancer

rates. i noticed a card from the nursing association and they are saying the va isn't talking to private sector about the illnesss and conditions that stem from the branches in terms of where did you serve, when, and what was your specialty. and it should be. because 70% or 60-70 percent of veterans don't go anywhere near a va hospital and more would and more do today than 20 years ago because the care is better frankly once you get in. but we still don't have the adequate resources and most importantly we don't have the right kind of attitude. the plantation mentality of we will tell the vets what they need -- no. how about asking the vets what they think.

here is the problem can we solve this together. not at the national level only. most importantly at the va medical center. all too often people have it all backwards. the whitehouse mandated everybody do a summit on mental health last august. so they did it. and they were supposed to meet with stakeholders and set the agenda and work together to hold the summit. that is not what happened. they had a pre-determined message and told us what we ought to think. that is not a summit. that is not a partnership. and once we change this at the local level then we will start to turn it around. i will say that under the acting secretary, there is a winds of fresh thought wafting through

vermont, hasn't gotten out to the field but it is wafting through. so people are doing what they should have been doing all along. not that we call the shots but they ask our opinion. as an example, on the scheduling system. some people were not going to ask our opinion and the acting secretary made him ask us what it was like because we know what the folks go through. if you want to change the va you change that particular part of it. forcing va to listen to the stakeholders and to do patient-centered care or veteran-centered care and you have to respect the veteran as an individual and the veterans' organization and stakeholders. i want to touch on resources for a second. we said the millman formula in

2003 was no good. why? because it is a civilian formula that is designed for ppos and middle class people that can afford them. that is who uses the va. 5-7 things were wrong with the veterans coming into the va hospital and today among the yuck youngest vet it is 14 pres t presitations but this is on 1-4. it doesn't take a rocket science to figure you will use further and further behind if you estimate the needs with that. we need to go a better way of representing people. last thing i will comment on. people are saying where are we going to find the medical

professionals. and the number of people inside have been woking on a program called grow our own. it is based off a medic program and not just former medics who become physician assistants but why not send them to school and they give back two years for every year they are in school. then you are growing your own. it is veterans who served and are committed to the system from the heart outward and we will have enough people for the future. so i commend that to the committee and that you can for the opportunity to appear here today and thank you for your indullgence because i see i'm over. >> now we will recognize mr. nickelson for five minutes. >> on behalf of the iraq and afghanistan veterans of america, we appreciate the opportunity to chair with you our views and

>> the portals are a joke to iraq and afghanistan era veterans. our members want to see an increase in the capacity to deliver critical services to

veterans especially in the realm of mental health care. the professionals and support staff must be quickly remedied. some of these and many other reforms and actions are actions the va could have pursued all along. unfortunately the va's level of cooperation and collaboration with new organizations have been severely lacking. prior to the outbreak of the current scandal, the former secretary only met with the mb one time during the entire time he served. if they didn't like what they were hearing from non-profit partners or people that refused to tow the line they were shut

out. prior to the access of the crisis they have done a great job working to repair the relationship the va and the largest iraq and afghanistan organization of families. we want to let committees know the national press club is releasing the results of the 2014 member survey. the policies, position and priorities are drive n by the survey and it showed that suicide is the top problem facing this generation. more results are available on our website and our staff and research team in our washington, d.c. office would be happy to brief you and your staff on the detailed 2014 findings in the

very near future. we appreciate the opportunity to share views on this topic and look forward to working with you and your staff to improve the lives of veterans moving forward. i will recognize myself for questions for five minutes. first question for the panel, mr. robert mcdonald, has been dominated by president obama to be the next permanent secretary. i am sure we all agree that he has his hands full to restore the trust in the va. what is your opinion of the president's choice to have mr. mcdonald run the agencies and department as the secretary? does his lack of experience of running a health care system concern you? >> america needs to stand ready

to assist anyone who is appointed as the secretary. the american legion has a history of advocating for veterans and as we stood by the others in the past we will stand by mr. mcdonald. we have been around since 1919 and will always be here to help. >> have you had contact with mr. mcdonald? >> i have not, sir. >> what is one piece of advice or area you would like him to focus on the most? >> transparency. we would like to see more transparency so things like the scandal doesn't happen again so we know what the va needs and we can advocate for those needs. we would like the secretary to let us know what is needed and to be transparent because as

long as we know what we are working with it can be fixed and work toward making sure the veterans are taking care of timely and receive quality service. >> same question. >> thank you. the vfw is supportive of the nomnation for mr. mcdonald as secretary of the va. we think the expert taste he brings as the chance of changing the taste of the va system. millions of veterans relied on things he has been in involved with and think the corporate mindset might be beneficial to the va system. and your other question about what should they focus on? i think it would be improved business processes from our

standpoint. we know the system hasn't been patien patient-centered when it should be. we think streamlining the waydition decisions are made within the va system we can improve the services to veterans. >> i will say we don't typically take official positions on nominees but in the conformation hearing on tuesday i was encouraged by the things mr. mcdonald had to say. he addressed the concerns about transparency a number of times. and while i will sure one thing he will tell you is he is going to give you his cellphone hour and expect you to call him and he will call you at all hours of the night. he seems to be engaged with the committee. i think his first priority ought to be culture. the bad actors, attitude and

prophecy stems from the culture that set. i think secretary gibson did a good job of trying to change that but you cannot change it overnight. i think the committee is debating tools and the question was asked about the challenges and the secretary made it clear that is challenge of firing people is a tough one. i won't argue with it. somebody did something illegal, wrong, immoral and somehow harmed the health care delivery for veterans -- they should be fired. but it ignores the fact that congress put that in place that changes the rules. so if congress wants to change it then so be it. the committee is looking at issues to address. and mr. mcdonald seemed committed to changing the culture and i think that is first in his mind. >> your opinion of the secretary and what piece of advice would you give him? >> i was at the conformation

hearing as well and i was impressed with this responses to the committee's question and his oral remarks. i hope he can accomplish most of what he said. in my mind the one important thing that he said was transparency. and that i think more than anything else we need to see at va. i don't know that we will ever see it accomplished but i think it is a goal that the new secretary should try to achieve so that we know what it is going on and what needs to be done. >> mr. wideman, what should the secretary focus on? >> i think the most important goal is what people said and as a means to that they have, i forget how many hundreds of communication folks at the central office of va. they are not in the business of communication but they are obinstruo obstructing and they need to

find another way to contribute to the good of the world and you need 2-3 press people. kirk does a better job than all of them and he is the pio of the committee. what it does is things that ought to be on the web suddenly become four years and drag out for months. example is just asking for job descriptions of major positions within the va which happened to me last year. it took five months to get the darn thing. and one of them they said they didn't have because it wasn't available. and that was the job description for the director of the national center for post-traumatic stress disorder. you don't have a job description? you had an attorney that could be put to use enabling veterans to get their claims approved instead of messing around with

bureaucratic junk. that should be the litmus test. and all those middle middle people at vha, almost all of them, need to go away because they get in the way of the mission. >> mr. nickelson, does it trouble you that mr. mcdonald lacks a health care management experience? >> not necessarily. he has a phenomenal business background. iva is supportive of mr. mcdonald. we were not consulted by the whitehouse but he was an out of the blue and we had to do some catching up. we support him and agree accountability and transparency

are top and tech upgrades as well. >> earlier i noticed in the audience, harry walters, and the when he came in the veterans association was so mad. he came in as a business man, no experience, took over the va and restored confidence and strai t straightened out a lot of problems. it is possible to be one heck of an administrator that time and today it is called the secretary. >> i apologize to the panel we were having a

>> i want to ask questions and commend secretary gibson for still being here. it shows your commitment to listen to the vso's. i think this is the first time i have ever seen a secretary sit through another whole panel. so i want to commend you for doing that. it shows you are taking your job very seriously as well. and hopefully we will see action as well. for each of the panelist as you know congress continues to ask the va about what they need for services and you heard comments earlier and the secretary was the first to show the disconnect between the needs and what the administration asked for. my question is to each of you if you keep it short that would be great. do we need to do appear independent audit to properly plan the va's budget?

my biggest concern has been, and i made it clear, i don't care how big the increase it is within the va's budget but more are we taking care of the needs of the veterans. it has been budget driven. we will start with mr. nickelson. should we have an independent audit to plan the va's budget? >> in a way we do. many of us here play a role putting one together and carl is the budget expert and we defer to him on theories issues. we don't have to reinvent the wheel though. we can give credit to those in use. >> the va has reached out to some places like the mayo clinic

but no one has reached out to all types of society. we know when the issue is veterans people step up from industry, non-profit, medical sector and we need to tap into the that in an organized way and including organized labor, by the way, in a way that makes sense to get where we need to get in terms of designing a system that actually can estimate the needs and put it together in a way people are held accountable as it moves down the chain. >> i disagree with my colleague, with rick, what the actual model. we went in a number of times to talk to the va budget people and they told us the model that was based on the civilian model that was revised to be specific for

veterans use. and i believe if there was transparency in the process and we could see what va was putting into that model and what comes out without omb having a shot at it that we would be better off and know what the needs are. that is all we want to know is what the va needs. i don't care about building an empire. i want the veterans to be taken care of and make sure their needs are met. >> first, let me tell you i don't know if i want to be the community budget expert reference. secretary gibson hit managing the budget versus managing the need. we take the information we have available to us, look at the actual need and figure out what we believe is the cost. we don't take a budget number and try to smash the services down into the available budget that is given. that is what the va is required to do. you asked about an independent

audit and this was one of the ideas we wrestled with: having an independent audit of the va budget. i am not sure if this is going to get us where we want but that is the idea. i think we agree with your notion and would like to see it enhanced perhaps. >> i think the vfw generally agr agrees with that concept. we testified on this when the senate held a hearing when this broke in may. the real problem is we have assessed what va's workload could be or their problems, but as we learned with the scheduling system, it is softwear that is decades old, and no accurate wait list times, and thousands of veterans waiting. and i think right now being able to evaluate the need is very difficult.

i have seen it myself as my colleague carl said he is a patient at the va and many at the table use the va for the health care and i have seen it waiting for a specialty appointment saying the next thing we have is 60 days from now. what are the options and that demonstrates there is an end user and something is missing. the capacity isn't what they need it to be or they haven't evaluated the need in they community. >> the american legion wants all resources used to make sure the veterans are okay. absolutely to an independent audit. we have to make sure there is another resources so that veterans are taking care of and they don't have to suffer like they are now. >> i want to thank mr. nickelson

for the whistle blower hotline that your commission setup. and we have heard from the va again and again and it was always things are fine and having a whistle

here is what i saw at one facility. we had the director of the va in wichita on a friday said everything is fine. and within five days they admit they had secret waiting list they knew about.

i cannot go looking through the data. are you going through the data is talking to the schedulers? they falsified the data and i am trying to see how far you can dig into that to provide more transparency. >> we have been complaining they were underresourced all along and telling the secretary they were spending too much money on people that were not director service providers. we are not guessing that is why were given more money. that is what they told us. you guys are spending them on people who never lay a hand on a patient. >> i appreciate that because we get reports and again if you heard on the other panel and the last month every single

bureaucrat and secretary and everyone came here saying we have plenty of resources. it is a cultural problem and how we are spending it. they are totally wrong or you are and we are trying to figure what we can do about it. what was said at the end was interesting. when the data is unclear, there is a lack of integrity, how do we decide to give more money? it has been a 256% increase and the number of veterans is 30-40 percent and maybe it went to overhead instead of direct care. they are lying about the data and make it up. and then he hear the way the rules work we cannot get rid of

anyone until woe get rid of the facts. we need to make sure that happens and need more money is what they are saying. and why can't they stay open until 5:00? you mean they go home at 4:30? that would add additional resources without making significant changes. those things make sense. appreciate your input and appreciate the whistle blowers that bravely showed up and said we will tell you what is happening so we can improve the system. i yield back with tat. >> i would like to make a comment that the secretary comes in and says they have insufficient funds. i have been doing this a long time and with only one exception from one secretary who said he got less that is what why hear.

other than the three years during the clinton administration congress agreed with the numbers. congress has always provided more than what the administration asks for. they are part of a team and it is frustrating to hear them say they have the resources and i don't think they would be in their position long as they told you. at that time we were asking for over $3 billion more when he said he needed $1.2. i would be leery of asking that question and expecting an accurate response unless he is under oath. >> are you saying that the secretary did in fact tell the truth? >> he admitted he asked for more. what i am saying is at that time we were asking for almost twice that amount for va's needs. >> would you say the other

secretary beside him were not being truthful? >> they are not under oath. >> they can tell the truth whether they are under oath or not. >> when have you heard anyone admit to you as part of another team that they didn't get what they asked for? >> so he is saying the others lied. >> i think i understand what you are saying. i used to be on a board of trusties and the administrators came to me and so the line. it isn't a matter of not lying or lying. that is just the way it is in the administration and that is true of republican or democrat administration. you want loyal people underneath you. so you know real quickly. if you could answer yes or no:

would you say your organizations and members want to mend not end the va? ms. jones? >> yes, we would like to restore the va and the veterans' trust in the va. >> thank you. >> we absolutely want to restore the trust in the va and build the system that has the capacity to care for the need of veterans. >> mr. blake? >> yes, our members want the va. >> we want to save the va but fix it. >> absolutely. we are all in favor of mending and not ending the va. >> let's return the other way. mr. nickelson, does your organization support the $17 billion supplement requested by the va on top with secretary gibson? >> sure. we support giving the va more resources and believes it needs

more. i don't know if that is the exact number. our concern with the number is just making sure it is well justified but making sure the va is well resourced is a primary concern. >> if it is on the table are you supportive or not? >> $17.6 number we are not defending because we have no idea how it came there. the point from our point of view isn't how much is asked for or additional is given it is tracking how it is used. i remember with in '99, $319 million were appropriated for hepatitis c and a year later they could not tell you what happened to the money. >> we approach the supplemental versus what is going through congress. >> i cannot tell you if is it is

an appropriate number. i think more doctors and nurses is part of the approach that needs to be taken. >> thank you. >> i would agree with a lot of what my colleagues said. it isn't about a dollar amount but we support providing va the resources it needs if they can demonstrate they need it. like i mentioned before, just as end users of the va it seems clear to us and what we heard from the members that something is needed. >> we support veterans with a need but don't have enough information to either support or not support. >> i take that information very, very -- i appreciate it. i see the conference is fluid. and you know, we need to really get down to the business of finding out what that appropriate number is. now the shortage of doctors is

something i have been unsure about. i am not sure about an approach that funds access to non-va as the only solution. i am unsure we will find there are shortages in the community. and this won't work unless we increase the supply of doctors. mr. wideman, i appreciate your sense of let's grow our own but the medics going to school still make us frozen at 1996 levels of graduate school education. the education is what we call residency. what you all consider supporting the expansion of, you know, there is a bill that would expand residencies by 2000 and let the secretary show where the greatest need is especially in say mental health care. >> i think we would support anything that increased the capacity of the va. but those areed immediate and

long-term solutions. it takes a while for recruitment and residency and for them to become acting in the va. we need a short-term solution to address the solution. i don't think it has to be either or. one is short term and one is long-term. >> we have 2, 000 medical students not matched with residency. they could get in right now. i am sorry, i ran out of time. >> if i could ask a question. you know, because everyone of you answered and this is an issue that has been thrust into the middle of the conference committee and that is the $17.6 billion request. it isn't even a request. okay. it isn't. it is an unfunded list.

with all of your resources, you sit here and tell me what we are saying. there is not enough clarity to know whether or not this is a good request or bad request, too much money, not enough money. and i don't think you have heard a single member of the committee say they are not willing to fund what is necessary. i want to make sure folks know no one up here is trying tear the va down. we are trying to get the va to serve the veterans that each one of you represent. and i hope you understand that. but there was a letter that was signed yesterday and while you may not have intended for it to say you supported the entire

$17.6 billion you put the full weight and support of your folks behind that in the middle of very continuous negotiations between the house and the senate. we just went over and made a very prudent offer. unfortunately, the senate democrats were not there. you guys thank you for holding the fort back here and covering. and i think that the the reason that we did it the way we did it was we have not had a public meeting for four weeks. and our intent was to publically say that the houses offer, i say the house, my offer, was not cheap on the money just so you

all know. the offer was take up the senate bill. pay for it by putting $10 billion in emergency funding mandatory up front. a good solid down payment. and extend that $10 billion out as long as it will go because i don't believe they will spend it in a year. i don't think they will do it. i think they will go into the second year. and for the second $25 billion, we go three regular order which is what you were saying. oversight, what is it for, each of you probably not on purpose has said we need more docks, we we need more this or that. and i have not heard and you may

have said it before but look for efficiency in the system. efficiencies in the system whereby doctors are only seeing six, eight, ten patients a day. that is not enough. mental health providers that are only seeing patients two hours out of a day. as my colleague said expand the office hours so the infrastructure that is already in place can be used to supplement the doctors that are dollar. so we are all in this trying to work together and we said let's do the $25 billion through normal process and regular order. and look. we are right now negotiating, well i don't know -- has the senate passed the bill? no, the senate hasn't passed va

bill but the house has. if we need to inject additional dollars that is where we should do it. it isn't that we don't necessarily think that money may not be needed. if we don't know and you don't know either. so we are asking for clarity from the va. the secretary and i have talked about it. two pages of documentation for a $17.5 billion request. and we have another secretary coming here yesterday and when asked particularly about the request she didn't know how the answer it. she said whatever they are calling it. we can't work that way. you wouldn't want us working that way. you could not do your jobs

working that way. we have to know what the money is going to go for, what it is being benched mark against so we get this right. this is not a partisan issues. it is not partisan. mike and the other members on the democrat side and all of the republicans have done everything we can to make this a bipartisan issue. i have tried not to walk too far out in front of my ranking member when it comes to subpoenas or letters or anything that i do as the chairman of this committee. if he is comfortable with signing something i asked for his signature. if he is not comfortable that is just fine. not a problem. because we do come from different districts. we serve in different caucuses and i get where that comes from. but all of a sudden this morn g

morning, it is being said in the press that this is devulved into a partisan negotiation. no it's not. it is an american negotiation. it is for the men and women that you sever. it is for the men and women that we serve. we cannot fail them and he can not get it wrong. we have to get it right. and sometimes it takes a little bit longer to get it right. but we are going to get it right. i promise you we are going to get it right. and we can do it with your help. everyone of you. because you have all been great help to us as we have gone through this process. >> can we comment, mr. chairman? >> let's go to mr. brownly. i appreciate it.

that was my five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman and i guessed based on what the chairman said i think that is a good segue to hear what you have to say in response to some of his comments would be my questioning. so, i can start on either end. >> mr. chairman, i was going to say i don't think i would disagree with anything you have to say. if we have a concern i am not sure there has been enough focus on other than the culture of the va. i think that is the first thing that needs to be fixed as i said in my statement. but i am not sure there is a discussion on what to do about the capacity problems in the va. >> will the gentlemen yield if you allow him? >> absolutely. >> dr. winston sat up there and asked how much does it cost the va to serve a patient and they

could not ask the question. we asked the question what is the typical panel of patients, how much does a doctor see on a daily bases and some people couldn't answer the question. so the focus is on doing whatever we need to do and that efficiencies inside and capabilities on the outside. and that is why the choice people, and i will going to be real honest with you, some of you, haven't gotten spun up about the choice piece when you could have because a lot of people in the past said that is a way to tear it down. that is not what we are drying to do and i don't think there is going to be a fleeing from the system. i think many people will stay in the system. we have focused from on oversight perspective. we have not been able to get the answers we have asked for. i would be happy to share the

list of questions and the lack of answers we have received. there has been a lot of focus on the outside but there has been focus on the inside. i yield back. >> the point i would point out about how much does it cost preparation? there is a priority one and cost per patient. >> why can't they answer the question? >> i don't know. i could pull that number out. >> you need to go work for the va. >> from a vfw perspective we understand everything you are talking about, chairman miller. but our members are frustrated. in st. louis the member passed a resolution insisting that congress pass the bill and send

it to the president before the august recess. and the frustration comes from the fact that this was a major priority two month uzgo for each chamber to get together and outline priorities and get together and move on it. our members don't see progress. instead they see a changing that used to care about cost. >> will the gentlemen yield? >> yes, mr. chairman. >> we were trying to tell the american people what we were doing. quit trying to negotiate behind closed doors. do this in pubpic so people know what is going on. there has been a lot of work that has done on in an attempt to negotiate this and i think everybody has said the intent isn't to leave unless this is finished. we appreciate the urgency which

which vfw expressed but there has been a lot going on and today we hold a public hearing and the senate boycotts. yield back. >> i yield my time to mr. wolf. >> i didn't mean to take your time -- >> thank you. we are using her time on this. the chairman and i are friends and know that no body does passive aggressiveness like they do. this isn't a conference report and you are a friend of my trust. >> will the gentlemen yield to

me? >> let's go back to the beginning of how the conference started. all right. the last conference committee that was held many of you were probably here in 1999. the senate chaired that conference. so it comes to the house to chair this conference. at the beginning of the conference there was discussion between myself and mr. sanders as to who was going to chair and i said let's go co-chairs, all right? i asked the senator earlier this week if we could do this yesterday and he said, nope, don't want to do it yesterday. all right. we were trying to negotiate all day yesterday, trying to figure out when we could do this