reasons. >> based on the years that i have lived overseas and studied overseas i have never seen anything like it. so if people think their freedoms are crazy good here i have something else to tell them. they are not. >> thank you. do we have time for one more question? sir. >> i had two questions. first a measure book the first book that has written and researched deeply into the subject? >> now, there have been, there are other books. there are some really good books out there. operation gatekeeper by joseph nevins or dying to live. border games by peter andre is. timothy dunn wrote about the militarization of the border.

from the 70s to the mid-1990s. there is a lot of books. i think this one is looking at a post-9/11, looking at this kind of rapid expansion, looking at different civil liberties issues and i would like to think that it's you know, it covers new ground but it's definitely on the shoulders of giants as they say. all this great work that's been done around border stuff for years and years and years. >> my other question is has there have been any interest among legislators in your book, in the issues that it has raised specifically from your work? >> beto o'rourke is from el paso. i mean i don't know but i know beto o'rourke he is a congressperson based in el paso,

texas and i believe he is pretty interested in it and we have had some back-and-forth. he is a u.s. congressperson. i know it has reached his year now his desk or his ears and i imagine because he actually communicates with me about it, i imagine that hopefully, hopefully it's been seen by other congresspeople as well. >> none of our congresspeople? >> none who have contacted me. but i don't know. [laughter]

c-span2 created by the cable tv industry and brought to as a public service by your local cable or satellite provider. watch us in a.d., like us on facebook and follow us on twitter. >> the book "migration miracle" examines how religious groups assist immigrants from mexico and central america and their faith inspires them to make the journey north north. booktv interviewed the author jacqueline maria hagan a professor at the university of north carolina. this is a half-hour. speedy. >> host: unc professor jacqueline maria hagan what is this picture on the cover of your newest book "migration miracle"?

>> guest: is a cross and is a cross on top of the mountain and the mountain is situated along the u.s.-mexico border and its symbolic of the many migrants who have died in their attempts to cross the border into the united states doing so without papers, without authorization and as we know, as you may know and the media has told us the numbers of fatalities are increasing and i think this year there were 400 deaths including two central central americans and mexicans crossing into the united states. so that cross symbolizes their crossing experience and the title of the book "migration miracle" is basically taken from the words of migrants who often described their success as america.

>> host: how did those 400 i? what were the causes? >> guest: of the causes ranged from being killed by a smuggler to suffocating in the back of a car, to asphyxiation to drowning in the all-american canal or the gulf of mexico. many died in the desert you know not being able to reach food or water and left behind. many of the migrants who traveled here without papers are uncertain about their journey and so it's organizing increasingly by multiple coyotes and it has become much more organized and it's much more difficult for migrants to rely for example on a single person that they may know that has migration experience to take them across the border so as the borders become heavily militarized, and there has been

more campaigns along the border it means that migrants have had to find more dangerous ways basically to reach the united states and rely increasingly on organized trafficking to get here. >> host: professor hagan is there an average cost these migrants are paying to get across the border? >> guest: yes, and it has skyrocketed. if you are in the mexican side of the u.s. border and maybe in one of the border cities, it might cost you eight or $900 but if you are traveling from a small hamlet in the highlands of guatemala it could be upwards of $8000 and it often involves having your families home put on hold in ransom so it's an enormous amount of money and most of it is paid upfront.

half of it is paid up front in most cases an half upon arrival and throughout that time the coyote carry all the papers that would document that person like passports for certificates and soap or so they are really at the mercy of the persons bringing them. there are many good coyotes but there are also many unscrupulous so it's a mixed bag there are. many stories from migrants to smugglers came across and found them in the desert and help them in other cases where they were told that they would be left behind. >> host: how much time have you spent on the border near work? >> guest: oh god showed been doing my fieldwork since 2009 but i spend time at the border before that because the project that really motivating this was a study on death of the border and it was about trying to enumerate for the first time the

actual fatalities of migrants so i visited a number of coroner's offices and talk to religious leaders along the border and hospitality homes and safe houses to get an idea of what was going on and that kind of motivated this larger project to understand how they managed to survive and place meaning on the migration journey itself. >> host: did you meet with coyotes? >> guest: yes, i met with coyotes but not, i met with the coyotes when i had to pick up some migrants at the safe house and i had to bring extra money so that they could be released. often what you find is a situation where you are right that the safe house and they call a family member in the states and ask for additional funds even though they have paid the amount and in this case, i

knew the young men personally. i was able to secure the funds and able to go and meet with them and the coyotes. >> host: migration -- "migration miracle" one of the first things you say is this is organized into six parts. leavetaking, dangerous journey, churches crossing the border, miracle in the desert and lock on mesa. what is leavetaking? >> guest: leavetaking is the first stage of the migration process, the decision-making whether or not to leave and when the decision is made to leave, when to leave. so it's about thinking about the cost of the migration. it's about leaving one's family, one's community. all but one holds dear and most of the migrants in my study they

have no alternative. and it's a very difficult choice. many have never been to the capital city or a large city in their own countries but they were migrating across thousands of miles and more for 45 border so it's about making that decision and often, excuse me, migrants will turn to family of course to discuss leavetaking and is all a sending a family member to make wages to support the family left behind. migrants increasingly return to religion both add a personal and institutional level. it's basically religion is the institution that they trust. it's the one institution they can identify with mostly and

it's expressed in numerous ways but often and very often through counseling and blessings. one of the interesting findings across all the groups and all of the different religious faiths was in fact this reliance on migration blessings before they left. they found them very powerful. almost an unofficial passport. a spiritual passport, something that carries so much significance for the migrants themselves. so that's about leavetaking. >> host: when these young people, mostly young people in guatemala or mexico or wherever, are they mostly male? >> guest: is increasingly more and more women are coming. >> host: so low? >> guest: low? >> guest: osolo, and children.

i can recall one instance in the border town right on the border of mexico where i encountered a young woman with a baby baby. baby must have been one or maybe two years of age and she was praying in a church about christ which is a very important religious icon in guatemala. it's the pattern of guatemala and when i talked, when she was praying -- trying to locate someone to travel with her across the border she realized it was too dangerous to travel alone. increasingly some women are coming to join their husbands and some of them coming for work. most of the time the women are going to be escorted by coyotes and do not attempt to travel alone in the family has savings prepared for the migration journey they are more likely to

provide them to the woman because of the extra danger she might face such as rape. >> host: what are their impressions or what do they think the u.s. is like? during this stage? >> i don't think they think of it as the american dream as they did when i started my migration research 20 years ago which was a common expression. i think now they recognize that there are serious risks and in many of the interviews they are thinking more about the journey, the fear of the undertaking of leaving the possibility that they might not ever see their family again is very real. that is i think what has really changed especially after 9/11 with the buildup at the border. it's becoming so dangerous that

religion is taking on an increasingly important role so where we used to think about understanding international migration and documented migration scholars have long relied on economic and social explanations and i think that reflects the types of questions they ask so if you ask a migrant why did you leave or why are you coming to the states, they will tell you for economic reasons. if you ask them why are they going to philadelphia versus washington d.c. because they have family networks but if you ask them how they survived and how they made sense of the experience, how they manage to leave community and family they will respond with gods help, with faith. that's really been -- this book is about the role of institutional religion. >> here is chapter. her book.

what does that mean? >> guest: the theme of churches crossing borders is about the growth of a new sanctuary. we think about old sanctuary and we think about the central american salvatore and the fled in the 80s and came and sought sanctuary in churches in the united states. we have an informal network of religious organizations and churches that stretched from guatemala proves the southern united states that care about serving migrants by providing them shelter, food, blessings, counsel but also advocate on their behalf. so among the religious leaders and churches in central america and increasingly in the united states they have become very public as we know about the

immigration matters and they are very concerned about the dangers that migrants face in crossing the borders. for many religious leaders migrants have a right to migrate to feed their family so this is about defending their right and providing them with a safe journey. that is churches crossing borders. >> host: to the churches have an opinion on the fact that president obama's administration has had more deportations than any other at administration? >> guest: yeah. that's basically denying the rights from the church's perspective. my understanding is obama meets regularly with church leaders and regularly with protestant leaders and catholic leaders at the bishops conference. the argument from the religious perspectives argument is that the policies are not humane.

they are not fair. migrants are treated fairly. the state has the right to deport somebody but it's often the way it's done. family separation. somebody picked up a work site in the children are left at home or their children were put into foster care and that's in another increasingly important phenomena. the separated families of the churches concerns are the conditions under which they travel, that they are provided with fair treatment, due process and you know if somebody arrives and works and earned citizenship they should be provided that opportunity to naturalize and become a citizen. >> host: jacqueline maria hagan how did you get involved in this work? >> guest: the particular project or the migration?

>> host: in general general. you said you have been studying it for 20 years. >> guest: my father was in the foreign service so i migrated a lot and my mother is from coast to rico so i spent a lot of time in latin america. >> host: are you fluent in spanish? >> guest: yes. i stumbled into this project. it was very interesting experience. i was in the highlands of guatemala doing my dissertation and i met a young pastor who invited me to what he called a fast celebration and we journeyed up mountains. it took us several hours and at the top of this mountain sacred grounds was a group of mayan women and men sitting on cold stones deep in prayer and in

front of them was an evangelical pastor speaking in tongues. it was at that moment, that experience that i heard migrants, i mean people stand up and request assistance and god's help with the journey. i realized there was migration counseling going going on in that something very new and latin america. the clergy has always been there to serve the poor, to meet their needs about jobs or poverty but the migration council aspect is new. >> host: another section of your book, and miracles in the desert. >> guest: when churches unavailable migrants create their own shrines. they create their own religious companions so in certain areas of the desert you actually see humble shrines created out of stones, out of sticks.

some of these are marked as graves that others are places they stopped to pray. they wear medallions with holy cards with images of their saints and those are their companions on the journey. we went under trellises and freeways throughout the border where they have been great with stones god help me. >> host: did you personally sneak across the border? >> guest: no, i didn't. >> host: so you would walk a long? >> guest: yes. i have seen artifacts and objects and possessions they are forced to leave right before they cross on the mexican side. there you also see lots of crosses. they are told they cannot bring anything with them. >> host: what is lost from mesa?

>> guest: the promise. if i make it and return i promise to offer something to god or to my religious idol and that is expressed in numerous ways. it is expressed upon arrival by going to the closest church you can find. it doesn't doesn't matter if you are protestant and you go to the catholic church. nomination doesn't matter. it could be -- in an extreme case it's returning home to provide things at some point. the first place the mic or would, they often make that journey without papers as well, is to go back to the icon. it may be by sending tied to your church at home. in some beautiful cases it involves mothers lighting candles, white candles to

laminate the way for their children and when their children arrive they lit a candle and called their mother or father and then the candle was blown out of the other end. so what was the way of connecting across borders spiritually. >> host: professor hagan what is the significance? >> guest: from a theoretical perspective it's about introducing religion into rational models of migration. it's about recognizing, you know we live in academies for very long time treated migration assays totally secular socioeconomic process and i really wanted to bring the human face to the migration picture and try to understand migration through their lived experience is which then took me to save and organize religion.

it's also for them. there are three or four key people that are reintroduced in each chapter. these are women and i have kept in touch with them. they have now read this book to their children. >> host: are they'll over the u.s.? >> guest: they are all over the u.s.. one is here in north carolina, several in texas, one in new york. >> host: still illegal or undocumented? >> guest: one is documented in the first thing she did when she got her papers was fly back to her hometown to give thanks. >> host: and she is back up your now? >> guest: she? >> guest: she is back appeared now. she is has done very well. she and her husband both are owned businesses. she's involved in a local church. her children are doing well in school. >> host: professor hagan and in all your years of studying migration what do we not know about it and the effect of its?

interview? >> i think we don't know enough about the context in which migrants leave. we don't understand it. it's treated as something that's voluntary and we do not recognize its in desperation often. i think most of what we study in migration we do so once the migrants have arrived and so we really don't understand the context in which they be in the context in which they travel. when i talk to people about the actual journey they are a maze. when i talk to people about how many people actually died crossing the border they are surprised. i think the academy's concern and policymakers concern has been with their experience here in the united states and the cost to our economy. rather than looking at the human

side of migration. >> host: have you interviewed the border patrol? >> guest: yeah. >> host: what's your opinion? >> guest: well, it's mixed. interestingly, the migrants interviewed had been picked up by border patrol generally. >> favorably about them. so you know when i went and interviewed them many of them felt that this wasn't the job that they thought it was going to be and it's an impossible j job. you would have to have every border patrol agent standing you know hand-to-hand along the border to really control the borders. they recognize that it has led to increased crime and increased smuggling along the border and

they are trying to do an impossible job. from the migrants perspective there's not really a negative expression that you would expect. they feel generally when they are picked up, there are picked up because they often need to be treated at a hospital but also their creed -- treated quite well. >> host: professor hagan when you are on the mexican side doing your work were you ever fearful for your life? >> guest: noem. i would be now. >> host: why? >> guest: because i think organized crime is so inter-played with migration. right now what you find increasingly is migrants are relying on coyotes who are relying on rented space from traffickers who are smuggling people and arms and drugs. so it's much more dangerous.

it's not a game that was played when i was doing my research. it has become very dangerous. migrants are not only confronting the dangers of the coyotes but are also co-opted often into drug smuggling and human smuggling and arms smuggling. >> host: has the catholic church or other churches moved into the border areas that last stage stages you call that? >> guest: no. they are usually located in well-established crossing towns and urban areas and there is lots of desert and there's lots of unfamiliar area to desolate territory throughout central america especially in guatemala where you have a lot of drug trafficking going on. as we came down on mexico when we came down on colombia which is really redirected into

central america. >> host: what do you teach at the university? >> guest: what do i teach? international migration at the graduate and undergraduate level. i also teach family and i have taught religion, development but my favorite course is migration. >> host: what is similar about the current i gration patterns from mexico to the u.s. to past immigration in the u.s.? anything? >> guest: the composition has changed. there are more women. there are more and more attached the youth. so unaccompanied minors has become a huge part of migration to mexico. there are more and more leading leaving. it used to be that migration is more selective have to have some

resources to make the journey but the situation has become so desperate especially in honduras and parsa salvador so it's really putting the youngest in the poorest and more and more women in more and more danger. >> host: anyone make it on their own without spending on a coyote? >> guest: yeah. there are seasoned migrants that would travel in groups but our border enforcement policy has really beefed-up campaigns and selected crossing points were migrants historically crossed and in doing so, they diverted migrants to the more dangerous spots. so, many of the routes they are taking are unknown and on certain routes but yes many migrants, they still cross in groups and alone. if you have to go to a border town in mexico now and there are

groups of migrants who have been sent back and they are sitting there waiting for the opportunity to come back across. when they leave they will be sure to stop and get the blessing of a priest. >> "migration miracl

this is an hour. >> welcome to the sixth annual tucson festival of books. i'm professor of spanish in the director service and the moderator of the panel.

we would like to thank the city of tucson for sponsoring the venue and tama county. the presentation will last one hour including questions and answers so please, hold your questions until the end. at the conclusion of the station people go to the signing area to meet you and autograph the book. and out of respect for your audience and members please turn off your cell phones right now. [laughter] thank you. i would introduce the authors then we would begin with the presentation that hopefully will have enough time for more commentary toward the end.

the chief migration institute at the institute of arizona with collaborative disciplinary research into how the border enforcement is in that community. with water and health, research management and also he authored a book in mexico and with that we would like to begin with the professor. >> thanhispanic thank you very h everybody for attending here. some of the complexities of living on the border as it relates to immigrant subjects

have been considered so in that particular book as you might imagine, we address this particular issue by the viewpoint of researchers who are out on the border trying to research this phenomenon that we are all familiar with. some of the things we've learned from this exercise is the complexity of the environment as it relates to research. most of you that have lived here we live in a very complex environment. we have commerce, we have immigrants, we have smugglers, travelers, tourists into some of the things we've learned in trying to navigate the actors on the border is that each one has its own story to tell and as researchers, the field is open

in terms of putting the stories out and in terms of the struggles, the success, the enforcement environment and has a complex mixture of 50 but these goals as they are often. so this book came as part of a binational collaboration in which we sought the papers and researchers to come together and speak about the challenges that they met practices in terms of the challenges of trying to have a scientific research project where everybody seems to try to avoid you so the issue is immigrants with a lot to do is

put as much distance between the border in themselves, so basically it comes to finding them, sometimes chasing them down and in some cases immigrants were tired. they really don't want to speak. they do but sometimes you are catching them in between the routes. you are catching them between where they left an in where thee already suffered impoverishment and they just want to get to a safe place. on the u.s. side of the border, that hardship continues as they try a mixed the laws that wallst prevent them from reaching the full potential.

how can you ask them questions without them feeling uncomfortable or feel threatened by those questions. how do you gain confidence and respect for the plight when knowing that all around them they are very mistreated. so those are the social factors that are really important if thewewant to get to the truth oe matter. many authors have talked about the difficulty of the immigration status. in that sense we have tried to address the questions in order to get the truth. so, these are some of the challenges that we face. we have developed 35 authors in

the papers about the challenges that they experience while doing research on the border and contending the violence. this book is financed in part with a grant from the department of homeland security which in itself caused a lot of ethical dilemmas in a south. [laughter] it turns out that after we proposed the project and they approved they lost interest and

what we are writing and finally decided that they were not interested in knowing what we were writing. [laughter] we reveal the information about the situations while taking money from an organization whose motive for existing is to prevent the crossing. so i will leave that for now and give the time to make leaks. >> just a reminder to the audience, it has a lot of topics so the panel decided to focus to

begin a conversation but there are so many things here you read the book and learn a lot. thank you for joining us for the discussion. at this point in american history from the foundations for 75% of americans were in favor of a strongly in favor of the immigration reform. but very few knew what type of immigration reform would make a big difference. we are delighted that all of you are here because in one way or another it reflects a curiosity and interest in the complex mosaic that makes up the mexico border and beyond in both directions deeper into mexico and into the united states. the border and many on the border region.

it's a mosaic of sections that have different ecologies and politics. they have a mexico site and u.s. side on the collaboration with mexican colleagues in terms of trying to get a grasp of the dynamics of the region. too often we have books written by people either putting down from new york saying i got it after three days, or someone that doesn't read spanish and doesn't want to go over to the other side because they heard that it was too dangerous and then coming back and writing a long article. and so our challenge has really been to approach this book and the topics in this book by

getting multiple voices and primarily the voices of people that have gone through the migration service but also those that have built this enormous infrastructure in many ways the militarization of the border's. they wanted to capture these voices and it raises issues about how we know what we know. it relates to public policy and we took our findings brought to the press and to try to get them disseminated to the broad audience in the broad cases or to alter or create a dialog for changing. the authors of the book explore

the different methods that have gone about a and in some cases it means and i had a team including research and carefully put together examples and the different parts of the border that's one way of approaching and gathering information. they all detailed qualitative interviews in which a day are listening to people tell their stories about being a

deportation experience into being in deportation and deported to an area in mexico that they've never been before. there is a whole range will go into and a whol any whole methos that we try to capture. these are approaches on the careful questions but even more careful listening. >> thank you. i know the sort of questions and thoughts that emerged that we were thinking about in this particular panel was the idea of border images and what kind challenges they face while working on the field to actually work within the border and on the border reaches in the media.

what are some of the limitations and what are some of the opportunities that they could totally different story about in one of the voices to paint a different picture in different mapping. >> i am not one of the authors of that. i'm here because i'm so excited that to me this about is kind of an ethics handbook for people that are going to do this stuff. scott is too much of a gentleman to call corporate backers but i call the thing we are discussing here my day at the zoo where people go to the loyal animal park and then they will present you a book about the kid in the inner life of the tiger. no, not possible. and it's been my experience -- look at me.

it's never lost on me that i could be walking down the street with sicilian friends and they could be asked for their papers and all he would have to do is say go patriots. [laughter] the border is not what people assume it is. my beloved friends from el paso are over here. it's maybe not as we assume it is. but the question of the border image and what you are seeing in my opinion and i opinion and ite right things is not what is on the ground but it's what is in the eye and the person that walks into right about that place is walking in a. to represent the border or whee the borderlands or arizona, a state that gets kicked around as well lately.

people need to understand and do the due diligence and have a kind of code of ethics in my opinion. it has been a great revelation to me after all these many years of writing books about the region or admiring people who do the work. to quote the looks they are taking image and they are presented as their own image. one of the greatest gifts i probably ever got was working on the devil's highway and having to find a way into the u.s. border patrol. in the unlikely partnership i can promise you and you know what has happened since, one thing i realized is that in mexico and i'm sure that my

colleagues will agree to this ts that you go into mexico and people know as little about the borderland as people in iowa city. i used to probably last year here in fact i was feeling spunky and i said if we were born in mexico if we don't have an immigration gland that kicks off at 13 this is in the learning process of necessity and complex issues and people in mexico don't have any idea. and it's been a great gift to me and i will pass it over to the true scholars and you may see it here. they know if you are lying or misrepresenting and they will

steer away from you and they want your story and you will fly further into fiction. i started realizing here that there will be nicely dressed gentleman in jeans and a short haircut at the head of my line. at the end of the line they will be well dressed gentleman in jeans and they will come around and say u.s. border patrol. [laughter] and i would tell them you missed the front of the line. [laughter] this is the world that's complex and i think what pains me into this is just me as a writer is losing the sense of fraternity and family in chile and hope that also exists. it's not necessarily a hideous scar that divides the cultures.

it's also where i am from and we have all of this history back and forth. so i love the fact that from now on on record here is a book people can go to and say maybe i should check. maybe i should establish a sense of ethics on how i report these because they are all human lives. they are not animals in the zoo. not on this side and not on outside. >> as we continue the conversation the relationship of presenting the stories. >> the border is in a very special place and the challenges we often have the stereotypes of what an undocumented immigrant is. here especially in tucson i

always consider that we live in a bubble and here we have higher tolerance, 100% tolerance for those that we know are coming from across the border and are friends and many cases relatives and more than our gardeners were domestics. they are the people that we bake bread and share our lives with. one of the important things especially on the border is that this was part of mexico and as a result of that there is a family tie that over the years and generations have grown those families include recent immigrants and people who are citizens are based on a different legal status. this is who we are here on the border. this is who arizona is.

it's important to remember it's not the person that is trying to cross the border perhaps now as we see treated like an animal that is the neighbor, the friend of tomorrow and one of the questions that we were addressing is where is the future in this? how does it contribute to the future vision or how they contribute to the future and which everybody is welcome and everybody lives in a peaceful manner side by side and i think that is one of the important things that is all a part of as scholars and anybody that lives on the border. the enforcement on the border is not working. we've seen it countless of times to keep people from trying to

survive. it's part of the larger nation of immigrants, one in which we learn to live in religious peace over the years. as we become immersed in the literature and the books about the border and about the hardships often times they are part of the stories as they try to cross and encounter the hardships we read about including the outcomes that some of these produce.

>> so what if you go do the research project and so what if you write a book and an article. how is that going to lead to some of the critical changes that are needed to protect people's lives and bring about another level of justice. the research does acknowledge and give power and lead to challenging policies and we could be here for weeks are giving if they do or not but for

us putting it together the volume of the nature that is a haunting question as you do research with people because the people that were working with and interviewing the difference is this going to make from when you have to look at it and we have colleagues that say our job is to tell the story to get the information out to open peoples eyes to help people look at the multiple angles and implicatio implications. at the same time, we have to move forward believing that we have an ethical obligation to betray the situation circumstances, lives and

structures and that means the structures of power as accurately as possible and they wrestle with those components and you never know when good research is challenged. it gets challenged before it gets published or will it be from the border patrol clicks and i have a quick story that happened this week i went with a set of ngos from the tucson area to the border to central office here in tucson with the publish

policy leadership raising the issue of the migrants having their positions taken, 25% of all that they have gone through in detention have had their positions taken. 34% was their identification cards which are critical for how they work and survive in mexico after they are deported. so in the tucson area and some of the national organizations have very effectively raised this as an issue for the border patrol and they said okay let's take a look if this is an issue where it is happening in our organization. and i was invited into present our findings on the survey of over a thousand people that have gone through the detention and the deportation process and present our findings to document the level that people have lost

a hand in the process the questions that were given to me were why would we believe your data as border patrol clicks there is a question in terms of why would people tell you the truth and why should we believe what you've told us as the tru truth. it was almost like a phd exam because the question cannot how is this information gathered. did you have the questions so you could count the contradictions and check the misinterpretations that were presented in the interview and then what do you do with it? and it was those type of questions we ask our colleagues

and we viewers of manuscripts and we are asked by policymakers and in this case by the border patrol and it is appropriate and it goes back to what they raised earlier hoi raisedearlier how de think we know and how we can verify or justify what we present to the public and it is a big challenge. but the interesting thing about this experience this week was the border control is very concerned about people losing their documents as they were going to engage in the questions because they didn't have the data in their first date into the leave it and then they came out and had a discussion about how and where is this happening and implications for people that have lost their documents. who knows the next step in the documentdocuments but i only rat in the context of a the importance of good research and

engagement with the public in a way that they have access to the information into the public and the multiple public that we all belong to, the multiple public and raise that to our government to hopefully improve some aspects of the particular practices or policies. >> this is interesting because recently when the last conversation about the use of the resources and the taxpayer resources into the agencies has come to the attention of the border patrol as an agency is an agency that sometimes it's not very clear in terms of other metrics are served for their performance cost of it as an interest in the congressional members of congress who think about ways to create better metrics to measure how they are operating in the taxpayer's money is being used in the select links to this idea of how the research, the policy and

also even practices based on sound measures that are transparent i and how the fundig is being applied to a. maybe he got the future trend in terms of the creative side in terms of how -- what are the impacts of some of these are the border imaginary is if we could call them that? >> what is outrageous to me is that it has been here all along. and, you know, all the way back from when i was a kid reading edward abbey, they complained about it in the last -- west.

the issue that comes up and i'm delighted to hear about your interaction with. i've often said that they are phd's and i think the issue is one that is not easily or cheaply bought and that is the severity of what you report, the trustworthiness of the data if you want to call it that or your story and edition and frankly i don't trust a lot of them and i think the only way that one can really get a sense of the region and i'm not just talking about immigration of course. it's to do the due diligence

into the proper thought and study and experience. how can you write about it if you don't -- you don't go down for the weekend and take a stroll. i will tell you about the desert now. you can't. just anecdotally since there seems to be a bit of a theme, one of the bottles or is that always sticks with me about how i think unless you know you can do. and there was a sector agency that is no longer here that left the border and one of the great things to me is that people want to talk to me. i don't know how it has happened that i have done so many books in a brief used to go away so people keep coming to me and confess their border issues. [laughter] >> he came to talk to me and i was doing th a reading in chicao and then one of the largest and scariest human beings i've ever seen in my life showed up in the

back of the bookstore and i thought either it is a gang banger or some kind of cop. he came forward and pinned me with the border patrol service medallion. now this was in a very liberal bookstore so people didn't know if they were appalled or afraid. he turned around to the audience and he said if you cut this boy he believes forest green. i was in the back saying not really. [laughter] he told me this story and it's broken my heart ever since. i first read your books on the coffee breaks and so forth. shhe said my first night as an agent and introduction to the career.

they are begging to get a chance to survive and he said in that moment the first five minutes of my first i knew i was in the wrong job and i couldn't do it and his supervisory agent was with him and he said if that agent wasn't there watching my performance, i would have had to let her enter. i thought every preconception even ie held went out the window and flew away. it is in the due diligence and understanding of the region we live and come to write about. sometimes i just think it takes a lot of work. it's not cheap or easy. people want to tweak the ultimate answer about the border region but you can't do it.

>> i want to return to the researchers interviewed about the future in terms of also being a chat with our colleagues on the mexican side of the border in the book and through your career but i want to share some of that. what do you tell the audience about that and what kind of air force with a meaningful terms of engaging in the conversation and multilingual as well. >> just a couple things. first of all, as mentioned earlier, you know we really do have to reach out and find the literature and read the literature that the mexican colleagues are producing, so about that and speaking from a person that grew up with spanish tongue but you don't learn to

read or write it correctly until you are forced to. those of you that are familiar with spanish though the term but it is to be a person that is researching on the border there is actual work involved. it's not like any other researcher. if you want the job you read the mexican publication. you have extra work in translating and reading and collaborating and bought me tell you collaborating with mexicans on the border also has its own set of challenges. here we try to bring colleagues up to meet and we had so many

challenges in terms of the use of the funds if this is terrible because when we go to mexico they treat us perfectly fine. but when we invite them, then we have to go through the university system that says you can't feed them. you can't give them this. and it is very -- it's very difficult. so there is a challenge to get people together and they can feel welcome. so, this is an important aspect of the border regions. it is more work, but i think that information that is lost every day what wil people be deported those stories are gone. the stories are left in the unknown because we haven't been able to capture the stories. the ones on this sid the side oe border people are not that willing because the people that

are already here that is a challenge. as of the border research is challenging in and of itself. and it really creates this but once you have it done, then it's very rich. you have stories from that you never would have had if you have not really worked extra hard and have gone the extra mile to find some of those stories. we decided that we would donate the royalties of the professional migration institute pitches and organization that is apart from trying to do the research and also incorporates the students in training them and creating a new generation in terms of the future for this type of research. so they go to funding student's efforts to try to also replicate some of the research into the methods and the approaches that

we have assumed in the institute. >> i want to move slightly to the issue of u.s. policy because it comes up not only in the volume, but it points to the binational nature of the obligations, ethical obligations to deal with immigration. everyone in the room has this ethical obligation. and i just want to raise a couple figures that many of you have been reading about. but in 2012, 88,517 people who

are parents were removed from the united states. people who were and are parents. they left among other children when thousand 500 -- 1,052,000 u.s. citizen children. the total number of people deported that here were 409,000. 22% were the parents of u.s. children. i don't want to preference u.s. children that were born in the u.s. as citizens because they are part of mixed families that have many children that are not just u.s. citizens. bui want to kind of raise the

issue of the immigration policies in which case many parents are having their children as they are deported about it and put into childcare facilities and separated maybe forever or in other cases, u.s. citizen children are in mexico without being able to speak spanish and separated from their families and homes. i raised this as one window of the immigration policy that examination for which the alternatives do exist. so as we talk about the binational research and publication, we are talking about the multinational families that are being ripped apart as we sit in this room and attend a

book fare. and as i say this, i say it because i think that making these links between both the research that comes up to get the figures put together and pull their writings that tell the drama of the separations is so important that the u.s. public becomes highly sensitive to the drama that is taking place in the rich border led area but in chicago and in new york and los angeles. and if there are any snowbirds i'm not going to go on the rail on this. some of these issues are here that whabut what is in this bood of a let us try to learn more about the world that we live in

added that we are gifted to have an opportunity to enjoy but take the responsibility for how we can help other people's lives. >> now we have something for questions, so we have microphones in the aisles and you are welcome to read your questions and commentaries for the panelists. and i'm sure you will. >> i have a question for anna and scott. the funding that you brought up at the beginning was interesting. as we know, the legislature isn't wildly generous these days, and publishers will rightly say that reporting organizations are not rolling in money either. so where do you find the fun for this wonderfully important

research? what are the securities that you have? you step back and look at the goals and they want to see what you're publishing before you publish. what are the answers for people that want to do this kind of extra jackrabbit context. the -- background context. >> it is a shame that for those of us looking for the funding for the projects that we are being advised by those that help us with the grating to basically sanitize the language that we use for those proposals. anything that comes out as emigrant is an issue so they are telling us to basically take out as much of the language as

possible. we try to be creative about how we propose those research projects. for example, the issue of the methodology is kind of one of those mechanisms where we talk about the methodology and research or scientific methodology you could almost ignore it is being done on the border and it's going to somehow capture the immigration experience. when we talk to the nex took ths family that is another mechanism because it includes immigrants but then it also includes u.s. citizens so it is unfortunate. the only reason they brought this is one of the representatives seemed to have more forward thinking when we pitched the idea to her.

she thought that methodology was a good idea but unfortunately later on she was no longer there which i think is when we were advised they didn't like the project and we could do whatever we wanted spinnaker just a quick note. there are alternative funding sources. the colleagues grants in the foundation and i have to acknowledge that ford foundation that is supporting the ngos and a couple other foundations that stepped up to the plate specifically because they are aware of the politics of funding that have been ratcheted up. when i see the politics are funded, i refer to leading into

the sunni immigration reform and anda vestedreform andthe vestedg the private corporations that handle the detention centers making political contributions to the politicians this is a highly charged political environment so the question that was raised was most appropriate. >> thank you. >> as a person that's lived here for only 30 years which is less than half of my life, i wanted to thank the researchers further work that you're doing and to bring the issues to our attention and to louise i read every one of your books. i would say this is wonderful or this is horrible. what can i as a person that lives up in northern tucson and six there and reads about your research and reads your wonderful bucks, what can i do in the years i have left with

the families, where can i go and what can i do? >> buying more of my books. [laughter] spinnaker that is a done deal. >> that's very moving. i guess one of the things that worries me a little bit is our national polarization and that conservative people of good heart nobody believes it on my side of the conservatives have heart and liberal people. i am sick of all of that and i love the concept of us remembering that we are an american family and we need each other to do these things and there are so many people of good conscience on either side. there are so many groups.

robin hoover is probably retired that his group is still going out. there's the border that comes in and out and there are so many organizations that work. i think you can find a thousand ways to do things that make you happy. i always tell people that are upset about the situations into the various astonishing say political things that have beenn arizona for example if you don't like those things come about. get out there and vote and get everybody to vote. so there is no lack of opportunity to reach out with a good and open hearth to do what needs to be done. i've gotten really tired of pink and shiny and pet sitting me to

have bruce springsteen sometimes you just put a hand out and cut somebody and those are really valuable and important on both sides of the aisle in both political visions. it doesn't hurt to reach out and by the border patrol a cup of coffee. they feel kicked around. [laughter] >> thank you. >> i wanted to follow-up on both ofollow up on bothof these quese preface of the former border patrol. that is my question. it's a twist on what can we do as a kinetics researcher to help inform somehow or just help the

border reporting which is something that is near and dear to my heart and the question is here and amazing most people couldn't even get into so to some extent we are preaching to the choir. but the students that want to be either border researchers are border reporters what wisdom can i bring home to make this to give them some sense of hope that's what they want to do actually matters because i think that is the inspiration that any words of wisdom on that site would be great. whatever i can find one of the things that startles me in the unevenness of the reporting yes i think we need to go beyond to reach to the choir. most of us here living in the bubble are aware of the issues read about you go to new dork

and other papers. but you don't see it from the perspective of the border. i don't want to say that it's mainstream in terms of speaking about a reality that makes us feel as if we are out of reality area i had a person tell me while you know what you all are demanding and speaking from someone that belongs to an ngo, what you are demanding is really kind of out of the pale in terms of the number of immigration reform. you are outside. there are fringe groups in many ways. i had trouble really digesting that because okay i guess we are because we are on the border by -- [laughter] isn't that more reasoned this

perspective as a part of the mainstream conversation? iowi would basically to answer r questions they i would encourage more even this by including not only the voices of the portrait of the voices of the in the minority population as well which is also a missing voice. >> another project that was reflected in the book this is one of those in the border surveys and interpretations of people's experiences. at the university of arizona was eager to brin bring the south ae big press release when we did a preliminary report and they were very eager to get the newspapers throughout the country to learn

about the findings. and then two days before the press reports, the press conference they called and said no you have material in your report which we don't want brought out. at least that way to -- we said wait. you have to take all of the information on the abuse of migrants out of the report and bring it out. we said that censorship and they said not really. [laughter] we are not going to help you publicize it. this goes back to the issue of the students in journalism. we had some graduate students in journalism who were very much trying to bring material out to the press and had fabulous photographs and helped in the production of the reports so that it would be readable for the general audience. and they stepped in and i stood

there watching. they stepped in and organized their own press conference and they said we are not going to take things out and we are going to do things the university wasn't going to do and they ended up having a remarkable press conference that as a result would cover in the post and "the new york times" in 16 different countries the journalism students have skills to get this information out to a remarkable and broad audience i didn't know how to go about doing this, but i knew the information should get out so this kind of brought up the response to the question between journalism and the responsibility to share information accurately with a broad audience has an incredible role and it should be separated

in the social sciences and separated from the storytelling of the border but we need to have this kind of a collaboration between what looks like the competing fields and we do have an article about the journalism and coverage of migration in this book. >> it's very precise. what i have not heard about is the other nations that are on the same border in the native nations. was discovered? >> it was not covered.

we currently have another project that is on the border. as a percentage of strikes not only on this put on another project to get the other border because it is also a border unfortunately that is something that is not in this book but it is an additional challenge. thank you for your question. >> i want to thank the audience and please, immediately following the session reminder -- [applause] they will be signing books for the booster available in the signing area. please become a friend of the festival, free of charge to the literacy programs in the

community. on the mall or on the website and please join the book signing in a few minutes. thank you so much for being here. we appreciate your interest and again, thank you to the colleagues, luis >> this morning on c-span2, a discussion about health care provider networks and of the trade off between consumer choice and controlling costs. live coverage from the alliance for health reform begins at 8:30 a.m. eastern. and later first lady michelle obama and a laura bush speak at the u.s.-african leaders summit. you can watch it live at any eastern here on c-span2 and c-span.org.

>> is there a nonfiction author a book you like to see featured? send us an e-mail to booktv@c-span.org, tweet us that booktv or post on our wall, facebook.com/booktv. >> while congress is in recess c-span's primetime programming continues at 8 p.m. eastern tonight with the western concerted summit in denver. >> todd miller's book, trenton, examines how he is border patrol operates. mr. miller talked about the book at a bookstore in tempe, arizona. this is one hour. >> good evening. it's great to be here.

i remember it was, think was tha late 1990s, maybe even submitted 1990s when it wentt wa to changing and store on mill avenue. anging before my first trip to mexico. so i was looking for all kinds of books about mexico.. and i remember sitting in the chairs their reading and reading and reading i remember reading and reading because i always had a special part for changing hands. so a the border for chelation with homeland security this is my version became not a couple months ago but in my book looks like a kid not three years ago and it has traveled

around so i have spent getting around for the last couple of months but it is still a new book so it is still considered fresh off the press. not only about post 9/11 expansion of border patrol with the world that represents. looking at that expansion from many different angles in conceptual and goals. -- ankles. that is why i tell a lot of stories on big themes so in

that spirit of a play to begin tonight stock with some storytelling and i hope i can explain the book well i hope to talk about 20 or 30 minutes then leave some time for question and answer. one of the places i focus on looking at the southern u.s. border but the northern border and spent time in niagara falls, dominican republic, a detroit. but it's has anybody been down to the reservation here?

and one of my research trips to go down with an older from the nation with long gray hair and 60 years old wanted to show me the western side of the nation in what was happening. a very isolated and desolate border but in the middle of the saboorian desert. if you don't know about the and reservation is the second-largest in the united states. the size of the state of connecticut's. the only one baker is the navajo nation. but one of the critical aspects but the u.s. mexican

border where it cuts the average but was north of phoenix but those hundreds of miles into mexico. we went to the boundary line in it is where you can practically hear that snapping. so we look at that beautiful mountains in the distance with a beautiful landscaping and right at the borderline and it has been demarcated by the barriers. it is not the actual border wall but side by side by

side that mitt to stop vehicles from crossing the border but that 70 miles this is the wall or the barrier. so there are two places along call where there is the gate and this is where garcia wanted to show me. we stepped out of the car and garcia walks to the gate and opens it up. not because he wanted to go to mexico he just opened it up in this did not belong but for me looking at a sense of bewilderment and then the day of dread because i knew by opening

that gate it would attract to the u.s. border patrol so they must have seen it somehow. 12,000 notions' centers implanted under the ground the predator would be a drone over head with the powerful cameras? i don't know. maybe with the radar system that then drones had was reinventing radar technology ? one of those at the border patrol uses now is to look for border crossers at the

border security expo has technologies there is one that was of farrell who was hollowed out. there is a lot of perils around us so i was pretty convinced from david's actions may have been from something but i will get to border security alex played that war but lo and behold the first we're near the forward operating base they have been used in war scenarios of iraq and

afghanistan or that area is that the military wants to expand so now it is used in the borderline and and border patrol has two of them and several in arizona and probably dozens along the u.s. mexico beyond trees so when we turn around we see it is a rudimentary station with the antenna it looks pretty fast with a cloud of dust we know what is about to happen. the will get you but first i want to ask a couple of questions.

does anybody know how many border patrol there was in the 1990's? does anybody know when it was formed? 1924. if you think about it through that time there was no border patrol. there were different agencies that may have dug hole a little bit but 1924 it was about to under 1,000 agents mostly in the north. then through 1998 it went from 1,000 of the 4,000 agents. then the growth from their early 1990's through now does anybody know now?

21,000 people say it is closer 22 were 23,000. it is five times the size that was in the early 1890's '' we see now is the product of unprecedented growth there has not been so many in the history of the united states. with customs a.m. border protections is part of the department of homeland security with all of the restructuring happening in post 9/11 era. so then is 60,000 also those customs agents across the border but also the air and marine division 60,000

people why is that significant? it is double the size of ecuador almost like a domestic force. is gigantic we have never seen the likes of it before. the budget of the budget for immigration enforcement is $18 billion why is that significant? that number is more than all federal law-enforcement agencies combined. as well as u.s. marshals and

they combine. customs border protection and a couple other agencies get $18 billion. that shows the priority this is given by the u.s. government. looking at this expansion the alluded to earlier with the surveillance cameras is the border security expo. anybody familiar with that? i remember you. [laughter] and capt. does an annual event next year you may want to head out there that happens usually in march it

is the exposition and conference with border protection along with 120 different companies they hope to sell their wares at the department of romance security becausenc

camera. i talk to vendors of era stat before, and once said, you know he pointed to the surveillance blimp across the room and he said i can read the words on your notebook. i said no way. uk david ricci said i can. now you can't. you i can do to we started manipulating the camera, zoomed in on my words and their that appeared on this monitor right next to them. that's the kind of technology we are looking and. last year when i went to the expo there was a tower in the middle of the convention all come right in the kind of like a masterpiece of the show. i walked over to the tower just to go up to the top because

there was a look out area where you could see the entire convention center with all the come over 100 vendors. i'm walking up the stairs and to my left inside there's a picture of this wall, of his tower being engulfed by a fireball. and it turns out it's an anti-ballistic power. as i went up to the top i would really? is that's what's happening on the border? who's been to the border? either fire balls hitting the border? that's the kind of bands that you see. well, this could happen on the border and you need this product. one of the vendors i talked with for quite a while was a vendor from a small company in tucson, and he's selling a product called freedom on the move. he was very vivid in his

description of what freedom on the move would be used for. freedom on the move was a camera and will be put in the back of the truck bed and it's attached to amassed. with an xbox controller, an xbox controller you can raise the mast, lower the mast so the camera can see around it and he described what it would be used for. he described a situation on the border in a very colorful way. he described, for example, the borderline as a line of scrimmage like a football game. so the line of scrimmage, here's the line of scrimmage, like a football game, border crosses usually cross that line of scrimmage undetected. why would across the line of scrimmage undetected? the mission of the is border patrol since the 1990s has been to concentrate agents, expansion of agents we're talking about, the bigger and bigger budgets that are always growing and the technologies in

urban areas, places of our traditional crossing places for. people. so it's called, the policy is called prevention by deterrent. so the idea was that peoplellede unable to cross in traditional places such as nogales, such as san diego, such as el paso, such as brownsville, if they can'tier cross in the traditional crossing places they will be funneled into places that were too dangerous, desolate, or into p people would not dare to cross these areas but it would be a natural barrier. to cross in th. so people still kept coming and they funnel the round into where david garcia and i were staying with the very isolated region we were

standing there in june it was 110 degrees. it with freedom on the move not when you cross the border but he had a water bottle the last while freedom on the move. one, two, three, 10, 12, 15, is it was a lot. to carry water across the desert people run out of food all the time. that is where people are the weakest.

and then to sleep in to encourage people when they're easy to capture. even though my tag said journalist he was talking as if somebody who might buy his products. why wouldn't he? he was excited about the products it is coming into a crisis to solve the problem. it is a market that is growing. the border security market is growing at the 5% clip in with the global market there is a report with projections

called the border security market with an unprecedented growth period. in video cameras in 2012 was a $12 billion industry. and video cameras like freedom on the move is expected to capture 3.4 trillion video hours in one year. i did the math that is 340 million years of video footage in one year. three under 40 million years. it is a booming market. even if i am a journalist and it makes sense. it is a growing market and

at the end and at this point was made to be over and over icahn by different vendors. they were selling exclusively to the military. button to repurchase the technology and then he said we are bringing the battlefield to the border. >> what we saw when david garcia and i turned round in the vehicle with the dust coming at us we drove we knew what would happen and

it turns out it was the border patrol vehicle was coming very fast. when it came to us so was sliding with the sirens blaring to agents rushed out one agent went to the back and another came to the driver's side but just to know i interviewed dozens and dozens of border patrol agents. i interviewed different stages talking to public information officers. and also of talking to the agents on the side.

into keep with the public-relations mission aerosol whole wide range of different opinions they took me into their homes and take me out to dinner and sat with me in a cafe and let me record them to active dissent. one agent interviewed multiple times he said he would not retire soon then he would write his own book and it would be skating. there is some of the viewpoints of different agents.

and i suspected he might be a new agent talking about the expansion 2005 through 2009 border patrol live from 10,000 to 20,000 agents it doubled in size meaning fact tens of people are hired. their recruitment was done all over the country and for him we suspected he might be of that but he did seem a little bit hyped up to the driver's side.

so what are you doing there? so i responded that we're looking at the border because at the time i was living in the york and said i am a journalist from new york. hoping that would work but it didn't. [laughter] so he asked how we knew each other in he said to have lots of friends in new york? so they went back and forth. david garcia asked for his identification which i found ironic. we had camped the night before and it is 10 miles

away from where we're were. in the end thousands of years of his family has been there but u.s. kim is identification whether he belongs in this place or not. agent looks at it for a long time long enough that finally he handed that identification card back how do you know, each other again? so it was back-and-forth and one thing about it is if you look at the nation with the

expansion in the 1990's there is hardly a border patrol presents it is a border area. they didn't have any stations. so that transformation that we are seeing actually fewer interested just go down there on a saturday it is literally surrounded. if you go to the tucson station there is about 60

agents there to the north but then west of the nation there is the new station state of the large green station it uses solar energy is the stone's throw away from the boundary lines and then leaving a the nation is the center to the east if you go north to have the checkpoint there are checkpoints everywhere you go.